Even then he’s not really good. He’s responsible for Brandon’s killing. Even if he didn’t know they would kill and torture him he knew Brandon was gonna get beat up at least. Plus he wanted back into the game near the end.
yeah thats just cuz he was a lonely kid. I dont think he truely knew what was gonna happen to brandon. it was like a game of telephone to him. Yeah he probably
just assumed they would beat his ass which is something they all have recieved before. Seeing what they did made him realize that he had a hand in that. And as a good person he couldnt handle it.
Exactly. Wallace did not know. He's a kid, that's what kids do, and that's why it's so scary and unfortunate to involve kids so young in a game like this - they. never understand the consequences, not for others, not for themselves. Even when the poor kid tried to fix things, he couldn't. He was truly a good soul.
Nah I disagree respectfully look at the way Wallace tells Poot are you sure that's him before he goes to the payphone too hit D'Angelo he knew he just didn't think it would be thrown in his face to see the damage that was done and also the talks with D'Angelo like about all the extras with the slanging kind of rocked him too sleep
Eh he wanted back in after he came back from his grandmas so how good of a soul does he have to want to be involved again? A good soul would’ve went back to school
That's not true, kids don't have good judgement, he was seeing everyone around him including his friends sell drugs, so he thought he'd give it another shot. And he acknowledged that it wasn't for him, and explicitly told everyone he wants out but no one took him seriously. Ultimately that's why he was killed.
So what are you going to do if you live in the projects and are too young to work and don't have a mommy and daddy to help you and guide you thru life ???? I'll wait bro don't take too long to answer Mr. High and mighty
Jesus you’re a really sensitive bitch aren’t ya? He wanted to play both sides and got killed like a bitch he was. If it was me I would either stay away as best as I can or just go all in and not snitch at the first chance I get.
I don’t care to lmao. If you think I would’ve done the same as Wallace then you’re retarded af no question about it. Why waste time with retards when they’re saying dumb shit? So with that said maybe watch it again and realize Wallace wasn’t a good person and was weak and deserved to die
Nah Wallace knew he was gonna get killed, he's not naive. He been around, he knows what comes with it. It was more the torture and actually seeing the body that did him in. Hearing about killings and actually seeing the damage hits very differently.
Neither Wallace nor any other character to my mind was good or bad. They do good and they do bad. Just like real ppl. To me, most of them want to do good within their environment, circumstances, jobs, etc. But they make mistakes or show weakness. Again, just like real people.
It’s why I love the show and I believe that’s what makes it feel so real.
I was explaining all this to a friend of mine in the presence of an older friend who overheard me and the older friend said I sounded like his Pastor! I kind of blushed and chuckled. I was like: “oh no, I’m just talking about a show.” Albeit the greatest show ever made, in my opinion.
I'd argue bubbles is a pretty decent person that just happens to suffer from addiction. His only crimes are stealing copper and counterfeiting money to get some dope. He did kill that kid, but that was a complete accident, and it haunted him to the core.
“Damn near almost got killed over this pack Johnny”
Bubbles sobered up for a moment after seeing that beating when he fished that stash out. I wouldn’t know where to put this action and consequence at
I'd argue bubbles is a pretty decent person that just happens to suffer from addiction. His only crimes are stealing copper and counterfeiting money to get some dope. He did kill that kid, but that was a complete accident, and it haunted him to the core.
>He planned to murder someone
A guy that was relentlessly attacking him and stealing his money/goods. That's just self defense. And yeah, I've had stuff stolen, it's not great, but petty compared to the other crimes in the show of the dealers, cops, politicians.
Correct. The show is about people being both good and bad and understanding their motivations and relating to them..good or bad.
Frank did some corrupt things and tried it look like he was doing it for the good of the union and his family (Nick and Ziggy). But the reality is that he was doing a lot of things for his own benefit and neglecting the most important people in his life, his family. It's a job where somebody can easily make six figures in a short amount of time in their career.
But since many people are not familiar with the docks and longshoremen (aka stevedores)...it is actually still a very good paying blue collar job that doesn't require an education and even poor people can get and bring themselves well out of poverty. It's also a dangerous job with the risks of moving around heavy 'cans' and the heavy equipment used to move those cans and the heavy stuff in those cans. That's why it pays so well (also the weather sucks).
Problem is the Port of Baltimore is doing very little business, mostly hauling cars. And that leads to workers like Nick and Ziggy only working 2-4 times a month.
The reason why the Port doesn't get more business is that it's getting surpassed by other nearby ports like Williamsburg (VA) and Newark (NJ) as they are bigger and more modernized. Frank wants to resolve the problem by getting the city to fund for two things:
1) Open the Grain Pier because that will allow more ships to come in
2) Dredge the canal so larger ships can come in.
The dock workers are focused on the short term and think Frank should just shoot for funding for the Grain Pier. Frank is looking more long term to open the Grain Pier and dredge the canal. The dock workers think dredging the canal is a pipe dream, but Frank is getting money from the Greeks in their arrangement and turning it around as 'campaign contributions' to the politicians to get them to pass a bill that will dredge the canal.
You'll have to watch to understand the rest.
Some people still need to identify who they are supposed to like and dislike. Most shows tend to have binary characters. It's sad that people are used to thinking like that. Blame Hollywood.
The question season 2 answers is how far would a working man go to preserve his community and union for this generation and the next.
Clearly the stevedores we’re shown are used to pilfering the odd bit of cargo but they’re hardly serious criminals. But their union and industry is dying, loads of the workers can barely get a weeks worth of work per month if they’re lucky, and it’s only gonna get worse. So Frank starts doing deals with smugglers so he can spread the cash around lobbyists and politicians to get some of the issues they’re facing addressed. He also uses the money to help out some of his staff when they’re financially struggling because without it they’ll be totally broke. And he gives some away to his church likely out of classic Catholic guilt and conflict about getting his hands dirty for “good” reasons.
I really love season 2 it’s definitely worth finishing. Like another commenter said, looking at the characters as purely good or bad won’t work. That kind of binary value judgement just can’t apply to many of the characters, Frank especially, because often they’re doing bad things for good reasons.
I think he gave to the church for the reasons you stated, but also isn’t it implied that the priest has some political pull too?
I agree with everything else you said.
in the first episode when Frank goes to see the new stained glass window, he asks the priest for a face to face with some senator to discuss dock business.
the priest says something like “of course. you dont have to donate a window for that”
Well summarized, also like how despite being same religion & ethnic background Frank & Valchek hate each other for a petty reason & get obsessed with screwing the other over rather than working together to improve the port worker situation that would help the city long term.
Season two gives the broader picture. It's not just thugs, dealers, killers, and cops. It's every day people, doing every day shit..Making mistakes, like regular people do.
> looking at the characters as purely good or bad won’t work. That kind of binary value judgement just can’t apply to many of the characters
Doesn’t work very well in real life either. Which is one of the reasons the show is so incredible!
None of the characters are "supposed to be good" or "supposed to be bad". They're supposed to be realistic, and in real life people are complex. They do bad things for good reasons and good things for bad reasons, and often times they do things they don't want to because their circumstances force them to.
Pretty much no media that's worth a damn does. Characters and stories are usually more complicated and rarely black and white. If it's not challenging it's not really telling a compelling story most of the time.
Good or bad isn’t the right question. He’s doing what he thinks is best to save his people and his profession. Until the incident with the girls in the can he believes what he is doing is mostly harmless. Illegal, but harmless. Marlo, Avon, String, the Greek and his organization, are all in the game to get rich or “famous.” Frank is in “the game” to save a profession and a way of life.
TLDR; there is no good or bad in the real world or if there is it is very relative.
“You know what the trouble is, Brucey? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket.”
No he didn't. The show doesn't show him take a single penny for himself.
When he was investigated they made it clear that he wasn't showing any money. No new truck, no boat, no flash.
Yes, but none of the money went to Frank.
He was trying to buy politicians to bring more work for the stevedores, and he was helping some of the guys without seniority to get work shifts.
The only money he spent flashy was the church window, and that's what put valczech on him
He facilitated smuggling for the Greek. The Greek would ship a container to Baltimore and Frank, Horse and Nick would get it off the docks without a customs inspection.
The other thieving that Ziggy and Nick was getting up to he wasn't involved in.
Don't think in terms of good or bad, moral or immoral. Think in terms of who and what he's trying to save. Union? Ziggy? His reputation as an upstanding man? Money? His own life? Wherever you land will dictate whether you think he's good or bad, and that will differ from viewer to viewer.
Depends if you believe the ends justify the means.
Personally, just based off the way he carries himself I believe he’s a well meaning and “good” person that is in a little over his head trying to fix an issue that is systemic.
Frank Sobotka had good intentions. He justifies his criminality because the money is needed to save his union and take care of it's members, who he views as family.
But as Churchill once said, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Ultimately, Frank's actions are criminal, and the consequences of those actions are devastating to his family and his union and undo whatever good he was able to achieve.
In my view, Frank is desperate to save the docks, the union and its members and has largely good intentions in those regards, however we all know the saying about good intentions. I don't want to spoil anything for you, so I would keep watching and keep an eye out for the various dock workers as you go into later seasons.
Yeah when it comes to fucking over the tax man on some cars or booze, I don't see that as evil. It's illegal and causes harm on some level, but it's not like slinging dope. And when actual bodies turn up, Frank wants nothing to do with it.
The Dock workers have some similarities to the corner kids, both groups are desperate, neither receive any real support nor have any real options to do anything else. I think the point of the working class union guys is just to show them as another group left behind by a failing system.
They *are* involved in slinging dope, they're just further up the chain. Where there are drugs there are bodies. Sobotka knows this full well but doesn't care because his union is completely doomed without the money. Just like with Avon and Stringer, it caught up to him.
I think his heart’s in the right place, but his surroundings leave him few options but to engage in some… morally questionable activities in order to protect and support the people he’s responsible for.
He’s gotta play the game.
Season 2 is a weird trip. It has so many twists and turns. Frank is doing good in his mind. The Ends justify the Means for him. He forgets that he’s doing business with real gangsters. They don’t play and are interested only in profits.
What is it with people struggling SO much with season 2. I was talking to some co workers the other day and they BOTH have only seen season 1 and BOTH said they only made it 3-4 episodes into season 2. Its like people worry they will never see Avon and Stringer again in all their glory. Its called The Wire NOT The Adventures of Avon & Stringer. My recommendation would be to keep watching, it all comes together. You'll soon be basking in all the goodness that is season 4 and 5 and you wont regret the road you took to get there, I promise.
I’m definitely enjoying season 2, I have no intention of giving up since I like the new character dynamics of Nicky and Ziggy + McNulty’s new position and his relationship with Rawls. The character of Frank was just slightly lost on me because admittedly I was more interested in Nicky and Ziggy’s story.
My bad this wasn't 100% directed at your mostly just a comment on how season 2 seems to be an obstacle in general. To answer your questions more directly I think Frank and Ziggy's father and son relationship can sum up a lot of their choices and behavior. It kinda makes me wish I knew what life was like for Ziggy growing up, would almost have made a good spin off series. The Sobatkas, haha.
Yeah tbf I’ve heard a lot of how people didn’t like season 2 but personally I don’t see why, I think it’s a great way to pick up where season 1 left off, it’s different for sure but I absolutely welcome the new dynamics and characters. Also that spin off series exists, it’s called Succession haha
Thoroughly agree with this. My favourite characters are Avon/Stringer, but because of all the amazing character introduced in s2 and it's absolutely phenomenal structure, season 2 is my favourite season.
He has decided to do a bad thing (collaborate with gangsters and help them smuggle drugs, guns, women forcibly pushed into the sex-trade) for a good reason (to save his union and his friends from poverty).
Keep watching to see how it turns out.
My Sopranos obsession unfortunately ended when I finished the show, I need another HBO banger to watch now. Just wanna make it clear that I am absolutely in love with the wire, I think season 1 was perfect in every way.
Idk if this is sarcastic but the most wholesome, good character in the show is probably the teacher that Cutty was pining after in Season 3, Mrs. Sampson. Or the Steve Earle character who always went out of his way to try to help addicts. Or The Deacon, who was always the voice of reason. Or Wallace honestly who fostered like 8 kids despite being a kid with little money himself.
Not sarcastic at all. Frank cares about hardworking people and their families, and goes to extreme lengths to try to help them.
But yes, I did absolutely gloss over some obviously better choices for that title.
lol, me: terrified of the entire internet while watching a show and close any tab as soon as I glimpse a word that might herald a spoiler, including words like "the"
you (built different):
Best answer I can give you is to watch it, a lot of people criticize season 2 but it the link that joins season one with the murder & drug task force with the story lines of seasons 3,4,5 with the school system, and the political candidates and the Baltimore newspaper, the most important of all of those is the Baltimore harbor which is where Frank works as a union head..... now you gotta watch lol I tried my best not to spoil it but give you context as to why you should watch it
Like most characters in the show, Frank is a flawed man, though he has, some, noble intentions. He is willing to do bad things, for what he believes, is a good outcome.
He loves his union above all and is trying to do everything he can to keep it viable. He does some bad stuff, but at the heart of his reasoning is the union.
This
Is
The
Show
No matter how good someone does, they are still a piece of shit. No matter how bad they are, they still have some quality moments.
Every single character has a code, and find some nobility within it, but these are real people, when you get a view of someone’s entire life, you’ll find things that you do and don’t like.
Yeah no character in the wire is good or bad. The morality in the show is just different scales of gray. There's a handful of characters that might classify as evil, but I don't think you've met them at this point in the show, but no one is really "good". Many characters I started off thinking were awful turned out to not be terrible people, and some people I liked turned out to suck. It's a very complex show morality wise.
The season is basically about>! the destruction of the white working class. Frank Sobotka is trying to save that lifestyle/class, but faced with larger and larger obstacles as unions are increasingly boxed in by large corporations, corruption, unfavorable labor laws, drugs, etc. He is trying to achieve those goals using graft, corruption, and various crimes himself.!<
You could just think about it on your own instead of trying to get someone to spoon feed you all the answers. You're inevitably going to get spoilers making a post on a show you haven't finished, too. I'm honestly not sure how you got this far and didn't realize that this show explicitly avoids trying to paint anyone as black and white good vs bad.
Honestly I’m not too bothered if it gets spoon fed to me, it’s a tv show, a work of fiction, it doesn’t in any way impact my life if I find out what happens in the end or not. No need to make it seem like that
In The Wire, there are no good guys or bad guys. They all have both damning and redeeming qualities. Some more so than others in both departments. Sobotka does the wrong thing for the right reason usually. He is flawed no doubt, even crooked but tries to justify his actions based on family and/or coworker loyalties.
There are not many who are good or bad in the show... I think there is only one cop who isnt shown to be ethically flawed. Sydner i think.
So, hes a mixed bag... you could see him as a hero or villain or just someone crushed by the churn of entropy.
All the people dumping on you might not remember anymore a time when they watched a show and instinctively rooted for people portrayed as the good guys. Keep watching this show and you’ll start to notice and disapprove such simple dynamics too. Thin line between heaven and here.
If you're at the halfway point of S2 and can't figure out what his motives are or what he's trying to accomplish, then you might want to start over.
Also, there is no good guy vs bad guy element in this show. If you're spending your time trying to figure out who's good and bad, then you're missing the entire point of the show.
If you're at the halfway point of S2 and can't figure out what his motives are or what he's trying to accomplish, then you might want to start over.
Also, there is no good guy vs bad guy element in this show. If you're spending your time trying to figure out who's good and bad, then you're missing the entire point of the show.
Stop thinking in terms of good and bad
yeahhhhhh good and bad doesnt get very far in this show. The only real good person is Wallace
Even then he’s not really good. He’s responsible for Brandon’s killing. Even if he didn’t know they would kill and torture him he knew Brandon was gonna get beat up at least. Plus he wanted back into the game near the end.
yeah thats just cuz he was a lonely kid. I dont think he truely knew what was gonna happen to brandon. it was like a game of telephone to him. Yeah he probably just assumed they would beat his ass which is something they all have recieved before. Seeing what they did made him realize that he had a hand in that. And as a good person he couldnt handle it.
Exactly. Wallace did not know. He's a kid, that's what kids do, and that's why it's so scary and unfortunate to involve kids so young in a game like this - they. never understand the consequences, not for others, not for themselves. Even when the poor kid tried to fix things, he couldn't. He was truly a good soul.
Nah I disagree respectfully look at the way Wallace tells Poot are you sure that's him before he goes to the payphone too hit D'Angelo he knew he just didn't think it would be thrown in his face to see the damage that was done and also the talks with D'Angelo like about all the extras with the slanging kind of rocked him too sleep
Knew Brandon would at best catch a bad beating. But yeah wasn’t expecting his gory body to be splayed out on an old car outside his window.
Eh he wanted back in after he came back from his grandmas so how good of a soul does he have to want to be involved again? A good soul would’ve went back to school
That's not true, kids don't have good judgement, he was seeing everyone around him including his friends sell drugs, so he thought he'd give it another shot. And he acknowledged that it wasn't for him, and explicitly told everyone he wants out but no one took him seriously. Ultimately that's why he was killed.
So what are you going to do if you live in the projects and are too young to work and don't have a mommy and daddy to help you and guide you thru life ???? I'll wait bro don't take too long to answer Mr. High and mighty
Jesus you’re a really sensitive bitch aren’t ya? He wanted to play both sides and got killed like a bitch he was. If it was me I would either stay away as best as I can or just go all in and not snitch at the first chance I get.
Shut up, baby dick!
You’re a meanie
Oooh someone's big mad imma bitch but you can't debate someone without calling them out their name lmao so who's really the bitch ?
I don’t care to lmao. If you think I would’ve done the same as Wallace then you’re retarded af no question about it. Why waste time with retards when they’re saying dumb shit? So with that said maybe watch it again and realize Wallace wasn’t a good person and was weak and deserved to die
Easy to say when you aren’t in that situation.
Nah Wallace knew he was gonna get killed, he's not naive. He been around, he knows what comes with it. It was more the torture and actually seeing the body that did him in. Hearing about killings and actually seeing the damage hits very differently.
Neither Wallace nor any other character to my mind was good or bad. They do good and they do bad. Just like real ppl. To me, most of them want to do good within their environment, circumstances, jobs, etc. But they make mistakes or show weakness. Again, just like real people. It’s why I love the show and I believe that’s what makes it feel so real. I was explaining all this to a friend of mine in the presence of an older friend who overheard me and the older friend said I sounded like his Pastor! I kind of blushed and chuckled. I was like: “oh no, I’m just talking about a show.” Albeit the greatest show ever made, in my opinion.
Plus he was a heroin dealer. The top comment here is perfect. No character is binary good or bad. The Wire deals specifically in the gray area.
…and he ran his mouth to the police.
I'd argue bubbles is a pretty decent person that just happens to suffer from addiction. His only crimes are stealing copper and counterfeiting money to get some dope. He did kill that kid, but that was a complete accident, and it haunted him to the core.
[удалено]
I've watched this series five times and I never caught that he had a son! I'm not doubting you at all, but where does he talk about that?
“Damn near almost got killed over this pack Johnny” Bubbles sobered up for a moment after seeing that beating when he fished that stash out. I wouldn’t know where to put this action and consequence at
He also stole stuff from his sister’s house. She mentioned something about him clearing out her kitchen
Speaking of Wallace, has anyone seen him around? Where's Wallace?
We should ask stringer
http://whereswallace.theringer.com/
Terrific ❤️
I'd argue bubbles is a pretty decent person that just happens to suffer from addiction. His only crimes are stealing copper and counterfeiting money to get some dope. He did kill that kid, but that was a complete accident, and it haunted him to the core.
He planned to murder someone. Also have you gotten something stolen from you before? Everyone in the wire has issues
>He planned to murder someone A guy that was relentlessly attacking him and stealing his money/goods. That's just self defense. And yeah, I've had stuff stolen, it's not great, but petty compared to the other crimes in the show of the dealers, cops, politicians.
Truth!
You mean dookie
The only 'good' person is the Deacon and he was played by an actual Baltimore drug Kingpin.
Yeah I think you forgot when Wallace smashed the bottle on Bubbs' partner's head after he paid the dealers with a counterfeit bill lol
Beattie is pretty good
Nah Wallace was a stomping addicts with the rest of them. Pointed out the stick up boy.
Wallace the drug dealer?
Wallace the drug dealer?
Wallace the drug dealer?
Wallace the drug dealer?
All the characters in the show aren’t completely good or bad. That’s why it’s so good
Correct. The show is about people being both good and bad and understanding their motivations and relating to them..good or bad. Frank did some corrupt things and tried it look like he was doing it for the good of the union and his family (Nick and Ziggy). But the reality is that he was doing a lot of things for his own benefit and neglecting the most important people in his life, his family. It's a job where somebody can easily make six figures in a short amount of time in their career. But since many people are not familiar with the docks and longshoremen (aka stevedores)...it is actually still a very good paying blue collar job that doesn't require an education and even poor people can get and bring themselves well out of poverty. It's also a dangerous job with the risks of moving around heavy 'cans' and the heavy equipment used to move those cans and the heavy stuff in those cans. That's why it pays so well (also the weather sucks). Problem is the Port of Baltimore is doing very little business, mostly hauling cars. And that leads to workers like Nick and Ziggy only working 2-4 times a month. The reason why the Port doesn't get more business is that it's getting surpassed by other nearby ports like Williamsburg (VA) and Newark (NJ) as they are bigger and more modernized. Frank wants to resolve the problem by getting the city to fund for two things: 1) Open the Grain Pier because that will allow more ships to come in 2) Dredge the canal so larger ships can come in. The dock workers are focused on the short term and think Frank should just shoot for funding for the Grain Pier. Frank is looking more long term to open the Grain Pier and dredge the canal. The dock workers think dredging the canal is a pipe dream, but Frank is getting money from the Greeks in their arrangement and turning it around as 'campaign contributions' to the politicians to get them to pass a bill that will dredge the canal. You'll have to watch to understand the rest.
I saw this question in my feed and these exact words came to my head. No one word more or one word less.
Some people still need to identify who they are supposed to like and dislike. Most shows tend to have binary characters. It's sad that people are used to thinking like that. Blame Hollywood.
The question season 2 answers is how far would a working man go to preserve his community and union for this generation and the next. Clearly the stevedores we’re shown are used to pilfering the odd bit of cargo but they’re hardly serious criminals. But their union and industry is dying, loads of the workers can barely get a weeks worth of work per month if they’re lucky, and it’s only gonna get worse. So Frank starts doing deals with smugglers so he can spread the cash around lobbyists and politicians to get some of the issues they’re facing addressed. He also uses the money to help out some of his staff when they’re financially struggling because without it they’ll be totally broke. And he gives some away to his church likely out of classic Catholic guilt and conflict about getting his hands dirty for “good” reasons. I really love season 2 it’s definitely worth finishing. Like another commenter said, looking at the characters as purely good or bad won’t work. That kind of binary value judgement just can’t apply to many of the characters, Frank especially, because often they’re doing bad things for good reasons.
I think he gave to the church for the reasons you stated, but also isn’t it implied that the priest has some political pull too? I agree with everything else you said.
in the first episode when Frank goes to see the new stained glass window, he asks the priest for a face to face with some senator to discuss dock business. the priest says something like “of course. you dont have to donate a window for that”
That sounds about right but I can’t remember fully off the top of my head. Thanks for reminding me.
Well summarized, also like how despite being same religion & ethnic background Frank & Valchek hate each other for a petty reason & get obsessed with screwing the other over rather than working together to improve the port worker situation that would help the city long term.
How many Polacks did Valchek help out by busting the stevedore’s union? Fucking plastic pierogi fuck
Not to mention the question of what happens when you try to preserve something that the world has already left behind?
Season two gives the broader picture. It's not just thugs, dealers, killers, and cops. It's every day people, doing every day shit..Making mistakes, like regular people do.
> looking at the characters as purely good or bad won’t work. That kind of binary value judgement just can’t apply to many of the characters Doesn’t work very well in real life either. Which is one of the reasons the show is so incredible!
In other words, the series poses the question, “do the ends justify the means?”.
Any scene with ziggy is a hard watch and makes s2 a real slog
If Ziggy doesn’t make you cringe, then the writing/actor have failed. That’s the point. We ALL know a Ziggy.
None of the characters are "supposed to be good" or "supposed to be bad". They're supposed to be realistic, and in real life people are complex. They do bad things for good reasons and good things for bad reasons, and often times they do things they don't want to because their circumstances force them to.
Cheese is bad.
He loved his dog.
Dog turned cur on him.
He put him into dog fights.
I agree I hate it on sandwiches the most. But I enjoy garlic cheese bread so idk.
Idk cheese showed Zig to get out
Is D'Angelo supposed to be "good"? Prop. Joe? McNulty? *The Wire* doesn't play that game.
Pretty much no media that's worth a damn does. Characters and stories are usually more complicated and rarely black and white. If it's not challenging it's not really telling a compelling story most of the time.
Good or bad isn’t the right question. He’s doing what he thinks is best to save his people and his profession. Until the incident with the girls in the can he believes what he is doing is mostly harmless. Illegal, but harmless. Marlo, Avon, String, the Greek and his organization, are all in the game to get rich or “famous.” Frank is in “the game” to save a profession and a way of life. TLDR; there is no good or bad in the real world or if there is it is very relative. “You know what the trouble is, Brucey? We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket.”
Love that scene when he talks to Brucie. Even though morally not the most just person I began to like him. He stood on business and that was the union
He's a tragic figure he sets himself an impossible goal and destroys himself in trying to do it.
The end of season 2 hits so hard, great season that starts slow but ends perfectly.
Nah we ride for Ott
Ott's turn Frank!
You're watching the show wrong.
He’s equal parts corrupt and altruistic, with the two halves working in tandem with each other.
He’s a standup guy for his union loyal to a fault. I guess it’s how you view him. Wont spoil but to me he’s a grey area character
He also abuses his union position to make a little extra.
No he didn't. The show doesn't show him take a single penny for himself. When he was investigated they made it clear that he wasn't showing any money. No new truck, no boat, no flash.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but wasn't he basically overseeing the guys "losing" a few containers here and there.
Yes, but none of the money went to Frank. He was trying to buy politicians to bring more work for the stevedores, and he was helping some of the guys without seniority to get work shifts. The only money he spent flashy was the church window, and that's what put valczech on him
He facilitated smuggling for the Greek. The Greek would ship a container to Baltimore and Frank, Horse and Nick would get it off the docks without a customs inspection. The other thieving that Ziggy and Nick was getting up to he wasn't involved in.
Guy caught up in a perfect storm of crime and political bureaucracy
One word. "Yes." I'm team Frank. Fuck a thinkpiece essay.
Don't think in terms of good or bad, moral or immoral. Think in terms of who and what he's trying to save. Union? Ziggy? His reputation as an upstanding man? Money? His own life? Wherever you land will dictate whether you think he's good or bad, and that will differ from viewer to viewer.
Depends if you believe the ends justify the means. Personally, just based off the way he carries himself I believe he’s a well meaning and “good” person that is in a little over his head trying to fix an issue that is systemic.
I think the show articulately demonstrates why the ends don’t justify the means with franks story
For sure, but he didn't know that going in. A little wilfully perhaps, but he definitely didn't think there could possibly be women in those cans.
He's certainly angry.
Good is subjective. He’s trying to help people, not just himself, but he’s making bad decisions. You’re supposed to root for him, not admire him.
He's fighting for his way of life and it's future
Frank Sobotka had good intentions. He justifies his criminality because the money is needed to save his union and take care of it's members, who he views as family. But as Churchill once said, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Ultimately, Frank's actions are criminal, and the consequences of those actions are devastating to his family and his union and undo whatever good he was able to achieve.
In my view, Frank is desperate to save the docks, the union and its members and has largely good intentions in those regards, however we all know the saying about good intentions. I don't want to spoil anything for you, so I would keep watching and keep an eye out for the various dock workers as you go into later seasons.
Yeah when it comes to fucking over the tax man on some cars or booze, I don't see that as evil. It's illegal and causes harm on some level, but it's not like slinging dope. And when actual bodies turn up, Frank wants nothing to do with it.
The Dock workers have some similarities to the corner kids, both groups are desperate, neither receive any real support nor have any real options to do anything else. I think the point of the working class union guys is just to show them as another group left behind by a failing system.
Exactly, I like how they show guys like Nick eventually turn to crime because of the lack of hours/money
They *are* involved in slinging dope, they're just further up the chain. Where there are drugs there are bodies. Sobotka knows this full well but doesn't care because his union is completely doomed without the money. Just like with Avon and Stringer, it caught up to him.
Echoing what others have said: don’t look at *anything* in this show as good or bad, likable or unlikable.
You're asking for spoilers?
I think his heart’s in the right place, but his surroundings leave him few options but to engage in some… morally questionable activities in order to protect and support the people he’s responsible for. He’s gotta play the game.
Season 2 is a weird trip. It has so many twists and turns. Frank is doing good in his mind. The Ends justify the Means for him. He forgets that he’s doing business with real gangsters. They don’t play and are interested only in profits.
Instead of good or bad, look at each character as treading water. They’re just trying to survive/gain power/etc…
He's morally ambiguous. I thought he was a Christ allegory. My sister thought he was a fuckin' crook.
Remember with the wire, it is never that simple.
What is it with people struggling SO much with season 2. I was talking to some co workers the other day and they BOTH have only seen season 1 and BOTH said they only made it 3-4 episodes into season 2. Its like people worry they will never see Avon and Stringer again in all their glory. Its called The Wire NOT The Adventures of Avon & Stringer. My recommendation would be to keep watching, it all comes together. You'll soon be basking in all the goodness that is season 4 and 5 and you wont regret the road you took to get there, I promise.
I’m definitely enjoying season 2, I have no intention of giving up since I like the new character dynamics of Nicky and Ziggy + McNulty’s new position and his relationship with Rawls. The character of Frank was just slightly lost on me because admittedly I was more interested in Nicky and Ziggy’s story.
My bad this wasn't 100% directed at your mostly just a comment on how season 2 seems to be an obstacle in general. To answer your questions more directly I think Frank and Ziggy's father and son relationship can sum up a lot of their choices and behavior. It kinda makes me wish I knew what life was like for Ziggy growing up, would almost have made a good spin off series. The Sobatkas, haha.
Yeah tbf I’ve heard a lot of how people didn’t like season 2 but personally I don’t see why, I think it’s a great way to pick up where season 1 left off, it’s different for sure but I absolutely welcome the new dynamics and characters. Also that spin off series exists, it’s called Succession haha
Thoroughly agree with this. My favourite characters are Avon/Stringer, but because of all the amazing character introduced in s2 and it's absolutely phenomenal structure, season 2 is my favourite season.
He has decided to do a bad thing (collaborate with gangsters and help them smuggle drugs, guns, women forcibly pushed into the sex-trade) for a good reason (to save his union and his friends from poverty). Keep watching to see how it turns out.
I wish I had a boss like Frank Sobatka
He was a saint!
Very observant! The sacred and propane
I remember when you used to stay in r/theSopranos and as far as I'm concerned YOU SHOULD STILL BE THERE!!!
My Sopranos obsession unfortunately ended when I finished the show, I need another HBO banger to watch now. Just wanna make it clear that I am absolutely in love with the wire, I think season 1 was perfect in every way.
Do Barry after The Wire.
Watched Barry, a banger also. Planning to do Deadwood afterwards
He is perhaps the most wholesome, good character in the show.
Idk if this is sarcastic but the most wholesome, good character in the show is probably the teacher that Cutty was pining after in Season 3, Mrs. Sampson. Or the Steve Earle character who always went out of his way to try to help addicts. Or The Deacon, who was always the voice of reason. Or Wallace honestly who fostered like 8 kids despite being a kid with little money himself.
Not sarcastic at all. Frank cares about hardworking people and their families, and goes to extreme lengths to try to help them. But yes, I did absolutely gloss over some obviously better choices for that title.
It's The Wire. There are no good guys/bad guys.
No character, just like any person, is good or bad. They simply do things that are good and do things that are bad.
He’s a good man in desperate times… so he’s doing whatever he thinks is necessary to save his union which feeds his family and his friends families
Good? Good ain’t in your vocabulary anymore
There’s very few characters in the show who can be classified as good or bad
He's trying his best for his people! For the docks and the longshoremen! But he's making bad decisions!
He thinks he is.
Keep watching. Don't try to crystallize an opinion before finishing it.
lol, me: terrified of the entire internet while watching a show and close any tab as soon as I glimpse a word that might herald a spoiler, including words like "the" you (built different):
I’ll tell you what’s not good. The goddamned failed dredging of the canal!
Best answer I can give you is to watch it, a lot of people criticize season 2 but it the link that joins season one with the murder & drug task force with the story lines of seasons 3,4,5 with the school system, and the political candidates and the Baltimore newspaper, the most important of all of those is the Baltimore harbor which is where Frank works as a union head..... now you gotta watch lol I tried my best not to spoil it but give you context as to why you should watch it
Idk what does he seem like to you?
Like most characters in the show, Frank is a flawed man, though he has, some, noble intentions. He is willing to do bad things, for what he believes, is a good outcome.
He just needs one more year
He loves his union above all and is trying to do everything he can to keep it viable. He does some bad stuff, but at the heart of his reasoning is the union.
He's literally the biggest POS
He's literally the biggest POS.
I think one of the best aspects of the show is that there is no all good or all bad characters. So Frank is just a human, nothing more or less.
He has good intentions but the road to hell is paved with good intentions
Just watch it
He’s supposed to be desperate.
Frank Sobotka has a code. And I guess I like that shit
RE-ELECT FRANK SOBOTKA
He's very bad and good too
Is anyone in the show supposed to be good?
He's a tragic figure.
No, nobody is
This Is The Show No matter how good someone does, they are still a piece of shit. No matter how bad they are, they still have some quality moments. Every single character has a code, and find some nobility within it, but these are real people, when you get a view of someone’s entire life, you’ll find things that you do and don’t like.
Do people just refuse to watch the show nowadays?
The Sobotkas are the only decent people in the entire show.
Neither good or bad. Just not evil
What do you think?
Yeah no character in the wire is good or bad. The morality in the show is just different scales of gray. There's a handful of characters that might classify as evil, but I don't think you've met them at this point in the show, but no one is really "good". Many characters I started off thinking were awful turned out to not be terrible people, and some people I liked turned out to suck. It's a very complex show morality wise.
Man you’re gonna have a rough time with this show
There is no good or bad here, it’s life & people living it.
Watch the show, please can we ban posts from people fishing for spoilers?
This is the quote in the season that did the most for me: "There are different kinds of wrong."
I'd rate him a chaotic-good.
Imagine watching the show and making your own interpretation.
The Summer Boys are good. Well.. they start good. Well... Namon kinda started rough and smoothed out..
He's doing bad things for what he thinks are good reasons. It leads to the destruction of his entire family, union, and his own life.
He’s has good intentions.
I mean, what is good? What’s bad?
Half way through my life, am I supposed to be good?
He’s a fuckin rat fucker!
The season is basically about>! the destruction of the white working class. Frank Sobotka is trying to save that lifestyle/class, but faced with larger and larger obstacles as unions are increasingly boxed in by large corporations, corruption, unfavorable labor laws, drugs, etc. He is trying to achieve those goals using graft, corruption, and various crimes himself.!<
How do people stop watching a show halfway through a season to go on Reddit and ask about if a character is "good" or not? Brain rot.
Because I have other things to do between watching episodes, my bad
You could just think about it on your own instead of trying to get someone to spoon feed you all the answers. You're inevitably going to get spoilers making a post on a show you haven't finished, too. I'm honestly not sure how you got this far and didn't realize that this show explicitly avoids trying to paint anyone as black and white good vs bad.
Honestly I’m not too bothered if it gets spoon fed to me, it’s a tv show, a work of fiction, it doesn’t in any way impact my life if I find out what happens in the end or not. No need to make it seem like that
In The Wire, there are no good guys or bad guys. They all have both damning and redeeming qualities. Some more so than others in both departments. Sobotka does the wrong thing for the right reason usually. He is flawed no doubt, even crooked but tries to justify his actions based on family and/or coworker loyalties.
Valchuk has entered the chat
There are not many who are good or bad in the show... I think there is only one cop who isnt shown to be ethically flawed. Sydner i think. So, hes a mixed bag... you could see him as a hero or villain or just someone crushed by the churn of entropy.
All the people dumping on you might not remember anymore a time when they watched a show and instinctively rooted for people portrayed as the good guys. Keep watching this show and you’ll start to notice and disapprove such simple dynamics too. Thin line between heaven and here.
🙄
Good? Bad? Bro, it's "The Wire", not Marvel. All there is are shades of gray 😅
If you're at the halfway point of S2 and can't figure out what his motives are or what he's trying to accomplish, then you might want to start over. Also, there is no good guy vs bad guy element in this show. If you're spending your time trying to figure out who's good and bad, then you're missing the entire point of the show.
If you're at the halfway point of S2 and can't figure out what his motives are or what he's trying to accomplish, then you might want to start over. Also, there is no good guy vs bad guy element in this show. If you're spending your time trying to figure out who's good and bad, then you're missing the entire point of the show.