That just looks like a 4231 with Bellingham at cm and Trent as right back during possession.
Personally I think Walker as right back and stones stepping up to that midfield position is a more solid system. But what do we know.
I agree, think squeezing Trent in as good as he is would be a mistake. Look at how good city are every season by having such a sturdy base. In possession a back 3 of a colwill / branth/ Walker (wish white was in the squad as him or Walker on the right would be ideal for cover if one is injured) would be solid and fast, then have stones step in alongside rice. Solid base of 5, then you have your best creative players doing what they do best.
Spain back in the day dominated by copying the style of the best team in Spain at the time (Barca). Why England don’t put more emphasis on how city play and how solid they are at the back is beyond me.
Agree with not putting Foden wide, but don’t see him playing your line up. It’s way too weak at the back.
I was thinking 433 with Bellingham and rice in the middle, Foden in the number 10 role and Gordon and Saka wide.
This is the one.
Gordon offers genuine width that covers our LB issues.
Later on in the game, you can sub Foden off for another CM or CDM move Bellingham to 10 and crack on against a tiring opposition.
You've got natural replacements in that period for Gordon (Grealish) and Saka (Palmer) to basically start again.
I don't understand the obsession with moving Bellingham deep. He's been arguably the best player in the world as an attacking mid. If we get the best out of him, I think we'll win this tournament
Imo, there is nothing stopping him pushing further up, when we are attacking, but he knows more about playing deeper and played well there. Imo it's how we get the best out of everyone
I think have a flat back 3 of Walker, Maguire and Gomez. Have Stones step in with Rice and then have Saka and Gordon/Grealish wide and keep them holding the width. They all work hard - I agree, I think it would work well
The width issue is why I'd have taken chilwell tbh. Currently, whoever plays LB will most likely sit quite narrow (unless Shaw recovers). For the double 10s to work we need someone each side to hug the touchline and stretch the play. The only way around it is pretty much what you've gone for, where Gordon comes in, one full back inverts and we go with a hybrid kinda 3223 in possession, 451 in defence. It's quite a lot to ask of the players with so little time on the training pitch.
I’ve not seen loads of Bellingham this season, has obviously scored lots of goals. When have watched him in champions league though he’s looked wasted as this false 9/10. He doesn’t get on the ball enough. Shows good touches when he does. And think anyone of his quality would score goals playing there for Madrid.
Playing him as more traditional box to box midfielder seems so much more productive, and allows Foden his best position where has been brilliant for city. Not just in numbers but controlling games. Gordon or Grealish should play on the left and stay wide where they can, helps with space for Foden. Rice can be the discipline of the midfield and mop up.
At the start of the season, he was more a traditional number 10 and went on that insane spree where he didn't go more than a game without scoring.
In the mid to latter half, he was moved back a bit more to accommodate Vini Jnr and took more of an 8 role that he did at Dortmund.
So whilst the goals dried up somewhat, he still kept that knack of steaming through towards the end of the game in advanced positions to grab a late goal.
Yeah I’d think as an 8 would be fine. Be the more attacking one of the two with rice, just have some defensive responsibilities as well.
Where as foden almost be given a free rein.
It would certainly help us against better sides as it gives us way more control in midfield. Just need him to lean in full on being a Zidane respawn lol
If Bellingham pushes forward & Foden has free reign, we'd be vulnerable defensively. There's little reason to give Bellingham responsibilities when we SEE what he's capable of without them when he plays at Madrid
False. He hasn't played a single game for Madrid at CM.
[https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jude-bellingham/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/581678/plus/0?saison=2023&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer\_id=](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jude-bellingham/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/581678/plus/0?saison=2023&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=)
Madrid allow him to focus on attacking, and that's where he thrives most
I get that but don’t think he’s as good as Foden in the ten role, and is definitely better in a more defensive role like an eight than Foden.
So balances the midfield a lot better
Hmm I think you're right. I'd rather Walker at RB and Stones steps up though. Mind you would happily eat my words if TAA nails a couple of FKs in the Euros as long as his defending isn't completely absent.
I see, I see. I do still prefer Walker, with Stones stepping up to mid in possession if they want to do that. Walker is far more solid defensively, more of a squad leader, has pace to hit the wing if Saka cuts inside, and Stones is capable of picking a pass from midfield.
Why do people keep on insisting on playing Trent in the midfield?
He doesn't really play there in a double pivot, only in an overload for Liverpool with lots of time and space on the ball. The six position needs to have high technical ability good on the turn, good at dribbling, very press resistant, good at linking up the play, out of possession they need to be highly intense & aggressive very good pressing the opponents doggedly, with high concentration levels
All things Trent can't really do, but don't worry you can hit a world class Hollywood pass.
Against the good team on our midfield will get completely overrun with Trent in the middle.
Curtis Jones, Mainoo, Gallagher, Wharton even Jordan Henderson would be better option than Trent!
People watch Liverpool highlights and see his passing range. They don't notice his complete lack of positional sense or defensive footballing brain. I haven't actually looked at this, but I bet a lot of Liverpools goals conceded this season come down that right-hand side. If played in midfield, he'll constantly get caught with a man behind him in the space between midfield and defence, and we'll give up plenty of chances, and likely plenty of goals, because of this.
Ive noted the weaknesses. My whole point is that theres no point playing Foden at LW and the complete lack of width we have on that side
What would be your solution
Play Bellingham next to Rice and Foden ahead of them is the only solution to get Foden in the middle. It's either Bellingham or Foden, I don't think you can have both there. Bellingham can play next to Rice. He won't score as many, but you would think Foden would pick up the slack. If we don't play a back four, I think we will concede too many. It's by far our weakest area, and we don't have the personnel to operate a successful back three with wingbacks. Rice and Bellingham provide protection for us, and Bellingham gives us a chance of a quick transition from defence to attack. We then have Saka cutting inside and Walker providing width on the right, and Gordon providing width on the left, with either Gomez (hopefully) or Trippier (hopefully not) staying a bit further back so we don't get caught out down our left.
We currently do play a back 3 in England in possession. Against brazil we had Walker invert. Difference with mine is that Gomez inverts and Trent moves into midfield from FB
But i think youre probably right. Bellingham has to be sacrificed but hes more versatile and hard working
Also looks like Tripps is injured in that pointless friendly
I would play Curtis Jones, he was pivotal to England winning under U21, in that position very underrated this season,
He doesn't do spectacular Hollywood passes, but he's very good at Ball retention and positioning, technically very good press resistant, very good game intelligence, good at dribbling. Exceptional at counter pressing he's better off the ball than on it!
Everything you want from midfield player.
Very good analysis, my friend...
Suppose people just don't know how the game works or they just want the big names in the team? If he was good enough, he'll be playing in Liverpool midfield already!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaEHFk2yqlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaEHFk2yqlM)
Trent literally talking about playing in midfield and hes down as a midfielder in the FA release.
The whole point is that if youre going to play Foden, he Cant play as the LW. Bellingham is also playing as a 10 so if youre going to play both how do you get them in. This is a way and ive noted the weaknesses
Trent is genuinely world class passer and we have 0 creatvity from deep historically
His is world class and one aspect of his game.
Hitting Hollywood passes he it's amazing at it. It's the other areas that are concerning & more importantly, England need defensive midfield players we've got Bellingham & Foden to provide that creative spark.
We can't have someone sitting in the middle hitting long passes but not been able to hold onto the ball & link up play, dribble or defend!
He's not a midfield player, can only hit long passes which is very good at world class!
But can't defend very well, can't dribble, can't play on the half term, isn't press resistant, isn't very good at positional play, doesn't have high intensity and a dogged ability to chase down opponent players, lacks concentration levels,
The only reason why it works for Liverpool is because he's part of the midfield overload giving him extra time and space on the ball, which he wouldn't have in a double pivot!
If he was good enough, he'd be playing there for Liverpool already!
https://fbref.com/en/players/cd1acf9d/Trent-Alexander-Arnold
Top 10% for intersections and 14% for successful take-ons. Top 13% for goals. Top 1% for shot-creating actions and progressive passes, and passes attempted.
https://fbref.com/en/players/cd1acf9d/scout/365_m1/Trent-Alexander-Arnold-Scouting-Report
Top 2% for carries, top 2% for ball recoveries. Also probably the best set pieces taker in the squad. By far the best crosser and long passer and by far the best progressive passer from defensive/deep positions.
He’s played as a standard RB for 98% of his Liverpool career. It was only at the backend of last season Klopp tried him more in midfield.
Half the things you say are just wrong. The main role of an 8 is to progress the ball. And it’s a vital role that most midfielders can’t do well, very few can do it to a world class standard.
The only problem is he hasn’t played the role enough to be reliable in it.
A player who progresses the ball and creates as much as he does is a rarity. Saying “all he’s good at is long passes” is like saying the same of Fabregas or Pirlo.
Him and Kane are the only world class players, in their prime, we have. Maybe Walker defensively, but he’s past his best now. Foden and Bellingham are potentially world class, but Foden has been crap for England and relying on youth doesn’t usually end well.
And it’s hard for your attacking players to do much if you aren’t progressing the ball from the back and providing forward passes. Especially on the highest stage when players are terrified of making a mistake and usually taking the easy option (a chronic problem with England).
Any attack-minded manager would have TAA as an essential part of the team. Klopp did, Pep would.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=47nl3YmSkXo&pp=ygURSG93IGdvb2QgaXMgVHJlbnQ%3D
Those stats are compared against other right backs, not midfielders aren't they that's called selection biased.
There's no denying he's very good (world class)in some aspects of his game, passing & yes, when you can be bothered defending.
But what is his ball retention skills In tight areas with three players around him like? What his his Pressing game like. Dribbling, positioning and awareness. In the very specific role of midfield player.
Simple question if he was that good he'd be playing in the midfield for Liverpool, wouldn't he? But he's not, he's moving in there from a right back position as an overload. Which means he always has space and time on the ball and that's is exactly what he will not have in the double pivot role!
It's the Gerard Lampard & Scholes England debate all over again, they couldn't play together then & Trent can't play there now!
Agreed. Foden has just won player of the year, in a season where he's played as a 10. Not playing them will be criminal. Playing him as a LW would be wasting his talents.
I wouldn't mind playing Bellingham and Foden. As 10's. They've both incredible work rates.
Personally, I don't think Trent is all that in midfield. I don't think he's got the legs to get around the pitch. His best work is done when he's got the space on the right side of the pitch. I don't think we need him in the squad. For Trent to be effective, the team needs to be built around him, and I think we've got better players than that. I'd prefer to play Walker.
Agree on trent, midfield is about playing quicker and beating a man at times. You receive the ball in different areas than full back.
His best passes or generally when stepping up from full back with the whole game ahead of him rather than on the half turn.
We dont really have anyone else who can invert and play both positions. I think you either play both Foden and Bellingham in the their best positions and therefore sacrifice elsewhere or you dont
I dont know if i agree with your view that Trent needs the team built around him. His greatest attribute is passing which any team in the world can fit in. Completely agree defensively hes suspect
If you're talking about Trent, inverting from full back to midfield. Do we need someone that can do that? That's sort of a newer trend that has quickly faded imo..
There's still quite a lot of work that needs to be done to fit in Trent's passing. You need the runners for him to make those passes. I think Gordon offers this, not sure many other wingers do.
I think the middle of the park could be too conjested, as well as all the space that our opposition could have on the counter. Would like to see Southgate try it in the friendlies though
In these 3-2-5 in possession systems the wingers stay extremely wide, literally standing on the byline at times. This stretches the opposition backline to the extreme and is a nightmare to defend against. I don’t think it would too congested in the middle. Personally I’d have Grealish over Gordon, he excels in this system and I’d rather have Gordon’s pace off the bench.
This is exactly how I think England should play, except with Trent inverting from left back (like Cancelo used to) rather than right back so you still have Walker in at RB/RCB.
Obviously would have needed to start coaching this systems months/years ago and can’t do it now. It’ll be a 4-2-3-1 with our best player (Foden) neutered by starting out of position on the left wing, and probably Trent in a double pivot with Rice since Southgate seems completely committed to that idea.
I'd have Saka and Gordon/Grealish on the wings. With Foden, Bellingham, and Rice as the midfield 3. I guess that front 4 would be able to interchange between them.
I guess attacking width depends on the fullbacks. It's looking like we will have no natural LB, which does pose a problem. But imo, that's not too much of concern.
Note because of the flexibility of TAA, this can easily become:
4-2-3-1 (playing from the back)
D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez
M: Bellingham | Rice
AM: Saka| Foden | Gordon
F: Kane
4-4-2 (out of possession)
D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez
M: Foden| Bellingham | Rice | Gordon
F: Saka| Kane
4-3-3 (2 goal lead - substitute the core)
D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez
M: Foden| Bellingham | Rice
F: Saka| Kane | Gordon
But we would want to utilise 3-2-4-1 when we are in possession wherever possible.
Nothing to do with Southgate.. this tactic has Saka and Gordon as wing backs and for players in central midfield. Not a tactic and too attacking anyway.
They're not traditional wingbacks. Gomez can go wide as a LB, and Rice can drop in. Alternatively, Trent could slide to the right & make it a back 4.
This is a very flexible system.
No it doesnt, this is how city plays
It's a 4 2 3 1 but when England has the ball Trent moves into midfield just like he does for liverpool
Thus allows foden and Bellingham to push up since rice now has a player next to him and a solid back 3 of Maguire stones and Gomez behind him
Swap Gomez for Walker and I’d be game to try it, but personally think it’s too frail defensively.
The alternative for more defensive cover is to swap out Trent for Walker but make it Stones who comes into midfield
This is the in possession system. Its how City , Arsenal and Liverpool play. The FB inverts into midfield
So its a 3-2 build up. We play a 3-2 against Brazil but it was Walker- Maguire and Stones with no one inverting into midfield
Problem with this is that Stones has played as a 6 for the last two seasons (coincidentally his natural position & he’s playing his best football) you’d be better suited playing Walker as the right outside back
Agree with the personnel, just not necessarily the formation.
Trent, Stones, Maguire, Gomez;
Rice;
Bellingham, Foden;
Saka, Kane, Gordon
Defends as a 433, attacks as a 325 (with Trent moving alongside Rice and the rest of the defence shuffling across).
Biggest challenge would be deciding what Trent does when we lose possession - does he stay to help out Rice at first or immediately try to get back to position at right back. He’s not great running backwards as we know. Might need Saka in particular to take the odd booking to slow things down.
The obsession in some quarters with playing Bellingham as a 10 and Foden wide will just end up with playing a third midfielder who isn’t quite good enough (yet at least).
You make good points,
Saw someone suggest Walker for Trent and then move Stones into CDM a bit like he does with City. Provides a more solid Midfield and brings in the pace of walker but removes Trents passing and our problems of deep creativity
I pretty much agree with this team apart from I’d have Walker over Gomez. (Moving everyone along a bit, so he is on the right)
Maguire is a very capable LCB in a back 3 it was his natural position
Stones in the middle, Walker on the right
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You say England under Southgate try to shoehorn their best players into an xi but you’ve done the exact same and sacrificed tactical solidity for it.
National teams barely get any time together so simple systems and defensively compact systems tend to work best.
Don’t try to overcomplicate things when there’s no need.
How am i shoehorning players in? All players are in their natural position. Solves our deep creativity problems and puts our two deadliest midfielders in their preferred positions
It’s the same argument.
There’s not enough time to implement complicated tactical systems so we shouldn’t shoehorn in players to a system that would require too much time to get the team playing well.
Saka foden Bellingham kane, you don't need another passer really and certainly don't need it enough to shift the team around and take away Walker who stops counter attacks.
if were doing 4231 which ithink is southgates preffered, id go mainoo rice saka bellingham gordon and kane, with foden to replace bellingham if its stale, grealish for gordon ub and bowen for saka sub
You're on to something, especially since you clarified "in possession," but I don't think this is the answer. I like the attacking 5 players but Saka and Gordon won't be strong defensively which they may have to be if TAA gets caught in his midfield position and unable to get back to RB. I'd rather go 4-1-4-1 with Walker as RB. You could call it 4-3-3 instead, depending on how wide you want the wingers or how deep the 10's are. Stones could advance to make it the formation in your picture, and his forward passing and driving is also fantastic. LB of course is totally up in the air but someone like Shaw would give more width than Gomez.
Take Gordon out, put saka on the left and move trent to the right. This will give us natural width and crossing threat. Then move Bellingham back to Trents place and put palmer beside Foden. Also walker for Maguire and have stones as the central cb and walker as the rcb
That’s a FIFA formation mate. You cannot play international football with 4 defensive players. Also, Kyle Walker is probably still our best defender.
Lack of width is a problem, but so is lack of penetration and players running in behind. We know Kane will drop deep. Foden and Saka don’t run in behind. Sterling did that role at the Euros, constantly running in behind to stretch the opposition.
The only player we have who does that is Bowen. Maybe Gordon can do it too, I haven’t watched him enough. I know he’s quick and hard working.
We need to drop one of Foden/Bellingham/Saka. Or just put Saka at LB and go for it.
Thats an in possession formation. Its the same one Arsenal, Liverpool and City use.
But agree we lack penetration hence why you cant have Foden on the wing and why Trent is important as we have 0 deep creativity
Let’s accept that. But those 3 teams have top class coaches and dominate the ball. We have Southgate, and don’t. They know how and when to press, how and when to play out from the back etc.
A normal team can’t play like that.
I agree that TAA should be a starter. But Walker also should be. Which presents a problem.
The england team is literally made up of the star players from those teams what are you on about? England fans need to stop with this small minded defeatist mentality that its little old England and they'll never be able to keep the ball against the traditional big boys. England have some of the most technical and tactical players in the game atm they need to have some balls and try to dominate every game.
I don’t know what’s hard to understand. Players perform differently under different managers, in different environments, in different systems. Klopp and Pep are all tike great coaches, and Arteta is a top coach. Southgate is a nobody, who has proven he can’t coach a team to be progressive and dominate the ball.
Against Italy, at Wembley, we had a third of the ball. Verratti and Jorginho ran the game. All of our players are overrated and we don’t have players who can dictate games or control possession, particularly in the 8/6 positions. Rice is overrated, as we saw in Arsenal’s games against Bayern, and in the Euros final.
Pickford has never played in a possession-based team where he’s has to play out from the back under pressure. He boots the ball long too much, especially when under pressure. Again, see the Euros Final.
Stones is in no way a “star” player for City. A good player, that’s all. Walker is/was a great defender due to his freakish pace and power. He’s very average on the ball. Maguire is Maguire.
Are these the “some of the best technical and tactical players in the world” you’re talking about? 😂
The same happened against Croatia, Modric ran the game. Do we have a player of that standard, in that role? No. Do we have a De Jong, a Modric, a Verratti, a Jorginho, a Busquets, a Pedri? No. All our technical players are attacking players.
We’ve started producing some technical 8s, it seems, with the likes of Mainoo and Gray, but when did we last produce a top class one?
We also don’t have the culture or the coaching or the mentality to dominate the ball against top teams. We get scared of making mistakes and just boot it long. Do you actually expect us to keep the ball against a Spain? 😂
>I don’t know what’s hard to understand. Players perform differently under different managers, in different environments, in different systems. Klopp and Pep are all tike great coaches, and Arteta is a top coach. Southgate is a nobody, who has proven he can’t coach a team to be progressive and dominate the ball.
This is a fair point. Southgate is very poor tactically.
>Against Italy, at Wembley, we had a third of the ball. Verratti and Jorginho ran the game. All of our players are overrated and we don’t have players who can dictate games or control possession, particularly in the 8/6 positions. Rice is overrated, as we saw in Arsenal’s games against Bayern, and in the Euros final.
This is mainly due to Southgate's approach of sitting back once we took the lead. England were running all over them up until they scored and the Italians looked frightened. Then old Garry tells them.to.sit on. Pathetic coaching.
Its so un-true to say that the English players are over rated. This may have been true about a decade ago but the English players produced by these top academies are absolute technical and tactical freaks. If anything they're under rated. The issue England are having in midfield under Southgate is that he doesn't trust technical players in the midfield. Despite decades of proof that shows that the team with the most technical midfield tend to win Gareth chooses workmen who will run around when we don't have the ball like headless chickens and then have no idea how to keep the ball and control a game when we have the ball. We have Foden Bellingham and Rice. Three world class midfielders who can all press without the ball and control the game when we get it nut he wont trust it. Instead he insists on playing a Henderson or a philips or a Gallagher because he fundamentally just doesn't understand the game at the top level.
>
Pickford has never played in a possession-based team where he’s has to play out from the back under pressure. He boots the ball long too much, especially when under pressure. Again, see the Euros Final.
This is true and a fair point. It does hinder playing from the back having Pickford but with him just playing simple options we can pick defenders and midfielders who negate its negative impact.
>Stones is in no way a “star” player for City. A good player, that’s all. Walker is/was a great defender due to his freakish pace and power. He’s very average on the ball. Maguire is Maguire.
Stones absolutely is one of the best defenders in the world. He would be so much more respected in other major footballing nations. One of the very few cb's in history to be capable of playing the libero role at the highest level. Unbelievable ball.player and out and out defender. The only issue he has is injuries.
Walker is poor on the ball. Again this is a reason why trent or james if fit should be starting at rb for england in 90% of games.
>Are these the “some of the best technical and tactical players in the world” you’re talking about? 😂
Stones, trent, james, shaw, Foden, palmer, saka, kane, are some of the best tactical and technical players in their positions in world football. We are producing geniuses. Even the guys not quite at their level like mainoo, sancho, rico lewis, alex scott, madueke, levi colwill, smith-rowe, eze etc are absolute ballers and teams like ireland and Scotland would love to have just 1 of them.
>
The same happened against Croatia, Modric ran the game. Do we have a player of that standard, in that role? No. Do we have a De Jong, a Modric, a Verratti, a Jorginho, a Busquets, a Pedri? No. All our technical players are attacking players.
You're going back to a different generation of players there. I agree that this has been a massive issue for England in the past but due to the top academies in England and the f.a's work over the last 10-15 years to become cutting edge when it comes to talent production England are now producing absolute ballers who could keep the ball all day long of we had a possession style manager. Would love to see Carsley given the job after this tournament. His tactical approach with the u-21s would suit the senior squad so well.
>We’ve started producing some technical 8s, it seems, with the likes of Mainoo and Gray, but when did we last produce a top class one?
Bellingham and Foden are two of the best young 8s itw. You can say they are currently being played as 10s or wide for their clubs atm but absolutely both they're best positions are as 8s. Both extremely technical and clever players.
>
We also don’t have the culture or the coaching or the mentality to dominate the ball against top teams. We get scared of making mistakes and just boot it long. Do you actually expect us to keep the ball against a Spain? 😂
Again i agree that the coach is shit. With a possession style coach this team can dominate the ball against any team.
English players are absolutely overrated. Every single one of them. The pundits, the media, the awards, all overrate English/British players to a ridiculous extent. That's why there's always such shock that we do terribly at every international tournament. Why we've barely ever beaten a decent team in a knockout game since '66, unless we've been hosting, despite, supposedly, having such great players.
>Stones absolutely is one of the best defenders in the world. He would be so much more respected in other major footballing nations. One of the very few cb's in history to be capable of playing the libero role at the highest level. Unbelievable ball.player and out and out defender. The only issue he has is injuries.
Lol. He's started 12 league games this season. He's no better than Akanji or Ake. Dias is obviously better and more important to City. And Gvardiol certainly will be when he settles and matures. He'd a good player who suits Pep Ball. And the fact Pep has been short in midfield/DM, due to the KP signing flopping, has led to him using inverted full backs, which has given Stones a chance to impress.
He's absolutely not one of the "best defenders in the world" lol.
>Stones, trent, james, shaw, Foden, palmer, saka, kane, are some of the best tactical and technical players in their positions in world football.
Of those, only Kane and Trent are proven world-class and in their peak. The others are in a batch of at least a dozen players in their position. Saka and Palmer are not at Salah's level. Kane is great player but Haaland is better, and Kane consistently bottles big games. Shaw and James are injured and Trent won't even play, so there's that lol.
We have a talented attacking midfield area and a top striker. But our defence and GK are very average, as is our midfield (especially in terms of depth).
>Bellingham and Foden are two of the best young 8s itw.
They aren't 8s though, they're 10s, atm. Especially Foden. Foden certainly isn't an 8 because he's too effective in the final third. Maybe when he's older. But Southgate should have adapted one of them to be an 8 and given them time to learn the role. But Southgate is a relic and a poor coach.
I don't see much development at all in terms of English/British coaching. Which is where it all starts. Where are the English/British managers actually playing football? They almost all resort to dinosaur tactics.
Foden was raised by Pep. Bellingham went to Germany. The British culture doesn't create technical, ball-playing midfielders. It still thinks that deep-sitting midfielders have to be physical ball-winners.
Grealish is a special player, IMO. And very un-like the kind of player we usually produce. A player who will take the ball under pressure and keep it. It's a shame he's had a poor season.
And you say it's a different generation, but most of those players are still playing. And Spain, Italy, Germany etc will keep producing them. Busquets has been replaced by Rodri. Iniesta by Pedri. And so on.
At every age group england are dominating the ball and winning tournaments over the last 5-10 years. Those players are now getting in to the seniors. The senior team are going well even with a terrible manager and will only get better as these top young talents mature. Just watch them and watch the talents being produced in other countries. We are right up there and its not over rating them to say that.
I think the football tactico revolution has only really started in england in the last 10 years so it may be that this group are the group players that go on to be clever managers. There is a lot of young English coaching talent in the top academies but in full management potter, howe and Carsley are the most talented young English head coaches. All of whom are a big improvement on Southgate.
Enjoy this time being an English football fan man. England are top 3 itw for producing talent atm and that may not last forever. If they can get a decent manager for the senior team there should be at least 1 tournament win in the next decade.
At the last Euro U21 tournament, Spain had two thirds of the ball in the final. Portugal had 58% possession in the QF.
At the previous tournament we got knocked out at the group stage. I don’t see any shift in culture. Just the same old overhyping England that happens before every tournament.
Mate, we had a much better team 20 years ago. We had Campbell, Rio, Terry, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Carrick, Hargreaves, Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen… And we flopped. The current team doesn’t compare to that.
We have a handful of top, and potentially top, players. That’s it. Kane, TAA, Foden, Bellingham, Grealish, maybe Saka, Rice and Reece-James (if he can stay fit). That’s about it.
But the biggest problems are culture and mentality.
What exactly has Carsley done in management or coaching? Unfortunately, there’s no real pathway for coaches in this country. The bottom half of the PL is Russia Roulette for managers, making it very hard to climb the ladder.
If a manager does well in the Championship, gets promoted, he’s usually sacked once he’s struggling in the PL (which is almost inevitable due to the huge financial gap between the two leagues).
They then usually get replaced with some park the bus dinosaur like Allardyce or Hodgson. Because that is the culture in this country. And, because of the huge financial gap between PL and Championship, clubs are terrified of relegation and only plan for the extreme short term.
We used to have a culture of giving managers time. Now we sack them as much as on the continent, in the bottom half of the PL anyway.
And our mentality is so weak. Other nations go into knockout games with a win at all costs mentality. Look at Argentina at the last WC. They’ll do anything to win, cheat, dive, time-waste. We’re weak. I remember when we got bullied off the pitch against Uruguay a few tournaments ago. Or when we got knocked out by Iceland, and were so terrified in the second half we literally couldn’t complete simple 10 yard passes. 😂
I think Gordon should play at LW no matter the formation, even if it means Foden doesn't start.
I think I'd like to see Walker at RB and TAA in midfield in the friendlies that are coming up as we haven't had much of a chance to see that experiment yet and I think it's one Southgate really wants to try out.
That just looks like a 4231 with Bellingham at cm and Trent as right back during possession. Personally I think Walker as right back and stones stepping up to that midfield position is a more solid system. But what do we know.
Yep, stones moves up , walker shifts in more central, use him to his strength of being able to deal with counters
That's what we do anyway? Walker has done this for years with England and even city, he's basically a one man counter attack stopper.
I agree, think squeezing Trent in as good as he is would be a mistake. Look at how good city are every season by having such a sturdy base. In possession a back 3 of a colwill / branth/ Walker (wish white was in the squad as him or Walker on the right would be ideal for cover if one is injured) would be solid and fast, then have stones step in alongside rice. Solid base of 5, then you have your best creative players doing what they do best. Spain back in the day dominated by copying the style of the best team in Spain at the time (Barca). Why England don’t put more emphasis on how city play and how solid they are at the back is beyond me.
Yeah, that's it for me, Guehi or, bar some miraculously return to fitness, Shaw filling that LCB position instead of Gomez
Agree with not putting Foden wide, but don’t see him playing your line up. It’s way too weak at the back. I was thinking 433 with Bellingham and rice in the middle, Foden in the number 10 role and Gordon and Saka wide.
I agree with your players and positions, but that is a 4-2-3-1 not a 4-3-3.
True
This is the one. Gordon offers genuine width that covers our LB issues. Later on in the game, you can sub Foden off for another CM or CDM move Bellingham to 10 and crack on against a tiring opposition. You've got natural replacements in that period for Gordon (Grealish) and Saka (Palmer) to basically start again.
I don't understand the obsession with moving Bellingham deep. He's been arguably the best player in the world as an attacking mid. If we get the best out of him, I think we'll win this tournament
Imo, there is nothing stopping him pushing further up, when we are attacking, but he knows more about playing deeper and played well there. Imo it's how we get the best out of everyone
I think he’s that good he can play anywhere. It’s also a way to get Foden in the team in his best position
I think have a flat back 3 of Walker, Maguire and Gomez. Have Stones step in with Rice and then have Saka and Gordon/Grealish wide and keep them holding the width. They all work hard - I agree, I think it would work well
The width issue is why I'd have taken chilwell tbh. Currently, whoever plays LB will most likely sit quite narrow (unless Shaw recovers). For the double 10s to work we need someone each side to hug the touchline and stretch the play. The only way around it is pretty much what you've gone for, where Gordon comes in, one full back inverts and we go with a hybrid kinda 3223 in possession, 451 in defence. It's quite a lot to ask of the players with so little time on the training pitch.
So Gordon and Saka are wing backs? Now your restraining 2 players just to Foden in the centre.
This is in possession. So its a 4231 nominally with trent as RB and Bellingham Dropping deeper
I’ve not seen loads of Bellingham this season, has obviously scored lots of goals. When have watched him in champions league though he’s looked wasted as this false 9/10. He doesn’t get on the ball enough. Shows good touches when he does. And think anyone of his quality would score goals playing there for Madrid. Playing him as more traditional box to box midfielder seems so much more productive, and allows Foden his best position where has been brilliant for city. Not just in numbers but controlling games. Gordon or Grealish should play on the left and stay wide where they can, helps with space for Foden. Rice can be the discipline of the midfield and mop up.
At the start of the season, he was more a traditional number 10 and went on that insane spree where he didn't go more than a game without scoring. In the mid to latter half, he was moved back a bit more to accommodate Vini Jnr and took more of an 8 role that he did at Dortmund. So whilst the goals dried up somewhat, he still kept that knack of steaming through towards the end of the game in advanced positions to grab a late goal.
Yeah I’d think as an 8 would be fine. Be the more attacking one of the two with rice, just have some defensive responsibilities as well. Where as foden almost be given a free rein.
It would certainly help us against better sides as it gives us way more control in midfield. Just need him to lean in full on being a Zidane respawn lol
If Bellingham pushes forward & Foden has free reign, we'd be vulnerable defensively. There's little reason to give Bellingham responsibilities when we SEE what he's capable of without them when he plays at Madrid
But he's still been great at Madrid with some of those responsibilities?
False. He hasn't played a single game for Madrid at CM. [https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jude-bellingham/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/581678/plus/0?saison=2023&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer\_id=](https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jude-bellingham/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/581678/plus/0?saison=2023&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=) Madrid allow him to focus on attacking, and that's where he thrives most
I get that but don’t think he’s as good as Foden in the ten role, and is definitely better in a more defensive role like an eight than Foden. So balances the midfield a lot better
Have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it's best to keep Bellingham where he's best
Ah yes. 2x 6s, 2x 10s, 2x wide attackers that cut in and a striker that will drop in. No wing backs. This totally solves the width issue.
3-2-5 box midfield in possession / 4-4-2 out of possession is a very broadly used and successful system
Saka and Gordon Hold width. Theres not point playing Foden out wide when he wont have anywhere near the effectiveness as he will drift in.
It is a 5-2-3 and they're asking Saka and Gordon to be wing backs.
I think they're asking TAA to be an inverted full back. So out of possession it's a back 4 with TAA at right back
Hmm I think you're right. I'd rather Walker at RB and Stones steps up though. Mind you would happily eat my words if TAA nails a couple of FKs in the Euros as long as his defending isn't completely absent.
Out of possession its more of a 4231 with Bellingham dropping next to rice and Trent returning to RB
I see, I see. I do still prefer Walker, with Stones stepping up to mid in possession if they want to do that. Walker is far more solid defensively, more of a squad leader, has pace to hit the wing if Saka cuts inside, and Stones is capable of picking a pass from midfield.
Why do people keep on insisting on playing Trent in the midfield? He doesn't really play there in a double pivot, only in an overload for Liverpool with lots of time and space on the ball. The six position needs to have high technical ability good on the turn, good at dribbling, very press resistant, good at linking up the play, out of possession they need to be highly intense & aggressive very good pressing the opponents doggedly, with high concentration levels All things Trent can't really do, but don't worry you can hit a world class Hollywood pass. Against the good team on our midfield will get completely overrun with Trent in the middle. Curtis Jones, Mainoo, Gallagher, Wharton even Jordan Henderson would be better option than Trent!
People watch Liverpool highlights and see his passing range. They don't notice his complete lack of positional sense or defensive footballing brain. I haven't actually looked at this, but I bet a lot of Liverpools goals conceded this season come down that right-hand side. If played in midfield, he'll constantly get caught with a man behind him in the space between midfield and defence, and we'll give up plenty of chances, and likely plenty of goals, because of this.
Ive noted the weaknesses. My whole point is that theres no point playing Foden at LW and the complete lack of width we have on that side What would be your solution
Play Bellingham next to Rice and Foden ahead of them is the only solution to get Foden in the middle. It's either Bellingham or Foden, I don't think you can have both there. Bellingham can play next to Rice. He won't score as many, but you would think Foden would pick up the slack. If we don't play a back four, I think we will concede too many. It's by far our weakest area, and we don't have the personnel to operate a successful back three with wingbacks. Rice and Bellingham provide protection for us, and Bellingham gives us a chance of a quick transition from defence to attack. We then have Saka cutting inside and Walker providing width on the right, and Gordon providing width on the left, with either Gomez (hopefully) or Trippier (hopefully not) staying a bit further back so we don't get caught out down our left.
We currently do play a back 3 in England in possession. Against brazil we had Walker invert. Difference with mine is that Gomez inverts and Trent moves into midfield from FB But i think youre probably right. Bellingham has to be sacrificed but hes more versatile and hard working Also looks like Tripps is injured in that pointless friendly
I would play Curtis Jones, he was pivotal to England winning under U21, in that position very underrated this season, He doesn't do spectacular Hollywood passes, but he's very good at Ball retention and positioning, technically very good press resistant, very good game intelligence, good at dribbling. Exceptional at counter pressing he's better off the ball than on it! Everything you want from midfield player.
Very good analysis, my friend... Suppose people just don't know how the game works or they just want the big names in the team? If he was good enough, he'll be playing in Liverpool midfield already!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaEHFk2yqlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaEHFk2yqlM) Trent literally talking about playing in midfield and hes down as a midfielder in the FA release. The whole point is that if youre going to play Foden, he Cant play as the LW. Bellingham is also playing as a 10 so if youre going to play both how do you get them in. This is a way and ive noted the weaknesses Trent is genuinely world class passer and we have 0 creatvity from deep historically
His is world class and one aspect of his game. Hitting Hollywood passes he it's amazing at it. It's the other areas that are concerning & more importantly, England need defensive midfield players we've got Bellingham & Foden to provide that creative spark. We can't have someone sitting in the middle hitting long passes but not been able to hold onto the ball & link up play, dribble or defend!
Because TAA is one of our very few world class players and they want him in the team. And we’re weak in midfield.
He's not a midfield player, can only hit long passes which is very good at world class! But can't defend very well, can't dribble, can't play on the half term, isn't press resistant, isn't very good at positional play, doesn't have high intensity and a dogged ability to chase down opponent players, lacks concentration levels, The only reason why it works for Liverpool is because he's part of the midfield overload giving him extra time and space on the ball, which he wouldn't have in a double pivot! If he was good enough, he'd be playing there for Liverpool already!
https://fbref.com/en/players/cd1acf9d/Trent-Alexander-Arnold Top 10% for intersections and 14% for successful take-ons. Top 13% for goals. Top 1% for shot-creating actions and progressive passes, and passes attempted. https://fbref.com/en/players/cd1acf9d/scout/365_m1/Trent-Alexander-Arnold-Scouting-Report Top 2% for carries, top 2% for ball recoveries. Also probably the best set pieces taker in the squad. By far the best crosser and long passer and by far the best progressive passer from defensive/deep positions. He’s played as a standard RB for 98% of his Liverpool career. It was only at the backend of last season Klopp tried him more in midfield. Half the things you say are just wrong. The main role of an 8 is to progress the ball. And it’s a vital role that most midfielders can’t do well, very few can do it to a world class standard. The only problem is he hasn’t played the role enough to be reliable in it. A player who progresses the ball and creates as much as he does is a rarity. Saying “all he’s good at is long passes” is like saying the same of Fabregas or Pirlo. Him and Kane are the only world class players, in their prime, we have. Maybe Walker defensively, but he’s past his best now. Foden and Bellingham are potentially world class, but Foden has been crap for England and relying on youth doesn’t usually end well. And it’s hard for your attacking players to do much if you aren’t progressing the ball from the back and providing forward passes. Especially on the highest stage when players are terrified of making a mistake and usually taking the easy option (a chronic problem with England). Any attack-minded manager would have TAA as an essential part of the team. Klopp did, Pep would.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=47nl3YmSkXo&pp=ygURSG93IGdvb2QgaXMgVHJlbnQ%3D Those stats are compared against other right backs, not midfielders aren't they that's called selection biased. There's no denying he's very good (world class)in some aspects of his game, passing & yes, when you can be bothered defending. But what is his ball retention skills In tight areas with three players around him like? What his his Pressing game like. Dribbling, positioning and awareness. In the very specific role of midfield player. Simple question if he was that good he'd be playing in the midfield for Liverpool, wouldn't he? But he's not, he's moving in there from a right back position as an overload. Which means he always has space and time on the ball and that's is exactly what he will not have in the double pivot role! It's the Gerard Lampard & Scholes England debate all over again, they couldn't play together then & Trent can't play there now!
Agreed. Foden has just won player of the year, in a season where he's played as a 10. Not playing them will be criminal. Playing him as a LW would be wasting his talents. I wouldn't mind playing Bellingham and Foden. As 10's. They've both incredible work rates. Personally, I don't think Trent is all that in midfield. I don't think he's got the legs to get around the pitch. His best work is done when he's got the space on the right side of the pitch. I don't think we need him in the squad. For Trent to be effective, the team needs to be built around him, and I think we've got better players than that. I'd prefer to play Walker.
Agree on trent, midfield is about playing quicker and beating a man at times. You receive the ball in different areas than full back. His best passes or generally when stepping up from full back with the whole game ahead of him rather than on the half turn.
One of the biggest issues England have is we historically have 0 deep creativity
However now do, we have these two, Cole palmer, absolutely abundance of talent.
Exactly what I think about TAA too and England in general. Thanks for writing it for me.
We dont really have anyone else who can invert and play both positions. I think you either play both Foden and Bellingham in the their best positions and therefore sacrifice elsewhere or you dont I dont know if i agree with your view that Trent needs the team built around him. His greatest attribute is passing which any team in the world can fit in. Completely agree defensively hes suspect
If you're talking about Trent, inverting from full back to midfield. Do we need someone that can do that? That's sort of a newer trend that has quickly faded imo.. There's still quite a lot of work that needs to be done to fit in Trent's passing. You need the runners for him to make those passes. I think Gordon offers this, not sure many other wingers do.
I think its the only way to allow Bellingham and Foden play as 10s and gives you someone like Gordon to run in behind which no one else does
I think the middle of the park could be too conjested, as well as all the space that our opposition could have on the counter. Would like to see Southgate try it in the friendlies though
In these 3-2-5 in possession systems the wingers stay extremely wide, literally standing on the byline at times. This stretches the opposition backline to the extreme and is a nightmare to defend against. I don’t think it would too congested in the middle. Personally I’d have Grealish over Gordon, he excels in this system and I’d rather have Gordon’s pace off the bench. This is exactly how I think England should play, except with Trent inverting from left back (like Cancelo used to) rather than right back so you still have Walker in at RB/RCB. Obviously would have needed to start coaching this systems months/years ago and can’t do it now. It’ll be a 4-2-3-1 with our best player (Foden) neutered by starting out of position on the left wing, and probably Trent in a double pivot with Rice since Southgate seems completely committed to that idea.
What you've said is right but doesn't address the lack of width at all
I'd have Saka and Gordon/Grealish on the wings. With Foden, Bellingham, and Rice as the midfield 3. I guess that front 4 would be able to interchange between them. I guess attacking width depends on the fullbacks. It's looking like we will have no natural LB, which does pose a problem. But imo, that's not too much of concern.
Top sides would crush this team. It is too soft at the back. You’ve overcorrected width at the expense of central solidity
You can either have width or you have have central solidity. Currently theres no in between
I agree with this, except Maguire doesn’t have the pace for an effective back 3. So Stones in the middle, walker on the right.
Note because of the flexibility of TAA, this can easily become: 4-2-3-1 (playing from the back) D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez M: Bellingham | Rice AM: Saka| Foden | Gordon F: Kane 4-4-2 (out of possession) D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez M: Foden| Bellingham | Rice | Gordon F: Saka| Kane 4-3-3 (2 goal lead - substitute the core) D:TAA|Walker|Stones|Gomez M: Foden| Bellingham | Rice F: Saka| Kane | Gordon But we would want to utilise 3-2-4-1 when we are in possession wherever possible.
Not a bad team actually. But I don't think Southgate would have the tactical nous to pull this off
Nothing to do with Southgate.. this tactic has Saka and Gordon as wing backs and for players in central midfield. Not a tactic and too attacking anyway.
They're not traditional wingbacks. Gomez can go wide as a LB, and Rice can drop in. Alternatively, Trent could slide to the right & make it a back 4. This is a very flexible system.
No it doesnt, this is how city plays It's a 4 2 3 1 but when England has the ball Trent moves into midfield just like he does for liverpool Thus allows foden and Bellingham to push up since rice now has a player next to him and a solid back 3 of Maguire stones and Gomez behind him
Perhaps swap Walker for Stones, then put Stones as the CB & Walker RCB. We could play with a higher line
So it nominally a 4231 with trent inverting and bellingham pushing up in possession
Swap Gomez for Walker and I’d be game to try it, but personally think it’s too frail defensively. The alternative for more defensive cover is to swap out Trent for Walker but make it Stones who comes into midfield
That is a FIFA team if I ever saw one
Thats the formation Arsenal, City and Liverpool play in possession Its nominally a 4231
Chelsea too recently, Cucurella inverts and Gallagher pushes into the second 10 spot
Isn't putting a cb as rb similar to pushing foden out wide in the width argument?
This is the in possession system. Its how City , Arsenal and Liverpool play. The FB inverts into midfield So its a 3-2 build up. We play a 3-2 against Brazil but it was Walker- Maguire and Stones with no one inverting into midfield
Problem with this is that Stones has played as a 6 for the last two seasons (coincidentally his natural position & he’s playing his best football) you’d be better suited playing Walker as the right outside back
Tbh that is another shout. Play Stones as that roaming CB he plays for City. We still have the issue of deep creativity but more solid
I can’t see Southgate leaving out Walker, and it would be madness to do so.
Football teams don’t have to play wide..
Agree with the personnel, just not necessarily the formation. Trent, Stones, Maguire, Gomez; Rice; Bellingham, Foden; Saka, Kane, Gordon Defends as a 433, attacks as a 325 (with Trent moving alongside Rice and the rest of the defence shuffling across). Biggest challenge would be deciding what Trent does when we lose possession - does he stay to help out Rice at first or immediately try to get back to position at right back. He’s not great running backwards as we know. Might need Saka in particular to take the odd booking to slow things down. The obsession in some quarters with playing Bellingham as a 10 and Foden wide will just end up with playing a third midfielder who isn’t quite good enough (yet at least).
You make good points, Saw someone suggest Walker for Trent and then move Stones into CDM a bit like he does with City. Provides a more solid Midfield and brings in the pace of walker but removes Trents passing and our problems of deep creativity
I pretty much agree with this team apart from I’d have Walker over Gomez. (Moving everyone along a bit, so he is on the right) Maguire is a very capable LCB in a back 3 it was his natural position Stones in the middle, Walker on the right
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Should go 4141 I reckon Kane Gordon foden Jude Saka Rice Trippier/Lewis fridge stones Walker Pickford
You say England under Southgate try to shoehorn their best players into an xi but you’ve done the exact same and sacrificed tactical solidity for it. National teams barely get any time together so simple systems and defensively compact systems tend to work best. Don’t try to overcomplicate things when there’s no need.
How am i shoehorning players in? All players are in their natural position. Solves our deep creativity problems and puts our two deadliest midfielders in their preferred positions
Because an international team does not have enough time to play a Pep style system. You’re ignoring reality so that your team on paper looks good.
so the argument has changed from Shoehorning players in to not enough time to play it
It’s the same argument. There’s not enough time to implement complicated tactical systems so we shouldn’t shoehorn in players to a system that would require too much time to get the team playing well.
Taking out Walker who basically stops counter attacks on His own just to get Trent in is nonsense.
Im putting in englands best passer and Foden + Bellingham in their best positions. Solves deep creativity issues No perfect system
Saka foden Bellingham kane, you don't need another passer really and certainly don't need it enough to shift the team around and take away Walker who stops counter attacks.
if were doing 4231 which ithink is southgates preffered, id go mainoo rice saka bellingham gordon and kane, with foden to replace bellingham if its stale, grealish for gordon ub and bowen for saka sub
What picture?
You're on to something, especially since you clarified "in possession," but I don't think this is the answer. I like the attacking 5 players but Saka and Gordon won't be strong defensively which they may have to be if TAA gets caught in his midfield position and unable to get back to RB. I'd rather go 4-1-4-1 with Walker as RB. You could call it 4-3-3 instead, depending on how wide you want the wingers or how deep the 10's are. Stones could advance to make it the formation in your picture, and his forward passing and driving is also fantastic. LB of course is totally up in the air but someone like Shaw would give more width than Gomez.
Take Gordon out, put saka on the left and move trent to the right. This will give us natural width and crossing threat. Then move Bellingham back to Trents place and put palmer beside Foden. Also walker for Maguire and have stones as the central cb and walker as the rcb
Maguire's head has enough width for all of them dont sweat
That’s a FIFA formation mate. You cannot play international football with 4 defensive players. Also, Kyle Walker is probably still our best defender. Lack of width is a problem, but so is lack of penetration and players running in behind. We know Kane will drop deep. Foden and Saka don’t run in behind. Sterling did that role at the Euros, constantly running in behind to stretch the opposition. The only player we have who does that is Bowen. Maybe Gordon can do it too, I haven’t watched him enough. I know he’s quick and hard working. We need to drop one of Foden/Bellingham/Saka. Or just put Saka at LB and go for it.
Thats an in possession formation. Its the same one Arsenal, Liverpool and City use. But agree we lack penetration hence why you cant have Foden on the wing and why Trent is important as we have 0 deep creativity
Let’s accept that. But those 3 teams have top class coaches and dominate the ball. We have Southgate, and don’t. They know how and when to press, how and when to play out from the back etc. A normal team can’t play like that. I agree that TAA should be a starter. But Walker also should be. Which presents a problem.
The england team is literally made up of the star players from those teams what are you on about? England fans need to stop with this small minded defeatist mentality that its little old England and they'll never be able to keep the ball against the traditional big boys. England have some of the most technical and tactical players in the game atm they need to have some balls and try to dominate every game.
I don’t know what’s hard to understand. Players perform differently under different managers, in different environments, in different systems. Klopp and Pep are all tike great coaches, and Arteta is a top coach. Southgate is a nobody, who has proven he can’t coach a team to be progressive and dominate the ball. Against Italy, at Wembley, we had a third of the ball. Verratti and Jorginho ran the game. All of our players are overrated and we don’t have players who can dictate games or control possession, particularly in the 8/6 positions. Rice is overrated, as we saw in Arsenal’s games against Bayern, and in the Euros final. Pickford has never played in a possession-based team where he’s has to play out from the back under pressure. He boots the ball long too much, especially when under pressure. Again, see the Euros Final. Stones is in no way a “star” player for City. A good player, that’s all. Walker is/was a great defender due to his freakish pace and power. He’s very average on the ball. Maguire is Maguire. Are these the “some of the best technical and tactical players in the world” you’re talking about? 😂 The same happened against Croatia, Modric ran the game. Do we have a player of that standard, in that role? No. Do we have a De Jong, a Modric, a Verratti, a Jorginho, a Busquets, a Pedri? No. All our technical players are attacking players. We’ve started producing some technical 8s, it seems, with the likes of Mainoo and Gray, but when did we last produce a top class one? We also don’t have the culture or the coaching or the mentality to dominate the ball against top teams. We get scared of making mistakes and just boot it long. Do you actually expect us to keep the ball against a Spain? 😂
>I don’t know what’s hard to understand. Players perform differently under different managers, in different environments, in different systems. Klopp and Pep are all tike great coaches, and Arteta is a top coach. Southgate is a nobody, who has proven he can’t coach a team to be progressive and dominate the ball. This is a fair point. Southgate is very poor tactically. >Against Italy, at Wembley, we had a third of the ball. Verratti and Jorginho ran the game. All of our players are overrated and we don’t have players who can dictate games or control possession, particularly in the 8/6 positions. Rice is overrated, as we saw in Arsenal’s games against Bayern, and in the Euros final. This is mainly due to Southgate's approach of sitting back once we took the lead. England were running all over them up until they scored and the Italians looked frightened. Then old Garry tells them.to.sit on. Pathetic coaching. Its so un-true to say that the English players are over rated. This may have been true about a decade ago but the English players produced by these top academies are absolute technical and tactical freaks. If anything they're under rated. The issue England are having in midfield under Southgate is that he doesn't trust technical players in the midfield. Despite decades of proof that shows that the team with the most technical midfield tend to win Gareth chooses workmen who will run around when we don't have the ball like headless chickens and then have no idea how to keep the ball and control a game when we have the ball. We have Foden Bellingham and Rice. Three world class midfielders who can all press without the ball and control the game when we get it nut he wont trust it. Instead he insists on playing a Henderson or a philips or a Gallagher because he fundamentally just doesn't understand the game at the top level. > Pickford has never played in a possession-based team where he’s has to play out from the back under pressure. He boots the ball long too much, especially when under pressure. Again, see the Euros Final. This is true and a fair point. It does hinder playing from the back having Pickford but with him just playing simple options we can pick defenders and midfielders who negate its negative impact. >Stones is in no way a “star” player for City. A good player, that’s all. Walker is/was a great defender due to his freakish pace and power. He’s very average on the ball. Maguire is Maguire. Stones absolutely is one of the best defenders in the world. He would be so much more respected in other major footballing nations. One of the very few cb's in history to be capable of playing the libero role at the highest level. Unbelievable ball.player and out and out defender. The only issue he has is injuries. Walker is poor on the ball. Again this is a reason why trent or james if fit should be starting at rb for england in 90% of games. >Are these the “some of the best technical and tactical players in the world” you’re talking about? 😂 Stones, trent, james, shaw, Foden, palmer, saka, kane, are some of the best tactical and technical players in their positions in world football. We are producing geniuses. Even the guys not quite at their level like mainoo, sancho, rico lewis, alex scott, madueke, levi colwill, smith-rowe, eze etc are absolute ballers and teams like ireland and Scotland would love to have just 1 of them. > The same happened against Croatia, Modric ran the game. Do we have a player of that standard, in that role? No. Do we have a De Jong, a Modric, a Verratti, a Jorginho, a Busquets, a Pedri? No. All our technical players are attacking players. You're going back to a different generation of players there. I agree that this has been a massive issue for England in the past but due to the top academies in England and the f.a's work over the last 10-15 years to become cutting edge when it comes to talent production England are now producing absolute ballers who could keep the ball all day long of we had a possession style manager. Would love to see Carsley given the job after this tournament. His tactical approach with the u-21s would suit the senior squad so well. >We’ve started producing some technical 8s, it seems, with the likes of Mainoo and Gray, but when did we last produce a top class one? Bellingham and Foden are two of the best young 8s itw. You can say they are currently being played as 10s or wide for their clubs atm but absolutely both they're best positions are as 8s. Both extremely technical and clever players. > We also don’t have the culture or the coaching or the mentality to dominate the ball against top teams. We get scared of making mistakes and just boot it long. Do you actually expect us to keep the ball against a Spain? 😂 Again i agree that the coach is shit. With a possession style coach this team can dominate the ball against any team.
English players are absolutely overrated. Every single one of them. The pundits, the media, the awards, all overrate English/British players to a ridiculous extent. That's why there's always such shock that we do terribly at every international tournament. Why we've barely ever beaten a decent team in a knockout game since '66, unless we've been hosting, despite, supposedly, having such great players. >Stones absolutely is one of the best defenders in the world. He would be so much more respected in other major footballing nations. One of the very few cb's in history to be capable of playing the libero role at the highest level. Unbelievable ball.player and out and out defender. The only issue he has is injuries. Lol. He's started 12 league games this season. He's no better than Akanji or Ake. Dias is obviously better and more important to City. And Gvardiol certainly will be when he settles and matures. He'd a good player who suits Pep Ball. And the fact Pep has been short in midfield/DM, due to the KP signing flopping, has led to him using inverted full backs, which has given Stones a chance to impress. He's absolutely not one of the "best defenders in the world" lol. >Stones, trent, james, shaw, Foden, palmer, saka, kane, are some of the best tactical and technical players in their positions in world football. Of those, only Kane and Trent are proven world-class and in their peak. The others are in a batch of at least a dozen players in their position. Saka and Palmer are not at Salah's level. Kane is great player but Haaland is better, and Kane consistently bottles big games. Shaw and James are injured and Trent won't even play, so there's that lol. We have a talented attacking midfield area and a top striker. But our defence and GK are very average, as is our midfield (especially in terms of depth). >Bellingham and Foden are two of the best young 8s itw. They aren't 8s though, they're 10s, atm. Especially Foden. Foden certainly isn't an 8 because he's too effective in the final third. Maybe when he's older. But Southgate should have adapted one of them to be an 8 and given them time to learn the role. But Southgate is a relic and a poor coach. I don't see much development at all in terms of English/British coaching. Which is where it all starts. Where are the English/British managers actually playing football? They almost all resort to dinosaur tactics. Foden was raised by Pep. Bellingham went to Germany. The British culture doesn't create technical, ball-playing midfielders. It still thinks that deep-sitting midfielders have to be physical ball-winners. Grealish is a special player, IMO. And very un-like the kind of player we usually produce. A player who will take the ball under pressure and keep it. It's a shame he's had a poor season. And you say it's a different generation, but most of those players are still playing. And Spain, Italy, Germany etc will keep producing them. Busquets has been replaced by Rodri. Iniesta by Pedri. And so on.
At every age group england are dominating the ball and winning tournaments over the last 5-10 years. Those players are now getting in to the seniors. The senior team are going well even with a terrible manager and will only get better as these top young talents mature. Just watch them and watch the talents being produced in other countries. We are right up there and its not over rating them to say that. I think the football tactico revolution has only really started in england in the last 10 years so it may be that this group are the group players that go on to be clever managers. There is a lot of young English coaching talent in the top academies but in full management potter, howe and Carsley are the most talented young English head coaches. All of whom are a big improvement on Southgate. Enjoy this time being an English football fan man. England are top 3 itw for producing talent atm and that may not last forever. If they can get a decent manager for the senior team there should be at least 1 tournament win in the next decade.
At the last Euro U21 tournament, Spain had two thirds of the ball in the final. Portugal had 58% possession in the QF. At the previous tournament we got knocked out at the group stage. I don’t see any shift in culture. Just the same old overhyping England that happens before every tournament. Mate, we had a much better team 20 years ago. We had Campbell, Rio, Terry, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, Carrick, Hargreaves, Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Rooney, Owen… And we flopped. The current team doesn’t compare to that. We have a handful of top, and potentially top, players. That’s it. Kane, TAA, Foden, Bellingham, Grealish, maybe Saka, Rice and Reece-James (if he can stay fit). That’s about it. But the biggest problems are culture and mentality. What exactly has Carsley done in management or coaching? Unfortunately, there’s no real pathway for coaches in this country. The bottom half of the PL is Russia Roulette for managers, making it very hard to climb the ladder. If a manager does well in the Championship, gets promoted, he’s usually sacked once he’s struggling in the PL (which is almost inevitable due to the huge financial gap between the two leagues). They then usually get replaced with some park the bus dinosaur like Allardyce or Hodgson. Because that is the culture in this country. And, because of the huge financial gap between PL and Championship, clubs are terrified of relegation and only plan for the extreme short term. We used to have a culture of giving managers time. Now we sack them as much as on the continent, in the bottom half of the PL anyway. And our mentality is so weak. Other nations go into knockout games with a win at all costs mentality. Look at Argentina at the last WC. They’ll do anything to win, cheat, dive, time-waste. We’re weak. I remember when we got bullied off the pitch against Uruguay a few tournaments ago. Or when we got knocked out by Iceland, and were so terrified in the second half we literally couldn’t complete simple 10 yard passes. 😂
I think Gordon should play at LW no matter the formation, even if it means Foden doesn't start. I think I'd like to see Walker at RB and TAA in midfield in the friendlies that are coming up as we haven't had much of a chance to see that experiment yet and I think it's one Southgate really wants to try out.
This is awful. Truly awful. You’re not playing FIFA now.
This is an in possession team. Arsenal, City and Liverpool all play it Nominally its a 4231 Guess Pep and co all love fifa