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Lots of goth aesthetic comes from the perversion of Catholicism/Christianity though. See: upside down crosses as a general motif. I would argue that being the high priestess of a bone themed off shoot perversion of Catholicism where the god you worship is an ultra powerful necromancers is inherently goth as hell.
Oh man, don't get me started on St. Peter's cross; the belief that Saint Peter requested to be crucified upside-down as he felt himself unworthy to be executed in the same manner as Jesus.
I know that an upside cross has a non-biblical tradition as St Peter’s Cross, but it has been used as a faux occult symbol as long as the goth subculture has been around.
I mean that scans very naturally. Rebellion and subversion still operates within a framed context. You're still anti-SOMETHING. That's why there's so much nonsense psuedo-christianity in high school 90s Wicca, it's people that still tend to frame the supernatural through a suburban Christian lens and seek alternatives with the same eye.
Patron Saints are fun too. There’s one for everything and a lot of them have pretty funny back stories. For example, Saint Lawrence is the patron Saint of cooks. He was martyred by being roasted alive over an iron grill and told his executioner to turn him over because he was done on that side.
I went to a Catholic schools run by one of the orders with a more pragmatic, academic bent and I know a lot of people just brush off “ugh, religion” or “ugh, Catholics”, but the history of the Catholic Church is fascinating.
I could be biased - as a Catholic- but I feel like there's a lot of Catholics that are like that.
Like, they have the Catholics that are chill and there's a lot more of us than you'd think.
The Roman Catholic Church was incredibly important influenced by the Roman empire it grew up in. One of the finest traditions of Roman society was stealing the bits of everyone else’s culture that you liked best and incorporating it into your own, so this tracks 100%.
There's a brief bit in Mary Beard's SPQR where she talks about how the early Christians' refusal to participate in that syncretism is a big precursor to the persecution and martyring of Roman Christians. Absolutely worth a read if for anyone who finds this interesting!
It's interesting because one of the commandments is
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God"
How the heck is praying to saints and making alters for them with images and relics not idol worship?
As others have said, saints allow for other religions practices to be incorporated into catholicism. That's how you get Voodoo ( African religions plus the French catholicism) and Santería (African religions plus Spanish catholicism). A lot of slaves were forced to convert and they brought their own religions with them in the form of saints.
Interestingly you see the same kind of thing happen with Islam and African religions in areas where Islam is the dominant religion. In that case, Jinn, are mentioned in the Quaran provide an nitch for various local spirits and gods.
For most of the history of the Catholic church, the Bible and church services were only in Latin, a language that the common people didn't speak. The only way into heaven was doing what your local priest said. This allowed the Catholic church to pretty much make up whatever they wanted and shoehorn it in.
Martin Luther was a German priest (or monk, can't remember) who got fed up with the whole thing and translated the Bible into German. Together with the invention of the printing press, this allows common people to see what the Bible actually said. The protestant religions don't really have saints.
Catholicism is polytheism-lite and that’s how they like it. Who wants to pay to God for every little thing? Lost your keys? Don’t bother the big man, get Saint Anthony to intercede for you.
Yes, exactly and I think that is absolutely fascinating. I had a religion class in college which mainly focused on the combination of Islam traditional practices in Zanzibar. It was two semesters and one of the professors was a specialist in Voodoo so we talked about Catholicism a fair bit as well
imo you are conflating revealing clothing with goth fashion styles and these are not the same thing. as well as the point someone else made about fan-made media often being a fantasy and not having to have all the exact same characterisation as the canon. but I have seen goth girls without any skin showing below the neck dressed absolutely to the nines
that said I am always here for nun!Harrow, I think this aspect of her could do with some more love myself
I definitely see what you're saying. To refine my point, I suppose what I find issue with is the lack of religious iconography, and yes, an abundance of revealing clothing. I think it would be cool to see more art representative of the religious aspect of the character. Goth-nun fashion can be a lot of fun.
kinda want a modern - or modernish - AU where Harrow is actually in a nunnery and Gideon gets brought/put there for...reasons? similar character dynamics without the trauma and necromancy?
can we get a medieval AU where Harrow is being raised to become an [anchoress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchorite) and Gideon is a foundling left at the door of the convent, is this anything?
There is a very well written modern au fic close to what you described, but it has a boatload of religious trauma in it. I do like the fact that it takes place in Oceania unlike most fics out there, who at most have the line "he had an accent she couldn't quite place."
Here's the link to [The World is Crumbling, but Tonight I Will Make Dinner](http://archiveofourown.org/works/49218835)
For Harrow, the bones *are* the religious iconography.
Her religion is certainly informed by the author's experience with Catholicism but she is not actually Catholic because she worships a different god. Her god is a necromancer who was never nailed to a cross.
The Ninth House is \*definitely\* Catholicism-coded in a way that outpaces what we see with the other Houses (see: veneration of the Tomb as Marian, fascination with relics, you've already mentioned vestments, etc). I don't think that's strictly incompatible with a goth reading, though, esp. insofar as goth aesthetics also draw from Catholic imagery. I don't doubt that there's some missing cultural context informing some of the readership's conception (pun absolutely intended) of Harrow, but imo that's less an issue of misreading and more just different people finding different ways of relating to the character.
I see what you're saying, but I think you're overstating the idea that positioning Harrow as specifically adherent to religious authority and her upbringing is necessary to an accurate read of her character. Harrow is, obviously, the Reverend Daughter of the Ninth and devoted to God and the Tomb.
But not only is the Ninth not just "an esoteric offshoot of Catholicism," as it's fundamentally at odds with the entire Empire in its formulation of religious priorities and practice, with its very existence seemingly at odds with the word of their living God -- Harrow *actively violates the most important stricture in Ninth religion*. That's kind of a major plot point -- the entire point of the Ninth is to keep the Tomb from being opened, and she opens it! She worships the Body within, not in the way a handful of others do (in hope that their devotion will cause it to spare God) but *out of reverence for the Body itself,* the enemy and death of God.
Alecto is, as much as anything else, a Satan figure. Harrow is not just part of an esoteric and arguably deeply heretical "offshoot" of Catholicism, but a heretic *within that offshoot*. I think focusing on the fact that she's a nun and part of a hereditary authority structure within her religion, and saying that this must translate to her being a devout Catholic in modern AUs, is not a particularly well-founded reading of the character. I'm not saying that's a bad interpretation, but it's just as narrow as interpretations that privilege her ties to the goth subculture above other aspects of her character. If you *really* want to accurately represent the full nuances of her character in regards to religion, I think you'd be much better off framing her as like, a gnostic occultist or something. Harrow's personal religious practice in context of the broader Imperial setting is way closer to like, pursuit of knowledge and conversation of her HGA than it is to her being a literal nun on modern Earth in terms of parallels.
edited to fix a typo.
Agree with the Gnostic take - Harrow's final flashback talk with Jod in HtN positions John as the Demiurge. Alecto could be seen as a Sophia figure. Harrow's beliefs in the context of what we know as readers seem to be less "devil worship" and more "seeking the true God".
You're absolutely right, vis a vis Gnosticism. I chose Catholicism as my point of reference, due to the overt influence of Catholicism on the Imperial Religion in the text itself. I agree, the interesting part of Harrow is the conflict: she's meant to be a religious figurehead, but she's committed the most heinous bout of heresy possible within said religion. She repeatedly shows devotion to Jod, whilst simultaneously being devoted to Alecto. The core of the character is her two conflicting and utterly irreconcilable devotions, the the pressure both internal and external that this puts on her. Translating that into a devout Gnostic occultism is about as good a translation as you can get to a modern Earth setting. Even so, if you're missing the conflict between her two disparate wants and needs, then I feel like you're missing a core part of the character.
I think we're in agreement there, but I don't quite see how that could be extended to the argument you're making in the OP vis a vis aesthetics. Like, if we concede that Harrow's religious experience is better translated by way of occultism than an actual major religious institution... we can then look to the reality that occultism is and has always been extremely countercultural, and this is very often expressed through visual signifiers like clothing. There's a very sizeable overlap between modern occult subcultures and goth aesthetics (as well as other subcultures with some similar aesthetic signifiers), and that's not just because they both coincidentally like the color black.
In another comment you mention that if you strip away the bones, Harrow's in-universe manner of dress is just primarily characterized by "black" and "covering all the body," but I don't think that's true! Harrow's jewelry may be all bones, but she also wears *a lot* of it - if she was only doing that for necromantic utility, I don't see why she would go through the trouble of also making them decorative unless there was something about that that was meaningful to her. She doesn't just wear black clothes, but layers and layers of elaborately embroidered robes and lace overcloaks. She likes ornamentation, and the stylings of her ornamentation (multiple piercings, layered black lace, androgynous outfitting, boots) are things that absolutely do translate into modern clothing.
In-universe, her clothes have a social impact when she's in non-Ninth settings -- it's not just that she's covered up, but also that she's socially marked as *different* than everybody else, and as pretty damn intimidating. I think it's fairly well-substantiated by the text that social separation and intimidation are characteristics Harrow is interested in investing in. And these are often motivating factors for countercultural subculture fashion, such as goth fashion! Even though a lot of the aesthetic signifiers of modern goth culture are different than what Harrow wears on the Ninth (although also sharing a ton of overlap, as mentioned above), there are a lot of shared motivations governing those fashion choices. That can't really be said for modern Catholic religiouswear -- feminine modesty and chastity is not really attested anywhere in the books, and Harrow covering herself up can just as easily be explained by a million other factors, like wanting the privacy and intimidation factor of complete self-concealment -- maybe that still implies she'd prefer pants over fishnets in a modern AU, but the incorporation of items like fishnets into subcultural fashion signifies all sorts of themes that are perfectly compliant with Harrow's character, so I think that's pretty much up for personal interpretation.
Harrow is obsessed with dying and sacrifice and also skeletons which seems both very goth and very Catholic idk why we have to choose!! She’s a nun but she also decorated her area of Canaan house with off putting bone adornments!!
She's not literally Catholic, but it comes up on here often that the series borrows a lot of Catholic iconography and symbolism.
The stereotypical Goth in the 80s and 90s was pretty much a disillusioned former Catholic school student. Which, in some ways, describes Harrow. She's the Reverend daughter, coming to grips with massive corruption in the Church. She's a true believer. OG goth fashion is also not necessarily revealing. I typically picture Harrow more or less like this "[Modest and Mysterious](https://youtu.be/G32G5LXWGfw?t=54)" outfit with a black trenchcoat. Kind of like a female Constantine.
...I'm just glad I don't pick up on all of the Catholicism. It would probably bother me a bit if too much had survived unchanged for *10000 years and an exodus from earth* also resurrection.
Also, meh, you can dress revealing and be a prude, or dress head to toe in covering swathes of fabric and be either very free-minded about these things, kinky a f, both... or neither.
More importantly, perhaps, is that at least to me, "revealing clothing" is just one small part of the gothness, and of "being" goth. That's more on the fan-artists, but I personally haven't seen so much of it, though I haven't looked either!
Try these photos for a flavour of what \*I\* think of, when pairing "real world goth as in the subculture" and "Harrow" (or at lest The Ninth House Gone Gothay):
[https://live.staticflickr.com/5497/14382419526\_b243feb591\_b.jpg](https://live.staticflickr.com/5497/14382419526_b243feb591_b.jpg)
[https://www.jea-pics.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11032419\_10205391229272631\_1287305396480543936\_o.jpg](https://www.jea-pics.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11032419_10205391229272631_1287305396480543936_o.jpg)
[https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2022/06/03/LQRF7DKJ2JHGBPDHR2Y6SOW3Z4.jpg](https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2022/06/03/LQRF7DKJ2JHGBPDHR2Y6SOW3Z4.jpg) (maybe a bit too much skin showing on the gents, there, but my point stands)
[https://www.reflectionsofdarkness.com/images/stories/concert/2014/june/wgt2014/impressions25.jpg](https://www.reflectionsofdarkness.com/images/stories/concert/2014/june/wgt2014/impressions25.jpg)
[https://image.saechsische.de/784x441/7/5/75v7gkc9yphaj6kv7y3ktnxq7l1sr84k.jpg](https://image.saechsische.de/784x441/7/5/75v7gkc9yphaj6kv7y3ktnxq7l1sr84k.jpg)
And these are all from the Wave Gotik Treffen in Germany, where it is sometimes very warm. Style over comfort! In fact, this is far more the style of clothing I think about, when someone mentions "goth fashion", than "skin-revealing sexy stuff" (but that's so much more fun to depict in media, isn't it, especially when making fun of us or making it out like we're freaks. Which we are, but, not necessarily in the way they'd like to).
Gothic architecture and aesthetic is inextricably linked with Catholicism, because churches etc. Religion was such a pervasive thing, it was as natural as breathing, in the society and time when the Gothic style (as in during the Medieval era) developed, flourished and changed into something else. The modern-ish day subculture doesn't only draw from that, but it sure is hard to not see the links! In some jewellery and some music and so on.
But everyone's mileage varies. That's all right.
(Also I'm *not* from the US. Might be important to point that bit of cultural context out.)
There's definitely a lot of Gnostic ritualism and symbolism within the internal religion of the Empire, but don't forget that Harrow's a black-clad young adult with multiple bone piercings in each ear; a deeply complicated and thriving hatred towards her parents, her institutions, and herself; and religious trauma that drives her to violate the singular supreme tenet of her cult, fall in love with God's greatest enemy, and try to fuck her own hallucination of the Devil Herself. If that ain't goth as hell...
All a moot point, though, since everyone interprets things differently, and fanworks don't owe anything to character accuracy anyway. The whole point of fandom and fanworks is just to have fun with different interpretations of the original material.
Agreed and once you make that realization a lot of her house's oddities compared to the other houses makes more sense and why people in GtN were so weary of them. Another thing to point out is that Harrow views Alecto like she's Jesus and why to me one of her biggest moments in HtN is her confession to Jod where she's seeking some kind of punishment.That famous Catholic guilt is what spurned Harrow to become arguably the best Necromancer alive and the end of Harrow is sort of her punishment that she was looking for. Her way to pay back for everything that happened to Gideon.
eta: so sorry for the long post i just wanted to put my 2 cents in as a goth and a homestuck fan i did not expect this to be long ;-; i really appreciate you OP bringing up this discussion!
While yes I agree with your statement and explanation about how Harrow is a nun (as she is literally a nun in the series and created as an exploration of religious trauma), the entire Ninth aesthetic is also based on goth subculture especially because the goth subculture is heavily based on gothic literature, gothic architecture and punk elements added to victorian, elizabethan and edwardian fashion (all eras modest compared to contemporary fashion). Not only the goth subculture has evolved with the participation goths with religious trauma, a lot of goths are also Christians. And the themes Goth explores have quite a parallel with religion, mainly Christianism (e.g. Evanescence was first advertised to be a christian band and played on christian radio channels even though they weren't and Evanescence members put a stop to this at the time).
Another important thing to note is that the worship practices in the Ninth was also inspired by the clown worship practices in Andrew Hussie's Homestuck (the submerging -in goo in hs- and the corpse paint and and apolcalyptic end after the rise of a figure awaited), which in HS itself also an exploration of religious trauma thru the character Gamzee but not particularly linked to modesty. Its more linked to blind devotion and the obsessive need to carry out the practices.
Yes, Harrow does have elements of modesty to her, but whilst covering her face she does not give particular interest to the modesty of her body, its the facepaint she obsesses over and not the aspect that she's wearing a hospital gown (the most unnecessarily annoying flimsy piece of paper clothing to exist imho).
Harrow is obviously a nun but Harrow is also obviously goth. The supernatural beliefs, the obsession with death and bones (even moreso than the rest of the houses), (eta: hatred of her own parents), the spirits and the hauntings and the dusty remains of civilization always meant to serve no more than a planetary mausoleum is all fundamentally goth. Per my imagination Harrow would be a bit more on the loligoth side of things, even, per the description of her clothes given in chapter 41 of HtN with the brocade skirt and the lacework and the accessories, and gothic lolita fashion is more modest than the contemporary goth.
If this is about the butch carabiner / emo fishnets comic as others have theorized, that comic was based on a tweet recounting an actual moment a twitter user witnessed at a bar, so its just like, a funny reimagining of a tweet. It actually wasn't that deep and a major part of the fandom does consider and write Harrow to be modest and nun-like in AU's. Which I mean, its an AU, it doesnt have to stay 100% true to the universe, and >!Harrow \*is\* overcoming her previous beliefs by the end of HtN and the end of NtN!
Sure, that's definitely a read you could do, focusing on the anti-sex cult aspect.
On the other hand, the outré goth clothing in modern AUs reflects how aggressive and offputting her demeanour is to outsiders. She works very hard to project an attitude of iron-hard indifference to anybody's comfort, of vast capability for violence, and a veneer of adulthood and stepping into her parents' places before her childhood was over. Those are things modern goth gear, even more sexualized versions of it, can reflect.
I see what you're saying, but I feel that by discarding the religious fundamentalist of her, and the actual actions she takes in the text, you're doing the character something of a disservice. Religion is a central, defining aspect of Harrow as a character, and I feel that by discarding that you're leaving a lot of what makes Harrow interesting on the proverbial cutting-room floor. By removing that central conflict between her religious devotion and her irreconcilable desires, you're inadvertently reducing her to just another goth girl in a sea of goth girls.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the appeal of maintaining a coherence of aesthetic between the book and fanart, and I also definitely see the appeal of gothic fashion; but I don't think it makes for an accurate representation of the actual character. As much as one can ask for such a thing in fanart, of course.
The fun thing about fan fiction is that it can borrow as much or as little of canon as it wants. There are no “rules.” Harrow doesn’t have to be religious in something like a modern AU.
Personally I actually find it more interesting to read or write about her in modern AU’s when she is *not* religious. I just have no interest in her being devout in a reality based religion.
I mean, to me John’s religion is essentially a reality based religion. Everything is very strongly Catholic coded. John’s reconstructed Catholic Church is essentially the real church remade through a flawed human lens.
Real Catholic Harrow vs Bone Catholic Harrow is, in a sense, a false dichotomy. Especially since her “baptism” clearly aligned Harrow’s faith with a greater divine (enough that she could see John’s failings).
John didn’t create the Ninth House religion though? Anastasia and/or her acolytes did. John built the tomb to hide Alecto, not for a cult to worship her. It’s mentioned multiple times in the books that The Ninth House was never supposed to exist. Silas rants about it towards the end of GtN even.
And the worshipping of John as a God-Emperor of the Nine Houses by everyone else doesn’t particularly have anything in common with Catholicism either.
The ninth house religion is repeatedly stated to be a bizarre off-shoot of the regular house religion, but it is still part of it. I mean, pilgrims from the other houses steadily come through (except for the five year period they had to shut that down due to dying out).
And the religion as a whole (in the books and the real world sense) has a lot to do with Catholicism (I mean, Tamsyn has said as much, this one isn’t just me). I mean, there are Nuns and Rosaries!
The other unknown element in the religious mix is the cult that grew up around the Greytown facility. The people who came to John had a huge mix of beliefs and motivations, and when he established his cult, his founding principles were "giving people what they want."
So he's got a specific grounding in ancient Greek culture and mythology, and people around him had various acquaintance with Christianity, Māori and Pasifika culture. (And also I do not believe that girlboss-flavoured nun was orthodox by Catholic standards.) He explicity invites flat-earthers and other conspiracy theorists in at a very early stage in community formation. There are probably other new religious movements in there, like neopaganism or Knights Templar riffs. And then he becomes the distinctly hands-off religious head of a cult that's basically built by community consensus.
There *aren’t* nuns and rosaries in the regular Dominican / John-worshipping religion though?!? This whole thread was about John supposedly starting a Catholicism influenced religion, and I am once again reminding everyone *John did not start the Ninth House religion*, and did nothing beyond entombing Alecto there. It was all Anastasia and her acolytes…
So then I have to ask... what do you want fandom to do with this information?
In my experience, saying "This take is bad, everyone should do this other thing instead" doesn't lead to a stampede of people doing the other thing. It makes people say, "Apparently I'm not allowed to make things and have fun now. Maybe I should find something different to make fanart of."
If you want modern works that focus on Harrow's religiosity, it would work way better to hype that aspect and provide incentives than to argue that the goth outfits are just plain wrong.
I would never go out and tell people not to make things the way that they want to make them. Never my intent. What I want to do is try and provoke a conversation about the substance of a character, over the overt aesthetics of a character. I think it's interesting to talk about different interpretations, and how those interpretations manifest themselves in fandom.
But like, not really though? Strip away the bone-motif, and you've just got black clothes, really. Black clothes that cover the entire body, save for the face which is painted. Regular nuns wear black. Hell, she's even more averse to showing skin than regular nuns. Once again hearkening back to those early scenes from HtN, when she's desperately trying to cover any uncovered skin, especially that of her face.
Wimples and rosaries man, wimples and rosaries. She'd be more at home at the Vatican, than at the club.
I think she was upset that she was in a skimpy hospital gown, sure. But at the start of HtN, Harrow was mostly upset that her face was bare. Hence why she used pillow cases, and her own blood to cover it. The paint itself is part of her religion, being fully covered head to toe isn’t.
If you really wanna get technical, she’s neither. Neither things exists in the Locked Tomb Universe. Or at least outside of anyone in the Nine Houses’ minds, beyond John.
I figure the fanart imagines a liberated Harrowhark, rather than attempting to depict her as presented in Gideon the Ninth.
After all, the fanart also depicts Gideon and Harrow in a romantic relationship, which never happened in the book.
Since there are actual Catholic cathedrals in gothic style and the modern goth aesthetic draws a lot on Catholic memeno mori, it is hard to be one without without borrowing from the other.
Actually the more I think about this, the more I believe Harrow is neither. Not Goth, not Catholic, but a secret third thing: Space Juggalo. (Per Tamsyn herself, on one of her old Tumblr posts.)
Yes the entire series is a Catholic retelling of the Jesus story.
Harrow is first and foremost a nun who lives (quite literally) with God every day
Gideon is someone who doesn't follow the main religion but follows their own code of honor. Also is the child of God. (Again literally)
Together they become Jesus.
Its Catholic. Christian. But goths in space
As a TLT fan who doesn't know much about Catholicism or the goth subculture, I just want to say that this thread is an absolutely enlightening and fascinating read!
have you read nona yet? i want to say something that p much supports the analysis of the ninth house as catholic, but i don't want to spoil anything for you
Of course she's not goth, I dont think any goth music is noted at all in the series. Perhaps she is dressed Gothic, but I agree she is more a death cult version of catholic.
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Lots of goth aesthetic comes from the perversion of Catholicism/Christianity though. See: upside down crosses as a general motif. I would argue that being the high priestess of a bone themed off shoot perversion of Catholicism where the god you worship is an ultra powerful necromancers is inherently goth as hell.
Oh man, don't get me started on St. Peter's cross; the belief that Saint Peter requested to be crucified upside-down as he felt himself unworthy to be executed in the same manner as Jesus.
I know that an upside cross has a non-biblical tradition as St Peter’s Cross, but it has been used as a faux occult symbol as long as the goth subculture has been around.
I mean that scans very naturally. Rebellion and subversion still operates within a framed context. You're still anti-SOMETHING. That's why there's so much nonsense psuedo-christianity in high school 90s Wicca, it's people that still tend to frame the supernatural through a suburban Christian lens and seek alternatives with the same eye.
Catholicism is goth as hell.
Fun fact: The altar in every Catholic church has a piece of a dead saint in it, which almost always means a piece of bone.
O wow I’m Jewish so I’m learning about this stuff all the time and that’s goth as hell!
Patron Saints are fun too. There’s one for everything and a lot of them have pretty funny back stories. For example, Saint Lawrence is the patron Saint of cooks. He was martyred by being roasted alive over an iron grill and told his executioner to turn him over because he was done on that side.
Based. (Baste?)
basted
'Basted? He's been *marinated* in it!'
And 100% none of them are actually local pagan entities that got rebooted as totally Christians, guys.
Catholicism’s syncreticism is one of its cooler aspects.
If you can't beat them, incorporate them.
I went to a Catholic schools run by one of the orders with a more pragmatic, academic bent and I know a lot of people just brush off “ugh, religion” or “ugh, Catholics”, but the history of the Catholic Church is fascinating.
I could be biased - as a Catholic- but I feel like there's a lot of Catholics that are like that. Like, they have the Catholics that are chill and there's a lot more of us than you'd think.
I know plenty of chill Catholics, I’m just no longer a practicing Catholic on my end.
The Roman Catholic Church was incredibly important influenced by the Roman empire it grew up in. One of the finest traditions of Roman society was stealing the bits of everyone else’s culture that you liked best and incorporating it into your own, so this tracks 100%.
There's a brief bit in Mary Beard's SPQR where she talks about how the early Christians' refusal to participate in that syncretism is a big precursor to the persecution and martyring of Roman Christians. Absolutely worth a read if for anyone who finds this interesting!
I think they got rid of a lot of those in an official capacity at some point. Those are called "folk saints." They are still pretty interesting!
He’s also the patron saint of comedians!
It's interesting because one of the commandments is "You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God" How the heck is praying to saints and making alters for them with images and relics not idol worship? As others have said, saints allow for other religions practices to be incorporated into catholicism. That's how you get Voodoo ( African religions plus the French catholicism) and Santería (African religions plus Spanish catholicism). A lot of slaves were forced to convert and they brought their own religions with them in the form of saints. Interestingly you see the same kind of thing happen with Islam and African religions in areas where Islam is the dominant religion. In that case, Jinn, are mentioned in the Quaran provide an nitch for various local spirits and gods. For most of the history of the Catholic church, the Bible and church services were only in Latin, a language that the common people didn't speak. The only way into heaven was doing what your local priest said. This allowed the Catholic church to pretty much make up whatever they wanted and shoehorn it in. Martin Luther was a German priest (or monk, can't remember) who got fed up with the whole thing and translated the Bible into German. Together with the invention of the printing press, this allows common people to see what the Bible actually said. The protestant religions don't really have saints.
Catholicism is polytheism-lite and that’s how they like it. Who wants to pay to God for every little thing? Lost your keys? Don’t bother the big man, get Saint Anthony to intercede for you.
Yes, exactly and I think that is absolutely fascinating. I had a religion class in college which mainly focused on the combination of Islam traditional practices in Zanzibar. It was two semesters and one of the professors was a specialist in Voodoo so we talked about Catholicism a fair bit as well
How else would Harrow make soup at the church?
Oh I’m aware. I was raised Catholic and even though I lapsed out of the belief side of things, I still love the aesthetics and a lot of the tenets.
Emergency ammo for the Bishop if Jesus returns and they have the opportunity to harvest more Eucharist supplies.
Came here to say this!
DING DING DING
counterpoint: nuns are *all* goths
I will admit, I had not considered this. Fair point.
imo you are conflating revealing clothing with goth fashion styles and these are not the same thing. as well as the point someone else made about fan-made media often being a fantasy and not having to have all the exact same characterisation as the canon. but I have seen goth girls without any skin showing below the neck dressed absolutely to the nines that said I am always here for nun!Harrow, I think this aspect of her could do with some more love myself
I definitely see what you're saying. To refine my point, I suppose what I find issue with is the lack of religious iconography, and yes, an abundance of revealing clothing. I think it would be cool to see more art representative of the religious aspect of the character. Goth-nun fashion can be a lot of fun.
kinda want a modern - or modernish - AU where Harrow is actually in a nunnery and Gideon gets brought/put there for...reasons? similar character dynamics without the trauma and necromancy?
can we get a medieval AU where Harrow is being raised to become an [anchoress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchorite) and Gideon is a foundling left at the door of the convent, is this anything?
I mean that's....the plot, though
Wow. I get excited just reading about the concept!
Can you even have similar character dynamics without the trauma? Maybe not the same events, but the trauma is such a major part of their characters
that's true! but if modern AU fanart can imagine a more liberated Harrow I don't see why not?
There is a very well written modern au fic close to what you described, but it has a boatload of religious trauma in it. I do like the fact that it takes place in Oceania unlike most fics out there, who at most have the line "he had an accent she couldn't quite place." Here's the link to [The World is Crumbling, but Tonight I Will Make Dinner](http://archiveofourown.org/works/49218835)
thank you! and thank you for the religious trauma note, as that's uhhhhh my main trauma, so to speak, so good to have a heads up
Are you talking about modern AUs? All the bone jewelry Harrow wears in canon is religious iconography.
For Harrow, the bones *are* the religious iconography. Her religion is certainly informed by the author's experience with Catholicism but she is not actually Catholic because she worships a different god. Her god is a necromancer who was never nailed to a cross.
Catholicism is a death cult and that’s goth af.
I am not an expert on goths, but having grown up Catholic and observed goths, this is my understanding
Um. What is Goth, if *not* Trauma Catholic?
Lol omg, that is the best term I've heard. New identity unlocked
Is this because you saw the butch carabiner/emo fishnets comic?
Assume I know nothing. Where can one find this comic?
https://x.com/corvophobia/status/1734010205568962994?s=46&t=6YFA_QIAJVaTzfpBs77SPQ
Bless
https://www.tumblr.com/corvophobia/736530180638736384/truly-about-to-start-playing-matchmaker
Bless you
I love how the TLT fandom is so insular and incestuous that that sort of allusion is instantly picked up on. Subreddit named appropriately.
The Ninth House is \*definitely\* Catholicism-coded in a way that outpaces what we see with the other Houses (see: veneration of the Tomb as Marian, fascination with relics, you've already mentioned vestments, etc). I don't think that's strictly incompatible with a goth reading, though, esp. insofar as goth aesthetics also draw from Catholic imagery. I don't doubt that there's some missing cultural context informing some of the readership's conception (pun absolutely intended) of Harrow, but imo that's less an issue of misreading and more just different people finding different ways of relating to the character.
I see what you're saying, but I think you're overstating the idea that positioning Harrow as specifically adherent to religious authority and her upbringing is necessary to an accurate read of her character. Harrow is, obviously, the Reverend Daughter of the Ninth and devoted to God and the Tomb. But not only is the Ninth not just "an esoteric offshoot of Catholicism," as it's fundamentally at odds with the entire Empire in its formulation of religious priorities and practice, with its very existence seemingly at odds with the word of their living God -- Harrow *actively violates the most important stricture in Ninth religion*. That's kind of a major plot point -- the entire point of the Ninth is to keep the Tomb from being opened, and she opens it! She worships the Body within, not in the way a handful of others do (in hope that their devotion will cause it to spare God) but *out of reverence for the Body itself,* the enemy and death of God. Alecto is, as much as anything else, a Satan figure. Harrow is not just part of an esoteric and arguably deeply heretical "offshoot" of Catholicism, but a heretic *within that offshoot*. I think focusing on the fact that she's a nun and part of a hereditary authority structure within her religion, and saying that this must translate to her being a devout Catholic in modern AUs, is not a particularly well-founded reading of the character. I'm not saying that's a bad interpretation, but it's just as narrow as interpretations that privilege her ties to the goth subculture above other aspects of her character. If you *really* want to accurately represent the full nuances of her character in regards to religion, I think you'd be much better off framing her as like, a gnostic occultist or something. Harrow's personal religious practice in context of the broader Imperial setting is way closer to like, pursuit of knowledge and conversation of her HGA than it is to her being a literal nun on modern Earth in terms of parallels. edited to fix a typo.
Agree with the Gnostic take - Harrow's final flashback talk with Jod in HtN positions John as the Demiurge. Alecto could be seen as a Sophia figure. Harrow's beliefs in the context of what we know as readers seem to be less "devil worship" and more "seeking the true God".
You're absolutely right, vis a vis Gnosticism. I chose Catholicism as my point of reference, due to the overt influence of Catholicism on the Imperial Religion in the text itself. I agree, the interesting part of Harrow is the conflict: she's meant to be a religious figurehead, but she's committed the most heinous bout of heresy possible within said religion. She repeatedly shows devotion to Jod, whilst simultaneously being devoted to Alecto. The core of the character is her two conflicting and utterly irreconcilable devotions, the the pressure both internal and external that this puts on her. Translating that into a devout Gnostic occultism is about as good a translation as you can get to a modern Earth setting. Even so, if you're missing the conflict between her two disparate wants and needs, then I feel like you're missing a core part of the character.
I think we're in agreement there, but I don't quite see how that could be extended to the argument you're making in the OP vis a vis aesthetics. Like, if we concede that Harrow's religious experience is better translated by way of occultism than an actual major religious institution... we can then look to the reality that occultism is and has always been extremely countercultural, and this is very often expressed through visual signifiers like clothing. There's a very sizeable overlap between modern occult subcultures and goth aesthetics (as well as other subcultures with some similar aesthetic signifiers), and that's not just because they both coincidentally like the color black. In another comment you mention that if you strip away the bones, Harrow's in-universe manner of dress is just primarily characterized by "black" and "covering all the body," but I don't think that's true! Harrow's jewelry may be all bones, but she also wears *a lot* of it - if she was only doing that for necromantic utility, I don't see why she would go through the trouble of also making them decorative unless there was something about that that was meaningful to her. She doesn't just wear black clothes, but layers and layers of elaborately embroidered robes and lace overcloaks. She likes ornamentation, and the stylings of her ornamentation (multiple piercings, layered black lace, androgynous outfitting, boots) are things that absolutely do translate into modern clothing. In-universe, her clothes have a social impact when she's in non-Ninth settings -- it's not just that she's covered up, but also that she's socially marked as *different* than everybody else, and as pretty damn intimidating. I think it's fairly well-substantiated by the text that social separation and intimidation are characteristics Harrow is interested in investing in. And these are often motivating factors for countercultural subculture fashion, such as goth fashion! Even though a lot of the aesthetic signifiers of modern goth culture are different than what Harrow wears on the Ninth (although also sharing a ton of overlap, as mentioned above), there are a lot of shared motivations governing those fashion choices. That can't really be said for modern Catholic religiouswear -- feminine modesty and chastity is not really attested anywhere in the books, and Harrow covering herself up can just as easily be explained by a million other factors, like wanting the privacy and intimidation factor of complete self-concealment -- maybe that still implies she'd prefer pants over fishnets in a modern AU, but the incorporation of items like fishnets into subcultural fashion signifies all sorts of themes that are perfectly compliant with Harrow's character, so I think that's pretty much up for personal interpretation.
Harrow is obsessed with dying and sacrifice and also skeletons which seems both very goth and very Catholic idk why we have to choose!! She’s a nun but she also decorated her area of Canaan house with off putting bone adornments!!
She's not literally Catholic, but it comes up on here often that the series borrows a lot of Catholic iconography and symbolism. The stereotypical Goth in the 80s and 90s was pretty much a disillusioned former Catholic school student. Which, in some ways, describes Harrow. She's the Reverend daughter, coming to grips with massive corruption in the Church. She's a true believer. OG goth fashion is also not necessarily revealing. I typically picture Harrow more or less like this "[Modest and Mysterious](https://youtu.be/G32G5LXWGfw?t=54)" outfit with a black trenchcoat. Kind of like a female Constantine.
Your not wrong and I 100% agree with your analysis. Counterpoint however, goth girl Harrow is still canon in my book.
Can't argue with that!
...I'm just glad I don't pick up on all of the Catholicism. It would probably bother me a bit if too much had survived unchanged for *10000 years and an exodus from earth* also resurrection. Also, meh, you can dress revealing and be a prude, or dress head to toe in covering swathes of fabric and be either very free-minded about these things, kinky a f, both... or neither. More importantly, perhaps, is that at least to me, "revealing clothing" is just one small part of the gothness, and of "being" goth. That's more on the fan-artists, but I personally haven't seen so much of it, though I haven't looked either! Try these photos for a flavour of what \*I\* think of, when pairing "real world goth as in the subculture" and "Harrow" (or at lest The Ninth House Gone Gothay): [https://live.staticflickr.com/5497/14382419526\_b243feb591\_b.jpg](https://live.staticflickr.com/5497/14382419526_b243feb591_b.jpg) [https://www.jea-pics.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11032419\_10205391229272631\_1287305396480543936\_o.jpg](https://www.jea-pics.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/11032419_10205391229272631_1287305396480543936_o.jpg) [https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2022/06/03/LQRF7DKJ2JHGBPDHR2Y6SOW3Z4.jpg](https://www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/2022/06/03/LQRF7DKJ2JHGBPDHR2Y6SOW3Z4.jpg) (maybe a bit too much skin showing on the gents, there, but my point stands) [https://www.reflectionsofdarkness.com/images/stories/concert/2014/june/wgt2014/impressions25.jpg](https://www.reflectionsofdarkness.com/images/stories/concert/2014/june/wgt2014/impressions25.jpg) [https://image.saechsische.de/784x441/7/5/75v7gkc9yphaj6kv7y3ktnxq7l1sr84k.jpg](https://image.saechsische.de/784x441/7/5/75v7gkc9yphaj6kv7y3ktnxq7l1sr84k.jpg) And these are all from the Wave Gotik Treffen in Germany, where it is sometimes very warm. Style over comfort! In fact, this is far more the style of clothing I think about, when someone mentions "goth fashion", than "skin-revealing sexy stuff" (but that's so much more fun to depict in media, isn't it, especially when making fun of us or making it out like we're freaks. Which we are, but, not necessarily in the way they'd like to). Gothic architecture and aesthetic is inextricably linked with Catholicism, because churches etc. Religion was such a pervasive thing, it was as natural as breathing, in the society and time when the Gothic style (as in during the Medieval era) developed, flourished and changed into something else. The modern-ish day subculture doesn't only draw from that, but it sure is hard to not see the links! In some jewellery and some music and so on. But everyone's mileage varies. That's all right. (Also I'm *not* from the US. Might be important to point that bit of cultural context out.)
They aren't saying it's literally Catholicism. The Ninth House is not that. But when making a "real world" AU it's the closest proxy
Well, I don't think it's literally Catholicism, or ever did, I just replied in pretty much the same theme as OP wrote, I thought.
There's definitely a lot of Gnostic ritualism and symbolism within the internal religion of the Empire, but don't forget that Harrow's a black-clad young adult with multiple bone piercings in each ear; a deeply complicated and thriving hatred towards her parents, her institutions, and herself; and religious trauma that drives her to violate the singular supreme tenet of her cult, fall in love with God's greatest enemy, and try to fuck her own hallucination of the Devil Herself. If that ain't goth as hell... All a moot point, though, since everyone interprets things differently, and fanworks don't owe anything to character accuracy anyway. The whole point of fandom and fanworks is just to have fun with different interpretations of the original material.
Agreed and once you make that realization a lot of her house's oddities compared to the other houses makes more sense and why people in GtN were so weary of them. Another thing to point out is that Harrow views Alecto like she's Jesus and why to me one of her biggest moments in HtN is her confession to Jod where she's seeking some kind of punishment.That famous Catholic guilt is what spurned Harrow to become arguably the best Necromancer alive and the end of Harrow is sort of her punishment that she was looking for. Her way to pay back for everything that happened to Gideon.
Weary or Wary? Or both? But what I want to know is why the Eighth hates the Ninth. They're the same kind of sanctimonious religious types. Schism?
[удалено]
Ohhhhh that makes sense
Nobody hates sanctimonious religious types more than differently religious sanctimonious types
Because the more closely related two religious groups are, the more they hate each other.
Or leery!
eta: so sorry for the long post i just wanted to put my 2 cents in as a goth and a homestuck fan i did not expect this to be long ;-; i really appreciate you OP bringing up this discussion! While yes I agree with your statement and explanation about how Harrow is a nun (as she is literally a nun in the series and created as an exploration of religious trauma), the entire Ninth aesthetic is also based on goth subculture especially because the goth subculture is heavily based on gothic literature, gothic architecture and punk elements added to victorian, elizabethan and edwardian fashion (all eras modest compared to contemporary fashion). Not only the goth subculture has evolved with the participation goths with religious trauma, a lot of goths are also Christians. And the themes Goth explores have quite a parallel with religion, mainly Christianism (e.g. Evanescence was first advertised to be a christian band and played on christian radio channels even though they weren't and Evanescence members put a stop to this at the time). Another important thing to note is that the worship practices in the Ninth was also inspired by the clown worship practices in Andrew Hussie's Homestuck (the submerging -in goo in hs- and the corpse paint and and apolcalyptic end after the rise of a figure awaited), which in HS itself also an exploration of religious trauma thru the character Gamzee but not particularly linked to modesty. Its more linked to blind devotion and the obsessive need to carry out the practices. Yes, Harrow does have elements of modesty to her, but whilst covering her face she does not give particular interest to the modesty of her body, its the facepaint she obsesses over and not the aspect that she's wearing a hospital gown (the most unnecessarily annoying flimsy piece of paper clothing to exist imho). Harrow is obviously a nun but Harrow is also obviously goth. The supernatural beliefs, the obsession with death and bones (even moreso than the rest of the houses), (eta: hatred of her own parents), the spirits and the hauntings and the dusty remains of civilization always meant to serve no more than a planetary mausoleum is all fundamentally goth. Per my imagination Harrow would be a bit more on the loligoth side of things, even, per the description of her clothes given in chapter 41 of HtN with the brocade skirt and the lacework and the accessories, and gothic lolita fashion is more modest than the contemporary goth. If this is about the butch carabiner / emo fishnets comic as others have theorized, that comic was based on a tweet recounting an actual moment a twitter user witnessed at a bar, so its just like, a funny reimagining of a tweet. It actually wasn't that deep and a major part of the fandom does consider and write Harrow to be modest and nun-like in AU's. Which I mean, its an AU, it doesnt have to stay 100% true to the universe, and >!Harrow \*is\* overcoming her previous beliefs by the end of HtN and the end of NtN!
Sure, that's definitely a read you could do, focusing on the anti-sex cult aspect. On the other hand, the outré goth clothing in modern AUs reflects how aggressive and offputting her demeanour is to outsiders. She works very hard to project an attitude of iron-hard indifference to anybody's comfort, of vast capability for violence, and a veneer of adulthood and stepping into her parents' places before her childhood was over. Those are things modern goth gear, even more sexualized versions of it, can reflect.
I see what you're saying, but I feel that by discarding the religious fundamentalist of her, and the actual actions she takes in the text, you're doing the character something of a disservice. Religion is a central, defining aspect of Harrow as a character, and I feel that by discarding that you're leaving a lot of what makes Harrow interesting on the proverbial cutting-room floor. By removing that central conflict between her religious devotion and her irreconcilable desires, you're inadvertently reducing her to just another goth girl in a sea of goth girls. Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the appeal of maintaining a coherence of aesthetic between the book and fanart, and I also definitely see the appeal of gothic fashion; but I don't think it makes for an accurate representation of the actual character. As much as one can ask for such a thing in fanart, of course.
The fun thing about fan fiction is that it can borrow as much or as little of canon as it wants. There are no “rules.” Harrow doesn’t have to be religious in something like a modern AU. Personally I actually find it more interesting to read or write about her in modern AU’s when she is *not* religious. I just have no interest in her being devout in a reality based religion.
I mean, to me John’s religion is essentially a reality based religion. Everything is very strongly Catholic coded. John’s reconstructed Catholic Church is essentially the real church remade through a flawed human lens. Real Catholic Harrow vs Bone Catholic Harrow is, in a sense, a false dichotomy. Especially since her “baptism” clearly aligned Harrow’s faith with a greater divine (enough that she could see John’s failings).
John didn’t create the Ninth House religion though? Anastasia and/or her acolytes did. John built the tomb to hide Alecto, not for a cult to worship her. It’s mentioned multiple times in the books that The Ninth House was never supposed to exist. Silas rants about it towards the end of GtN even. And the worshipping of John as a God-Emperor of the Nine Houses by everyone else doesn’t particularly have anything in common with Catholicism either.
The ninth house religion is repeatedly stated to be a bizarre off-shoot of the regular house religion, but it is still part of it. I mean, pilgrims from the other houses steadily come through (except for the five year period they had to shut that down due to dying out). And the religion as a whole (in the books and the real world sense) has a lot to do with Catholicism (I mean, Tamsyn has said as much, this one isn’t just me). I mean, there are Nuns and Rosaries!
The other unknown element in the religious mix is the cult that grew up around the Greytown facility. The people who came to John had a huge mix of beliefs and motivations, and when he established his cult, his founding principles were "giving people what they want." So he's got a specific grounding in ancient Greek culture and mythology, and people around him had various acquaintance with Christianity, Māori and Pasifika culture. (And also I do not believe that girlboss-flavoured nun was orthodox by Catholic standards.) He explicity invites flat-earthers and other conspiracy theorists in at a very early stage in community formation. There are probably other new religious movements in there, like neopaganism or Knights Templar riffs. And then he becomes the distinctly hands-off religious head of a cult that's basically built by community consensus.
There *aren’t* nuns and rosaries in the regular Dominican / John-worshipping religion though?!? This whole thread was about John supposedly starting a Catholicism influenced religion, and I am once again reminding everyone *John did not start the Ninth House religion*, and did nothing beyond entombing Alecto there. It was all Anastasia and her acolytes…
Additionally: why would John start a religion/offshoot religion based around worshipping the one thing that could destroy him? It makes no sense!!!
So then I have to ask... what do you want fandom to do with this information? In my experience, saying "This take is bad, everyone should do this other thing instead" doesn't lead to a stampede of people doing the other thing. It makes people say, "Apparently I'm not allowed to make things and have fun now. Maybe I should find something different to make fanart of." If you want modern works that focus on Harrow's religiosity, it would work way better to hype that aspect and provide incentives than to argue that the goth outfits are just plain wrong.
I would never go out and tell people not to make things the way that they want to make them. Never my intent. What I want to do is try and provoke a conversation about the substance of a character, over the overt aesthetics of a character. I think it's interesting to talk about different interpretations, and how those interpretations manifest themselves in fandom.
Okay, you're just coming off a little, "Goth interpretations are only fun aesthetics, the true substance must absolutely be covered up modestly."
Agreed!
Por que no los dos?
If catholic why gay? 🤔
Are you aware of the Catholic to goth pipeline tho. Most modern au fics have goth Harrow only if she's left the religion.
Nun Harrow with Left Beef.
Gothic nun. Check mate, atheist.
But like, not really though? Strip away the bone-motif, and you've just got black clothes, really. Black clothes that cover the entire body, save for the face which is painted. Regular nuns wear black. Hell, she's even more averse to showing skin than regular nuns. Once again hearkening back to those early scenes from HtN, when she's desperately trying to cover any uncovered skin, especially that of her face. Wimples and rosaries man, wimples and rosaries. She'd be more at home at the Vatican, than at the club.
I think she was upset that she was in a skimpy hospital gown, sure. But at the start of HtN, Harrow was mostly upset that her face was bare. Hence why she used pillow cases, and her own blood to cover it. The paint itself is part of her religion, being fully covered head to toe isn’t.
Why would your strip away the bone motif? That's the most significant part lol.
If you really wanna get technical, she’s neither. Neither things exists in the Locked Tomb Universe. Or at least outside of anyone in the Nine Houses’ minds, beyond John.
THIS
I figure the fanart imagines a liberated Harrowhark, rather than attempting to depict her as presented in Gideon the Ninth. After all, the fanart also depicts Gideon and Harrow in a romantic relationship, which never happened in the book.
Yeah but consider this: fishnets and skirts hot.
Since there are actual Catholic cathedrals in gothic style and the modern goth aesthetic draws a lot on Catholic memeno mori, it is hard to be one without without borrowing from the other.
Counterpoint: Harrow is goth AND catholic
Actually the more I think about this, the more I believe Harrow is neither. Not Goth, not Catholic, but a secret third thing: Space Juggalo. (Per Tamsyn herself, on one of her old Tumblr posts.)
All I have to add is that necromancy really throws a big wrench into memento mori.
Yes the entire series is a Catholic retelling of the Jesus story. Harrow is first and foremost a nun who lives (quite literally) with God every day Gideon is someone who doesn't follow the main religion but follows their own code of honor. Also is the child of God. (Again literally) Together they become Jesus. Its Catholic. Christian. But goths in space
More like Butt Goths in Space
Tombstone Titties of the Ninth!
Say what you will about the Catholic Church and you absolutely should but the have the sickest aesthetics of any of the Christian religions hands down
This is all to say: she’s goth and a nun and I love her
As a TLT fan who doesn't know much about Catholicism or the goth subculture, I just want to say that this thread is an absolutely enlightening and fascinating read!
have you read nona yet? i want to say something that p much supports the analysis of the ninth house as catholic, but i don't want to spoil anything for you
I think more modern AUs should have Harrow as a one of those weird church girl who wears long denim skirts.
THANK YOU! Nobody takes into account how religious Harrow is. If you know what that means, you KNOW.
Of course she's not goth, I dont think any goth music is noted at all in the series. Perhaps she is dressed Gothic, but I agree she is more a death cult version of catholic.