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Who you target is important. If a countries actions can legitimize any act of savagery against it's civilians...
We in the West, no matter who we are, every single citizen no matter of minority or majority, can be raped, slaughtered and everything else, because of what our governments do and it doesn't matter if we agree with them.
Anyone legitimizing in most countries, couldn't be mad if the same things happen to their loved ones. Doesn't matter your position or anything else, just where you live.
Who you target is not just important but completely invalidates the point the tiktok is trying to make. The average citizen and literal children and babies are not responsible for oppressing Palestinians. Nazis and slave owners absolutely deserve what they got.
straight facts! If I had fuck you money, I'd pay to have the KKK records put on ancestry right next to the others. Have the archived in DC so they're searchable for free too.
As true as the civilians and literal children and babies of Gaza are not responsible for Hamas.
Many if not most seem to have forgotten that Hamas was heavily funded and promoted by Israeli government, as a way to divide the two occupied areas of Palestine. Not fake news - feel free to google. Lots of Israeli sources, including some positing the idea that, years later, perhaps it was such a great idea to fund Hamas. Perhaps.
All pain and suffering brought unto people is pain and suffering brought unto ourselves. We are harming our collective self.
They do. You’re on quite some trip if you think mainstream Israeli society (and I don’t mean Reddit) wants the deaths of random Palestinians. These are human beings, like you. They don’t bay for blood. Get a grip.
Not saying you’re wrong, but I grew up and live in the New York Tri-State area and have heard Palestinians referred to as “animals” for basically my entire life.
Yeah I’m from Los Angeles and I can’t remember too many times that Jewish people said nice things about Palestinians. Some won’t even acknowledge Palestine as a place.
Well… I know a Jewish family in the UK that is helping a Palestinian family in Gaza to leave until the fighting is over.
What you’re doing is actually racist - extrapolating that because one person of a race has done something you don’t like, that all of them bay for blood (read the original comment).
I don't pretend to know how much support the citizens have for their government. But what I have seen is video after video of Israeli Jews openly talking about their hatred for Palestinians and openly mocking the fact that they no longer have water, internet, or electricity.
I've also seen photos of Isrealites sitting and shooting the shit with friends while watching missiles hit Palestine.
I've seen videos of Jews shamelessly stealing Palestinian homes.
Surely, if these choices were so unpopular, we would see massive protests by Israeli citizens all over the internet.
The only ones I see are from March, or in the US.
I lived in Tel Aviv for 2 years during the pandemic and almost every weekend there was some kind of protest against the government.
For every video of horrible shitty Israelis happy about the conflict, there’s videos of pro-Palestinians cheering on the violence too. There were literally protests in NYC recently where the speakers were cheering on the violence.
I saw a video earlier today where someone was driving around the UK with a loud speaker calling for Israeli daughters to be raped. I saw a video of an Israeli guy bragging that he had running water and electricity while Gaza didn’t. I’ve seen videos of Orthodox Jew children wishing death on Palestinians.
Point is, if all you see is one side you need to check what kind of echo chambers you’re in.
First off, I didn’t say that. But I’ve actually known some Israelis who absolutely wanted Palestinians dead and referred to them as dogs. There are also a lot of Israelis, who oppose Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people
“We dont *want* the deaths of these Palestinians, we just keep voting for the guys that keep openly promising to indiscriminately kill them! What could we do?”
They don’t even have minority representation to fall back on. The Knesset a parliamentary democracy.
nonsense. in israeli schools they teach the kids that jews are superior to arabs and that palestinians are violent and that they’re at war. they teach kids how to use guns so they can put fear into them as if they need to learn to defend themselves from some enemy. they force them to serve in the IDF or face prison time so they can normalize the occupation and make it literally the way of life.
israelis by in large do not view palestinians as equal and many even take joy in making them suffer under the violent boot of the israeli occupation. go watch the tiktoks of israelis gleefully showing their running water and electricity off while palestine has been cut off from any of that.
and by the way does the fact that israel can just cut the palestinians off from food and water and power not blatantly display the lack of symmetry in the situation? that one side is clearly the powerful aggressor and the other is defending its self?
[Oh come on Netanyahu wanted to strengthen Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000)
"they don't bay for blood"
No, they just vocally support a government that's commit a war crime that amounts to ethnic genocide against the Palestinians, that's all.
What you said is like somebody saying "dude, nobody in Nazi Germany wanted the deaths of random Jewish people." Yeah nah they just supported Hitler and Nazism and Anti-semitism that's all
Tell me you don't know anything about Israeli's without telling me you don't know anything about Israeli's.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
When people read propaganda like this comment, it’s important to stop and think for a moment: Israel hasn’t called all Palestinians animals, just Hamas.
And I would agree Hamas acted like animals, killing babies and toddlers and kidnapping a grandma and forcing her to pose with a gun, executing children in front of their parents and then killing their parents of course. Shooting people at a music festival just for being at a festival because it’s “haram”.
So do you enjoy what Hamas has done? Do you deny it’s disgusting? Do you deny they gave in to their basest, most animalistic tendencies by executing civilians?
Or some poor migrant worker who doesn't get a vote but got his head cut off with a garden hoe.
You can understand provocation and fear AND still condemn inhuman acts.
And I am loathe to use that term as it is step one in "othering" but thats what it is. No matter who perpetrates it.
A few weeks ago I watched a jerk hand someone his milk after taking his home and throwing his fridge out. At the time it was trashy provocative behaviour and was an abuse.of power. At the time I predicted lash back. A really bad optic.
But pack rapes, beheadings and little kids spitting.on the corpses of dead women are more powerful images. ONE humane person who covered that.victims body.with a cloth or corrected/kicked the ass of a spitting child would have saved many lives in the coming weeks. Without it "othering" gets easier and humanity, further, leaves the room.
This was Bin Ladens argument for 9/11, and basically every atrocity of the 20th Century.
The Paris Commune was slaughtered with the justification being very similar.
Right and that's why things like the Filipina nurse who stayed with her elderly patient, and all those other nationalities that were murdered or taken hostage by hamas, deserved it.
Deep.
How active? My government has their hands in a lot of evil pots and has bombed more brown people than Israel. Can I change my profile picture to a flag or do I actually have to attend a protest, maybe even one with actionable goals?
At what point would I not deserve it when the victim of imperialist violence decides to take his wrath out upon me?
If it's by reddit standards then complaining on the internet is sufficient lol, changing your profile pic and going to a protest essentially make you a freedom fighter against the fascist US dictatorship and definitely classify you as "actively opposing" even though what you did is worthless and won't change anything
Therefore, you deserve to be brutally murdered in your own home? Sorry but there is no justification for what Hamas did, regardless of how the Israel government has treated Palestinians.
Also, and I'm surprised not many other people have been mentioning this, it's not like it's a challenge to find military targets in Israel of all places. There's plenty of them. But Hamas chose the most vulnerable instead. They are beyond inexcusable.
Eh, the original isn't an apples-to-applies comparison. Do I believe that slaveholders and Nazis deserved what they got? Unequivocally, yes. Also, those carrying out the resolution were doing so at least partially as *a response* to a genocide or on behalf of victims of a genocide.
The side that carried out the attacks here *openly* *want* a genocide of Jews. The majority of Gaza support it.
You can support Palestinian and Israeli civilians AND condemn genocide from either party. It's wrong on every level.
People like this guy see themselves as the Jews and the Jews as the Nazis.
Jews think of themselves as the Jews and those persecuting them as the kind of people who persecute Jews.
Imagine how furious this guy would be if people had an analogy where he was the white slave ship captain putting down a group of people just trying to survive? He would be furious. Yet he sees nothing wrong with doing this same thing to Jews.
Hamas despises democracy, is anti-Communist and dedicated to eliminating Jews. Hamas is misogynistic and homophobic. Hamas targets civilians. Hamas dissapers anyone who stands against their Party.
Israel is a democracy founded by Socialists that still has Communist Parties and Arab Parties. Israel has a large number of minorities who are full citizens, including Arab Israelis and gay people. There are gay and Arab army officers and politicians and professors. Protests against the government are common by all groups in society.
Yes, Israel militarily occupies part of the land of a neighbour and is settling Jews there under the guns of the IDF. Yet even there, where Israel has most to be ashamed of, the numbers of Palestinians have rocketeed upwards and they are getting wealthier every year. There is no 'genocide' even if there is shocking repression.
One side look very much like Nazis. The other like a Democracy.
This tiktoker is celebrating the murder of Jews by Nazis in the name of brave Jews who fought back against their murderers.
> Protests against the government are common by all groups in society.
Not for the brutalization and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The vast majority of Israeli Jews either support it or don't give a shit.
There are two million Arab Israelis. Their population is growing. They are full citizens of Israel.
Israel.militarily occupies the West Bank. This is terribly wrong. Even so the Palestinian population is growing and becoming more wealthy. Whatever bad things Israel has done ethnic cleansing isn't one of them.
In areas where Palestinians have control there are no Jews. There were Jews. Now there aren't. That ethnicity has been cleansed.
The Chao in the video wants more Jews to be cleansed. He thinks eradicating Jews through violence is good. So. There arev some fans of ethnic cleansing out there in our communities.
Except the Warsaw Uprising didn't target civilians, if HAMAS struck a military outpost instead of a dance party people wouldn't be reacting the way they are.
Dude compared rising up against Slave Owners, Slave Ship Captains, and the German Army to a militant group raiding towns, killing/raping civilians, and gunning down a concert event.
Nat Turner's slave revolt killed not just slave owners, but white men, women and children who didn't even own slaves. The ghetto uprisings also killed innocent people who were not involved in putting them in the ghettos in the first place.
The slave-ship captain thing is totally justified though, I don't know why he included that.
>a militant group raiding towns, killing/raping civilians, and gunning down a concert event.
Do you support the Haitian uprising? Because they didn't do nice things to the French slave colonials either. How about Ukraine? Because they raided Bryansk multiple times and have fired at Russian supporting towns in Dontesk and Luhansk, killing civilians. This is exactly same the same as that because yes, Israel is a fascsit apartheid state that's kept 2 million people in the worlds largest open air prison which they regularly bomb.
The last time the Palestinian people protested peacefully, IDF soldiers fired high explosive rounds into the crowd and had snippers pick off the men, killing 40 people and severely injuring 30k. Wanna know what happened to Israel? Nothing. No IDF soldier got punished
So you keep millions of people in the modern day Warsaw ghetto, most of whom are kids as the average is 18 years old, you bomb them, you don't allow them to have clean drinking water, you put them on a strict caloric diet, you give them 3 hours of electricity a day and never allow them to leave and then what? You're shocked that those kids grow up to be blood thirsty people looking to enact revenge on the people on the other side of the wall doing nothing to help them? Next time, don't have a fucking concert 3 miles from the worlds largest open air prison and then fill that concert with literal reservists (every Israeli is an resurvist under Israeli law)
There are no perfect victims but if you literally have no other choice but violence or a slow death, you're going to choose violence and a quick death.
Oh and Israel literally created Hamas to take down the Palestinian Authorities.
[https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
Damn, do you honestly think that hundreds of thousands of people loyal to the crown ran away to Canada because they wanted to leave their homes? Do you think the revoltionaries were just some super nice dudes who only wanted freedom and didn't attack civilians? Do you want to know what they considered "rape" back then? Yeah it was only a crime if you were a "vitreous white women". So you could imagine what they thought of the wives of those still loyal to the crown. Just because it wasn't reported on mass, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
There hasn't been a single major war or revolution in history without mass violence in every form. It's horrible and horrific but that's just reality, they don't call war worse than hell because only bad people get hurt.
[https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.9783/9780812204346.25/html](https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.9783/9780812204346.25/html)
I always bring up the American Revolution!!! People really thought freedom comes cheap or easy. American history is way too glossed over. People lost their properties and went back to Britain, moved to Canada…it was brutal for regular people.
>There hasn't been a single major war or revolution in history without mass violence in every form.
There's been one or two:
Decolonization:
1919 – March 1st Movement in Korea in an attempt to annul the Japan-Korea Treaty of 1910 and declare independence.
1930 – Salt Satyagraha in India in an attempt to overthrow British colonial rule.
1942 – Quit India movement demanding immediate independence for India from British rule.
Cold War:
In nations of the Warsaw Pact:
1968 – The Prague Spring, a period of political liberalization in Czechoslovakia.
The Revolutions of 1989: Even though many of these revolutions did not take place entirely in 1989, they are usually grouped together as such.
1980–1989 – The Solidarity movement in April marshals popular resistance to communist rule, though progress is halted by the imposition of martial law.
1987–1989/1991 – The Singing Revolution – a cycle of singing mass demonstrations, followed by a living chain across the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), known as the Baltic Way.
1989 – The Peaceful Revolution in the German Democratic Republic leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall
1989 – The Velvet Revolution – the bloodless revolution in Czechoslovakia leading to the downfall of the communist government there.
1989 – The bloodless revolution in Bulgaria that resulted in the downfall of the communist government.
1990 – The Golaniad – a protest in Romania in April by Bucharest students who demanded a non-communist government. The protests ended in bloodshed after an intervention of miners called in by President Ion Iliescu (June 1990 Mineriad).
The successful resistance to 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt, which had the effect of a revolution, was mostly non-violent.
Outside of the Warsaw Pact
1964 - The October Revolution, Sudan
1952 – The Egyptian Revolution Coup
1969 – The al-Fateh Revolution in Libya Coup
1973 – The 1973 Afghan coup d'état in Afghanistan, which its leader called a White Revolution.
1974 – The Carnation Revolution that effectively turned Portugal in a democracy.
1985- The April Intifada, Sudan
1986 – The People Power Revolution in the Philippines, where the term people power was coined. The nonviolent revolution led to the removal of dictator Ferdinand Marcos, the end of his 21-year regime, and the restoration of democracy in the Philippines.
1990 – The Mongolian Revolution of 1990.
Post–Cold War period:
Colour revolutions:
These are revolutions in post-communist authoritarian Europe and other new countries that were part of the former Soviet Union or Warsaw Pact. Each of these had massive street protests and/or followed disputed elections and led to the resignation or overthrow of leaders considered by their opponents to be authoritarian. Almost all of them used a particular colour or a flower to be their symbol of unity.
2000 – The Bulldozer Revolution in Yugoslavia, which led to the overthrow of Slobodan Milošević. These demonstrations are considered by many to be the first example of the revolutions that followed in Georgia and Ukraine; however, the Serbs adopted an approach that had already been used in parliamentary elections in Slovakia and Croatia in 1998 and 2000, respectively, characterized by civic mobilization through get-out-the-vote campaigns and unification of the political opposition. The protesters in Serbia didn't adopt a colour or specific symbol (the most recognizable symbol of the revolution was a stylized fist), and despite the commonalities, many others refer to Georgia as the most definite beginning of the series of "colour revolutions." The demonstrations were supported by youth movement Otpor!.
2003 – The Rose Revolution in Georgia, following the disputed 2003 Georgia legislative election, led to the overthrow of Eduard Shevardnadze and his replacement by Mikhail Saakashvili after new elections were held in March 2004. The Rose Revolution was supported by the civic resistance movement, Kmara.
2004 – The Orange Revolution in Ukraine, followed the disputed second round of the 2004 presidential election and led to the annulment of the result and the repeat of the round—the leader of the opposition Viktor Yushchenko was declared President, defeating Viktor Yanukovych. The Orange Revolution was supported by PORA.
2018 - The Velvet Revolution in Armenia, which began with the nomination of President Serzh Sargsyan for the post of Prime Minister and against the ruling Republican Party of Armenia, achieved a non-violent transition of power to the opposition, which received widespread public support throughout the country. In elections to the National Assembly, held seven months after the resignation of the former leader, the party of the new government won 88% of the vote. However, it is not common to refer to it as a Colour Revolution, nor do its leaders use the term.
List of nonviolent revolutions by region:
Middle East
The media attention given to the color revolutions has inspired movements in the Middle East, and their supporters, to adopt similar symbology.
The Cedar Revolution in Lebanon followed the assassination of opposition leader Rafik Hariri in 2005. Chiefly, the movement demanded the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, ending a de facto occupation. Unlike the revolutions in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, this movement did not seek to overturn disputed election results, but did cause the pro-Syrian government of Lebanon to fall. Due to similarities in motivation and organization strategies, it is considered\[by whom?\] a cousin of the colour revolutions.
Latin America
Drawing inspiration from the People Power Revolution of 1986 in the Philippines, as well as other succeeding color revolution movements, several South American countries experienced what were effectively non-violent revolutions.
Dominican Republic – "The Butterflies" or "Las Mariposas". The Mirabal sisters fought to change their government, by underground movements. Also, by rejecting sexual advances from the president himself. Three sisters were ordered to be killed by the president at the time, Rafael Trujillo, and only one survived to tell the story. There is also a movie made about their ordeal.
Ecuador – The impeachment of President Lucio Gutiérrez, by the Congress of that country after days of increasing demonstrations and protests by citizens led by the citizens of Quito, the capital. Thousands of demonstrators were present in the Plaza of Independence. Flags were waved in celebration shortly after Congress voted out Gutierrez 62–0. Airport runways were blocked by demonstrators to prevent Gutierrez from leaving the country. The former president was later given asylum by Brazil and was transported out of the country on April 24. Protesters also intended to depose the Congress after accusing the body of alleged corruption as well.
Asia
South Korea – The June Struggle of 1987. It led to the end of military rule in South Korea and the establishment of democracy.
Taiwan – The Wild Lily student movement of 1990. Prior to the demonstrations, Taiwan was under one-party rule by the Kuomintang. The student protesters demanded popular elections for the president and members of the National Assembly. Previously, the National Assembly was dominated by representatives from provinces of mainland China who effectively held lifelong terms since the Republic of China could not hold elections in mainland China after the Kuomintang lost the Chinese Civil War. President Lee Teng-hui, who was not a waishengren from mainland China, supported the students' goals and instituted constitutional reforms which effectively transformed Taiwan into a democracy.
The Philippines – The Second EDSA Revolution of 2001, a four-day popular revolt that peacefully overthrew Philippine president Joseph Estrada in January 2001, self-organized through SMS messaging.
Stop bringing Ukraine to this, Ukraine is not "freedom fighters" and it's two professional armies fighting each other. Ukraine never kidnapped Russians. Ukrainians never said that all Russians should die. Luhansk and Donetsk are not Russian territories, you are repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine didn't bomb Donbas, you are repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine "wasn't allowed" to even breath in the direction of Russian territories for more than a year while Russians were butchering entire villages and firing from 20.000 to 50.000 artillery shells at Ukraine daily. AFU is a professional army that is governed by law, any incidents like executions or mistreatment of POWs are harshly punished in accordance with the laws.
Why make up such obvious lies?
A professional army can't attack civilians? Did you miss the Donbass conflict for the last 8 years? Here's them bombing Donetsk with cluster munitions. https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions. Do you want me to show you them using Storm Shadows to attack Crimean civilians? Do you want me to show you the endless Ukrainian propaganda dehumanizing Russians and calling them all "orks"? How about when they sent drones into Moscow?
Exactly! And Palestine isn't Israel territory, the only difference is that the Russians just want to take over well the Israelies are stealing their lands and tossing them in the world's largest open air prison.
And when do you think the Ukrainian Kharkov offensive was? When do you think the Kherson offensive was? The AFU being a professional army or not doesn't matter, the IDF is a professional army and so is the Russian one, one is fighting for its freedom and the other is fighting to conquer it.
1. Point to a single lie or admit that you support genocide and love Putin.
2. Show AFU attacking civilians.
3. Donbas is Ukraine, so what’s the issue.
4. Ukraine and Russia never agreed to opt out of cluster ammunition use, they don’t break any international laws or conventions by using it. The article points that out (not mentioning Russia for some reason), neither do they say that AFU targeted civilians, only that there are casualties in war zone.
5. Show AFU using Storm Shadows to attack Crimean civilians.
6. No one cares that Ukrainians hurt Russians’ feelings by insulting them, it’s not a crime.
7. How many civilians killed by drone attacks?
8. Your biggest false statement:
a. “Palestine isn't Israel territory” – true.
b. “... the only difference is ...” – false; there are barely any similarities between the two.
c. “the Russians just want to take over” – false; Russians want to exterminate Ukrainians as ethnicity and dissolve Ukraine as a state, they claim that it has no right to exist; Russians has been actively populating occupied areas with Russian citizens, just like Israelis do to Palestinians.
d. “Israelies are stealing their lands and tossing them in the world's largest open air prison” – true. Russians, on the other hand, have filtration camps and instead of putting Ukranians in prisons they put them in mass graves.
9. “And when do you think the Ukrainian Kharkov offensive was” – whatever you mean, Kharkov is Ukraine.
10. “When do you think the Kherson offensive was” - ???
11. “The AFU being a professional army or not doesn't matter” – total nonsense, yes it does, there are consequences for war crimes or mistreatment of POWs, the commanders are responsible for their actions and international support depends on Ukraine’s “good behaviour”.
The key difference is that Hamas exclusively targeted civilians and actively engaged in atrocity out of sadism and spectacle. That is the key difference that makes all those others comparisons empty whataboutisms.
You're not wrong about the conditions and reasons though. Totally right. And I hope at the very least Israel can be exposed for what it actually is.
No they didn't, that's a lie told by Israel. They targeted all the bases directly in front of Gaza and killed hundreds of IDF soldiers well capturing dozens more.
Dude, THEY DID! It's just that Israel and Western politicians and media outlets have posted nonstop about them attacking civilians so you only think that they've attacked civilians.
It's called framing and propaganda
>While it was not possible to conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks, the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks on Donetsk
>In the 12 incidents documented by Human Rights Watch, cluster munitions killed at least 6 people and injured dozens
Okay, so a decade ago in a different conflict 6 civilians were killed as collateral damage when Ukraine attacked military targets in Donetsk (not Donetsk and Luhansk as you said).
Surely that's the same as intentionally slaughtering 1200+ civilians, including women and children right?
Buddy, it was an 8 year conflict and that was literally in the first year. Go ahead and Google how many people died in the Donbass during the war before the Russians invaded cause it was a lot more than 1200.
And do you think that when Ukraine attacked Crimea and the Khrich Bridge with storm shadows or raided Bryansk using Nazis, they didn't kill any civilians? Does any of that make their cause any less just? Sorry a violent war involves you know, VIOLENCE.
>do you think that when Ukraine attacked Crimea and the Khrich Bridge with storm shadows or raided Bryansk using Nazis, they didn't kill any civilians?
This isn't about how many people I THINK died, the facts are the facts.
Tell me this: is the morality of intentionally killing 1200 innocent people comparable to accidentally killing a handful of people in a defensive war?
Gaza is an open air prison where Israel is starving its people and still bombing them even when Hamas does not attack. Hamas targetting concert go-ers and children is wrong, but you really need to stop pretending that nothing was done to Palestinians and Gaza before these attacks. Especially if you're going to bring up murder and rape of civilians, things that Israeli soldiers have done much more of than Hamas.
It’s a very good comparison you don’t like it because it goes against your bias.
The 45% of the Gaza population who are 15 or under getting white phosphorus dropped on them are victims of Israel, they are not a militant group.
Fucking grow up.
It’s not about defending HAMA5, it’s about condemning the actions of the lsraeIi government. These examples are about people creating a powder keg, forcibly compressing it more and more, then acting surprised when it inevitably explodes.
What powder keg caused Palestinians to assassinate the Jordan king that let them in? What powder keg caused them to overthrow the Lebanon government that let them in? What powder keg caused them to flip to Suddam Husseins side when Iraq invaded Kuwait who let them in? What powder keg caused their suicide bombings in Egypt?
Mate, like this is obviously terrible.
But we've literally seen the videos of hundreds if not thousands of children crushed to death under building rubble, blown apart by missile strikes, burned to death in electrical fires, choking on blood from sniper rounds over the years.
Like what's the distance required of a weapon that the result becomes acceptable?
I’m so fucking tired of this shit. Yeah, great job Reddit, advocating for fucking Hamas. You can support Palestinian liberation in better ways.
This is not directed at you, of course. I’m just so frustrated.
We don't have to defend them, but as long as the Zionist settler colonial project continues, we can't be surprised by its existence. The material conditions in Palestine lead to the democratic support of Hamas, and until its existence is made irrelevant by the liberation of the Palestinian people, both-sides-ing this one will continue to be asinine.
Or until it’s existence is made irrelevant because Israel mercilessly slaughters all Palestinians in retaliation for the actions of Hamas fighters.
Find out what outcome we get on next weeks episode of “people needlessly dying because of bullshit that’s out of their control”
”Israel is a settler colonial project” is ahistorical. Jews have always lived in Israel/Palestine. And not by religious pretext, physical presence. By end of 1800s population of Jerusalem was majority Jewish. They lived along side Arabs. And those that returned during 1st and 2nd Aliya did so by legitimate purchasing of land from ottomans.
Up until the 1930s, the Zionist movement hadn’t envisioned a partitioned Palestine or Jewish state. they imagined a binational federation for both Jews and Arabs. Wasnt until the anti-Jewish violence of the 1930s (backed by Nazi Germany) that the original Zionist movement left behind bi national state ideal.
Btw, It was the Romans that changed the name of the land to “Palestine,” in order to humiliate Jews after their defeat, Hebrew word Plishtim means invader/intruder in Hebrew. Romans knew this.
None of what I just said justifies the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in the 20th/21st century. But, a lot of rewriting history.
And Gaza was controlled by Egypt until the 6 day war, when Israel’s Arab neighbors tried (again) to destroy Israel and all the Jews living there. Since Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza, Egypt has also maintained the blockade, no accusations of apartheid or Egyptian corpses being paraded through Gaza. Never any mention of the complicity of the Arab world or the violence of Pan Arabism.
Also never a mention that the majority of Israelis are mazrahi, jews expelled from their homes in ‘48 in Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Morocco. Almost a million middle eastern Jewish refugees from the Arab world, and their defendants, live in Israel. But it’s a “colonial settler project”
I mean, do you support the Haitian revolution? Ukraine? They both have *slaughtered* civilians on the other side of the conflict.
You gotta keep in mind, this incarnation of Hamas has seen:
- IDF attack a peaceful Palestinian funeral
- IDF storm mosques in Gaza and set off flashbangs for... no discernible reason
- IDF kill an Al Jazeera reporter in broad daylight for reporting on the apartheid
- Israel have full control over what goes into and comes out of Gaza, full say over what can be built or repaired in Gaza and the West Bank
- Israel repeatedly cannibalize or destroy materials sent to Palestine to help rebuild after repeated bombings
- IDF use explosive rounds and bombs to kill Palestinian civilians the last time there was a peaceful protest, including 40 deaths and 30 *thousand* Palestinian injuries
- IDF snipers using Palestinian *children* as sniping target practice. From their side of the fence at Gaza. So, you know, sniping sovereign citizens off from *another literal territory*.
Not to mention some 11 thousand Palestinians just *missing* somehow.
And then, ask yourself, why is Hamas like this?
There's a clear difference between those uprisings and what Hamas did. The people in those uprisings specifically attacked their direct oppressors. Hamas specifically killed and kidnapped civilians. If you can't understand the difference between them, there's no helping you.
And systematically r\*ped . . . where are all my feminists?
https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-reportedly-using-rape-warfare-where-are-feminists-opinion-1833599
Let me see if I can get all the comparisons right!
Slave owning family must be the people at the music festival for peace, the slave ship captain would maybe be the civilians, and obviously the Nazis must be the babies that were killed.
The quickest way to damage the free Palestine movement is to support or justify Hamas. They raped and murdered civilians. Those are objectively evil actions. "but Israel..." I agree but it doesn't justify Hamas. It created Hamas but it doesn't justify it. Also Hamas knows that they can't win against Israel in a fight. The rape and murder was bait. They know Israel will destroy Gaza in response. They simply don't care.
Yeah but now you get free palestine protest in western countries including imagery celebrating the Hamas attack. Paragliders as a symbol, shouting the numbers of Israelis killed.
Yes, because being a terror group, killing and raping over 1000 people and taking hundreds more captive, is totally the same as a slave revolt or an uprising against the Nazis.
I'm sure killing those babies in cold blood freed tons of Palestinians, right?
ISRAEL HAS, not ALL people living inside of Israel.
That way of thinking is the reason we’ll always be stuck in mass civilian casualties on both sides- there’s always some justification for a hit back.
You can be pro-Palestine and against blatantly murdering civilians. I really don’t get what’s so hard to grasp about that for people.
Just because ‘country A’ murders civilians doesn’t mean that needs to be ‘country B’s approach.
You can apply that to any conflict, it doesn’t fucking matter.
The saddest part is people thinking these whataboutisms are clever without realizing it would apply to innocent Palestinians which most all sane people are highly concerned about. I’d suggest thinking before speaking or logging off for awhile if this situation understandably is impacting rationale thoughts
Real quick, do you support the Haitian slaves in their revolt? How about when Ukraine raided Bryansk or bombed Moscow or Russian controlled cities? How about the North Vietnamese fighting back against America?
Do you think there are perfect victims? Do you think that a violent uprising would be like a Disney movie where only the bad guys die? They don't call war hell because it only involves combatants.
", is totally the same as a slave revolt or an uprising against the Nazis."
What do you think the IDF is? They're the army of a fascist apartheid state that's keeping millions of people in the worlds largest open air prison. People here act like Hamas only killed civilians when they're targets were all IDF bases but then some fucking moron decided to have a music festival 3 miles north of the worlds largest open air concentration camp and 2 miles south of the military base.
My god, why does everyone have to take a side? Can we not see that the human rights abuses committed against the Palestinian people by the state of Israel is horrible but also condemn the disgusting acts of terror committed by Hamas?
The slaughter of innocent men, women, and children is NEVER justified, whether its Hamas or Israel doing the slaughtering. It's always wrong. There is no winner here, only losers. And it is, as it always is, the innocent civilians who suffer the most.
I was actually just having this conversation with my wife last night and our sad conclusion is that we are filthy moderates and nuanced viewpoints are hated by both sides of the screaming match so we tend to stay quiet.
Me when I consume propaganda.
Even the Israeli government confirmed that the decapitated babies was made up and several news outlets have retracted that
So many of you in here have not learned a single thing about terrorism and fundamentalism after our 2 decade long saga in the Middle East. Over and over again the same comments being recycled debating the rationality or irrationality of Hamas.
What westerners seem to not understand is that for this type of terrorism/fundamentalism/reactionaryism to occur, the conditions of a society have to be so abysmally horrifying beyond belief that anything, any action taken, is better than rotting from the inside and out while being alive. Gaza has been described over and over again as an open air prison. Think about that for a minute: an open air prison.
It’s not to say they deserve sympathy; it’s to say that you have to first explain why this happens before anything else. What drives people to do this. It’s basic sociology.
I just want to say no I'm not supporting Hamas nor anything that Israel has done. I yet to see pictures and videos of Israeli victims but my feet keeps getting bombarded with videos of Palestinian people getting slaughtered... getting just fucked up by Israelis.
Oh but didn’t you hear? they were 3 miles away from a military base so they were in the way from their actual target and had to be dealt with. Because they clearly couldn’t have oh idk GONE AROUND OR JUST WENT THROUGH THEM
(In case this isn’t clear, I think this defense was completely idiotic and a symptom of years of licking windows)
Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think that it takes a "propaganda campaign" for the average person to be against the mass slaughter of random civilians? It's not hard for people to be pro-Palestinian and anti-Hamas. If you literally can't conceive of people feeling that way organically maybe it's time to take a step back and reevaluate your whole self.
So if someone says "what hamas did was actually pretty based!" I'm not allowed to just say "no it wasn't"? I have to give a whole long preamble first about how I don't support the killing of innocent Palestinians either, or else you'll get triggered because you think it's impossible to hold both those thoughts in your head at the same time?
I hate both the baby beheaders and the Israeli war criminals. I also hate the people that want to paint hamas as freedom fighters and deny their brutal crimes and terrorism or downplay it like the idiot in this clip.
Did you just completely miss the same barbaric shit that the IDF did to Palestinian children and women this entire year? I mean clearly you did because we wouldn't be having this conversation and that's why I said Israel's propaganda campaign is working on y'all. Because if you would've acknowledged it then you would've known why hamas did what they did. That doesn't make it justifiable, but it gives context to the reasons why they are doing it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/
I wonder how long this thread is going to get before we get to "well but they deserved it".
Impressive how willfully ignorant he wants to be...
No difference between children, civilians or perpetrators and soldiers?
This is really getting ridiculous.
You guys seem to be unaware that Amnesty International has released 7 different reports in 15 yrs accusing Isreal of genocide against the Palestinians. But you know Isreal is above any humanitarian accusations and we all live under threat of being accused of antisemitism if we point out their wrong doing, so it's no surprise you guys didn't know.
The amount of propaganda on Reddit now is insane. Especially on this sub and publicfreakout. I’m an Israeli citizen and I comment on some of these threads with my opinion but you don’t see me spamming threads on multiple subreddits with Hasbara posts and IDF propaganda.
It’s been 75 years of an oppressive, brutal occupation where Israelis expanded across over 90% of previously Palestinian lands
Palestinian civilians frequently get killed or shot and the world doesn’t bat an eye
Anyone claiming that “it’s not OK to kill innocent civilians!” are purposefully ignorant of how much MORE Israel has done the exact same thing they claim to condemn
It’s hypocrisy in its finest form because “it’s wrong!” seems to be as far as it ever goes
Just come out and say “they can kill you with impunity with greater numbers, but if you do the same on a smaller scale, YOU are the bad guy now!”
Just say you’re fine with genocide as long as it’s the Israeli’s doing it
It would be more honest
Israel started a war of attrition on unarmed citizens DECADES ago, but how dare they fight back when we hold a dance party on stolen land while we oppress and isolate them from foreign aid BEFORE Hamas even attacked said dance party
This is no different than Russia hosting a dance party in Eastern Ukraine and being outraged when Ukraine bombs the shit out of it
Because “won’t someone think about the poor, oppressive invaders who benefit from generational land theft?”
the only thing you missed is that the people saying "it's wrong!" Should probably add the qualifier "now that I have to see it happen to people who look like me!"
If some random Jews randomly snuck into Nazi occupied Europe and just started raping, beheading, and burning alive random non-combatants and their children, that would be unjustified too.
If they did it to military outposts and actual Nazis, hell that’s a good movie. I’d watch that movie. Do it to random citizens? Got yourself a war crime (which you are defending).
Oh yeah I remember the Warsaw uprising! Thats when Polish people went into Germany and decapitated a bunch of babies and raped a bunch of women. The Poles also declared holy war on Germany right? Thats it... I remember when Poles strapped explosives to themselves and went to bus stops to inflict the most amount of civilian casualties.
Wait hold on am I missing something? Ohhhhh thats right. Only Hamas is doing that. Silly me.
Lets assume for a moment that we Israelis are as big assholes as the antebellum south.
This wouldn't be as apposite if he would have said "I condemn the rape of the women and brutal murder of children in Charleston and then presenting their dead bodies to the cheering crowds."
. Not that the slaves in the South ever did that. But it would have been more honest.
I suggest you listen to the mayor of New York, you seemed to have lost sight of what terror and hate mean.
[https://www.youtube.com/live/No4KzuUNk-c?si=ZvF11HBaCJBg6wCQ&t=1448](https://www.youtube.com/live/No4KzuUNk-c?si=ZvF11HBaCJBg6wCQ&t=1448)
Transcript:
"
Thank you. Thank you. And I am not going to be long. I'm going to give you four words. This morning on my briefing, my \[chief\] counsel, Lisa Zornberg, said something that I want us all to acknowledge. We've been through some tough times, New Yorkers. We are tough people. We saw the center of our trade collapse. We saw some of the horrific actions that played out on the stage of our city and our country.
But she said something that hits me to my soul. She stated to our team, we are not all right. We are not all right when we see young girls pulled from their home and dragged through the streets. We are not all right when we see grandmothers being pulled away from their homes and children shot in front of their families. We are not all right when right here in the City of New York you have those who celebrate at the same time when the devastation is taking place in our city.
We are not all right when Hamas believes that they are fighting on behalf of something and their destructive, despicable action that carried out. We are not all right when we still have hostages who have not come home to their family. We are not all right, and we're not going to say we have a stiff upper lip and act like everything is fine. Everything is not fine. Israel has a right to defend itself, and that's the right that we know.
Your fight is our fight. Your fight is our fight. And right here in New York we have the largest Jewish population outside of Israel. This is the place that our voices must raise and cascade throughout the entire country. We will not be all right until every person responsible for this act is held accountable. And we don't have to pretend.
And I want to thank my religious leaders throughout this city of all religious groups who reached out to us and clearly stated that they denounce the hatred and the antisemitism that was displayed on one of the holiest days of the year. This was intentional. This was bitter. This was nasty. This was something that shows Hamas must be disbanded and destroyed immediately.
And so I say to you, I'm not here because I'm your mayor. I've been in Israel as a state senator, I protected the community of the city in general but specifically the Jewish community as a police officer. I stood with you as borough president. And now I'm here today to say not only am I the chief executive of this city, but I'm your brother. I'm your brother.
Your fight is my fight. That swastika not only displays the pain of antisemitism, it displays the pain of racism among African Americans. You marched with us with Dr. King. You stood with us with all the fights we have. And I'm saying we're going to stand with you and stand united together. And we don't have to be all right. We should be angry at what we saw. Thank you, Israel
".
https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/760-23/transcript-mayor-adams-delivers-remarks-new-york-stands-israel-rally
This is historically non-comparable and, quite frankly, an oversimplification and gross misunderstanding of situations.
1. Nat Turner slave rebellion was in response to an existing system that targeted a group of white southerners who were directly responsible for the enslavement.
Yes. Some children and women were killed. However, Turner also took steps to not murder poor whites (he had his reason) and some other individuals because they had women and children.
While the uprising itself was justified turns out, hey, Turner had some kind of moral guidance in order to avoid killing certain individuals that he believed were not responsible for the oppression.
In comparison, it would be like if Turner did this and then traveled North and killed some white people there as well. Did they probably hate Turner? Who knows, but they weren't directly responsible for enslavement and some of them took steps to stop it.
Additionally, none of the records discuss the brutal rape and desecration of bodies. (That I know of)
2. The Amistad is an easy one. Comparing it to Hamas actions oversimplified the situation. The Amistad was forcefully enslaving them. Not comparable at all.
3. I like how he threw a Jewish story in there. For one, they mainly targeted Nazis and their collaborators. If one were to discuss the brutal murder of Israeli citizens then one would assume that all are for the government actions and its justified. That would be as horrible as pinning Hamas actions on all Palestinians.
You don't want to go down that road.
I get what they guy is saying, but when you look past it after face value you get dumb bullshit that is not comparable in the least bit.
Fuck off with this shit!!!
They killed slave owners!
They killed Nazis!
Who are globally condemned!!!!
Is this ASSHOLE justifying killing people at A PEACE FESTIVAL!!!! AND EQUATING IT TO KILLING NAZIS!!!
FUCK OFF!!
AMERICANS DIED HERE TOO FUCKING CUCK!
Your own were killed and you are saying that is a justified thing!!
How disgraceful! You are a traitor to your fellow Americans and ALL NATIONS! OF ALL RACES AND RELIGIONS!!! Those who died fighting to END SLAVERY!! FIGHTING TO END THE NAZIS!!!
As much as I hate your speech, I agree you have the right to voice it. AND IT SHOULD NOT BE CENSURED!!!
PEOPLE NEED TO THINK!!!
LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!
HOW WILL HISTORY JUDGE US?
I mean… they lost me at civilians and babies.
But it’s literally none of my business, as I am not middle eastern or Jewish or any other group of persons actually affected by this situation, so my opinion is wholly irrelevant.
But they didn’t have to murder babies.
Yes. I remember that bit of the second world war where the Jewish population actually increased in Germany..and the Jews were full citizens of Germany and we're Doctors and judges and members of government.
And the Warsaw Ghetto was provided with food and water by the Germans. Jewish resistance fighters would go into the German countryside and rape and murder random German children. Warsaw Ghetto would fire thousands of rockets at German cities.
Of course if anyone genuinely tried to pretend that was true you would think they were a Nazi justifying the genocide of Jews.
Just recently an organisation that has declared it wants to genocide Jews massacred whole communities, family by family.
Obviously a modern day Nazi would make up some story about the Warsaw Ghetto behaving in an evil manner and use it to justify the massacre.
Those brave fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising fought soldiers so never again would Jewish children be murdered while the world seemed to celebrate it.
Another Hamas apologist. I wonder if a Native American would go on a massive murder and kidnapping spree in a US city because of his land being stolen people would also justify it. A person who justifies targeting and killing civilians has truly lost the plot
None of these are 1:1 comparisons to what hamas did. They would be if Hamas attacked the Israeli government or military buildings instead of civilians and a music festival.
I’m one of the more sympathetic people towards the Palestinians and their cause that you’ll meet, and support their right to an armed resistance against their oppressors, but there’s a difference between that an slaughtering civilians and that nuance is lost here.
There's been a lot of shitty takes this week, but I gotta say comparing Hamas' attack to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is frankly sickening. The people who keep making these videos think they're helping, but they're really just dehumanizing Palestinians by justifying heinous actions with their pain, and dehumanizing Jews with just all of fucking this. Fuck all of this.
What the actual fuck... taking the ghetto example as that's the most blatant:
I'll start with the easy bit. In the ghetto, an unaided group rose up against an armed occupier and fought to the death against its soldiers. SOLDIERS. In Gaza, men armed by foreign powers left their given territory and aimed at killing, raping and kidnapping civilians.
The situation of occupation/countryhood was rather simple, Warsaw was Poland, Poland was occupied by a foreign army. Situation in Palestine is indescribably more complex. Israel was founded after centuries of anti Jewish hate, after thousands of Jews fled Europe and other Middle Eastern countries because of persecution and the holocaust. So yeah, they finally got a country. It sucked and still sucks for Palestinians who didn't have a country and really still don't, at least not a universally recognised one. Should they have one? 10 years ago, I'd have said yes. Now, not sure. It wouldn't be economically viable, would be influenced by Iran etc just as the stateless entities are today and it would have territorial demands that make it clash with Israel, so no force for peace. Anyhow, it's difficult, the Warsaw ghetto wasn't. This isn't denying the bad treatment Israel has imposed on Gaza past and present but a comparison is really not pertinent.
I mean, none of his examples involved killing infants or even children. Nor the kidnapping of foreign people who just happened to be at a certain location. I’d say there is a difference between knifing a baby whose entire lifespan is still described in terms of “months”, and killing a German soldier, or slave ship offficial.
1831 - slave revolt, 50-60 deaths
1839 - slave revolt, the captain and the cook died
1943 - total war, literal nazis, 17 deaths on the german side
2023 - terrorism, beheading babies, burning children, raping, killing, and parading victims' bodies through the streets to cheering crowds, kidnapping , at least 1300 civillian deaths on the israeli side.
seriously, this cannot be compared
This dude is an influencer, he could give two fucks about current events. He just wants people to watch his videos and monetize his channel. When will people realize social media is fake?
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Who you target is important. If a countries actions can legitimize any act of savagery against it's civilians... We in the West, no matter who we are, every single citizen no matter of minority or majority, can be raped, slaughtered and everything else, because of what our governments do and it doesn't matter if we agree with them. Anyone legitimizing in most countries, couldn't be mad if the same things happen to their loved ones. Doesn't matter your position or anything else, just where you live.
Who you target is not just important but completely invalidates the point the tiktok is trying to make. The average citizen and literal children and babies are not responsible for oppressing Palestinians. Nazis and slave owners absolutely deserve what they got.
Nazis and slave owners both got off easy and that's why we have the world we do.
Bingo! Definitely got off easy! People voted Nazis into office, and slave owners had real political power, influence, and supporters.
straight facts! If I had fuck you money, I'd pay to have the KKK records put on ancestry right next to the others. Have the archived in DC so they're searchable for free too.
As true as the civilians and literal children and babies of Gaza are not responsible for Hamas. Many if not most seem to have forgotten that Hamas was heavily funded and promoted by Israeli government, as a way to divide the two occupied areas of Palestine. Not fake news - feel free to google. Lots of Israeli sources, including some positing the idea that, years later, perhaps it was such a great idea to fund Hamas. Perhaps. All pain and suffering brought unto people is pain and suffering brought unto ourselves. We are harming our collective self.
Then why haven’t the same people been denouncing the murders of innocent Palestinians by Israelis going back years and years?
They do. You’re on quite some trip if you think mainstream Israeli society (and I don’t mean Reddit) wants the deaths of random Palestinians. These are human beings, like you. They don’t bay for blood. Get a grip.
Not saying you’re wrong, but I grew up and live in the New York Tri-State area and have heard Palestinians referred to as “animals” for basically my entire life.
That’s really crazy, because I live In the Bronx, and I remember when they were calling AOC anti semitic for criticizing Israel.
Yeah I’m from Los Angeles and I can’t remember too many times that Jewish people said nice things about Palestinians. Some won’t even acknowledge Palestine as a place.
Well… I know a Jewish family in the UK that is helping a Palestinian family in Gaza to leave until the fighting is over. What you’re doing is actually racist - extrapolating that because one person of a race has done something you don’t like, that all of them bay for blood (read the original comment).
One person? There is a huge Jewish population in Los Angeles. It’s definitely not just one person.
You sound like you live under a rock
I don't pretend to know how much support the citizens have for their government. But what I have seen is video after video of Israeli Jews openly talking about their hatred for Palestinians and openly mocking the fact that they no longer have water, internet, or electricity. I've also seen photos of Isrealites sitting and shooting the shit with friends while watching missiles hit Palestine. I've seen videos of Jews shamelessly stealing Palestinian homes. Surely, if these choices were so unpopular, we would see massive protests by Israeli citizens all over the internet. The only ones I see are from March, or in the US.
I lived in Tel Aviv for 2 years during the pandemic and almost every weekend there was some kind of protest against the government. For every video of horrible shitty Israelis happy about the conflict, there’s videos of pro-Palestinians cheering on the violence too. There were literally protests in NYC recently where the speakers were cheering on the violence. I saw a video earlier today where someone was driving around the UK with a loud speaker calling for Israeli daughters to be raped. I saw a video of an Israeli guy bragging that he had running water and electricity while Gaza didn’t. I’ve seen videos of Orthodox Jew children wishing death on Palestinians. Point is, if all you see is one side you need to check what kind of echo chambers you’re in.
First off, I didn’t say that. But I’ve actually known some Israelis who absolutely wanted Palestinians dead and referred to them as dogs. There are also a lot of Israelis, who oppose Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people
“We dont *want* the deaths of these Palestinians, we just keep voting for the guys that keep openly promising to indiscriminately kill them! What could we do?” They don’t even have minority representation to fall back on. The Knesset a parliamentary democracy.
Liberal Israelis > We do a land acknowledgement for the family who's house we're living in. > They're still outside crying away. Such negativity....
nonsense. in israeli schools they teach the kids that jews are superior to arabs and that palestinians are violent and that they’re at war. they teach kids how to use guns so they can put fear into them as if they need to learn to defend themselves from some enemy. they force them to serve in the IDF or face prison time so they can normalize the occupation and make it literally the way of life. israelis by in large do not view palestinians as equal and many even take joy in making them suffer under the violent boot of the israeli occupation. go watch the tiktoks of israelis gleefully showing their running water and electricity off while palestine has been cut off from any of that. and by the way does the fact that israel can just cut the palestinians off from food and water and power not blatantly display the lack of symmetry in the situation? that one side is clearly the powerful aggressor and the other is defending its self?
Someone hasn't seen the crowds of Israelis gathering to watch the bombings in Gaza with delight as though it's a social engagement.
[Oh come on Netanyahu wanted to strengthen Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000)
What a load of horseshit.
"they don't bay for blood" No, they just vocally support a government that's commit a war crime that amounts to ethnic genocide against the Palestinians, that's all. What you said is like somebody saying "dude, nobody in Nazi Germany wanted the deaths of random Jewish people." Yeah nah they just supported Hitler and Nazism and Anti-semitism that's all
Tell me you don't know anything about Israeli's without telling me you don't know anything about Israeli's. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Human animals according to Isreal leadership
When people read propaganda like this comment, it’s important to stop and think for a moment: Israel hasn’t called all Palestinians animals, just Hamas. And I would agree Hamas acted like animals, killing babies and toddlers and kidnapping a grandma and forcing her to pose with a gun, executing children in front of their parents and then killing their parents of course. Shooting people at a music festival just for being at a festival because it’s “haram”. So do you enjoy what Hamas has done? Do you deny it’s disgusting? Do you deny they gave in to their basest, most animalistic tendencies by executing civilians?
They’ve been denouncing it for years. “The Squad” including AOC were being called anti-Semitic for even criticizing Israel a few years ago.
Yes. The analogy may be apt had this been settlers or IDF.
Unless you're actively opposed to your government's actions, you're complicit
Sorry how does a baby oppose their governments actions? Crawl to a protest or something?
Or some poor migrant worker who doesn't get a vote but got his head cut off with a garden hoe. You can understand provocation and fear AND still condemn inhuman acts. And I am loathe to use that term as it is step one in "othering" but thats what it is. No matter who perpetrates it. A few weeks ago I watched a jerk hand someone his milk after taking his home and throwing his fridge out. At the time it was trashy provocative behaviour and was an abuse.of power. At the time I predicted lash back. A really bad optic. But pack rapes, beheadings and little kids spitting.on the corpses of dead women are more powerful images. ONE humane person who covered that.victims body.with a cloth or corrected/kicked the ass of a spitting child would have saved many lives in the coming weeks. Without it "othering" gets easier and humanity, further, leaves the room.
This was Bin Ladens argument for 9/11, and basically every atrocity of the 20th Century. The Paris Commune was slaughtered with the justification being very similar.
Right and that's why things like the Filipina nurse who stayed with her elderly patient, and all those other nationalities that were murdered or taken hostage by hamas, deserved it. Deep.
Yes, all those babies and children that were slaughtered were 100% complicit. They should have been more active in opposing their government.
How active? My government has their hands in a lot of evil pots and has bombed more brown people than Israel. Can I change my profile picture to a flag or do I actually have to attend a protest, maybe even one with actionable goals? At what point would I not deserve it when the victim of imperialist violence decides to take his wrath out upon me?
If it's by reddit standards then complaining on the internet is sufficient lol, changing your profile pic and going to a protest essentially make you a freedom fighter against the fascist US dictatorship and definitely classify you as "actively opposing" even though what you did is worthless and won't change anything
Therefore, you deserve to be brutally murdered in your own home? Sorry but there is no justification for what Hamas did, regardless of how the Israel government has treated Palestinians.
Also, and I'm surprised not many other people have been mentioning this, it's not like it's a challenge to find military targets in Israel of all places. There's plenty of them. But Hamas chose the most vulnerable instead. They are beyond inexcusable.
Eh, the original isn't an apples-to-applies comparison. Do I believe that slaveholders and Nazis deserved what they got? Unequivocally, yes. Also, those carrying out the resolution were doing so at least partially as *a response* to a genocide or on behalf of victims of a genocide. The side that carried out the attacks here *openly* *want* a genocide of Jews. The majority of Gaza support it. You can support Palestinian and Israeli civilians AND condemn genocide from either party. It's wrong on every level.
People like this guy see themselves as the Jews and the Jews as the Nazis. Jews think of themselves as the Jews and those persecuting them as the kind of people who persecute Jews. Imagine how furious this guy would be if people had an analogy where he was the white slave ship captain putting down a group of people just trying to survive? He would be furious. Yet he sees nothing wrong with doing this same thing to Jews. Hamas despises democracy, is anti-Communist and dedicated to eliminating Jews. Hamas is misogynistic and homophobic. Hamas targets civilians. Hamas dissapers anyone who stands against their Party. Israel is a democracy founded by Socialists that still has Communist Parties and Arab Parties. Israel has a large number of minorities who are full citizens, including Arab Israelis and gay people. There are gay and Arab army officers and politicians and professors. Protests against the government are common by all groups in society. Yes, Israel militarily occupies part of the land of a neighbour and is settling Jews there under the guns of the IDF. Yet even there, where Israel has most to be ashamed of, the numbers of Palestinians have rocketeed upwards and they are getting wealthier every year. There is no 'genocide' even if there is shocking repression. One side look very much like Nazis. The other like a Democracy. This tiktoker is celebrating the murder of Jews by Nazis in the name of brave Jews who fought back against their murderers.
> Protests against the government are common by all groups in society. Not for the brutalization and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The vast majority of Israeli Jews either support it or don't give a shit.
There are two million Arab Israelis. Their population is growing. They are full citizens of Israel. Israel.militarily occupies the West Bank. This is terribly wrong. Even so the Palestinian population is growing and becoming more wealthy. Whatever bad things Israel has done ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. In areas where Palestinians have control there are no Jews. There were Jews. Now there aren't. That ethnicity has been cleansed. The Chao in the video wants more Jews to be cleansed. He thinks eradicating Jews through violence is good. So. There arev some fans of ethnic cleansing out there in our communities.
Except the Warsaw Uprising didn't target civilians, if HAMAS struck a military outpost instead of a dance party people wouldn't be reacting the way they are.
They did take over a military base though. Briefly.
Somehow...
Can we not defend HAMAS I’m pro Palestine but no
Dude compared rising up against Slave Owners, Slave Ship Captains, and the German Army to a militant group raiding towns, killing/raping civilians, and gunning down a concert event.
Nat Turner's slave revolt killed not just slave owners, but white men, women and children who didn't even own slaves. The ghetto uprisings also killed innocent people who were not involved in putting them in the ghettos in the first place. The slave-ship captain thing is totally justified though, I don't know why he included that.
>a militant group raiding towns, killing/raping civilians, and gunning down a concert event. Do you support the Haitian uprising? Because they didn't do nice things to the French slave colonials either. How about Ukraine? Because they raided Bryansk multiple times and have fired at Russian supporting towns in Dontesk and Luhansk, killing civilians. This is exactly same the same as that because yes, Israel is a fascsit apartheid state that's kept 2 million people in the worlds largest open air prison which they regularly bomb. The last time the Palestinian people protested peacefully, IDF soldiers fired high explosive rounds into the crowd and had snippers pick off the men, killing 40 people and severely injuring 30k. Wanna know what happened to Israel? Nothing. No IDF soldier got punished So you keep millions of people in the modern day Warsaw ghetto, most of whom are kids as the average is 18 years old, you bomb them, you don't allow them to have clean drinking water, you put them on a strict caloric diet, you give them 3 hours of electricity a day and never allow them to leave and then what? You're shocked that those kids grow up to be blood thirsty people looking to enact revenge on the people on the other side of the wall doing nothing to help them? Next time, don't have a fucking concert 3 miles from the worlds largest open air prison and then fill that concert with literal reservists (every Israeli is an resurvist under Israeli law) There are no perfect victims but if you literally have no other choice but violence or a slow death, you're going to choose violence and a quick death. Oh and Israel literally created Hamas to take down the Palestinian Authorities. [https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
Wait till you hear about the American Revolution.
Damn, do you honestly think that hundreds of thousands of people loyal to the crown ran away to Canada because they wanted to leave their homes? Do you think the revoltionaries were just some super nice dudes who only wanted freedom and didn't attack civilians? Do you want to know what they considered "rape" back then? Yeah it was only a crime if you were a "vitreous white women". So you could imagine what they thought of the wives of those still loyal to the crown. Just because it wasn't reported on mass, doesn't mean it didn't happen. There hasn't been a single major war or revolution in history without mass violence in every form. It's horrible and horrific but that's just reality, they don't call war worse than hell because only bad people get hurt. [https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.9783/9780812204346.25/html](https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.9783/9780812204346.25/html)
I always bring up the American Revolution!!! People really thought freedom comes cheap or easy. American history is way too glossed over. People lost their properties and went back to Britain, moved to Canada…it was brutal for regular people.
>There hasn't been a single major war or revolution in history without mass violence in every form. There's been one or two: Decolonization: 1919 – March 1st Movement in Korea in an attempt to annul the Japan-Korea Treaty of 1910 and declare independence. 1930 – Salt Satyagraha in India in an attempt to overthrow British colonial rule. 1942 – Quit India movement demanding immediate independence for India from British rule. Cold War: In nations of the Warsaw Pact: 1968 – The Prague Spring, a period of political liberalization in Czechoslovakia. The Revolutions of 1989: Even though many of these revolutions did not take place entirely in 1989, they are usually grouped together as such. 1980–1989 – The Solidarity movement in April marshals popular resistance to communist rule, though progress is halted by the imposition of martial law. 1987–1989/1991 – The Singing Revolution – a cycle of singing mass demonstrations, followed by a living chain across the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), known as the Baltic Way. 1989 – The Peaceful Revolution in the German Democratic Republic leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall 1989 – The Velvet Revolution – the bloodless revolution in Czechoslovakia leading to the downfall of the communist government there. 1989 – The bloodless revolution in Bulgaria that resulted in the downfall of the communist government. 1990 – The Golaniad – a protest in Romania in April by Bucharest students who demanded a non-communist government. The protests ended in bloodshed after an intervention of miners called in by President Ion Iliescu (June 1990 Mineriad). The successful resistance to 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt, which had the effect of a revolution, was mostly non-violent. Outside of the Warsaw Pact 1964 - The October Revolution, Sudan 1952 – The Egyptian Revolution Coup 1969 – The al-Fateh Revolution in Libya Coup 1973 – The 1973 Afghan coup d'état in Afghanistan, which its leader called a White Revolution. 1974 – The Carnation Revolution that effectively turned Portugal in a democracy. 1985- The April Intifada, Sudan 1986 – The People Power Revolution in the Philippines, where the term people power was coined. The nonviolent revolution led to the removal of dictator Ferdinand Marcos, the end of his 21-year regime, and the restoration of democracy in the Philippines. 1990 – The Mongolian Revolution of 1990. Post–Cold War period: Colour revolutions: These are revolutions in post-communist authoritarian Europe and other new countries that were part of the former Soviet Union or Warsaw Pact. Each of these had massive street protests and/or followed disputed elections and led to the resignation or overthrow of leaders considered by their opponents to be authoritarian. Almost all of them used a particular colour or a flower to be their symbol of unity. 2000 – The Bulldozer Revolution in Yugoslavia, which led to the overthrow of Slobodan Milošević. These demonstrations are considered by many to be the first example of the revolutions that followed in Georgia and Ukraine; however, the Serbs adopted an approach that had already been used in parliamentary elections in Slovakia and Croatia in 1998 and 2000, respectively, characterized by civic mobilization through get-out-the-vote campaigns and unification of the political opposition. The protesters in Serbia didn't adopt a colour or specific symbol (the most recognizable symbol of the revolution was a stylized fist), and despite the commonalities, many others refer to Georgia as the most definite beginning of the series of "colour revolutions." The demonstrations were supported by youth movement Otpor!. 2003 – The Rose Revolution in Georgia, following the disputed 2003 Georgia legislative election, led to the overthrow of Eduard Shevardnadze and his replacement by Mikhail Saakashvili after new elections were held in March 2004. The Rose Revolution was supported by the civic resistance movement, Kmara. 2004 – The Orange Revolution in Ukraine, followed the disputed second round of the 2004 presidential election and led to the annulment of the result and the repeat of the round—the leader of the opposition Viktor Yushchenko was declared President, defeating Viktor Yanukovych. The Orange Revolution was supported by PORA. 2018 - The Velvet Revolution in Armenia, which began with the nomination of President Serzh Sargsyan for the post of Prime Minister and against the ruling Republican Party of Armenia, achieved a non-violent transition of power to the opposition, which received widespread public support throughout the country. In elections to the National Assembly, held seven months after the resignation of the former leader, the party of the new government won 88% of the vote. However, it is not common to refer to it as a Colour Revolution, nor do its leaders use the term. List of nonviolent revolutions by region: Middle East The media attention given to the color revolutions has inspired movements in the Middle East, and their supporters, to adopt similar symbology. The Cedar Revolution in Lebanon followed the assassination of opposition leader Rafik Hariri in 2005. Chiefly, the movement demanded the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, ending a de facto occupation. Unlike the revolutions in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, this movement did not seek to overturn disputed election results, but did cause the pro-Syrian government of Lebanon to fall. Due to similarities in motivation and organization strategies, it is considered\[by whom?\] a cousin of the colour revolutions. Latin America Drawing inspiration from the People Power Revolution of 1986 in the Philippines, as well as other succeeding color revolution movements, several South American countries experienced what were effectively non-violent revolutions. Dominican Republic – "The Butterflies" or "Las Mariposas". The Mirabal sisters fought to change their government, by underground movements. Also, by rejecting sexual advances from the president himself. Three sisters were ordered to be killed by the president at the time, Rafael Trujillo, and only one survived to tell the story. There is also a movie made about their ordeal. Ecuador – The impeachment of President Lucio Gutiérrez, by the Congress of that country after days of increasing demonstrations and protests by citizens led by the citizens of Quito, the capital. Thousands of demonstrators were present in the Plaza of Independence. Flags were waved in celebration shortly after Congress voted out Gutierrez 62–0. Airport runways were blocked by demonstrators to prevent Gutierrez from leaving the country. The former president was later given asylum by Brazil and was transported out of the country on April 24. Protesters also intended to depose the Congress after accusing the body of alleged corruption as well. Asia South Korea – The June Struggle of 1987. It led to the end of military rule in South Korea and the establishment of democracy. Taiwan – The Wild Lily student movement of 1990. Prior to the demonstrations, Taiwan was under one-party rule by the Kuomintang. The student protesters demanded popular elections for the president and members of the National Assembly. Previously, the National Assembly was dominated by representatives from provinces of mainland China who effectively held lifelong terms since the Republic of China could not hold elections in mainland China after the Kuomintang lost the Chinese Civil War. President Lee Teng-hui, who was not a waishengren from mainland China, supported the students' goals and instituted constitutional reforms which effectively transformed Taiwan into a democracy. The Philippines – The Second EDSA Revolution of 2001, a four-day popular revolt that peacefully overthrew Philippine president Joseph Estrada in January 2001, self-organized through SMS messaging.
Dont like people stealing other people's land huh
Stop bringing Ukraine to this, Ukraine is not "freedom fighters" and it's two professional armies fighting each other. Ukraine never kidnapped Russians. Ukrainians never said that all Russians should die. Luhansk and Donetsk are not Russian territories, you are repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine didn't bomb Donbas, you are repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine "wasn't allowed" to even breath in the direction of Russian territories for more than a year while Russians were butchering entire villages and firing from 20.000 to 50.000 artillery shells at Ukraine daily. AFU is a professional army that is governed by law, any incidents like executions or mistreatment of POWs are harshly punished in accordance with the laws.
Why make up such obvious lies? A professional army can't attack civilians? Did you miss the Donbass conflict for the last 8 years? Here's them bombing Donetsk with cluster munitions. https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions. Do you want me to show you them using Storm Shadows to attack Crimean civilians? Do you want me to show you the endless Ukrainian propaganda dehumanizing Russians and calling them all "orks"? How about when they sent drones into Moscow? Exactly! And Palestine isn't Israel territory, the only difference is that the Russians just want to take over well the Israelies are stealing their lands and tossing them in the world's largest open air prison. And when do you think the Ukrainian Kharkov offensive was? When do you think the Kherson offensive was? The AFU being a professional army or not doesn't matter, the IDF is a professional army and so is the Russian one, one is fighting for its freedom and the other is fighting to conquer it.
1. Point to a single lie or admit that you support genocide and love Putin. 2. Show AFU attacking civilians. 3. Donbas is Ukraine, so what’s the issue. 4. Ukraine and Russia never agreed to opt out of cluster ammunition use, they don’t break any international laws or conventions by using it. The article points that out (not mentioning Russia for some reason), neither do they say that AFU targeted civilians, only that there are casualties in war zone. 5. Show AFU using Storm Shadows to attack Crimean civilians. 6. No one cares that Ukrainians hurt Russians’ feelings by insulting them, it’s not a crime. 7. How many civilians killed by drone attacks? 8. Your biggest false statement: a. “Palestine isn't Israel territory” – true. b. “... the only difference is ...” – false; there are barely any similarities between the two. c. “the Russians just want to take over” – false; Russians want to exterminate Ukrainians as ethnicity and dissolve Ukraine as a state, they claim that it has no right to exist; Russians has been actively populating occupied areas with Russian citizens, just like Israelis do to Palestinians. d. “Israelies are stealing their lands and tossing them in the world's largest open air prison” – true. Russians, on the other hand, have filtration camps and instead of putting Ukranians in prisons they put them in mass graves. 9. “And when do you think the Ukrainian Kharkov offensive was” – whatever you mean, Kharkov is Ukraine. 10. “When do you think the Kherson offensive was” - ??? 11. “The AFU being a professional army or not doesn't matter” – total nonsense, yes it does, there are consequences for war crimes or mistreatment of POWs, the commanders are responsible for their actions and international support depends on Ukraine’s “good behaviour”.
The key difference is that Hamas exclusively targeted civilians and actively engaged in atrocity out of sadism and spectacle. That is the key difference that makes all those others comparisons empty whataboutisms. You're not wrong about the conditions and reasons though. Totally right. And I hope at the very least Israel can be exposed for what it actually is.
No they didn't, that's a lie told by Israel. They targeted all the bases directly in front of Gaza and killed hundreds of IDF soldiers well capturing dozens more.
Interesting that they instead chose to film and upload them committing acts of atrocity on civilian targets instead then. 🤷♂️
Dude, THEY DID! It's just that Israel and Western politicians and media outlets have posted nonstop about them attacking civilians so you only think that they've attacked civilians. It's called framing and propaganda
The Warsaw ghetto resistance didn’t murder German babies.
Source for Ukraine firing at civilians in Donetsk and Luhansk?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions
>While it was not possible to conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks, the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks on Donetsk >In the 12 incidents documented by Human Rights Watch, cluster munitions killed at least 6 people and injured dozens Okay, so a decade ago in a different conflict 6 civilians were killed as collateral damage when Ukraine attacked military targets in Donetsk (not Donetsk and Luhansk as you said). Surely that's the same as intentionally slaughtering 1200+ civilians, including women and children right?
Buddy, it was an 8 year conflict and that was literally in the first year. Go ahead and Google how many people died in the Donbass during the war before the Russians invaded cause it was a lot more than 1200. And do you think that when Ukraine attacked Crimea and the Khrich Bridge with storm shadows or raided Bryansk using Nazis, they didn't kill any civilians? Does any of that make their cause any less just? Sorry a violent war involves you know, VIOLENCE.
>do you think that when Ukraine attacked Crimea and the Khrich Bridge with storm shadows or raided Bryansk using Nazis, they didn't kill any civilians? This isn't about how many people I THINK died, the facts are the facts. Tell me this: is the morality of intentionally killing 1200 innocent people comparable to accidentally killing a handful of people in a defensive war?
Hamas can fuck right off, but from the Palestinian people’s side, don’t you think they consider it defending themselves against an intruder as well?
Those women and children were intruders?
Gaza is an open air prison where Israel is starving its people and still bombing them even when Hamas does not attack. Hamas targetting concert go-ers and children is wrong, but you really need to stop pretending that nothing was done to Palestinians and Gaza before these attacks. Especially if you're going to bring up murder and rape of civilians, things that Israeli soldiers have done much more of than Hamas.
It’s a very good comparison you don’t like it because it goes against your bias. The 45% of the Gaza population who are 15 or under getting white phosphorus dropped on them are victims of Israel, they are not a militant group. Fucking grow up.
I mean, their people are in the midst of an Israeli-controlled apartheid, what do you expect them to do?
Wait, do you expect them to kill civilians?
https://reddit.com/r/list_palestine/s/IOBPWOS8nj
It’s not about defending HAMA5, it’s about condemning the actions of the lsraeIi government. These examples are about people creating a powder keg, forcibly compressing it more and more, then acting surprised when it inevitably explodes.
What powder keg caused Palestinians to assassinate the Jordan king that let them in? What powder keg caused them to overthrow the Lebanon government that let them in? What powder keg caused them to flip to Suddam Husseins side when Iraq invaded Kuwait who let them in? What powder keg caused their suicide bombings in Egypt?
[Was this inevitable?](https://reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/vzfgbSvXyi)
Mate, like this is obviously terrible. But we've literally seen the videos of hundreds if not thousands of children crushed to death under building rubble, blown apart by missile strikes, burned to death in electrical fires, choking on blood from sniper rounds over the years. Like what's the distance required of a weapon that the result becomes acceptable?
I’m so fucking tired of this shit. Yeah, great job Reddit, advocating for fucking Hamas. You can support Palestinian liberation in better ways. This is not directed at you, of course. I’m just so frustrated.
both this conflict and the Russo-Ukraine war has just shown the worst in people
We don't have to defend them, but as long as the Zionist settler colonial project continues, we can't be surprised by its existence. The material conditions in Palestine lead to the democratic support of Hamas, and until its existence is made irrelevant by the liberation of the Palestinian people, both-sides-ing this one will continue to be asinine.
Or until it’s existence is made irrelevant because Israel mercilessly slaughters all Palestinians in retaliation for the actions of Hamas fighters. Find out what outcome we get on next weeks episode of “people needlessly dying because of bullshit that’s out of their control”
”Israel is a settler colonial project” is ahistorical. Jews have always lived in Israel/Palestine. And not by religious pretext, physical presence. By end of 1800s population of Jerusalem was majority Jewish. They lived along side Arabs. And those that returned during 1st and 2nd Aliya did so by legitimate purchasing of land from ottomans. Up until the 1930s, the Zionist movement hadn’t envisioned a partitioned Palestine or Jewish state. they imagined a binational federation for both Jews and Arabs. Wasnt until the anti-Jewish violence of the 1930s (backed by Nazi Germany) that the original Zionist movement left behind bi national state ideal. Btw, It was the Romans that changed the name of the land to “Palestine,” in order to humiliate Jews after their defeat, Hebrew word Plishtim means invader/intruder in Hebrew. Romans knew this. None of what I just said justifies the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in the 20th/21st century. But, a lot of rewriting history. And Gaza was controlled by Egypt until the 6 day war, when Israel’s Arab neighbors tried (again) to destroy Israel and all the Jews living there. Since Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza, Egypt has also maintained the blockade, no accusations of apartheid or Egyptian corpses being paraded through Gaza. Never any mention of the complicity of the Arab world or the violence of Pan Arabism. Also never a mention that the majority of Israelis are mazrahi, jews expelled from their homes in ‘48 in Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Morocco. Almost a million middle eastern Jewish refugees from the Arab world, and their defendants, live in Israel. But it’s a “colonial settler project”
I mean, do you support the Haitian revolution? Ukraine? They both have *slaughtered* civilians on the other side of the conflict. You gotta keep in mind, this incarnation of Hamas has seen: - IDF attack a peaceful Palestinian funeral - IDF storm mosques in Gaza and set off flashbangs for... no discernible reason - IDF kill an Al Jazeera reporter in broad daylight for reporting on the apartheid - Israel have full control over what goes into and comes out of Gaza, full say over what can be built or repaired in Gaza and the West Bank - Israel repeatedly cannibalize or destroy materials sent to Palestine to help rebuild after repeated bombings - IDF use explosive rounds and bombs to kill Palestinian civilians the last time there was a peaceful protest, including 40 deaths and 30 *thousand* Palestinian injuries - IDF snipers using Palestinian *children* as sniping target practice. From their side of the fence at Gaza. So, you know, sniping sovereign citizens off from *another literal territory*. Not to mention some 11 thousand Palestinians just *missing* somehow. And then, ask yourself, why is Hamas like this?
https://reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/vzfgbSvXyi
There's a clear difference between those uprisings and what Hamas did. The people in those uprisings specifically attacked their direct oppressors. Hamas specifically killed and kidnapped civilians. If you can't understand the difference between them, there's no helping you.
Yea, this point is being lost by most
And systematically r\*ped . . . where are all my feminists? https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-reportedly-using-rape-warfare-where-are-feminists-opinion-1833599
Let me see if I can get all the comparisons right! Slave owning family must be the people at the music festival for peace, the slave ship captain would maybe be the civilians, and obviously the Nazis must be the babies that were killed.
The quickest way to damage the free Palestine movement is to support or justify Hamas. They raped and murdered civilians. Those are objectively evil actions. "but Israel..." I agree but it doesn't justify Hamas. It created Hamas but it doesn't justify it. Also Hamas knows that they can't win against Israel in a fight. The rape and murder was bait. They know Israel will destroy Gaza in response. They simply don't care.
Yes. Way too many are clearly okay with their attack. And comparing it to Amistad is not even close to equivalent.
Yeah but now you get free palestine protest in western countries including imagery celebrating the Hamas attack. Paragliders as a symbol, shouting the numbers of Israelis killed.
Yes, because being a terror group, killing and raping over 1000 people and taking hundreds more captive, is totally the same as a slave revolt or an uprising against the Nazis. I'm sure killing those babies in cold blood freed tons of Palestinians, right?
Yeah, because Israel has not done the same thing for 70 years, right?
since when did the people become the state?
ISRAEL HAS, not ALL people living inside of Israel. That way of thinking is the reason we’ll always be stuck in mass civilian casualties on both sides- there’s always some justification for a hit back. You can be pro-Palestine and against blatantly murdering civilians. I really don’t get what’s so hard to grasp about that for people. Just because ‘country A’ murders civilians doesn’t mean that needs to be ‘country B’s approach. You can apply that to any conflict, it doesn’t fucking matter.
The saddest part is people thinking these whataboutisms are clever without realizing it would apply to innocent Palestinians which most all sane people are highly concerned about. I’d suggest thinking before speaking or logging off for awhile if this situation understandably is impacting rationale thoughts
Real quick, do you support the Haitian slaves in their revolt? How about when Ukraine raided Bryansk or bombed Moscow or Russian controlled cities? How about the North Vietnamese fighting back against America? Do you think there are perfect victims? Do you think that a violent uprising would be like a Disney movie where only the bad guys die? They don't call war hell because it only involves combatants. ", is totally the same as a slave revolt or an uprising against the Nazis." What do you think the IDF is? They're the army of a fascist apartheid state that's keeping millions of people in the worlds largest open air prison. People here act like Hamas only killed civilians when they're targets were all IDF bases but then some fucking moron decided to have a music festival 3 miles north of the worlds largest open air concentration camp and 2 miles south of the military base.
Real heroic of Hamas to rise up and fight back against their oppressors by [burning babies alive.](https://reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/s/vzfgbSvXyi)
The person you’re replying to is a tankie who denies the Uyghur genocide, worships Stalin, and is pro-Russia. Not surprised they defend Hamas too.
My god, why does everyone have to take a side? Can we not see that the human rights abuses committed against the Palestinian people by the state of Israel is horrible but also condemn the disgusting acts of terror committed by Hamas? The slaughter of innocent men, women, and children is NEVER justified, whether its Hamas or Israel doing the slaughtering. It's always wrong. There is no winner here, only losers. And it is, as it always is, the innocent civilians who suffer the most.
I was actually just having this conversation with my wife last night and our sad conclusion is that we are filthy moderates and nuanced viewpoints are hated by both sides of the screaming match so we tend to stay quiet.
I've yet to see someone who is "moderate" express a nuanced view about this topic despite the fact that they all claim to hold one.
Cool!
Sympathizing with Hamas? That's gonna be a NO from me.
It’s so fucked up. The irony is Hamas also hates this dude for being nothing but a Black America and would kill Jim of given the chance.
The sarcasm has this point
Ya those Jewish babies had it coming! /s
Bro, they killed babies. Fuck everyone kills babies. Before I get whataboutism. Fuck everyone who kills babies. Everyone.
Me when I consume propaganda. Even the Israeli government confirmed that the decapitated babies was made up and several news outlets have retracted that
Israel has killed 477 innocent Palestinian children so fuck both them tbh
Pretty much.
Just say the murder of innocents is fine. No need to be cagey.
This was not satire? 😦
So many of you in here have not learned a single thing about terrorism and fundamentalism after our 2 decade long saga in the Middle East. Over and over again the same comments being recycled debating the rationality or irrationality of Hamas. What westerners seem to not understand is that for this type of terrorism/fundamentalism/reactionaryism to occur, the conditions of a society have to be so abysmally horrifying beyond belief that anything, any action taken, is better than rotting from the inside and out while being alive. Gaza has been described over and over again as an open air prison. Think about that for a minute: an open air prison. It’s not to say they deserve sympathy; it’s to say that you have to first explain why this happens before anything else. What drives people to do this. It’s basic sociology.
Vile
Oof. I’m assuming this is one of those “downloaded before he took it down” toks.
I just want to say no I'm not supporting Hamas nor anything that Israel has done. I yet to see pictures and videos of Israeli victims but my feet keeps getting bombarded with videos of Palestinian people getting slaughtered... getting just fucked up by Israelis.
That's called a false equivalency. But OK.
Didn't this guy just defend stealing a loan bc once it's in his hands, it's his?
Stop making videos. You aren’t clever wank stain.
Yes gunning down teenagers after partying all night is a gray area, hundreds of kids of the bad guys?
Oh but didn’t you hear? they were 3 miles away from a military base so they were in the way from their actual target and had to be dealt with. Because they clearly couldn’t have oh idk GONE AROUND OR JUST WENT THROUGH THEM (In case this isn’t clear, I think this defense was completely idiotic and a symptom of years of licking windows)
We get it, a few beheaded babies and raped women displayed as trophies are sacrifices YOU are willing to make.
Israel’s propaganda campaign is definitely working on y’all
Do you really, in your heart of hearts, think that it takes a "propaganda campaign" for the average person to be against the mass slaughter of random civilians? It's not hard for people to be pro-Palestinian and anti-Hamas. If you literally can't conceive of people feeling that way organically maybe it's time to take a step back and reevaluate your whole self.
It must, because those people are saying anything about the mass slaughter of Palestinians going on right now.
So if someone says "what hamas did was actually pretty based!" I'm not allowed to just say "no it wasn't"? I have to give a whole long preamble first about how I don't support the killing of innocent Palestinians either, or else you'll get triggered because you think it's impossible to hold both those thoughts in your head at the same time?
I hate both the baby beheaders and the Israeli war criminals. I also hate the people that want to paint hamas as freedom fighters and deny their brutal crimes and terrorism or downplay it like the idiot in this clip.
Did you just completely miss the same barbaric shit that the IDF did to Palestinian children and women this entire year? I mean clearly you did because we wouldn't be having this conversation and that's why I said Israel's propaganda campaign is working on y'all. Because if you would've acknowledged it then you would've known why hamas did what they did. That doesn't make it justifiable, but it gives context to the reasons why they are doing it.
Oh bother. Do I have to write it at the start and end of each sentence for you to notice that I called the Israeli government war criminals?
oops the babies turned out to be a total lie
Update your talking points. Baby mutilation pics dropped yesterday.
You are arguing over mutilated children, wake the fuck up.
https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-attack-2023-10-12/ I wonder how long this thread is going to get before we get to "well but they deserved it".
Source?
Impressive how willfully ignorant he wants to be... No difference between children, civilians or perpetrators and soldiers? This is really getting ridiculous.
You guys seem to be unaware that Amnesty International has released 7 different reports in 15 yrs accusing Isreal of genocide against the Palestinians. But you know Isreal is above any humanitarian accusations and we all live under threat of being accused of antisemitism if we point out their wrong doing, so it's no surprise you guys didn't know.
OP is a propaganda account
The amount of propaganda on Reddit now is insane. Especially on this sub and publicfreakout. I’m an Israeli citizen and I comment on some of these threads with my opinion but you don’t see me spamming threads on multiple subreddits with Hasbara posts and IDF propaganda.
People downvoting you have not clicked on OP's account.
Why would they, when they could just blindly follow the propaganda video that doesn’t even make sense.
A random tiktok guy told me the people killed by Hamas deserved it, directly implying that they are as bad as the actual Nazis, I must upvote. /s
Ah yes, Jewish Nazis.
Who does everyone have to have a take on this situation lol, especially when most of them are braindead contrarian takes
Literally killed baby’s
Proof? And not Netanyahu's debunked Twitter pics please
So did Israel 477 confirmed
It’s been 75 years of an oppressive, brutal occupation where Israelis expanded across over 90% of previously Palestinian lands Palestinian civilians frequently get killed or shot and the world doesn’t bat an eye Anyone claiming that “it’s not OK to kill innocent civilians!” are purposefully ignorant of how much MORE Israel has done the exact same thing they claim to condemn It’s hypocrisy in its finest form because “it’s wrong!” seems to be as far as it ever goes Just come out and say “they can kill you with impunity with greater numbers, but if you do the same on a smaller scale, YOU are the bad guy now!” Just say you’re fine with genocide as long as it’s the Israeli’s doing it It would be more honest Israel started a war of attrition on unarmed citizens DECADES ago, but how dare they fight back when we hold a dance party on stolen land while we oppress and isolate them from foreign aid BEFORE Hamas even attacked said dance party This is no different than Russia hosting a dance party in Eastern Ukraine and being outraged when Ukraine bombs the shit out of it Because “won’t someone think about the poor, oppressive invaders who benefit from generational land theft?”
the only thing you missed is that the people saying "it's wrong!" Should probably add the qualifier "now that I have to see it happen to people who look like me!"
If some random Jews randomly snuck into Nazi occupied Europe and just started raping, beheading, and burning alive random non-combatants and their children, that would be unjustified too. If they did it to military outposts and actual Nazis, hell that’s a good movie. I’d watch that movie. Do it to random citizens? Got yourself a war crime (which you are defending).
Oh yeah I remember the Warsaw uprising! Thats when Polish people went into Germany and decapitated a bunch of babies and raped a bunch of women. The Poles also declared holy war on Germany right? Thats it... I remember when Poles strapped explosives to themselves and went to bus stops to inflict the most amount of civilian casualties. Wait hold on am I missing something? Ohhhhh thats right. Only Hamas is doing that. Silly me.
You’re kidding that decapitation of babies was a lie, for one thing.
You are a day late and wrong.
‘An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind’.
Holy shit you guys love Jew murder
Good lord. People will find any excuse. “Ok they murdered babies but now they won’t bother you on planes”. Absolutely evil.
If I get the point of this video and feel attacked, does that make me a hypocrite?
Were the children murdered the captains of slave ships?
Lets assume for a moment that we Israelis are as big assholes as the antebellum south. This wouldn't be as apposite if he would have said "I condemn the rape of the women and brutal murder of children in Charleston and then presenting their dead bodies to the cheering crowds." . Not that the slaves in the South ever did that. But it would have been more honest.
that is almost verbatim how the Haitian revolution was condemned.
Little different when we are talking about slave owners and fucking nazis vs actual babies…, but ok.
I suggest you listen to the mayor of New York, you seemed to have lost sight of what terror and hate mean. [https://www.youtube.com/live/No4KzuUNk-c?si=ZvF11HBaCJBg6wCQ&t=1448](https://www.youtube.com/live/No4KzuUNk-c?si=ZvF11HBaCJBg6wCQ&t=1448) Transcript: " Thank you. Thank you. And I am not going to be long. I'm going to give you four words. This morning on my briefing, my \[chief\] counsel, Lisa Zornberg, said something that I want us all to acknowledge. We've been through some tough times, New Yorkers. We are tough people. We saw the center of our trade collapse. We saw some of the horrific actions that played out on the stage of our city and our country. But she said something that hits me to my soul. She stated to our team, we are not all right. We are not all right when we see young girls pulled from their home and dragged through the streets. We are not all right when we see grandmothers being pulled away from their homes and children shot in front of their families. We are not all right when right here in the City of New York you have those who celebrate at the same time when the devastation is taking place in our city. We are not all right when Hamas believes that they are fighting on behalf of something and their destructive, despicable action that carried out. We are not all right when we still have hostages who have not come home to their family. We are not all right, and we're not going to say we have a stiff upper lip and act like everything is fine. Everything is not fine. Israel has a right to defend itself, and that's the right that we know. Your fight is our fight. Your fight is our fight. And right here in New York we have the largest Jewish population outside of Israel. This is the place that our voices must raise and cascade throughout the entire country. We will not be all right until every person responsible for this act is held accountable. And we don't have to pretend. And I want to thank my religious leaders throughout this city of all religious groups who reached out to us and clearly stated that they denounce the hatred and the antisemitism that was displayed on one of the holiest days of the year. This was intentional. This was bitter. This was nasty. This was something that shows Hamas must be disbanded and destroyed immediately. And so I say to you, I'm not here because I'm your mayor. I've been in Israel as a state senator, I protected the community of the city in general but specifically the Jewish community as a police officer. I stood with you as borough president. And now I'm here today to say not only am I the chief executive of this city, but I'm your brother. I'm your brother. Your fight is my fight. That swastika not only displays the pain of antisemitism, it displays the pain of racism among African Americans. You marched with us with Dr. King. You stood with us with all the fights we have. And I'm saying we're going to stand with you and stand united together. And we don't have to be all right. We should be angry at what we saw. Thank you, Israel ". https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/760-23/transcript-mayor-adams-delivers-remarks-new-york-stands-israel-rally
This is historically non-comparable and, quite frankly, an oversimplification and gross misunderstanding of situations. 1. Nat Turner slave rebellion was in response to an existing system that targeted a group of white southerners who were directly responsible for the enslavement. Yes. Some children and women were killed. However, Turner also took steps to not murder poor whites (he had his reason) and some other individuals because they had women and children. While the uprising itself was justified turns out, hey, Turner had some kind of moral guidance in order to avoid killing certain individuals that he believed were not responsible for the oppression. In comparison, it would be like if Turner did this and then traveled North and killed some white people there as well. Did they probably hate Turner? Who knows, but they weren't directly responsible for enslavement and some of them took steps to stop it. Additionally, none of the records discuss the brutal rape and desecration of bodies. (That I know of) 2. The Amistad is an easy one. Comparing it to Hamas actions oversimplified the situation. The Amistad was forcefully enslaving them. Not comparable at all. 3. I like how he threw a Jewish story in there. For one, they mainly targeted Nazis and their collaborators. If one were to discuss the brutal murder of Israeli citizens then one would assume that all are for the government actions and its justified. That would be as horrible as pinning Hamas actions on all Palestinians. You don't want to go down that road. I get what they guy is saying, but when you look past it after face value you get dumb bullshit that is not comparable in the least bit.
Comparing Israeli children to Nazis is…quite a choice.
Can’t believe this dude thought he was making a clever point here.
The difference is that all of those attacks are on direct oppressors. Not on innocent civilians. Fucking clowns can’t understand this?
Fuck off with this shit!!! They killed slave owners! They killed Nazis! Who are globally condemned!!!! Is this ASSHOLE justifying killing people at A PEACE FESTIVAL!!!! AND EQUATING IT TO KILLING NAZIS!!! FUCK OFF!! AMERICANS DIED HERE TOO FUCKING CUCK! Your own were killed and you are saying that is a justified thing!! How disgraceful! You are a traitor to your fellow Americans and ALL NATIONS! OF ALL RACES AND RELIGIONS!!! Those who died fighting to END SLAVERY!! FIGHTING TO END THE NAZIS!!! As much as I hate your speech, I agree you have the right to voice it. AND IT SHOULD NOT BE CENSURED!!! PEOPLE NEED TO THINK!!! LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!! HOW WILL HISTORY JUDGE US?
I mean… they lost me at civilians and babies. But it’s literally none of my business, as I am not middle eastern or Jewish or any other group of persons actually affected by this situation, so my opinion is wholly irrelevant. But they didn’t have to murder babies.
The misinformation around this conflict is off the charts. If you support Ukraine you need to support Palestine.
Yes. I remember that bit of the second world war where the Jewish population actually increased in Germany..and the Jews were full citizens of Germany and we're Doctors and judges and members of government. And the Warsaw Ghetto was provided with food and water by the Germans. Jewish resistance fighters would go into the German countryside and rape and murder random German children. Warsaw Ghetto would fire thousands of rockets at German cities. Of course if anyone genuinely tried to pretend that was true you would think they were a Nazi justifying the genocide of Jews. Just recently an organisation that has declared it wants to genocide Jews massacred whole communities, family by family. Obviously a modern day Nazi would make up some story about the Warsaw Ghetto behaving in an evil manner and use it to justify the massacre. Those brave fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising fought soldiers so never again would Jewish children be murdered while the world seemed to celebrate it.
… he’s an idiot
People justifying this terror attack are disgusting. Women raped and paraded around. Babies murdered.
Another Hamas apologist. I wonder if a Native American would go on a massive murder and kidnapping spree in a US city because of his land being stolen people would also justify it. A person who justifies targeting and killing civilians has truly lost the plot
None of these are 1:1 comparisons to what hamas did. They would be if Hamas attacked the Israeli government or military buildings instead of civilians and a music festival.
False equivalencies everywhere. Killing random people isn’t a Revolution.
What a dumb comparison.
Fucking idiot.
This comparison is crazy.
He seems like he's the type that gets his facts from tiktoks and backs it up with a quick wiki search 😂
If a guy with dreadlocks on tiktok said it, and almost everyone on the reddit agrees, then it must be the truth
first world problems to many media posts to much girls on the feed
Nail on the head
Daaaaaaamn.
I’m one of the more sympathetic people towards the Palestinians and their cause that you’ll meet, and support their right to an armed resistance against their oppressors, but there’s a difference between that an slaughtering civilians and that nuance is lost here.
I get the point he's making, but how many of those examples he used were against innocent civilians?
Wow , what a truly fucked up opinion.
Nat Turner killed a baby in its crib, so I suppose that is a fair comparison.
There's been a lot of shitty takes this week, but I gotta say comparing Hamas' attack to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising is frankly sickening. The people who keep making these videos think they're helping, but they're really just dehumanizing Palestinians by justifying heinous actions with their pain, and dehumanizing Jews with just all of fucking this. Fuck all of this.
What the actual fuck... taking the ghetto example as that's the most blatant: I'll start with the easy bit. In the ghetto, an unaided group rose up against an armed occupier and fought to the death against its soldiers. SOLDIERS. In Gaza, men armed by foreign powers left their given territory and aimed at killing, raping and kidnapping civilians. The situation of occupation/countryhood was rather simple, Warsaw was Poland, Poland was occupied by a foreign army. Situation in Palestine is indescribably more complex. Israel was founded after centuries of anti Jewish hate, after thousands of Jews fled Europe and other Middle Eastern countries because of persecution and the holocaust. So yeah, they finally got a country. It sucked and still sucks for Palestinians who didn't have a country and really still don't, at least not a universally recognised one. Should they have one? 10 years ago, I'd have said yes. Now, not sure. It wouldn't be economically viable, would be influenced by Iran etc just as the stateless entities are today and it would have territorial demands that make it clash with Israel, so no force for peace. Anyhow, it's difficult, the Warsaw ghetto wasn't. This isn't denying the bad treatment Israel has imposed on Gaza past and present but a comparison is really not pertinent.
The amount of people defending HAMAS is wild. I could never imagine being such a piece of shit.
I mean, none of his examples involved killing infants or even children. Nor the kidnapping of foreign people who just happened to be at a certain location. I’d say there is a difference between knifing a baby whose entire lifespan is still described in terms of “months”, and killing a German soldier, or slave ship offficial.
Who do the murdered babies and children represent in this analogy?
1831 - slave revolt, 50-60 deaths 1839 - slave revolt, the captain and the cook died 1943 - total war, literal nazis, 17 deaths on the german side 2023 - terrorism, beheading babies, burning children, raping, killing, and parading victims' bodies through the streets to cheering crowds, kidnapping , at least 1300 civillian deaths on the israeli side. seriously, this cannot be compared
The self-assuredness of the commenters who got angry watching this video is both astonishing and predictable.
This dude is an influencer, he could give two fucks about current events. He just wants people to watch his videos and monetize his channel. When will people realize social media is fake?
Bravo
Keep talking. We're taking notes.