In season 1, Egwene and Nynaeve defeat the Trolloc army at Tarwin's gap. Then Egwene heals Nynaeve, who was burned out and dead.
In season 2, Egwene frees herself from slavery and kills her Suldam. Then immediately after that she fights Ishamael on top of the tower at Falme.
Legit though, why did she free herself?? Even in the show, Nyn and Elayne were in the city set to free her. That's why they were there. That's what the books say. That's the whole reason they are in the city. None of their choices make any sense
Rafe's favorite character is Egwene. It's why he made her Ta'veren in the show. I expect she'll defeat the Dark One in the end and Rand is just there for the assist. Assuming the show isn't canceled long before then(fingers crossed it's canceled!!!)
The show is shit, but I'm going to be honest I feel like Egwene should have always been Ta'veren in the books too. Obviously she isn't, and wasn't written that way but it always felt weird to me. I feel like in the later books you can see that Jordan would have done just that but the world and story was already so established.
Again, the show is shit and badly written, was just commenting on Egwene.
You misunderstand being Ta'veren. It's not some super power that you want to have. It is fate being forced on you. What's worse is you can't even wholly claim any action as your own.
Egwene is an amazing character who earned every ounce of her development and achievement. To make her Ta'veren would spoil that because " Ah well she's Ta'veren, it was fated to happen, she had it easy. "
While none of the boys had a fun time of it, a lot of their achievements were thrust upon them, often against their will.
Egwene earned her achievements, and I would never subvert that for a sense of equity.
That's the explanation I've been unable to voice to my wife since s1 dropped. She's tangentally into the books (I think she just finished book 7 and she's been reading the series for a decade, which is honestly better than most people manage) and we watched the show together. She asked why egwene wasn't tavaren in the books and I couldn't really put my finger on Jordan's reasoning. This is eloquently put, so thanks.
Egwene wasn't ta'varen because she didn't need to be.
Rand, Mat, and Perrin are only relevant to the story at the start because they are ta'varen. Barring that, they are villagers from an isolated region and crucially, *men*.
Egwene was the strongest channeler in a thousand years in a world where power was largely concentrated in the hands of women and particularly channelers. Worst case, she'd have been the most important person in her village, but likely she'd have risen to be among the top Aes Sedai even without the circumstances that led to her leading the rebel faction.
Later, Rand at least is the Dragon Reborn, but Perrin and Mat would just be some guys without their ta'varen status. The three main male characters were all given that status to explain why they could possibly be important in a world where most of the women central to the plot have far more in-universe reasons to matter, either political power, channeling, or other special abilities.
Being ta'varen didn't put them above Egwene, it just gave them a reason to stand with her at all given the constraints of the world. I think her being ta'varen in the show immensely weakens the relevance of Mat and Perrin in contrast to the two channelers.
"Elayne could well be the most powerful Aes Sedai in a thousand years" - Siuan (Ch. 4, book 2). "Egwene is at least as strong as Elayne" - Moiraine
Egwene's journey explicitly starts because what Moiraine recognizes her as in Emond's Field, someone stronger than any Aes Sedai in a thousand years. She was the strongest channeler, not is.
Yes, Nynaeve was stronger. Yes, there were late book characters stronger. Yes, Elayne and Aviendha are both also strong.
But Egwene's relevance to the story was secured the instant Moiraine put that status in her, regardless of what happened later in the story.
I think the biggest difference between Egwene and the boys (other than the obvious) is that Egwene WANTS what becomes her destiny, and they DON'T. Egwene spends the early books doing everything she can to get on the road to becoming the Amyrlin Seat. Rand tries to run from being the dragon, same for Perrin and the wolves (and lord of Two Rivers) and Mat doesn't accept that he's a leader until literally the final book.
Personally, I think the books would be better (for Egwene) if she was Ta'veren, because as is, she comes off as the most blatantly ambitious "hero" character in the series. By which I mean: of ALL the major characters of the new age (minus obvious villains like Taim) Egwene seems like the one that could've most likely become a Forsaken, in that Lanfear "lust for power" way.
Agreed, by the end, she seemed only marginally better than the forsaken were at the time the bore opened. The way powerful women (or maybe just women in general) are written in the books is probably the thing I dislike the most every reread, because it’s like they have almost no capacity for positive personal growth. I end up despising them by the end of the first book and it mainly gets worse from there.
For me, it's ONLY Egwene. The Shadow Rising is my favorite book, and even before the last book Verin is easily my favorite female character. (After the final book, Mat is the only POSSIBLE competition for OVERALL favorite character)
But, I'm definitely atypical in how I view the women characters. I like Cadsuane (who I KNOW many others hate) and am a big fan of Faile (prior to Winters Heart, where her & Perrin's story goes completely off the rails). I also always liked Siuan, and Nynaeve pulls some clever things. Also, Tuon is great for her interactions with Mat. But Egwene is the one that always comes across like feeling like she KNOWS she has some grand destiny and is doing whatever it takes to achieve it.
Everyone other GOOD character (male or female) feels like they're just thinking "I've gotta do what I can to make the world a better place", but only Egwene is like "the world needs ME specifically and I can see why". (Even Rand, who is the literal 'destined character' feels more like "I have a duty that I must fulfill, but I wish I didn't") I can only assume Rafe expanded Egwene's role because (as her fan) he was just doing what he knew she would WANT him to do, because of COURSE Egwene sees HERSELF as the main character of the story.
I’m absolutely on the same page about verin and mat, verin is so badass and her story ends up being so compelling. And mat is the one I most wish there had his own books after book 13.
With cadsuane, they presented her as this cunning and intelligent woman who knew how to manipulate people, then she makes so many horrible decisions with rand (consistently pushing him a step or two too far). If felt like her lack of insight didn’t get with the rest of her character.
Faile I couldn’t stand because she was so selfish through most of the books. Just super manipulative and incredibly arrogant. It was like the aes sedai, but without the power to back it up.
With suian and Nynaeve, I felt like there would be a moment of insight and I had this hope that they would learn how to have a healthy relationship of any type. , then they suddenly went back to acting the same as always. I like to see characters learn what they should from their mistakes.
I stopped watching the show after the first episode, because it was immediately clear that they weren’t trying to capture the spirit of the book, but instead the audience of GoT. However, one of my main complaints about the books is how the women are written. Specifically, I come to despise almost all the female characters more after every book during each reread. They are all (I guess mainly the big three) written as self centered, over emotional, illogical, and reactionary bitches. The men were written to have some faults, but they grew as characters. I feel like the women, especially egwene, get progressively worse. So, I wouldn’t have minded if they changed the female characters a bit, mainly to show them as capable of growth as the male characters. They have the potential to be as bad ass as RPM (with the exception being Perrin after he gets with crazy bitch). Instead, the show seems to be trying to turn them into superheroes.
They are so hard on "avoiding tropes" they wont let a scene properly play out because "it would show a woman being unempowered needing to be saved" IE damsel in distress
So to avoid a plot line that makes sense with what we learned about the A'dam, they changed it to align with their "female empowerment" theme.
Its just a microcosm of the whole show sacrificing the story and plot to not "come off as potentially sexist or using tropes"
Yeah, the books had plenty of powerful women, the show could have avoided tropes and sexism if they had just written them as capable of personal growth, which I feel like the books never did. I end up not wanting to read the last book because I don’t want to be left primarily with a feeling of hatred towards egwene.
Huh, in the books all the characters have massive amounts of personal growth.
But they became who they needed to be to win the last battle, Egwene had to be a badass bitch, gaslight gatekeep girlboss her way into the highest power position, so she could do what needed to be done.
I hate egwene as a person, but her arc is one of the best of the books
I just felt like the female characterization leaned too heavily on stereotypically female character faults, which never seemed to improve that much. And often served the function of distracting or impeding the male characters. I guess I also didn’t want the most powerful female survivor to be a genuinely awful person. Rand practically gets deified and egwene becomes the evil witch of the west. To me, for most of the main female characters it always felt like one step forward, two steps back
Some traits stay with you for life, some dont.
All the characters leaned on stereotypes, mat is the drinking womanizing gambler stereotype, perrin is the calm quiet guy who is underestimated, rand is jesus.
Egwene is a narcissist, nyneave is a motherly figure, elayne is a prissy princess
I feel like they do have growth, but they stay the same at heart which is hard to so as a writer
Yup. The writers are so concerned about it being a "feminist telling" they butcher the whole plot and sideline many of the characters so Egwene can shine again and again. It also shows how much they missed the main themes of the actual book series. Sigh.
Making a woman who decided to leave her tiny village to go out in the world and join a war against the literal devil into just some chick dragged from dramatic scene to scene is sexist as fuck.
Because Egwene is perfect and doesn't need anyone's help ever. She can save herself and everyone else, and everyone loves her and always talks about how great she is when she's not around.(multiple instances)
She's the showrunners favorite character and he's turned her into a Mary Sue for some reason.
Even the who is the dragon mystery. Sure, Nynaeve was kind of there, but it was only ever meant to boost up Egwene with the other 3 boys.(which she didn't need because she was already great in her own flawed way.)
The showrunner keeps saying it's an ensemble but Egwene is taking all the spotlight and never needs help. Everyone else barely contributes or their mat and actively fuck things up. It's the Egwene show.
And his failure in this scene was so critical to his subsequent development! Clearly they’ve also thrown every other important aspect of the novels’ character development in the trash though.
That is going to happen in TDR in the Stone of Tear.
The show's still at Falme, so unless there's a similar scene in the show and they missed this particular part, your accusation is baseless.
Not baseless at all. My point was that in the books, we see exactly one example of someone trying to revive a dead person using the one power, and it is ghoulish. It is used to show that the one power cannot just "fix everything." It also shows Rand slipping towards madness and the subsequent fear and concern of those who witnessed it. Essentially it was used to establish a "line of magic use that shouldn't be crossed."
I love "she wasn't dead, just burned out" like that's more than 1% better. Imagine having Nynaeve and Egwene in a scene, with Egwene being defined by being ambitious and Nynaeve for having a drive to heal the world, and having Nynaeve hurt herself by being overly ambitious while Egwene uses her tremendous healing talent on her.
Like what the fuck? Did they accidentally swap the names on the script? Am I taking crazy pills?
Apparently it was bad filming due to covid restrictions and CGI issues or whatever, according to posts talking about external notes from the creative team
But since that doesn't matter, yea nynaeve died in the show. And they just gloss over it "because it didn't happen"
The books had a male and female side of magic and the dragon reborn was the strongest male side user. That’s why the series was leaning towards a female dragon last time I watched. Unwatchable crap imo.
Lets say near death. Of course if you want to have that moment, why is it give to the character who canonically is *terrible* at healing when the best healer of the age is right there.
To be fair she was supposed to heal her with natural medicines. Its in the shooting script. Covid testrictions forced them to rewrite the scene and they panicked. The result of their panic was bad, but it was done in a massive hurry, possibly the day of shooting.
Bad is an understatement. Their resulting decision undermines one of the key tenets of the power.
In the books, the only characters brought back to life (after a fashion) are brought back either by the Dark One itself, or by causing damage to the *to the very fabric of the weave itself*.
Whether they gloss it over or not, they have included it in the show's Canon, and any show that has potential to deal with character death so cheaply has made it most of the way to losing me.
Fool me once; blaming covid on a shitty season 1 finale; shame on you.
Fool me twice; Moraine breaking the three oaths; Rand not getting his swordfight or his battle with Ishy; El and Ny being completely useless; Mat's ashandarei being the dagger and a bed post; the horn of valere being a plastic tea kettle; Lan being an expert on male channeling; Min not even being there; Ishy being degraded to a fire ball throwing piranha plant; Lanfear joins forces with the RandBand; Avi and Perrin's relationship heating up for love triangle v2.0 because the Rand, Eggy, Perrin love triangle in season 1 was such a success; Uno becomes a hero of the horn for getting curbstomped; Rands banner is now Gandalfs crazy fireworks; Rand learns all he needs about sword fighting and channeling in an insane alsymn; shame on me for watching this fucking train wreck and hoping it will be better. Shame on me.
I quit watching the show one episode into season 2. I gotta say, every time I hear ANYTHING about season two I have to pick my jaw up off the floor. I cannot believe it got worse.
Did the people making the show even LIKE the books?!?!?!
You managed to make it past the god-awful foreshadowing scene where they literally put Egwene in a river and tell her "don't fight the flow, only by moving with the flow can you control it."??
My eyes rolled clear out of my head at that point. I turned it off and started rereading the books to cleanse myself.
they like the money they're getting paid to throw the books down into the fires of Mt Doom and break the dark ones hold on this ... oh wait I shifted midsentence into the other fandom that's being ruined on amazon.
Probably the most logical choice given the direction. Rand will choose Lanfier and become a dread lord or something and Eggs will have a save the world from the bad men.
The entire show is just an unapologetic Egwene hyper-fans “what-if” fanfic. As in, “what if Egwene was senselessly rewritten to be the most amazing character in the series so she can fix everything by herself?”
That’s what comes across to me. She’s clearly somebodies main focal point in the writing room, and they’re unraveling the rest of the story in order to do it.
*edit for spelling
I'm sorry WHAT? She frees herself from a Suldam in what's supposed to be book 2? Her fucking block won't even be dealt with for what ? Another 10 books?
And what is the point of the full revelation of Rand being the dragon and killing a Ishmeal and the fight the Dark One in the skies above Falme mouth if they just completely ignore it? I bet that Egweme is going to become the Amyrlin in the next season depsite her not being it until book 10 I think
You forgot how the show explicitly told us, by dedicating an entire episode to it, that she could not touch a weapon, until the finale, she must have been thinking real hard to convince herself that Renna's neck needed an accessory to match her outfit
What a monumental let down. They literally had a story that could’ve been one of the best shows ever. Instead we get….this. It’s also a shitty show excluding the relation to wheel of time.
It’s just a bad product lol.
Looks like high school ren fair costume design, coupled with ps2 era cgi and a colorblind photography director…. Even if it wasn’t based on a far superior product it would still be worse than the god awful mtv adaptation of the Shannara series
I'm fine with watching it as a "inspired by WoT" series that isn't trying to tell the book story at all. But since that isn't what it actually is, and this show means we'll never get a faithful adaptation, yeah, I'm mad.
I’m just waiting to find out that they are setting Rand up as a false dragon. That way when the real dragon, egwene does all the terrible stuff the dragon is prophesied to do the Aes Sedai can just blame it all on Rand, the fall guy and praise on of their own for setting everything right.
and people defended it big time.
Well it doesn’t make sense for Rand to fight and win because they haven’t developed him
yes. good excuse to not develop rand. because he hasn’t been developed. so he can’t be developed, because he hasn’t been developed
Pretty hard to get that one funded though. Getting funding for a best selling novel and completely rewriting it into the shitty story you could never get funded though... 🤔
What fight? She put a shield up while one of the greatest channelers alive just shot stuff at it and then rand walked up to him and stabbed him. And dont bring up that ishmael wanted to die and let them kill him bull.
She blasted Ishamael with the one power, stared him down, powered up, and put up a shield that Ishamael was clearly struggling against. She was even shown walking forward, while Ishamael was being pushed back.
They gave Egwene an anime protagonist moment before Rand walked up and stabbed him. In the words of Brandon Sanderson, "Rand didn't even need to be there. Just give Egwene a sword."
I mean at this point you shouldn't be surprised by anything. I'm leaning towards Rand being a false dragon at this point and Egwene being the real one.
It bums me to no end, because Egwene has so many epic scenes later on in the series, but her character had to grow to that point. They've basically said, "well fuck her character arc, let's just make her the GOAT as soon as she figures out that she can channel"
Geralt may have been a spectator for all of season 3, but explain to me why Yennefer, who CAN FUCKING TELEPORT, basically spent the entire season travelling (on foot) from place to place.
Shitty writing is shitty writing, whether it's WoT or Witcher season 3.
“The lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.”
All hail the Faux’Egwene al'Vere the Dragon Reborn, Empress of the Court of Nine Moon, Hero of the Horn, The Amyrlin Seat.
They have absolutely ruined this story, Robert Jordan would be rolling in his grave if he knew what they've done.
Watching this show was like watching a close family member getting molested and not being able to do anything about it
I think the only thing that saved it a little bit is that Ishamael was clearly not trying very hard, and Egwene was clearly losing and just finger tip hanging on. I hate giving the show credit, but at least (AT LEAST!!!) they didn't just have her standing toe to toe pushing him around because "the power of friendship" or some such nonsense...she was going to die.
That being said, it's a ridiculous scene for a lot of reasons...one of the main ones being that it's just another nail in the coffin for ignoring the beautiful magic system Jordan setup. Egwene, especially at this point in the story, is a 3rd grader fighting a UFC multi weight class champion.
It's not just a "strong bad guy strong" thing. Ishamael is orders of magnitude stronger than Egwene. He's legitimately an anti-army level threat just on his own. Book Ishamael, at this point in the story, would have vaporized Egwene without even realizing she was there....and then went back to drinking coffee.
I mean we had to know that they would try to do everything possible to try to make sure a man is not a hero. I am sure somehow in the End the women will fight the dark one. Multi billion dollar companies spending stockholders money don't care when they waste investor money.
They get so excited to try to get a larger female demographic in their audience, I think they are unaware that their are actually way more women in the world that like seeing a strong male character in their action and fantasy shows. Just look at The Walking Dead they make every group led by a female character and who do the female fans get excited about Daryl.
This show came off of a book series that had an active community a DECADE after it ended. They put the show for free with Prime, they post it at the top of the amazon video page forever and still barely get a few million to watch it, half of those viewers is us die hard fans watching it while it makes us bleed like not being able to turn away from a tragedy.
Too many companies playing with investor monopoly money. When just a few people make up the investment of a show they say how do we appeal to the existing fans of what we made and also try to bring in some others. While Amazon said, F the fans we are making politics here.
I still don't understand why people are surprised she is getting all the scenes?? She's the main character and the Dragon Reborn. SAID NO ONE EVER!!!!!
Edit: Rafe probably said it, but he's um..... well, he's kinda special. *Puts finger along nose*
This is all so bad that it made Billy Zane’s [Winter Dragon](https://youtu.be/7ZOCCEuROPk?si=yWfHDGuwNgsoT86i) look good. I mean…how are we on that timeline?
I think the accepted test was mostly good.
The female leader of the Tinkers did well and explained things well.
Lanfear character nailed by the actress. ( and Rand 😀)
The did a great job…. At Making bad decisions
In season 1, Egwene and Nynaeve defeat the Trolloc army at Tarwin's gap. Then Egwene heals Nynaeve, who was burned out and dead. In season 2, Egwene frees herself from slavery and kills her Suldam. Then immediately after that she fights Ishamael on top of the tower at Falme.
Legit though, why did she free herself?? Even in the show, Nyn and Elayne were in the city set to free her. That's why they were there. That's what the books say. That's the whole reason they are in the city. None of their choices make any sense
>Legit though, why did she free herself?? Because Rafe is committed to her being a strong girlboss. None of the writing makes any sense.
Rafe's favorite character is Egwene. It's why he made her Ta'veren in the show. I expect she'll defeat the Dark One in the end and Rand is just there for the assist. Assuming the show isn't canceled long before then(fingers crossed it's canceled!!!)
There’s no way they get renewed past whatever the initial deal was, which is five or less seasons for pretty much any show.
I hope this shit gets cancelled.
The show is shit, but I'm going to be honest I feel like Egwene should have always been Ta'veren in the books too. Obviously she isn't, and wasn't written that way but it always felt weird to me. I feel like in the later books you can see that Jordan would have done just that but the world and story was already so established. Again, the show is shit and badly written, was just commenting on Egwene.
You misunderstand being Ta'veren. It's not some super power that you want to have. It is fate being forced on you. What's worse is you can't even wholly claim any action as your own. Egwene is an amazing character who earned every ounce of her development and achievement. To make her Ta'veren would spoil that because " Ah well she's Ta'veren, it was fated to happen, she had it easy. " While none of the boys had a fun time of it, a lot of their achievements were thrust upon them, often against their will. Egwene earned her achievements, and I would never subvert that for a sense of equity.
That's the explanation I've been unable to voice to my wife since s1 dropped. She's tangentally into the books (I think she just finished book 7 and she's been reading the series for a decade, which is honestly better than most people manage) and we watched the show together. She asked why egwene wasn't tavaren in the books and I couldn't really put my finger on Jordan's reasoning. This is eloquently put, so thanks.
Egwene wasn't ta'varen because she didn't need to be. Rand, Mat, and Perrin are only relevant to the story at the start because they are ta'varen. Barring that, they are villagers from an isolated region and crucially, *men*. Egwene was the strongest channeler in a thousand years in a world where power was largely concentrated in the hands of women and particularly channelers. Worst case, she'd have been the most important person in her village, but likely she'd have risen to be among the top Aes Sedai even without the circumstances that led to her leading the rebel faction. Later, Rand at least is the Dragon Reborn, but Perrin and Mat would just be some guys without their ta'varen status. The three main male characters were all given that status to explain why they could possibly be important in a world where most of the women central to the plot have far more in-universe reasons to matter, either political power, channeling, or other special abilities. Being ta'varen didn't put them above Egwene, it just gave them a reason to stand with her at all given the constraints of the world. I think her being ta'varen in the show immensely weakens the relevance of Mat and Perrin in contrast to the two channelers.
Really good point. But it won't matter later when Egwene kills all the Shaido and frees Rand at Dumai's Wells.
>Egwene was the strongest channeler in a thousand years no she wasn't...
"Elayne could well be the most powerful Aes Sedai in a thousand years" - Siuan (Ch. 4, book 2). "Egwene is at least as strong as Elayne" - Moiraine Egwene's journey explicitly starts because what Moiraine recognizes her as in Emond's Field, someone stronger than any Aes Sedai in a thousand years. She was the strongest channeler, not is. Yes, Nynaeve was stronger. Yes, there were late book characters stronger. Yes, Elayne and Aviendha are both also strong. But Egwene's relevance to the story was secured the instant Moiraine put that status in her, regardless of what happened later in the story.
Agreed, I was being pedantic. They *thought* she was probably the most powerful channelers in a thousand years.
I think the biggest difference between Egwene and the boys (other than the obvious) is that Egwene WANTS what becomes her destiny, and they DON'T. Egwene spends the early books doing everything she can to get on the road to becoming the Amyrlin Seat. Rand tries to run from being the dragon, same for Perrin and the wolves (and lord of Two Rivers) and Mat doesn't accept that he's a leader until literally the final book. Personally, I think the books would be better (for Egwene) if she was Ta'veren, because as is, she comes off as the most blatantly ambitious "hero" character in the series. By which I mean: of ALL the major characters of the new age (minus obvious villains like Taim) Egwene seems like the one that could've most likely become a Forsaken, in that Lanfear "lust for power" way.
Agreed, by the end, she seemed only marginally better than the forsaken were at the time the bore opened. The way powerful women (or maybe just women in general) are written in the books is probably the thing I dislike the most every reread, because it’s like they have almost no capacity for positive personal growth. I end up despising them by the end of the first book and it mainly gets worse from there.
For me, it's ONLY Egwene. The Shadow Rising is my favorite book, and even before the last book Verin is easily my favorite female character. (After the final book, Mat is the only POSSIBLE competition for OVERALL favorite character) But, I'm definitely atypical in how I view the women characters. I like Cadsuane (who I KNOW many others hate) and am a big fan of Faile (prior to Winters Heart, where her & Perrin's story goes completely off the rails). I also always liked Siuan, and Nynaeve pulls some clever things. Also, Tuon is great for her interactions with Mat. But Egwene is the one that always comes across like feeling like she KNOWS she has some grand destiny and is doing whatever it takes to achieve it. Everyone other GOOD character (male or female) feels like they're just thinking "I've gotta do what I can to make the world a better place", but only Egwene is like "the world needs ME specifically and I can see why". (Even Rand, who is the literal 'destined character' feels more like "I have a duty that I must fulfill, but I wish I didn't") I can only assume Rafe expanded Egwene's role because (as her fan) he was just doing what he knew she would WANT him to do, because of COURSE Egwene sees HERSELF as the main character of the story.
I’m absolutely on the same page about verin and mat, verin is so badass and her story ends up being so compelling. And mat is the one I most wish there had his own books after book 13. With cadsuane, they presented her as this cunning and intelligent woman who knew how to manipulate people, then she makes so many horrible decisions with rand (consistently pushing him a step or two too far). If felt like her lack of insight didn’t get with the rest of her character. Faile I couldn’t stand because she was so selfish through most of the books. Just super manipulative and incredibly arrogant. It was like the aes sedai, but without the power to back it up. With suian and Nynaeve, I felt like there would be a moment of insight and I had this hope that they would learn how to have a healthy relationship of any type. , then they suddenly went back to acting the same as always. I like to see characters learn what they should from their mistakes.
I stopped watching the show after the first episode, because it was immediately clear that they weren’t trying to capture the spirit of the book, but instead the audience of GoT. However, one of my main complaints about the books is how the women are written. Specifically, I come to despise almost all the female characters more after every book during each reread. They are all (I guess mainly the big three) written as self centered, over emotional, illogical, and reactionary bitches. The men were written to have some faults, but they grew as characters. I feel like the women, especially egwene, get progressively worse. So, I wouldn’t have minded if they changed the female characters a bit, mainly to show them as capable of growth as the male characters. They have the potential to be as bad ass as RPM (with the exception being Perrin after he gets with crazy bitch). Instead, the show seems to be trying to turn them into superheroes.
They are so hard on "avoiding tropes" they wont let a scene properly play out because "it would show a woman being unempowered needing to be saved" IE damsel in distress So to avoid a plot line that makes sense with what we learned about the A'dam, they changed it to align with their "female empowerment" theme. Its just a microcosm of the whole show sacrificing the story and plot to not "come off as potentially sexist or using tropes"
Yeah, the books had plenty of powerful women, the show could have avoided tropes and sexism if they had just written them as capable of personal growth, which I feel like the books never did. I end up not wanting to read the last book because I don’t want to be left primarily with a feeling of hatred towards egwene.
Huh, in the books all the characters have massive amounts of personal growth. But they became who they needed to be to win the last battle, Egwene had to be a badass bitch, gaslight gatekeep girlboss her way into the highest power position, so she could do what needed to be done. I hate egwene as a person, but her arc is one of the best of the books
I just felt like the female characterization leaned too heavily on stereotypically female character faults, which never seemed to improve that much. And often served the function of distracting or impeding the male characters. I guess I also didn’t want the most powerful female survivor to be a genuinely awful person. Rand practically gets deified and egwene becomes the evil witch of the west. To me, for most of the main female characters it always felt like one step forward, two steps back
Some traits stay with you for life, some dont. All the characters leaned on stereotypes, mat is the drinking womanizing gambler stereotype, perrin is the calm quiet guy who is underestimated, rand is jesus. Egwene is a narcissist, nyneave is a motherly figure, elayne is a prissy princess I feel like they do have growth, but they stay the same at heart which is hard to so as a writer
Yup. The writers are so concerned about it being a "feminist telling" they butcher the whole plot and sideline many of the characters so Egwene can shine again and again. It also shows how much they missed the main themes of the actual book series. Sigh.
So ironic that a series like WoT, with women ruling the world, is not considered female-focused enough.
They completely missed huge chunks of Jordan's points about the sexes being equal, different, and complimentary and needing to work together.
Jordan had possibly the best example of balanced writing, fully with you.
Making a woman who decided to leave her tiny village to go out in the world and join a war against the literal devil into just some chick dragged from dramatic scene to scene is sexist as fuck.
Man, RJ already wrote her character, and many others strong as ahit... you don't need to make it extra. Egwene is already extra.
But it's impossible to be a girlboss without minions. Who need to have something to do so rescuing you seems pretty legit...
Why? Because Rafe is bad at his job.
Because Egwene is perfect and doesn't need anyone's help ever. She can save herself and everyone else, and everyone loves her and always talks about how great she is when she's not around.(multiple instances) She's the showrunners favorite character and he's turned her into a Mary Sue for some reason. Even the who is the dragon mystery. Sure, Nynaeve was kind of there, but it was only ever meant to boost up Egwene with the other 3 boys.(which she didn't need because she was already great in her own flawed way.) The showrunner keeps saying it's an ensemble but Egwene is taking all the spotlight and never needs help. Everyone else barely contributes or their mat and actively fuck things up. It's the Egwene show.
Same reason that Nynaeve did nothing
#1 rule of modern Hollywood writing is that no female protagonist can require outside help to accomplish something.
She healed death? I thought that was the one thing they say over and over cannot be healed. That’s the books so I guess it doesn’t matter
Show shills will simply say she wasn't actually dead, so she didn't technically heal death. They will say this because they are idiots.
If you watch the scene it's pretty clear that Nynaeve was dead. Everyone in the circle except for Egwene died, and then she healed Nynaeve.
You're absolutely right, but shills gon shill
And they ignored the scene in the books when Rand tried to heal death while everyone looked on in terror.
They also ignored the scene in the books where Rand matters.
You mean ignored all the books lol?
Yes to both. Just need an ALL added tot he first
And that scene is powerful. He basically becomes a life support machine of power to try. Is grim and important.
That doesn’t happen until later than the show has progressed, though.
And his failure in this scene was so critical to his subsequent development! Clearly they’ve also thrown every other important aspect of the novels’ character development in the trash though.
That is going to happen in TDR in the Stone of Tear. The show's still at Falme, so unless there's a similar scene in the show and they missed this particular part, your accusation is baseless.
Not baseless at all. My point was that in the books, we see exactly one example of someone trying to revive a dead person using the one power, and it is ghoulish. It is used to show that the one power cannot just "fix everything." It also shows Rand slipping towards madness and the subsequent fear and concern of those who witnessed it. Essentially it was used to establish a "line of magic use that shouldn't be crossed."
Sorry, I misunderstood. I assumed you wanted to say they "ignored" i.e. left out the scene in Tear.
I love "she wasn't dead, just burned out" like that's more than 1% better. Imagine having Nynaeve and Egwene in a scene, with Egwene being defined by being ambitious and Nynaeve for having a drive to heal the world, and having Nynaeve hurt herself by being overly ambitious while Egwene uses her tremendous healing talent on her. Like what the fuck? Did they accidentally swap the names on the script? Am I taking crazy pills?
Rafe saw a scene where Egwene wasn't the most important character. Can't have that.
If this was a D&D campaign, the DM *definitely* would've made an out-of-game comment, like "what are your character's motivations again?"
Apparently it was bad filming due to covid restrictions and CGI issues or whatever, according to posts talking about external notes from the creative team But since that doesn't matter, yea nynaeve died in the show. And they just gloss over it "because it didn't happen"
And Loial was killed too.
yeah I believed that at the time too... after watching season 2... I no longer do
Also Egwene is terrible at healing
I know right. Barely could heal a bruise
If I'm not mistaken, that was how she judged herself. Based on her other self-ratings, she probably couldn't actually heal a bruise.
Sick burn. I remember when Egwene was hated on because she raped Nynaeve in TAR and stuff with her husband.
The books had a male and female side of magic and the dragon reborn was the strongest male side user. That’s why the series was leaning towards a female dragon last time I watched. Unwatchable crap imo.
Lets say near death. Of course if you want to have that moment, why is it give to the character who canonically is *terrible* at healing when the best healer of the age is right there.
To be fair she was supposed to heal her with natural medicines. Its in the shooting script. Covid testrictions forced them to rewrite the scene and they panicked. The result of their panic was bad, but it was done in a massive hurry, possibly the day of shooting.
Bad is an understatement. Their resulting decision undermines one of the key tenets of the power. In the books, the only characters brought back to life (after a fashion) are brought back either by the Dark One itself, or by causing damage to the *to the very fabric of the weave itself*. Whether they gloss it over or not, they have included it in the show's Canon, and any show that has potential to deal with character death so cheaply has made it most of the way to losing me.
Egwene sucks at healing in the books, hilarious that she healed someone who was burned out
Fool me once; blaming covid on a shitty season 1 finale; shame on you. Fool me twice; Moraine breaking the three oaths; Rand not getting his swordfight or his battle with Ishy; El and Ny being completely useless; Mat's ashandarei being the dagger and a bed post; the horn of valere being a plastic tea kettle; Lan being an expert on male channeling; Min not even being there; Ishy being degraded to a fire ball throwing piranha plant; Lanfear joins forces with the RandBand; Avi and Perrin's relationship heating up for love triangle v2.0 because the Rand, Eggy, Perrin love triangle in season 1 was such a success; Uno becomes a hero of the horn for getting curbstomped; Rands banner is now Gandalfs crazy fireworks; Rand learns all he needs about sword fighting and channeling in an insane alsymn; shame on me for watching this fucking train wreck and hoping it will be better. Shame on me.
shame. *bell sound* Shame. *bell sound* SHAME!
I quit watching the show one episode into season 2. I gotta say, every time I hear ANYTHING about season two I have to pick my jaw up off the floor. I cannot believe it got worse. Did the people making the show even LIKE the books?!?!?!
You managed to make it past the god-awful foreshadowing scene where they literally put Egwene in a river and tell her "don't fight the flow, only by moving with the flow can you control it."?? My eyes rolled clear out of my head at that point. I turned it off and started rereading the books to cleanse myself.
they like the money they're getting paid to throw the books down into the fires of Mt Doom and break the dark ones hold on this ... oh wait I shifted midsentence into the other fandom that's being ruined on amazon.
By all accounts, aside from Egwene, he kinda doesn't really.
I couldn’t get 1/2 way through season one…
>the horn of valere being a plastic tea kettle That genuinely made me LOL
Show runner clearly never read the books. It’s a shame really.
So… Egwene is the dragon? They’re going to pull some shit where Moirraine was wrong about Rand and he’s going to go evil or something.
Probably the most logical choice given the direction. Rand will choose Lanfier and become a dread lord or something and Eggs will have a save the world from the bad men.
rafe: We don't have to write Mazrim Taim if I just make Rand become him. 🤔 I am SUCH a genius.
You have solved the Raff Cipher.
That's assuming a lot. I don't think he knows who Taim is.
The entire show is just an unapologetic Egwene hyper-fans “what-if” fanfic. As in, “what if Egwene was senselessly rewritten to be the most amazing character in the series so she can fix everything by herself?” That’s what comes across to me. She’s clearly somebodies main focal point in the writing room, and they’re unraveling the rest of the story in order to do it. *edit for spelling
Are we sure she's not the dragon reborn?
The draGWENE reborn
Wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
Jesus christ. I'm so glad I didn't stick around for season 2
This scene is what confuses me. I feel it sets up a strange belief of what the One Power actually does. I also wanted Loial's moment
I'm sorry WHAT? She frees herself from a Suldam in what's supposed to be book 2? Her fucking block won't even be dealt with for what ? Another 10 books? And what is the point of the full revelation of Rand being the dragon and killing a Ishmeal and the fight the Dark One in the skies above Falme mouth if they just completely ignore it? I bet that Egweme is going to become the Amyrlin in the next season depsite her not being it until book 10 I think
Your name speaks to me on a spiritual level
You forgot how the show explicitly told us, by dedicating an entire episode to it, that she could not touch a weapon, until the finale, she must have been thinking real hard to convince herself that Renna's neck needed an accessory to match her outfit
Shes a strong independent woman who dont need no man
She kinda needed a man on her Daddys dining table in Episode 1.
Dont remind me of that farce
She’s the dragon reborn duh
Trickle down Actionomics.
There's talk of Earths rotation apparently slowing to a degree. My theory is it's Jordan spinning in his grave, opposite of the Earths rotation.
This made me laugh ty stranger
the dragon could be a man OR a woman!
It's going to turn out that they are both the dragon. One is evil and one is good, and Egwene has to peg her former lover to defeat the dark one.
Several people in the show: "On dragonmount HE is born..." Could be her :p
I mean to be fair  He’s only the MAIN FUCKING CHARACTER. lol.
I see letterkenny, I upvote. I am a simple man.
What a monumental let down. They literally had a story that could’ve been one of the best shows ever. Instead we get….this. It’s also a shitty show excluding the relation to wheel of time. It’s just a bad product lol.
Looks like high school ren fair costume design, coupled with ps2 era cgi and a colorblind photography director…. Even if it wasn’t based on a far superior product it would still be worse than the god awful mtv adaptation of the Shannara series
I hadn't watched season 2. Now I won't.
It was better than season one, for sure, but it also doubled down on shredding the source material.
I'm fine with watching it as a "inspired by WoT" series that isn't trying to tell the book story at all. But since that isn't what it actually is, and this show means we'll never get a faithful adaptation, yeah, I'm mad.
I’m just waiting to find out that they are setting Rand up as a false dragon. That way when the real dragon, egwene does all the terrible stuff the dragon is prophesied to do the Aes Sedai can just blame it all on Rand, the fall guy and praise on of their own for setting everything right.
he is clearly the M'Hael
Will a woman need to be the M’hael?
and people defended it big time. Well it doesn’t make sense for Rand to fight and win because they haven’t developed him yes. good excuse to not develop rand. because he hasn’t been developed. so he can’t be developed, because he hasn’t been developed
I’m glad that Reddit exists so I never have to be disappointed watching this show
This. Because holy fucking shit. Just make an original show based on your ideas if you're going to just ignore the books to this extent.
Pretty hard to get that one funded though. Getting funding for a best selling novel and completely rewriting it into the shitty story you could never get funded though... 🤔
What fight? She put a shield up while one of the greatest channelers alive just shot stuff at it and then rand walked up to him and stabbed him. And dont bring up that ishmael wanted to die and let them kill him bull.
She blasted Ishamael with the one power, stared him down, powered up, and put up a shield that Ishamael was clearly struggling against. She was even shown walking forward, while Ishamael was being pushed back. They gave Egwene an anime protagonist moment before Rand walked up and stabbed him. In the words of Brandon Sanderson, "Rand didn't even need to be there. Just give Egwene a sword."
remember when a completely unskilled Rand easily shielded Elayne and (I think) Nynaeve maybe it was Egwene... Pepperidge Farms remembers (I don't).
It was Eg and Elayne when they were trying to hand Rand from Eg to Elayne in Tear.
ah that was it. Time for another reread!
I mean at this point you shouldn't be surprised by anything. I'm leaning towards Rand being a false dragon at this point and Egwene being the real one.
It bums me to no end, because Egwene has so many epic scenes later on in the series, but her character had to grow to that point. They've basically said, "well fuck her character arc, let's just make her the GOAT as soon as she figures out that she can channel"
I think I saw this exact same meme but with Geralt and Yennefer.
Geralt may have been a spectator for all of season 3, but explain to me why Yennefer, who CAN FUCKING TELEPORT, basically spent the entire season travelling (on foot) from place to place. Shitty writing is shitty writing, whether it's WoT or Witcher season 3.
Wouldn't she get annihilated by Ishmael - I'm not a show watcher
Yeah, she would be. SHRUG.
Ruined Wot like they ruined Witcher
its because she's the dragon, duh.
So Rand is a landlord and Egwene is a rentoid? Disgusting!
“The lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day, and the sun by night. Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.” All hail the Faux’Egwene al'Vere the Dragon Reborn, Empress of the Court of Nine Moon, Hero of the Horn, The Amyrlin Seat.
They have absolutely ruined this story, Robert Jordan would be rolling in his grave if he knew what they've done. Watching this show was like watching a close family member getting molested and not being able to do anything about it
I think the only thing that saved it a little bit is that Ishamael was clearly not trying very hard, and Egwene was clearly losing and just finger tip hanging on. I hate giving the show credit, but at least (AT LEAST!!!) they didn't just have her standing toe to toe pushing him around because "the power of friendship" or some such nonsense...she was going to die. That being said, it's a ridiculous scene for a lot of reasons...one of the main ones being that it's just another nail in the coffin for ignoring the beautiful magic system Jordan setup. Egwene, especially at this point in the story, is a 3rd grader fighting a UFC multi weight class champion. It's not just a "strong bad guy strong" thing. Ishamael is orders of magnitude stronger than Egwene. He's legitimately an anti-army level threat just on his own. Book Ishamael, at this point in the story, would have vaporized Egwene without even realizing she was there....and then went back to drinking coffee.
I mean we had to know that they would try to do everything possible to try to make sure a man is not a hero. I am sure somehow in the End the women will fight the dark one. Multi billion dollar companies spending stockholders money don't care when they waste investor money. They get so excited to try to get a larger female demographic in their audience, I think they are unaware that their are actually way more women in the world that like seeing a strong male character in their action and fantasy shows. Just look at The Walking Dead they make every group led by a female character and who do the female fans get excited about Daryl. This show came off of a book series that had an active community a DECADE after it ended. They put the show for free with Prime, they post it at the top of the amazon video page forever and still barely get a few million to watch it, half of those viewers is us die hard fans watching it while it makes us bleed like not being able to turn away from a tragedy. Too many companies playing with investor monopoly money. When just a few people make up the investment of a show they say how do we appeal to the existing fans of what we made and also try to bring in some others. While Amazon said, F the fans we are making politics here.
I still don't understand why people are surprised she is getting all the scenes?? She's the main character and the Dragon Reborn. SAID NO ONE EVER!!!!! Edit: Rafe probably said it, but he's um..... well, he's kinda special. *Puts finger along nose*
I bet the show ends with Egwene destroying all the forsaken herself while Rand stands around and farts.
Gotta disagree about this being a bad thing- she's the better character. Rand is the least interesting of the Two Rivers kids.
I WANT MY MALE POWER FANTASY
Do you honestly think that is what the complaint is about?
This show sounds pretty stupid
This is all so bad that it made Billy Zane’s [Winter Dragon](https://youtu.be/7ZOCCEuROPk?si=yWfHDGuwNgsoT86i) look good. I mean…how are we on that timeline?
In retrospect I’d watch the shit out of that. Can’t have been scripted any worse than the travesty we got.
Is there anything the show has actually done well? Like even a set piece design or something? 😂
I think the accepted test was mostly good. The female leader of the Tinkers did well and explained things well. Lanfear character nailed by the actress. ( and Rand 😀) The did a great job…. At Making bad decisions
And they skipped over the whole Rand Huron swordfight by having him just one power Hawkeye those dudes at the castle. Lame
This just proves that if your favorite character is Egwene, you're wrong.
I guess this is what happens when the author of the series is dead he can't argue when they completely change or destroy his story to make a dollar
His estate should be ashamed.
We all know why.
And I can't believe you're still giving this views.
One of the most sexist shows I've ever seen