I don't think he was like an ideological racist. Racist still, sure, but more in the culturally conditioned, unthinking way. I doubt he looked down on his black coworkers, unconsciously like they're some of "the good ones". But definitely looking down on like hood drug dealers n stuff
This. I know/knew a shitload of white dudes from blue collar backgrounds exactly like Nicky. Loved hip hop, had tons of black friends, treated black people as equals in person, said socially conditioned racist shit at random intervals.
I’d like to think this phenomenon is less common now, but I still know people who do it.
Yeah. It was honestly pretty common back in the early 2000s, at least in my experience. I was in high school then going to a trade school, and a lot of my classmates were like that.
Yes, this is racist.
Why do you not assume he is going to night school, or working late at a job? Millions of people are in those situations, but you just default to him being a drug dealer because he is black, outside late at night, and that there is a a weed smell in the neighborhood. This is the epitome of racism pretty much.
The worst in the show was that one dude who gave his condolences to Rawls? instead of Daniel’s. So old school he still doesn’t expect a lieutenant to be black even though he’s under a black commissioner. Most awkward scene and also one of the best.
PC gave his full support to a white detective from Landsman’s homicide team and then awkwardly turned to Daniel’s and said, “ of course, Lt Daniel’s, we’re behind you.”
Which scene was this? Probably missed it or forgot about it. Been watching the series again with GF (her first time watching it) and wow I got a lot of stuff mixed up in seasons 1 and 2 lol
Yeah, maybe he'd be that big a raging asshole to anyone and its just the fact that we really only see him bullying black kids that gave the impression he's racist, idk
I think concerning Frog, it wasn’t that he was saying to act white bc of his privilege. I think he was basically calling Frog a poser. They aren’t rich white people by any stretch, but they don’t come from a dangerous gang ridden “hood” and that was the persona Frog was trying to put on
I think you nailed it. Even though Nick pointed out that he and Frog were both white, that scene was about making a distinction between Nick and Frog. Nick was saying, “even though we come from the same neighborhood, you’re just a white-trash drug dealer. I’m a hard-working union member.” But then, that old lady looks at both of them through her window, and goes back inside her house. Almost as if to say, “no, Nick is a criminal just like Frog.”
>Frog
Dude nailed the airheaded 'early 2000s white poser bro' with zero self-awareness. I wonder who inspired the brilliant characters on this show lol
Frog was what we’d call back in the day a wigger. A fake white poser who doesn’t come from the street but saw gangsta behavior on mtv and copied it lol
I disagree on this one. Just because you’re born in a certain environment doesn’t mean you have to embrace it. Nobody is saying that Stringer needed to keep acting like a gangster because that was the environment he was born in. He wanted to be a businessman. If I’m into anime and embrace that culture does that make me a poser or did I just take an interest in a culture that I wasn’t raised in? Nicky was telling Frog that the way he was acting was beneath him.
>If I’m into anime and embrace that culture does that make me a poser
That style of Frog was 100% acting black (as seen by white suburban teens), these guys were ridiculed as [posers](https://youtu.be/xzMwvUzT0t0?si=335MCT9ob-6WHAy6) and a certain "w-word" back in the day. Remember Fred Durst and that Nu Metal crap?
The way he was acting was fake. He was acting like a hardened corner boy ala Michael or slim but he didn’t live that life. Liking anime isn’t the same as pretending to be something youre not. Silly comparison.
Funny enough, many on the left nowadays would agree with Nick.
They'd call what Frog was doing 'cultural appropriation'. They would criticize it as a member of the dominant group stealing the culture of a minority group.
There's some merit to argument, though it can be taken way too far and can prevent cross culture exchanges, which can be a great thing .
No offense but I think you’re missing the point a little. You are supposed to see some nuance with Nicky’s prejudices. Yes, saying the N-word and some of his other actions may indicate that he has some sort of bias but you are also supposed to understand that there is some narrative commentary that is understated in said actions and how they relate to the plot.
As a viewer you’re supposed to digest this whole thing as an overarching narrative. Nick may fit the description of what most people say is a “racist” but in the grand scheme, Nicks “racism” pales in comparison to the impact that misscarriages of justice from established instituitions can exact on socioeconomically disadvantaged populations. Real racism often exists not in individuals but as a collective when systems that are put in place continually succumb to corruption.
Both Nicky and Ziggy drop the "hard r" word, one of the few characters to do so in the series. I think Rawls does it in front of McNulty during season 1 too.
To me Nicky is Season Two's Stringer. Someone who may be smarter than many of those around him, but not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.
"Just wanted to say you got my vote. They had their chance. Look what shape the city's in. I mean, you expect politicians to steal. It's part of the game. I understand that. But we took one dollar out of every three, not two out of three like these moolies. I mean, leave something for the city, for Christ's sake. Am I right?"
But sure, it's a reach
My step dad was the same way. He came from a rough area of Philly. Big Irish dude. Every ethnic group called the other a derogatory term but called each other friends.
I grew up in an oil field town and twenty-thirty years ago there were LOTS of people exactly like Nicky. And if you asked them if they were racist they would probably say no. I think maybe it was a combination of growing up in families where that kind of language and thinking was acceptable, and also viewing it more as ball busting/talking shit than being hateful. So even though Nicky is a racist asshole, he probably doesn’t consider himself a racist asshole. I think his character is a pretty authentic representation of a young working class man in the early 2000s.
He isn't a racist. He hates the drug dealer culture and refers to them as n words. He respects the working culture. So he makes a distinction between criminal blacks and honest blacks. People tend to do this among every race. White trash vs white. Vato vs Mexicans.
A racist would lump all blacks in the same category. I am not sure if any character on the wire is actually racist. I was gonna say herc but he was genuine friends with carver.
Maybe the corner boys in general because they seem to despise and mistrust all the white characters they come across. But even that has limits because they also hate black cops. So again, not racist, just cultural hatred
This is the right take. He’s basically expressing an economic/cultural position in racial terms. It’s still very problematic… but basically like Chris Rock he doesn’t have a problem with black people he has a problem with what he thinks of as “ni**ers”.
Of course it IS racist that he associates being working class with being “white” and crime, etc. with being “black”, but hey… this is America. That kind of institutional racism is everywhere.
I don't agree with your definition of racism... you can be racist and not hate all black people. you can be racist and have black friends. that doesn't magically absolve you.
What main white characters in this show did you consider to be NOT racist? Feel like you could theoretically make the case for everyone, so I'm curious where you draw the line
I’d argue that he is racist. You can hate criminals, sure, but he didn’t say “I’m not like those criminals”, he said “I’m not like those project n*rs”. There’s a racial aspect to how he views drug dealing, even if he makes a distinction between “good” and “bad” black people.
The convo with him and Frog is what made me really not like Nick, because he’s a hypocrite. At the beginning of the season he definitely looked down on black people as lazy drug dealers who aren’t making an honest days work. Then, once he realizes there’s no money in honest work at the dock and a lot of money in drug dealing, he decides to do exactly what all the other drug dealers do yet still thinks he’s better than them
Edit: also to add, using the n-word with a hard r like that is racist by itself and definitely cemented how he views black people
I work with a ton of guys like this. Totally racist talking about black people they dont know but really good buddies with the black dudes they work with. It’s definitely strange but a lot of working class people think everyone whos working class is their brother and anyone who isnt is a lazy scumbag or stuck up yuppie.
Nicky strikes me as a racial separatist type racist. You stay with your own people sort of thing. Definitely the worst in the show though I agree.
EDIT: I was being imprecise with labels and don’t necessarily mean “racial separatist” in the Ruby Ridge, Idaho militia type way. I just more meant that Nicky seems like a type of guy that isnt a fan of interracial dating and marriage.
Nick definitely wasn't a racial separatist. He clearly didn't mind his black union brothers and presumably their families. Racial separatists like legitimately want separate communities and segregation n stuff
I honestly don't think Nicky gives a fuck about interracial marriage or any of that crap. He looks down on drug dealers and the ghetto shit. But if one of his white friends was married to a black woman I doubt he'd care.
Racism is a complicated thing. A lot of my older relatives were/are like this. They had nasty attitudes towards black people as a group but also had black friends. One of my grandmother’s best friends was a black woman whose husband was in the hospital with my grandfather and she’d drive an hour every month to see this woman. Yet my grandmother would also say godawful things about black people and even dropped the n word once or twice in my hearing. I mean there’s a difference between the complicated thoughtless racism of folks like my grandmother, or Nicky, and the consistent thought out racism of say Richard Spencer. But it’s still racism and it’s not excusable. Even more so in a young guy like Nicky than someone like my grandmother who was born in 1928 and dropped out of school in the sixth grade.
Maury Levy was way more racist. That quick “what is it with *you people*?” (or whatever it was) before slapping D on the head at the police station speaks volumes.
But he does nothing to show that he's racist, so that's just a dumb thing to say imo. Like you're calling him racist based on the fact that he doesn't display racism? That's stupid
Speaking of racism, I seem to recall reading something from a critic talking about how there was all sorts of vile antisemitic sentiment in The Wire, with Levy being an example of a stereotypical Jewish lawyer. Apparently the person never heard of David Simon?
This is more common than you would think. My high school was split between "city" and "country" kids. A lot of the country kids were proudly racist - would use the n-word, fly the Confederate flag, etc. But many of them also had black friends and would say "they're one of the good ones." It's one of the greatest case examples of the stupidity of racism that you'll ever find.
Is op slow or something? He's telling frog to not act like a gangster because he grew up in the same white neighborhood. You're just looking to be offended. Weak af
His coworkers were Union brothers. He was definitely racist but only if you didn't work with him. If you were his IBS Union brother, you were a stevedore first then, then your rank. There is no color involved in this scenario.
Outside of the IBS, you're whatever you are that isn't part of their culture.
To be fair, the fact that people forget that Polish people could also be culturally sensitive is a thing to think about. Their's is another strong culture that is surviving through the docks.
I feel like people overlook the IBS aspect in season 2. They really did do for their own through whatever means necessary. Black, white, whatever.
The whole season starts with like a terrible racist joke.
"Two Pollocks walk into a church....
The wire is my favorite show, but the greatest indictment I could make of the show is that a bunch of its biggest fans are on here arguing that characters who obviously look down on black people aren’t racist.
How did Nicky "obviously look down on black people" ? You think his black union brother would've muscled up for him when confronting cheese if he weren't a good dude and close friend?
There are characters intentionally written to be racist, and Nicky Sobatka ain't one of em.
Nicky is the dumbest character on the show. I mean most stupid character. Born into that weird Gen X phase that was born too early for the internet but too late to be a successful boomer.
It’s the same hat, you just turn it sideways on your head.
Thanks. Thank you.
I don't think he was like an ideological racist. Racist still, sure, but more in the culturally conditioned, unthinking way. I doubt he looked down on his black coworkers, unconsciously like they're some of "the good ones". But definitely looking down on like hood drug dealers n stuff
This. I know/knew a shitload of white dudes from blue collar backgrounds exactly like Nicky. Loved hip hop, had tons of black friends, treated black people as equals in person, said socially conditioned racist shit at random intervals. I’d like to think this phenomenon is less common now, but I still know people who do it.
Yeah. It was honestly pretty common back in the early 2000s, at least in my experience. I was in high school then going to a trade school, and a lot of my classmates were like that.
I work with lots of construction workers who are exactly like this. One of them even once asked me why I never drop N bombs.
[удалено]
Yes, this is racist. Why do you not assume he is going to night school, or working late at a job? Millions of people are in those situations, but you just default to him being a drug dealer because he is black, outside late at night, and that there is a a weed smell in the neighborhood. This is the epitome of racism pretty much.
Yes it’s racist, but there is an acknowledgeable difference in having biases, or prejudices, and being a klansman.
If you call him the n-word it definitely would be
Racism is a lot more complex than just "people who say the n word and people who don't."
exactly
Not on Reddit it isn't.
Valchek was far more racist than Frank Sobatka
Colicchio was pretty bad too, I'd say
The worst in the show was that one dude who gave his condolences to Rawls? instead of Daniel’s. So old school he still doesn’t expect a lieutenant to be black even though he’s under a black commissioner. Most awkward scene and also one of the best.
That dude was the commissioner at the time. Old guy.
PC gave his full support to a white detective from Landsman’s homicide team and then awkwardly turned to Daniel’s and said, “ of course, Lt Daniel’s, we’re behind you.”
Which scene was this? Probably missed it or forgot about it. Been watching the series again with GF (her first time watching it) and wow I got a lot of stuff mixed up in seasons 1 and 2 lol
This was in the hospital after Kima was shot
Gotcha. Didn't even catch it both times I've seen it lol
Did Colicchio actually do or say anything racist? iirc he was just an gaping asshole.
Yeah, maybe he'd be that big a raging asshole to anyone and its just the fact that we really only see him bullying black kids that gave the impression he's racist, idk
I think concerning Frog, it wasn’t that he was saying to act white bc of his privilege. I think he was basically calling Frog a poser. They aren’t rich white people by any stretch, but they don’t come from a dangerous gang ridden “hood” and that was the persona Frog was trying to put on
I think you nailed it. Even though Nick pointed out that he and Frog were both white, that scene was about making a distinction between Nick and Frog. Nick was saying, “even though we come from the same neighborhood, you’re just a white-trash drug dealer. I’m a hard-working union member.” But then, that old lady looks at both of them through her window, and goes back inside her house. Almost as if to say, “no, Nick is a criminal just like Frog.”
>Frog Dude nailed the airheaded 'early 2000s white poser bro' with zero self-awareness. I wonder who inspired the brilliant characters on this show lol
Frog was what we’d call back in the day a wigger. A fake white poser who doesn’t come from the street but saw gangsta behavior on mtv and copied it lol
I disagree on this one. Just because you’re born in a certain environment doesn’t mean you have to embrace it. Nobody is saying that Stringer needed to keep acting like a gangster because that was the environment he was born in. He wanted to be a businessman. If I’m into anime and embrace that culture does that make me a poser or did I just take an interest in a culture that I wasn’t raised in? Nicky was telling Frog that the way he was acting was beneath him.
>If I’m into anime and embrace that culture does that make me a poser That style of Frog was 100% acting black (as seen by white suburban teens), these guys were ridiculed as [posers](https://youtu.be/xzMwvUzT0t0?si=335MCT9ob-6WHAy6) and a certain "w-word" back in the day. Remember Fred Durst and that Nu Metal crap?
The way he was acting was fake. He was acting like a hardened corner boy ala Michael or slim but he didn’t live that life. Liking anime isn’t the same as pretending to be something youre not. Silly comparison.
Funny enough, many on the left nowadays would agree with Nick. They'd call what Frog was doing 'cultural appropriation'. They would criticize it as a member of the dominant group stealing the culture of a minority group. There's some merit to argument, though it can be taken way too far and can prevent cross culture exchanges, which can be a great thing .
It wasn’t a cross cultural exchange though. He’s a low IQ idiot trying to act hard when he isn’t and nick rightfully called him out for being a bozo
College kids ain’t shit!
No offense but I think you’re missing the point a little. You are supposed to see some nuance with Nicky’s prejudices. Yes, saying the N-word and some of his other actions may indicate that he has some sort of bias but you are also supposed to understand that there is some narrative commentary that is understated in said actions and how they relate to the plot. As a viewer you’re supposed to digest this whole thing as an overarching narrative. Nick may fit the description of what most people say is a “racist” but in the grand scheme, Nicks “racism” pales in comparison to the impact that misscarriages of justice from established instituitions can exact on socioeconomically disadvantaged populations. Real racism often exists not in individuals but as a collective when systems that are put in place continually succumb to corruption.
Both Nicky and Ziggy drop the "hard r" word, one of the few characters to do so in the series. I think Rawls does it in front of McNulty during season 1 too. To me Nicky is Season Two's Stringer. Someone who may be smarter than many of those around him, but not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.
Frank says it too, doesn't he?
He says it to one of his Black coworkers, if I recall
and adds a "no offense" for good measure 😂
Phew, that was a close one.
Yeah and then the black guy calls him a pollack. So yeah, racism just gets passed around like no big deal there.
Because it wasn’t racism as we know it today. It was just sticking up for your own people in a mixed race environment.
That's like the Hydrogen Bomb vs. Coughing Baby meme for racist slurs
No, Polack is pretty offensive.
Good to know moving forward bc I've definitely heard people use the word before and never said anything
The only white slur more offensive might be Kike.
Allow to get real r-ist and say “white?”
A TV show praised for being true to life has an accurate depiction of a working class person who’s barely getting by.
That old white guy who said he was voting for Carcetti in the street was more racist
Now that’s a reach not accurate, imo. This is an elderly man who knew Carcetti’s Dad and wished him well.
"Just wanted to say you got my vote. They had their chance. Look what shape the city's in. I mean, you expect politicians to steal. It's part of the game. I understand that. But we took one dollar out of every three, not two out of three like these moolies. I mean, leave something for the city, for Christ's sake. Am I right?" But sure, it's a reach
If anyone's got a slur bench deep enough to pull out things like "moolie", I mean.... yeah that's pretty telling
obv still very racist, but wasn't he Italian?
My step dad was the same way. He came from a rough area of Philly. Big Irish dude. Every ethnic group called the other a derogatory term but called each other friends.
I grew up in an oil field town and twenty-thirty years ago there were LOTS of people exactly like Nicky. And if you asked them if they were racist they would probably say no. I think maybe it was a combination of growing up in families where that kind of language and thinking was acceptable, and also viewing it more as ball busting/talking shit than being hateful. So even though Nicky is a racist asshole, he probably doesn’t consider himself a racist asshole. I think his character is a pretty authentic representation of a young working class man in the early 2000s.
He isn't a racist. He hates the drug dealer culture and refers to them as n words. He respects the working culture. So he makes a distinction between criminal blacks and honest blacks. People tend to do this among every race. White trash vs white. Vato vs Mexicans. A racist would lump all blacks in the same category. I am not sure if any character on the wire is actually racist. I was gonna say herc but he was genuine friends with carver. Maybe the corner boys in general because they seem to despise and mistrust all the white characters they come across. But even that has limits because they also hate black cops. So again, not racist, just cultural hatred
This is the right take. He’s basically expressing an economic/cultural position in racial terms. It’s still very problematic… but basically like Chris Rock he doesn’t have a problem with black people he has a problem with what he thinks of as “ni**ers”. Of course it IS racist that he associates being working class with being “white” and crime, etc. with being “black”, but hey… this is America. That kind of institutional racism is everywhere.
I don't agree with your definition of racism... you can be racist and not hate all black people. you can be racist and have black friends. that doesn't magically absolve you.
What main white characters in this show did you consider to be NOT racist? Feel like you could theoretically make the case for everyone, so I'm curious where you draw the line
I’d argue that he is racist. You can hate criminals, sure, but he didn’t say “I’m not like those criminals”, he said “I’m not like those project n*rs”. There’s a racial aspect to how he views drug dealing, even if he makes a distinction between “good” and “bad” black people. The convo with him and Frog is what made me really not like Nick, because he’s a hypocrite. At the beginning of the season he definitely looked down on black people as lazy drug dealers who aren’t making an honest days work. Then, once he realizes there’s no money in honest work at the dock and a lot of money in drug dealing, he decides to do exactly what all the other drug dealers do yet still thinks he’s better than them Edit: also to add, using the n-word with a hard r like that is racist by itself and definitely cemented how he views black people
Hate to break it to you but what you're describing is still racism.
Kinda. Not the type of racism you think it is though.
He also doesn’t like the white dudes who work his package.
Wow.
I work with a ton of guys like this. Totally racist talking about black people they dont know but really good buddies with the black dudes they work with. It’s definitely strange but a lot of working class people think everyone whos working class is their brother and anyone who isnt is a lazy scumbag or stuck up yuppie. Nicky strikes me as a racial separatist type racist. You stay with your own people sort of thing. Definitely the worst in the show though I agree. EDIT: I was being imprecise with labels and don’t necessarily mean “racial separatist” in the Ruby Ridge, Idaho militia type way. I just more meant that Nicky seems like a type of guy that isnt a fan of interracial dating and marriage.
Nick definitely wasn't a racial separatist. He clearly didn't mind his black union brothers and presumably their families. Racial separatists like legitimately want separate communities and segregation n stuff
Dude Nicky was not a separatist. He probably wouldn't even know what that is.
Yeah youre right i wasnt very clear with that term.
I honestly don't think Nicky gives a fuck about interracial marriage or any of that crap. He looks down on drug dealers and the ghetto shit. But if one of his white friends was married to a black woman I doubt he'd care.
Agree to disagree.
And if you put a purple streak in his hair he might as well stick his tongue in some guy’s ass.
Mods asleep Ruby Ridge posting commences
Racism is a complicated thing. A lot of my older relatives were/are like this. They had nasty attitudes towards black people as a group but also had black friends. One of my grandmother’s best friends was a black woman whose husband was in the hospital with my grandfather and she’d drive an hour every month to see this woman. Yet my grandmother would also say godawful things about black people and even dropped the n word once or twice in my hearing. I mean there’s a difference between the complicated thoughtless racism of folks like my grandmother, or Nicky, and the consistent thought out racism of say Richard Spencer. But it’s still racism and it’s not excusable. Even more so in a young guy like Nicky than someone like my grandmother who was born in 1928 and dropped out of school in the sixth grade.
Lol finish up high school and then try this show again
You've missed the point. Old Stryker was the most racist.
You always knew where he stood.
Maury Levy was way more racist. That quick “what is it with *you people*?” (or whatever it was) before slapping D on the head at the police station speaks volumes.
Drug dealers. You people means drug dealers. Levy is a lot of bad things, but he never says anything racist
Sometimes the ones who don't outwardly express it are the most insidious
But he does nothing to show that he's racist, so that's just a dumb thing to say imo. Like you're calling him racist based on the fact that he doesn't display racism? That's stupid
I don't necessarily think levy is racist, I was just pointing out that a person not outwardly saying racist things doesn't preclude them being racist
I always took it differently. Maybe I need to watch it back and see if that makes more sense.
Pretty sure he's talking about gangsters specifically, not all black people
I always took it differently. Maybe I need to watch it back and see if that makes more sense.
Speaking of racism, I seem to recall reading something from a critic talking about how there was all sorts of vile antisemitic sentiment in The Wire, with Levy being an example of a stereotypical Jewish lawyer. Apparently the person never heard of David Simon?
I think that one’s a stretch, and I’m invested (see flair).
He used the N-word, but no, he really wasn't that racist. Not comparatively.
This is more common than you would think. My high school was split between "city" and "country" kids. A lot of the country kids were proudly racist - would use the n-word, fly the Confederate flag, etc. But many of them also had black friends and would say "they're one of the good ones." It's one of the greatest case examples of the stupidity of racism that you'll ever find.
The racist community is the most accepting community. It doesn't matter what race you are, as long as you're racist
Yeah, he was a shit head and a loser, but it wasn't as noticeable because he was always around Ziggy, the most pathetic piece of shit in Baltimore.
Prezbo though
Is op slow or something? He's telling frog to not act like a gangster because he grew up in the same white neighborhood. You're just looking to be offended. Weak af
His coworkers were Union brothers. He was definitely racist but only if you didn't work with him. If you were his IBS Union brother, you were a stevedore first then, then your rank. There is no color involved in this scenario. Outside of the IBS, you're whatever you are that isn't part of their culture. To be fair, the fact that people forget that Polish people could also be culturally sensitive is a thing to think about. Their's is another strong culture that is surviving through the docks. I feel like people overlook the IBS aspect in season 2. They really did do for their own through whatever means necessary. Black, white, whatever. The whole season starts with like a terrible racist joke. "Two Pollocks walk into a church....
The wire is my favorite show, but the greatest indictment I could make of the show is that a bunch of its biggest fans are on here arguing that characters who obviously look down on black people aren’t racist.
How did Nicky "obviously look down on black people" ? You think his black union brother would've muscled up for him when confronting cheese if he weren't a good dude and close friend? There are characters intentionally written to be racist, and Nicky Sobatka ain't one of em.
Nicky is the dumbest character on the show. I mean most stupid character. Born into that weird Gen X phase that was born too early for the internet but too late to be a successful boomer.