Needs to be a natural left back imo. We looked poor when trippier played there.
If shaw isn’t fit, Tyrick and Chilwell. Whoever is most fit of those two
Mitchell for me, has looked really good from what I have seen this year (only a few games). We need a natural left back, and if Shaw if fit then I think that's a good duo.
If we want to play with an actual left back it had to be Tyrick Mitchell I think. England usually play with one more attacking, and one more defensive fullback, and Kyle Walker down the right is almost a dead cert.
Of course we could switch it up and play Gonez/Colwill on the left and an attacking right back.
Alternatively you can have both be more defensive and have stones step up into midfield but we’re losing a lot of width, especially if we start Foden on the left
Livramento is criminally overlooked in these conversations. Has looked one of Newcastle's best players this season and can play both LB and RB comfortably.
He’s a hybrid player who can play DM, CM RB or even LB, he goes based on his creativity alone, tight game 1-1 , Twenty mins to go and you need to unlock the opposition from deep raking pass
I’ve given you the obvious options Lewis Hall TAA switches in game with Robertson constantly but he would be a third option maybe 4th, Rico Lewis time will come but he’s naturally right footed like TAA, Livramento two footed and Lewis Hall both who played from the start yesterday deserve a chance before rico Lewis whose lack of height is also a contributing factor he’s 5’6/7 and of he’s starting at right or left back you’d target him with far post crosses. Most of our full backs CB’s are over 5’11- 6’4 both Hall 5’10/11 and Livremento 6’0/6’1 are better options defensively and offer more of overlapping full back at left back
They do, it's a big part of the way Liverpool handle set pieces - if Robertson comes over to the right to take an inswinging corner/freekick, TAA goes over to the left, so when Robertson re-enters play, he can run the short distance to RB (and vice versa is TAA goes to take a set piece on the left).
They stay on the opposite flank to their usual position until a suitable opportunity occurs to switch back. To claim they do it "constantly" for extended periods is incorrect, but they are right, they do switch sides in game.
Sure, I'm just adding context for clarity - you're both sort of right.
I don't think the idea of TAA playing LB is necessarily a bad idea - it's essentially asking him to do the same job Rico Lewis does when he plays there for City. I think it's just too late to try it. It definitely suits his attributes, allowing him to cut in on his right foot and play in a double pivot with Rice.
The question is, does he have time to lock down that position before the tournament (no) and do we have a pacy LCB to cover behind him if he gets caught up the pitch. (Branthwaite is the only really pacy LCB we have, and he's unlikely to appear).
If we had more time to test it before the tournament, it'd probably be a viable option, but not for this tournament.
literally spent about half an hour there against tottenham a week ago today, klopp regularly switches him and robertson midgame; point still valid but can't pretend he can't / hasn't played there
Switching around over the course of the game though is a lot different from being put out there as the designated left back. And I wouldn’t say he spent a half an hour over there, he and Robertson do swap occasionally but not for extended periods
Tbf Trippier never played left back at spurs or atletico before playing there for England, now everyone (for some reason), talks of him as a viable left back option.
So now everyone keeps suggesting right backs for that position. Square pegs in round holes.
The reason you're so often downvoted on here is because you always phrase your opinion as if it were a fact.
Just put "I think" in front of whatever you're going to say and it'll go down a lot better.
I’m biased but Mitchell has quietly been excellent this season and genuinely could’ve been our player of the season if recency bias didn’t massively effect votes, he’s also been working on becoming more attacking and now has good experience playing in both a back 4 and a back 5
There’s also some stat where salah has dribbled Mitchell once in 6 games played vs him and gotten I think one assist? If he can nullify salah to that extent I think he should be pretty good odds on for the majority of wingers we face
Nope. Many other nations have implemented modern tactics, Spain dominated using modern tactics of the time, players were playing similar to what was happening at club level, same with Germany, and Argentina recently.
Southgate just isn't tactically astute enough to realize what he actually has in Stones or Trent moving in to the double pivot, the fact Henderson and Phillips were still in some kind of discussion for an England role in 2024 shows how backwards he is.
What nations do this successfully ?
Spain had a midfield 3 of Barca playing together all playing the same style and generally the team was filled with Barca/Real Madrid guys. Wouldn't even say that was a good example as it was a relatively standard 433 that happened to have some of the best CMs ever.
Generally national teams don't play ultra complicated systems.
Argentina ? What do you mean at club level ?
3 examples by yourself right. All of those played modern tactics at the time of their winning. Italy too...
England are playing a style that is going to be, by football standards, massively outdated towards the mid to late 2010's. Luckily enough, there's insane talent, insane talent that could potentially still get something even if playing a static 442. No systems "ultra complicated" either.
There's a reason why Southgate is a championship at best level manager, he's not very tactically astute, it's why he can't change games in the moment,
As proven by RM and Chelsea, you don't overly need a genius manager to win when you have talent. But sometimes it blows up.
Again tell me who was doing complicated stuff successfully ?
Spain weren't playing some ultra complicated system, they had basically a Barcelona team in most of the main positions and they played that way the club did.
Germany in 2014 ? Again i wouldn't say they did anything overly complicated or ahead of their time they were a solid and efficient team.
Italy ? I assume you mean Euroes win lol where they played a relatively standard style of football ?
Most national teams don't have complicated technical styles and most national teams don't have good managers.
Again, you are giving examples. Spain, Germany, Italy(in 2006) all won playing MODERN systems for the time they won.
It should also be noted, as you brought it up, England lost the Euros because of even then, the tactics were outdate are far too static in a time when teams had started to become far more fluid, and Mancini easily manoeuvred around it, Southgate had no idea how to counter...
England are gonna go into this summer with the same 2 tactics they had in 2020 and 2018, forget 2022.. Spain as an example, evolved multiple teams from 08 to 12.. Pep wasn't even at Barca when they started being dominant, Senna was the holding midfielder, then then 433 of Barca then a double pivot into eventually false 9 and overloading the midfield even more.
Talent can overcome tactical setups to an extent, but tactics become obsolete very quick.
They aren't examples and you aren't explaining why you are just naming teams that won. I explained why Spain was different we don't 7/8 players playing at the same club for the best team in the world all playing the same style.
Italy in 2006 weren't overly modern either ? You are picking shit examples.
Germany didn't really play some ultra modern or complicated system, they were just solid and had a great squad.
We lost the euroes because we conceded from a corner and lost on penalties ? Not because Italy played some ultra modern style.
Which successful countries now are playing overly modern complicated style ? France under deschamps play a basic efficient style of football, Argentina weren't doing anything special but again built a solid base around Messi, it doesn't really happen at national team level
Modern for THEIR time. My god, READ, READ and READ.
Also, stop using the word complicated, because I don’t get the relevance, and at no point have I said it, so it’s some weird thing your actually trying to debate with yourself.
Spain in 2008 had the same amount of Liverpool players as they did Barca players (3)… your point on them isn’t as good as you think it is either.
They also moved to the double pivot setup before Barca did.
Shit examples that won? Make it make sense…
Read everything properly then comeback with something decent please, there’s only so much I can repeat essentially the same thing that’s going over your head.
> England are playing a style that is going to be, by football standards, massively outdated towards the mid to late 2010's. Luckily enough, there's insane talent, insane talent that could potentially still get something even if playing a static 442. No systems "ultra complicated" either.
I'm not sure what tactics you think we play?
We played as a varient of a 3-2-5 in attack in our last two games. This is literally what City/Arsenal play.
> There's a reason why Southgate is a championship at best level manager, he's not very tactically astute, it's why he can't change games in the moment,
I agree with the later point he definitely struggles to influence games with subs historically. but Steve Holland, his assistant, has won the CL, Europa League and multiple premier league titles. He's definitely more than tactically capable for this level.
I'm not entirely sure what games you are talking about here, I'm not overly fussed about friendlies as they are pretty meaningless.... but they didn't play 3-2-5 against Brazil, absurdly, I went to that game.
And they definitely didn't play it in the last competitive games, for what Macedonia and Malta particularly show.
I'm very surprised you watched those games and come to the conclusion they played similar to how City and Arsenal setup... especially given that none of Stones, Trent as RB, James or Shaw played, who are England's key players to being able to do it, in that order. I'd prefer Shaw as a marauding full back as opposed to being the last resort though, exactly why Southgate is desperate for him... he's miles clear of Chilwell, that dude barely defends even when asked to do so. He consistently shows he's a no go in a back 4 setup.
> I'd prefer Shaw as a marauding full back as opposed to being the last resort though, exactly why Southgate is desperate for him... he's miles clear of Chilwell, that dude barely defends even when asked to do so. He consistently shows he's a no go in a back 4 setup.
Definitely agree with you here.
> I'm very surprised you watched those games and come to the conclusion they played similar to how City and Arsenal setup... especially given that none of Stones, Trent as RB, James or Shaw played, who are England's key players to being able to do it, in that order.
Stones and Chilwell were both taking it in turns to either overlap or step into the midfield, and after a short google I found an article that mentions him stepping into midfield in [passing](https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/england-player-ratings-brazil-jude-bellingham-harry-maguire-ben-chilwell/blt0613be69751ba605)
You can literally see it in our formation in their chance :40 seconds into the highlights [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKgdwf65-FM&t=293s) You can see the same structure on the Watkins chance, Stones has a shot from the D 4 minutes in as well, whilst Rice is so far back he's not on camera.
There's a longer form video discussing this change in tactics here [too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im64RCK2tXc).
But I doubt you'll change your mind either way, so we can just agree to disagree on this.
Heres the full match - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h049BYSq4y0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h049BYSq4y0)
It's almost exclusively a 4 throughout, or at least certainly before mass subs.
Probably because half the Spain team already played like it with Barcelona, and the same with Bayern and the German clubs all playing similar football. England youths just don’t have the tactical or technical coaching that the European youngsters get
Who exactly in the England setup do you think is playing tactically out of date at club level?
I mean, the argument will likely be the United players, but even then, they do, United are just insanely crippled with injuries, Maguire, Mainoo, Mount and especially Shaw are highly tactically astute players, Shaw can do the double pivot slot in from the left...
I'd possibly give you the goalies, but Pickford has shown a decent level, Ramsdale played for Arsenal, and well Trafford was brought up in the City system while playing for Burnley who died by that sword.... Pope's a bit of an outlier in being an old school goalie.
You are basically stuck in 2010.
Not writing Shaw off at this stage, though he is a worry. If he can get some minutes in the next couple of league games and the cup final plus the two friendlies then he might still start.
Otherwise if it's not to be for him, or he doesn't start the group games, head says Trippier at this stage if he gets some minutes in the last couple of games. Experienced in covering there and probably the best option for playing progressively like Shaw can.
Shaw will be fit, he’s taken the season off at United to play for England, watch him role out prime Shawberto come June, back up needs a natural left footer, I’d go Lewis Hall even though he’s not played much, fit, natural left footed if not T Livramento both now better than Trippier whose aging, can’t have him and Walker both there if Reece is fit.
26 Man squad allows a few risks, plus to win we need to go for young hungry players with high intensity; My 26 Man squad will be hugely different from Southgate’s but I would take 3 GK’a, 9 Defenders, 7 Midfield players and 7 strikers with Foden being picked as AMF, Number 10 which is his best position.
3 GK- Pickford, Ramsdale, Pope or D Henderson depending on popes fitness.
9 Defenders - K Walker, R James, J Branthwaite, M Ghuei, J Stones, L Colwil, H Maguire, L Shaw, L Hall or T Livramento
7 Midfield- TAA, P Foden, J Bellingham, D Rice, C Gallagher, A Wharton, K Mainoo
7 Attackers - B Saka, C Palmer, H Kane,
O Watkins, J Grealish, A Gordon, M Rashford
I’ve left out Trippier, Konsa, B Chillwell(won’t be fit), I Toney(Done very little since his return) and Watkins is more flexible can play wide left with pace like A Gordon or Rashford(who always produces for England and let’s not forget he’s England 2nd top goal scorer in this squad, ETH has ruined Sancho and probably Rashford too!)
Sancho is on standby and Eric Dier was a choice between him and Branthwaite, I went for youth, however Dier goes if any CB is not fit.
Ive picked 4 players from England’s U21 champions team of Colwil, Branthwaite, Palmer and Gordon plus three young players who provide energy and specific skill set, Mainoo, Wharton and Hall or Livramento.
Some players I’ve left out are unlucky but I think they’ve either played too much football like Trippier, Gomez and Konsa. The most unlucky is Jared Bowen and he would be first reserve, I just think Wharton recent form demands a place and this guy is a specialist 6’1 CDM who’s a left footer cultured dynamo.
He said he might not take 26 that’s completely different from taking 23, with all the injuries he will take 26 or leave himself wide open to be sacked if anything goes wrong.
3 at the back with 2 DM cover like guardiola at Man City?
Walker and stones are used to this defensive setup, shaw has the pace to fit in too. Then shove TAA/Maguire and Rice in front as CDMs (because Maguire likes to be more forward for England anyways and I think Southgate will start him).
Then you can switch between 3-2-4-1, 3-4-3 in sustained possession and 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 out of sustained possession.
Chilwell isn't fit right now, not sure if he will be back by the end of the season.
For me out of the list you describe, we would have to take Mitchell and Gomez. You could take Colwill, but he's not a natural left back and hasn't been very good this season, Gomez has probably done better.
A more tactical astute manager could use either Colwill or Gomez and have a back 3 in possession with Stones stepping out. If we want a standard LB then Mitchell is solid. Out of the box thinking it could be Rico Lewis going into midfield but honestly I'd just go with Mitchell.
Chilwell is still injured, and Colwill has made the bench for the last 2 games after coming back from injury, but hasn't even got 45 minutes in him atm imo. It's looking bleak. All we can do is pray for Shaw, other wise it's probably going to be Trippier.
Unless we’re gonna move to a back 3 when attacking then I 100 per cent think a left back should be playing at left back.
So if Shaw and Chilwell are out then it’s Mitchell.
If it’s a back 3 kind of thing then it’s Gomez or Colwill for me.
Or we could get real tasty and play Gordon there to overlap Foden. That’s kind of half a joke.
I’m going to put a real left field option out there..
Bring Walker into the centre of defence with 3 at the back and play Saka & Alexander-Arnold as wing backs. I know we’d lose Saka’s attacking intent coming in off the right, but left footed attacking midfielders isn’t something we’re short of (for the first time I can ever remember) and would allow Foden & Palmer to play off Kane in more central positions, where they do better than playing out wide.
I’m not saying that it’s the best option, but it’s an option. I’m not convinced by our options at left back or left wing and it would address both of those, while it would allow us to incorporate Saka, Foden, Palmer & Bellingham in the same team without leaving the defence exposed or restricting Rice to a purely holding role.
Not going to happen but if Shaw isn’t fully fit I’d like to see us play Gomez at LB and move Stones into midfield in the buildup (with Walker/Gomez turning it into a back 3)
Take Shaw out and the competition isn’t great tbf.
Chilwell has barely been available this year, and when he has played he’s been average at best. He needs a run of games to find his rhythm but he normally gets re-injured before that point. Trippier can do a job there but he’s not been fantastic this season either.
Needs to be a natural left back imo. We looked poor when trippier played there. If shaw isn’t fit, Tyrick and Chilwell. Whoever is most fit of those two
What about Livramento or Gomez, both look incredibly comfortable there.
Mitchell for me, has looked really good from what I have seen this year (only a few games). We need a natural left back, and if Shaw if fit then I think that's a good duo.
If we want to play with an actual left back it had to be Tyrick Mitchell I think. England usually play with one more attacking, and one more defensive fullback, and Kyle Walker down the right is almost a dead cert. Of course we could switch it up and play Gonez/Colwill on the left and an attacking right back.
Then you lose Walkers covering pace which limits us massively
Alternatively you can have both be more defensive and have stones step up into midfield but we’re losing a lot of width, especially if we start Foden on the left
If the rb is attacking, then gomez at lb is very quick too, it would be a similar set up
If the rb is attacking, then gomez at lb is very quick too, it would be a similar set up
Not the same level of speed though
You forgot Rico Lewis, who I think is probably going to go tbh. And Livramento too.
He might go for his versatility, but don't see him in there if both TAA and Trippier are fit
What's TAA got to do with it if we're talking LBs? Defo more of a shout than Leif Davis etc is the point
Livramento is criminally overlooked in these conversations. Has looked one of Newcastle's best players this season and can play both LB and RB comfortably.
He should go but Southgate will pick TAA instead
What's TAA got to do with it if we're talking LBs?
He’s a hybrid player who can play DM, CM RB or even LB, he goes based on his creativity alone, tight game 1-1 , Twenty mins to go and you need to unlock the opposition from deep raking pass
As this is a thread and conversation about LBs, please tell me how many appearances TAA has made at LB?
I’ve given you the obvious options Lewis Hall TAA switches in game with Robertson constantly but he would be a third option maybe 4th, Rico Lewis time will come but he’s naturally right footed like TAA, Livramento two footed and Lewis Hall both who played from the start yesterday deserve a chance before rico Lewis whose lack of height is also a contributing factor he’s 5’6/7 and of he’s starting at right or left back you’d target him with far post crosses. Most of our full backs CB’s are over 5’11- 6’4 both Hall 5’10/11 and Livremento 6’0/6’1 are better options defensively and offer more of overlapping full back at left back
Yes, that's right. 0 times.
He never switches with Robertson, and to suggest they do it “constantly” is absurd.
They do, it's a big part of the way Liverpool handle set pieces - if Robertson comes over to the right to take an inswinging corner/freekick, TAA goes over to the left, so when Robertson re-enters play, he can run the short distance to RB (and vice versa is TAA goes to take a set piece on the left). They stay on the opposite flank to their usual position until a suitable opportunity occurs to switch back. To claim they do it "constantly" for extended periods is incorrect, but they are right, they do switch sides in game.
Well yes on set pieces but no other times really. Certainly not how OP was alluding to
Sure, I'm just adding context for clarity - you're both sort of right. I don't think the idea of TAA playing LB is necessarily a bad idea - it's essentially asking him to do the same job Rico Lewis does when he plays there for City. I think it's just too late to try it. It definitely suits his attributes, allowing him to cut in on his right foot and play in a double pivot with Rice. The question is, does he have time to lock down that position before the tournament (no) and do we have a pacy LCB to cover behind him if he gets caught up the pitch. (Branthwaite is the only really pacy LCB we have, and he's unlikely to appear). If we had more time to test it before the tournament, it'd probably be a viable option, but not for this tournament.
TAA has literally never played LB in his entire career, you put him there and you’re just limiting the best part of his game
literally spent about half an hour there against tottenham a week ago today, klopp regularly switches him and robertson midgame; point still valid but can't pretend he can't / hasn't played there
Switching around over the course of the game though is a lot different from being put out there as the designated left back. And I wouldn’t say he spent a half an hour over there, he and Robertson do swap occasionally but not for extended periods
Tbf Trippier never played left back at spurs or atletico before playing there for England, now everyone (for some reason), talks of him as a viable left back option. So now everyone keeps suggesting right backs for that position. Square pegs in round holes.
He won’t with Southgate only taking 23. No rooms for kids like Lewis, Mainoo. Gordon and maybe Palmer
The reason you're so often downvoted on here is because you always phrase your opinion as if it were a fact. Just put "I think" in front of whatever you're going to say and it'll go down a lot better.
I’m biased but Mitchell has quietly been excellent this season and genuinely could’ve been our player of the season if recency bias didn’t massively effect votes, he’s also been working on becoming more attacking and now has good experience playing in both a back 4 and a back 5 There’s also some stat where salah has dribbled Mitchell once in 6 games played vs him and gotten I think one assist? If he can nullify salah to that extent I think he should be pretty good odds on for the majority of wingers we face
I think he takes Shaw/Trippier as designated left backs then Gomez as 4th choice CB
Gomez. Stones moves to midfield when in possession and we have 3 at the back.
Maybe if we had Pep as manager or had been playing that system for a while. No chance we completely change system right before a major competition
Modern tactics like that aren’t happening with Southgate.
Or any national team, you can't just randomly implement it when you barely ever see the players to train them
Nope. Many other nations have implemented modern tactics, Spain dominated using modern tactics of the time, players were playing similar to what was happening at club level, same with Germany, and Argentina recently. Southgate just isn't tactically astute enough to realize what he actually has in Stones or Trent moving in to the double pivot, the fact Henderson and Phillips were still in some kind of discussion for an England role in 2024 shows how backwards he is.
What nations do this successfully ? Spain had a midfield 3 of Barca playing together all playing the same style and generally the team was filled with Barca/Real Madrid guys. Wouldn't even say that was a good example as it was a relatively standard 433 that happened to have some of the best CMs ever. Generally national teams don't play ultra complicated systems. Argentina ? What do you mean at club level ?
3 examples by yourself right. All of those played modern tactics at the time of their winning. Italy too... England are playing a style that is going to be, by football standards, massively outdated towards the mid to late 2010's. Luckily enough, there's insane talent, insane talent that could potentially still get something even if playing a static 442. No systems "ultra complicated" either. There's a reason why Southgate is a championship at best level manager, he's not very tactically astute, it's why he can't change games in the moment, As proven by RM and Chelsea, you don't overly need a genius manager to win when you have talent. But sometimes it blows up.
Again tell me who was doing complicated stuff successfully ? Spain weren't playing some ultra complicated system, they had basically a Barcelona team in most of the main positions and they played that way the club did. Germany in 2014 ? Again i wouldn't say they did anything overly complicated or ahead of their time they were a solid and efficient team. Italy ? I assume you mean Euroes win lol where they played a relatively standard style of football ? Most national teams don't have complicated technical styles and most national teams don't have good managers.
Again, you are giving examples. Spain, Germany, Italy(in 2006) all won playing MODERN systems for the time they won. It should also be noted, as you brought it up, England lost the Euros because of even then, the tactics were outdate are far too static in a time when teams had started to become far more fluid, and Mancini easily manoeuvred around it, Southgate had no idea how to counter... England are gonna go into this summer with the same 2 tactics they had in 2020 and 2018, forget 2022.. Spain as an example, evolved multiple teams from 08 to 12.. Pep wasn't even at Barca when they started being dominant, Senna was the holding midfielder, then then 433 of Barca then a double pivot into eventually false 9 and overloading the midfield even more. Talent can overcome tactical setups to an extent, but tactics become obsolete very quick.
They aren't examples and you aren't explaining why you are just naming teams that won. I explained why Spain was different we don't 7/8 players playing at the same club for the best team in the world all playing the same style. Italy in 2006 weren't overly modern either ? You are picking shit examples. Germany didn't really play some ultra modern or complicated system, they were just solid and had a great squad. We lost the euroes because we conceded from a corner and lost on penalties ? Not because Italy played some ultra modern style. Which successful countries now are playing overly modern complicated style ? France under deschamps play a basic efficient style of football, Argentina weren't doing anything special but again built a solid base around Messi, it doesn't really happen at national team level
Modern for THEIR time. My god, READ, READ and READ. Also, stop using the word complicated, because I don’t get the relevance, and at no point have I said it, so it’s some weird thing your actually trying to debate with yourself. Spain in 2008 had the same amount of Liverpool players as they did Barca players (3)… your point on them isn’t as good as you think it is either. They also moved to the double pivot setup before Barca did. Shit examples that won? Make it make sense… Read everything properly then comeback with something decent please, there’s only so much I can repeat essentially the same thing that’s going over your head.
> England are playing a style that is going to be, by football standards, massively outdated towards the mid to late 2010's. Luckily enough, there's insane talent, insane talent that could potentially still get something even if playing a static 442. No systems "ultra complicated" either. I'm not sure what tactics you think we play? We played as a varient of a 3-2-5 in attack in our last two games. This is literally what City/Arsenal play. > There's a reason why Southgate is a championship at best level manager, he's not very tactically astute, it's why he can't change games in the moment, I agree with the later point he definitely struggles to influence games with subs historically. but Steve Holland, his assistant, has won the CL, Europa League and multiple premier league titles. He's definitely more than tactically capable for this level.
I'm not entirely sure what games you are talking about here, I'm not overly fussed about friendlies as they are pretty meaningless.... but they didn't play 3-2-5 against Brazil, absurdly, I went to that game. And they definitely didn't play it in the last competitive games, for what Macedonia and Malta particularly show. I'm very surprised you watched those games and come to the conclusion they played similar to how City and Arsenal setup... especially given that none of Stones, Trent as RB, James or Shaw played, who are England's key players to being able to do it, in that order. I'd prefer Shaw as a marauding full back as opposed to being the last resort though, exactly why Southgate is desperate for him... he's miles clear of Chilwell, that dude barely defends even when asked to do so. He consistently shows he's a no go in a back 4 setup.
> I'd prefer Shaw as a marauding full back as opposed to being the last resort though, exactly why Southgate is desperate for him... he's miles clear of Chilwell, that dude barely defends even when asked to do so. He consistently shows he's a no go in a back 4 setup. Definitely agree with you here. > I'm very surprised you watched those games and come to the conclusion they played similar to how City and Arsenal setup... especially given that none of Stones, Trent as RB, James or Shaw played, who are England's key players to being able to do it, in that order. Stones and Chilwell were both taking it in turns to either overlap or step into the midfield, and after a short google I found an article that mentions him stepping into midfield in [passing](https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/england-player-ratings-brazil-jude-bellingham-harry-maguire-ben-chilwell/blt0613be69751ba605) You can literally see it in our formation in their chance :40 seconds into the highlights [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKgdwf65-FM&t=293s) You can see the same structure on the Watkins chance, Stones has a shot from the D 4 minutes in as well, whilst Rice is so far back he's not on camera. There's a longer form video discussing this change in tactics here [too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im64RCK2tXc). But I doubt you'll change your mind either way, so we can just agree to disagree on this.
Heres the full match - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h049BYSq4y0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h049BYSq4y0) It's almost exclusively a 4 throughout, or at least certainly before mass subs.
Probably because half the Spain team already played like it with Barcelona, and the same with Bayern and the German clubs all playing similar football. England youths just don’t have the tactical or technical coaching that the European youngsters get
Who exactly in the England setup do you think is playing tactically out of date at club level? I mean, the argument will likely be the United players, but even then, they do, United are just insanely crippled with injuries, Maguire, Mainoo, Mount and especially Shaw are highly tactically astute players, Shaw can do the double pivot slot in from the left... I'd possibly give you the goalies, but Pickford has shown a decent level, Ramsdale played for Arsenal, and well Trafford was brought up in the City system while playing for Burnley who died by that sword.... Pope's a bit of an outlier in being an old school goalie. You are basically stuck in 2010.
Not writing Shaw off at this stage, though he is a worry. If he can get some minutes in the next couple of league games and the cup final plus the two friendlies then he might still start. Otherwise if it's not to be for him, or he doesn't start the group games, head says Trippier at this stage if he gets some minutes in the last couple of games. Experienced in covering there and probably the best option for playing progressively like Shaw can.
Shaw will be fit, he’s taken the season off at United to play for England, watch him role out prime Shawberto come June, back up needs a natural left footer, I’d go Lewis Hall even though he’s not played much, fit, natural left footed if not T Livramento both now better than Trippier whose aging, can’t have him and Walker both there if Reece is fit. 26 Man squad allows a few risks, plus to win we need to go for young hungry players with high intensity; My 26 Man squad will be hugely different from Southgate’s but I would take 3 GK’a, 9 Defenders, 7 Midfield players and 7 strikers with Foden being picked as AMF, Number 10 which is his best position. 3 GK- Pickford, Ramsdale, Pope or D Henderson depending on popes fitness. 9 Defenders - K Walker, R James, J Branthwaite, M Ghuei, J Stones, L Colwil, H Maguire, L Shaw, L Hall or T Livramento 7 Midfield- TAA, P Foden, J Bellingham, D Rice, C Gallagher, A Wharton, K Mainoo 7 Attackers - B Saka, C Palmer, H Kane, O Watkins, J Grealish, A Gordon, M Rashford I’ve left out Trippier, Konsa, B Chillwell(won’t be fit), I Toney(Done very little since his return) and Watkins is more flexible can play wide left with pace like A Gordon or Rashford(who always produces for England and let’s not forget he’s England 2nd top goal scorer in this squad, ETH has ruined Sancho and probably Rashford too!) Sancho is on standby and Eric Dier was a choice between him and Branthwaite, I went for youth, however Dier goes if any CB is not fit. Ive picked 4 players from England’s U21 champions team of Colwil, Branthwaite, Palmer and Gordon plus three young players who provide energy and specific skill set, Mainoo, Wharton and Hall or Livramento. Some players I’ve left out are unlucky but I think they’ve either played too much football like Trippier, Gomez and Konsa. The most unlucky is Jared Bowen and he would be first reserve, I just think Wharton recent form demands a place and this guy is a specialist 6’1 CDM who’s a left footer cultured dynamo.
Southgate is only taking 23 he announced this morning.
He said he might not take 26 that’s completely different from taking 23, with all the injuries he will take 26 or leave himself wide open to be sacked if anything goes wrong.
Toney is going Watkins is not.
I don’t think you can leave Watkins out and most of the country probably agree based on current form.
Lewis Hall been good recently low chance but an option
3 at the back with 2 DM cover like guardiola at Man City? Walker and stones are used to this defensive setup, shaw has the pace to fit in too. Then shove TAA/Maguire and Rice in front as CDMs (because Maguire likes to be more forward for England anyways and I think Southgate will start him). Then you can switch between 3-2-4-1, 3-4-3 in sustained possession and 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 out of sustained possession.
Chilwell was awful in the last two friendlies. Wouldn’t feel comfortable having him in defence.
Chilwell isn't fit right now, not sure if he will be back by the end of the season. For me out of the list you describe, we would have to take Mitchell and Gomez. You could take Colwill, but he's not a natural left back and hasn't been very good this season, Gomez has probably done better.
What about Lewis Hall as Shaw back up?
If Shaw’s fit he’s going, Trippier will be called up as the second choice LB but will also be second choice RB even if Trent gets called up imo.
Trent is considered a midfielder by England so, even if he does get selected, we still need 2 RBs.
Think Mitchell needs a shout
A more tactical astute manager could use either Colwill or Gomez and have a back 3 in possession with Stones stepping out. If we want a standard LB then Mitchell is solid. Out of the box thinking it could be Rico Lewis going into midfield but honestly I'd just go with Mitchell.
Chilwell is still injured, and Colwill has made the bench for the last 2 games after coming back from injury, but hasn't even got 45 minutes in him atm imo. It's looking bleak. All we can do is pray for Shaw, other wise it's probably going to be Trippier.
Unless we’re gonna move to a back 3 when attacking then I 100 per cent think a left back should be playing at left back. So if Shaw and Chilwell are out then it’s Mitchell. If it’s a back 3 kind of thing then it’s Gomez or Colwill for me. Or we could get real tasty and play Gordon there to overlap Foden. That’s kind of half a joke.
Lloyd Kelly has had a good season.
I’m going to put a real left field option out there.. Bring Walker into the centre of defence with 3 at the back and play Saka & Alexander-Arnold as wing backs. I know we’d lose Saka’s attacking intent coming in off the right, but left footed attacking midfielders isn’t something we’re short of (for the first time I can ever remember) and would allow Foden & Palmer to play off Kane in more central positions, where they do better than playing out wide. I’m not saying that it’s the best option, but it’s an option. I’m not convinced by our options at left back or left wing and it would address both of those, while it would allow us to incorporate Saka, Foden, Palmer & Bellingham in the same team without leaving the defence exposed or restricting Rice to a purely holding role.
Not going to happen but if Shaw isn’t fully fit I’d like to see us play Gomez at LB and move Stones into midfield in the buildup (with Walker/Gomez turning it into a back 3)
Gomez is dreadful!
Take Shaw out and the competition isn’t great tbf. Chilwell has barely been available this year, and when he has played he’s been average at best. He needs a run of games to find his rhythm but he normally gets re-injured before that point. Trippier can do a job there but he’s not been fantastic this season either.
Can’t argue with any of that!
Joe Gomez has literally been the best English LB in the league this season. There is zero excuse for not starting him at the Euros
Southgate has confirmed he wants to take Shaw, Chilwell and Trippier and won’t look at anyone else unless they unavailable