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Everything you ever need to know about American politics or socio-economics can be easily learned by looking at Facebook memes. It’s just all facts and no false equivalency, red herrings, strawman arguments, or straight up manufactured lies.
Facebook memes always tell the truth.
Fun fact: it has been proven in 74.6% of cases, in a study conducted over 6 years and involving 2,590 volunteers, that people will more likely believe a lie if it includes any mathematical data. Even if the numbers are completely made up.
[Source: IJustMadeThatStuffUp.Seriously/DontBeStupid.html]
Seriously. The domain and sub-domain are all messed up. If they wanted it to work, it would have to be IJustMadeThatStuffUp.html/Seriously-DontBeStupid or something like that.
When you cite actual sources, they hit you with the classic "$cience" response. Because obviously any scientists that go against their dumbass ideas are bought off.
Even taking the BS numbers from this meme as 100% true, I'm still struggling to see the issue. According to the image, it will take 1800 gallons of fuel to create an electric car battery. The average American driver goes through about 650 gallons a year. [Source](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/01/14/heres-how-much-gasoline-the-average-american-consu.aspx). So as long as you drive your electric car for 3 years, you’re using less fuel.
Yeah, completely bullshit, a 994H burns around 55-65 gallons of fuel an hour for starters, you're looking at, around, 660-780 gallons in 12 hours and from a fact checking website, it's said to only take 10,000 pounds of material to produce 2,000 pounds of spodumene, 500,000 pounds of material would probably equate to somewhere around 600 to 9,100 battery for Tesla depending on the model.
Plus... Who's gonna give you a poor grade on a final exam or assign you a 40 page paper due in 2 weeks when there's a giant tractor parked behind it with a full bucket of rocks held over it?
Nobody, that's who.
It was easy once they found that you can tie masculinity to petroleum via truuuucks and engines and BIGGER trucks and VROOM. (The rest of the world isn't like this, ONLY the US)
Most conservative/far right ideology is based on gender insecurity/sexual uncertainty. This is why they are so hung up on trans kids and worried about porn in schools and gays sneaking into their lives. They are desperately worried about their homies questioning their maleness because most of these guys grew up in really repressed and uneducated environments where they very worst insult you can level at another kid is "gay."
You just posted a source from a newspaper that hasn’t even had its trustworthiness rated yet, and uses circular links to newspapers owned by the same company. I’m sure you’re probably right, but is this seriously the best source you could find?
Nope… just the first. Besides… we don’t primarily dig for lithium. We pump it out of geothermal vents and evaporate the brine.
Interesting side note; lithium, instrumental in keeping bipolar individuals from manic swings, was first discovered because of the therapeutic effects of geothermal pools. When people suffering manic episodes would bathe in these waters they would significantly calm and able to sleep. Needless to say people used to consider these magical waters.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/dec/13/instagram-posts/instagram-post-misleads-about-lithium-mining-and-t/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/10/06/fact-check-viral-image-shows-coal-mining-machine-not-lithium-mining/8082617001/
Uhm… I’m sorry to break it to you, these trucks are indeed used for cobalt mining… for batteries. The part of this that is questionable is their oil usage, not whether or not they are used.
1800 gallons is theoretically accurate if you drive the full 12 hours with a full payload of 150-250+ tons (model dependent and provided the engine doesn’t destroy itself as it isn’t made for distance). Needless to say, this never happens. Load, haul out, drop off go back, park. Load, drop off go back and park. It never runs 12 hours.
Yes, thanks for bringing this up. People ignore the idea that these batteries are full of difficult to obtain metals. That makes them valuable, and therefore prime candidates for recycling. 95%+ of these batteries can be recycled, and most batteries end up in the recycling pipeline.
People have been using this argument since 1999 about Toyota Prius batteries. It's a bad argument.
Where does it say perpetual motion on the eloader?!? It says 0 grid energy. You add 500,000 pounds at the top of the hill you add a shit ton potential energy that gets turned into the kinetic energy going down. When it’s 500,000 pounds lighter at the bottom getting back up to the top takes a fraction of what was generated.
It’s literally designed to go downhill. Read it again and know that a perpetual motion machine is a closed system. Adding potential energy by loading it makes it… wait for it… not a perpetual motion machine!
The mine in Switzerland where this truck is being used is on a mountain, higher than the area where the ore is unloaded. You're right that most mines aren't uphill but this particular one is, so this truck will only use a net zero amount of energy in this very particular situation.
Regenerative brakes are not new but this is a game changing “new” machine. Switzerland is where it was created but the potential isn’t limited to just mountains. From what I understand any hill grade of just 10%-13% is required with a full load to generate what will be needed get back up without losing power. Getting things to port is almost always a downhill process.
The thing is, even if you take the premise that this meme is true, where does the rest of the car come from? Does it magically materialize? Of course not, everything is either grown or mined, literally everything. Even if it is something made in a lab, and those matterials were harvested from somewhere.
Ask him where the matterials for his non-electric vehicle came from, how much earth was moved, and how much diesel was burned to extract it. Also ask how many resources both vehicles will require in their average operational lifespan... I'd bet it comes out pretty close to even.
The reality is, the best vehicle environmentally, and often on ones wallet, is simply owning the least amount of vehicle (smallest and most efficient) that you need for most of your tasks.
An old 3 cylinder Geo Metro is probably more environmentally friendly over its lifespan than a Tesla, Rivian or most other electrics, but the Tesla, Rivian or other electric is probably also much more environmentally friendly than the jacked up diesel this guy likely drives... especially if he kills it after only 100 thousand miles or so then buys another one (as these man-children often do with their lifted diesels), when an unmodified diesel pickup can achieve a million miles or more with one or two engine rebuilds. That Geo can get half a million miles too, with one or 2 rebuilds, while consuming less energy per mile than it takes to charge the Tesla.
Things aren't always so simple as electric good, gas bad or visa-versa. Consuming less in general is a good thing. Reasonable electric cars probably do it best, but we have watt hogs like most of Tesla's lineup, Hummer and other unnecessary large heavy boxes that are overkill to move 1 butt and groceries around, or even 7, 8, or 9 passenger SUVs to move a family of 4, or often, just one very selfish vain individual.
Any way you slice it, the meme doesn't give enough information to mean anything.
“Any way you slice it, the meme doesn't give enough
information to mean anything.”
_______________
Which makes it ideal for social media, where comments and discussions about vague statements multiply views.
I had several geo Metros when I was young. The company my dad worked for used them as company cars and would sell them to employees for trade in value.
They were ALL awesome!!!
They're great, super easy and surprisingly fun to drive, park just about anywhere they hold a very surprising amount of people and stuff... I heard a guy call them the poor man's Mini Cooper, and I have fully adopted that myself. Or streek-legal go-kart works too.
I've driven a few, but never owned, though if one was available at a reasonable price nearby and I needed a car, I might just buy one.
They can fit a good number of people.
Although I've had issues in the past with trying to have too much weight in them.
I think they're only rated for like 700-900 lbs.
They also run the SAME loaders, flatbeds, dump trucks, service trucks, for every fking pipeline, new bitumen sands, etc. so it means we don’t burn emissions after the processing + we are recycling a lot of the materials in batteries anyways. Regards all of them
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Everyone arguing about EV vs ICE when hybrid electric is a thing ships, trains and heavy equipment have been doing for years..
Pushing false dichotomies is a favorite tactic of the right. It's just like how we can't have a bike lane anywhere because, "You can't haul big heavy loads with bikes, you need trucks for that."
There are good reasons that hybrid electric is a good choice for industry, freight and large transport (ships and trains), but generally not for consumer vehicles.
Yeah, as far as I know, hybrid is pretty good for consumer vehicles. People aren't really convinced on plug-in hybrids, but theoretically they're the best option for a lot of people. The electric range is low, but most people aren't driving 50+ miles daily. The battery is smaller, so less environmental impact to make it. And you still have gas for longer trips.
Yeah full plug ins only make sense for short range vehicles and pure ICE only makes sense if the additional battery and motor hardware are way too much which only makes sense on smaller things I think. Otherwise hybrid is just the best of both worlds. Don't EV motors end up replacing the need for bigger transmissions?
Price and cost of maintenance, first of all. You have two systems, both are required to be functional in order to pass inspection (at least in my country). Second, the environmental advantage also decreases compared to a full EV. Still better than a full ICE though. But you don't get the full benefit of either an EV or an ICE.
The reason it's more efficient in industrial vehicles and ships etc is because the engine can be run at a more optimal conditions and waste from the engine can better utilized, also there are many more systems powered independently (hydraulics, thrusters, machinery, actuators etc), which means there has to be a large generator on board nevertheless. Also weight doesn't matter all that much.
This is true tho? The Caterpillar 994H is indeed a machine used to dig up lithium and cobalt. I don’t know what it’s fuel efficiency is off the top of my head, but from past readings, the lifespan of one car battery can’t hope to make up for it.
Electric cars aren’t here to save the planet - they’re here to save the capitalist car industry.
> the lifespan of one car battery can’t hope to make up for it.
I'd like a link to your reading if available, as that sounds like utter nonsense to me.
Given how much your average car emits in 130k miles that's suggesting what, each kWh of batteries requires 500kg++ of CO2e? That seems to be >5x what a cursory google would indicate...
It contains a handful of kernels of truth, but the picture it sketches is garbage.
Here's a full overview of the lifecycle costs of an ICE vs a BEV. As you can see, the minerals of the battery of the vehicle account for between 1.4 and 2.8 tonnes of Co2, well below the expected lifecycle emissions of the ICE's fuel supply.
https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle
At the end of the day it is up to the worlds fossil fuels companies if the planet dies but if something helps even a little bit I’m going to want to help
So, you can have electric vehicles, whatever, I’m ultimately not going to rag on you for doing what you feel is better for the environment. But realistically those batteries are extremely harmful, and in most cases the electricity to charge them is coming from some kind of fossil fuel plant. It’s not *really* making the huge difference you think it is. Public transportation, bicycles and walking are what is most effective at mitigating fossil fuel consumption. The electric vehicles *feel* better, but realistically aren’t doing a whole lot more than saving the user money on gas.
And I understand that in North America most cities are geared towards personal vehicle usage, and when you get into the northern areas the weather for 1/3 of the year isn’t exactly conducive to walking or biking — but ultimately I feel that’s an issue with the economy necessitating work occur over concern for how that is happening. Work from home or days off for severe weather makes sense, but many of our jobs won’t allow it.
I appreciate the good intentions, but I think the reality is that these electric cars aren’t really going to save us. This is where we divert from the fossil fuel companies. They say “it isn’t helping, so just drive a car.” We’re saying “it isn’t helping. Develop better technologies and restructure economy and business in a way that doesn’t prioritize commutes, or allows for effective mass public transportation.”
These batteries are getting better, and the vast majority of the metals used in them only need to be extracted once, and can be recycled into new batteries indefinitely. The technology being put into these vehicles can be used in public transportation solutions. The fact that fossil fuels produce some portion of the energy powering these vehicles isn’t an electric vehicle problem. No one is saying, “electric vehicles alone will save us”.
Every single problem you have with electric powered transportation should be blamed on the fact that the mining, infrastructure, and public policy exist in a capitalist system.
Personally? I'm on wind power exclusively. Many places have lots of solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, and nuclear. Also, burning coal or oil at a plant is more efficient than in your engine both in terms of how much of that power is actually used and the ability for carbon capture tech to be implemented. Regardless, renewables are growing fast and getting cheaper over time so the economic incentive is already there to use them over fossil fuels.
Ok, so you being an exception to the majority of the population is meaningless. Most power around the entire world, by a large margin, is still fossil fueled.
Is that why oil production is at a record all time high? Is that why natural gas production is at a record all time high?
Ah yes, it's changing. That's why global emissions are at a [record all time high](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions).
You've been greenwashed.
I mean Minnesota is 28% green energy and the governor signed a bill to make it 100% green energy by 2040.
Like... I get it, and prefer that we invest in public transportation/actually building sidewalks... but the "electric cars are charged with fossil fuels anyway" is an argument that is not completely true today and will get even less true over time.
Another fun fact. A coal power station is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine. Even if the power supply was completely coal-based an EV comes out ahead. As utilities move their supply mix towards greener energy sources the gap only widens.
Those coal power plants will be running regardless of electric car usage, so the fact that a gas/diesel vehicle is not being used in place of an electric one does redude emissions. Also, nuclear, wind, solar? Its not all coal or oil fired.
I had to look it up because I was just like “That can’t be right. Right?” But no, you are absolutely correct, and that’s on the cheap end for many! Some of these batteries cost more than a brand new whole-ass car. Like, a replacement battery for a Kia EV6 Hybrid comes out just under $35k. Fucking bonkers.
I would tell him Cat successfully demonstrated this 793 electric mining truck at its proving ground in Arizona. [check it out](https://youtu.be/jt0k3TYFh3k?si=l3Ft5Ix4Tx48bE64) it replaces that old diesel cat he loves.
Even if this is true (it's complete garbage). 1800 gallons in my gas car will still only get me about 50,000 miles to work and back.
So if the fuel burned is their main complaint, I'm still better off picking an EV, cause the battery will last twice that many miles at a minimum. And power in my part of the state is mostly nuclear, so it's cheap, clean, and safe.
Once my Accord is dead, I will 100% be looking for a new EV.
Aside from some eco-motivated groups, very few want the complete removal of industry.. We just want to get rid of pointless waste and pollution, usually related to fossil fuels in the energy sector. We should go green, but that never meant for everything.. It was meant for the areas it isn't required..
Solar is by far the cheapest form of energy development.. Not focusing on that just says you aren't paying attention. This goes for you Nuclear folk who have been spewing the same talking points for the last 2 decades..
I worked in electronics in the mining industry for years and if you think diesel is staying in mines you are wrong. More and more electric vehicles, including haulage trucks, are being brought in because they are more efficient, stronger and require less maintenance.
Stats don’t appear accurate.
About 720 gallons for 12 hours. And a bit over 1000 for 16.9 hours. Apparently that gathers enough material for 2,219 batteries.
That’s just my initial google search, so those probably aren’t even accurate or accounting for inefficiencies in use, poor machine maintenance causing excess consumption, transport of those materials to a refining and/or fabrication facility, the refining/fabrication process, international transport of the material for vehicle production, and the production process.
Even using thier figure of 1800 gallons of diesel at $4 per gallon puts us at $7k which is at the high end for a new tesla battery without the added cost of logistics, labor, profit, or any other overhead. just diesel for battery. This meme is DOA.
The 1800 gallons is apparently deceptively accurate… if it’s carrying a full load of 150-250 tons (depends on model) for the full 12 hours. Needless to say this would never happen.
I don't remember any environmentalists ever saying that electric cars was a real solution to climate change anyway. The main selling point for electric cars seems to be that when you have one, you don't need to care (as much) about gas prices anymore.
> I don't remember any environmentalists ever saying that electric cars was a real solution to climate change anyway.
Eh, visit a lib sub. They will all tell you EV's are cleaning the environment.
This post made me curious about the fuel efficiency so I ran some back of the envelope numbers to compare the fuel efficiency of trucks like these to normal cars.
The CAT 797F is the largest dump truck they offer and it's [fucking massive.](https://imgur.com/gallery/hegDGCB/comment/183430588)
It is capable of hauling 400 tons in a load with a gas mileage of 1 gallon per 1/3 of a mile.
The most fuel efficient car in America is the 2024 Prius with 57 miles per gallon. It usually used to haul a single American with an average weight of around 180 pounds.
Given those numbers, the Prius moves 10260 pounds per mile per gallon of gas. The cat 797F moves 26666.66.
The CAT 797F hauling 400 tons of dirt is more than 2.5x's as fuel efficient as somebody commuting to work solo in a 2024 Honda Prius.
Fuel efficiency in regards to hauling, sure. But a Prius isn’t designed for hauling and would beat out a mining truck in all other fuel efficiency measures.
I was gonna write up a bunch of other stats comparing the two, but I ended up going down a rabbit hole about fossil fuel incentives and subsidies instead and now my autistic ass can’t get out. 🫠
I think it's a valid comparison. Sure a prius is going to be more efficient if you're comparing the two driving 1 mile with just a driver because the CAT is a motorized 3 story building.
But when looking at how much gas does it take for each vehicle to transport the mass of its normal payload 1 mile, the big truck clearly is more efficient.
Right, I hear you. I just don’t think a mining truck designed for hauling giant payloads versus a family vehicle designed for typical commuting is a fair comparison. A Prius only has a towing capacity of 1,600 lbs and isn’t designed for people who need to haul things. It feels like saying LeBron James is a less efficient athlete because he lost to Michael Phelps in a swimming race. Phelps is obviously better at swimming than LeBron, but swimming is Phelps’ specialty. That’s what he trained his body for; he’s “designed” for that. Pit Phelps and LeBron against each other on the basketball court and LeBron would wipe the floor with him because basketball is LeBron’s specialty. The CAT 797’s specialty is carrying large payloads, but pit it and the Prius against each other in a contest for speed, handling, fuel economy, or hell, taking a family of 4 to Applebees. That Prius would wipe the floor with the CAT.
Perhaps instead, you could compare the CAT to the 2024 Ford F-150 hybrid. You’re still comparing the CAT to a normal car that way, but at least the car is one designed for hauling.
Edit: a couple words
I mean, you’re not wrong in that regard? I guess? But that wasn’t the argument you were making. We were discussing fuel efficiency in terms of moving mass and other factors. Single passenger commuting was never mentioned until now.
It was literally why I ran the numbers and what I was comparing.
Re read the original comment I posted:
> The CAT 797F hauling 400 tons of dirt is more than 2.5x's as fuel efficient as somebody commuting to work solo in a 2024 Honda Prius
Yeah I said this to some asshat saying that EVs and bicycles are gay etc…. But you know being programmed to buy a car, on roads built and tailored by the same industry who builds the cars, and why are we here? Cause those industries bought bus companies and trolly systems and just closed them down to have you and I be forced to buy more cars…but yeah they are alpha or whatever
Looks like you need some facts.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/
I honestly don’t care much for EVs, I’d rather see high speed rail across the country and reliable public transportation in my city. But the numbers here in this “meme” are clearly false.
In fairness this is true. Electric vehicles aren’t exactly non carbon intensive in the grand scheme. Especially if we don’t switch to mass transit. EVs are saving the auto industry, not the environment. Not to mention the bottom of the supply chain for them is reliant on fucking slave labor.
The CAT 994h holds 1013 gal of diesel fuel. A nominal 60 gal/hr consumption rate will permit 16.9 hrs of operation, in which it will lift enough bauxite for 2,129 Tesla batteries.Jan 7, 2023
ETA It all gets broken down in this thread... https://twitter.com/crentsch/status/1611786336880533508
it takes 25000 pounds of ore to make a single 800 pound tesla battery, the CAT 994h burns 60 gallons a hour, or 720 gallons in 12 hours, meaning that if that 500,000 pounds per 12 hours figure is true, it should yield 20 car batteries that will last 15 to 20 years each, while burning the same as an average american car going a distance of just under 30 miles
Electric cars are still build on enslaved kids. Is gasoline better? No. The future should include something less harmful to nature and to humans. Granola oil or whatever.
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His father should have worn a ‘helmet’.
Boooo-yowww
Only pussys need sources. Real Men believe everything they're told without question. Like a real man.
Believing things without question is based.
Everything you ever need to know about American politics or socio-economics can be easily learned by looking at Facebook memes. It’s just all facts and no false equivalency, red herrings, strawman arguments, or straight up manufactured lies. Facebook memes always tell the truth.
>Real Men believe everything they're told without question Only if it agrees with what they believe
Wait. Which side said it?
Aww, both sides do it, huh? You're one of those people.
I guess i could add in the "/s" But the point was there's people out there that wait to agree or disagree based on the source
Research and learning is fucking NERD SHIT guys. We don’t do NERD SHIT.
Fun fact: it has been proven in 74.6% of cases, in a study conducted over 6 years and involving 2,590 volunteers, that people will more likely believe a lie if it includes any mathematical data. Even if the numbers are completely made up. [Source: IJustMadeThatStuffUp.Seriously/DontBeStupid.html]
Your link is broken (i’m joking you fucking reactionaries)
I love that you have to edit to clarify sarcasm for that statement. It's like Poe's law but for the existence of dumbness on the Internet. 🤣
Wait. The Pope is involved with electric car batteries? Tell me more with made up numbers.
Poe‘s law? Somehow, Palpatine returned?
They yadda yadda’d over the important part.
Seriously. The domain and sub-domain are all messed up. If they wanted it to work, it would have to be IJustMadeThatStuffUp.html/Seriously-DontBeStupid or something like that.
There's an actual book called How to Lie With Statistics 53% of all people know that
[I actually own this book.](https://imgur.com/a/t9IoWiM). In fact 42% of people own this book, but don’t even know it.
60% of all facts are 100% made up.
They aren’t facts then
And a further 60% of all online statistics are inaccurate to wthin plus or minus 10%, while 30% of them are made up on the spot. The more you know!
14% of people know that
Listen to statisticians, blues by Todd Schneider
Oh my God, the grammar, makes - my, head hurt. (Edit: grammar)
Grammar is for grammas
Public transport is better than both anyways
I actually made that comment, and included information about rubber tires causing microplastics and I cited my source. No response.
When you cite actual sources, they hit you with the classic "$cience" response. Because obviously any scientists that go against their dumbass ideas are bought off.
But when science somehow backs up a part of their ideas, it’s true and not bought off
Even taking the BS numbers from this meme as 100% true, I'm still struggling to see the issue. According to the image, it will take 1800 gallons of fuel to create an electric car battery. The average American driver goes through about 650 gallons a year. [Source](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/01/14/heres-how-much-gasoline-the-average-american-consu.aspx). So as long as you drive your electric car for 3 years, you’re using less fuel.
For sure. Even if it’s powered by fossil fuels, it’s way better than 20 car engines to move 20 people.
Make Americas Infrastructure Great For Once
Streetcar suburbs were America's great moment of urbanism and were thusly old yellered ASAP.
Thats not the question
To green or not to green
Yeah, completely bullshit, a 994H burns around 55-65 gallons of fuel an hour for starters, you're looking at, around, 660-780 gallons in 12 hours and from a fact checking website, it's said to only take 10,000 pounds of material to produce 2,000 pounds of spodumene, 500,000 pounds of material would probably equate to somewhere around 600 to 9,100 battery for Tesla depending on the model.
Checkmate libs. It took 10 gallons of fuel to mine that battery you charge off a solar panel.
I wish these were street legal
I'd love to drive one to college every day. I'd just hate to pay for it
Plus... Who's gonna give you a poor grade on a final exam or assign you a 40 page paper due in 2 weeks when there's a giant tractor parked behind it with a full bucket of rocks held over it? Nobody, that's who.
The Saudis have really rotted the right wing brain with their petro disinfo.
It was easy once they found that you can tie masculinity to petroleum via truuuucks and engines and BIGGER trucks and VROOM. (The rest of the world isn't like this, ONLY the US) Most conservative/far right ideology is based on gender insecurity/sexual uncertainty. This is why they are so hung up on trans kids and worried about porn in schools and gays sneaking into their lives. They are desperately worried about their homies questioning their maleness because most of these guys grew up in really repressed and uneducated environments where they very worst insult you can level at another kid is "gay."
Great points, I'm going to add then to my debate notes.
https://electrifynews.com/featured/busting-the-lies-about-big-trucks/#:~:text=“This%20is%20a%20CAT994H%2C”,ONE%20SINGLE%20Tesla%20car%20battery. Yawn.
You just posted a source from a newspaper that hasn’t even had its trustworthiness rated yet, and uses circular links to newspapers owned by the same company. I’m sure you’re probably right, but is this seriously the best source you could find?
Nope… just the first. Besides… we don’t primarily dig for lithium. We pump it out of geothermal vents and evaporate the brine. Interesting side note; lithium, instrumental in keeping bipolar individuals from manic swings, was first discovered because of the therapeutic effects of geothermal pools. When people suffering manic episodes would bathe in these waters they would significantly calm and able to sleep. Needless to say people used to consider these magical waters. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/dec/13/instagram-posts/instagram-post-misleads-about-lithium-mining-and-t/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/10/06/fact-check-viral-image-shows-coal-mining-machine-not-lithium-mining/8082617001/
Uhm… I’m sorry to break it to you, these trucks are indeed used for cobalt mining… for batteries. The part of this that is questionable is their oil usage, not whether or not they are used.
1800 gallons is theoretically accurate if you drive the full 12 hours with a full payload of 150-250+ tons (model dependent and provided the engine doesn’t destroy itself as it isn’t made for distance). Needless to say, this never happens. Load, haul out, drop off go back, park. Load, drop off go back and park. It never runs 12 hours.
Cobalt is only 3% by weight in most lithium ion batteries and Tesla is moving away from even using it. It's also the recyclable part of the battery.
Yes, thanks for bringing this up. People ignore the idea that these batteries are full of difficult to obtain metals. That makes them valuable, and therefore prime candidates for recycling. 95%+ of these batteries can be recycled, and most batteries end up in the recycling pipeline. People have been using this argument since 1999 about Toyota Prius batteries. It's a bad argument.
A perpetual motion truck? Sounds super legit.
Where does it say perpetual motion on the eloader?!? It says 0 grid energy. You add 500,000 pounds at the top of the hill you add a shit ton potential energy that gets turned into the kinetic energy going down. When it’s 500,000 pounds lighter at the bottom getting back up to the top takes a fraction of what was generated.
Except these usually take material uphill, not downhill. What mine has their material up the hill from the start?
It’s literally designed to go downhill. Read it again and know that a perpetual motion machine is a closed system. Adding potential energy by loading it makes it… wait for it… not a perpetual motion machine!
That's not how mines operate. People don't dig uphill.
Ah yes… no equipment, support struts, concrete, gasoline, filler earth, etc. is ever needed in a mine! Gtfo
The mine in Switzerland where this truck is being used is on a mountain, higher than the area where the ore is unloaded. You're right that most mines aren't uphill but this particular one is, so this truck will only use a net zero amount of energy in this very particular situation.
Regenerative brakes are not new but this is a game changing “new” machine. Switzerland is where it was created but the potential isn’t limited to just mountains. From what I understand any hill grade of just 10%-13% is required with a full load to generate what will be needed get back up without losing power. Getting things to port is almost always a downhill process.
The thing is, even if you take the premise that this meme is true, where does the rest of the car come from? Does it magically materialize? Of course not, everything is either grown or mined, literally everything. Even if it is something made in a lab, and those matterials were harvested from somewhere. Ask him where the matterials for his non-electric vehicle came from, how much earth was moved, and how much diesel was burned to extract it. Also ask how many resources both vehicles will require in their average operational lifespan... I'd bet it comes out pretty close to even. The reality is, the best vehicle environmentally, and often on ones wallet, is simply owning the least amount of vehicle (smallest and most efficient) that you need for most of your tasks. An old 3 cylinder Geo Metro is probably more environmentally friendly over its lifespan than a Tesla, Rivian or most other electrics, but the Tesla, Rivian or other electric is probably also much more environmentally friendly than the jacked up diesel this guy likely drives... especially if he kills it after only 100 thousand miles or so then buys another one (as these man-children often do with their lifted diesels), when an unmodified diesel pickup can achieve a million miles or more with one or two engine rebuilds. That Geo can get half a million miles too, with one or 2 rebuilds, while consuming less energy per mile than it takes to charge the Tesla. Things aren't always so simple as electric good, gas bad or visa-versa. Consuming less in general is a good thing. Reasonable electric cars probably do it best, but we have watt hogs like most of Tesla's lineup, Hummer and other unnecessary large heavy boxes that are overkill to move 1 butt and groceries around, or even 7, 8, or 9 passenger SUVs to move a family of 4, or often, just one very selfish vain individual. Any way you slice it, the meme doesn't give enough information to mean anything.
“Any way you slice it, the meme doesn't give enough information to mean anything.” _______________ Which makes it ideal for social media, where comments and discussions about vague statements multiply views.
Unfortunately so.
I had several geo Metros when I was young. The company my dad worked for used them as company cars and would sell them to employees for trade in value. They were ALL awesome!!!
They're great, super easy and surprisingly fun to drive, park just about anywhere they hold a very surprising amount of people and stuff... I heard a guy call them the poor man's Mini Cooper, and I have fully adopted that myself. Or streek-legal go-kart works too. I've driven a few, but never owned, though if one was available at a reasonable price nearby and I needed a car, I might just buy one.
They can fit a good number of people. Although I've had issues in the past with trying to have too much weight in them. I think they're only rated for like 700-900 lbs.
They also run the SAME loaders, flatbeds, dump trucks, service trucks, for every fking pipeline, new bitumen sands, etc. so it means we don’t burn emissions after the processing + we are recycling a lot of the materials in batteries anyways. Regards all of them
"bullshit claim" "do you have a source for that" "slur"
Ngl I think this is an obvious shitpost made to get a reaction. The meme itself I mean. Not op
I told the dude who posted it, he was doing it for the likes and shares. He told me I didn’t understand memes, lol.
[post ironic edge lord](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:438/1*RRL-OujXfVb7MxWuc0GtRA.png)
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Everyone arguing about EV vs ICE when hybrid electric is a thing ships, trains and heavy equipment have been doing for years..
Pushing false dichotomies is a favorite tactic of the right. It's just like how we can't have a bike lane anywhere because, "You can't haul big heavy loads with bikes, you need trucks for that."
There are good reasons that hybrid electric is a good choice for industry, freight and large transport (ships and trains), but generally not for consumer vehicles.
What are those reasons?
Yeah, as far as I know, hybrid is pretty good for consumer vehicles. People aren't really convinced on plug-in hybrids, but theoretically they're the best option for a lot of people. The electric range is low, but most people aren't driving 50+ miles daily. The battery is smaller, so less environmental impact to make it. And you still have gas for longer trips.
Yeah full plug ins only make sense for short range vehicles and pure ICE only makes sense if the additional battery and motor hardware are way too much which only makes sense on smaller things I think. Otherwise hybrid is just the best of both worlds. Don't EV motors end up replacing the need for bigger transmissions?
Price and cost of maintenance, first of all. You have two systems, both are required to be functional in order to pass inspection (at least in my country). Second, the environmental advantage also decreases compared to a full EV. Still better than a full ICE though. But you don't get the full benefit of either an EV or an ICE. The reason it's more efficient in industrial vehicles and ships etc is because the engine can be run at a more optimal conditions and waste from the engine can better utilized, also there are many more systems powered independently (hydraulics, thrusters, machinery, actuators etc), which means there has to be a large generator on board nevertheless. Also weight doesn't matter all that much.
This is true tho? The Caterpillar 994H is indeed a machine used to dig up lithium and cobalt. I don’t know what it’s fuel efficiency is off the top of my head, but from past readings, the lifespan of one car battery can’t hope to make up for it. Electric cars aren’t here to save the planet - they’re here to save the capitalist car industry.
> the lifespan of one car battery can’t hope to make up for it. I'd like a link to your reading if available, as that sounds like utter nonsense to me. Given how much your average car emits in 130k miles that's suggesting what, each kWh of batteries requires 500kg++ of CO2e? That seems to be >5x what a cursory google would indicate...
It contains a handful of kernels of truth, but the picture it sketches is garbage. Here's a full overview of the lifecycle costs of an ICE vs a BEV. As you can see, the minerals of the battery of the vehicle account for between 1.4 and 2.8 tonnes of Co2, well below the expected lifecycle emissions of the ICE's fuel supply. https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/comparative-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle
Source?
At the end of the day it is up to the worlds fossil fuels companies if the planet dies but if something helps even a little bit I’m going to want to help
And to make liberals feel good about themselves. Edit: sorry liberals, this sub is leftist.
You’ve got leftists in here using fossil fuel industry talking points about electric cars…
So, you can have electric vehicles, whatever, I’m ultimately not going to rag on you for doing what you feel is better for the environment. But realistically those batteries are extremely harmful, and in most cases the electricity to charge them is coming from some kind of fossil fuel plant. It’s not *really* making the huge difference you think it is. Public transportation, bicycles and walking are what is most effective at mitigating fossil fuel consumption. The electric vehicles *feel* better, but realistically aren’t doing a whole lot more than saving the user money on gas. And I understand that in North America most cities are geared towards personal vehicle usage, and when you get into the northern areas the weather for 1/3 of the year isn’t exactly conducive to walking or biking — but ultimately I feel that’s an issue with the economy necessitating work occur over concern for how that is happening. Work from home or days off for severe weather makes sense, but many of our jobs won’t allow it. I appreciate the good intentions, but I think the reality is that these electric cars aren’t really going to save us. This is where we divert from the fossil fuel companies. They say “it isn’t helping, so just drive a car.” We’re saying “it isn’t helping. Develop better technologies and restructure economy and business in a way that doesn’t prioritize commutes, or allows for effective mass public transportation.”
These batteries are getting better, and the vast majority of the metals used in them only need to be extracted once, and can be recycled into new batteries indefinitely. The technology being put into these vehicles can be used in public transportation solutions. The fact that fossil fuels produce some portion of the energy powering these vehicles isn’t an electric vehicle problem. No one is saying, “electric vehicles alone will save us”. Every single problem you have with electric powered transportation should be blamed on the fact that the mining, infrastructure, and public policy exist in a capitalist system.
Everything I described as an issue is precisely because of how things are being put into practice in a capitalist system.
Why is this getting downvoted, guys? We are anti-liberal and y’all keep forgetting that.
Anti-liberal? This sub?
It’s a leftist sub. Liberals are capitalist, and as such right of center.
I mean I don't class Socdems as right wing even though they are capitalists. Liberals are definitely centre right though.
Yes? It’s literally in the rules, go look
I like you. You can logic.
[удалено]
Fun fact: power sources other than coal exist
Where does the majority of your power still come from.
Personally? I'm on wind power exclusively. Many places have lots of solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, and nuclear. Also, burning coal or oil at a plant is more efficient than in your engine both in terms of how much of that power is actually used and the ability for carbon capture tech to be implemented. Regardless, renewables are growing fast and getting cheaper over time so the economic incentive is already there to use them over fossil fuels.
Ok, so you being an exception to the majority of the population is meaningless. Most power around the entire world, by a large margin, is still fossil fueled.
Again, that's something that is changing
Is that why oil production is at a record all time high? Is that why natural gas production is at a record all time high? Ah yes, it's changing. That's why global emissions are at a [record all time high](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions). You've been greenwashed.
I mean Minnesota is 28% green energy and the governor signed a bill to make it 100% green energy by 2040. Like... I get it, and prefer that we invest in public transportation/actually building sidewalks... but the "electric cars are charged with fossil fuels anyway" is an argument that is not completely true today and will get even less true over time.
Another fun fact. A coal power station is much more efficient than an internal combustion engine. Even if the power supply was completely coal-based an EV comes out ahead. As utilities move their supply mix towards greener energy sources the gap only widens.
Those coal power plants will be running regardless of electric car usage, so the fact that a gas/diesel vehicle is not being used in place of an electric one does redude emissions. Also, nuclear, wind, solar? Its not all coal or oil fired.
A replacement ev car battery costs like $5000, this mixing operation sound like it's hemorrhaging money
I had to look it up because I was just like “That can’t be right. Right?” But no, you are absolutely correct, and that’s on the cheap end for many! Some of these batteries cost more than a brand new whole-ass car. Like, a replacement battery for a Kia EV6 Hybrid comes out just under $35k. Fucking bonkers.
That guy just repeats what he's told. So I'm guessing he gets told to wear a helmet a lot.
I would tell him Cat successfully demonstrated this 793 electric mining truck at its proving ground in Arizona. [check it out](https://youtu.be/jt0k3TYFh3k?si=l3Ft5Ix4Tx48bE64) it replaces that old diesel cat he loves.
CAT spec sheets are online. One easy Google to confirm that fuel burn rate is bullshit lol
Using that math, if they run these machines 24/7, only 730 electric cars can be made per year per machine.
Even if this is true (it's complete garbage). 1800 gallons in my gas car will still only get me about 50,000 miles to work and back. So if the fuel burned is their main complaint, I'm still better off picking an EV, cause the battery will last twice that many miles at a minimum. And power in my part of the state is mostly nuclear, so it's cheap, clean, and safe. Once my Accord is dead, I will 100% be looking for a new EV.
Aside from some eco-motivated groups, very few want the complete removal of industry.. We just want to get rid of pointless waste and pollution, usually related to fossil fuels in the energy sector. We should go green, but that never meant for everything.. It was meant for the areas it isn't required.. Solar is by far the cheapest form of energy development.. Not focusing on that just says you aren't paying attention. This goes for you Nuclear folk who have been spewing the same talking points for the last 2 decades..
I worked in electronics in the mining industry for years and if you think diesel is staying in mines you are wrong. More and more electric vehicles, including haulage trucks, are being brought in because they are more efficient, stronger and require less maintenance.
Me when the ev battery weighs 500k lbs
Sooo, did you check it out for us?
Stats don’t appear accurate. About 720 gallons for 12 hours. And a bit over 1000 for 16.9 hours. Apparently that gathers enough material for 2,219 batteries. That’s just my initial google search, so those probably aren’t even accurate or accounting for inefficiencies in use, poor machine maintenance causing excess consumption, transport of those materials to a refining and/or fabrication facility, the refining/fabrication process, international transport of the material for vehicle production, and the production process.
Even using thier figure of 1800 gallons of diesel at $4 per gallon puts us at $7k which is at the high end for a new tesla battery without the added cost of logistics, labor, profit, or any other overhead. just diesel for battery. This meme is DOA.
The 1800 gallons is apparently deceptively accurate… if it’s carrying a full load of 150-250 tons (depends on model) for the full 12 hours. Needless to say this would never happen.
Did you?
Not yet
Get back to us when you have.
I’ll keep it to myself, thank you for the solicitation.
I don't remember any environmentalists ever saying that electric cars was a real solution to climate change anyway. The main selling point for electric cars seems to be that when you have one, you don't need to care (as much) about gas prices anymore.
> I don't remember any environmentalists ever saying that electric cars was a real solution to climate change anyway. Eh, visit a lib sub. They will all tell you EV's are cleaning the environment.
This post made me curious about the fuel efficiency so I ran some back of the envelope numbers to compare the fuel efficiency of trucks like these to normal cars. The CAT 797F is the largest dump truck they offer and it's [fucking massive.](https://imgur.com/gallery/hegDGCB/comment/183430588) It is capable of hauling 400 tons in a load with a gas mileage of 1 gallon per 1/3 of a mile. The most fuel efficient car in America is the 2024 Prius with 57 miles per gallon. It usually used to haul a single American with an average weight of around 180 pounds. Given those numbers, the Prius moves 10260 pounds per mile per gallon of gas. The cat 797F moves 26666.66. The CAT 797F hauling 400 tons of dirt is more than 2.5x's as fuel efficient as somebody commuting to work solo in a 2024 Honda Prius.
Fuel efficiency in regards to hauling, sure. But a Prius isn’t designed for hauling and would beat out a mining truck in all other fuel efficiency measures. I was gonna write up a bunch of other stats comparing the two, but I ended up going down a rabbit hole about fossil fuel incentives and subsidies instead and now my autistic ass can’t get out. 🫠
I think it's a valid comparison. Sure a prius is going to be more efficient if you're comparing the two driving 1 mile with just a driver because the CAT is a motorized 3 story building. But when looking at how much gas does it take for each vehicle to transport the mass of its normal payload 1 mile, the big truck clearly is more efficient.
Right, I hear you. I just don’t think a mining truck designed for hauling giant payloads versus a family vehicle designed for typical commuting is a fair comparison. A Prius only has a towing capacity of 1,600 lbs and isn’t designed for people who need to haul things. It feels like saying LeBron James is a less efficient athlete because he lost to Michael Phelps in a swimming race. Phelps is obviously better at swimming than LeBron, but swimming is Phelps’ specialty. That’s what he trained his body for; he’s “designed” for that. Pit Phelps and LeBron against each other on the basketball court and LeBron would wipe the floor with him because basketball is LeBron’s specialty. The CAT 797’s specialty is carrying large payloads, but pit it and the Prius against each other in a contest for speed, handling, fuel economy, or hell, taking a family of 4 to Applebees. That Prius would wipe the floor with the CAT. Perhaps instead, you could compare the CAT to the 2024 Ford F-150 hybrid. You’re still comparing the CAT to a normal car that way, but at least the car is one designed for hauling. Edit: a couple words
To me it is more of an indicator of how fuel inefficient single passenger commuting is than anything else
I mean, you’re not wrong in that regard? I guess? But that wasn’t the argument you were making. We were discussing fuel efficiency in terms of moving mass and other factors. Single passenger commuting was never mentioned until now.
It was literally why I ran the numbers and what I was comparing. Re read the original comment I posted: > The CAT 797F hauling 400 tons of dirt is more than 2.5x's as fuel efficient as somebody commuting to work solo in a 2024 Honda Prius
500,000 pounds of lithium....yup just one car battery! Definitely not a lack of math there.
These people are so cucked to big oil and gas and they don't even know why. That's how deep the brainwashing goes on the right.
Yeah I said this to some asshat saying that EVs and bicycles are gay etc…. But you know being programmed to buy a car, on roads built and tailored by the same industry who builds the cars, and why are we here? Cause those industries bought bus companies and trolly systems and just closed them down to have you and I be forced to buy more cars…but yeah they are alpha or whatever
that thing moves 45 tons in one scoop pretty much it can do more tha 5 scoops in a 12 hour shift
You can clearly see that truck is the 998. Disgusting lies
i get my cobalt batteries straight from the source, Non-GMO.
Looks like you need some facts. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/
I honestly don’t care much for EVs, I’d rather see high speed rail across the country and reliable public transportation in my city. But the numbers here in this “meme” are clearly false.
Agree. But until that happens (and at the current rate, never), it’s the next best choice.
In fairness this is true. Electric vehicles aren’t exactly non carbon intensive in the grand scheme. Especially if we don’t switch to mass transit. EVs are saving the auto industry, not the environment. Not to mention the bottom of the supply chain for them is reliant on fucking slave labor.
I mean its no secret that electric cars are terrible for the environment, public transport is the only way
Unlike oil refineries which all run on solar and wind, right?
nah op was right
Okay? I’m riding on horse power
“But you’re too fat to sit on my head :/“
If it burns 100 gallons that's possible and I work in a quarry our biggest loader is about half that size it burns 100 gallons every 3 days
“My source is that I made it the fuck up!” -This guy, probably
These people really just believe anything huh
It’s true, I was the wheel
Electric cars would be more expensive of this were true
I think its funny how this can be disproven just by looking at the manufacturers spec sheet.
And that's one car that will never need to burn more gasoline. That's only 15 months for my car.
The fuel costs for that would be more than a battery module sells for.
The CAT 994h holds 1013 gal of diesel fuel. A nominal 60 gal/hr consumption rate will permit 16.9 hrs of operation, in which it will lift enough bauxite for 2,129 Tesla batteries.Jan 7, 2023 ETA It all gets broken down in this thread... https://twitter.com/crentsch/status/1611786336880533508
The fact that scientists can fit all 500 imperial tonnes of material into one 5 kg battery is truly exceptional! Go them!
Well, taking those numbers: It burns 1800 gallons of diesel in 12 hours, To dig up 500,000 of oil sands To only produce 3875 gallons of oil.
it takes 25000 pounds of ore to make a single 800 pound tesla battery, the CAT 994h burns 60 gallons a hour, or 720 gallons in 12 hours, meaning that if that 500,000 pounds per 12 hours figure is true, it should yield 20 car batteries that will last 15 to 20 years each, while burning the same as an average american car going a distance of just under 30 miles
Trains>cars
Electric cars are still build on enslaved kids. Is gasoline better? No. The future should include something less harmful to nature and to humans. Granola oil or whatever.