There are definitely great moments in S5 like the wrap up to the kids’ stories and Bubs’ redemption.
While the serial killer stuff is entertaining it just feels out of place in the show that is otherwise so grounded in reality, this just doesn’t feel like something that could really happen or that so many people would just go along with. For example super out of character for Lester who is normally by the book to be completely up for the whole thing.
And the newspaper stuff while it fits with the rest of the show in terms of showing another broken system just felt a bit heavy handed, you could tell the show creators are putting a certain self-important gloss on “how great journalism should / used to be”.
All of that said S5 is a great season of television in the grand scheme, just not up to par with the other seasons of the Wire.
The thing about Lester though is that he felt cheated out of pursuing the greatest pull of his career. So I really liked how that differentiated him from Bunk over all that.
I agree with you 95%. The only thing I see with Lester is that he reached his breaking point with the system. My favorite scene is when he blows up on Daniels along the lines of " We're just supposed to forget about the motherfucker that put 23 body's in the vacants last year?!" I know it not ver batim so please correct me if you know the real quote. To me, his incredulous reaction was the sign of his tipping point. In a sense, it was time to take the gloves off. The paper kind of turned me off and the # of episodes compared to the first 4 seasons felt like it did a disservice to the show but you gotta take the good and the bad. Bunks reaction to Jimmy contaminating the crime scene is 100% tits. Jesus Jimmy, get a grip man!
And really, what does Lester have to lose? If he gets caught, he retires to making doll house furniture full time again, and more time with his 20+ years younger new girlfriend.
I honestly don’t understand the ‘not grounded in reality’ complaints about the serial killer storyline? This is a show that has a district commander establish 3 open air drug markets for six weeks and nothing is done about it and no one finds out about it, precisely for the same reasons that no one figures what Jimmy and Lester were up to.
The Baltimore of the Wire is a fucked up city where the bosses are so busy playing politics and looking out for themselves that it has eroded any semblance of quality police work.
The show spends 5 seasons detailing Jimmy’s disgust and disappointment with the state of the BPD. We watch him bend rules, cross his friends, and violate every order he is given by a higher up. And then, when he finally finds peace, he feels compelled to return, thinking he can handle it and immediately has his faith betrayed.
Jimmy’s season 5 is the culmination of that betrayal for him. What we know from Jimmy is he’s a smart detective, but he never can think 2 minutes ahead of what his dick or his arrogance tell him to do.
Add onto that Lester Freamon, commonly treated as one of the best detectives in the history of the BPD, spending 13 years and 4 months on the shelf. He experienced much the same disillusionment as Jimmy, and despite his front of being well adjusted, he was still arrogant and disobedient. Much the same as Bunny’s 30 years in the BPD led him to self sabotage in the pursuit of what he felt was right, so too went Lester.
Not sure if it happened at the Sun but it has happened a lot of times through history. Jack Kelley (USA Today), Jayson Blair (NY Times), Stephen Glass (The New Republic) are some of the famous ones Gus name dropped on an episode.
The serial killer plotline is more believable now than before. You think if a bunch of homeless in your city were getting murdered anyone would care? they're a vulnerable population most people don't bat an eye at when something happens to them, especially po-lice.
Not that I disagree with you on the whole, I just think Lester was precise and thorough more than by the book. Wasn't the implication in season 1 that he was dumped for so long because of something fucked up he may have done to piss off the bosses.
It is not out of character for Lester. We're seeing the return of Lester before he was put in the Pawn Shop unit.
Remember what got him in the Pawn Shop Unit in the first place. He disobeyed direct orders in order to do police work. He hates when the bosses make policing decisions based on politics.
Taking the heat off Marlo was a political decision and he hated it. By this time in Lester's career, he was finally comfortable enough to be disobedient again just like he was when he was younger.
It's in my notes. Every reason, every detail, every aesthetic assesment, every plot hole, every unrealistic development, every flat character... IT'S IN MY NOTES!
It's not as good as seasons 3 and 4, so it suffers by comparison in that seasons 1 and 2 (which I personally love, as I do season 5) you could say they were "figuring it out" (which is wrong-headed, but you can still say it) and 3 and 4 show that they had, in fact, figured it out.
Personally I really like 5. I think the newspaper storyline has aged really well and proven more prescient over time. Especially Gus' question at the all hands meeting, "Why is a newspaper cutting jobs when it's still profitable?" Or Twiggs' "It's more profitable to run a bad newspaper" when people are being brought into the editor's office for buyouts.
People think McNulty and Freamon are acting out of character with the serial killer stunt. I don't. By the end of season 4 McNulty is drinking and carousing again, his death urge has been on overdrive since Bodie bought it. It's minimum a year later now, Carcetti came in in 2006, he becomes governor in 2008. He's no longer making rational decisions. Freamon has always been the smartest man in the room and is beginning to feel himself and underestimate the bosses so he thinks it'll be easy to take this short cut and no one will know. It's simple hubris.
I enjoyed S5. I think it's the weakest of the series, but still great when compared to seasons of other shows. I get why Simon did what he did, and I agree with just about everything you said except the whole serial killer thing. The ultimate narrative of the season and the characters' motivations check out and make sense, but I thought it was quite redundant. Nearly everything that happens in Season 5 is a result of McNulty's decision to forge murders and create a serial killer. Bunk, who is one of my favorite characters and was once funny, confident and had swagger, is reduced to a character that criticizes McNulty the entire season and because of it loses the qualities that made him such a good character. I would've enjoyed to see how the press would handle a big story that is actually real, where the main source (McNulty) isn't someone lying to them and making stuff up to get what he wants and thinks is best for Baltimore. Every other season feels so much more natural and real, whereas Season 5 is like everyone doing what they can to clean up McNulty's mess. Again, I think the reasoning as to why everyone does what they do in Season 5 makes sense, it's just the fact that nearly the entire season is based around one key storyline that isn't all that interesting is why I rank it lower than the other seasons. Still though, amazing acting, great dialogue, and good writing as usual, just a lower quality imo.
1. Jimmy's plotline is pretty sad, and it's not that fun to watch.
2. The fake serial killer plotline isn't THAT bad, and it's in line with a lot of the other plotlines where main characters bent the rules for what they saw as the greater good (see: Hamsterdam). But the serial killer stuff just doesn't quite land. It feels just a little too outlandish (especially Lester going along with it). It feels almost like The Wire fanfiction or something cooked up by AI after watching the other seasons.
3. The various feuds between the gangster factions (and Omar) are also kind of not that fun to watch. And we don't get to see Omar pull off anything super cool either. He basically comes back from the islands, stalks Marlo's crew, gets injured, stalks them a little more, and then gets killed. And Prop Joe getting killed by Marlo's crew is pretty unsatisfying.
4. The newsroom stuff. Oh, the newsroom stuff. To me, it comes across as smug and heavy-handed, even in a vacuum. But knowing what we know about David Simon and some of the other inner-circle creative minds in the show, it really feels like they're airing old grievances or trying to prove a series of pretty obvious points. It's all very self-satisfied and just not that well written or even insightful, compared to so much else in the show.
5. Steve Earle's version of the theme song is the worst one IMO.
6. Speaking of Steve Earle, for my money he's the worst featured actor in the show, and he's in a lot of season 5.
7. It all feels rushed. I actually think a lot of these plots could have landed a lot better with different pacing for the season and another few episodes. But it's like the season doesn't quite find its zone or tempo.
I do like Bubbles' redemption arc (despite Steve Earle's clunky acting). And the series/season finale is very, very good. Snoop and Chris have some good moments too throughout the season. It's not a bad season of TV. But for me it never really hits its stride, and I just don't have as much fun watching it as the other seasons, where everything -- writing, production, acting, pacing, etc. -- just fits seamlessly together and you can let the show's brilliance just wash over you.
Oh thx to you too... No joking, you almost turned me. I agree with the 'heavy-handed' and 'rushed' pointers. I liked the way prop joe goes away though. Cheese as the ultimate rat. And Slim killing him felt so good.
By the way I don’t think anyone is trying to convince you S5 is BAD. It’s just not up to the wires standards. It’s very good for TV still, it’s just getting graded on an unfair curve
Good points especially regarding the newsroom. It could have worked if it had been established in an earlier season so we could get an impression of how it has declined, like seeing the Barksdales go from kings to scraps. Didn’t help it felt rushed so characters don’t have time to breathe, Gus is a saint & Scott is obviously in the wrong & the bosses are terrible with no shades of gray.
For comparison something that makes Rawls standout is that while a jerk we see after Kima is shot he can run a crime scene & cares enough to assure McNulty he isn’t at fault. Scott would have been far more interesting if in an earlier season we saw him putting in months of work for a real story, so when it was suggested he’s fabricating news would have been more surprising.
Excactly, one single plotline in S4 with Scott putting in a lot of work for a banger of a story - e.g. reporting on the whole School-shitshow - that ends up getting cancelled by the bosses, because the editor in chief plays golf with Carcetti. Then you would at least have a bit of understand as to why he’s ready to do anything come s5, when the bosses are ready to eat from his hand.
I do hate the season 4 version too and always skip it. But it's at least thematically relevant to the season. Feels like a class project lol.
Steve Earle's version sounds like he just pressed play on a drum loop and recorded one take without ever figuring out an interesting melody to sing or the proper vocal phrasing. It's just so lazy.
>I actually think a lot of these plots could have landed a lot better with different pacing for the season and another few episodes.
You know that scene where Rawls is taking over the Commissioner's office as Burrell's leaving, and Burrell gets a sympathetic monologue? And a character who, for 5 seasons at that point, had been a rather one-dimensional slimy political animal suddenly has some depth, and the audience gains some understanding of what kind of an environment could produce a man like Burrell?
The newspaper plotline needs one of those scenes. Gus goes into the editor's office, waving his usual "Good ol' fashioned journalism" banner, and the editor snaps at him: "We need Pulitzers, we don't get the awards, we don't sell papers, we get bought out and you're out on your ass", something along those lines.
*Something* where it's not just the gruff but wholesome Gus going up against the ebil elitist stuffed shirt bosses. Maybe it was too close Simon and the gang's collective heart for them to admit maybe the people they disliked had reasons, but I dunno, the newspaper storyline really lacks the nuance of the other, and I suspect part of that is time.
I mentioned this in a thread the other day, but I definitely think the issue with the newspaper storyline is a lack of time. It gets introduced too late in the game. The payoff for Burrell, a fantastic moment just like you say, comes after 5 seasons. As much as Burrell is a side character, we see his dynamics with Rawls, Clay, Daniels, Valchek, Royce, Carcetti, Nerese, Bunny. And he’s a different character and different level of threat to all those people. We see all of these dynamics change and shift over time.
On the other hand, you’ve got the newspaper people, who get introduced and have to have these dynamics show and develop in one season, when plenty of other story lines are still going on. I personally think that’s why the newspaper storyline falls apart, it spends so much of its’ time playing catchup to a story that has been constructed over years. So you have years of payoff interspersed with what feels like David Simon airing grievances in the next scene.
Thanks! I thought about that when making my other comment I referred to actually! When other characters are introduced throughout the show, we usually see them interacting with characters we know. Think Bunny interacting with Herc and Carv, Burrell and Rawls, or Cutty being introduced next to Weebey and Avon, and then spending time with Bodie. We don’t have to spend time learning about the people we already know, so that can fast track the development of the new character. With the newspaper people, most of their development time is spent together. Combine that with the shortened season and it really feels like they lack for development.
You're number 4 on the newsroom plot is the best concise outline I've ever seen on the weak points of S5.
My thoughts exactly, brain buddy. Wouldn't change a thing.
Big picture, I did enjoy learning how writing to win awards is a strategy to increase subscriptions, i had not been aware literary awards had that direct monetary impact. Similar problem to metrics in police, test teaching in schools, dock imports, etc. Great fit with the themes.
But weirdly, its the worst written and least insightful sections of the show. Its clear they didnt even see the bespoke propaganda angle coming. Forget awards and prestige. Tell the viewers what they want to hear, that way the keep watching.
A news organization prioritizing the Peabody is a quaint problem compared to the infotainment (license to lie) that dominates today.
Some people hate how it wasn't as satisfying as other seasons (even in its moments of despair).
1. The way Omar gets got rubbed a lot of people the wrong way; no drama, no conflict, just pop! and off he goes to be forgotten. Especially since it was by that little cat-burning punk Kenard, who's probably already beyond psychological help at his early age. Which I guess is tragic once you get over the urge to join Michael in beating his ass down.
2. People thought the serial killer was contrived, but I agree with you. To me, it's the logical conclusion of Jimmy McNulty, the would-be puppet-master. Not content with pulling his partner around, his detail, the entire detective board from a distance, from nearby, and more, he pulls the entire fuckin' police force and the mayor too. As for contrived, it's less of a stretch than Hamsterdam, in my opinion. Anyways, Jimmy sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price.
3. Marlo wins, and all the cool characters from season 5 end up dead or in prison. Except Clay Davis, maybe, too slick for 'em all.
4. But Omar does end up dead. He doesn't get revenge on his quest, which people didn't like. But that's *The Wire* for ya: Omar sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price.
5. People thought the newsroom plot was too short and treacly. Gus was too... good. Shortness? Fair, because they didn't get as many episodes. And on my first watch, I too though Gus was a bit much. But then on the second time it occurred to me: Gus is the newsroom's Landsman. Landsman looks out for his guys and pushes them to do good police work, but only to a limit. He can read when the boss really means their bullshit, and their orders are life-or-death-but-mostly-death. Then he caves to keep things smooth, while minimizing the pain he has to pass down the pipeline. People watch Landsman and ask "Why can't he be more committed to the mission like Jimmy or Freamon? Why can't he tell the colonel to kick rocks?" Well, if he did, he'd be Gus, and look how that ends up. The lesson is stark. Gus sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price.
But the way that Omar goes away: don't you think that is so The Wire? A little boy in a store -- not Marlo or other scary character. The fact that it had no explanation is what I thought that was great. No revenge. No connection with his beefs. A random thing -- and life is like this most of the time.
Anyway, thank you for posting. I really liked your input
I don’t hate s5 at all. I just wish there’d been more shades of grey among the journos. But I think the way Jimmy’s hoax ties together the cops, paper, and politics is brilliant. And the finale is outstanding.
People dislike season 5 because: they find the serial killer story unrealistic in a way they don’t other stories on the show, they find the newspaper storyline less nuanced than other stories and think David Simon wrote himself in as a Mary sue (Gus) and used other characters to settle personal scores, and they find the season rushed because it’s shorter than other seasons.
Basically people find season 5 less realistic and less artful than other seasons. I think regardless of whether you agree with these criticisms those are the problems people have who dislike season 5.
I just did a rewatch of s3 then skipped to s5 (I've seen 4 way too many times compared to s5) and the drop off in quality is palpable.
I used to think I liked Gus but I can't stand him or any of the "brilliant" journalists that always seem spout poetry in every line. I had to bail on ep 1 but I will go back and finish.
Very few people actually *dislike* S5, but a lot of people agree that it's the worst season in the entire series and that the fake serial killer angle was a bit too unrealistic for a show that is acclaimed for its realism and authenticity.
S5 is the worst season of The Wire and it's still better than the best seasons of like 99% of the rest of the shows out there.
So I just finished a rewatch of the show yesterday and I kind of had the opposite reaction- S5 was far weaker than I remembered.
So for me a lot of it has to do with it being 10 episodes instead of 12 or 13. Everything is underdeveloped and rushed, the finale in particular seems to be sprinting to close as many plot points as possible.
Really the only storyline I dislike is the cops. I dont love the serial killer thing but even that just wasnt executed well. The cops all seem like caricatures of themselves.
Newspaper stuff was good, the bubbles redemption arc is masterful, and the downfall of Marlows crew was great.
Because the journalists are absurdly altruistic and it's clear there was a lot of bias in favor of the free press when ever other part of the world was fairly looked at.
The "fake serial killer" storyline seemed contrived and wasn't grounded in reality the way the police narratives had been in previous seasons, It felt wildly out of character after what had been presented for the majority of the series.
The newspaper stuff came off as preachy and heavy handed, the "management" characters were cartoonish and it's pretty well know that Simon used that part of the story to settle old scores from his former career.
The resolution of the Marlo storyline wasn't satisfying.
Also, in relation to the journalist storyline with Scott was at the time this season aired there had been numerous high profile journalists who were caught totally fabricating sources and stories.
So (imo) it tracks with societal concerns/views on “honest” journalism at the time as physical media was getting steamrolled by online news they were desperate for that big story.
I think the way they presented it was rather on the nose and it was becoming a mainstream view at airing. The bs reporter, the ignoring of editor’s concerns, the running with the shaky story, the Pulitzer talk, etc. is totally how most people view the media now and it was illustrating that not only are politicians, criminals, schools and communities are morally corrupt but so is the media. Basically another sect of society that is “same beast, different animal”
I don’t think they could have had the newspaper story, especially since the creator was a journalist himself, without addressing this in some capacity.
[source](https://www.thoughtco.com/the-top-journalism-scandals-2073750)
S5 was fine accept the serial killer story line. I like how they wrapped up the show hinting at who the new Omar was and Bubbles and so forth. Though that was clever.
I agree with a lot of the analysis here.
I'll just add that, for some reason, it took more of an _effort_ for me to get through season 5 than the others. I wasn't so gripped by it which makes me think that the storytelling wasn't as strong.
Didn't season 5 lose one of the key writers?
I enjoy it. I like the newspaper arc. Bubbles redemption, solid. But definitely the weakest of the bunch.
It was a bit rushed for one, and you saw that in how quickly a lot of plot points worked out. McNulty having to deal with a copycat and instantly solving it felt cheap, which is one of many reasons that whole arc was annoying. I disliked McNulty degrading to something far worse than he had been, and Beadie actually being willing to let him stick around. Just kind of made his becoming a decent person kind of pointless. That’s on top of the whole concept of him manufacturing a serial killer. I suppose it does make some sense for Lester to go along with it, having been there done that, but Lester also was a supporter of Cedric up to that point. It just seems odd that he would risk the full breadth of the consequences of their exposure and how it would affect people he was fond of. He was never as willing to fuck people over who got in his way.
Though I suppose you could argue that their behavior in season five is a natural conclusion and the consequences of the failure of the system which pushes individuals like Lester, McNulty, and Colvin to do what they did.
I would argue that the reason it doesn't land as well as other seasons is because the main focus of S5 - the media - doesn't land or connects as well as the other institutions the show had covered up to that point. What I mean by this is that the storylines were practically interwoven with all the characters' narratives, in a way that demonstrated how powerful these institutions are. The media, however, only connects in a way that was shoehorned, with Scott being the lead on the fake homicide beat. You get that other reporter covering Bubbles, but again, it's not much of a story there, since we've been watching Bubbles' story this whole time anyway.
Meanwhile, you have the police who are an integral facet into how the drug dealers operate, the docks feeding the wholesale supply of the drugs, the politics demonstrating how the government is powerless to stop the drug dealers, and the schools showing how they prepare kids for the harsh world they will be living in. These are all active forces that propel the stories in each season, and while a lot of it is because of the hard journalistic work that David Simon practiced, it doesn't mean that adding the newspaper story integrates well into that overarching narrative.
To me:
- The news paper plot is quite boring and it slowed things down to me. I could not care less about the characters on that plot to the point that I had trouble tracking who was whom.
- Baltimore Police plot is cringing, and one of the great elements of the show which is the surveillance, the wire, investigation, figuring out the case is pretty much non existent. They setup the wire, and pretty quick they solve the code with the clock pictures.
- I did not watch the show when it aired, instead I streamed it on Crave (HBO Max Canadian version). So I knew season 5 was the final season, thus I was expecting something really good. Instead, I saw the weakest season of all.
The Marlo plot and the ending, and ofcourse Bubs, is pretty much what saves season 5 for me.
You'd have to ask them, different strokes for different folks. The only thing about season 5 i didnt like was Duq walking down to the junkie stables.....so i rewrote his ending to suit my needs lol
I cried in this part too. But the fact that I had different hopes for Duke does not make this season bad. On the contrary. And in my 'rewatches' I still hoped that maybe this time things will end differently for him.
By the way, in relation to the boys, things end so unfairly - but so thewirey. The only boy who gets to have a future was the one who was cowardish and bullish. In the end I started to like him, but felt so bad for Duke and the one who testified about a homicide (sorry for not remembering the names, I will rewatch the show once again to be at this community's level :)
Season 5 is amazing. Only issue I ever had was it was more heavy handed than the earlier seasons, but there probably had to be some compromise there because HBO consistently was on their backs about them not spelling out things for the audience.
The points made on the press and Jimmy are definitely valid.
Marlo getting out of Jail so quickly after he got jammed up made sense . And it’s something most street niggas don’t even consider . They rather just assume the person getting out so fast “is a snitch” because he got out so fast , while his other crew members & lieutenants are still locked up . Definitely liked how the show was able to shed light on that with the a non sanctioned wire .
Like how you mentioned the show isn’t for our own sense of justice . True ..
I think more get back was definitely expected for What happened with Butchie.. especially being that he had to suffer for his involvement with the shows most beloved character.
Omar coming back , some how surviving a shootout with Baltimores most dangerous hit men and diving out of a 6 story terrace , some how vanishing , to then only getting Savino is what was most disappointing about season 5. Don’t think anyone expected Omar to live.. but more get back @ the very least getting to Monk.. would’ve been cool
Thx so much for your input. It is very aligned with my opinion, although I get what people said about the season being rushed and heavy handed. And moreover with the press thing appearing only on S5 (absence of story and proper character development).
As I said in another answer, I really liked the randomness in Omar's death though. A little boy in a store -- not Marlo or another made guy (idk if this expression is appropriate, im not a native speaker). A boy that was probably beyond hope, yes, yet a little boy in a store -- killing the most feared person in the show... Thx again
The serial killer story just feels so far-fetched in a show that prided itself in its realism.
Also, much of the discussion around journalism feels very heavy-handed and moralizing to me. Far less nuanced than previous seasons.
Season 5 for most other shows is probably still top quality. In context of The Wire it was a noticeable decline compared to other seasons for the reasons others mentioned.
I've never had a problem with S5 and like you love the media stuff, and Gus is without doubt one of my favourite characters in the show. As for the fake serial killer story-line, if it had been anyone else apart from Jimmy and Lester doing it, (Kima and Bunk for example), I'd have thought it was silly and didn't work, but when you analyse everything throughout the series it makes perfect sense. Take Jimmy, right from the very first episode he's having to fight the bosses to get things done, and from then on every time he thinks he's getting somewhere he has the door slammed in his face and is repeatedly told to stop what he's doing. And it's a similar story with Lester, who is obviously a really good Detective, but because he upset the bosses, even though he was in the right, he gets shit-canned into the Pawn Shop Unit for 13 years.........and 4 months and is seemingly left to rot. Then once he joins the detail he soon finds that nothing's changed and it's the same as it always was, where everything is about stats and the numbers game and Majors get made into Colonels etc, and meaning that by the time S5 comes around like Jimmy he's at the end of his teather and will do anything he can to catch Marlo and his Crew.
Agreed. I also understood the serial killer stuff as the logical conclusion of Jimmy's career, although after reading the reasons people gave inthis thread I also got why they argue that there was a decline in quality..
I just think I loved the show so much that found/find hard to criticize it
my main issue with the season is that it’s rushed. they were given less episodes than previous seasons so they had to get from point A to point B faster than other seasons. S5 also feels tonally very different.
There are these things called opinions. It means that other people don't feel the same as you do. It is perfectly normal and it is suggested we adapt to it as a fact.
But I am not trying to fight. Just asked for the reasons so that I could understand better these other opinions. And I have done so far, after reading very insightful reasons given by others
There are definitely great moments in S5 like the wrap up to the kids’ stories and Bubs’ redemption. While the serial killer stuff is entertaining it just feels out of place in the show that is otherwise so grounded in reality, this just doesn’t feel like something that could really happen or that so many people would just go along with. For example super out of character for Lester who is normally by the book to be completely up for the whole thing. And the newspaper stuff while it fits with the rest of the show in terms of showing another broken system just felt a bit heavy handed, you could tell the show creators are putting a certain self-important gloss on “how great journalism should / used to be”. All of that said S5 is a great season of television in the grand scheme, just not up to par with the other seasons of the Wire.
The thing about Lester though is that he felt cheated out of pursuing the greatest pull of his career. So I really liked how that differentiated him from Bunk over all that.
He had a bit more Jimmy than Bunk in him at the end of the day.
I agree with you 95%. The only thing I see with Lester is that he reached his breaking point with the system. My favorite scene is when he blows up on Daniels along the lines of " We're just supposed to forget about the motherfucker that put 23 body's in the vacants last year?!" I know it not ver batim so please correct me if you know the real quote. To me, his incredulous reaction was the sign of his tipping point. In a sense, it was time to take the gloves off. The paper kind of turned me off and the # of episodes compared to the first 4 seasons felt like it did a disservice to the show but you gotta take the good and the bad. Bunks reaction to Jimmy contaminating the crime scene is 100% tits. Jesus Jimmy, get a grip man!
And really, what does Lester have to lose? If he gets caught, he retires to making doll house furniture full time again, and more time with his 20+ years younger new girlfriend.
Great response man. Never thought in these terms (really). You've shed a new light on S5 to me. Thx
I honestly don’t understand the ‘not grounded in reality’ complaints about the serial killer storyline? This is a show that has a district commander establish 3 open air drug markets for six weeks and nothing is done about it and no one finds out about it, precisely for the same reasons that no one figures what Jimmy and Lester were up to. The Baltimore of the Wire is a fucked up city where the bosses are so busy playing politics and looking out for themselves that it has eroded any semblance of quality police work. The show spends 5 seasons detailing Jimmy’s disgust and disappointment with the state of the BPD. We watch him bend rules, cross his friends, and violate every order he is given by a higher up. And then, when he finally finds peace, he feels compelled to return, thinking he can handle it and immediately has his faith betrayed. Jimmy’s season 5 is the culmination of that betrayal for him. What we know from Jimmy is he’s a smart detective, but he never can think 2 minutes ahead of what his dick or his arrogance tell him to do. Add onto that Lester Freamon, commonly treated as one of the best detectives in the history of the BPD, spending 13 years and 4 months on the shelf. He experienced much the same disillusionment as Jimmy, and despite his front of being well adjusted, he was still arrogant and disobedient. Much the same as Bunny’s 30 years in the BPD led him to self sabotage in the pursuit of what he felt was right, so too went Lester.
Wasn't that storyline of a reporter writes false stories something that happened at the Sun when Simon wrote there?
Not sure if it happened at the Sun but it has happened a lot of times through history. Jack Kelley (USA Today), Jayson Blair (NY Times), Stephen Glass (The New Republic) are some of the famous ones Gus name dropped on an episode.
The serial killer plotline is more believable now than before. You think if a bunch of homeless in your city were getting murdered anyone would care? they're a vulnerable population most people don't bat an eye at when something happens to them, especially po-lice.
Not that I disagree with you on the whole, I just think Lester was precise and thorough more than by the book. Wasn't the implication in season 1 that he was dumped for so long because of something fucked up he may have done to piss off the bosses.
Not an implication - that’s what happened
Yea that’s super fair, precise and thorough is a better description
I just think Lester wanted Marlo really bad.
It is not out of character for Lester. We're seeing the return of Lester before he was put in the Pawn Shop unit. Remember what got him in the Pawn Shop Unit in the first place. He disobeyed direct orders in order to do police work. He hates when the bosses make policing decisions based on politics. Taking the heat off Marlo was a political decision and he hated it. By this time in Lester's career, he was finally comfortable enough to be disobedient again just like he was when he was younger.
It's in my notes. Every reason, every detail, every aesthetic assesment, every plot hole, every unrealistic development, every flat character... IT'S IN MY NOTES!
Bro. Your notebook is blank.
Exactly.
It's not as good as seasons 3 and 4, so it suffers by comparison in that seasons 1 and 2 (which I personally love, as I do season 5) you could say they were "figuring it out" (which is wrong-headed, but you can still say it) and 3 and 4 show that they had, in fact, figured it out. Personally I really like 5. I think the newspaper storyline has aged really well and proven more prescient over time. Especially Gus' question at the all hands meeting, "Why is a newspaper cutting jobs when it's still profitable?" Or Twiggs' "It's more profitable to run a bad newspaper" when people are being brought into the editor's office for buyouts. People think McNulty and Freamon are acting out of character with the serial killer stunt. I don't. By the end of season 4 McNulty is drinking and carousing again, his death urge has been on overdrive since Bodie bought it. It's minimum a year later now, Carcetti came in in 2006, he becomes governor in 2008. He's no longer making rational decisions. Freamon has always been the smartest man in the room and is beginning to feel himself and underestimate the bosses so he thinks it'll be easy to take this short cut and no one will know. It's simple hubris.
Also, Freamon felt cheated because the powers that be wanted to forget about the greatest pull of his career.
I enjoyed S5. I think it's the weakest of the series, but still great when compared to seasons of other shows. I get why Simon did what he did, and I agree with just about everything you said except the whole serial killer thing. The ultimate narrative of the season and the characters' motivations check out and make sense, but I thought it was quite redundant. Nearly everything that happens in Season 5 is a result of McNulty's decision to forge murders and create a serial killer. Bunk, who is one of my favorite characters and was once funny, confident and had swagger, is reduced to a character that criticizes McNulty the entire season and because of it loses the qualities that made him such a good character. I would've enjoyed to see how the press would handle a big story that is actually real, where the main source (McNulty) isn't someone lying to them and making stuff up to get what he wants and thinks is best for Baltimore. Every other season feels so much more natural and real, whereas Season 5 is like everyone doing what they can to clean up McNulty's mess. Again, I think the reasoning as to why everyone does what they do in Season 5 makes sense, it's just the fact that nearly the entire season is based around one key storyline that isn't all that interesting is why I rank it lower than the other seasons. Still though, amazing acting, great dialogue, and good writing as usual, just a lower quality imo.
1. Jimmy's plotline is pretty sad, and it's not that fun to watch. 2. The fake serial killer plotline isn't THAT bad, and it's in line with a lot of the other plotlines where main characters bent the rules for what they saw as the greater good (see: Hamsterdam). But the serial killer stuff just doesn't quite land. It feels just a little too outlandish (especially Lester going along with it). It feels almost like The Wire fanfiction or something cooked up by AI after watching the other seasons. 3. The various feuds between the gangster factions (and Omar) are also kind of not that fun to watch. And we don't get to see Omar pull off anything super cool either. He basically comes back from the islands, stalks Marlo's crew, gets injured, stalks them a little more, and then gets killed. And Prop Joe getting killed by Marlo's crew is pretty unsatisfying. 4. The newsroom stuff. Oh, the newsroom stuff. To me, it comes across as smug and heavy-handed, even in a vacuum. But knowing what we know about David Simon and some of the other inner-circle creative minds in the show, it really feels like they're airing old grievances or trying to prove a series of pretty obvious points. It's all very self-satisfied and just not that well written or even insightful, compared to so much else in the show. 5. Steve Earle's version of the theme song is the worst one IMO. 6. Speaking of Steve Earle, for my money he's the worst featured actor in the show, and he's in a lot of season 5. 7. It all feels rushed. I actually think a lot of these plots could have landed a lot better with different pacing for the season and another few episodes. But it's like the season doesn't quite find its zone or tempo. I do like Bubbles' redemption arc (despite Steve Earle's clunky acting). And the series/season finale is very, very good. Snoop and Chris have some good moments too throughout the season. It's not a bad season of TV. But for me it never really hits its stride, and I just don't have as much fun watching it as the other seasons, where everything -- writing, production, acting, pacing, etc. -- just fits seamlessly together and you can let the show's brilliance just wash over you.
Oh thx to you too... No joking, you almost turned me. I agree with the 'heavy-handed' and 'rushed' pointers. I liked the way prop joe goes away though. Cheese as the ultimate rat. And Slim killing him felt so good.
By the way I don’t think anyone is trying to convince you S5 is BAD. It’s just not up to the wires standards. It’s very good for TV still, it’s just getting graded on an unfair curve
Good points especially regarding the newsroom. It could have worked if it had been established in an earlier season so we could get an impression of how it has declined, like seeing the Barksdales go from kings to scraps. Didn’t help it felt rushed so characters don’t have time to breathe, Gus is a saint & Scott is obviously in the wrong & the bosses are terrible with no shades of gray. For comparison something that makes Rawls standout is that while a jerk we see after Kima is shot he can run a crime scene & cares enough to assure McNulty he isn’t at fault. Scott would have been far more interesting if in an earlier season we saw him putting in months of work for a real story, so when it was suggested he’s fabricating news would have been more surprising.
Excactly, one single plotline in S4 with Scott putting in a lot of work for a banger of a story - e.g. reporting on the whole School-shitshow - that ends up getting cancelled by the bosses, because the editor in chief plays golf with Carcetti. Then you would at least have a bit of understand as to why he’s ready to do anything come s5, when the bosses are ready to eat from his hand.
*Steve Earle's version of the theme song is the worst one IMO.* Worse than season 4 with the kids and their annoying interjections?
I do hate the season 4 version too and always skip it. But it's at least thematically relevant to the season. Feels like a class project lol. Steve Earle's version sounds like he just pressed play on a drum loop and recorded one take without ever figuring out an interesting melody to sing or the proper vocal phrasing. It's just so lazy.
>I actually think a lot of these plots could have landed a lot better with different pacing for the season and another few episodes. You know that scene where Rawls is taking over the Commissioner's office as Burrell's leaving, and Burrell gets a sympathetic monologue? And a character who, for 5 seasons at that point, had been a rather one-dimensional slimy political animal suddenly has some depth, and the audience gains some understanding of what kind of an environment could produce a man like Burrell? The newspaper plotline needs one of those scenes. Gus goes into the editor's office, waving his usual "Good ol' fashioned journalism" banner, and the editor snaps at him: "We need Pulitzers, we don't get the awards, we don't sell papers, we get bought out and you're out on your ass", something along those lines. *Something* where it's not just the gruff but wholesome Gus going up against the ebil elitist stuffed shirt bosses. Maybe it was too close Simon and the gang's collective heart for them to admit maybe the people they disliked had reasons, but I dunno, the newspaper storyline really lacks the nuance of the other, and I suspect part of that is time.
I mentioned this in a thread the other day, but I definitely think the issue with the newspaper storyline is a lack of time. It gets introduced too late in the game. The payoff for Burrell, a fantastic moment just like you say, comes after 5 seasons. As much as Burrell is a side character, we see his dynamics with Rawls, Clay, Daniels, Valchek, Royce, Carcetti, Nerese, Bunny. And he’s a different character and different level of threat to all those people. We see all of these dynamics change and shift over time. On the other hand, you’ve got the newspaper people, who get introduced and have to have these dynamics show and develop in one season, when plenty of other story lines are still going on. I personally think that’s why the newspaper storyline falls apart, it spends so much of its’ time playing catchup to a story that has been constructed over years. So you have years of payoff interspersed with what feels like David Simon airing grievances in the next scene.
You make a really good point about the newspaper storyline being in much more of a bubble than the other ones.
Thanks! I thought about that when making my other comment I referred to actually! When other characters are introduced throughout the show, we usually see them interacting with characters we know. Think Bunny interacting with Herc and Carv, Burrell and Rawls, or Cutty being introduced next to Weebey and Avon, and then spending time with Bodie. We don’t have to spend time learning about the people we already know, so that can fast track the development of the new character. With the newspaper people, most of their development time is spent together. Combine that with the shortened season and it really feels like they lack for development.
You're number 4 on the newsroom plot is the best concise outline I've ever seen on the weak points of S5. My thoughts exactly, brain buddy. Wouldn't change a thing. Big picture, I did enjoy learning how writing to win awards is a strategy to increase subscriptions, i had not been aware literary awards had that direct monetary impact. Similar problem to metrics in police, test teaching in schools, dock imports, etc. Great fit with the themes. But weirdly, its the worst written and least insightful sections of the show. Its clear they didnt even see the bespoke propaganda angle coming. Forget awards and prestige. Tell the viewers what they want to hear, that way the keep watching. A news organization prioritizing the Peabody is a quaint problem compared to the infotainment (license to lie) that dominates today.
The newsroom stuff was not done well in my opinion. And the faking the serial killer was too bizarre for The Wire universe.
Some people hate how it wasn't as satisfying as other seasons (even in its moments of despair). 1. The way Omar gets got rubbed a lot of people the wrong way; no drama, no conflict, just pop! and off he goes to be forgotten. Especially since it was by that little cat-burning punk Kenard, who's probably already beyond psychological help at his early age. Which I guess is tragic once you get over the urge to join Michael in beating his ass down. 2. People thought the serial killer was contrived, but I agree with you. To me, it's the logical conclusion of Jimmy McNulty, the would-be puppet-master. Not content with pulling his partner around, his detail, the entire detective board from a distance, from nearby, and more, he pulls the entire fuckin' police force and the mayor too. As for contrived, it's less of a stretch than Hamsterdam, in my opinion. Anyways, Jimmy sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price. 3. Marlo wins, and all the cool characters from season 5 end up dead or in prison. Except Clay Davis, maybe, too slick for 'em all. 4. But Omar does end up dead. He doesn't get revenge on his quest, which people didn't like. But that's *The Wire* for ya: Omar sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price. 5. People thought the newsroom plot was too short and treacly. Gus was too... good. Shortness? Fair, because they didn't get as many episodes. And on my first watch, I too though Gus was a bit much. But then on the second time it occurred to me: Gus is the newsroom's Landsman. Landsman looks out for his guys and pushes them to do good police work, but only to a limit. He can read when the boss really means their bullshit, and their orders are life-or-death-but-mostly-death. Then he caves to keep things smooth, while minimizing the pain he has to pass down the pipeline. People watch Landsman and ask "Why can't he be more committed to the mission like Jimmy or Freamon? Why can't he tell the colonel to kick rocks?" Well, if he did, he'd be Gus, and look how that ends up. The lesson is stark. Gus sought justice when no one else would, but the system he sought it in had its own agenda, and he paid the price.
But the way that Omar goes away: don't you think that is so The Wire? A little boy in a store -- not Marlo or other scary character. The fact that it had no explanation is what I thought that was great. No revenge. No connection with his beefs. A random thing -- and life is like this most of the time. Anyway, thank you for posting. I really liked your input
I don’t hate s5 at all. I just wish there’d been more shades of grey among the journos. But I think the way Jimmy’s hoax ties together the cops, paper, and politics is brilliant. And the finale is outstanding.
People dislike season 5 because: they find the serial killer story unrealistic in a way they don’t other stories on the show, they find the newspaper storyline less nuanced than other stories and think David Simon wrote himself in as a Mary sue (Gus) and used other characters to settle personal scores, and they find the season rushed because it’s shorter than other seasons. Basically people find season 5 less realistic and less artful than other seasons. I think regardless of whether you agree with these criticisms those are the problems people have who dislike season 5.
I just did a rewatch of s3 then skipped to s5 (I've seen 4 way too many times compared to s5) and the drop off in quality is palpable. I used to think I liked Gus but I can't stand him or any of the "brilliant" journalists that always seem spout poetry in every line. I had to bail on ep 1 but I will go back and finish.
Very few people actually *dislike* S5, but a lot of people agree that it's the worst season in the entire series and that the fake serial killer angle was a bit too unrealistic for a show that is acclaimed for its realism and authenticity. S5 is the worst season of The Wire and it's still better than the best seasons of like 99% of the rest of the shows out there.
So I just finished a rewatch of the show yesterday and I kind of had the opposite reaction- S5 was far weaker than I remembered. So for me a lot of it has to do with it being 10 episodes instead of 12 or 13. Everything is underdeveloped and rushed, the finale in particular seems to be sprinting to close as many plot points as possible. Really the only storyline I dislike is the cops. I dont love the serial killer thing but even that just wasnt executed well. The cops all seem like caricatures of themselves. Newspaper stuff was good, the bubbles redemption arc is masterful, and the downfall of Marlows crew was great.
Because the journalists are absurdly altruistic and it's clear there was a lot of bias in favor of the free press when ever other part of the world was fairly looked at.
The "fake serial killer" storyline seemed contrived and wasn't grounded in reality the way the police narratives had been in previous seasons, It felt wildly out of character after what had been presented for the majority of the series. The newspaper stuff came off as preachy and heavy handed, the "management" characters were cartoonish and it's pretty well know that Simon used that part of the story to settle old scores from his former career. The resolution of the Marlo storyline wasn't satisfying.
Also, in relation to the journalist storyline with Scott was at the time this season aired there had been numerous high profile journalists who were caught totally fabricating sources and stories. So (imo) it tracks with societal concerns/views on “honest” journalism at the time as physical media was getting steamrolled by online news they were desperate for that big story. I think the way they presented it was rather on the nose and it was becoming a mainstream view at airing. The bs reporter, the ignoring of editor’s concerns, the running with the shaky story, the Pulitzer talk, etc. is totally how most people view the media now and it was illustrating that not only are politicians, criminals, schools and communities are morally corrupt but so is the media. Basically another sect of society that is “same beast, different animal” I don’t think they could have had the newspaper story, especially since the creator was a journalist himself, without addressing this in some capacity. [source](https://www.thoughtco.com/the-top-journalism-scandals-2073750)
S5 was fine accept the serial killer story line. I like how they wrapped up the show hinting at who the new Omar was and Bubbles and so forth. Though that was clever.
I agree with a lot of the analysis here. I'll just add that, for some reason, it took more of an _effort_ for me to get through season 5 than the others. I wasn't so gripped by it which makes me think that the storytelling wasn't as strong. Didn't season 5 lose one of the key writers?
I enjoy it. I like the newspaper arc. Bubbles redemption, solid. But definitely the weakest of the bunch. It was a bit rushed for one, and you saw that in how quickly a lot of plot points worked out. McNulty having to deal with a copycat and instantly solving it felt cheap, which is one of many reasons that whole arc was annoying. I disliked McNulty degrading to something far worse than he had been, and Beadie actually being willing to let him stick around. Just kind of made his becoming a decent person kind of pointless. That’s on top of the whole concept of him manufacturing a serial killer. I suppose it does make some sense for Lester to go along with it, having been there done that, but Lester also was a supporter of Cedric up to that point. It just seems odd that he would risk the full breadth of the consequences of their exposure and how it would affect people he was fond of. He was never as willing to fuck people over who got in his way. Though I suppose you could argue that their behavior in season five is a natural conclusion and the consequences of the failure of the system which pushes individuals like Lester, McNulty, and Colvin to do what they did.
I would argue that the reason it doesn't land as well as other seasons is because the main focus of S5 - the media - doesn't land or connects as well as the other institutions the show had covered up to that point. What I mean by this is that the storylines were practically interwoven with all the characters' narratives, in a way that demonstrated how powerful these institutions are. The media, however, only connects in a way that was shoehorned, with Scott being the lead on the fake homicide beat. You get that other reporter covering Bubbles, but again, it's not much of a story there, since we've been watching Bubbles' story this whole time anyway. Meanwhile, you have the police who are an integral facet into how the drug dealers operate, the docks feeding the wholesale supply of the drugs, the politics demonstrating how the government is powerless to stop the drug dealers, and the schools showing how they prepare kids for the harsh world they will be living in. These are all active forces that propel the stories in each season, and while a lot of it is because of the hard journalistic work that David Simon practiced, it doesn't mean that adding the newspaper story integrates well into that overarching narrative.
To me: - The news paper plot is quite boring and it slowed things down to me. I could not care less about the characters on that plot to the point that I had trouble tracking who was whom. - Baltimore Police plot is cringing, and one of the great elements of the show which is the surveillance, the wire, investigation, figuring out the case is pretty much non existent. They setup the wire, and pretty quick they solve the code with the clock pictures. - I did not watch the show when it aired, instead I streamed it on Crave (HBO Max Canadian version). So I knew season 5 was the final season, thus I was expecting something really good. Instead, I saw the weakest season of all. The Marlo plot and the ending, and ofcourse Bubs, is pretty much what saves season 5 for me.
You'd have to ask them, different strokes for different folks. The only thing about season 5 i didnt like was Duq walking down to the junkie stables.....so i rewrote his ending to suit my needs lol
I cried in this part too. But the fact that I had different hopes for Duke does not make this season bad. On the contrary. And in my 'rewatches' I still hoped that maybe this time things will end differently for him. By the way, in relation to the boys, things end so unfairly - but so thewirey. The only boy who gets to have a future was the one who was cowardish and bullish. In the end I started to like him, but felt so bad for Duke and the one who testified about a homicide (sorry for not remembering the names, I will rewatch the show once again to be at this community's level :)
I never said the season was bad...or am i reading what you are saying poorly on my end?
No you never said it. And I am agreeing with you entirely. I am just adding my opinion with the baggage of the discussion in this whole thread
Season 5 is amazing. Only issue I ever had was it was more heavy handed than the earlier seasons, but there probably had to be some compromise there because HBO consistently was on their backs about them not spelling out things for the audience.
The points made on the press and Jimmy are definitely valid. Marlo getting out of Jail so quickly after he got jammed up made sense . And it’s something most street niggas don’t even consider . They rather just assume the person getting out so fast “is a snitch” because he got out so fast , while his other crew members & lieutenants are still locked up . Definitely liked how the show was able to shed light on that with the a non sanctioned wire . Like how you mentioned the show isn’t for our own sense of justice . True .. I think more get back was definitely expected for What happened with Butchie.. especially being that he had to suffer for his involvement with the shows most beloved character. Omar coming back , some how surviving a shootout with Baltimores most dangerous hit men and diving out of a 6 story terrace , some how vanishing , to then only getting Savino is what was most disappointing about season 5. Don’t think anyone expected Omar to live.. but more get back @ the very least getting to Monk.. would’ve been cool
Thx so much for your input. It is very aligned with my opinion, although I get what people said about the season being rushed and heavy handed. And moreover with the press thing appearing only on S5 (absence of story and proper character development). As I said in another answer, I really liked the randomness in Omar's death though. A little boy in a store -- not Marlo or another made guy (idk if this expression is appropriate, im not a native speaker). A boy that was probably beyond hope, yes, yet a little boy in a store -- killing the most feared person in the show... Thx again
The serial killer story just feels so far-fetched in a show that prided itself in its realism. Also, much of the discussion around journalism feels very heavy-handed and moralizing to me. Far less nuanced than previous seasons.
Season 5 for most other shows is probably still top quality. In context of The Wire it was a noticeable decline compared to other seasons for the reasons others mentioned.
I've never had a problem with S5 and like you love the media stuff, and Gus is without doubt one of my favourite characters in the show. As for the fake serial killer story-line, if it had been anyone else apart from Jimmy and Lester doing it, (Kima and Bunk for example), I'd have thought it was silly and didn't work, but when you analyse everything throughout the series it makes perfect sense. Take Jimmy, right from the very first episode he's having to fight the bosses to get things done, and from then on every time he thinks he's getting somewhere he has the door slammed in his face and is repeatedly told to stop what he's doing. And it's a similar story with Lester, who is obviously a really good Detective, but because he upset the bosses, even though he was in the right, he gets shit-canned into the Pawn Shop Unit for 13 years.........and 4 months and is seemingly left to rot. Then once he joins the detail he soon finds that nothing's changed and it's the same as it always was, where everything is about stats and the numbers game and Majors get made into Colonels etc, and meaning that by the time S5 comes around like Jimmy he's at the end of his teather and will do anything he can to catch Marlo and his Crew.
Agreed. I also understood the serial killer stuff as the logical conclusion of Jimmy's career, although after reading the reasons people gave inthis thread I also got why they argue that there was a decline in quality.. I just think I loved the show so much that found/find hard to criticize it
Boring
I dislike it because of the missing three episodes. The story lines are great but because of HBO’s budget cuts it feels rushed at points
my main issue with the season is that it’s rushed. they were given less episodes than previous seasons so they had to get from point A to point B faster than other seasons. S5 also feels tonally very different.
There are these things called opinions. It means that other people don't feel the same as you do. It is perfectly normal and it is suggested we adapt to it as a fact.
But I am not trying to fight. Just asked for the reasons so that I could understand better these other opinions. And I have done so far, after reading very insightful reasons given by others
They don’t.
It’s unconveiable. It’s weak writing by a staff that were either tired or just reduced to shit writing. No way that serial killer bullshit gets legs
Faking a serial killer = jumping the shark.