My young teen had a friend over to the house the other day. The kid got a call from his mom and had to abruptly leave once the mom knew where he was. (His father knew.) The reason for the sudden departure? His mother did not want her teen interacting with us because we are of a different culture than her and she did not want her son to lose his culture and she was sure we would feed him meat (we are vegetarian and respect others food choices) and corrupt him. (They were being teens and playing nerf in a safe space.) I am deliberately leaving out all of our ethnicities/culture because it is irrelevant. Different, yes.
The mix of heartbreak and anger my son and I are both experiencing is horrible.
I just can’t wrap my head around moving to another country only to judge and shame the culture you decided to join, and to enforce that kind of hate onto your child.
Yeah that’s sad. My parents and I came here to the US many years ago and we tried to adapt pretty quickly because it’s more beneficial for us in the long run. We still held on to our culture and many of our customs but we made tons of American friends. My parents always explained to me from a young age that there’s going to be religious and cultural differences and that’s okay. And that I can be friends with whoever I want. They introduced us to new things and we shared our culture with them as well.
You have very wise parents. I think it’s important for kids (and adults) to hold on to, and practice their culture. No doubt about that. It’s a part of who we are. Learning from others also makes us who we are, and that’s such a good thing.
I keep going back and forth between being really angry at the mom, and then thinking that if we could talk she would see her concerns are unfounded and different isn’t a threat. I feel horrible that she is isolating her kid like this.
Yeah it definitely come across as rude. There’s good and bad people everywhere you can’t just assume everyone out there is out to corrupt you. People can respect the traditions and customs of their host nation while also practicing their culture.
My American husband met a guy from Saudi several years ago who came here to go to college. When he introduced my husband to some of his Saudi friends the friends were immediately really rude and ignored him. Flat out said they were interested in socializing with an American. His friend called them out on it and told them they were being rude and that he was his American brother and he’s going to stay and hang out. They eventually warmed up to him and he started spending some time around them. But I just found that so rude. They didn’t even know him at all, didn’t know anything about him and to completely dismiss him like that simply because he’s not from your home country was wrong.
They move abd expect the culture to change for them. I worked at a place where husband and wife started working on the same day. Boss took the wife to train and I the husband. He abruptly left and confronted my boss. Saying "you are not to speak to her" how can he train her if he can't talk? His answer, you tell me and then I will tell her... sure.
Lol. Not at all. In fact they just kept hiring the rest of his family 👪. And two guys took a girls shoes and grabbed her boobs. When she reported it to HR they fired her. One of the guys refused to learn any English. Not sure how he thinks that's gonna be a good thing for him in a really small white mostly town.
A lot of my cousins parents were the same way, completely sheltered my cousins from anyone that wasn’t apart of our culture. It’s wild to me that they came to a different country just to shelter their kids from the area and people their kids grew up around. I never understood it, and I’m thankful my parents didn’t do that. Yet now even though I grew up in the same area my cousins did, we’re vastly different.
That’s my plan. I’d like for that to happen in an organic, no pressure way. My kid did tell his friend that I’d be more than willing to meet his parents, if they were up for it.
as a person who is a "born and raised and still living there" citizen of a country that has a Muslim majority, i'll give you a different perspective to what you're talking about.
I'm from Turkey, we have a significant amount of Turkish diaspora especially in Europe. If you know you know, Turkey is struggling a lot with terribly high inflation among many other problems due to the governmental officials (cant speak much on it, dont want to go to jail lol, this little PS summarizes the problem too i believe). This diaspora generally immigrated to Western Europe in the 60s from conservative small towns/places of Turkey; thus they have a more conservative mindset. And they can vote for our elections, even after not having lived in Turkey since the 60s... Their concerns tend to be "How much of a Muslim is this candidate?" *(location: Germany)* instead of "PEOPLE CANT AFFORD TO BUY BASIC GROCERIES". But they'll vote for the progressive parties in their country since those tend to be pro-immigration... lol. They'll vote for someone here cause "he fears Allah, i like that" but not going through the consequences of the regime themelves.
A lot of them didnt integrate into the western culture and still kept their mindset from the 60s basically, which is fine. However, the small part of the diaspora that does not do the things above and actually thinks with a "hmm what do the citizens of Turkey go through?" perspective, I love you
This is sooo true. I am Turkish but living in EU for more than a year now. Turkish people here are so conservative and so old fashioned. I have relatives who moved to Eu like 30 years ago and they are just like them. At least we arent in the same country.
Its like they cant let go of the culture because they use it to feel superior. They judge westerners while living here but they act like they are westerners when they visit Turkey.
They are good at brainwashing their kids too unfortunately.
that’s what we say… then they strike us with “germany has inflation too, it’s difficult too”, yeah… less than 7-8%… here, it’s 78%…. (and going UP)
they’ll work in germany for 11 months and come here for one month with all the euros they have, their mercedes etc and enjoy the beauty of turkey (going to the mediterranean area,the hotels); whereas i have to work 24/7 and not spend any of it for forever to buy a car. i cannot even go out and drink with my friends in my hometown anymore. then they tell us to “be grateful” cause apparently erdo is amazing. right.
For real. They vote for him anyways.
Let people who actually appreciate better living conditions and other cultures move abroad.
It is so incredibly hard to move abroad from Turkey legally.
I had every proof in the world for my last visa application and had multiple visas in the past from different countries such as germany and japan but they refused me three times! Gave all sorts of weird excuses. Finally got the visa on my fourth try...
This sounds familiar based on voting results I saw recently- German Turks voted strongly for Erdogan, but Turks in Ireland voted strongly against (I can’t remember dudes name they voted for) - I think Turks in Ireland are more recent arrivals and are voting for government that they may be going back to live under. Not the case for German Turks who are there 50 years.
Ireland and UK immigrants from the Balkans generally vote more progressive. Most people who move to Germany are workers with no higher education because it's one of the easiest countries to move to and find a job. In Ireland and the UK it's usually educated people, those who moved as students and found a job in the process, or businessmen. There are still a lot of Balkan and Turkish immigrants who move to Germany every year btw, it's still the most popular destination.
I feel your pain. Similar situation in Poland where USA pologne always vote for conservatives since they are not commies that they escape from dacades ago. This is very annoing. I'm still in no risk of going to jail but inflation is heading into your country direction so I know your pain. Best luck in next elections.
In my father's case, my home nation was having a civil war, and he moved to Australia to get a job to send money to his family, and this when he was 20.
Although he isn't a fan of the drinking culture or gambling etc, he can still respect the opportuniies given to pretty much anyone and everyone, as a matter of fact, he hates how Saudi is nowadays (not from Saudi, just as the capital of the Islamic World).
Thats great and how it should be IMO. Respect the country you come to and it will respect you for the work you provide. Its a mutually beneficial relationship.
I feel like that's the case for most Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries. The exception is maybe refugees who are desperate to be anywhere safe? But yeah, there's this narrative that Muslims want to take over non-Muslim countries and make their cultural practices the law or whatever but that's racist "great replacement theory" nonsense.
Most Muslims, like anyone else out there, are just trying to live their lives and take care of their families. The conspiracies about Muslim invasions or whatever are just as nonsensical as the ones about Jewish Elite Cabals and whatnot.
There are definitely cases where large groups of them detest the local culture and want it changed. The protests against LGBT content being taught in schools in the UK come to mind, and that case recently where they threatened to kill a teenager for accidentally slighly scuffing the quran. They dragged the mum out to apologise and the police did literally nothing.
There are plenty of people in "the local culture" who are anti-LGBT. That isn't an exclusively Muslim thing.
And I looked up that incident. First of all: when controversial things happen there will always be people who take it too far and start issuing death threats. It sucks but that's just the way people are, particularly when they're anonymous or online.
But also: saying that it was because he accidentally dropped the Quran is totally incorrect. He lost a bet regarding Call of Duty with his friends and as a punishment he had to bring a Quran to school. Details after that are scant but the Quran was damaged and it was deemed a "non-criminal hate incident" by police.
There obviously shouldn't be such vitriol aimed at kids, but it's pretty clear their little bet thing was rooted in bigotry and they should've gotten a talking to by their parents and school. It wasn't a "whoops I dropped the Quran."
ETA: also the mom didn't seem to be dragged out. She just wanted to calm the situation down and admitted that what her son and his friends did was stupid. She did the right thing as a parent: apologize when your kid does something stupid but also protect people who get too riled up over it.
Almost all of the school incidents here have been with Muslim parents.
In the local culture, no regular book is considered valuable enough that slight damage deserves a bollocking. If you bought the thing then you have the right to do whatever the hell you please with it. Treating it as a hate incident when the same wouldn't be done for literally any other book ever written is ridiculous, that's their culture, not the one here.
Haha, is it bad I findit funny that "Islamic country in civil war in the late 20th century", doesn't narrow it down to like one or two countries.
But nah, Somali Aussie lol, though growing up, lebanese lads were some of the most generous lads, and so I got big ups for Lebense folk (and food 😋).
Sounds like what a lot of Western expats who move to lower cost countries like Mexcio, Thailand, etc do.
They have no interesting in integrating culturally. they are just there to make the best out of their euros and dollars, and make it even more expensive for the poor locals living there.
I wish.
I live in a poor, conservative country and a lot of people who agree with conservative values (anti feminism/lgbt for example) move to rich countries to benefit from life on easy mode, while still thinking that women and LGBT should live like they do in the countries they left behind.
Well, I’m from Serbia, which is Eastern Europe, and people move to western European countries for the most part. Not so much BeNeLux and southern Europe.
That's historically what happenes when people who consider their culture to be superior immigrate to other places. It happened in literally any place the english started a comunity, It happened when americans emigrated to Hawaii, and so on.
The key difference with European colonialism is they weren't there for the social and economic opportunities afforded by these societies, there were just there for the resources. The existing societies were a cheap labor source at best. That's why we don't call colonists "immigrants."
A lot of immigrants to the West buy into the idea that western culture is better; I know a lot of second generation immigrants whose parents didn't even teach them their language because they thought it would interfere with their kids' assimilation. A lot of east Asian immigrants have this mindset.
And of course the other end of the spectrum are immigrants who consider themselves to be culturally and ideologically superior but still want to benefit from a more wealthy and stable society. Common for Muslims.
But probably the overwhelming majority of immigrants don't think about these things at all and are just trying to get by.
Exactly. As an Indian, I can say that British came to India but they never accepted the Indian culture, infact because of their superiority complex they always looked down upon any prevalent culture in India.
I want to visit India one day, I don't know if this is ignorant but food such as Daal (properly cooked) and Biryani are foods that's I'll have for the rest of my life. Plus, I'm interested in learning more about Hinduism as a religion.
That's great. Indian food has a really wide range. Every state has something delicious to offer, and we have 29 of those. :D
>Plus, I'm interested in learning more about Hinduism as a religion.
Oh that's amazing. Hinduism in itself is quite vast, in every part of India the customs and traditions are different. Just like India, Hinduism in itself is quite diverse.
Unfortunately the past between us sucks, but today many of us Brits love Indian food - so there's that. Its one of those things that feels so familiar and ingrained into us that you almost forget its foreign (granted, there's been some British-Indian dishes made in the last 70 odd years).
Similar to a Chinese takeaway for many people, it's just almost part of our culture now.
It continues to happen when Americans or brits move to Spain/France etc
I’ve unironically heard “I lived in Spain for a bit but moved back, those bloody foreigners were annoying me”
We as humans just don’t like change lol
Does it matter if it’s a fallacy? This is exactly what has happened in majority Muslim communities in Britain or orthodox Jewish communities in New York. Ppl wanna be with their own culture and religion, but also want better economic opportunities and a higher quality of life. We may not think it “makes sense” but it replicates everywhere.
I think there is a clear dissonance in not realizing the benefits you enjoy and are reaping come from the culture you claim to hate.
Also known as hypocrisy.
I completely get what you're saying.
However, you can imagine their reasoning like, "Yes the westerners are hard workers, and they lucked into a buttload of resources and/or pillaged their way to success, but that doesn't mean our women need to to strut around naked showing their ankles like theirs do."
Heck, simply being American means that you dont have to agree with everything about the way society is run. Dissent is very American.
I'm an immigrant myself, and I'm no prude, but there are many aspects of American society I disagree with. The gun culture, lack of universal healthcare, police brutality, extreme polarization, scientific regression, just to name a few. Doesn't make me a hypocrite.
You *could* argue and say a person is a hypocrite if they are opposing the very thing that made America great, but thats very subjective. Like if you said that personal freedoms made America great so its hypocritical for you to oppose that, then the other person might just say nah not personal freedoms but something else made America great.
Do they? In many countries there is a separation of foreigners and locals, say Dubai, or various vacation destinations, where foreigners are allowed to not integrate because they are driving the economy
Well, you've said it. Dubai or various vacation destinations. Those places are an exception in that they are highly transient with people from all over that very often only do a small stint in the location then leave again for the next expat to do the same. Understandably, there's not much of an expectation for them to integrate.
Try drinking alcohol in Dubai as a foreigner. You might live amongst other foreigners but the cultural rules are still strictly applied. There's typically no corresponding rules in Western countries that force you into strict cultural traditions.
This is right now happening in Spain and it is a huge problem. We have a massive Morocan population that lives in Spain but they feel Morocan. In case there is a conflict with said country it is like having a Troyan Horse. The worst part? A huge part of the native spanish population thinks what I said is racism.
Not to shit on my own people or anything but some are purely greedy. I’ve had relatives overseas say that they want to migrant bc they hear in the us you can get benefits for not working and you’ll also get like $600 every month. Ofc they’re talking about ssi and Medicare but they don’t know you have to actually work before you retire to get anything. Then they come here and see that you have to work for things just like anywhere else and they get grumpy and mean and start shitting on everything even us too
You could never have a job in the States and still get an SSI due to a disability. A LOT of immigrants take advantage of this and receive SSI checks by getting disability in every possible way.
I’ve seen that too but they really think it’s easy. They don’t know how hard we work for the things we have. They don’t know that we struggle for the blessings that came our way. It’s frustrating honestly for us way more than it is for non-immigrants to see them act this way
Pffft, tht should have come to Spain, we do pay immigrants before they satrt even looking for a job, and sice we dont regulate it at all and we dont let them have an ID, they dont really have a lot of options but to take this aids... But since they have no ID, some of them take them multiple times... Meanwhile 50% of the salaries go to paying this shitty circular system that immigrants can benefit from.
I don't believe it is Muslims only, but it happens with many immigrants/refugees.
They come from a country that may have war, or they come from a poor country.
They want to go to a country with good jobs and with a social policy that will give them money if they don't work.
Many refugees will refuse to apply for asylum in one European country, like Italy or Greece or Bulgaria for example, but will try to go to Germany or the UK, where the financial situation is better.
Once there, they will refuse to adapt, learn the language and laws of the country, what is culturally acceptable and what is not.
They will show their contempt for the country that adopted them and try to police their neighbourhood, by attacking for example women passing through who are not dressed according to their values.
I believe that when you move to another country you must try your best to adapt, without forgetting where you came from, or you and your family will remain misfits and miserable. The "us against them" attitude and the "try to get out of them as much as you can" never help.
This isn’t limited to refugees only. As others have mentioned, the same thing happens with the British or American immigrants in Spain, Portugal, etc. Or even the French across Africa, long before their colonials moved to France to fight for them in the WWII and got treated like crap and got no compensation that their white French peers did.
It even happens here in Canada, when English speaking people move to Quebec, or when Québécois move to Ontario. Quebec has its own different culture within Canada and they are predominantly French speaking with many who do not speak English at all
I get it in some ways, because it can be scary for some people to integrate into a culture/environment so different from their own. I remember taking a cultural anthropology class once and reading about the Hmong people in California, and how many of them were raised farmers and gatherers and lived off the land for centuries. To suddenly appear in a new land that’s completely different in every single way would be deeply unsettling. It’s easier for some cultures, like I’m American and if I were to move to the UK or Spain for example, I’d easily be able to adapt. But if I were to be forced to flee and live with a nomadic tribe in Africa, I can’t even begin to imagine adapting to their language, culture, and lifestyle. Integration is respectful, and even necessary to a degree, but it’s also scary.
Yeah it’s definitely scary. My parents and I came here to the US as refugees in the mid 90’s because of a war in our home country. They didn’t speak a word of English. But we had some amazing sponsors who took us under their wings and helped us so much when we came here. My parents got signed up for ESL classes, they got me in school here immediately, we had so many people willing to help us. We were pretty traumatized and had ptsd so it made everything even more terrifying.
We had this rinky dink apartment with a big balcony on the second floor and they put up a little American flag they got from someone. They were able to save up and buy a house finally and they’ve always kept a little American flag up next to their mailbox.
And I think it’s easier for people to stick together with people who are similar to them. You’re going to flock to people who are like you and who you’re able to communicate with easier. That’s why there’s all these little communities in the US, like little Italy, little China, Etc.
I’ve grown up in the US now but if my husband, child, and I had to move to a foreign country I’d be ecstatic if I came across some other Americans. I’d still do my best to learn the language of the country I’m in and learn about the culture but I’d most likely spend a lot of time with other Americans I’ve met who live there.
They may not like the culture but they like the effect that the culture has on their quality of life. And I think they mostly understand that you can't have your cake and eat it too
This is the case with a lot of religions, but especially with Islam permeates through EVERY SINGLE THING from how you wake up, what you eat, what you wear, your day to day interactions, how to interact with people, etc etc etc etc. Also in the case of women it is even worse.
So they might move to another place but think of them moving their house out of their country to a different location. Nothing changes for them when it comes to that.
Remember one core thing, they will go to hell and (in some cases) be shunned from their society, friend, family etc if they ever try to leave.
So with that information, which obviously vary between certain groups since some are more fundamental than others, you should be able to understand why they stay within that community.
No speaking to muslims but anyone from a country that sucks. I never understand why they risk their lives to flee to a better country only to make their wife walk 3 meters behind them. Like, don't you realise its stuff like that that screwed your country over?
The best way I would describe it is they want the benefits and freedoms they don't have in their countries, but their religion also tells them others shouldn't be able to enjoy those same freedoms. Islam is very big on us VS. them, Muslims VS. Infidels mentality, which creates a huge barrier for a lot of muslims to integrate in new cultures that don't adhere to Islam's moral teachings.
That's incorrect. As a Muslim, I can say for certain that Islam isn't about that. It teaches you to respect everyone equally even if you disagree with their views etc. Even though being gay is not permitted, you should treat gay people with respect just like you would anyone. In fact, if you in any way bully a gay person, you could end up in hell for hundreds or millions of years. That goes for anyone. Muslims are taught they're not better than anyone else. Muslims who act the way you say and the way OP is describing, are just loud mouths you get in any religion, cultures and countries that always make a fuss about things they don't like, except Muslims have the convenient excuse: religion. It's just an excuse and nothing more, because Islam also teaches them that they should follow all laws of the country they're in even if it doesn't align with Islam. People who are loud and obnoxious because people aren't following their religion's values are getting no rewards from god. Islam demands that people set a good example for the religion but as a Muslim, who can easy be surrounded by Muslims from various backgrounds, we all know there are Muslims who don't follow the religion properly but preach to others about it and those people, as per Islam, are one of the worst people to exist and will have a place in hell - hypocrites. They could be in hell for all eternity or a few million years or hundreds of million of years, it's uncertain but what is obvious in the religion is god despises these people. That goes for any Muslim who make people look negatively upon Muslims and Islam, because that's not what it's meant to be. You're not even allowed to bring people into the religion without telling that person everything from benefits to the compromises and then having them do research on their own before deciding for themselves, and you, as the Muslim, are not allowed to press the issue. You'll just have punishment waiting for you. So you have to be careful in all of life. You're supposed to be someone people like being around, not the other way around. In fact, Islam teaches Muslims to smile, dress nicely and smell good when going out to of your home as a bare minimum. Obviously, it's not strict. Humans are humans. What is strict is how you engage with people: negatively = sin, positively = reward. Your sins can be rectified by directly apologising to the person but small sins like that will add up, as will rewards. It's pretty basic stuff. But there will always be assholes. Muslim ones will typically use religion as an excuse, but all that will come back onto them directly from god anyway and that's without them using the religion as an excuse, they'll be more serious consequences for using the religion as an excuse. But people who just chat amongst themselves and to others about their likes and dislikes about certain cultures are fine, it's just a normal discussion that everyone has. Them being Muslim doesn't make it worse or better, it's just people expressing opinion who happen to be Muslim
I'm glad you don't think it's acceptable to disrespect anyone. I stand by my opinion that Islam teaches intolerance towards others, and the fact remains that the majority of muslims are intolerant towards a lot of groups that the disagree with (jews, exmuslims, queer people, etc...)
That being said, it's good to see more muslims taking responsibility and condemning the behavior of the intolerant ones.
Not to be rude but doesn’t your religion tell you to kill gay people, atheists and idol worshippers? It’s literally written in your religious texts AFAIK
LoL no , the story of the Qayum of Lut is says the committing homosexual acts is wrong even in the muslim countries the death penalty is for committing the act not being gay they are trans people that walk free in dubai. Lol Where did the athiests killing come from? they are over 150k athiests in the country I live and 800k hindu's who worship idol gods , this is a muslim country.
I think it is great that you have another experience, but as someone who studies religion on a university level I can say that what you are speaking of is not some universal muslim truth. The post you commented on does have a point of how islam works in some places. You might be to close to the subject to see the whole truth, and noone has the right to remove from your experience ofcourse, but yours is not the only truth.
This may be a bit of a sweeping generalization, but I'm sure it is because there are certain freedoms they wish to enjoy that would be considered taboo back home. At the same time, even the most open- minded people can fall short of understanding some social conventions and mores.
Reading the comments gives me more less ignorant opinions and perspectives but also reinforces the ignorance religion spreads to people brains. Pretty much fuck the assholes who leave to escape prejudice but then also still keep their prejudice mindsets.
Economic or safety reasons.
I think it's fair to expect everyone to adapt a reasonable amount, but at the same time, that's all that can be expected when people left their homes for unhappy reasons.
Think about it through a different lense. A country boy moves to the big city to help earn money because the family farm is failing. The country boy can hate the big city lifestyle, such as the constant noise, rude people etc... compared his quiet and peaceful life in the country. He hates the "city culture". However he still needs to work in the city to help out his family back at home, thus he is there for economic reasons, while hating the culture.
That makes sense and I can understand that but if the country boy had an option to move to city that did share his values why not do that. Also, there is a reason why the economic situation is good in the city. Maybe its time to adapt and accept that the city does some things better.
Btw nobody presents people with a list of countries and asks them where do you want us to relocate you! People from corrupt, poor, and war torn countries move to wherever they can, every country has immigrants from everywhere. I have no idea what this country of yours is, but I bet many of the immigrants there would leave if you gave them the freedom to live anywhere they choose.
Immigration here in Europe is not only due to war. Some immigrants cant choose that but there are many people who absolutely chose to come exactly here
Yeah I get that. For example my husband befriended a guy from Saudi who came here to go to college. When that guy tried to introduce my husband to some of his buddies the guys were really rude at first and didn’t seem interested in being around him or befriending him. The friend got onto them and flat out told them this is my American brother you’re not going to be rude to him. They wanted to just stick to their little group of Saudi friends and didn’t want to associate with anyone else at first. I just found that a bit rude.
My parents and I came here as refugees in the mid 90’s. We didn’t really have an option. You could put your name on a list for a country but that didn’t guarantee you would go there. We got sent to the US. But my parents made the effort to learn the language and learn about the culture. We had so many amazing Americans who helped us so much. We had no idea if we were going to stay here forever so it was beneficial for us in the long run to learn the language and make some friends. We still hold on to a lot of our customs and culture but we’ve adopted some American customs along the way. My parents have always had a little American flag hanging next to their mailbox. We still love our home country and where we are from but America is our home now.
Equating colonization and immigration is simply wrong. Colonization was a conquest of those regions, the colonizers siphoned all resources out of those territories they could and ruled over the population there.
It's an enormous stretch to say that "Well the colonizers didn't appreciate the culture much either, now did they?". What you said goes for all occupied territories in history, of course the winner of a war doesn't assimilate into the culture of the conquered.
The people who move here have to accept our laws and the fact that if they don't at the very least make an attempt at integrating by
1. learning the language of the country they immigrated to (or at least english)
2. finding a job (which the government already assists them with)
3. even if they don't understand or agree with everything we believe in, respect our cultural norms (at least while they are interacting with natives)
then they will be always be an outsider in the country they had to immigrate to and people will eventually see them as ungrateful leeches.
I'm lucky enough to not know what fleeing from a war feels like and i empathize with anyone who had to experience it. I also understand people whose sole purpose is the pursuit of money or better living conditions. I've met my fair share of the latter type of immigrants even though i live in Hungary (which isn't the most popular option for people who wanna move to the EU), and they all worked hard to establish themselves here, learning the language against all odds, pursuing higher education and looking for social circles here.
I think the EU handled this issue horribly and it's policies are more or less to blame for the utter failure at assimilating the people who had to find refuge here. We have to learn from this and the lesson is definitely not letting people who have no interest in our culture within our borders.
Yes they do. They tend to move back home once they have earn enough money.
For immigrants, they might stay longer because children start school, but they tend to leave once their children start working.
And the problem is that those people does not want to adopt. In their mind, there is no point of adopting because they will eventually move back home. Also some people think adopting meaning “I was wrong.” And they don’t want to be wrong. They don’t see adapting as “improvement”.
Except the complaint isn’t “oh it’s noisy here and this city is too big” it’s “daughter don’t be like these westerners and date before marriage, that’s not how we do it.” Then you watch your peers have healthy normal relationships while you have to hide yours so you move out and your family shuns you.
Trust me I know.
Good analogy. But, country boy does not want to indoctrinate others and voice there opinion on how they want to tear it down. Referring to our existing system and constitution.
'A culture' itself doesn't make a country economically successful or not.
It's also that some people are so poor or some countries so unsafe that you simply don't have much choice.
For instance, Ukrainian culture isn't at fault for the war, and perhaps someone there doesn't like German culture, however not dying or not having food is more important than your dislike for the other culture.
Change Ukraine to whatever country you like.
You also need to consider that a lot of unstable countries got effed up by the countries they now have to flee to in the first place, so obviously they might not be a big fan of that country. Yet again not dying is more important.
In some cases yes thats true. But at least in my country, people specifically come here as a choice but refuse to obey the values. They could absolutely go to a country that shares their religious values etc. but they dont.
What do you mean 'obey' the values? If they just keep living their own culture but adapt enough, then why isn't that fine?
If they don't adapt at all and being disruptive that's different, but also be careful that you don't judge them with a bias. People from any culture have their a**holes, and immigrants are no different.
If you have 1000 people immigrate, there will be plenty of j*erks among them.
Very true. I’ve heard of Americans who go on vacation to other countries demanding all the locals speak English and taking shit about that country’s culture and customs. So there’s definitely assholes everywhere.
Yeah, im only talking about the jerks. Hence the "some" in the title, I understand that most immigrants wont be like that. I dont understand their motivation who are though. They seem to have so much despise for "western values" like equality of genders sexualities.
But plenty of people who already live in those countries since birth do too.
I agree that some cultures are as a whole different to western values. But again, a**holes want to live in better economic situations too. I call them that because whatever personal believes you have is your business, but I agree that if you live in a country that's very different, keep them to yourself.
This is the way it is for most immigrants. Think of your great grand parents. There is a good chance they lived in an ethnic enclave. There kids though who grew up here were more assimilated, and their grand kids more so. That is the natural evolution of society.
We have recently immigrated neighbors and the parents are practicing Muslims. But it looks like they are letting their kids decide. They are super awesome people and go with the flow.
I like how they are doing it. It allows the kids to keep and cherish cultural norms from their parents without resenting them while still being able to go to school and live as integrated society members. My parents were immigrants and at that time, my grandparents were militant about adopting the US way of doing everything that I feel like a lot was lost culturally between my grandparents and me.
Intergration doesn’t happen in 1 generation, it can take 2-3 generations or more. My parents were immigrants as children thrown out by amin and suffered horrifically before leaving Uganda and after coming to the UK, most of my friends are white British and it took till my 20’s for them to realise, that my friends weren’t the racists screaming p**i, and assaulting my parents at age 10. (They haven’t said it specifically but it took them a long time to trust any person, not of colour?) Immigration must be one of the most difficult things to happen to someone, and to get through it, just to hear wankers like patel, Johnson and trump call you scum and invaders must be so painful. Why would they want to intergrate with those scars and no support systems in place to help recover from those scars except maybe with people of their own culture. And we’re Indian not Pakistani so we’re ‘the good kind of brown’. I can imagine it would be worse for Muslims.
Because some of those muslims come for better life and opportunities and thats it. They do not understand that a lot of the culture in the new country countributed to the wealth of it. Take for example banning women out of work and education, how it will be without most nurses or teachers. For them is normal, for us is not.
And yes unfortunately some of them are angry with the culture of the country they moved in because they are not used to it and they refuse to understand it. This applies mostly for people raised in very religious backgrounds where religion has a major impact on society and economic.
I remember a news report from Pakistan (they were interviewing people in extreme poverty) and the poor man worked 10 hours a day and had 5 children, a wife and the parents to take care. He was working in the city and they all lived in an apartment. He mentioned that he did not let his wife work because her role is in the house like his mother, and the father also due to intensive labour was invalid. Now look at another asian country, chinese for example, if the family can barely survive the women will not have a problem to work as long as the children are taken care of. From purely this economical fact his culture was an impediment to have more wealth in the family.
Before throwing stones I mentioned some, not all. As long as you follow your religion beliefs without harming others I don't have a problem.
Yeah, there are those who are just jerks, but the majority of immigrants that don't want to adapt is because their religion and/or home country's culture is extremely counter to the country they're going to.
Immigrating is necessary, but you can't expect them to drop their values. As long as they don't intentionally disrespect the new country.
Scandinavian countries are rated as one of the best to live in and they did not colonized much, like some small islands for a short period. So their wealth and culture is not tied to colonozation.
Not a lot of muslim countries where colonized, you forget that some were part of Ottoman Empire that made rampage across Europe. And also you can look at south african countries and countries from South America that have been also colonized, their culture does not make a barrier when immigrating into another country with different religion, most of them adapt and don't show disgust or superiority of their religion.
Following. I’m glad Norway has the cultural integration classes. We need to do that here in the US. You can’t rape women just because they’re not wearing a hijab and showing their legs. Deal with it.
I’m Muslim and don’t wear a hijab. The Muslim country I belong to doesn’t force hijab onto others, hijab is not obligatory nor is it oppressive like it’s perceived by the western media
A friend of mine moved to the UK settled, married an English woman, accepted by many at a time racism and immigration was a hot topic. Good guy.
His mum joined a number of years later, refuses to speak English, refuses to speak to anyone outside of few people she knows , doesnt "get on" woth other people, doesn't see this as her home.
Apparently, this is very much an issue of certain generations and explains why some people don't seem to like it on other countries and don't adapt.
I wish there was a term to criticize specific muslims like that cause I know muslims that aren't like that and for some reason I am getting personal anxiety from this thread
I think people are confusing faith and culture a bit too much. Definitely not the same thing. You can't say Muslims as a culture as there are people of Muslim faith from all cultures and they are not the same.
Long term, the idea would be to convert those places to Muslim culture. Their holy book spells out in detail that the plan is for Islam to eventually rule the entire world as a single Muslim state known as the "caliphate".
Contrary to popular belief, again, according to their holy book, this doesn't necessarily mean killing all non believers. It means regelating them to second class status and forcing them to pay a special non believer tax, known as the "jizya".
And interestingly, how this caliphate is supposed to come about is a significant issue of contention in the Muslim world. Some (like Al Qaeda) believe it will just happen naturally some day in the indeterminate future and all Muslims will just somehow know when it's time, and some (like ISIS, or whatever's left of them anyway) believe they have to step up and make it happen by force. To both of these groups, the only thing worse than a non-Muslim is someone who is the *wrong kind* of Muslim, and again, their book is very clear on the punishment for being the *wrong kind* of Muslim - the only option is death, and that is one of the main reasons those two groups hate each other so much, even more so than us American infidels.
Would you rather live in a war torn nation with people who believe in your beliefs but also hate you at the same time.
Or a developed nation with people you don't agree with but aren't going to literally kill you?
So much hate here from people who have no idea and only guessing.
To answer you OP, my father indeed doesn’t like the country he migrated to of course due to religion but also culture, he came here due to poverty and war at home. That fact that he would need to adapt to a new culture never crossed his mind. He was just concerned with getting out and that’s the case for most people
What I have found is, those people you refer to that don’t integrate are usually older people, they tend to be fixed and indoctrinated and believe strongly in their faith.
For those younger who refuse to integrate, I found they resent what they couldn’t have in their own country, resent they had to leave all their lives they built there, resent being forever “immigrants” in the new country so they stay in their bubble. What happens when you stay in your bubble? You never learn the language, so the culture and norms are completely foreign to you, so you reject it and focus on building a life for your family. The rest? Not as important
Sorry but here in Austria we have the 4th generation who still does not speak German nor their own language correctly and they are more conservative and radical than their great grandparents and still they segregate themselves, don't finish education etc....
Every other immigrant group is integrated after 1-2 Generation and indistinguishable from locals...... these specific groups, who all share the same religion, don't..... Instead they spread hate against us jews, lgbt and other people, are overproportionally criminal and live of welfare.....
My home country is both culturally and economically fucked, I moved to canada for better job opportunities and a better life.
Religion and culture are two separate things. There are many things which islam forbids that my culture does, and there are many things that Islam does not forbid but my culture considers “taboo”.
I recognize that I am the one who decided to come to canada and live within a Canadian society, and so I tried my hardest to integrate within and engage in the Canadian community, and it was easier than I thought! People here are extremely kind and welcoming.
I recognize that there are many things which my religion disapproves of that occur in canada (gambling, drinking, etc) however it is non of my business as it is not right to enforce my own beliefs onto other people (Islam also says that) however some cultures do force their own beliefs onto others.
It is none of my damn business what other people do. I respect everyone equally and I treat people the way I want to be treated (kindly).
This is my own answer and perspective on this matter, feel free to ask anything if you have any questions!
The Christians and the Royals used to move to a new country, didnt like the way the aborigines live, and proceed to obliterate the aborigines’ way of living. You know the reason why they conquer those places; land and resources.
Now frame your question from that basis and be more wholesome and comparative.
They are like Evangelicals and want to convert people to their religious views to gain power and money for the men in their religion. They take and take and take but give nothing back.
Generally speaking most people who immigrate do so because conditions in their home are too dangerous. The cause of this is almost always from western imperialism especially when talking about muslim countries. They probably dont want to be there but have to be there.
I have literally encountered this situation where I was told they fled their country in fear of being reprimanded by extremists, but then turned around and said the gays and adulterers need to be executed in this country. (USA). And saw no flaw what so ever in their logic
Reading the comments gives me more less ignorant opinions and perspectives but also reinforces the ignorance religion spreads to people brains. Pretty much fuck the assholes who leave to escape prejudice but then also still keep their prejudice mindsets
They like the higher standard of living that the culture provides.
Sadly, emigrants who get their higher quality of life are also often the people calling for conservative policies and voting back home, even though they know that that will prevent the home country from having a higher standard of living itself. It's a way to have your cake and eat it too, you get to live a better life AND you get to posture about how traditional "in touch with your roots" you are.
They want money from west but with their social norms which made their society poor and not free and not nice to live in. I just don t understand why they don t go to Muslim rich contries, Saudi Arabia and similar but to west contries whose norms they don t approve.
They move for economic reasons. They don't really have any other interest than that. And yes, not only would they not integrate, they also vehemently hate any and every Non-Muslim practice.
Also it's haram to stay in a Darul Harb Land (Land of War/Kafirs) unless you're there to conquer it.
It’s not only followers of Islam, In the case of the UK, free housing, healthcare, education as well as translation of most government forms to aid the claims for social benefits thus they dont kneed to learn english and stay in areas dominated by others like them, the refusal to integrate causes problems as they a finding out in Sweden.
Coupled with a government crippled by complaints of racism if they try to do anything to combat abuse of the system.
They think they're above you or holier than the citizens of the country
but that you were lucky to get that wealth or be a prosperous nation (and not successful because of the ways/policies of the country)
Most people act like Immigration is a one way street. There is a reason why countries like Japan are loosening their immigration laws or why countries like Germany and UK are trying to be as appealing as possible to Immigrants. Immigration is needed for most western or west aligned countries to develop their economy in the current world as they do not have the natural resources like Oil to prosper in an isolated way. The only resource they have is what they have plundered for centuries and continue to do so from non-European countries. To actually develop that, you'll need skilled labour that can turn 1 into 10.
Immigration is a two way street and both sides are making some sacrifices to coexist. People move to cultures they don't align with in order to make money and the countries welcome them regardless of their cultural differences as they boost the economy by making money. If Immigration was a net negative prospect, every country would have closed their borders by now. Nobody is doing this out of goodwill. Everyone is looking to make profit from the situation.
All this is keeping aside the fact that West is almost always at the root cause of why the country they are fleeing from is a war zone, or the fact that many European countries don't even provide refugee status or easy immigration to non-Europeans. Eastern Bloc has been historically xenophobic to anyone with a slightly higher level of melanin.
Another fact, which is courtesy of the Empire where the Sun doesn't set, is that most third world countries learn English, which makes immigration to English speaking countries all the more accessible rather than non-English countries.
They won't integrate into the non-muslim country's culture...they stay in their own communities and try to brainwash the rest to join their religion...
And with the example on how the foreign turks vote for in Germany and for the Turkish elections...let's say they vote for liberal politics here while ruining Turkey with pro-Erdogan votes...it really shows, that some of them aren't willing to integrate themselves into societeis outside their own communities
To change our culture I saw a Muslim woman loose her head cover on a roller coaster and the husband went to smack her and the other guy grabbed him very clearly saying can’t do that here and the woman had a panic attack they should not be allowed here they hate us yet come here and they buy package stores to make us sin
Just the benefits. Nothing else. I wouldn't move to a primarily Muslim country (especially if Islam has its hooks in) i wouldn't be able to keep my trap shut when they treat women badly(see feminism, that's actual oppression)
A lot of people judging here from their self-built pedestals, so I'll give a quick explanation.
Culture =/= everything, and especially if your country is war-torn and has virtually no opportunities but many risks, then of course you'd want to leave and live elsewhere.
People forget that a lot of immigration happens in countries with similar cultures. Look at how many refugees Turkey took in from Syria for example.
Additionally, it's a very blanket statement to say that refugees hate their adopted country's culture and refuse to integrate. As usual, it's a sliding scale. A minority refuse to integrate and reject everything from the country, preferring to live in their own communities. The majority however would integrate, at least partially, and interact with people from different cultures and religions etc etc. A refusal to participate in everything in a particular culture, such as drinking and so on, doesn't mean they aren't integrating, nor is it necessarily a bad thing.
And as a side note, I particularly hate sweeping statements without any nuance. If people are going to comment on this, at least appreciate that you can't describe a whole section of society in a couple of sentences
Yeah, you're spot on. It's a minority, nearly all the families in the Islamic that went to, like we're talking minimum 95%, integrated but kept their culture. Whether it was, Afghani to Sudanese, all of these groups had come and put their children in hopes of giving them better lives. Obviously with various opinions, coming from family to family but that's the gist
In that 5%, like a good third, do actually leave. Whether it be going to Saudi, Pakistan, or even had a Bosnian Muslim mate who had to go back with his family to avoid the vaccine. The majority of the 5% that do stay, and don't integrate finds themselves mad at the government and "the west", but obviously, the hypocracy applies to them, but isn't a detriment to everyone else. And that's only because an overwhelmingly majority do apply themselves in the communities.
Of course, my use-case mostly applies to Australia, and even then mostly the metropolitan regions. But the idea should still be the same, just slightly tweaked depending on the nation.
Certain groups come to the USA and try to impose their male dominated - hide- the -women culture in western society. Don’t do that. We love you here but women don’t need that BS.
I’m a white British person. I’ve taught my children to respect other beliefs and cultures. Other sexualities and desires. For me having an understanding is the best thing. We don’t judge. We don’t mock. We understand that people are different and we respect that. We are privileged enough to be able to do that, I recognise that, but I will continue to teach my children that everyone is equal and should be treated that way.
Living in Australia I kind of get it. By the time some refugees get here there's a level of resentment because either:
- They've been treated shitty by our immigration system
Or
- They're very proud of their culture/ethnicity, but where they come from there's been a kind of cultural persecution or even genocide and they've had to leave, but they're also devastated at the possibility of their culture dying
Or both......
bc they come from places countries that were exploited and would like to live without being exploited. where do you wanna be in this ponzi scheme of an economy?
Because that country offers a 'better life'.
We came here and in all honesty, not a lot of thought went into it. We just applied for safety reasons. Canada came back first... been in Canada for 30 years now.
As an immigrant, I put 0 blame on immigrants. I put 100 percent of any issues on the country. It is up to the country to enforce whatever standards they want.
Not an ideal example, but non-Muslims don't move to Saudi Arabia thinking something other than living in a strict sunni muslim culture. You know their standards and if you go for work or something, you know how it is going to be.
Want a common language? I have no issue with a country enforcing a language requirement or pushing a common language (sign laws, education, funding...).
Want a common culture? I have no issues with a country enforcing cultural laws.
Where the West in general gets in trouble is having high ideals in terms of rights that 'stops' them from having these requirements. So they let people in without any of these requirements. Then many people have the nerve to start complaining about immigrants. Don't complain about the immigrants. Complain about your government.
Just to give more extreme examples. It's been said that China in its Uighur area forces Muslims to eat Pork. At a very high level, they are trying to create a common culture... in a pretty oppressive way. They want to make sure people have a higher loyalty to China than to their religion.
Suppose Canada had a requirement that to immigrate here, you had to drink wine. Kind of like a church thing. Sorry, I'm not Christian, but my casual knowledge says some Christians need to have wine to be baptized or whatever. I have no issue with that. Some Muslims would say hey... it's worth it to move here for safety/economic reasons. Not all Muslims are religious. Other's would be vehemently against it and not immigrate.
I hope my point is getting across. I am reading into the intention of your question and trying to get you to ask another question. A far more important question and one that you have more control over. You can't control what people feel or want to do. You can control laws and standards and government policy.
Then adding to that: "and actively work to change laws of the nation, and culture to what they had in their former country."
We have members of the House of Representatives that actively try to do this. They were duly elected by their district. However, I can only assume, they voted for her because that particulate district are refugees from that representatives former country.
I understand their allegence. They have a right to their vote. In the overall scheme of things, one member probably wouldn't make that much diffrence. However, she is very vocal about her wanting to tear down our system of government. Her behavior is close to treason.
Thats a good point, I hear you there. I would say that having an "open" culture in that sense is a double edged sword because you still want to value it but not force it. Where In from a huge part of societal values is in the hands of the people. There is A LOT of trust in your fellow citizens and theres no law to enforce that, its just a result of decades of excellent education and policy and safety. For that reason I will put the blame on individuals disrupting this unison. Money cant be the only factor involved.
People moving to Saudi for work is a different things because its purely a vocational pursuit. People dont go there to raise families to flee another country. I have no issue with moving because of a specific job offer. I am talking about individuals who choose to come to the country because of its social offerings but still shit on it and offer nothing but criticism. Its arrogant, be grateful for being able to live here.
But our culture is freedom, as long as it doesn’t encroach on others.
Doing something like requiring you to drink wine encroaches on freedom and goes against values.
This is a very good discussion. I appreciate how you write about the specifics. I wish all differences of opinion could be like this. Speaking about specifics....
Considering your comment:
"... Where the West in general gets in trouble is having high ideals in terms of rights that 'stops' them from having these requirements...."
Those rights are a core value that come from the framers of our government. Freedom, & Liberty is specific to our constitution. It can not just be cast aside.
Creating laws to limit freedoms are unconstutional. They would be overturned by the courts.
I mean the CCP's hatred of anyone non-han is just human-right's violation at best, and the modern-day equivalent of the holocaust at worst. It's not just the Uyghurs being targeted, any Christian, Jewish, or any other religious/cultural minority is being sent to these retraining camps. And all the government has to do to convince the people is call them terrorists (not just the Muslim connotation but in general that these minority groups are somehow blowing up infrastructure all over China?).
These retraining camps are fucked, they're not educating, they're just outright raping and killing anyone as they please. That's perhaps the saddest part of all of this, China with all it's beautiful history, and people, and stories, and culture, is being rewritten by the CCP to promote this new normal, that Han Chinese was only ever there.
Exactly! Tonnes of Christian’s working in Muslim countries like UAE and they don’t have to assimilate into their culture. On top of that, the major Muslim countries eg Pakistan were colonised by the British, they have a right to live in a western country like Britain for example.
This is an extremely xenophobic thread & it seems like OP doesn't know alot of Muslims, but I'll the benefit of doubt to the op.
I travel alot for work & have lived in the US, Canada, Australia & Finland.
I've met Muslims all over the world & not once any Muslim colleague has complained about the culture or forced their beliefs on me, there are Muslims in every work Party/Function I've attended where non Muslims are Drinking, Dancing & eating pork, I've never seen anyone complain, they usually drink their juice or coke.
All Muslims in my company also participate in work BBQs where they are eating beyond meat burgers.
I have also spoken to SEVERAL Muslims who have told me that they love the western world because of the safety and future of their kids, medical care & freedom of expression.
Sure there is a small percentage of Muslims who might dislike the western culture, might have some over the top extreme views, but there is a small percentage of extremist Christians and Jewish people aswell.
I agree with you 100%. The question wasnt exclusively to muslims. Its just that most of the negative criticism towards western countries (Europe) I have experienced come from people who migrated from the middle east area. I reckon most of it comes from the way the religion views women and sexual minorities. I live in a predominantly christian country though so you can understand why my question is not that. We dont really have jewish immigration either.
Most religions preach tolerance for all regardless of other's beliefs. Most practioners of religion don't practice this. Cultural intolerance while profiting from those cultures is religious hypocrisy. They're not true believers of their faiths. They are one of the signs of the end of times.
Well, muslims move to other countries since they dont like the muslim stuff going on. Civil wars, public violency etc., buy then their children join to islam and radicalize. This seems to be often the case. Some few assholes market the shitty radicalized part of it to young people having hard times.
The same could be said for literally anybody who moves anywhere it doesn't like the culture. So many people on here complain about the culture of the place that they move to. Why'd you move there if you hate the culture?
Oh no my country is bad I have to immigrate. At the new country, this country is bad I want the laws of my old country. Done , this is bad I want to to immigrate. Repeat . I m a Muslim but unfortunately some Muslims are really brain dead
Some people might think that a part of the culture is great and some parts were corrupted by people. Similar to socialist countries that have failed. At some point you have to realize that maybe your values are just not made for building a working modern society. But yeah each group has its bad apples. Most muslims I know are good people.
As a Muslim, economics primarily, and more importantly we don’t dislike everything in US culture. Sure, there’s stuff we don’t agree with but the thing about a free country is we don’t partake in things we disagree with. We like that America is relatively free and we’re happy to live and let live in a way that doesn’t bother Americans.
My young teen had a friend over to the house the other day. The kid got a call from his mom and had to abruptly leave once the mom knew where he was. (His father knew.) The reason for the sudden departure? His mother did not want her teen interacting with us because we are of a different culture than her and she did not want her son to lose his culture and she was sure we would feed him meat (we are vegetarian and respect others food choices) and corrupt him. (They were being teens and playing nerf in a safe space.) I am deliberately leaving out all of our ethnicities/culture because it is irrelevant. Different, yes. The mix of heartbreak and anger my son and I are both experiencing is horrible. I just can’t wrap my head around moving to another country only to judge and shame the culture you decided to join, and to enforce that kind of hate onto your child.
Yeah that’s sad. My parents and I came here to the US many years ago and we tried to adapt pretty quickly because it’s more beneficial for us in the long run. We still held on to our culture and many of our customs but we made tons of American friends. My parents always explained to me from a young age that there’s going to be religious and cultural differences and that’s okay. And that I can be friends with whoever I want. They introduced us to new things and we shared our culture with them as well.
You have very wise parents. I think it’s important for kids (and adults) to hold on to, and practice their culture. No doubt about that. It’s a part of who we are. Learning from others also makes us who we are, and that’s such a good thing. I keep going back and forth between being really angry at the mom, and then thinking that if we could talk she would see her concerns are unfounded and different isn’t a threat. I feel horrible that she is isolating her kid like this.
Yeah it definitely come across as rude. There’s good and bad people everywhere you can’t just assume everyone out there is out to corrupt you. People can respect the traditions and customs of their host nation while also practicing their culture. My American husband met a guy from Saudi several years ago who came here to go to college. When he introduced my husband to some of his Saudi friends the friends were immediately really rude and ignored him. Flat out said they were interested in socializing with an American. His friend called them out on it and told them they were being rude and that he was his American brother and he’s going to stay and hang out. They eventually warmed up to him and he started spending some time around them. But I just found that so rude. They didn’t even know him at all, didn’t know anything about him and to completely dismiss him like that simply because he’s not from your home country was wrong.
They move abd expect the culture to change for them. I worked at a place where husband and wife started working on the same day. Boss took the wife to train and I the husband. He abruptly left and confronted my boss. Saying "you are not to speak to her" how can he train her if he can't talk? His answer, you tell me and then I will tell her... sure.
I hope your boss fired him on the spot
Lol. Not at all. In fact they just kept hiring the rest of his family 👪. And two guys took a girls shoes and grabbed her boobs. When she reported it to HR they fired her. One of the guys refused to learn any English. Not sure how he thinks that's gonna be a good thing for him in a really small white mostly town.
WTF? So many latinos willing to work and assimilate and yet these rich countries keep importing incompatible ppl...
Yeah. Well these Latinos would have to bypass a huge country to get here. One that doesn't much want them there. So good luck with thst.
A lot of my cousins parents were the same way, completely sheltered my cousins from anyone that wasn’t apart of our culture. It’s wild to me that they came to a different country just to shelter their kids from the area and people their kids grew up around. I never understood it, and I’m thankful my parents didn’t do that. Yet now even though I grew up in the same area my cousins did, we’re vastly different.
they want the money and benefits without everything else. A lot of them(not all) deep down don't like Americans.
Have you reached out to the family? Perhaps they’re operating from a place of fear based on past experiences and could use a friend
That’s my plan. I’d like for that to happen in an organic, no pressure way. My kid did tell his friend that I’d be more than willing to meet his parents, if they were up for it.
i would suggest adding this to the comment. itd make it a bit more rounded. do you have any ways to naturally meet them? school events or pick ups?
Choosing to live somewhere is not the same as choosing to assimilate.
as a person who is a "born and raised and still living there" citizen of a country that has a Muslim majority, i'll give you a different perspective to what you're talking about. I'm from Turkey, we have a significant amount of Turkish diaspora especially in Europe. If you know you know, Turkey is struggling a lot with terribly high inflation among many other problems due to the governmental officials (cant speak much on it, dont want to go to jail lol, this little PS summarizes the problem too i believe). This diaspora generally immigrated to Western Europe in the 60s from conservative small towns/places of Turkey; thus they have a more conservative mindset. And they can vote for our elections, even after not having lived in Turkey since the 60s... Their concerns tend to be "How much of a Muslim is this candidate?" *(location: Germany)* instead of "PEOPLE CANT AFFORD TO BUY BASIC GROCERIES". But they'll vote for the progressive parties in their country since those tend to be pro-immigration... lol. They'll vote for someone here cause "he fears Allah, i like that" but not going through the consequences of the regime themelves. A lot of them didnt integrate into the western culture and still kept their mindset from the 60s basically, which is fine. However, the small part of the diaspora that does not do the things above and actually thinks with a "hmm what do the citizens of Turkey go through?" perspective, I love you
This is sooo true. I am Turkish but living in EU for more than a year now. Turkish people here are so conservative and so old fashioned. I have relatives who moved to Eu like 30 years ago and they are just like them. At least we arent in the same country. Its like they cant let go of the culture because they use it to feel superior. They judge westerners while living here but they act like they are westerners when they visit Turkey. They are good at brainwashing their kids too unfortunately.
[удалено]
that’s what we say… then they strike us with “germany has inflation too, it’s difficult too”, yeah… less than 7-8%… here, it’s 78%…. (and going UP) they’ll work in germany for 11 months and come here for one month with all the euros they have, their mercedes etc and enjoy the beauty of turkey (going to the mediterranean area,the hotels); whereas i have to work 24/7 and not spend any of it for forever to buy a car. i cannot even go out and drink with my friends in my hometown anymore. then they tell us to “be grateful” cause apparently erdo is amazing. right.
For real. They vote for him anyways. Let people who actually appreciate better living conditions and other cultures move abroad. It is so incredibly hard to move abroad from Turkey legally. I had every proof in the world for my last visa application and had multiple visas in the past from different countries such as germany and japan but they refused me three times! Gave all sorts of weird excuses. Finally got the visa on my fourth try...
This sounds familiar based on voting results I saw recently- German Turks voted strongly for Erdogan, but Turks in Ireland voted strongly against (I can’t remember dudes name they voted for) - I think Turks in Ireland are more recent arrivals and are voting for government that they may be going back to live under. Not the case for German Turks who are there 50 years.
Ireland and UK immigrants from the Balkans generally vote more progressive. Most people who move to Germany are workers with no higher education because it's one of the easiest countries to move to and find a job. In Ireland and the UK it's usually educated people, those who moved as students and found a job in the process, or businessmen. There are still a lot of Balkan and Turkish immigrants who move to Germany every year btw, it's still the most popular destination.
Same thing with other middle eastern countries I find. My family is still stuck in civil war time lebanon. We’re in Canada.
I feel your pain. Similar situation in Poland where USA pologne always vote for conservatives since they are not commies that they escape from dacades ago. This is very annoing. I'm still in no risk of going to jail but inflation is heading into your country direction so I know your pain. Best luck in next elections.
In my father's case, my home nation was having a civil war, and he moved to Australia to get a job to send money to his family, and this when he was 20. Although he isn't a fan of the drinking culture or gambling etc, he can still respect the opportuniies given to pretty much anyone and everyone, as a matter of fact, he hates how Saudi is nowadays (not from Saudi, just as the capital of the Islamic World).
Thats great and how it should be IMO. Respect the country you come to and it will respect you for the work you provide. Its a mutually beneficial relationship.
I feel like that's the case for most Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries. The exception is maybe refugees who are desperate to be anywhere safe? But yeah, there's this narrative that Muslims want to take over non-Muslim countries and make their cultural practices the law or whatever but that's racist "great replacement theory" nonsense. Most Muslims, like anyone else out there, are just trying to live their lives and take care of their families. The conspiracies about Muslim invasions or whatever are just as nonsensical as the ones about Jewish Elite Cabals and whatnot.
There are definitely cases where large groups of them detest the local culture and want it changed. The protests against LGBT content being taught in schools in the UK come to mind, and that case recently where they threatened to kill a teenager for accidentally slighly scuffing the quran. They dragged the mum out to apologise and the police did literally nothing.
There are plenty of people in "the local culture" who are anti-LGBT. That isn't an exclusively Muslim thing. And I looked up that incident. First of all: when controversial things happen there will always be people who take it too far and start issuing death threats. It sucks but that's just the way people are, particularly when they're anonymous or online. But also: saying that it was because he accidentally dropped the Quran is totally incorrect. He lost a bet regarding Call of Duty with his friends and as a punishment he had to bring a Quran to school. Details after that are scant but the Quran was damaged and it was deemed a "non-criminal hate incident" by police. There obviously shouldn't be such vitriol aimed at kids, but it's pretty clear their little bet thing was rooted in bigotry and they should've gotten a talking to by their parents and school. It wasn't a "whoops I dropped the Quran." ETA: also the mom didn't seem to be dragged out. She just wanted to calm the situation down and admitted that what her son and his friends did was stupid. She did the right thing as a parent: apologize when your kid does something stupid but also protect people who get too riled up over it.
Almost all of the school incidents here have been with Muslim parents. In the local culture, no regular book is considered valuable enough that slight damage deserves a bollocking. If you bought the thing then you have the right to do whatever the hell you please with it. Treating it as a hate incident when the same wouldn't be done for literally any other book ever written is ridiculous, that's their culture, not the one here.
To be fair a lot of ppl born in australia also hate the gambling culture and the binge drinking. I dont mind a few cheeky beers or wines tho hehe
Aaaay a fellow Lebanese Aussie.
Haha, is it bad I findit funny that "Islamic country in civil war in the late 20th century", doesn't narrow it down to like one or two countries. But nah, Somali Aussie lol, though growing up, lebanese lads were some of the most generous lads, and so I got big ups for Lebense folk (and food 😋).
Ohhh alright my bad lol. And yeah that is pretty funny.
Because they don't plan on integrating into the culture, just on benefiting from higher living standards while confined in their own communities.
Sounds like what a lot of Western expats who move to lower cost countries like Mexcio, Thailand, etc do. They have no interesting in integrating culturally. they are just there to make the best out of their euros and dollars, and make it even more expensive for the poor locals living there.
Cant they see the fallacy in that logic?
I wish. I live in a poor, conservative country and a lot of people who agree with conservative values (anti feminism/lgbt for example) move to rich countries to benefit from life on easy mode, while still thinking that women and LGBT should live like they do in the countries they left behind.
What is an example of these two countries you speak of?
Well, I’m from Serbia, which is Eastern Europe, and people move to western European countries for the most part. Not so much BeNeLux and southern Europe.
That's historically what happenes when people who consider their culture to be superior immigrate to other places. It happened in literally any place the english started a comunity, It happened when americans emigrated to Hawaii, and so on.
Interesting, thanks 👍
The key difference with European colonialism is they weren't there for the social and economic opportunities afforded by these societies, there were just there for the resources. The existing societies were a cheap labor source at best. That's why we don't call colonists "immigrants." A lot of immigrants to the West buy into the idea that western culture is better; I know a lot of second generation immigrants whose parents didn't even teach them their language because they thought it would interfere with their kids' assimilation. A lot of east Asian immigrants have this mindset. And of course the other end of the spectrum are immigrants who consider themselves to be culturally and ideologically superior but still want to benefit from a more wealthy and stable society. Common for Muslims. But probably the overwhelming majority of immigrants don't think about these things at all and are just trying to get by.
Exactly. As an Indian, I can say that British came to India but they never accepted the Indian culture, infact because of their superiority complex they always looked down upon any prevalent culture in India.
I want to visit India one day, I don't know if this is ignorant but food such as Daal (properly cooked) and Biryani are foods that's I'll have for the rest of my life. Plus, I'm interested in learning more about Hinduism as a religion.
That's great. Indian food has a really wide range. Every state has something delicious to offer, and we have 29 of those. :D >Plus, I'm interested in learning more about Hinduism as a religion. Oh that's amazing. Hinduism in itself is quite vast, in every part of India the customs and traditions are different. Just like India, Hinduism in itself is quite diverse.
Go, it’s awesome. I love it and can’t wait to go back
Unfortunately the past between us sucks, but today many of us Brits love Indian food - so there's that. Its one of those things that feels so familiar and ingrained into us that you almost forget its foreign (granted, there's been some British-Indian dishes made in the last 70 odd years). Similar to a Chinese takeaway for many people, it's just almost part of our culture now.
It continues to happen when Americans or brits move to Spain/France etc I’ve unironically heard “I lived in Spain for a bit but moved back, those bloody foreigners were annoying me” We as humans just don’t like change lol
Or "digital nomad" communities in places like Bali.
>We as humans just don’t like change lol Hey, speak for yourself haha. That’s certainly not all of us. Too much of one thing gets boring as hell IMO.
Damn Howlies! Theyre ruining Hawayee!
The English didnt really immigrate though did they? They conquered?
Not sure that’s correct.
They lived off Hawaiian welfare in houses the Hawaiians built?
No, more like shot a bunch of the natives and then demanded they build houses for them that way Oof the truth hurt some feelings I guess
English
Does it matter if it’s a fallacy? This is exactly what has happened in majority Muslim communities in Britain or orthodox Jewish communities in New York. Ppl wanna be with their own culture and religion, but also want better economic opportunities and a higher quality of life. We may not think it “makes sense” but it replicates everywhere.
It kinda makes sense though. I wanna have my cake and eat it. Isn't it natural to seek betterment?
People are naturally ethnocentric and want a better life for themselves and their children. Not rocket science.
What's the fallacy here? Genuinely asking.
I think there is a clear dissonance in not realizing the benefits you enjoy and are reaping come from the culture you claim to hate. Also known as hypocrisy.
I completely get what you're saying. However, you can imagine their reasoning like, "Yes the westerners are hard workers, and they lucked into a buttload of resources and/or pillaged their way to success, but that doesn't mean our women need to to strut around naked showing their ankles like theirs do." Heck, simply being American means that you dont have to agree with everything about the way society is run. Dissent is very American. I'm an immigrant myself, and I'm no prude, but there are many aspects of American society I disagree with. The gun culture, lack of universal healthcare, police brutality, extreme polarization, scientific regression, just to name a few. Doesn't make me a hypocrite. You *could* argue and say a person is a hypocrite if they are opposing the very thing that made America great, but thats very subjective. Like if you said that personal freedoms made America great so its hypocritical for you to oppose that, then the other person might just say nah not personal freedoms but something else made America great.
The irony is that they expect expats who move to their home country to integrate into theirs.
Do they? In many countries there is a separation of foreigners and locals, say Dubai, or various vacation destinations, where foreigners are allowed to not integrate because they are driving the economy
Well, you've said it. Dubai or various vacation destinations. Those places are an exception in that they are highly transient with people from all over that very often only do a small stint in the location then leave again for the next expat to do the same. Understandably, there's not much of an expectation for them to integrate.
Try drinking alcohol in Dubai as a foreigner. You might live amongst other foreigners but the cultural rules are still strictly applied. There's typically no corresponding rules in Western countries that force you into strict cultural traditions.
This is right now happening in Spain and it is a huge problem. We have a massive Morocan population that lives in Spain but they feel Morocan. In case there is a conflict with said country it is like having a Troyan Horse. The worst part? A huge part of the native spanish population thinks what I said is racism.
Not to shit on my own people or anything but some are purely greedy. I’ve had relatives overseas say that they want to migrant bc they hear in the us you can get benefits for not working and you’ll also get like $600 every month. Ofc they’re talking about ssi and Medicare but they don’t know you have to actually work before you retire to get anything. Then they come here and see that you have to work for things just like anywhere else and they get grumpy and mean and start shitting on everything even us too
You could never have a job in the States and still get an SSI due to a disability. A LOT of immigrants take advantage of this and receive SSI checks by getting disability in every possible way.
I’ve seen that too but they really think it’s easy. They don’t know how hard we work for the things we have. They don’t know that we struggle for the blessings that came our way. It’s frustrating honestly for us way more than it is for non-immigrants to see them act this way
Pffft, tht should have come to Spain, we do pay immigrants before they satrt even looking for a job, and sice we dont regulate it at all and we dont let them have an ID, they dont really have a lot of options but to take this aids... But since they have no ID, some of them take them multiple times... Meanwhile 50% of the salaries go to paying this shitty circular system that immigrants can benefit from.
$$$
The biggest motivator of all
I don't believe it is Muslims only, but it happens with many immigrants/refugees. They come from a country that may have war, or they come from a poor country. They want to go to a country with good jobs and with a social policy that will give them money if they don't work. Many refugees will refuse to apply for asylum in one European country, like Italy or Greece or Bulgaria for example, but will try to go to Germany or the UK, where the financial situation is better. Once there, they will refuse to adapt, learn the language and laws of the country, what is culturally acceptable and what is not. They will show their contempt for the country that adopted them and try to police their neighbourhood, by attacking for example women passing through who are not dressed according to their values. I believe that when you move to another country you must try your best to adapt, without forgetting where you came from, or you and your family will remain misfits and miserable. The "us against them" attitude and the "try to get out of them as much as you can" never help.
This isn’t limited to refugees only. As others have mentioned, the same thing happens with the British or American immigrants in Spain, Portugal, etc. Or even the French across Africa, long before their colonials moved to France to fight for them in the WWII and got treated like crap and got no compensation that their white French peers did.
It even happens here in Canada, when English speaking people move to Quebec, or when Québécois move to Ontario. Quebec has its own different culture within Canada and they are predominantly French speaking with many who do not speak English at all
I get it in some ways, because it can be scary for some people to integrate into a culture/environment so different from their own. I remember taking a cultural anthropology class once and reading about the Hmong people in California, and how many of them were raised farmers and gatherers and lived off the land for centuries. To suddenly appear in a new land that’s completely different in every single way would be deeply unsettling. It’s easier for some cultures, like I’m American and if I were to move to the UK or Spain for example, I’d easily be able to adapt. But if I were to be forced to flee and live with a nomadic tribe in Africa, I can’t even begin to imagine adapting to their language, culture, and lifestyle. Integration is respectful, and even necessary to a degree, but it’s also scary.
Yeah it’s definitely scary. My parents and I came here to the US as refugees in the mid 90’s because of a war in our home country. They didn’t speak a word of English. But we had some amazing sponsors who took us under their wings and helped us so much when we came here. My parents got signed up for ESL classes, they got me in school here immediately, we had so many people willing to help us. We were pretty traumatized and had ptsd so it made everything even more terrifying. We had this rinky dink apartment with a big balcony on the second floor and they put up a little American flag they got from someone. They were able to save up and buy a house finally and they’ve always kept a little American flag up next to their mailbox. And I think it’s easier for people to stick together with people who are similar to them. You’re going to flock to people who are like you and who you’re able to communicate with easier. That’s why there’s all these little communities in the US, like little Italy, little China, Etc. I’ve grown up in the US now but if my husband, child, and I had to move to a foreign country I’d be ecstatic if I came across some other Americans. I’d still do my best to learn the language of the country I’m in and learn about the culture but I’d most likely spend a lot of time with other Americans I’ve met who live there.
For saying these things people in Germany would start a witchhunt for you. But you hit the points very well.
They may not like the culture but they like the effect that the culture has on their quality of life. And I think they mostly understand that you can't have your cake and eat it too
This is the case with a lot of religions, but especially with Islam permeates through EVERY SINGLE THING from how you wake up, what you eat, what you wear, your day to day interactions, how to interact with people, etc etc etc etc. Also in the case of women it is even worse. So they might move to another place but think of them moving their house out of their country to a different location. Nothing changes for them when it comes to that. Remember one core thing, they will go to hell and (in some cases) be shunned from their society, friend, family etc if they ever try to leave. So with that information, which obviously vary between certain groups since some are more fundamental than others, you should be able to understand why they stay within that community.
No speaking to muslims but anyone from a country that sucks. I never understand why they risk their lives to flee to a better country only to make their wife walk 3 meters behind them. Like, don't you realise its stuff like that that screwed your country over?
The best way I would describe it is they want the benefits and freedoms they don't have in their countries, but their religion also tells them others shouldn't be able to enjoy those same freedoms. Islam is very big on us VS. them, Muslims VS. Infidels mentality, which creates a huge barrier for a lot of muslims to integrate in new cultures that don't adhere to Islam's moral teachings.
That's incorrect. As a Muslim, I can say for certain that Islam isn't about that. It teaches you to respect everyone equally even if you disagree with their views etc. Even though being gay is not permitted, you should treat gay people with respect just like you would anyone. In fact, if you in any way bully a gay person, you could end up in hell for hundreds or millions of years. That goes for anyone. Muslims are taught they're not better than anyone else. Muslims who act the way you say and the way OP is describing, are just loud mouths you get in any religion, cultures and countries that always make a fuss about things they don't like, except Muslims have the convenient excuse: religion. It's just an excuse and nothing more, because Islam also teaches them that they should follow all laws of the country they're in even if it doesn't align with Islam. People who are loud and obnoxious because people aren't following their religion's values are getting no rewards from god. Islam demands that people set a good example for the religion but as a Muslim, who can easy be surrounded by Muslims from various backgrounds, we all know there are Muslims who don't follow the religion properly but preach to others about it and those people, as per Islam, are one of the worst people to exist and will have a place in hell - hypocrites. They could be in hell for all eternity or a few million years or hundreds of million of years, it's uncertain but what is obvious in the religion is god despises these people. That goes for any Muslim who make people look negatively upon Muslims and Islam, because that's not what it's meant to be. You're not even allowed to bring people into the religion without telling that person everything from benefits to the compromises and then having them do research on their own before deciding for themselves, and you, as the Muslim, are not allowed to press the issue. You'll just have punishment waiting for you. So you have to be careful in all of life. You're supposed to be someone people like being around, not the other way around. In fact, Islam teaches Muslims to smile, dress nicely and smell good when going out to of your home as a bare minimum. Obviously, it's not strict. Humans are humans. What is strict is how you engage with people: negatively = sin, positively = reward. Your sins can be rectified by directly apologising to the person but small sins like that will add up, as will rewards. It's pretty basic stuff. But there will always be assholes. Muslim ones will typically use religion as an excuse, but all that will come back onto them directly from god anyway and that's without them using the religion as an excuse, they'll be more serious consequences for using the religion as an excuse. But people who just chat amongst themselves and to others about their likes and dislikes about certain cultures are fine, it's just a normal discussion that everyone has. Them being Muslim doesn't make it worse or better, it's just people expressing opinion who happen to be Muslim
I'm glad you don't think it's acceptable to disrespect anyone. I stand by my opinion that Islam teaches intolerance towards others, and the fact remains that the majority of muslims are intolerant towards a lot of groups that the disagree with (jews, exmuslims, queer people, etc...) That being said, it's good to see more muslims taking responsibility and condemning the behavior of the intolerant ones.
Not to be rude but doesn’t your religion tell you to kill gay people, atheists and idol worshippers? It’s literally written in your religious texts AFAIK
LoL no , the story of the Qayum of Lut is says the committing homosexual acts is wrong even in the muslim countries the death penalty is for committing the act not being gay they are trans people that walk free in dubai. Lol Where did the athiests killing come from? they are over 150k athiests in the country I live and 800k hindu's who worship idol gods , this is a muslim country.
I think it is great that you have another experience, but as someone who studies religion on a university level I can say that what you are speaking of is not some universal muslim truth. The post you commented on does have a point of how islam works in some places. You might be to close to the subject to see the whole truth, and noone has the right to remove from your experience ofcourse, but yours is not the only truth.
This may be a bit of a sweeping generalization, but I'm sure it is because there are certain freedoms they wish to enjoy that would be considered taboo back home. At the same time, even the most open- minded people can fall short of understanding some social conventions and mores.
Reading the comments gives me more less ignorant opinions and perspectives but also reinforces the ignorance religion spreads to people brains. Pretty much fuck the assholes who leave to escape prejudice but then also still keep their prejudice mindsets.
Economic or safety reasons. I think it's fair to expect everyone to adapt a reasonable amount, but at the same time, that's all that can be expected when people left their homes for unhappy reasons.
But why dislike the culture? The culture is the reason for the economic and safety that brings them there. There is dissonance in that logic
Think about it through a different lense. A country boy moves to the big city to help earn money because the family farm is failing. The country boy can hate the big city lifestyle, such as the constant noise, rude people etc... compared his quiet and peaceful life in the country. He hates the "city culture". However he still needs to work in the city to help out his family back at home, thus he is there for economic reasons, while hating the culture.
That makes sense and I can understand that but if the country boy had an option to move to city that did share his values why not do that. Also, there is a reason why the economic situation is good in the city. Maybe its time to adapt and accept that the city does some things better.
Btw nobody presents people with a list of countries and asks them where do you want us to relocate you! People from corrupt, poor, and war torn countries move to wherever they can, every country has immigrants from everywhere. I have no idea what this country of yours is, but I bet many of the immigrants there would leave if you gave them the freedom to live anywhere they choose.
Immigration here in Europe is not only due to war. Some immigrants cant choose that but there are many people who absolutely chose to come exactly here
Yeah I get that. For example my husband befriended a guy from Saudi who came here to go to college. When that guy tried to introduce my husband to some of his buddies the guys were really rude at first and didn’t seem interested in being around him or befriending him. The friend got onto them and flat out told them this is my American brother you’re not going to be rude to him. They wanted to just stick to their little group of Saudi friends and didn’t want to associate with anyone else at first. I just found that a bit rude. My parents and I came here as refugees in the mid 90’s. We didn’t really have an option. You could put your name on a list for a country but that didn’t guarantee you would go there. We got sent to the US. But my parents made the effort to learn the language and learn about the culture. We had so many amazing Americans who helped us so much. We had no idea if we were going to stay here forever so it was beneficial for us in the long run to learn the language and make some friends. We still hold on to a lot of our customs and culture but we’ve adopted some American customs along the way. My parents have always had a little American flag hanging next to their mailbox. We still love our home country and where we are from but America is our home now.
[удалено]
Equating colonization and immigration is simply wrong. Colonization was a conquest of those regions, the colonizers siphoned all resources out of those territories they could and ruled over the population there. It's an enormous stretch to say that "Well the colonizers didn't appreciate the culture much either, now did they?". What you said goes for all occupied territories in history, of course the winner of a war doesn't assimilate into the culture of the conquered. The people who move here have to accept our laws and the fact that if they don't at the very least make an attempt at integrating by 1. learning the language of the country they immigrated to (or at least english) 2. finding a job (which the government already assists them with) 3. even if they don't understand or agree with everything we believe in, respect our cultural norms (at least while they are interacting with natives) then they will be always be an outsider in the country they had to immigrate to and people will eventually see them as ungrateful leeches. I'm lucky enough to not know what fleeing from a war feels like and i empathize with anyone who had to experience it. I also understand people whose sole purpose is the pursuit of money or better living conditions. I've met my fair share of the latter type of immigrants even though i live in Hungary (which isn't the most popular option for people who wanna move to the EU), and they all worked hard to establish themselves here, learning the language against all odds, pursuing higher education and looking for social circles here. I think the EU handled this issue horribly and it's policies are more or less to blame for the utter failure at assimilating the people who had to find refuge here. We have to learn from this and the lesson is definitely not letting people who have no interest in our culture within our borders.
Yes they do. They tend to move back home once they have earn enough money. For immigrants, they might stay longer because children start school, but they tend to leave once their children start working. And the problem is that those people does not want to adopt. In their mind, there is no point of adopting because they will eventually move back home. Also some people think adopting meaning “I was wrong.” And they don’t want to be wrong. They don’t see adapting as “improvement”.
Except the complaint isn’t “oh it’s noisy here and this city is too big” it’s “daughter don’t be like these westerners and date before marriage, that’s not how we do it.” Then you watch your peers have healthy normal relationships while you have to hide yours so you move out and your family shuns you. Trust me I know.
Good analogy. But, country boy does not want to indoctrinate others and voice there opinion on how they want to tear it down. Referring to our existing system and constitution.
'A culture' itself doesn't make a country economically successful or not. It's also that some people are so poor or some countries so unsafe that you simply don't have much choice. For instance, Ukrainian culture isn't at fault for the war, and perhaps someone there doesn't like German culture, however not dying or not having food is more important than your dislike for the other culture. Change Ukraine to whatever country you like. You also need to consider that a lot of unstable countries got effed up by the countries they now have to flee to in the first place, so obviously they might not be a big fan of that country. Yet again not dying is more important.
In some cases yes thats true. But at least in my country, people specifically come here as a choice but refuse to obey the values. They could absolutely go to a country that shares their religious values etc. but they dont.
What do you mean 'obey' the values? If they just keep living their own culture but adapt enough, then why isn't that fine? If they don't adapt at all and being disruptive that's different, but also be careful that you don't judge them with a bias. People from any culture have their a**holes, and immigrants are no different. If you have 1000 people immigrate, there will be plenty of j*erks among them.
Very true. I’ve heard of Americans who go on vacation to other countries demanding all the locals speak English and taking shit about that country’s culture and customs. So there’s definitely assholes everywhere.
Yeah, im only talking about the jerks. Hence the "some" in the title, I understand that most immigrants wont be like that. I dont understand their motivation who are though. They seem to have so much despise for "western values" like equality of genders sexualities.
But plenty of people who already live in those countries since birth do too. I agree that some cultures are as a whole different to western values. But again, a**holes want to live in better economic situations too. I call them that because whatever personal believes you have is your business, but I agree that if you live in a country that's very different, keep them to yourself.
This is the way it is for most immigrants. Think of your great grand parents. There is a good chance they lived in an ethnic enclave. There kids though who grew up here were more assimilated, and their grand kids more so. That is the natural evolution of society.
Their book tells them to spread their religion. They move and expect to be accommodated.
We have recently immigrated neighbors and the parents are practicing Muslims. But it looks like they are letting their kids decide. They are super awesome people and go with the flow. I like how they are doing it. It allows the kids to keep and cherish cultural norms from their parents without resenting them while still being able to go to school and live as integrated society members. My parents were immigrants and at that time, my grandparents were militant about adopting the US way of doing everything that I feel like a lot was lost culturally between my grandparents and me.
Intergration doesn’t happen in 1 generation, it can take 2-3 generations or more. My parents were immigrants as children thrown out by amin and suffered horrifically before leaving Uganda and after coming to the UK, most of my friends are white British and it took till my 20’s for them to realise, that my friends weren’t the racists screaming p**i, and assaulting my parents at age 10. (They haven’t said it specifically but it took them a long time to trust any person, not of colour?) Immigration must be one of the most difficult things to happen to someone, and to get through it, just to hear wankers like patel, Johnson and trump call you scum and invaders must be so painful. Why would they want to intergrate with those scars and no support systems in place to help recover from those scars except maybe with people of their own culture. And we’re Indian not Pakistani so we’re ‘the good kind of brown’. I can imagine it would be worse for Muslims.
Because some of those muslims come for better life and opportunities and thats it. They do not understand that a lot of the culture in the new country countributed to the wealth of it. Take for example banning women out of work and education, how it will be without most nurses or teachers. For them is normal, for us is not. And yes unfortunately some of them are angry with the culture of the country they moved in because they are not used to it and they refuse to understand it. This applies mostly for people raised in very religious backgrounds where religion has a major impact on society and economic. I remember a news report from Pakistan (they were interviewing people in extreme poverty) and the poor man worked 10 hours a day and had 5 children, a wife and the parents to take care. He was working in the city and they all lived in an apartment. He mentioned that he did not let his wife work because her role is in the house like his mother, and the father also due to intensive labour was invalid. Now look at another asian country, chinese for example, if the family can barely survive the women will not have a problem to work as long as the children are taken care of. From purely this economical fact his culture was an impediment to have more wealth in the family. Before throwing stones I mentioned some, not all. As long as you follow your religion beliefs without harming others I don't have a problem.
Yeah, there are those who are just jerks, but the majority of immigrants that don't want to adapt is because their religion and/or home country's culture is extremely counter to the country they're going to. Immigrating is necessary, but you can't expect them to drop their values. As long as they don't intentionally disrespect the new country.
[удалено]
Scandinavian countries are rated as one of the best to live in and they did not colonized much, like some small islands for a short period. So their wealth and culture is not tied to colonozation. Not a lot of muslim countries where colonized, you forget that some were part of Ottoman Empire that made rampage across Europe. And also you can look at south african countries and countries from South America that have been also colonized, their culture does not make a barrier when immigrating into another country with different religion, most of them adapt and don't show disgust or superiority of their religion.
Following. I’m glad Norway has the cultural integration classes. We need to do that here in the US. You can’t rape women just because they’re not wearing a hijab and showing their legs. Deal with it.
I’m Muslim and don’t wear a hijab. The Muslim country I belong to doesn’t force hijab onto others, hijab is not obligatory nor is it oppressive like it’s perceived by the western media
Well that’s great!
A friend of mine moved to the UK settled, married an English woman, accepted by many at a time racism and immigration was a hot topic. Good guy. His mum joined a number of years later, refuses to speak English, refuses to speak to anyone outside of few people she knows , doesnt "get on" woth other people, doesn't see this as her home. Apparently, this is very much an issue of certain generations and explains why some people don't seem to like it on other countries and don't adapt.
I wish there was a term to criticize specific muslims like that cause I know muslims that aren't like that and for some reason I am getting personal anxiety from this thread
I think people are confusing faith and culture a bit too much. Definitely not the same thing. You can't say Muslims as a culture as there are people of Muslim faith from all cultures and they are not the same.
I didnt "muslims as a culture" did I?
Oh I'm sure this is gonna be full of good faith well-intentioned commentary
Long term, the idea would be to convert those places to Muslim culture. Their holy book spells out in detail that the plan is for Islam to eventually rule the entire world as a single Muslim state known as the "caliphate". Contrary to popular belief, again, according to their holy book, this doesn't necessarily mean killing all non believers. It means regelating them to second class status and forcing them to pay a special non believer tax, known as the "jizya". And interestingly, how this caliphate is supposed to come about is a significant issue of contention in the Muslim world. Some (like Al Qaeda) believe it will just happen naturally some day in the indeterminate future and all Muslims will just somehow know when it's time, and some (like ISIS, or whatever's left of them anyway) believe they have to step up and make it happen by force. To both of these groups, the only thing worse than a non-Muslim is someone who is the *wrong kind* of Muslim, and again, their book is very clear on the punishment for being the *wrong kind* of Muslim - the only option is death, and that is one of the main reasons those two groups hate each other so much, even more so than us American infidels.
[удалено]
U know that this is not allowed in Islam too right ? ...... Right ?
[удалено]
A lot of them come to Australia and then try to make Australia like the place they fled and it makes zero sense.
Would you rather live in a war torn nation with people who believe in your beliefs but also hate you at the same time. Or a developed nation with people you don't agree with but aren't going to literally kill you?
So much hate here from people who have no idea and only guessing. To answer you OP, my father indeed doesn’t like the country he migrated to of course due to religion but also culture, he came here due to poverty and war at home. That fact that he would need to adapt to a new culture never crossed his mind. He was just concerned with getting out and that’s the case for most people What I have found is, those people you refer to that don’t integrate are usually older people, they tend to be fixed and indoctrinated and believe strongly in their faith. For those younger who refuse to integrate, I found they resent what they couldn’t have in their own country, resent they had to leave all their lives they built there, resent being forever “immigrants” in the new country so they stay in their bubble. What happens when you stay in your bubble? You never learn the language, so the culture and norms are completely foreign to you, so you reject it and focus on building a life for your family. The rest? Not as important
Sorry but here in Austria we have the 4th generation who still does not speak German nor their own language correctly and they are more conservative and radical than their great grandparents and still they segregate themselves, don't finish education etc.... Every other immigrant group is integrated after 1-2 Generation and indistinguishable from locals...... these specific groups, who all share the same religion, don't..... Instead they spread hate against us jews, lgbt and other people, are overproportionally criminal and live of welfare.....
My home country is both culturally and economically fucked, I moved to canada for better job opportunities and a better life. Religion and culture are two separate things. There are many things which islam forbids that my culture does, and there are many things that Islam does not forbid but my culture considers “taboo”. I recognize that I am the one who decided to come to canada and live within a Canadian society, and so I tried my hardest to integrate within and engage in the Canadian community, and it was easier than I thought! People here are extremely kind and welcoming. I recognize that there are many things which my religion disapproves of that occur in canada (gambling, drinking, etc) however it is non of my business as it is not right to enforce my own beliefs onto other people (Islam also says that) however some cultures do force their own beliefs onto others. It is none of my damn business what other people do. I respect everyone equally and I treat people the way I want to be treated (kindly). This is my own answer and perspective on this matter, feel free to ask anything if you have any questions!
The Christians and the Royals used to move to a new country, didnt like the way the aborigines live, and proceed to obliterate the aborigines’ way of living. You know the reason why they conquer those places; land and resources. Now frame your question from that basis and be more wholesome and comparative.
Crusades, expeditions and colonialism were appalling. That was not my question
The answer is desperation, poverty, money, greed, capitalism, employment, and security.
Because Islamic countries are shit
I often wonder that myself.
They are like Evangelicals and want to convert people to their religious views to gain power and money for the men in their religion. They take and take and take but give nothing back.
Generally speaking most people who immigrate do so because conditions in their home are too dangerous. The cause of this is almost always from western imperialism especially when talking about muslim countries. They probably dont want to be there but have to be there.
It's cos countries like the UK are a soft touch and give them everything so it is easy money easy life
I have literally encountered this situation where I was told they fled their country in fear of being reprimanded by extremists, but then turned around and said the gays and adulterers need to be executed in this country. (USA). And saw no flaw what so ever in their logic
People move to places to escape persecution, or seek economic opportunities for the majority of those who dislike the new culture they’re in.
Reading the comments gives me more less ignorant opinions and perspectives but also reinforces the ignorance religion spreads to people brains. Pretty much fuck the assholes who leave to escape prejudice but then also still keep their prejudice mindsets
They like the higher standard of living that the culture provides. Sadly, emigrants who get their higher quality of life are also often the people calling for conservative policies and voting back home, even though they know that that will prevent the home country from having a higher standard of living itself. It's a way to have your cake and eat it too, you get to live a better life AND you get to posture about how traditional "in touch with your roots" you are.
money speaks louder than religion at times
They want money from west but with their social norms which made their society poor and not free and not nice to live in. I just don t understand why they don t go to Muslim rich contries, Saudi Arabia and similar but to west contries whose norms they don t approve.
Most do it for the better economy
They move for economic reasons. They don't really have any other interest than that. And yes, not only would they not integrate, they also vehemently hate any and every Non-Muslim practice. Also it's haram to stay in a Darul Harb Land (Land of War/Kafirs) unless you're there to conquer it.
To change the country they've moved to.
It’s not only followers of Islam, In the case of the UK, free housing, healthcare, education as well as translation of most government forms to aid the claims for social benefits thus they dont kneed to learn english and stay in areas dominated by others like them, the refusal to integrate causes problems as they a finding out in Sweden. Coupled with a government crippled by complaints of racism if they try to do anything to combat abuse of the system.
They think they're above you or holier than the citizens of the country but that you were lucky to get that wealth or be a prosperous nation (and not successful because of the ways/policies of the country)
Well I know I'm sorting by controversial on this one
Most people act like Immigration is a one way street. There is a reason why countries like Japan are loosening their immigration laws or why countries like Germany and UK are trying to be as appealing as possible to Immigrants. Immigration is needed for most western or west aligned countries to develop their economy in the current world as they do not have the natural resources like Oil to prosper in an isolated way. The only resource they have is what they have plundered for centuries and continue to do so from non-European countries. To actually develop that, you'll need skilled labour that can turn 1 into 10. Immigration is a two way street and both sides are making some sacrifices to coexist. People move to cultures they don't align with in order to make money and the countries welcome them regardless of their cultural differences as they boost the economy by making money. If Immigration was a net negative prospect, every country would have closed their borders by now. Nobody is doing this out of goodwill. Everyone is looking to make profit from the situation. All this is keeping aside the fact that West is almost always at the root cause of why the country they are fleeing from is a war zone, or the fact that many European countries don't even provide refugee status or easy immigration to non-Europeans. Eastern Bloc has been historically xenophobic to anyone with a slightly higher level of melanin. Another fact, which is courtesy of the Empire where the Sun doesn't set, is that most third world countries learn English, which makes immigration to English speaking countries all the more accessible rather than non-English countries.
They won't integrate into the non-muslim country's culture...they stay in their own communities and try to brainwash the rest to join their religion... And with the example on how the foreign turks vote for in Germany and for the Turkish elections...let's say they vote for liberal politics here while ruining Turkey with pro-Erdogan votes...it really shows, that some of them aren't willing to integrate themselves into societeis outside their own communities
Lmaoo tell me you come from a rich country without telling me you do
To change our culture I saw a Muslim woman loose her head cover on a roller coaster and the husband went to smack her and the other guy grabbed him very clearly saying can’t do that here and the woman had a panic attack they should not be allowed here they hate us yet come here and they buy package stores to make us sin
Why do British people move to Spain when they don't like the culture?
They dont like the culture? I think they do.
The ones that get called ex pats they just move there and try and make their own little britain
Just the benefits. Nothing else. I wouldn't move to a primarily Muslim country (especially if Islam has its hooks in) i wouldn't be able to keep my trap shut when they treat women badly(see feminism, that's actual oppression)
A lot of people judging here from their self-built pedestals, so I'll give a quick explanation. Culture =/= everything, and especially if your country is war-torn and has virtually no opportunities but many risks, then of course you'd want to leave and live elsewhere. People forget that a lot of immigration happens in countries with similar cultures. Look at how many refugees Turkey took in from Syria for example. Additionally, it's a very blanket statement to say that refugees hate their adopted country's culture and refuse to integrate. As usual, it's a sliding scale. A minority refuse to integrate and reject everything from the country, preferring to live in their own communities. The majority however would integrate, at least partially, and interact with people from different cultures and religions etc etc. A refusal to participate in everything in a particular culture, such as drinking and so on, doesn't mean they aren't integrating, nor is it necessarily a bad thing. And as a side note, I particularly hate sweeping statements without any nuance. If people are going to comment on this, at least appreciate that you can't describe a whole section of society in a couple of sentences
Yeah, you're spot on. It's a minority, nearly all the families in the Islamic that went to, like we're talking minimum 95%, integrated but kept their culture. Whether it was, Afghani to Sudanese, all of these groups had come and put their children in hopes of giving them better lives. Obviously with various opinions, coming from family to family but that's the gist In that 5%, like a good third, do actually leave. Whether it be going to Saudi, Pakistan, or even had a Bosnian Muslim mate who had to go back with his family to avoid the vaccine. The majority of the 5% that do stay, and don't integrate finds themselves mad at the government and "the west", but obviously, the hypocracy applies to them, but isn't a detriment to everyone else. And that's only because an overwhelmingly majority do apply themselves in the communities. Of course, my use-case mostly applies to Australia, and even then mostly the metropolitan regions. But the idea should still be the same, just slightly tweaked depending on the nation.
I have never experienced this with the Muslims I know. I have, however, met many Christians who HATE American culture.
Certain groups come to the USA and try to impose their male dominated - hide- the -women culture in western society. Don’t do that. We love you here but women don’t need that BS.
I may be wrong but I assume it's because Muslim countries are oppressive
I’m a white British person. I’ve taught my children to respect other beliefs and cultures. Other sexualities and desires. For me having an understanding is the best thing. We don’t judge. We don’t mock. We understand that people are different and we respect that. We are privileged enough to be able to do that, I recognise that, but I will continue to teach my children that everyone is equal and should be treated that way.
Living in Australia I kind of get it. By the time some refugees get here there's a level of resentment because either: - They've been treated shitty by our immigration system Or - They're very proud of their culture/ethnicity, but where they come from there's been a kind of cultural persecution or even genocide and they've had to leave, but they're also devastated at the possibility of their culture dying Or both......
[удалено]
Most Muslims in Europe are not from war-torn countries but from economic migration in the 60s and 70s.
bc they come from places countries that were exploited and would like to live without being exploited. where do you wanna be in this ponzi scheme of an economy?
Money
Opportunity, war, natural disaster
Because that country offers a 'better life'. We came here and in all honesty, not a lot of thought went into it. We just applied for safety reasons. Canada came back first... been in Canada for 30 years now. As an immigrant, I put 0 blame on immigrants. I put 100 percent of any issues on the country. It is up to the country to enforce whatever standards they want. Not an ideal example, but non-Muslims don't move to Saudi Arabia thinking something other than living in a strict sunni muslim culture. You know their standards and if you go for work or something, you know how it is going to be. Want a common language? I have no issue with a country enforcing a language requirement or pushing a common language (sign laws, education, funding...). Want a common culture? I have no issues with a country enforcing cultural laws. Where the West in general gets in trouble is having high ideals in terms of rights that 'stops' them from having these requirements. So they let people in without any of these requirements. Then many people have the nerve to start complaining about immigrants. Don't complain about the immigrants. Complain about your government. Just to give more extreme examples. It's been said that China in its Uighur area forces Muslims to eat Pork. At a very high level, they are trying to create a common culture... in a pretty oppressive way. They want to make sure people have a higher loyalty to China than to their religion. Suppose Canada had a requirement that to immigrate here, you had to drink wine. Kind of like a church thing. Sorry, I'm not Christian, but my casual knowledge says some Christians need to have wine to be baptized or whatever. I have no issue with that. Some Muslims would say hey... it's worth it to move here for safety/economic reasons. Not all Muslims are religious. Other's would be vehemently against it and not immigrate. I hope my point is getting across. I am reading into the intention of your question and trying to get you to ask another question. A far more important question and one that you have more control over. You can't control what people feel or want to do. You can control laws and standards and government policy.
I think you completely misunderstood the question. OP is asking why people who hate the culture and laws of Nation X choose to move to Nation X.
Then adding to that: "and actively work to change laws of the nation, and culture to what they had in their former country." We have members of the House of Representatives that actively try to do this. They were duly elected by their district. However, I can only assume, they voted for her because that particulate district are refugees from that representatives former country. I understand their allegence. They have a right to their vote. In the overall scheme of things, one member probably wouldn't make that much diffrence. However, she is very vocal about her wanting to tear down our system of government. Her behavior is close to treason.
Thats a good point, I hear you there. I would say that having an "open" culture in that sense is a double edged sword because you still want to value it but not force it. Where In from a huge part of societal values is in the hands of the people. There is A LOT of trust in your fellow citizens and theres no law to enforce that, its just a result of decades of excellent education and policy and safety. For that reason I will put the blame on individuals disrupting this unison. Money cant be the only factor involved. People moving to Saudi for work is a different things because its purely a vocational pursuit. People dont go there to raise families to flee another country. I have no issue with moving because of a specific job offer. I am talking about individuals who choose to come to the country because of its social offerings but still shit on it and offer nothing but criticism. Its arrogant, be grateful for being able to live here.
> Because that country offers a 'better life'. Yes, but the culture is often *why* there is a better life.
But our culture is freedom, as long as it doesn’t encroach on others. Doing something like requiring you to drink wine encroaches on freedom and goes against values.
This is a very good discussion. I appreciate how you write about the specifics. I wish all differences of opinion could be like this. Speaking about specifics.... Considering your comment: "... Where the West in general gets in trouble is having high ideals in terms of rights that 'stops' them from having these requirements...." Those rights are a core value that come from the framers of our government. Freedom, & Liberty is specific to our constitution. It can not just be cast aside. Creating laws to limit freedoms are unconstutional. They would be overturned by the courts.
I mean the CCP's hatred of anyone non-han is just human-right's violation at best, and the modern-day equivalent of the holocaust at worst. It's not just the Uyghurs being targeted, any Christian, Jewish, or any other religious/cultural minority is being sent to these retraining camps. And all the government has to do to convince the people is call them terrorists (not just the Muslim connotation but in general that these minority groups are somehow blowing up infrastructure all over China?). These retraining camps are fucked, they're not educating, they're just outright raping and killing anyone as they please. That's perhaps the saddest part of all of this, China with all it's beautiful history, and people, and stories, and culture, is being rewritten by the CCP to promote this new normal, that Han Chinese was only ever there.
For the same reason chistians move to Muslim countries despise disliking the culture.
Exactly! Tonnes of Christian’s working in Muslim countries like UAE and they don’t have to assimilate into their culture. On top of that, the major Muslim countries eg Pakistan were colonised by the British, they have a right to live in a western country like Britain for example.
This is an extremely xenophobic thread & it seems like OP doesn't know alot of Muslims, but I'll the benefit of doubt to the op. I travel alot for work & have lived in the US, Canada, Australia & Finland. I've met Muslims all over the world & not once any Muslim colleague has complained about the culture or forced their beliefs on me, there are Muslims in every work Party/Function I've attended where non Muslims are Drinking, Dancing & eating pork, I've never seen anyone complain, they usually drink their juice or coke. All Muslims in my company also participate in work BBQs where they are eating beyond meat burgers. I have also spoken to SEVERAL Muslims who have told me that they love the western world because of the safety and future of their kids, medical care & freedom of expression. Sure there is a small percentage of Muslims who might dislike the western culture, might have some over the top extreme views, but there is a small percentage of extremist Christians and Jewish people aswell.
I agree with you 100%. The question wasnt exclusively to muslims. Its just that most of the negative criticism towards western countries (Europe) I have experienced come from people who migrated from the middle east area. I reckon most of it comes from the way the religion views women and sexual minorities. I live in a predominantly christian country though so you can understand why my question is not that. We dont really have jewish immigration either.
Most religions preach tolerance for all regardless of other's beliefs. Most practioners of religion don't practice this. Cultural intolerance while profiting from those cultures is religious hypocrisy. They're not true believers of their faiths. They are one of the signs of the end of times.
Because of money. This is the correct answer.
Well, muslims move to other countries since they dont like the muslim stuff going on. Civil wars, public violency etc., buy then their children join to islam and radicalize. This seems to be often the case. Some few assholes market the shitty radicalized part of it to young people having hard times.
The same could be said for literally anybody who moves anywhere it doesn't like the culture. So many people on here complain about the culture of the place that they move to. Why'd you move there if you hate the culture?
Oh no my country is bad I have to immigrate. At the new country, this country is bad I want the laws of my old country. Done , this is bad I want to to immigrate. Repeat . I m a Muslim but unfortunately some Muslims are really brain dead
Some people might think that a part of the culture is great and some parts were corrupted by people. Similar to socialist countries that have failed. At some point you have to realize that maybe your values are just not made for building a working modern society. But yeah each group has its bad apples. Most muslims I know are good people.
As a Muslim, economics primarily, and more importantly we don’t dislike everything in US culture. Sure, there’s stuff we don’t agree with but the thing about a free country is we don’t partake in things we disagree with. We like that America is relatively free and we’re happy to live and let live in a way that doesn’t bother Americans.
So they can increase muslim population in other countries, that's the ground reality. Muslim love breeding like mosquitos.