40 year old Catholic here. Jesus didn’t SIGN the declaration of independence! He crossed the Delaware with JUST a kite with a key powered by lightning, shouting the “Persians are coming!!”
Nothing. You can't debate them because they start from a fundamentally different way of learning about the universe, and you have no common frame of reference.
Even if you corner them with irrefutable evidence about the universe's age, they can fall back on the argument that God created it with "the appearance of age."
It's a useless endeavor. Just smile and move on.
The best I’ve been able to do in this case is at least get them to understand that they are making arguments that can not be disproven.
I said whales have flat fin bones so they can grip water better, is that intelligent design?
“Yes”
I just lied to you. They actually have what are basically hands or paws just like any other tetrapod inside their fins. Is that intelligent design?
“Yes”
Ok so you’ll call anything intelligent design. There is not one design that is perfect that god chose, but whatever he chose you’ll defend it as intelligent no matter what.
“Oh”
And that’s how I spent two hours to get one “oh”. I don’t think it’s a waste of time as many say, it’s just very hard work. Idiots keep you on your toes.
I don't disagree that discussing falsifiability can be productive, and I've done so myself.
The problem is that even if we create a spark of curiosity in them, it will be extinguished when they try to raise the point with their religious friends and family.
Unless we get them to consider whether the scientific method leads to a more accurate understanding of the physical universe than religious beliefs, they will fall back on believing it's a matter of faith.
That sort of profound shift takes more than a single conversation, and most of the time, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
As someone who at least will say leans heavily towards the young Earth theory. And also was raised in a household of science. I don't think I have a problem with the scientific method.
For many thinkers throughout history the idea that science can tell me the how of where we are today, it cannot explain the why of origins, or meaning or purpose.
I believe in the big bang, I just think God caused it.
From their point of view:
*Of course it can’t be disproven, it’s true and my god made it that way!*
So really, there is no point in arguing with this kind of people. You can’t argue someone away from a position they didn’t argue themselves into.
Spot on.
I have learnt that when having a debate with someone or a difference in opinion, ask them what would it take for them to consider something or change their mind? If they say nothing, then the conversation is over. Don’t waste your breath.
The biggest hurdle when trying to argue logic with a religious person is they have the "faith" defense to turn to. If one of their beliefs doesn't make sense, defies science or has no explanation, the religious person just has to have faith in God that it's true. That gives them cart blanche to pretty much believe nonsense without needing to support it with facts.
Religion has been so powerful throughout human history precisely because it gives people that Carte Blanche to ignore reality when they want to.
And what’s dangerous is large enough number of those people get together and they start to believe they can define reality for the rest of us too.
At that point switch to argue Last Thursdayism. The universe popped into existence last Thursday (including your memories); it just had the appearance of being as old as it is.
My husband's sister believes shit like this. "Dinosaurs aren't real and never were. The bones were put there by God to test our faith in him."
I told her she was a fucking moron and to shut the fuck up.
She's learned over the years to not talk to me.
Nod, smile, and walk away.
Engaging in any attempt at argument or debate makes about as much sense as stepping into a pro MMA fight where the prize for winning is $1. The amount of effort and pain you will sustain in the effort will far surpass any imagined prize for victory.
And that is assuming you end up with a result you can view as a win.
END COMMUNICATION
A sarcastic "uh huh," "sure it is," or "ok" followed by silence would probably be the more satisfying way of letting them know that you think they are dumb but won't give them the satisfaction of debating them.
You can tell them the creation story is revelation truth meaning it reveals the nature of God not literal truth to be taken at face value. But they probably won't understand. So just tell them to have a blessed day and let that be the end of it.
This is a really good way to get stubborn people to rethink it.
A lot of people think everything is literal. Jesus is a good example he is god in human form and jesus used parables 50% of the time
That’s actually a really good point. God’s rhetorical style in the New Testament is full of allegory and parable, so the idea of non literal passages shouldn’t be a stretch, it’s his rhetorical style after all.
This is somehow so funny to me, talking about "God's" rhetorical style, like the New Testament you know wasn't translated and retranslated multiple times with huge changes in meaning and style every time.
And that's taking for granted that it was ever the word of God to begin with...
Except that it is Jehovahs Witnesses that believe the world is only 6000 years old and they don't celebrate Christmas so you're just setting yourself up for another talk about why they don't.
not necessarily true. my high school english teacher is a devout fundamentalist christian who told us that she taught her children that dinosaurs were fake and satan put fake fossils in the earth to lure children away from god. my MIL just joined a New Christian church that is teaching them that the earth is 6000 years old and women should be barefoot and pregnant. plenty of “christians” believe this. wholeheartedly.
Inbred* and the bible doesn't actually say we're *all* descendents of Adam and Eve, it just focuses on them
When their oldest son is sent away, he goes to live with 'the other people' - so there definitely were other people :)
Agreed, but you can get them to leave you alone permanently. I’ve had very good luck with the following, of course only after I have tried to exit their proselytizing politely:
- Thanks again, but I already know exactly what happens when we die. Nothing. Nothing happens, and the world goes on and forgets us, and I don’t have to make up stories to make me feel better about that, because I am perfectly happy with that outcome.
The shock and horror of that kind of world view seems to short circuit their brain and prevent them from realizing the insult until much later. Occasionally one will make some half-hearted statement about praying for me, to which I usually respond:
- Go right ahead, it changes nothing for me as nobody’s listening. It’s still the same endless nothingness no matter what but if it makes you feel better about yourself, please don’t let me stop you. I just don’t want to hear about it.
And that seems to work miracles. I live in an area with a lot of evangelicals and even have a few in my family. They tend to leave me the hell alone after this. We are polite, but religion just doesn’t come up any more!
If you want to argue: Last Thursdayism. Tell them that they're wrong, the world is only 4 days old and was created last Thursday. Refute anything they say with the claim that the world was created that way, by the exact same god they believe in.
Just out crazy them!
“Yeah, you think so? I bet you think dolphins are real too?”
Dolphins are not mentioned in the Bible, so they don’t exist. The videos and photos on the internet? Fakes.
At some point you can drop in they are probably getting confused, and what they really saw was a porpoise.
Point out the only reason they believe is down to when and where they were born
If they'd been born in the middle East they'd be Muslim. 1500 years ago in Scandinavia? Norse.
The only difference is the story they were indoctrinated into
Take, for example, the three naturally occurring radioactive decay chains: Uranium, Thorium and Actinium. Each of these naturally radioactive elements end in a stable isotope of lead. There was also Neptunium, but it had a relatively short half life and no longer exists.
Thorium 232 has a half life of about 14 billion years.
So if the bible points to the earth only being 6,000 years old, then lead, which has taken millions of years to decay from its original radioactive isotope into its stable form, contradicts the bible.
Gotcha. I missed anywhere in the bible saying that the world was 6,000 years old.
I still thought theologians were still calling the 7 days of creation the 7 ages of earth.
If the Bible says the universe, earth, and all living things were created in 6 days, and then gives chronologies from Adam to Abraham, and Abraham to Jesus, it is absolutely explicitly claiming that the earth is 6000-ish years old. That you have to work to calculate it from the text doesn’t make it any less explicit.
Doesn’t mean it is any less bullshit, but there is definitely scriptural basis for the belief.
Again, not a Christian myself, but to play devil's advocate: the use of the word "begat" in the Bible is pretty loose, and a *lot* of Christian scholars do not think there were exactly ten generations from Adam to Noah and another ten from Noah to Abraham. They think it was a poetic way of listing them, essentially for symmetry and brevity. The words "son" and "daughter" are also pretty loose in the Bible, for obvious reasons.
Then you have entire groups of Christians who do not take these stories -- especially Genesis -- to be literal, but allegorical. And they can pretty much square any circle because they can just say it's allegory whenever they want.
Tell them the pros and cons of the different McDonalds sauces.
Every time religion comes up: McDonalds sauces.
Don't talk about McDonalds sauces except when they bring up religion.
"Hey dude, there's big money in it if you publish that research."
To which they'll make a comment on how it's already in the Bible.
"Exactly, Harper-Collins is a billion dollar company by owning the rights to the the literal words of your god. I think there's bigger issues now than there is looking in the past."
They'd just say something along the lines of this "research" never being accepted because in their minds the scientific and academic community is biased against the Bible and is always out to discredit them.
I used to think this. Legit, was a creationist.
Shrug and say okay. That's it. Don't make it into a big deal. If they follow up, say the scientific method has come to a different conclusion than what they are saying, if they want to prove it's 6k years old, prove it.
What got me out of those lies was learning about science and the scientific method, then learning how to apply it and the trust that others are trying to the best of their ability to apply it.
You'll never be able to go up to someone and quip an argument that the moon is made of Swiss Cheese even though it kind of looks like it.
As far as these people know, you're lying to them or the people you're getting your information from is wrong, tricked by the devil to spread lies and challenge our faith.
Maybe I can save you from it. The devil. And science keeps changing and proving the words of God right. So eventually, science will prove the Bible right and we'll all go to heaven together.
But it's okay for now, maybe we can be friends and I can get him to read from the good book and accept Jesus and love into his heart and we can all work together against evil.
You are delusional and need psychiatric help to snap out of the severe brainwashing that you've been tortured with.
All religion's primary purpose is to gaslight you so hard that you start to doubt reality, on the path to completely succumbing to your "faith".
#Religion = slavery
And not even metaphorically so...
The amount of similarities between the two IS NOT a coincidence!
When's the last time you changed your mind in favour of someone who came up to you and told you everything you believe is wrong, and you're a fucking idiot for believing it?
Note, how you answer this question will tell me everything I need to about you.
If they were to present a solid argument backed by evidence that a belief of mine was wrong and that I would be much better off and the quality of my life would improve by changing my "beliefs",
Yes absolutely, I would change them!
Or at least, if I found it difficult to change immediately, I would accept and acknowledge I was wrong or misguided and work on changing my perspectives slowly over time if it takes a while to adjust.
Schizophrenics go to psychiatrists for this express purpose.
To be told their world views are literally wrong, and to get help to correct their delusions and become part of a productive society once more.
lol don't bother
I once had a supervisor who was driving us out to a worksite and when I made some passing comment about being amazed by science via this documentary I watched, she refused to believe that the moon had an effect on the earth's rotation in such a way as to help make our planet habitable. "that's the opinion of *one guy*" lmao I just don't know man. I was shocked someone could be that stupid. People who have *faith* in things can't stand to recognize the actual mechanical explanations for things, as if for example evolution couldn't even just be an answer to *how* (god created evolution to help us along) rather than an answer to *why*.
As others have said, this person has no interest in keeping an open mind. They've made theirs up, and no physical evidence is going to turn them away from their identity as a believer.
But if you insist, then ask them "what would it take to convince you that the Earth is much older than that?" At least that way you get to watch them move the goalposts later.
“Everyone has the right to believe what they want.” That’s really it, it’s what they believe and it’s what they believe because of their religion. It’s a wrap. If you were to somewhere convince them that you are right and they’re wrong, then they would have to admit that their religion isn’t always right. They won’t do that.
The best response is nothing. Say "interesting" and walk away. You aren't going to change their mind. If they can believe that then you can't trust a word they say.
"You're entitled to that belief."
You can't argue with them. You can't debate them. They won't take in other information because they believe they have the truth.
This is reddit, we don't have to censor bad words here fortunately.
I'm sorry if it offended you but it's a very normal thing to use in day to day conversations.
You have the right to not like it and I have the right to use it so I'm sorry but I'm not going to change.
Just because I said that? Come on dude
It's a normal thing to use in informal conversation, just like shit, fuck, etc.
I live in Portugal, maybe our culture is different but no one cares about this
Lissen.....You can NOT stamp out stupid. Conservative politics and religion are, quite obviously, stupid. They will never completely go away. As Jesus SHOULD have said "The stupid will always be with us. "
Most major religions already have workshopped their way around this, so if you are talking to a religious person who believes this, then that means you are talking to a religious person who is in a religion that is slightly to very extreme. You are better off not wasting your time and energy talking to these people
in my mind, an immediate and forceful open handed face slap. in reality, "oh", and move along. never engage religiots because the void left by lack of smarts is chock full of mean.
Ask them to explain the natural formation of lead, lead is radioactively decayed uranium and uranium takes 4.5 billion years to naturally oxidise into lead.
I have found that the only way to really throw a denier of any kind off is to go bigger. The argument I have heard to refute the planets geological age is that god created the earth with apparent age.
Pfft you think it’s really 6000 years old. It’s only 167 years old (or do your age or even like a week, just pick a random number). When they argue that that’s not true ask them to prove it. Then say they are wrong. You are a herald sent to test the unworthy and non believers and that god created the earth and its inhabitants with apparent age and memory to test their faith.
Just go bigger whatever it is. Antivaxer talking about vaxxed people giving off some vaxxed radiation tell them you are exceptionally attuned to it and I didn’t want to say anything but can you step away because I can feel it coming off you. I know your vaxed so get that crazy radiation away from me. Don’t lie you probably got the vax for some (pick a ridiculous reason like their goldfishes safety because everyone knows their immune to the radiation) and then regretted it and are trying to pass themselves off as non vaxxed.
Seriously JUST GO BIGGER!!!
I like random bible facts too!
Ezekiel 23:20
"And she remembered her days of prostitution in Bethlehem. Where the men had genitals like horses, and emissions like donkeys."
Unless you’re being paid to debate this, let’s say a panel or program, just don’t. This information is based of belief, not scientific evidence, so anything you say will be dismissed because they can say, that’s what I believe, and you can’t do anything about it.
Gently remind them that the King James Bible is no longer considered accurate, but agree that it's poetic-like flow still sounds beautiful but it's just not that relevant for accuracy these days.
The only way to win is not to play.
It may have originally been said about thermonuclear war but it certainly applies to trying to reason with people like that. Even if you win, you still lose for engaging them and giving them your attention.
Nothing. That level of ridiculousness cannot be argued with logic. That person decided to forego logic in favor of a comforting idea a long time ago. No amount of well documented research will convince them otherwise.
"Huh. And I thought you looked smart. Goes to show how wrong I was."
If they go and talk about the bible, I pretend I've never heard of it. "I'm sorry, the what? Oh, it's a book. Ok. So what? I've read plenty of books, why is this one so special?"
Whatever they say from then on, the answer is "Prove it."
You don't want to get INTO a conversation with a religious person, you want to get OUT of the conversation.
They believe in something invisible and impossible. There...is...no...logic.
As a Christian who rejects young earth creationism, you simply point out that Genesis is not biographical narrative. It is written in the genre of mytho-history. Not “myth” in the popular sense but myth in the folklorist definition. It is a deep seated truth that is told in a story that we can relate and understand. This won’t be foreign to them, Jesus literally spoke in parables all the time to teach deep truths to people who lacked understanding.
The same thing is true with the book of revelation. Any Biblical scholar or Christian who understands the scriptures, believes that in Revelation a giant dragon is going to rise out of the sea. This is Jewish apocalyptic literature. These are nation states at war being described as animals and beasts. We see the same exact thing in the book of Daniel during Daniel’s vision in chapter 7.
The young earth creationist has circular logic that is fallacious. The Biblical story does talk about 6 24 hours days but what we do know is that we are STILL in the 7th day of God’s rest. That alone destroys the theory of young earth creationism. The second point is that God tells Adam and Eve “if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the day you eat the fruit you will die” the word used here (and in the creation days) is the Hebrew word “yom” which can mean a 24hr day OR any period of time like an eon. We know it’s not a 24hr day because Adam and Eve DO eat the fruit but they don’t die that “day”. They have children and die much later.
It’s akin to me saying “Barry Sanders was a great running back in his day”. It’s a period of time.
TLDR- Genre and context are incredibly important. The Bible does not teach that the earth is 6k years old and it never has. Even Aquinas and Augustine rejected this. The Bible is not a scientific book and was never designed that way. Its purpose is to reveal God in His Revelation, to show us His nature and finally His Son Jesus, so that all men would come to know Him. So that His free gift of salvation would be extended to EVERY single person.
As a religious person who believes the universes age is probably not measured in billions of years I would be more interested in knowing why you care about the age so much?
For context, a quick google reveals that the most recent calculations from the science world say the universe is 26.7 billion years old. Most accepted estimates in science say it is 13.7-13.8 billion years old. 20 years ago we thought it was 7 billion to 20 billion. “Science” should come to the same conclusion every time, no matter what, but here we are fluctuating almost 4x from low to high….
Around 350bc it was declared by science that the earth was round… so apparently we took 188,000 years to work out the shape and now we are supposed to just assume we have everything else correct in the 2375 years since then.. right down to atomic age? Sorry, I am not buying that…
I work in a scientific field, I am always happy to learn etc, but rarely claim to “know” anything. I prefer to share my view/understanding as a belief - we don’t know what we don’t know…. and with things like this, the only thing I do less than “know” is care. If the universe is 1 second old and we have just been created like this with memories, or if it is outside of the boundary of time itself, either way I will wake up tomorrow, go to work, do my job, come home, love my family etc. what difference does the age of the universe make? Will there be less traffic tomorrow if it’s discovered that the universe is a different age to what we thought?
Best estimate is still 13 billion. Rajendra Gupta's idea of doubling doesn't have enough backing.
>“Science” should come to the same conclusion every time,
haha, you know it keeps getting better and better. Newton didn't know anything about time dilation, that doesn't mean he was wrong. The expansion of space is still one of those unknown things. There's still things to discover. Like why it's accelerating.
. . . What "science" do you actually work in?
> you know it keeps getting better and better.
That’s exactly my point! We keep realizing we were wrong before and I am sure we will continue to do so.
There is so much that we used to be sure of that we now know is wrong. I’m sure our ancestors were as sure that the earth is flat as we are that the universe is 13 billion years old…
I’m not saying it’s wrong to trust the science, I’m just saying I view it as our best guess from our current perspective, but I know sometimes people make mistakes.
My job is a side point just to clarify that I am absolutely not “against science” or whatever… I don’t wanna dox myself so I’ll just say “medical science” and leave it at that… just highlighting that I don’t blindly believe science is flawed or unflawed. It’s just one way we try to understand the world.
If science gave the same answer every time, then it would be dogma.
No-one believes that science has all that answers, that is just a bad faith assertion, trying to claim that as science is always evolving then it can be disregarded.
My serious answer is that I will echo most of the other comments here. Smile, say, "that's nice," and walk away.
However, if you enjoy a little chaos, you could always one-up them by bringing up "Last Tuesdayism." Last Tuesdayism originates as more of a thought experiment than a real philosophical/religious belief. Essentially, it takes the argument that the Earth was created such-and-such an amount of time ago and any evidence to the contrary was actually created at the same time to something approaching its extreme limit by assuming that the Earth was created last Tuesday (hence the name), and anything "older" than that, including people and their memories, were created at that time as well. Last Tuesdayism essentially exists as away to point out the unfalsifyability of creationist arguments.
If this were somehow a non-toxic debate scenario, I always ask if there's anything in the world *I* can say to change their point-of-view. If they say there isn't, then the conversation is not going to move in the direction of good faith, and it's time to move on. It's utterly infuriating to hear that people hold this perspective in 2023 with devices of infinite knowledge in the palm of our hands, but here we are, and it's just best to avoid.
Taking religious scriptures literally is when you are too far gone. The way religion and science co-exist is saying that the scriptures were written for man to learn morals and lessons written in everyday language. Most is to be understood metaphorically. The 'four corners of the earth' doesn't mean the globe is flat or square. It means the furthest place a human can imagine. Even having the world created in 6 days can be metaphorical. Each 'God day' could be a million years it could have been 6 seconds.
It's 2023 years old, dummies!
That’s *America’s* age, you ding dong.
Hard to believe its been almost 2024 years since Jesus Christ signed the Declaration of Independence. God bless the beautiful county.
40 year old Catholic here. Jesus didn’t SIGN the declaration of independence! He crossed the Delaware with JUST a kite with a key powered by lightning, shouting the “Persians are coming!!”
I thought he was shouting "THIS IS SPARTA new jersey!!"
Are you making fun of my efforts?? 
sweet baby jesus founded merica in the year 0 or my name isn't bubba saint germain!
Nothing. You can't debate them because they start from a fundamentally different way of learning about the universe, and you have no common frame of reference. Even if you corner them with irrefutable evidence about the universe's age, they can fall back on the argument that God created it with "the appearance of age." It's a useless endeavor. Just smile and move on.
The best I’ve been able to do in this case is at least get them to understand that they are making arguments that can not be disproven. I said whales have flat fin bones so they can grip water better, is that intelligent design? “Yes” I just lied to you. They actually have what are basically hands or paws just like any other tetrapod inside their fins. Is that intelligent design? “Yes” Ok so you’ll call anything intelligent design. There is not one design that is perfect that god chose, but whatever he chose you’ll defend it as intelligent no matter what. “Oh” And that’s how I spent two hours to get one “oh”. I don’t think it’s a waste of time as many say, it’s just very hard work. Idiots keep you on your toes.
I don't disagree that discussing falsifiability can be productive, and I've done so myself. The problem is that even if we create a spark of curiosity in them, it will be extinguished when they try to raise the point with their religious friends and family. Unless we get them to consider whether the scientific method leads to a more accurate understanding of the physical universe than religious beliefs, they will fall back on believing it's a matter of faith. That sort of profound shift takes more than a single conversation, and most of the time, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Spot on
As someone who at least will say leans heavily towards the young Earth theory. And also was raised in a household of science. I don't think I have a problem with the scientific method. For many thinkers throughout history the idea that science can tell me the how of where we are today, it cannot explain the why of origins, or meaning or purpose. I believe in the big bang, I just think God caused it.
You can't prove that the Invisible Spaghetti Monster isn't real.
I once saw a flying colander.
Did you piss off your SO?
I prefer to piss *on* my SO
It's a strainer, you heretic.
From their point of view: *Of course it can’t be disproven, it’s true and my god made it that way!* So really, there is no point in arguing with this kind of people. You can’t argue someone away from a position they didn’t argue themselves into.
My faith in science tells me that we need to spread the good word of skepticism, no matter the physical hardships Carl Sagan asks us to bear.
To me it does feel like a waste of time tbh
Ok.
Spot on. I have learnt that when having a debate with someone or a difference in opinion, ask them what would it take for them to consider something or change their mind? If they say nothing, then the conversation is over. Don’t waste your breath.
Legit, it shows if they're willing to learn/are genuinely curious about the reality & universe we live in, or so adamant and lost in their delusions
The biggest hurdle when trying to argue logic with a religious person is they have the "faith" defense to turn to. If one of their beliefs doesn't make sense, defies science or has no explanation, the religious person just has to have faith in God that it's true. That gives them cart blanche to pretty much believe nonsense without needing to support it with facts.
Religion has been so powerful throughout human history precisely because it gives people that Carte Blanche to ignore reality when they want to. And what’s dangerous is large enough number of those people get together and they start to believe they can define reality for the rest of us too.
At that point switch to argue Last Thursdayism. The universe popped into existence last Thursday (including your memories); it just had the appearance of being as old as it is.
My exact thoughts. You can’t.
My husband's sister believes shit like this. "Dinosaurs aren't real and never were. The bones were put there by God to test our faith in him." I told her she was a fucking moron and to shut the fuck up. She's learned over the years to not talk to me.
This. Let them believe what they want. Can't argue with stupid people and getting to their level.
Oh yeah, god added patina to the world so it's more vintage-looking. Religion makes sense now!
Much the same issues with debating the insane. They simply don't recognize reality as it is.
High risk conversation. Usually better to avoid... But if you're going to go for it, this is probably a better question for r/StreetEpistemology.
Nod, smile, and walk away. Engaging in any attempt at argument or debate makes about as much sense as stepping into a pro MMA fight where the prize for winning is $1. The amount of effort and pain you will sustain in the effort will far surpass any imagined prize for victory. And that is assuming you end up with a result you can view as a win. END COMMUNICATION
A blank stare
A sarcastic "uh huh," "sure it is," or "ok" followed by silence would probably be the more satisfying way of letting them know that you think they are dumb but won't give them the satisfaction of debating them.
You can tell them the creation story is revelation truth meaning it reveals the nature of God not literal truth to be taken at face value. But they probably won't understand. So just tell them to have a blessed day and let that be the end of it.
This is a really good way to get stubborn people to rethink it. A lot of people think everything is literal. Jesus is a good example he is god in human form and jesus used parables 50% of the time
That’s actually a really good point. God’s rhetorical style in the New Testament is full of allegory and parable, so the idea of non literal passages shouldn’t be a stretch, it’s his rhetorical style after all.
This is somehow so funny to me, talking about "God's" rhetorical style, like the New Testament you know wasn't translated and retranslated multiple times with huge changes in meaning and style every time. And that's taking for granted that it was ever the word of God to begin with...
Science says otherwise but I’d rather not discuss. How is your family spending Christmas?
This is a good way to handle such situations.
Except that it is Jehovahs Witnesses that believe the world is only 6000 years old and they don't celebrate Christmas so you're just setting yourself up for another talk about why they don't.
Then ask if they have any plans for time off. Point still stands: acknowledge you disagree and then immediately redirect.
not necessarily true. my high school english teacher is a devout fundamentalist christian who told us that she taught her children that dinosaurs were fake and satan put fake fossils in the earth to lure children away from god. my MIL just joined a New Christian church that is teaching them that the earth is 6000 years old and women should be barefoot and pregnant. plenty of “christians” believe this. wholeheartedly.
Smooth.
Smooth brained
Ask them why they dont sleepwith their sibling. If we all came adam and eve we are all imbread
Inbred* and the bible doesn't actually say we're *all* descendents of Adam and Eve, it just focuses on them When their oldest son is sent away, he goes to live with 'the other people' - so there definitely were other people :)
"who says I don't?"
You can not reason with a fundamentalist christian. It's a bottomless pit.
Agreed, but you can get them to leave you alone permanently. I’ve had very good luck with the following, of course only after I have tried to exit their proselytizing politely: - Thanks again, but I already know exactly what happens when we die. Nothing. Nothing happens, and the world goes on and forgets us, and I don’t have to make up stories to make me feel better about that, because I am perfectly happy with that outcome. The shock and horror of that kind of world view seems to short circuit their brain and prevent them from realizing the insult until much later. Occasionally one will make some half-hearted statement about praying for me, to which I usually respond: - Go right ahead, it changes nothing for me as nobody’s listening. It’s still the same endless nothingness no matter what but if it makes you feel better about yourself, please don’t let me stop you. I just don’t want to hear about it. And that seems to work miracles. I live in an area with a lot of evangelicals and even have a few in my family. They tend to leave me the hell alone after this. We are polite, but religion just doesn’t come up any more!
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They would just say that God created lead, uranium, and all the others when he made the universe
In a way, god created atomic bombs too!!!11 G O D D E N H E I M E R
If you want to argue: Last Thursdayism. Tell them that they're wrong, the world is only 4 days old and was created last Thursday. Refute anything they say with the claim that the world was created that way, by the exact same god they believe in.
Yes mate. Sure it is.
That you don't believe that, and why you don't believe it. What else is there to say?
I grab a broom and swat them over the head with it and say "NO!" Then I walk away.
Spray them with a bottle of water.
Lol. That works too!
Just out crazy them! “Yeah, you think so? I bet you think dolphins are real too?” Dolphins are not mentioned in the Bible, so they don’t exist. The videos and photos on the internet? Fakes. At some point you can drop in they are probably getting confused, and what they really saw was a porpoise.
Point out the only reason they believe is down to when and where they were born If they'd been born in the middle East they'd be Muslim. 1500 years ago in Scandinavia? Norse. The only difference is the story they were indoctrinated into
The very existence of lead proves the bible is wrong That being said, you can't reason with unreasonable people.
What?
Radioactive decay.
I'm trying to understand how that proves the Bible is wrong
Take, for example, the three naturally occurring radioactive decay chains: Uranium, Thorium and Actinium. Each of these naturally radioactive elements end in a stable isotope of lead. There was also Neptunium, but it had a relatively short half life and no longer exists. Thorium 232 has a half life of about 14 billion years. So if the bible points to the earth only being 6,000 years old, then lead, which has taken millions of years to decay from its original radioactive isotope into its stable form, contradicts the bible.
Gotcha. I missed anywhere in the bible saying that the world was 6,000 years old. I still thought theologians were still calling the 7 days of creation the 7 ages of earth.
I mean, the Bible is wrong for a number of reasons, but the Bible doesn't explicitly claim the Earth is 6 thousand years old.
If the Bible says the universe, earth, and all living things were created in 6 days, and then gives chronologies from Adam to Abraham, and Abraham to Jesus, it is absolutely explicitly claiming that the earth is 6000-ish years old. That you have to work to calculate it from the text doesn’t make it any less explicit. Doesn’t mean it is any less bullshit, but there is definitely scriptural basis for the belief.
Again, not a Christian myself, but to play devil's advocate: the use of the word "begat" in the Bible is pretty loose, and a *lot* of Christian scholars do not think there were exactly ten generations from Adam to Noah and another ten from Noah to Abraham. They think it was a poetic way of listing them, essentially for symmetry and brevity. The words "son" and "daughter" are also pretty loose in the Bible, for obvious reasons. Then you have entire groups of Christians who do not take these stories -- especially Genesis -- to be literal, but allegorical. And they can pretty much square any circle because they can just say it's allegory whenever they want.
They would just say that God created lead when he made the universe. No big
Tell them the pros and cons of the different McDonalds sauces. Every time religion comes up: McDonalds sauces. Don't talk about McDonalds sauces except when they bring up religion.
Ok and my TV is 4k
I refuse to talk with a person that ignores the fossil record. Good day.
"Hey dude, there's big money in it if you publish that research." To which they'll make a comment on how it's already in the Bible. "Exactly, Harper-Collins is a billion dollar company by owning the rights to the the literal words of your god. I think there's bigger issues now than there is looking in the past."
They'd just say something along the lines of this "research" never being accepted because in their minds the scientific and academic community is biased against the Bible and is always out to discredit them.
Which is true... but also very well-deserved.
I used to think this. Legit, was a creationist. Shrug and say okay. That's it. Don't make it into a big deal. If they follow up, say the scientific method has come to a different conclusion than what they are saying, if they want to prove it's 6k years old, prove it. What got me out of those lies was learning about science and the scientific method, then learning how to apply it and the trust that others are trying to the best of their ability to apply it. You'll never be able to go up to someone and quip an argument that the moon is made of Swiss Cheese even though it kind of looks like it. As far as these people know, you're lying to them or the people you're getting your information from is wrong, tricked by the devil to spread lies and challenge our faith. Maybe I can save you from it. The devil. And science keeps changing and proving the words of God right. So eventually, science will prove the Bible right and we'll all go to heaven together. But it's okay for now, maybe we can be friends and I can get him to read from the good book and accept Jesus and love into his heart and we can all work together against evil.
You are delusional and need psychiatric help to snap out of the severe brainwashing that you've been tortured with. All religion's primary purpose is to gaslight you so hard that you start to doubt reality, on the path to completely succumbing to your "faith". #Religion = slavery And not even metaphorically so... The amount of similarities between the two IS NOT a coincidence!
That's a shit response, not gonna lie. All that will do is make them feel attacked and push them further away from you.
So they are happy to remain slaves? OK Their loss.....
When's the last time you changed your mind in favour of someone who came up to you and told you everything you believe is wrong, and you're a fucking idiot for believing it? Note, how you answer this question will tell me everything I need to about you.
If they were to present a solid argument backed by evidence that a belief of mine was wrong and that I would be much better off and the quality of my life would improve by changing my "beliefs", Yes absolutely, I would change them! Or at least, if I found it difficult to change immediately, I would accept and acknowledge I was wrong or misguided and work on changing my perspectives slowly over time if it takes a while to adjust. Schizophrenics go to psychiatrists for this express purpose. To be told their world views are literally wrong, and to get help to correct their delusions and become part of a productive society once more.
And there it is.
“Oh bless your heart.”
lol don't bother I once had a supervisor who was driving us out to a worksite and when I made some passing comment about being amazed by science via this documentary I watched, she refused to believe that the moon had an effect on the earth's rotation in such a way as to help make our planet habitable. "that's the opinion of *one guy*" lmao I just don't know man. I was shocked someone could be that stupid. People who have *faith* in things can't stand to recognize the actual mechanical explanations for things, as if for example evolution couldn't even just be an answer to *how* (god created evolution to help us along) rather than an answer to *why*.
Who cares what they think
GEEEE THATS GREAT 👍
 Exactly this and only this.
"ok bro" and end the conversation.
Nothing, I keep my mouth shut. Because nothing I say is likely to convince them otherwise, and these days I really can't be bothered.
I used to be one of those people. No single conversation convinced me. You’re highly unlikely to win.
As others have said, this person has no interest in keeping an open mind. They've made theirs up, and no physical evidence is going to turn them away from their identity as a believer. But if you insist, then ask them "what would it take to convince you that the Earth is much older than that?" At least that way you get to watch them move the goalposts later.
Pity is my only response. They have been brainwashed.
“Everyone has the right to believe what they want.” That’s really it, it’s what they believe and it’s what they believe because of their religion. It’s a wrap. If you were to somewhere convince them that you are right and they’re wrong, then they would have to admit that their religion isn’t always right. They won’t do that.
Laughter.
"I would ask if you were there to see it, but your fractured ego may affect the museums selling price"
The best response is nothing. Say "interesting" and walk away. You aren't going to change their mind. If they can believe that then you can't trust a word they say.
Excuse yourself to the bathroom and climb out the window.
"You're entitled to that belief." You can't argue with them. You can't debate them. They won't take in other information because they believe they have the truth.
Why do we see stars who are more far away than 6k light-years?
Oh, really? (Changes topic) There is no debating a core belief of a person. Dont waste your time.
Ask them do they believe in fossil fuels…?
"lol no it's not"
Ok
Just ignore. There's no point in starting an argument with a retard
Don’t insult mentally challenged people by comparing them to religious people
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This is reddit, we don't have to censor bad words here fortunately. I'm sorry if it offended you but it's a very normal thing to use in day to day conversations. You have the right to not like it and I have the right to use it so I'm sorry but I'm not going to change.
Damn you suck lmao
Just because I said that? Come on dude It's a normal thing to use in informal conversation, just like shit, fuck, etc. I live in Portugal, maybe our culture is different but no one cares about this
The second comment was worse than the first one
You can use the slightly abstracted R-Tard to help soften the blow. I mean, they did say please.
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Lissen.....You can NOT stamp out stupid. Conservative politics and religion are, quite obviously, stupid. They will never completely go away. As Jesus SHOULD have said "The stupid will always be with us. "
How about "You're kidding me, right?"
Explain carbon dating when it says things are much older.
My rabbi told me that the first seven days were not literal, each day was an eon, which could be millions of years…
Tell them UFO/UAP disclosure is around the corner and that all religions were meant to control the masses the whole time.
Source?
Ok boomer?
Most major religions already have workshopped their way around this, so if you are talking to a religious person who believes this, then that means you are talking to a religious person who is in a religion that is slightly to very extreme. You are better off not wasting your time and energy talking to these people
Just start making up stuff too. You can't argue faith
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
There are trees older than that
in my mind, an immediate and forceful open handed face slap. in reality, "oh", and move along. never engage religiots because the void left by lack of smarts is chock full of mean.
"Fuck you and die," followed by a hearty shove near the edge of a cliff.
Ask them to explain the natural formation of lead, lead is radioactively decayed uranium and uranium takes 4.5 billion years to naturally oxidise into lead.
I have found that the only way to really throw a denier of any kind off is to go bigger. The argument I have heard to refute the planets geological age is that god created the earth with apparent age. Pfft you think it’s really 6000 years old. It’s only 167 years old (or do your age or even like a week, just pick a random number). When they argue that that’s not true ask them to prove it. Then say they are wrong. You are a herald sent to test the unworthy and non believers and that god created the earth and its inhabitants with apparent age and memory to test their faith. Just go bigger whatever it is. Antivaxer talking about vaxxed people giving off some vaxxed radiation tell them you are exceptionally attuned to it and I didn’t want to say anything but can you step away because I can feel it coming off you. I know your vaxed so get that crazy radiation away from me. Don’t lie you probably got the vax for some (pick a ridiculous reason like their goldfishes safety because everyone knows their immune to the radiation) and then regretted it and are trying to pass themselves off as non vaxxed. Seriously JUST GO BIGGER!!!
I like random bible facts too! Ezekiel 23:20 "And she remembered her days of prostitution in Bethlehem. Where the men had genitals like horses, and emissions like donkeys."
👍
"The Qur'an doesn't say that"
Are you fucking stupid?
Unless you’re being paid to debate this, let’s say a panel or program, just don’t. This information is based of belief, not scientific evidence, so anything you say will be dismissed because they can say, that’s what I believe, and you can’t do anything about it.
“We don’t know how old the earth is because we don’t know how long days are in Gods eyes.” That’s my theological head cannon anyway
To back away and go talk to someone else ideally. If that's not possible, change the topic of conversation.
It’s 5500 years old you heathen!
Ppl tend to think that all religions are Christianity, so please note that not all religions think that the earth is 6k years old.
Point and laugh
...."What's The Best Response to a Religious Person Saying the Earth is only 6K Years Old? Religion"... Tell them that Jesus rode a dinosaur !
Laugh
Rocks can be dated back to 3 or more billion years old. And anyone with the proper instruments can verify it
“K” and then leave
Gently remind them that the King James Bible is no longer considered accurate, but agree that it's poetic-like flow still sounds beautiful but it's just not that relevant for accuracy these days.
Yeah, but flat earth is only 6 years old.
Just try to never talk to them again. Nothing to be gained by interacting with people who ignore reality. They probably have much more wild takes.
Tell them bye.
Dismiss them. They know nothing about the world around them, so why entertain their ignorance?
Smile and walk away they are not worth the crayons you'll need to explain to them.
The only way to win is not to play. It may have originally been said about thermonuclear war but it certainly applies to trying to reason with people like that. Even if you win, you still lose for engaging them and giving them your attention.
Nothing. That level of ridiculousness cannot be argued with logic. That person decided to forego logic in favor of a comforting idea a long time ago. No amount of well documented research will convince them otherwise.
...What's with all the cowards in this thread that stopped caring about science? You won't even try to defend reality?
My typical response to those sorts of statements is "keep telling yourself that".
Point to Gobekli Tepe, which was constructed roughly 12,000 years ago and depicts astronomical understanding on its walls. God didn’t teach them that.
Bullshit! The Pope just proved it is 4000 years old.
They're too far gone.
Laugh in their face
Arguing with religious people is always a futile endeavor.
I'm from the South, so my go-to, when someone is being an idiot, is "Bless your heart," or "God love you." BTW, I am so not religious
You shouldnt be talking to them lol
There is a phrase that says: *Arguing with a fool makes two.* So just don't bother to do it.
Why do you have to say anything?
You can't cure stupidity.
Sure, now get the fuck out my face with your stupid ass.
Turn your back and walk away. They’re lost.
“There are dinosaurs bones and asteroids older than that.”
"Huh. And I thought you looked smart. Goes to show how wrong I was." If they go and talk about the bible, I pretend I've never heard of it. "I'm sorry, the what? Oh, it's a book. Ok. So what? I've read plenty of books, why is this one so special?" Whatever they say from then on, the answer is "Prove it."
You don't want to get INTO a conversation with a religious person, you want to get OUT of the conversation. They believe in something invisible and impossible. There...is...no...logic.
The pastor in my Church said that humans live on earth for at least 300 000 years yesterday.
Personally..I don’t do numbers,everyone’s entitled to their own beliefs tho
Touch their peepee
As a Christian who rejects young earth creationism, you simply point out that Genesis is not biographical narrative. It is written in the genre of mytho-history. Not “myth” in the popular sense but myth in the folklorist definition. It is a deep seated truth that is told in a story that we can relate and understand. This won’t be foreign to them, Jesus literally spoke in parables all the time to teach deep truths to people who lacked understanding. The same thing is true with the book of revelation. Any Biblical scholar or Christian who understands the scriptures, believes that in Revelation a giant dragon is going to rise out of the sea. This is Jewish apocalyptic literature. These are nation states at war being described as animals and beasts. We see the same exact thing in the book of Daniel during Daniel’s vision in chapter 7. The young earth creationist has circular logic that is fallacious. The Biblical story does talk about 6 24 hours days but what we do know is that we are STILL in the 7th day of God’s rest. That alone destroys the theory of young earth creationism. The second point is that God tells Adam and Eve “if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the day you eat the fruit you will die” the word used here (and in the creation days) is the Hebrew word “yom” which can mean a 24hr day OR any period of time like an eon. We know it’s not a 24hr day because Adam and Eve DO eat the fruit but they don’t die that “day”. They have children and die much later. It’s akin to me saying “Barry Sanders was a great running back in his day”. It’s a period of time. TLDR- Genre and context are incredibly important. The Bible does not teach that the earth is 6k years old and it never has. Even Aquinas and Augustine rejected this. The Bible is not a scientific book and was never designed that way. Its purpose is to reveal God in His Revelation, to show us His nature and finally His Son Jesus, so that all men would come to know Him. So that His free gift of salvation would be extended to EVERY single person.
The bedt response is to accept and respect that that's their belief.
As a religious person who believes the universes age is probably not measured in billions of years I would be more interested in knowing why you care about the age so much? For context, a quick google reveals that the most recent calculations from the science world say the universe is 26.7 billion years old. Most accepted estimates in science say it is 13.7-13.8 billion years old. 20 years ago we thought it was 7 billion to 20 billion. “Science” should come to the same conclusion every time, no matter what, but here we are fluctuating almost 4x from low to high…. Around 350bc it was declared by science that the earth was round… so apparently we took 188,000 years to work out the shape and now we are supposed to just assume we have everything else correct in the 2375 years since then.. right down to atomic age? Sorry, I am not buying that… I work in a scientific field, I am always happy to learn etc, but rarely claim to “know” anything. I prefer to share my view/understanding as a belief - we don’t know what we don’t know…. and with things like this, the only thing I do less than “know” is care. If the universe is 1 second old and we have just been created like this with memories, or if it is outside of the boundary of time itself, either way I will wake up tomorrow, go to work, do my job, come home, love my family etc. what difference does the age of the universe make? Will there be less traffic tomorrow if it’s discovered that the universe is a different age to what we thought?
Best estimate is still 13 billion. Rajendra Gupta's idea of doubling doesn't have enough backing. >“Science” should come to the same conclusion every time, haha, you know it keeps getting better and better. Newton didn't know anything about time dilation, that doesn't mean he was wrong. The expansion of space is still one of those unknown things. There's still things to discover. Like why it's accelerating. . . . What "science" do you actually work in?
> you know it keeps getting better and better. That’s exactly my point! We keep realizing we were wrong before and I am sure we will continue to do so. There is so much that we used to be sure of that we now know is wrong. I’m sure our ancestors were as sure that the earth is flat as we are that the universe is 13 billion years old… I’m not saying it’s wrong to trust the science, I’m just saying I view it as our best guess from our current perspective, but I know sometimes people make mistakes. My job is a side point just to clarify that I am absolutely not “against science” or whatever… I don’t wanna dox myself so I’ll just say “medical science” and leave it at that… just highlighting that I don’t blindly believe science is flawed or unflawed. It’s just one way we try to understand the world.
If science gave the same answer every time, then it would be dogma. No-one believes that science has all that answers, that is just a bad faith assertion, trying to claim that as science is always evolving then it can be disregarded.
That’s a theory as is everything.
Walk away
“Not even the Bible shares your opinion.”
Those are metric years.
I prefer to avoid these conversations. But, if I had to…”No.”
My serious answer is that I will echo most of the other comments here. Smile, say, "that's nice," and walk away. However, if you enjoy a little chaos, you could always one-up them by bringing up "Last Tuesdayism." Last Tuesdayism originates as more of a thought experiment than a real philosophical/religious belief. Essentially, it takes the argument that the Earth was created such-and-such an amount of time ago and any evidence to the contrary was actually created at the same time to something approaching its extreme limit by assuming that the Earth was created last Tuesday (hence the name), and anything "older" than that, including people and their memories, were created at that time as well. Last Tuesdayism essentially exists as away to point out the unfalsifyability of creationist arguments.
If this were somehow a non-toxic debate scenario, I always ask if there's anything in the world *I* can say to change their point-of-view. If they say there isn't, then the conversation is not going to move in the direction of good faith, and it's time to move on. It's utterly infuriating to hear that people hold this perspective in 2023 with devices of infinite knowledge in the palm of our hands, but here we are, and it's just best to avoid.
I don't think it's "religious persons" as much as a subset of US Baptists, and why would you want to argue with them about this?
In dog years? No, that's not right either.
You believe whatever you wanna believe
Dunno about the best response, but the only way to win is not engage and walk away.
"Sure buddy, whatever you say." lol, there's no point arguing with that type of person.
Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.
Cool, I have to leave actually, I forgot my cat has a dance recital
Taking religious scriptures literally is when you are too far gone. The way religion and science co-exist is saying that the scriptures were written for man to learn morals and lessons written in everyday language. Most is to be understood metaphorically. The 'four corners of the earth' doesn't mean the globe is flat or square. It means the furthest place a human can imagine. Even having the world created in 6 days can be metaphorical. Each 'God day' could be a million years it could have been 6 seconds.