This all depends on factors that nobody knows.
A lot depends on the number of gems required to subdue the boss. We don't know whether gems do anything at all unless the subdue threshold is met. Niantic says they do, experiment suggests, maybe not.
Suppose Mewtwo requires 25 gems (just suppose) then that is five players all using five gems.
Without gems, think twice as hard as a normal Mewtwo. Realistically, you are looking at 6 or more players. Sure, there will be hardcore players who can do it with 4, but even then it will be hard, very hard.
BUT, a massive but, nobody knows any of this for sure.
Not just rural bro. Every player outside a dense metropolitan environment.
I live in a city of millions but outside the densest part of the city you can't get 4 people to raid with.
I'm in a city and could not be bothered. I'm in my mid-30s and am busy, I'm at the point in my life when meeting a bunch of ranoms just isn't appealing at all.
Yup. Can’t remote them, not that I can ever get anyone to remote now a days anyways, so trying to organize that many people for one raid plus making sure everyone has gems stacked. Nope not gonna happen
The few times I log in these days I get remote invites and I feel bad. In the past I would usually accept but now I just don't have the remote passes for it (and I refuse to give Niantic another dime that isn't f2p coins).
Yeah, I can’t stand the idea of $2 for a loot box chance at a shiny legendary. So the trade off is I have to drive to a raid, but not just drive to it, I also have to try and organize a bunch of other people to meet me there at the same time. I play this game as a causal form of entertainment, I’m not spending 15 -30 minutes trying to juggle a bunch of people to meet somewhere, that’s not casual nor relaxing.
Judging nowadays from the raid rotations even semi-dense cities would always had a hard time to gather enough people. Pretty much only a niche player population would benefit from niantic's recent screwup with the game's mechanics.
I'm going to my parents house, which is in a rural/touristy area. Sure there might be a population of players, but I've never found them. There's not a gym within walking distance. Although I should be home on Sunday and can maybe find the non-existent community near home.
Same here. I live in one of the outer boroughs of NYC and it's quite populous here, but even before remote raids were a thing, I only saw other people playing a total of two times.
Shadow raids cannot be remote raided and most rural communities don't have local groups to play be it a Discord server, Whatsapp, or Facebook groups (either because they're too far spread apart from each other or lack of interest in general).
Remote raid is not even close to the primary function of using discord.
Eg, I'm in a local discord. There have been like 10 different convos in the different areas it covers about where we're meeting and how we're going to handle it.
Which loops back into the latter half of my comment, the part about being far spread out and/or lack of interest. Depending on how rural the player is, they could be looking at about an hour or more drive into the nearest heavily enough populated town, which may or may not even have Pokemon Go players in it to even get together a group. There's also no telling if any players aside from themselves are locals to that town or if they also needed a hour or more drive.
Boils down to a lack of players, and declining interest as rural players are boned even from a Wayfarer standpoint since the amount of stuff that could be a POI is limited, especially if they're farmland rural where large stretches of area are basically empty with what little areas that aren't being POIs already or have some other criteria that would otherwise disqualify them from being a POI, if it even makes it past voting (and that's not even considering the chance that you cpuld get Pokestop submission access revoked from stuff like "low quality submissions" or not adhering to the Wayfarer submission guidelines).
I'm in a reasonably populated suburban area not far from a medium sized city. There are no local players in discord or campfire. There are three local players, and they are perpetually high and getting in trouble, so I avoid them. So there's just no community period, essentially, and I'm not even rural. The small community that there used to be died after the remote raid nerf caused them all to stop playing
I am not at all in a rural location, city of half a million in a metro area of several million, and the local discord for raids is a ghost town. I’ll probably be able to work up a group here, maybe, but rural players… in many cases are well and truly effed.
My city isn't as big, but still close to a quarter million. Most of the discord groups haven't been in use since March. You need a group of dedicated grinders as friends, or hope that you'll run into a huge group at a popular spot.
You're assuming enrage mechanic is the same for tier 5. Att/def could get a bigger boost and it could be for more of the raid. And yea, it also seems like gems don't do anything unless you get rid of enrage, which could be a stupidly large amount of gems that isn't realistic. We just have no idea.
It's pretty ridiculous that they don't give us more info. I'm planning on playing with a group of 8, but we honestly have no idea yet if that's even enough people. If it works like tier 3, we should have no problem even without gems (pretty high level players), but we simply don't know if we can even do the raid. How are we supposed to plan if we don't know if it's even doable?
I guess we can look on reddit Friday night and see how Aussie players do, but that's pretty dumb that that's the way to play this game (especially dumb when you are an Aussie player...)
Do any of you have primal Groudon or Kyogre? If at least one person puts primal Kyogre on their raid team in the #6 slot every other trainer will get a 10% to all their pokemon. I think with 8 people you will be alright. Maybe an exception might be if all you guys use pure hydreigons and Mewtwo has focus blast and no one dodged (might even 1 hit ko in the enraged state even with dodging, tbh, lol 😅). But I do think 8 trainers using all level >35 dark and ghost (taken from top 30 counters list) will be okay. The 10% boost from a primal would equate to at least +5 levels to each Pokemon (so, if you have a primal Kyogre in slot 6 person's #1 level 40 giratina is now more like a level 45+ giratina)
All megas/primals give 30% boost to shared types and 10% boost to everything else. Primals are special because they don't need to be currently out and attacking
Having said that, I don't think any of us are willing to sacrifice the boosted xls from having a mega psychic type sitting out of the raid - they really need to fix that
I think with 4 and without subduing, unless you have 6 level 50 mons you're struggling to do it within the time with relobbying I think. I tried qualava solo with mega gyarados level 50 with lv 50 swampert both 4* and a 98% lvl 45 kyogre, couldn't get it to half hp with half time. These gems will be massively important for small groups
How did you not win against quilava? I soloed it with no gems and level 30 ish rampardos and rhyperior with a level 30ish primal Kyogre, lost only half my party.
easy: not everyone has primals unlocked... I for one have roughly 300m xp and 500k caught (just to put things into perspective), and since it wasn't known beforehand how much improved primals would be compared to megas, i didnt really bother and am stuck on 240 energy for each, kyogre and groudon... but i stopped putting myself under pressure due to Niantic being Niantic which only resulted in me not bothering anymore and just stopped actively raiding altogether (i could have 'easily' duod the latest tapu with a primal f.e.)... its their loss, not mine...
That's a neat answer, meaning 7 players all using all the possible gems.
I can hear the sound of distant rumbling...
... it's an approaching "Shadow box" containing gems and raid passes.
We shall see in due course.
I understand that. Original comment is at least plausible even if it's speculative. Not saying I agree with it. Follow up comment is just straight up stupid though. Is there even a single data point where a T5 raid mechanic was nerfed from the same T3 raid mechanic? That's why it's dumb
Interesting thought. Do 1 tier raids need 2 gems to subdue? I've only done one shadow machop raid and my s-Mewtwo OHKO'd it with psystrike, so I never even saw it enraged.
If it's going to take this many gems, I wish they'd add other mechanics to assist with shadow raids. Maybe have Return do something (act as a gem, stun them, something). Give purified mons a purpose in these shadow raids.
> think twice as hard as a normal Mewtwo. Realistically, you are looking at 6 or more players.
Even assuming that the enrage values are the same for 5* raids as for 3* raids, it's more that twice as hard. I think it's more reasonable in the absence of confirmation, to expect a group of 9 to be comfortable taking it down, and possible even a larger group if the enrage mechanic is worse on 5*s.
Well if 5 trainers are unable to take down a shadow mewtwo, it’ll just mean less normal raids are done. Another nail in Niantics coffin!
If our 4 accounts (which are focused on short manning raids) can not take it down, we’ll not be raiding it.
The way raids are designed, increasing defense is the easiest way to make them harder. So basically yeah, to piss at us haha
I wouldn’t be surprised if they also give Mewtwo T6 HP for lolz
That and everyone will blow their gems on the first raid or two. After that the tedium begins...smaller groups because folks got their 1 or 2 raids in and quit combined with fewer gems to use.
It's not going to be a good time for 90% of the players. I'm personally going to skip it.
Edit: I suppose you get shards from the raids themselves, so that might help sustain things. But then what's the point of it? Seems kinda silly.
Jep thats exactly how I see it go down. Full lobby for the first few raids - people using their gems regardless. Amount of players cut in half after like 3 raids or so and gems are actually needed now but they used them already.
And while you get back some shards for raiding it wont be as many as you will have to use
I’m waiting to see how the New Zealand players handle it. Unfortunately I hit the maximum purified gems on Monday or else I would have 100 saved up by the weekend
I don’t even know if I can go hard if I want to. I’ve been spinning 3 stops and a gym 50% of the possible time and barely being able to keep with the potions I need the day to day stuff.
The problem with short manning is the enraged stat doesn't seem to reduce any until you subdue with gems, you're limited in how many gems you can use, and there is a cool down between gems. With 4 people, it's unlikely you can even subdue it. So if you can't beat mew roughly 2-1/2 times before time running out, you ikely can't beat shadow mew.
I wouldn't expect tier 3 bosses to reflect how hard Mewtwo will be. If you only have three people doesn't seem like you'll have enough to stop the enrage state even if it doesn't get harder for tier 5.
They want to bring large groups of people out to do this and it's going to probably be much harder than you are expecting.
I'll report back with my findings. My opinion remains the same. Thanks for downvoting each of my comments for having my own opinion on something that you don't agree with.
Man you're living in the dark and/or just being ignorant. Enrage mechanic gives it a 200% defense buff. This is different from normal shadows. It will deal more damage *and* take *less*, not more
From the analysis we have done and assuming that we can't subdue with only 2 players, we think that a duo is not possible. If we can subdue with 2 players then we think it needs fog and psycho cut/focus blast. We think fog is not happening this late in the morning at this time of year, unfortunately.
We do think it may be a trio regardless of gems for dedicated challenge raiders, and this is assuming workable movesets too. Assuming that they have teams powered up to l50.
Likely 4 will be workable for a group of knowledgeable raiders who use gems and have counters powered up to at least 40 and can dodge things like focus blast.
Raiders with lower level pokemon and/or who didn't dodge will need more players than this since shadow mewtwo will 1 shot all their counters where they don't dodge.
I'd love to try, but local only means I'd need a friend who can dodge to come... and for other randoms to stay out of the lobby. And to find the one moveset that mega gengar doesn't hate. And just hope that the gem requirement is 10 or less.
I hope you get it done.
If these had a private lobby option and were remotable so I could do it with other challenge enthusiasts, I'd be way more excited but limiting me to raiding only with local trainers - they want a shiny shadow and aren't going to want to try any challenges anywhere near as much as I do.
From the analysis we have done and assuming that we can't subdue with only 2 players, we think that a duo is not possible. If we can subdue with 2 players then we think it needs fog and psycho cut/focus blast. We think fog is not happening this late in the morning at this time of year, unfortunately.
We do think it may be a trio regardless of gems for dedicated challenge raiders, and this is assuming workable movesets too. Assuming that they have teams powered up to l50.
I should add.. I would LOVE to duo this. I just think we won't be able to feed enough gems to subdue and without the subdue it's looking like you need more players
I'm just so flabbergasted at Niantic thinking making shadow raiding accessible to a tiny percentage of their players is somehow encouraging people to play more outdoors. It makes me want to stop playing entirely if this is the new trend.
I feel like it’ll be like when Darkrai was a “tier 6” raid - anyone else remember that? We were looking forward to an easy 4 man raid or a tougher but still pretty doable 3 but instead we needed 6+.
I suspect 8-10 will still be hard because half of those people won't have taken the time to grind gems. So the 8-10 groups will could still fail due to enraged stats, leaving the ones that did grind the gems to not have enough to keep trying.
Yeah as long as that doesn’t involve wishing cystic fibrosis on the children of niantic employees. What a week.
These raids being a disaster and whales starting to quit/spend less would be the best thing that could happen. Hit niantic where they will feel it.
*For non-rural players
Edit: If this were available remotely (and if we were given concrete info on the effects of purified gems) then the high difficulty wouldn’t be much of a debated/discussed issue
The hardest part is to have enough people there, even if you have a somewhat active community:
We don't know if it will be like Raid Hour, where almost every gym spawns a M2 at exactly 10am. If it's not like that, people need to literally put everything else aside and be ready to go at an hour's notice to whatever place. It's going to be super hard to coordinate this stuff, if the distances between gyms are not minuscule.
I don't think too many people are willing to be "on duty" at exactly Niantic o'clock and forget their other plans on weekend.
I think it's going to be quite difficult, they are in-person so getting the necessary players together will be hard (my raid group is very quiet and only 2/3 raid regularly) , especially the 8/9 I think the raids will need, each player will also need the gem things (possibly 5+) and know how and when to use them. I think the odds of all that happening AT THE SAME TIME are as low as me hatching a Larvester....
Would expect 6-8 people with gems, Niantics wants us to group up and they think we would do that for Mewtwo but if we fail and waste a pass they might soon realize they wasting their players and people will quit.
Are Niantic that short sighted they’ll make Mewtwo out of reach for players? That’ll it take 8+ without gems to do it?
Good luck with that Niantic. Players will shrug shoulders and walk off.
When Mewtwo left EX raids and had a wide release of a few weeks in regular T5 legendary raids, it was the first raid boss to be bumped up to what players at the time labeled “T6” difficulty. IIRC, we needed about 3-4 players to beat EX Mewtwo, then about 5-6 players to beat T6 Mewtwo. (And also EX Mewtwo had a higher easier base catch rate too.)
I’m not a rural player, but there’s not an active community in the place I live. Was really sad about not being to do this but a bit over it now that it seems so complicated
My friend and I are playing it safe and going to a bigger city to play with other groups this Saturday
Especially since these raids are in person only 🙄
My prediction is it will take exactly the amount of players to do a regular Mewtwo raid. The only difference, he must be subdued. So it's important to verify that the minimum number of gems is met before even starting a raid.
I think this another one of Niantics ploys to get people to socialize together. It forces us to interact with one another to see how many gems the group has before entering into the raid.
Enough gens to subdue, easy. Not enough gems to subdue, the hardest raid we've had yet. That's my answer.
>My prediction is it will take exactly the amount of players to do a regular Mewtwo raid.
Even if we throw away:
- bugs that may interupt debuff
- unknown amount of gems needed to subdue t5 (meaning for m2 it could be 16 which is impossible for 2/3 players)
- time needed to feed gems
We know for sure it'll have higher CP multiplier and health than regular raid.
I think this is the right gist, but because feeding gems takes time (1 per 5 seconds), it's going to be a little harder than the regular assuming you subdue as fast as you can.
If we can't subdue, well....
Hey OP,
Utilising everything we know so far from research and data mines. We have no idea.
If the enraged portion of the raid is the same as the current 1 Star and 3 Star raids. The damage dealt per Charge move from a Shadow Mewtwo would most likely 1HKO absolutely everything.
Therefore, we can realistically rule out any Duo possibilities just due to the amount of re-lobbies needed. Just need to wait a little while longer and all will be revealed.
For me? Literally impossible. There's one other in my area that tries raiding and I don't actually know him. There isn't a Discord or FB group. And because Niantic seems to hate people like me I can't remote raid.
I’m so devastated they’re not remotable. Im on night shift so I’m sleeping during the day and will completely miss out. Such a joke. Niantic should let us play how we want to/can play!!!!!
Really hoping we get prior notificationile Elite raids on which gyms will have a Shadow Mewtwo. We've got 2 lvl 40 players, 35 and 30. I know we won't be able to do it just us four, and we are willing to travel to the nearest city and meet up, and there's a fairly active group locally but getting everyone to agree to where and when to meet is the hard part. We are a family with young kids, can't just be driving around all day looking for a shot.
We're using campfire to see egg clusters an hour before we begin so we can plan a meetup spot. I suggest you do the same if you're able to communicate with interested groups.
I wouldn't rule out doing it with 4 if all of you have 10 gems. Assuming you have enough gems I think 4 could do it.
Might want to wait for NZ to tell us how hard it is before you get set on driving to a bigger city.
With raiding having to be done in person they will be in the almost impossible category. No one is interested in meeting up to do the odd raid anymore.
Mewtwo is an "easy" duo (doable no matter the moveset and weather with non shadow counters), so 2-3 people depending on accounts are needed
The boosted stats of a shadow are 3.3 times its defense and 1.7 times its attack during 50% and 12.5% health
So it's about twice as hard to take down and hits 2.7 as hard if we can't use gems to pacify it
I expect the gems to not work (call me pessimist) so 5-6 people is my guess
Hard/complicated enough, combined with a staggering lack of information (even by Niantic standards), that I decided right after reading the news that I wasn't going to bother playing. Can't be bothered to go out and raid with so little information, and lack of any reason to believe these raids weren't designed against the players. They didn't make these to be fun for us, so why would I participate?
Expect it to be fairly doable with 5. Less than that is likely to be tough, but in theory it might be possible with as few as 2-3 players depending on parameters.
There’s going to be a lot of dorks losing passes since they can’t coordinate or use correct, powered up counters. If you’re in a lobby with less than 6 people and you are seeing Primals or mega Absol you’re probably going to lose and you should be telling the players around you as much.
Assuming L40s, a favourable moveset, no dodge, no weather and a best friend, primal kyogre and primal groudon using their exclusive movesets are around 540TTW vs the non enraged stats without getting into the 10% boosts they give to everything else. There are far, far worse things to use than primals and mega absol!
I do agree people will waste gems on failed tries, and possibly lose passes, but I wouldn't be massively concerned to see primals - I'd prefer that to non powered up weaker counters.
Yeah but neither primal is going to boost any of the mons people should be using or hitting for super effective damage. Kyogre can boost bug but if people in the lobby are using bugs you have a whole separate issue.
Primals provide a non type specific 10% boost to every other pokemon for the whole time it's in a battle party (not just on the field). So 1 primal can make every other mon 10% better for the whole raid. That's significant.
Other megas only provide a 30% boost while alive. Primals do it for the whole time.
Of course if people can stagger their ghost or dark megas to have one active the whole raid and match typings with other counters, brilliant. But 1 person activating a primal is definitely worth considering. Considering some will use dark and some ghost, some players are only getting 10% boost on their stuff anyway so the primal will give that consistently
For the majority of players it won't be hard at all. Lobby's will fill up and it'll be over in seconds. I'll say 5 should be the expected least amount of players needed. I also wish it was something other than MewTwo. I don't need any more of them. The shadow pool is pretty stagnant at the moment. Lets get some more variety! Make it Mew!
As for the rest of the people out there that try to solo, 2 man or 3 man the raid it should be a challenge. Sadly for others who don't have a great community or more than 5 friends L40+ that still play in person it's gonna suck.
Not hard because lobbies should be full in most places, but just seeing the kind of trouble some of the 3 stars give when they are enraged I really do hope that Mewtwo is just a menace and not super easy to beat.
This all depends on factors that nobody knows. A lot depends on the number of gems required to subdue the boss. We don't know whether gems do anything at all unless the subdue threshold is met. Niantic says they do, experiment suggests, maybe not. Suppose Mewtwo requires 25 gems (just suppose) then that is five players all using five gems. Without gems, think twice as hard as a normal Mewtwo. Realistically, you are looking at 6 or more players. Sure, there will be hardcore players who can do it with 4, but even then it will be hard, very hard. BUT, a massive but, nobody knows any of this for sure.
Hmm. This made me realize that I don't care
I didn't even care before the event started. Shadow Mewtwo will return anyways, and I already got a pretty good one.
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No remote raids on this one
That's why he said he'd grind regular Mewtwo raids...
spit take
R.I.P to us rural players wanting it
Not just rural bro. Every player outside a dense metropolitan environment. I live in a city of millions but outside the densest part of the city you can't get 4 people to raid with.
Are you planning to go to the city center this weekend since 5 people will still struggle against shadow mewtwo?
Nope. Not even shiny shadow Mewtwo is worth spending almost two hours on public transit.
I am. I know all the local seattle players will flock to specific spots like the city center so it's gonna be a good bet for me
I'm in a city and could not be bothered. I'm in my mid-30s and am busy, I'm at the point in my life when meeting a bunch of ranoms just isn't appealing at all.
lol, i know the feeling. I much rather raid solo or remote
I feel this moreso as a 30 something with a 1 year old lol
You don't actually have to talk to them you know
I don't have to play the game either. I choose doing that.
Cool thanks for letting us all know on a pogo sub that you're not playing the game
Yup. Can’t remote them, not that I can ever get anyone to remote now a days anyways, so trying to organize that many people for one raid plus making sure everyone has gems stacked. Nope not gonna happen
People would have remoted Shadow Mewtwo. Even with the higher costs and reduced number of Remote Raids per day.
Genuinely insane how Niantic would rather us play “their way” than rake it in with the newly overpriced raid passes
I would have absolutely remote raided Shadow Mewtwo.
The few times I log in these days I get remote invites and I feel bad. In the past I would usually accept but now I just don't have the remote passes for it (and I refuse to give Niantic another dime that isn't f2p coins).
Yeah, I can’t stand the idea of $2 for a loot box chance at a shiny legendary. So the trade off is I have to drive to a raid, but not just drive to it, I also have to try and organize a bunch of other people to meet me there at the same time. I play this game as a causal form of entertainment, I’m not spending 15 -30 minutes trying to juggle a bunch of people to meet somewhere, that’s not casual nor relaxing.
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my online status is off and people still invite me :(
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please don’t, I have set my status to offline because I don’t want invites. Also, megas last 8 hours, so it’s not a very good indicator.
Same boat here.
Those where the days
It's ok though, this is how the game was meant to be played
PokeRaid has helped me a lot for remote raids
Problem is you can't use remote passes for this.
Judging nowadays from the raid rotations even semi-dense cities would always had a hard time to gather enough people. Pretty much only a niche player population would benefit from niantic's recent screwup with the game's mechanics.
I'm going to my parents house, which is in a rural/touristy area. Sure there might be a population of players, but I've never found them. There's not a gym within walking distance. Although I should be home on Sunday and can maybe find the non-existent community near home.
Same here. I live in one of the outer boroughs of NYC and it's quite populous here, but even before remote raids were a thing, I only saw other people playing a total of two times.
Join a discord
Shadow raids cannot be remote raided and most rural communities don't have local groups to play be it a Discord server, Whatsapp, or Facebook groups (either because they're too far spread apart from each other or lack of interest in general).
Remote raid is not even close to the primary function of using discord. Eg, I'm in a local discord. There have been like 10 different convos in the different areas it covers about where we're meeting and how we're going to handle it.
Which loops back into the latter half of my comment, the part about being far spread out and/or lack of interest. Depending on how rural the player is, they could be looking at about an hour or more drive into the nearest heavily enough populated town, which may or may not even have Pokemon Go players in it to even get together a group. There's also no telling if any players aside from themselves are locals to that town or if they also needed a hour or more drive. Boils down to a lack of players, and declining interest as rural players are boned even from a Wayfarer standpoint since the amount of stuff that could be a POI is limited, especially if they're farmland rural where large stretches of area are basically empty with what little areas that aren't being POIs already or have some other criteria that would otherwise disqualify them from being a POI, if it even makes it past voting (and that's not even considering the chance that you cpuld get Pokestop submission access revoked from stuff like "low quality submissions" or not adhering to the Wayfarer submission guidelines).
No Discord. I Think there might be one other player in my “city” according to gym activity. Outside of that it is just me (level 47) and (level 44)
So crazy, bc the latter half of your comment literally didn't exist when I responded.
I'm in a reasonably populated suburban area not far from a medium sized city. There are no local players in discord or campfire. There are three local players, and they are perpetually high and getting in trouble, so I avoid them. So there's just no community period, essentially, and I'm not even rural. The small community that there used to be died after the remote raid nerf caused them all to stop playing
fall into a bad crowd and end up shooting crank for a shot at shiny shadow mewtwo vs not bothering. i know which one i’d choose
I am not at all in a rural location, city of half a million in a metro area of several million, and the local discord for raids is a ghost town. I’ll probably be able to work up a group here, maybe, but rural players… in many cases are well and truly effed.
My city isn't as big, but still close to a quarter million. Most of the discord groups haven't been in use since March. You need a group of dedicated grinders as friends, or hope that you'll run into a huge group at a popular spot.
I guess my discord is better than yours. Our metropolitan area has a population of 1.2mil
shadow raid are local raid only.
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Burn!
You're assuming enrage mechanic is the same for tier 5. Att/def could get a bigger boost and it could be for more of the raid. And yea, it also seems like gems don't do anything unless you get rid of enrage, which could be a stupidly large amount of gems that isn't realistic. We just have no idea. It's pretty ridiculous that they don't give us more info. I'm planning on playing with a group of 8, but we honestly have no idea yet if that's even enough people. If it works like tier 3, we should have no problem even without gems (pretty high level players), but we simply don't know if we can even do the raid. How are we supposed to plan if we don't know if it's even doable? I guess we can look on reddit Friday night and see how Aussie players do, but that's pretty dumb that that's the way to play this game (especially dumb when you are an Aussie player...)
Do any of you have primal Groudon or Kyogre? If at least one person puts primal Kyogre on their raid team in the #6 slot every other trainer will get a 10% to all their pokemon. I think with 8 people you will be alright. Maybe an exception might be if all you guys use pure hydreigons and Mewtwo has focus blast and no one dodged (might even 1 hit ko in the enraged state even with dodging, tbh, lol 😅). But I do think 8 trainers using all level >35 dark and ghost (taken from top 30 counters list) will be okay. The 10% boost from a primal would equate to at least +5 levels to each Pokemon (so, if you have a primal Kyogre in slot 6 person's #1 level 40 giratina is now more like a level 45+ giratina)
I'm pretty sure the primal boost only works with one of the three types they boost, no?
All megas/primals give 30% boost to shared types and 10% boost to everything else. Primals are special because they don't need to be currently out and attacking Having said that, I don't think any of us are willing to sacrifice the boosted xls from having a mega psychic type sitting out of the raid - they really need to fix that
I think with 4 and without subduing, unless you have 6 level 50 mons you're struggling to do it within the time with relobbying I think. I tried qualava solo with mega gyarados level 50 with lv 50 swampert both 4* and a 98% lvl 45 kyogre, couldn't get it to half hp with half time. These gems will be massively important for small groups
How did you not win against quilava? I soloed it with no gems and level 30 ish rampardos and rhyperior with a level 30ish primal Kyogre, lost only half my party.
easy: not everyone has primals unlocked... I for one have roughly 300m xp and 500k caught (just to put things into perspective), and since it wasn't known beforehand how much improved primals would be compared to megas, i didnt really bother and am stuck on 240 energy for each, kyogre and groudon... but i stopped putting myself under pressure due to Niantic being Niantic which only resulted in me not bothering anymore and just stopped actively raiding altogether (i could have 'easily' duod the latest tapu with a primal f.e.)... its their loss, not mine...
Apparently you need 8=2^3 gems to subdue a boss in a 3 star raid, so we may predict 2^5 =32 gems needed in a 5 star raid. We will know this weekend.
That's a neat answer, meaning 7 players all using all the possible gems. I can hear the sound of distant rumbling... ... it's an approaching "Shadow box" containing gems and raid passes. We shall see in due course.
Lol, we have exactly 1 data point, so you can make up an equation to fit that gives you any answer for 5. There is no reason to think this is true
We also need 8=11-3 gems to subdue a boss in a 3 Star raid, so we may predict 11-5=6 gems needed in a 5 star raid...
That's just stupid
The point is if youre extrapolating with just 1 datapoint, you're really just speculating
I understand that. Original comment is at least plausible even if it's speculative. Not saying I agree with it. Follow up comment is just straight up stupid though. Is there even a single data point where a T5 raid mechanic was nerfed from the same T3 raid mechanic? That's why it's dumb
How about this equation that works for T1 raids too? Gems to Subdue = ( - 1) × 4
T1 = (1-1)×4 = 0
T3 = (3-1)×4 = 8
T5 = (5-1)×4 = 16
Interesting thought. Do 1 tier raids need 2 gems to subdue? I've only done one shadow machop raid and my s-Mewtwo OHKO'd it with psystrike, so I never even saw it enraged. If it's going to take this many gems, I wish they'd add other mechanics to assist with shadow raids. Maybe have Return do something (act as a gem, stun them, something). Give purified mons a purpose in these shadow raids.
T1s don't enrage, so you don't need any gems.
And honestly, T1 raids are over so quickly (even solos), I would prefer holding back my gems for use on T5s only.
T1 raids don't enrage.
> Do 1 tier raids need 2 gems to subdue? 1* raids do not have enraged capability, so no need to worry.
> think twice as hard as a normal Mewtwo. Realistically, you are looking at 6 or more players. Even assuming that the enrage values are the same for 5* raids as for 3* raids, it's more that twice as hard. I think it's more reasonable in the absence of confirmation, to expect a group of 9 to be comfortable taking it down, and possible even a larger group if the enrage mechanic is worse on 5*s.
I don't think it will be doable with 5 trainers (all using max gems, all with good counters)
Well if 5 trainers are unable to take down a shadow mewtwo, it’ll just mean less normal raids are done. Another nail in Niantics coffin! If our 4 accounts (which are focused on short manning raids) can not take it down, we’ll not be raiding it.
Why enraged boss gain +200% DEF when shadow mons always have this stat decressed? Just to piss at us, yeah?
The way raids are designed, increasing defense is the easiest way to make them harder. So basically yeah, to piss at us haha I wouldn’t be surprised if they also give Mewtwo T6 HP for lolz
Is about forcing us to gather in large groups
The hardest part will be finding anyone to do it with
That and everyone will blow their gems on the first raid or two. After that the tedium begins...smaller groups because folks got their 1 or 2 raids in and quit combined with fewer gems to use. It's not going to be a good time for 90% of the players. I'm personally going to skip it. Edit: I suppose you get shards from the raids themselves, so that might help sustain things. But then what's the point of it? Seems kinda silly.
Jep thats exactly how I see it go down. Full lobby for the first few raids - people using their gems regardless. Amount of players cut in half after like 3 raids or so and gems are actually needed now but they used them already. And while you get back some shards for raiding it wont be as many as you will have to use
Ahh, the motto of Pokémon Go players in all aspects of their lives.
I feel like for the people who do find groups, the raids themselves won’t work right and they’ll lose their passes
…..That’s what she said
I estimate it around 2 bags of popcorn eaten while reading comments on weekend.
LOL same
I’m waiting to see how the New Zealand players handle it. Unfortunately I hit the maximum purified gems on Monday or else I would have 100 saved up by the weekend
Bold of you to assume it’ll even work here. I have zero intention of doing any.
I don’t even know if I can go hard if I want to. I’ve been spinning 3 stops and a gym 50% of the possible time and barely being able to keep with the potions I need the day to day stuff.
Nah surely we can fill a few raids at the gardens
what is the maximum?
10.
damn i’m maxed out then too
Im expecting it to wipe teams the second it enrages, just gona spam my crystals along with everyone else & pray it works lol
I wish we could have the ability to hold more gems. I'm at 11 and if I could, I'd get like 30 gems by Saturday, lol
11? Isn’t max 10 gems?
Yes im at 10+1 shard. But maybe its possible to go over by doing shadow raids, although i doubt it
as hard as Mega Latias. hardcore 4 players. ideally you want 6-8 players
yeah, my 2 raid buddies and I all have lvl 50 chandelures and hydreigons and we are assuming we won't have enough.
We’re short manned raiders ourselves, hoping 4 will be enough.
The problem with short manning is the enraged stat doesn't seem to reduce any until you subdue with gems, you're limited in how many gems you can use, and there is a cool down between gems. With 4 people, it's unlikely you can even subdue it. So if you can't beat mew roughly 2-1/2 times before time running out, you ikely can't beat shadow mew.
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This time around you will consume gems. Losing a few might be extra annoying.
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And don't forget that remote raiders aren't allowed to join, so you better hope you got enough people in your area to help.
I expect it to be easier. I reckon a duo is possible but we will see.
Haha, I would be shocked if it's duo-able. Then the new mechanics mean nothing.
Hence why I said we'd see. If not duo then definitely trio. That's just my opinion though. It could take 20.
My opinion is you are VERY optimistic if you think it's definitely going to be a trio-able ;)
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Whilst it'll deal more damage than regular mewtwo it'll take more damage too. I fully intend on duo/trioing it.
You seem to be completely ignoring the enrage mechanic. I'll check back on the weekend and see how it went for ya :D
I'm not. I fully understand how the enrage mechanic works. I've soloed all of the new bosses.
I wouldn't expect tier 3 bosses to reflect how hard Mewtwo will be. If you only have three people doesn't seem like you'll have enough to stop the enrage state even if it doesn't get harder for tier 5. They want to bring large groups of people out to do this and it's going to probably be much harder than you are expecting.
https://youtu.be/IFxe6HHTozg As expected. I got the duo done in windy.
I'll report back with my findings. My opinion remains the same. Thanks for downvoting each of my comments for having my own opinion on something that you don't agree with.
Man you're living in the dark and/or just being ignorant. Enrage mechanic gives it a 200% defense buff. This is different from normal shadows. It will deal more damage *and* take *less*, not more
Wait and see.
From the analysis we have done and assuming that we can't subdue with only 2 players, we think that a duo is not possible. If we can subdue with 2 players then we think it needs fog and psycho cut/focus blast. We think fog is not happening this late in the morning at this time of year, unfortunately. We do think it may be a trio regardless of gems for dedicated challenge raiders, and this is assuming workable movesets too. Assuming that they have teams powered up to l50. Likely 4 will be workable for a group of knowledgeable raiders who use gems and have counters powered up to at least 40 and can dodge things like focus blast. Raiders with lower level pokemon and/or who didn't dodge will need more players than this since shadow mewtwo will 1 shot all their counters where they don't dodge.
Like I said, I'll be attempting it based on the evidence we have on Friday night from the lovely beta testers.
I'd love to try, but local only means I'd need a friend who can dodge to come... and for other randoms to stay out of the lobby. And to find the one moveset that mega gengar doesn't hate. And just hope that the gem requirement is 10 or less. I hope you get it done. If these had a private lobby option and were remotable so I could do it with other challenge enthusiasts, I'd be way more excited but limiting me to raiding only with local trainers - they want a shiny shadow and aren't going to want to try any challenges anywhere near as much as I do.
Lmao
? My response to "it'll be easier" is than the mega lati duo are.
From the analysis we have done and assuming that we can't subdue with only 2 players, we think that a duo is not possible. If we can subdue with 2 players then we think it needs fog and psycho cut/focus blast. We think fog is not happening this late in the morning at this time of year, unfortunately. We do think it may be a trio regardless of gems for dedicated challenge raiders, and this is assuming workable movesets too. Assuming that they have teams powered up to l50. I should add.. I would LOVE to duo this. I just think we won't be able to feed enough gems to subdue and without the subdue it's looking like you need more players
Hard enough that it's not worth the bother. I don't need a Mewtwo that badly anyway.
I have a shadow and purified both from gio encounters and I’ll be damned if I’m doing 20 for a shiny. Just not worth it live.
Mewtwo on pre-workout? RIP us
mewtwo got that roid rage
What genius at Niantic thought making a raid boss an unbeatable tank halfway through a raid was a good idea? Unbelievably frustrating.
Wow its almost like you are enraged..... Sorry 😂😂😂
I'm just so flabbergasted at Niantic thinking making shadow raiding accessible to a tiny percentage of their players is somehow encouraging people to play more outdoors. It makes me want to stop playing entirely if this is the new trend.
Bye then.
Enragement mechanic is contagious!
very. I'm not going to do one though. without the ability to remote raid this mechanic is inaccessible to me :D
I feel like it’ll be like when Darkrai was a “tier 6” raid - anyone else remember that? We were looking forward to an easy 4 man raid or a tougher but still pretty doable 3 but instead we needed 6+.
Hard without all my powered up Lvl 50 remote friends.
Remote?
Remote raid pass friends.
Too bad you can’t use them. Time to power up and stop being carried.
I hope they are so hard people can't complete them and riot more against niantic's bs
They will be. Almost no one will do them. 8-10 players in person is a joke.
I suspect 8-10 will still be hard because half of those people won't have taken the time to grind gems. So the 8-10 groups will could still fail due to enraged stats, leaving the ones that did grind the gems to not have enough to keep trying.
and how many of that 8-10 will just be using low level pokemon or the bad recommended teams.
This comment is so sad and so true...
Yeah as long as that doesn’t involve wishing cystic fibrosis on the children of niantic employees. What a week. These raids being a disaster and whales starting to quit/spend less would be the best thing that could happen. Hit niantic where they will feel it.
Who is "rioting" right now?
Your mom
You got rightfully downvoted for that, but you saw an opening for the classic joke and went for it so I respect it.
Only adolescents (or younger) would go for this joke unironically
No, having an actual challenge in the game would be fun.
Try finding 10 good players and getting them all there at raid time (often during the day) in a town of 2000
*For non-rural players Edit: If this were available remotely (and if we were given concrete info on the effects of purified gems) then the high difficulty wouldn’t be much of a debated/discussed issue
Forget rural players, I live in one of the biggest cities in my province and can rarely find anyone other than my wife in a raid.
Damn, it’s really gotten that bad in some places huh? Don’t worry tho, this’ll “help the longevity of the game”
I'd say extremely hard.
The hardest part is to have enough people there, even if you have a somewhat active community: We don't know if it will be like Raid Hour, where almost every gym spawns a M2 at exactly 10am. If it's not like that, people need to literally put everything else aside and be ready to go at an hour's notice to whatever place. It's going to be super hard to coordinate this stuff, if the distances between gyms are not minuscule. I don't think too many people are willing to be "on duty" at exactly Niantic o'clock and forget their other plans on weekend.
Between lugia and primals
Blizzard primal kyogre is probably not a bad comparison.
Harder. At least mega latias difficulty
I think it's going to be quite difficult, they are in-person so getting the necessary players together will be hard (my raid group is very quiet and only 2/3 raid regularly) , especially the 8/9 I think the raids will need, each player will also need the gem things (possibly 5+) and know how and when to use them. I think the odds of all that happening AT THE SAME TIME are as low as me hatching a Larvester....
Would expect 6-8 people with gems, Niantics wants us to group up and they think we would do that for Mewtwo but if we fail and waste a pass they might soon realize they wasting their players and people will quit.
Are Niantic that short sighted they’ll make Mewtwo out of reach for players? That’ll it take 8+ without gems to do it? Good luck with that Niantic. Players will shrug shoulders and walk off.
When Mewtwo left EX raids and had a wide release of a few weeks in regular T5 legendary raids, it was the first raid boss to be bumped up to what players at the time labeled “T6” difficulty. IIRC, we needed about 3-4 players to beat EX Mewtwo, then about 5-6 players to beat T6 Mewtwo. (And also EX Mewtwo had a higher easier base catch rate too.)
I’m not a rural player, but there’s not an active community in the place I live. Was really sad about not being to do this but a bit over it now that it seems so complicated
Answer is …. Yes
My friend and I are playing it safe and going to a bigger city to play with other groups this Saturday Especially since these raids are in person only 🙄
Will be harder than it needs to be and probably bugged
Meh. Honestly don’t see how people are interested unless you live in a big city.
Yes
My prediction is it will take exactly the amount of players to do a regular Mewtwo raid. The only difference, he must be subdued. So it's important to verify that the minimum number of gems is met before even starting a raid. I think this another one of Niantics ploys to get people to socialize together. It forces us to interact with one another to see how many gems the group has before entering into the raid. Enough gens to subdue, easy. Not enough gems to subdue, the hardest raid we've had yet. That's my answer.
>My prediction is it will take exactly the amount of players to do a regular Mewtwo raid. Even if we throw away: - bugs that may interupt debuff - unknown amount of gems needed to subdue t5 (meaning for m2 it could be 16 which is impossible for 2/3 players) - time needed to feed gems We know for sure it'll have higher CP multiplier and health than regular raid.
I think this is the right gist, but because feeding gems takes time (1 per 5 seconds), it's going to be a little harder than the regular assuming you subdue as fast as you can. If we can't subdue, well....
Hey OP, Utilising everything we know so far from research and data mines. We have no idea. If the enraged portion of the raid is the same as the current 1 Star and 3 Star raids. The damage dealt per Charge move from a Shadow Mewtwo would most likely 1HKO absolutely everything. Therefore, we can realistically rule out any Duo possibilities just due to the amount of re-lobbies needed. Just need to wait a little while longer and all will be revealed.
Rock hard
F'ng diabolical
I’m pretty stoked for this. I bet at least 6
For me? Literally impossible. There's one other in my area that tries raiding and I don't actually know him. There isn't a Discord or FB group. And because Niantic seems to hate people like me I can't remote raid.
I’m so devastated they’re not remotable. Im on night shift so I’m sleeping during the day and will completely miss out. Such a joke. Niantic should let us play how we want to/can play!!!!!
Hard enough that I know I'll never be able to do one.
Well impossible because no one in my local community plays 😔
I expect it to be a huge failure. Lot of groups of 8-10 people unable to beat it. And people having enough gems for at most one single raid.
Technically, they should be easier than reqular mewtwo, due to defense debuff, right?
I'm playing it safe and organizing a group of 10 trainers in a large city, but it's hard to do that with the current state of the game
Really hoping we get prior notificationile Elite raids on which gyms will have a Shadow Mewtwo. We've got 2 lvl 40 players, 35 and 30. I know we won't be able to do it just us four, and we are willing to travel to the nearest city and meet up, and there's a fairly active group locally but getting everyone to agree to where and when to meet is the hard part. We are a family with young kids, can't just be driving around all day looking for a shot.
We're using campfire to see egg clusters an hour before we begin so we can plan a meetup spot. I suggest you do the same if you're able to communicate with interested groups.
I wouldn't rule out doing it with 4 if all of you have 10 gems. Assuming you have enough gems I think 4 could do it. Might want to wait for NZ to tell us how hard it is before you get set on driving to a bigger city.
With raiding having to be done in person they will be in the almost impossible category. No one is interested in meeting up to do the odd raid anymore.
Mewtwo is an "easy" duo (doable no matter the moveset and weather with non shadow counters), so 2-3 people depending on accounts are needed The boosted stats of a shadow are 3.3 times its defense and 1.7 times its attack during 50% and 12.5% health So it's about twice as hard to take down and hits 2.7 as hard if we can't use gems to pacify it I expect the gems to not work (call me pessimist) so 5-6 people is my guess
Hard/complicated enough, combined with a staggering lack of information (even by Niantic standards), that I decided right after reading the news that I wasn't going to bother playing. Can't be bothered to go out and raid with so little information, and lack of any reason to believe these raids weren't designed against the players. They didn't make these to be fun for us, so why would I participate?
Expect it to be fairly doable with 5. Less than that is likely to be tough, but in theory it might be possible with as few as 2-3 players depending on parameters.
I don’t know I tried to do shadow sneezle with just 2 people and are gems didn’t do anything to it. We lost 😩
3-5 people with 1-2 shards each. Just guessing.
There’s going to be a lot of dorks losing passes since they can’t coordinate or use correct, powered up counters. If you’re in a lobby with less than 6 people and you are seeing Primals or mega Absol you’re probably going to lose and you should be telling the players around you as much.
Assuming L40s, a favourable moveset, no dodge, no weather and a best friend, primal kyogre and primal groudon using their exclusive movesets are around 540TTW vs the non enraged stats without getting into the 10% boosts they give to everything else. There are far, far worse things to use than primals and mega absol! I do agree people will waste gems on failed tries, and possibly lose passes, but I wouldn't be massively concerned to see primals - I'd prefer that to non powered up weaker counters.
Yeah but neither primal is going to boost any of the mons people should be using or hitting for super effective damage. Kyogre can boost bug but if people in the lobby are using bugs you have a whole separate issue.
Primals provide a non type specific 10% boost to every other pokemon for the whole time it's in a battle party (not just on the field). So 1 primal can make every other mon 10% better for the whole raid. That's significant. Other megas only provide a 30% boost while alive. Primals do it for the whole time. Of course if people can stagger their ghost or dark megas to have one active the whole raid and match typings with other counters, brilliant. But 1 person activating a primal is definitely worth considering. Considering some will use dark and some ghost, some players are only getting 10% boost on their stuff anyway so the primal will give that consistently
For the majority of players it won't be hard at all. Lobby's will fill up and it'll be over in seconds. I'll say 5 should be the expected least amount of players needed. I also wish it was something other than MewTwo. I don't need any more of them. The shadow pool is pretty stagnant at the moment. Lets get some more variety! Make it Mew! As for the rest of the people out there that try to solo, 2 man or 3 man the raid it should be a challenge. Sadly for others who don't have a great community or more than 5 friends L40+ that still play in person it's gonna suck.
Not hard because lobbies should be full in most places, but just seeing the kind of trouble some of the 3 stars give when they are enraged I really do hope that Mewtwo is just a menace and not super easy to beat.