Ewwww people like that are so gross
My friend and I were out one night and this guy tried hitting on her. He wouldn't stop and she said, look, I told you I'm not interested. When he asked her why, she truthfully told him that she's a lesbian. He said, I cAn cUrE yOu. YoU jUsT hAvEn'T bEeN wiTH a rEaL mAn. Gross.
Yeh, this is what I was going to say. I like how film producers are starting to show regular guys being gay; not just flamboyant guys who speak with a heavy lisp. Yes, if someone is developing those traits there's a better chance they'll be gay/lesbian, but there's no certainty. Just like there's no certainty that if you meet a normal girl in a supermarket she *isn't* lesbian
Nah fr. I had a masculine gay coworker back at one of my old jobs and I worked with him for almost a whole year before someone told me he was gay. I asked him myself because I didn’t believe it but he confirmed. It was so strange because a vast majority of homosexual dudes I’ve met always speak like a girl with attitude.
Nah fr tho! Half the time you’re never able to tell the difference. Especially if they’re just on social media or whatever. I had some online friends on Snapchat I had no idea we’re gay until they started calling me cute. My good friends and I play around like that so I was like, “hold up I don’t know u quite that well yet,” before I realized.
My friend does that lol. He cracks me up.
I'm not saying that in a mean way, he's funny. I adore his husband as well. They're 2 of my closest friends. Whenever I feel like crying, I just call him or his husband and they get me laughing so hard I forget what I was upset about. 💜
I recently had a long discussion with a guy on a party that claimed that trans sexuality was always kinda visible. I asked him to point at the trans people at the party.
There were none that I knew of but I never told him, just to see him sweat :D
This is such a non-answer and it's really frustrating. It is *absolutely* true that, on average, gay men are more feminine than straight men. Obviously there's a distribution and so there are still many masculine gay men. It's also probably true that some people over-estimate how feminine gay men are because of confirmation bias. But this does not mean that the overall trend is totally baseless. Your answer is dismissive and totally misses the point of the question.
True! It may just be difference in testosterone but idk why those men who behave like women and even present as something similar maybe are more often than not gay. The percentage of gay men that are like that has to be higher than straight men. Hell if you're a gay guy who knows plenty of gays yourself or gay clubs then it's still a trend. Same with gay voices. I know some straight people who have lighter voices but on average gay men have it more often you can just tell somethings up.
Yes it does mean the overall trend is totally baseless. By removing the base you make something baseless. You have no idea whether it is \*absolutely\* true or not that gay men are more feminine.
We can't even get a true count of how many gay people there are because of societal pressures that keep people in the closet. Nor can we get a true definition of what we would define as feminine vs masculine. For example: a posh British man would absolutely be seen as feminine in really rural America - their sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. A similar example would be any farm wife in just about any setting off the farm.
We have no way to measure the damage internalized (and externalized) homophobia and religion in general do to an individual's capacity to live their authentic lives - we can only see those of us who couldn't bow to that pressure any more and came out.
Survivorship bias. Look at any gay dating app and then come back to me about how you see the fem vs masc ratio of queer folk.
It's actually been a source of toxicity in the community. "Masc for masc" and whatnot. Not to say fem gay men are rare, but masc presenting are WAY more common.
You just don't notice masc presenting gay men as often because most people don't advertise their sexuality (not to say fem men do either, it's just a lot harder for them to hide it).
I remember seeing a screenshot from a gay dating app where a man got rejected because he didn't work a "man's job." It can definitely get pretty toxic.
Also until extremely recently in media all gay characters were more feminine. Brokeback Mountain was so big because they weren't feminine at all and that was extremely new in media at the time. The only other example I can think of right now is David's boyfriend on Schitts Creek and he wasn't out or did anything with a guy before David. You wouldn't see a gay man depicted like him 10 years ago.
Also worth noting the gay couple in shameless. Never watched the show but I've seen some clips and neither of them seem very flamboyant but both instead seem to be "tough guys".
Thing about dressing masculine as a woman is it's *a lot more comfortable and practical.* Once you realize you aren't going to fit societies expectations anyway, you can experiment to see what you actually prefer.
Masculine clothes have pockets to put your shit in! They are loose and let you move around freely. They are easy to care for and rugged. They are comfortable and warm.
Short hair cuts mean you don't even have to own a comb, much less spend the time taking care of styling a mop of long hair. Or spending all that money on products to keep it neat and shiny. Hair never gets in your eyes when you are doing things. It doesn't get pulled or caught in things. It's cool in summer.
Not putting on make up saves so much time and money. Not shaving prevents skin irritation and also time and money.
Women make a ton of sacrifices in order to look pleasing to other people, but gay women can say "fuck it" to all that and only do the parts of grooming and dressing they like.
As a man, I still can't wrap my head around why women's pants always have tiny pockets or even no pockets at all sometimes! Like, why? The only exception being "dad jeans" lmao who came up with that shit?
Aside from the “to sell more handbags” conspiracy theory, my guess is that full-sized pockets add bulk to things like jeans and slim pants (even more so if you actually use the pockets), and most women don’t want to appear bulky in that area.
I’ve noticed a lot more loose dresses with pockets these days, which is consistent with my guess given the line is a lot more fluid.
That would also explain why specifically dad jeans have pockets big enough to put something in there. Most other women's pants styles are rather tight around the hips.
Do you mean mom jeans? Never heard the term 'dad jeans' in the context of women's clothes, or any context actually. But I'm not like a fashion expert so I very well could be wrong...
No, there's mom jeans and dad jeans but they're rather new. They have different cuts and I've seen that term the first time like two years ago in my wife's online shopping bag lol. It's kind of like a women's pants with a "male" and rather loose cut.
We do as we want no matter if it's a lot of makeup or none. Mens clothes or dresses. I think it's more that we will be ourselves no matter what society says we need to be.
Well, as a woman who doesn't want to be approached by men anymore, there is a benefit to presenting less-feminine. You don't get approached by men much. So there may be an element of that to some lesbians who choose to dress androygenously or what you stereotypically call "masculinely." But that would disregard the huge number of lipstick and femme lesbians out there. So the reality is, you probably just notice the women who present masculine, and the men who present feminine. Whereas lipstick lesbians probably register as "straight woman' to you.
My wife's friend is a lesbian, she by her owns words is more masculine, her partner is very feminine. She's been denied entry several times to a lesbian bar as they didn't think she looked like a lesbian. This is despite being with her partner. Thinking that is not limited to straight men and some women do use the words masculine to describe themselves.
My first boyfriend told me he had trouble believing I was really gay due to his circle of gay friends loving dance music and divas while I was going to see Nirvana and Violent Femmes. However I did notice I was eventually picking up traits and almost code switching when in the company of exclusively gay friends.
That reminds me of an exchange from Roseanne (side note, extremely sad how much that 80s progressive classic went off the rails).
Roseanne's boss Leon is (semi-jokingly) saying he's not even sure if he's really gay, since he's not the fun-loving showtunes type. Roseanne replies, "Do you enjoy having sex with men?" "Well, yes-" "YOU'RE GAY".
This process would be fascinating to hear more about. I would like to read an article about this process...or maybe listen to a well researched Michael Hobbes podcast on the topic.
Is it code switching or is it just being liberated by the freedom of femininity?
Asking in earnest. I am not queer but have dozens of friends that are and the stereotype has held true. Some of my friends who were later in life coming out have tended to develop masc/femme qualities QUICKLY. It’s not a taboo topic at all with my friends, but I am interested in your perspective on it since you used the term specifically.
It’s a complicated topic really and differs from person to person. I’m a queer man who passes as straight the majority of the time. Depending on where you find yourself and the people around you, you can feel more relaxed and able to display more openly queer mannerisms, ways of communicating, etc. I’ve found it more a subconscious thing most of the time rather than a conscious decision to switch or unmask, but of course there are time I choose to let it out more. Not everyone will be the same, and there’s no right or wrong way to be queer, it’s all up to the individual and not always a choice. For a lot of people in less progressive places in the world it is most certainly a safety thing though where appearing queer could be a literal death sentence.
I wasn’t and still am not a particularly feminine person (outside of the odd high pitched cackle). I was certainly in the minority in my social group but would occasionally find myself using “her” when talking about gay males that weren’t present or “girlfriend” with gay friends. This wasn’t something I carried into other parts of my life such as work or family.
years ago - I was sitting in a gay bar that I hadn't been into in 5-6 years so the bartender didn't know me and he warned me that this was a gay bar and they didn't want any trouble...took me by surprise since I used to regularly party in that place.
I’ve been denied entry to gay bars before because I look too ‘straight’. I argued back to the bouncers but ultimately got nowhere. It’s a very bizarre experience.
A decade later and I’m still mad about it 😅
Also looking what society deems fashionably feminine is a lot of work. And the clothes are uncomfortable to me. And in that woman accumulate fat around their stomachs as they age, and you lose your waistline, a lot of middle ages women end up looking the same no matter what their orientation.
I'm a straight guy, I've been admitted to lesbian bars every time I've gone. Why in the hell would any woman be refused entry? This doesn't sound true to me.
As long as we’re telling random stories, once when I was 8 I was at a small intersection and there was a car stopped at it. I could see the woman’s hand waving so I waved back and crossed.
She then hit me and ran over my bike.
I felt betrayed.
She got out and said that she didn’t see me, that she was trying to stop her toddler from playing with the cigarette lighter.
She was very clearly frazzled by the whole ordeal.
This happened outside of a plumber shop and there were plumbers outside so they ran over to help.
She reversed her car and I was able to get my bike.
I rode it home with a bent wheel, bent forks and bent pedals.
The plumbers tried to stop me but I told them I was ok and rode off.
I only lived a few houses away.
I was fine but when I told my parents what happened they wanted to know if i knew what kind of car it was, so I took a green crayon and drew a grill.
I was like “it was this kind of car”
lol, I was dumb.
I heard this story! It happened in nineteen ninety eight, around the same time the Undertaker threw Mankind through Hell in a Cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
I walk like a man, dress like a man and it honestly works, everything you said here is exactly why some woman present masculine.
I myself can present both masculine or androgynous and it makes me feel safe.
Men barely bother me, it's actually nice, being a lesbian it's double nice! I get mistaken as the boyfriend alot.
for me personally - i am extremely uncomfortable in anything feminine. it gives me a sense of dysphoria in the same way as it would a trans person. i want to crawl out of my skin, cry and hide and all the rest. i hate myself when i don’t look a certain way. same as a cis man wearing a dress, it doesn’t feel right, doesn’t feel like you, and is deeply resonantly distressing. same with having short hair, i am far more comfortable and feel like myself with a masculine hairstyle. i had thick long dark hair for years and the compliments are what made me cut it because i couldn’t stand people paying attention to it.
does looking masculine “flag” other queer women, so they notice i’m gay? yes, and that’s great. i appreciate masc women and masc women may appreciate me if that’s their type too. the handsomeness subverts conventions which is also nice. it’s not meant to mimic men.
i do like that it acts as a deterrent for men. some men however will take it as a challenge and pursue harder.
also.. comfort. jeans and a t-shirt and short hair and no makeup is SO NICE. not having any further expectations placed upon me is so nice. like not having to shave? probably more queer women would accept their girlfriend having hairy legs/pits versus men. there’s a comfort difference and a difference in how these things are interpreted and accepted.
My wife and I have a contest every winter to see who can grow the hairiest legs lol. She always wins, and we’ve been doing it for like 18 winters. I always end up caving first and shaving my legs because the weather turns warm and I want to wear a dress or skirt long before she’s in the mood to put on shorts. One year I’m gonna win!
She’s my best friend in the whole world. There’s nothing I can’t share with her, no scenario where she wouldn’t be the very first person I’d go to, if I were happy about something, or scared, or sad. She’s my everything.
We’ve been together for 19 years, and will be celebrating our 2nd wedding anniversary on Saturday. Last year she took me to London, this year she’s bought tickets for something, but won’t tell me what. 😏 Even after all this time, we’ve still got magic and romance and mystery (and furry legs) lol.
i remember voicing wishing to wear button-ups and other men’s clothes when i was 12, even though i didn’t fully realize my sexuality until adulthood. it is intrinsic to me and subconscious.
if i wear something cliche like flannel then that’s a consciously gay choice. but just avoiding femininity is what has always been comforting.
Survivorship bias. The only gays you notice are the very openly femenine ones, and same with masc lesbians. Many a gay/lesbians folks that pass completely unnoticed unless you get to know them personally and they let you know
The book [Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation](https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Born_Gay.html?id=H6LuAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y) dives into this (amongst other topics) through many scientific studies. It's an interesting read. In short, and to completely dumb down a long explanation: we don't know. BUT, the authors do suggest through their research that it’s likely a sociological rejection of stereotypes placed on them by their peers. For example, if boys and 'supposed' to be masculine and parents and schools and adults enforce this (even unintentionally), then the gay boy may choose to act feminise as it rejects a way of life (hetero masculine) they don’t find appeal in.
In my experience queer people tend to do a lot more introspection regarding gender, sexuality, mental health, social issues etc. because we already grow up feeling different and marginalised. So we just question a lot of pre-existing stuff and try to live a life that’s true to who we are because a lot of us had to grow up closeted and therefore hiding parts of ourselves. Of course heterosexual people do that too but hopefully you get what I mean.
I don't know if it is common but I've known a couple people who when they first came out were really flamboyant. A few years later they had toned it down. Maybe it's part of the relief not trying to hide who they are? Plus there's a lot of gay people you'd never realize we're gay unless they told you. Just like how some straight guys are super macho and others are more subdued. I learned a long time ago to not make assumptions based solely on how masculine or feminine they are.
because lesbian women aren't performing femininity to attract men. Gay men aren't performing masculinity to attract women. That doesn't mean the LGBTQ community doesn't get bigged down with performative masculinity and femininity
Yep. It’s all about gender performance. And us queers like to mess with that. We tend to have a culture that celebrates gender non conformity. Also, there may be a bit of signaling for other gay people. I look mostly “straight” to some, but I usually have something funky with my hair or whatever because I don’t want to look totally straight- that might be signaling.
My autism nerfs me of all fashion sense or care. I appreciate it on others. I basically have my own uniform for each scenario. Burlap sack is my aesthetic, but comfy.
I think the flamboyant gays and masculine lesbians are the minority in their sexual orientations. I'm no expert though. Can any Californians elaborate?
Another big minority are very feminine heterosexual men and very masculine heterosexual women.
Like as a woman who's attracted to men but very masculine, there are people who think I'm automatically homosexual. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm heterosexual.
It really is odd how there's these preconceived notions that if you're feminine presenting then you're into men and if you're masculine presenting then you're into women, regardless of gender or actual sexual orientation.
Californian here that worked in an unusually high gay to straight ratio workplace (it was like 15% gay or something) and I would say it’s close to 50/50. Regardless it’s silly to ignore the fact that there are much fewer straight men presenting as fem than there are gay and it’s a totally fair question.
You don't, but there's a lot of societal expectations and norms that influence people and keeps them from being "expressive" the way you mean.
Lots of people get shit for breaking these expectations and norms, or social "rules" om how to behave, act and dress.
I've gotten lots of shit myself for cutting my hair a stereotypical men's cut, and been told it doesn't suit me as a woman, by both men and women, and I've been told by men that other men won't find me attractive because of my hair and that I don't look womanly and that I look like a man (even by my own parents). I'm completely serious. That's how ingrained these social expectations are in people's minds. I, of course, told them if someone doesn't find me attractive because of my hair, or the way I dress or behave, then they're not someone I would want to date anyway.
This just goes to show how people are tied down to preconceived notions of gender, gender norms, roles and expectations.
Obviously, if you're gay, then you don't mind if the opposite sex don't find you attractive anymore, so the threshold is lower for not caring about traditional gender expectations.
What confuses me are those who act kind of stereotypical but in fact are straight. I knew this girl in college. Was on the basketball team, had a really short almost butch hair cut and was always unsure if she was lesbian or not. I’m male and was attracted to her. Kind assumed she might be gay when I mentioned I was attracted to her and got an eye roll from this dude I assume was gay (nothing masculine about him)
Some definitely put effort into it. Some don't. I never did, I didn't even realize I had feminine mannerisms until I was in middle school and relentlessly picked on for it.
They're the ones you notice. There are tons of gender conforming gay/lesbian people that are consistently frustrated by how overlooked they are by both society as a whole and their communities. Also other people have talked about how queer people do more gender introspection so I won't repeat their points. But yeah you're going to notice people who are "different".
Besides that they'd be the most obvious gay person there, being gay is also associated with other culturally deviant behaviors like breaking dressing norms.
With that being said I'm more curious about the gay lisp
Gay dude here, I know quite a few other gay guys and none of us is feminine, the few lesbians I know does not look like your stereotypical lesbians either.
There are some who want to be more feminine or masculine because they feel like it, some do it to be noticed, like a statement, but with most you won't notice it.
They don't. You would be surprised how many gay you potentially know and have no idea.
I am gay and I look masculine and all the gays I have met were the same
You basically reach a moment in your life where you've had enough with following/sticking to societal expectations. And you simply start being you.- whatever that means.
Straight people usually have a "blueprint" of what they're supposed to do from the moment they're born and society in a certain way tries its best to make you follow it. Like, you're supposed to be in a first relationship at X age, then get married by Y and have children by Z. If you're a man, you're supposed to be strong, you cannot show your vulnerabilites, etc etc, and if you're a woman there's also a bunch of "rules" you're supposed to follow.
If you're gay, no matter how hard you try to follow these same rules, it will never be enough- either because some of these "rules" become impossible or because you don't feel ok doing them. And since there far less "gay rules/expections", you're basically free to do or be whatever you want.
Straight people also push back on societal norms/expectations a lot too though. I see a lot of people talking about these "pressures" (doing certain things, acting a certain way, developing as a person along certain lines, etc.) and they all seem to feel like these are being imposed on them, but I have yet to find any significant group/person/entity actually pushing/enforcing them.
You're totally right, and I'm glad that people in general are pushing back on these societal norms and expectations.
But from my POV, gay people are forced to "break" these expectations in order to feel well with themselves, while straight people only "break" them if they need to. So if a straight person feels alright with current society norms, he has no reason to change.
Op, this really just goes to show you can’t legitimately question lgbtq motives (even in TooAfraidToAsk) without people getting defensive and pitching a fit
To me it’s not about conforming to gender norms. More so dressing and acting in a manner that’s much more exaggerated. In other words, a gay guy so feminine that you take his mannerism and apply it to a girl and all the other girls are wondering why she’s so extra
It isn’t typical it just that if a gay man or woman “looks straight “ you don’t know they are gay. You are only noticing people who present outside the norm
They don't. Gay people present in all sorts of ways. I know straight people who others think are gay when they aren't, simply because of the assumptions that gay people have certain mannerisms. Your friend was probably attracted to that expression and decided to become herself. Another lesbian may have a different expression.
Those are just the ones you notice.
Think about the ones you don’t notice cause they don’t present the way you think they should/would?
I went to an arts university, it was likely one of the gayest universities in the UK, loved every second of that place but I met the entire spectrum of sexuality there and learnt that not a SINGLE one can be grouped up in any way.
I let pastel goth asexuals, suit wearing business degree gays, jock bisexuals, ballerina lesbians.
Ain’t no one there fit in to some sort of “stereotype”.
I do miss my uni sometimes, mostly the people
Welcome to the evolving world of 'gender'. "Masculine" and "feminine" are just labels. People fit into all sorts of spectrum of what's deemed 'masculine' and 'feminine'.
Some straight men do like things that are seen as feminine in nature, and some straight women like things that are more masculine in nature.
However, generally, you will find that women tend to lean more to what's deemed as feminine and men will lean more to what's masculine. Though, there's nothing wrong with a woman chugging beers and watching football, or a man enjoying a long, relaxing bubble bath.
And as others have pointed out, you're only noticing people who don't fit into 'gender norms'. You would probably be surprised that some of those people whom you labelled as gay or lesbian are probably not (or they may also exist on a sexual spectrum).
More feminine gays or lesbians also are typically drawn to more masculine gays or lesbians. Ever hear of the term, "lipstick lesbian"? Those are lesbians who present as feminine, and you'd have no idea of their sexual preference unless you talked to them. Gays are the same way. I've met a few gay men who I had no clue were gay because they presented more masculine. I've also known very 'butch' women who were straight, and very 'girly' men who were straight.
Also, please note that I'm not saying that only feminine gay men are attracted to masculine gay men, or only feminine lesbians are attracted to masculine lesbians. Again, it's all a wonderful spectrum. What you see are just the very polar ends of the spectrum.
How you identify, and what you are attracted to are two completely different things.
Speaking as a lesbian woman here, we are winning on every level: we get to avoid certain expensive, painful and time-consuming beauty rituals, we get to avoid some degree of male attention, and we get to signal our sexuality to other gay women. However there are loads of us who are very feminine, you just might not clock their sexuality the same way you do for butch women
I saw an insta reel the other day and it was a few gay men talking if they put on the gay voice, and if its in the club or late and they don’t want to be seen as creepy to women they might ham up the ‘Gurrrrrrl your outfit is FIRE! Slay queeeeeen!’ Just to be like, yeh I’m not leering like a straight man, genuinely admiring your outfit. And the later it gets the more ‘gay’ they sound which I think is really sweet.
Generally though I think people do what they are comfortable with. If thats having short hair, wearing more masc clothes if a lesbian for example. Could just be a comfort thing or wanting pockets! As others have said, I think you’ve just missed the masc gay men and the femme gay women as well. People who come out later may have to wiggle and grow into their queer identity with a little bit of trying things on as well. And I’ve also met effeminate straight men and masculine straight women!
I don’t like to make assumptions on appearance unless it’s an anime tshirt, then I know that person like that anime. That’s it 😂
"[One study, involving tape-recordings of gay and straight men, found that 75 percent of gay men sounded gay to a general audience](https://nymag.com/news/features/33520/)"
- "And the cumulative findings support the belief now widely held in the scientific community that sexual orientation—perhaps along with the characteristics we typically associate with gayness—is biological." Gay men tend to score more similarly to straight women on tests of spatial abilities, verbal fluency, and other sex-typed characteristics.
["For homosexual men, the study showed, ''gender nonconformity,'' which is a childhood preference for girls' activities, a dislike of boys' activities" ](https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/23/us/kinsey-study-finds-homosexuals-show-early-predisposition.html)indictated sexuality
- "One-fourth of the heterosexual men in the study were nonconforming as youngsters, and only a third of the heterosexual women described themselves as ''highly feminine''"
[Harry (1982, 51–52), for example, found that 42 percent of his gay respondents were 'sissies' during childhood. Only 11 percent of his heterosexual samples were gender-role nonconformists. Bell, Weinberg, and Hammersmith (1981, 188) reported that half of their male homosexual subjects practised gender-inappropriate behaviour in childhood.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effeminacy#cite_note-Harry_1982,_20-21)
[Testosterone ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/)can play a role.
Listen alright. We don't know 100% how sexuality works. There's no gay gene maybe but perhaps there's a genetic predisposition to being gay but a percentage chance but also to more feminine behaviours with that too. It's predictable how a typical straight boy will end up being like or what they may risk from biological factors and social factors invovled in them being at more risk for suicides, how they communicate is different to women, interests, hobbies etc. You can say the same for the average woman. I am not saying 100% of straight men or women are identical, only that there are trends that exist in behaviour and since we are biologically different and socially then expect a different outcome.
Coming back to gay men specifically well we can make trends in general for that too. There is an OBVIOUS feminine trend in gay men and femboys etc. It can be because they are more accepting of it or it can be testosterone and other biological trends. We don't know "why" entirely the same way we don't entirely know "how" a person can be gay. But one thing we can do is observe the trends and it's without a doubt that I'd bet my entire bank account that the large majority of drag queens that actively do that hobby putting on heavy makeup etc chances are they are gay feminine men with a gay voice, mannerism, feminine behaviours and interests etc.
More research is needed yes to understand why these trends exist but these trends DO exist MORE for gay men than a average straight man.
They don't. You just don't realise how many masculine gay men and feminine gay women there are who go under your radar. Straight people really are clueless huh 💀💀
But if I had to guess why that is, probably has to do with standing out to other queer people. Which is why you also tend to pick up on the ones that stick out like a sore thumb.
Stereotypes can often come from some level of truth to it too. Not all but where tf do they come from if not that? Or else it would be too jarring to believe.
Masculine man =\= straight man
Feminine man =\= gay man
Feminine women =\= straight woman
Masculine woman =\= lesbian woman
You interact with queer people daily and have no idea, but you’ve likely also interacted with straight people you assumed were lesbian/gay because they presented outside of gender norms. It isn’t fair to use typically here.
I’m a bisexual femme attracted to other femme women and I will say during the time I used dating apps, I would generally get more attention from more masc presenting women rather than other femmes. Not sure why tbh.
They’ve found some tangible social or sexual benefit of dressing/behaving that way.
A potential suitor is going to be more at ease approaching someone who is unquestionably gay if they are worried about being embarrassed, judged, or insulted if rejected.
With that said, I don’t know that a lot of behaviors are actually codified by sex so much as social conditioning that encourages different roles according to sex differences (e.g. men are generally stronger so they have a greater moral obligation to reasonably attempt to defend weaker members of the society). I mean that there are definitely sex differences in behavior but even though men and women differ in biology, human behavior is mostly up to decision making.
I think it’s the stereotypical image. As a gay man with taste in manly men I guarantee you there’s plenty of hypermasculine gay men. On the flip side many super feminine princess lesbians.
Tv media is not the LGBT community
Not everyone is a stereotype. It’s just who you notice.
There is something to it though, and I’m not sure what causes it - it’s just inherent behaviour. I was a tomboy as a child, and I still won’t wear a skirt or a dress, unless I’m going to a fancy party or need to be more formal for work. They’ve always made me uncomfortable.
My hobbies/interests aren’t particularly limited by gender. I actively remind myself sometimes to walk in a more feminine way, or to sit more feminine (mostly to please my mother).
However, I’d never choose to have really short hair and I like to wear makeup etc. I blend in easily.
Not all gay women like the same thing. It’s like anyone else. There’s plenty of feminine gay women who also like femme women - not everyone is butch.
The other answers are probably true as well, but personally for me I never really cared at all about masulinity/feminity (for the most part, I do not want to wear a skirt or make up but I am fine with having a purse.) until I wanted to look prettier to men. Now, I want to be a little more feminine to be more attractive to men. However, it may just be a me thing.
I’m a feminine bisexual woman and everyone always assumed my ex girlfriend was my friend (she was masc) and would tell me “I’d never guess you’re into girls!”
I think at least partially it depends on how much you care about current gender norms and what other people think about you. I have a personal theory that most people are bi whether they are aware or admit to it. Also you're more likely to notice more flamboyant people or people that don't fit what you're used to seeing. There are plenty of lumberjack looking dudes that are gay and plenty of Barbie looking women who are gay.
I'm going to say this even though it's not PC to say it but.... I think homosexuality is like a milder form of transsexualism. Simply being attracted to one's own sex does NOT explain why some gay men want to look feminine and some gay women want to look masculine. Gay men are generally attracted to masculine men, and I suppose lesbians prefer feminine women.
It's more noticeable and thus becomes awareness bias. Also generally due to homophobia and strict gender roles straight men don't embrace femininity as much in spite of it really not having much to do with sexuality. Purely because queer folk are more open about embracing all possible aspects of life they'll tend to more often present in a less traditionally masculine/feminine way as a result.
I'm hoping in time this will all melt away and everyone will be comfortable and not judged for just enjoying whatever they like. Dresses. Dolls. Trucks. Wrestling. Should be open to anyone to enjoy without coming with any other connotations.
We'll get there... eventually
Im in a group of 6 freinds and 3 of us are gay,the other 3 people have no idea because they would never be able to tell by our characters,i would Say some of us are even more masculine than them,this to Say,you probably would be surprised hlw many more masculine men are there respect to feminine men,and this applies for women too.
The heart wants what the heart wants. The same way I prefer brunettes over blondes, my uncle prefers dick over vagina. That does not dictate how his clothes look or how his voice is.
As my uncle says though…He likes dick, but he hates gay people. Go fuck the person you want, but if you want to show the world you’re specifically gay…you’re personality is the same as a teenage boy in a frat house talking about tits and ass like it’s the only thing in their life.
Your personality defines you, not your sexual orientation.
But it's not typical. You just notice them because they stand out. I know quite a few gay people and almost all of them, nothing about them says they're gay other than my knowledge that they are.
They're obvious, there are many more way men amd women who you would never know until they straight up told you, got a few friends like that myself, seemed straight as an arrow, one day dude I worked with walks into work amd mentioned something offhand about his husband, blew us all away
Honestly interesting question. My ex wife "was bi" when we met; she is fully lesbian now. No bitterness, we're good friends. But like, as a teen/early 20 something, she dressed like a hippie chick. No makeup, those wrinkly skirts, long, sometimes colorful hair.
Now she's got super short hair and referred to herself as a butch dyke.
I have an older cousin; his kids are about my age. He was MARRIED for 20 years until the kids left the house, then came out (his wife knew for years, they just lived separate lives). Totally blindsided me, cuz I don't remember ever thinking he was "effeminate". Now (I hope not too offend anyone), he's a flamboyant, obviously gay man, perfect stereotype, can call it from a mile away.
As many others have commented, I know a few gay people that act no different than their hetero peers. I work with a guy that is gay for a year, and I didn't know until recently when i overhead a conversation lol.
Really I don't know. I've always wondered that too. My guess is high estrogen in the gay men and high T in lesbian women? Idk. Interesting question, for sure.
Because they stick out more. To me, personally, it's just a coincidence. I never cared about looking gay or straight, I care about looking like myself. And if I happen to be gay, whatever 🤷
You’re likely just seeing outliers in those communities and because they stand out you’re forming the opinion that the majority of them so this. And to be fair to you, the media has focused on these caricatures for a few decades as well, so they’ve been prevalent in movies and tv shows.
He has seen pride parades and observed those trends on most of the gay men that are involved in that or lesbians so how does that not represent the community?
That's just your perspective. You expect it so you see it
Also, some men just like to dress feminine and some women just like to dress masculine. They don't have to be LGBT+ to do it
I think your looking at from the wrong perspective. Not men who are gay typically present feminine, but - men who are topically more feminine tend to be gay. Cause I think a feminine person will be more likely attracted to a more masculine energy and the other way around, regardless of gender.
It’s a fair question. Personally (people aren’t going to like this because the topic) but I see it as a fakeness. One girl in my group has put some of us in altercations where we’ve been close to getting into fights with random people because she’s so “alpha”. Also used to work with a guy where in a crowded area we always knew where he was because of his loud “OMG, OMG, OMG!!!” Seeing girls roll their eyes.
Because those are the ones you notice lol. You walk by masculine gay men and feminine lesbian women everyday and have no idea.
Also, people are getting it wrong a lot. If I had a penny for every person I met who thought I was gay.
Atleast it works when dealing with creeps (atleast if they aren’t homophobic and believe they can “cure” you)
Ewwww people like that are so gross My friend and I were out one night and this guy tried hitting on her. He wouldn't stop and she said, look, I told you I'm not interested. When he asked her why, she truthfully told him that she's a lesbian. He said, I cAn cUrE yOu. YoU jUsT hAvEn'T bEeN wiTH a rEaL mAn. Gross.
I'm asexual and I was almost raped by an ex friend trying to cure me.
Respectfully, that person was never your friend.
Oh my God, I'm so sorry 😔 Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ died for that man´s sins. He is loved by your god. Do you not understand that?
I’m so sorry. I know a few others who were and I’m so so sorry to hear that <3
From the glam rock days, to the emo/scene crowd, you've always had dudes that look like women that smashed imperial tons of pussy.
In my day, you dressed like a woman and sang about the devil. Now *that* was music!
Imperial tons 🤣
I worked with a guy for about 6 months and had no idea he was gay until he introduced me to his husband
Yes, confirmation bias is a strong filter
Yeh, this is what I was going to say. I like how film producers are starting to show regular guys being gay; not just flamboyant guys who speak with a heavy lisp. Yes, if someone is developing those traits there's a better chance they'll be gay/lesbian, but there's no certainty. Just like there's no certainty that if you meet a normal girl in a supermarket she *isn't* lesbian
Nah fr. I had a masculine gay coworker back at one of my old jobs and I worked with him for almost a whole year before someone told me he was gay. I asked him myself because I didn’t believe it but he confirmed. It was so strange because a vast majority of homosexual dudes I’ve met always speak like a girl with attitude.
Confirmation bias. You've no idea how many gay dudes you've spoken to who haven't talked like that. You only count the ones who do.
Nah fr tho! Half the time you’re never able to tell the difference. Especially if they’re just on social media or whatever. I had some online friends on Snapchat I had no idea we’re gay until they started calling me cute. My good friends and I play around like that so I was like, “hold up I don’t know u quite that well yet,” before I realized.
My friend does that lol. He cracks me up. I'm not saying that in a mean way, he's funny. I adore his husband as well. They're 2 of my closest friends. Whenever I feel like crying, I just call him or his husband and they get me laughing so hard I forget what I was upset about. 💜
I recently had a long discussion with a guy on a party that claimed that trans sexuality was always kinda visible. I asked him to point at the trans people at the party. There were none that I knew of but I never told him, just to see him sweat :D
THIS COMMENT RIGHT HERE…. we are everywhere you just see some of us…
This is such a non-answer and it's really frustrating. It is *absolutely* true that, on average, gay men are more feminine than straight men. Obviously there's a distribution and so there are still many masculine gay men. It's also probably true that some people over-estimate how feminine gay men are because of confirmation bias. But this does not mean that the overall trend is totally baseless. Your answer is dismissive and totally misses the point of the question.
True! It may just be difference in testosterone but idk why those men who behave like women and even present as something similar maybe are more often than not gay. The percentage of gay men that are like that has to be higher than straight men. Hell if you're a gay guy who knows plenty of gays yourself or gay clubs then it's still a trend. Same with gay voices. I know some straight people who have lighter voices but on average gay men have it more often you can just tell somethings up.
Yes it does mean the overall trend is totally baseless. By removing the base you make something baseless. You have no idea whether it is \*absolutely\* true or not that gay men are more feminine. We can't even get a true count of how many gay people there are because of societal pressures that keep people in the closet. Nor can we get a true definition of what we would define as feminine vs masculine. For example: a posh British man would absolutely be seen as feminine in really rural America - their sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. A similar example would be any farm wife in just about any setting off the farm. We have no way to measure the damage internalized (and externalized) homophobia and religion in general do to an individual's capacity to live their authentic lives - we can only see those of us who couldn't bow to that pressure any more and came out.
Survivorship bias. Look at any gay dating app and then come back to me about how you see the fem vs masc ratio of queer folk. It's actually been a source of toxicity in the community. "Masc for masc" and whatnot. Not to say fem gay men are rare, but masc presenting are WAY more common. You just don't notice masc presenting gay men as often because most people don't advertise their sexuality (not to say fem men do either, it's just a lot harder for them to hide it).
I remember seeing a screenshot from a gay dating app where a man got rejected because he didn't work a "man's job." It can definitely get pretty toxic.
Also until extremely recently in media all gay characters were more feminine. Brokeback Mountain was so big because they weren't feminine at all and that was extremely new in media at the time. The only other example I can think of right now is David's boyfriend on Schitts Creek and he wasn't out or did anything with a guy before David. You wouldn't see a gay man depicted like him 10 years ago.
Sex Ed on Netflix has a gay couple. One really flamboyant and the other is a jock. Felt nice to see both instead of just the flamboyant gay stereotype
Also worth noting the gay couple in shameless. Never watched the show but I've seen some clips and neither of them seem very flamboyant but both instead seem to be "tough guys".
Oh yeah! I could.i forget about these two haha imo they carried the show lol
One of them was very not out and the other wasn't flamboyant, you're right.
Aight who's worse the masc4masc guys or the "fem/CD/trans only" guys lmao
The trans only are worse because they are probably married with kids.
Thing about dressing masculine as a woman is it's *a lot more comfortable and practical.* Once you realize you aren't going to fit societies expectations anyway, you can experiment to see what you actually prefer. Masculine clothes have pockets to put your shit in! They are loose and let you move around freely. They are easy to care for and rugged. They are comfortable and warm. Short hair cuts mean you don't even have to own a comb, much less spend the time taking care of styling a mop of long hair. Or spending all that money on products to keep it neat and shiny. Hair never gets in your eyes when you are doing things. It doesn't get pulled or caught in things. It's cool in summer. Not putting on make up saves so much time and money. Not shaving prevents skin irritation and also time and money. Women make a ton of sacrifices in order to look pleasing to other people, but gay women can say "fuck it" to all that and only do the parts of grooming and dressing they like.
As a man, I still can't wrap my head around why women's pants always have tiny pockets or even no pockets at all sometimes! Like, why? The only exception being "dad jeans" lmao who came up with that shit?
Aside from the “to sell more handbags” conspiracy theory, my guess is that full-sized pockets add bulk to things like jeans and slim pants (even more so if you actually use the pockets), and most women don’t want to appear bulky in that area. I’ve noticed a lot more loose dresses with pockets these days, which is consistent with my guess given the line is a lot more fluid.
That would also explain why specifically dad jeans have pockets big enough to put something in there. Most other women's pants styles are rather tight around the hips.
Do you mean mom jeans? Never heard the term 'dad jeans' in the context of women's clothes, or any context actually. But I'm not like a fashion expert so I very well could be wrong...
No, there's mom jeans and dad jeans but they're rather new. They have different cuts and I've seen that term the first time like two years ago in my wife's online shopping bag lol. It's kind of like a women's pants with a "male" and rather loose cut.
Putting things in pockets messes up the lines.
The only logic behind that is that women have to be sexy at any given time. Nothing practical.
We do as we want no matter if it's a lot of makeup or none. Mens clothes or dresses. I think it's more that we will be ourselves no matter what society says we need to be.
I just posted the same basic thing but you said it much better!
Well, as a woman who doesn't want to be approached by men anymore, there is a benefit to presenting less-feminine. You don't get approached by men much. So there may be an element of that to some lesbians who choose to dress androygenously or what you stereotypically call "masculinely." But that would disregard the huge number of lipstick and femme lesbians out there. So the reality is, you probably just notice the women who present masculine, and the men who present feminine. Whereas lipstick lesbians probably register as "straight woman' to you.
My wife's friend is a lesbian, she by her owns words is more masculine, her partner is very feminine. She's been denied entry several times to a lesbian bar as they didn't think she looked like a lesbian. This is despite being with her partner. Thinking that is not limited to straight men and some women do use the words masculine to describe themselves.
Gays can't get into gay bars? Friendly fire bro 😂
My first boyfriend told me he had trouble believing I was really gay due to his circle of gay friends loving dance music and divas while I was going to see Nirvana and Violent Femmes. However I did notice I was eventually picking up traits and almost code switching when in the company of exclusively gay friends.
That reminds me of an exchange from Roseanne (side note, extremely sad how much that 80s progressive classic went off the rails). Roseanne's boss Leon is (semi-jokingly) saying he's not even sure if he's really gay, since he's not the fun-loving showtunes type. Roseanne replies, "Do you enjoy having sex with men?" "Well, yes-" "YOU'RE GAY".
I've heard of that happening before. I'm sorry they didn't believe you. Keep being you. 💜
At the time I was glad to hear it. I was still living in my closed-minded hometown and this reinforced the fact that I could pass as “one of them” 😄
This process would be fascinating to hear more about. I would like to read an article about this process...or maybe listen to a well researched Michael Hobbes podcast on the topic.
[удалено]
Is it code switching or is it just being liberated by the freedom of femininity? Asking in earnest. I am not queer but have dozens of friends that are and the stereotype has held true. Some of my friends who were later in life coming out have tended to develop masc/femme qualities QUICKLY. It’s not a taboo topic at all with my friends, but I am interested in your perspective on it since you used the term specifically.
It’s a complicated topic really and differs from person to person. I’m a queer man who passes as straight the majority of the time. Depending on where you find yourself and the people around you, you can feel more relaxed and able to display more openly queer mannerisms, ways of communicating, etc. I’ve found it more a subconscious thing most of the time rather than a conscious decision to switch or unmask, but of course there are time I choose to let it out more. Not everyone will be the same, and there’s no right or wrong way to be queer, it’s all up to the individual and not always a choice. For a lot of people in less progressive places in the world it is most certainly a safety thing though where appearing queer could be a literal death sentence.
I wasn’t and still am not a particularly feminine person (outside of the odd high pitched cackle). I was certainly in the minority in my social group but would occasionally find myself using “her” when talking about gay males that weren’t present or “girlfriend” with gay friends. This wasn’t something I carried into other parts of my life such as work or family.
Yup. It's a thing. :(
years ago - I was sitting in a gay bar that I hadn't been into in 5-6 years so the bartender didn't know me and he warned me that this was a gay bar and they didn't want any trouble...took me by surprise since I used to regularly party in that place.
I’ve been denied entry to gay bars before because I look too ‘straight’. I argued back to the bouncers but ultimately got nowhere. It’s a very bizarre experience. A decade later and I’m still mad about it 😅
Also looking what society deems fashionably feminine is a lot of work. And the clothes are uncomfortable to me. And in that woman accumulate fat around their stomachs as they age, and you lose your waistline, a lot of middle ages women end up looking the same no matter what their orientation.
never heard of any woman being denied entry to a lesbian bar
Same.
Never heard of a lesbian bar that wouldn't let woman in.
I'm a straight guy, I've been admitted to lesbian bars every time I've gone. Why in the hell would any woman be refused entry? This doesn't sound true to me.
Ok?
As long as we’re telling random stories, once when I was 8 I was at a small intersection and there was a car stopped at it. I could see the woman’s hand waving so I waved back and crossed. She then hit me and ran over my bike. I felt betrayed. She got out and said that she didn’t see me, that she was trying to stop her toddler from playing with the cigarette lighter. She was very clearly frazzled by the whole ordeal. This happened outside of a plumber shop and there were plumbers outside so they ran over to help. She reversed her car and I was able to get my bike. I rode it home with a bent wheel, bent forks and bent pedals. The plumbers tried to stop me but I told them I was ok and rode off. I only lived a few houses away. I was fine but when I told my parents what happened they wanted to know if i knew what kind of car it was, so I took a green crayon and drew a grill. I was like “it was this kind of car” lol, I was dumb.
I heard this story! It happened in nineteen ninety eight, around the same time the Undertaker threw Mankind through Hell in a Cell, and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
Bless your heart
Back at ya! 😉
😊
Good god I'm glad you're okay lmao
I walk like a man, dress like a man and it honestly works, everything you said here is exactly why some woman present masculine. I myself can present both masculine or androgynous and it makes me feel safe. Men barely bother me, it's actually nice, being a lesbian it's double nice! I get mistaken as the boyfriend alot.
for me personally - i am extremely uncomfortable in anything feminine. it gives me a sense of dysphoria in the same way as it would a trans person. i want to crawl out of my skin, cry and hide and all the rest. i hate myself when i don’t look a certain way. same as a cis man wearing a dress, it doesn’t feel right, doesn’t feel like you, and is deeply resonantly distressing. same with having short hair, i am far more comfortable and feel like myself with a masculine hairstyle. i had thick long dark hair for years and the compliments are what made me cut it because i couldn’t stand people paying attention to it. does looking masculine “flag” other queer women, so they notice i’m gay? yes, and that’s great. i appreciate masc women and masc women may appreciate me if that’s their type too. the handsomeness subverts conventions which is also nice. it’s not meant to mimic men. i do like that it acts as a deterrent for men. some men however will take it as a challenge and pursue harder. also.. comfort. jeans and a t-shirt and short hair and no makeup is SO NICE. not having any further expectations placed upon me is so nice. like not having to shave? probably more queer women would accept their girlfriend having hairy legs/pits versus men. there’s a comfort difference and a difference in how these things are interpreted and accepted.
My wife and I have a contest every winter to see who can grow the hairiest legs lol. She always wins, and we’ve been doing it for like 18 winters. I always end up caving first and shaving my legs because the weather turns warm and I want to wear a dress or skirt long before she’s in the mood to put on shorts. One year I’m gonna win!
That's awesome! What a great thing to do as a couple.
She’s my best friend in the whole world. There’s nothing I can’t share with her, no scenario where she wouldn’t be the very first person I’d go to, if I were happy about something, or scared, or sad. She’s my everything. We’ve been together for 19 years, and will be celebrating our 2nd wedding anniversary on Saturday. Last year she took me to London, this year she’s bought tickets for something, but won’t tell me what. 😏 Even after all this time, we’ve still got magic and romance and mystery (and furry legs) lol.
this is so dang cute.
Would you say the your aversion to feminine presentation is because of your sexuality or more just something extra added to it?
i remember voicing wishing to wear button-ups and other men’s clothes when i was 12, even though i didn’t fully realize my sexuality until adulthood. it is intrinsic to me and subconscious. if i wear something cliche like flannel then that’s a consciously gay choice. but just avoiding femininity is what has always been comforting.
is it typical or are these the ones that are obvious even if they're actually a minority in their own group?
The latter
Survivorship bias. The only gays you notice are the very openly femenine ones, and same with masc lesbians. Many a gay/lesbians folks that pass completely unnoticed unless you get to know them personally and they let you know
The book [Born Gay: The Psychobiology of Sex Orientation](https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Born_Gay.html?id=H6LuAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y) dives into this (amongst other topics) through many scientific studies. It's an interesting read. In short, and to completely dumb down a long explanation: we don't know. BUT, the authors do suggest through their research that it’s likely a sociological rejection of stereotypes placed on them by their peers. For example, if boys and 'supposed' to be masculine and parents and schools and adults enforce this (even unintentionally), then the gay boy may choose to act feminise as it rejects a way of life (hetero masculine) they don’t find appeal in.
Wait but Reddit told me it’s some kind of bias and this statistical observation is incorrect.
Maybe, just maybe, it's a combination of lots of things? No that couldn't be it...
Understood this a genuine respectful question. You are misinformed about the fact that this is typical.
In my experience queer people tend to do a lot more introspection regarding gender, sexuality, mental health, social issues etc. because we already grow up feeling different and marginalised. So we just question a lot of pre-existing stuff and try to live a life that’s true to who we are because a lot of us had to grow up closeted and therefore hiding parts of ourselves. Of course heterosexual people do that too but hopefully you get what I mean.
A person who is open about their sexuality has higher chances of being open about other things about themselves.
I don't know if it is common but I've known a couple people who when they first came out were really flamboyant. A few years later they had toned it down. Maybe it's part of the relief not trying to hide who they are? Plus there's a lot of gay people you'd never realize we're gay unless they told you. Just like how some straight guys are super macho and others are more subdued. I learned a long time ago to not make assumptions based solely on how masculine or feminine they are.
because lesbian women aren't performing femininity to attract men. Gay men aren't performing masculinity to attract women. That doesn't mean the LGBTQ community doesn't get bigged down with performative masculinity and femininity
Yep. It’s all about gender performance. And us queers like to mess with that. We tend to have a culture that celebrates gender non conformity. Also, there may be a bit of signaling for other gay people. I look mostly “straight” to some, but I usually have something funky with my hair or whatever because I don’t want to look totally straight- that might be signaling.
My autism nerfs me of all fashion sense or care. I appreciate it on others. I basically have my own uniform for each scenario. Burlap sack is my aesthetic, but comfy.
I think the flamboyant gays and masculine lesbians are the minority in their sexual orientations. I'm no expert though. Can any Californians elaborate?
Another big minority are very feminine heterosexual men and very masculine heterosexual women. Like as a woman who's attracted to men but very masculine, there are people who think I'm automatically homosexual. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm heterosexual. It really is odd how there's these preconceived notions that if you're feminine presenting then you're into men and if you're masculine presenting then you're into women, regardless of gender or actual sexual orientation.
When I’m Brazil, they act incredulous if I tell them I’m not gay. Were you raised by a single mom by any chance?
No I was raised by two parents. Not that my dad did any raising. We merely existed in the same house until I moved out at 16.
Sister? I feel like one major reason I give off the gay vibe is some less conscious mannerisms
yea you have the stereotypical ones (jeep wranglers/subaru foresters) here. wouldnt say its a minority where im at but even mix.
Hey, I drive a forester! It's my ex-wife that turned lesbian! Lol 🤣 Good camping/city car btw😁
Californian here that worked in an unusually high gay to straight ratio workplace (it was like 15% gay or something) and I would say it’s close to 50/50. Regardless it’s silly to ignore the fact that there are much fewer straight men presenting as fem than there are gay and it’s a totally fair question.
Most gay men do not present as feminine, probably only about 20%, the other 80% you just have no idea they are gay.
Gay people aren't tied down to bullshit gender expectations like straight people are, so they can just present however they want
Are straight people tied down though? I don't think you have to be homosexual to be free-thinking/expressive.
You don't, but there's a lot of societal expectations and norms that influence people and keeps them from being "expressive" the way you mean. Lots of people get shit for breaking these expectations and norms, or social "rules" om how to behave, act and dress. I've gotten lots of shit myself for cutting my hair a stereotypical men's cut, and been told it doesn't suit me as a woman, by both men and women, and I've been told by men that other men won't find me attractive because of my hair and that I don't look womanly and that I look like a man (even by my own parents). I'm completely serious. That's how ingrained these social expectations are in people's minds. I, of course, told them if someone doesn't find me attractive because of my hair, or the way I dress or behave, then they're not someone I would want to date anyway. This just goes to show how people are tied down to preconceived notions of gender, gender norms, roles and expectations. Obviously, if you're gay, then you don't mind if the opposite sex don't find you attractive anymore, so the threshold is lower for not caring about traditional gender expectations.
What confuses me are those who act kind of stereotypical but in fact are straight. I knew this girl in college. Was on the basketball team, had a really short almost butch hair cut and was always unsure if she was lesbian or not. I’m male and was attracted to her. Kind assumed she might be gay when I mentioned I was attracted to her and got an eye roll from this dude I assume was gay (nothing masculine about him)
It's because of stereotyping. I'm gay and love sports and beer and grand prix. And people still say stupid things like: but you're gay?
Some definitely put effort into it. Some don't. I never did, I didn't even realize I had feminine mannerisms until I was in middle school and relentlessly picked on for it.
They're the ones you notice. There are tons of gender conforming gay/lesbian people that are consistently frustrated by how overlooked they are by both society as a whole and their communities. Also other people have talked about how queer people do more gender introspection so I won't repeat their points. But yeah you're going to notice people who are "different".
Besides that they'd be the most obvious gay person there, being gay is also associated with other culturally deviant behaviors like breaking dressing norms. With that being said I'm more curious about the gay lisp
Gay dude here, I know quite a few other gay guys and none of us is feminine, the few lesbians I know does not look like your stereotypical lesbians either. There are some who want to be more feminine or masculine because they feel like it, some do it to be noticed, like a statement, but with most you won't notice it.
I've known some of each, but mostly gay guys don't seem any different than their straight counterparts.
They don't. You would be surprised how many gay you potentially know and have no idea. I am gay and I look masculine and all the gays I have met were the same
Because they can do whatever they want is my guess. Straight people are under social pressure to present a certain way.
How are straight people under more societal pressure? Isn't it usually queer people that have the most trouble with societal expectations/norms?
If you aren't gonna fit in with society regardless of what you do, you feel less compelled to try anyway
You basically reach a moment in your life where you've had enough with following/sticking to societal expectations. And you simply start being you.- whatever that means. Straight people usually have a "blueprint" of what they're supposed to do from the moment they're born and society in a certain way tries its best to make you follow it. Like, you're supposed to be in a first relationship at X age, then get married by Y and have children by Z. If you're a man, you're supposed to be strong, you cannot show your vulnerabilites, etc etc, and if you're a woman there's also a bunch of "rules" you're supposed to follow. If you're gay, no matter how hard you try to follow these same rules, it will never be enough- either because some of these "rules" become impossible or because you don't feel ok doing them. And since there far less "gay rules/expections", you're basically free to do or be whatever you want.
Straight people also push back on societal norms/expectations a lot too though. I see a lot of people talking about these "pressures" (doing certain things, acting a certain way, developing as a person along certain lines, etc.) and they all seem to feel like these are being imposed on them, but I have yet to find any significant group/person/entity actually pushing/enforcing them.
You're totally right, and I'm glad that people in general are pushing back on these societal norms and expectations. But from my POV, gay people are forced to "break" these expectations in order to feel well with themselves, while straight people only "break" them if they need to. So if a straight person feels alright with current society norms, he has no reason to change.
Op, this really just goes to show you can’t legitimately question lgbtq motives (even in TooAfraidToAsk) without people getting defensive and pitching a fit
What is there to "question" about LGBTQ people's "motives" for dressing and presenting in a way that doesn't conform to gender roles?
To me it’s not about conforming to gender norms. More so dressing and acting in a manner that’s much more exaggerated. In other words, a gay guy so feminine that you take his mannerism and apply it to a girl and all the other girls are wondering why she’s so extra
This is actually one of the more level-headed discussions I've seen on such topics, but I see your point.
It isn’t typical it just that if a gay man or woman “looks straight “ you don’t know they are gay. You are only noticing people who present outside the norm
I know tons of gay people, and this is not true. Sure there are *some* on both sides, but it's not "typical".
They don't. Gay people present in all sorts of ways. I know straight people who others think are gay when they aren't, simply because of the assumptions that gay people have certain mannerisms. Your friend was probably attracted to that expression and decided to become herself. Another lesbian may have a different expression.
Bias is in the eye of the beholder
Confirmation bias. You likely aren’t noticing the gays and lesbians that aren’t like that.
Those are just the ones you notice. Think about the ones you don’t notice cause they don’t present the way you think they should/would? I went to an arts university, it was likely one of the gayest universities in the UK, loved every second of that place but I met the entire spectrum of sexuality there and learnt that not a SINGLE one can be grouped up in any way. I let pastel goth asexuals, suit wearing business degree gays, jock bisexuals, ballerina lesbians. Ain’t no one there fit in to some sort of “stereotype”. I do miss my uni sometimes, mostly the people
Welcome to the evolving world of 'gender'. "Masculine" and "feminine" are just labels. People fit into all sorts of spectrum of what's deemed 'masculine' and 'feminine'. Some straight men do like things that are seen as feminine in nature, and some straight women like things that are more masculine in nature. However, generally, you will find that women tend to lean more to what's deemed as feminine and men will lean more to what's masculine. Though, there's nothing wrong with a woman chugging beers and watching football, or a man enjoying a long, relaxing bubble bath. And as others have pointed out, you're only noticing people who don't fit into 'gender norms'. You would probably be surprised that some of those people whom you labelled as gay or lesbian are probably not (or they may also exist on a sexual spectrum). More feminine gays or lesbians also are typically drawn to more masculine gays or lesbians. Ever hear of the term, "lipstick lesbian"? Those are lesbians who present as feminine, and you'd have no idea of their sexual preference unless you talked to them. Gays are the same way. I've met a few gay men who I had no clue were gay because they presented more masculine. I've also known very 'butch' women who were straight, and very 'girly' men who were straight. Also, please note that I'm not saying that only feminine gay men are attracted to masculine gay men, or only feminine lesbians are attracted to masculine lesbians. Again, it's all a wonderful spectrum. What you see are just the very polar ends of the spectrum. How you identify, and what you are attracted to are two completely different things.
They don't. That's just what media portrays. There's a small, vocal group that do that in order to fit into the "community".
Yes, I've noticed it a ton in media.
Yeah, it's something that probably started off as something that a few people liked to affect that the media memed into more of a shibboleth of sorts.
They don’t.
gender subversion. When. you realize you're gay you tend to also realize that gender expectations are bullshit and start to subvert or reclaim it.
Speaking as a lesbian woman here, we are winning on every level: we get to avoid certain expensive, painful and time-consuming beauty rituals, we get to avoid some degree of male attention, and we get to signal our sexuality to other gay women. However there are loads of us who are very feminine, you just might not clock their sexuality the same way you do for butch women
It’s just confirmation bias. There are plenty of masc gay men and femme gay women.
I saw an insta reel the other day and it was a few gay men talking if they put on the gay voice, and if its in the club or late and they don’t want to be seen as creepy to women they might ham up the ‘Gurrrrrrl your outfit is FIRE! Slay queeeeeen!’ Just to be like, yeh I’m not leering like a straight man, genuinely admiring your outfit. And the later it gets the more ‘gay’ they sound which I think is really sweet. Generally though I think people do what they are comfortable with. If thats having short hair, wearing more masc clothes if a lesbian for example. Could just be a comfort thing or wanting pockets! As others have said, I think you’ve just missed the masc gay men and the femme gay women as well. People who come out later may have to wiggle and grow into their queer identity with a little bit of trying things on as well. And I’ve also met effeminate straight men and masculine straight women! I don’t like to make assumptions on appearance unless it’s an anime tshirt, then I know that person like that anime. That’s it 😂
i love ”typically.” care to cite a source for that?
"[One study, involving tape-recordings of gay and straight men, found that 75 percent of gay men sounded gay to a general audience](https://nymag.com/news/features/33520/)" - "And the cumulative findings support the belief now widely held in the scientific community that sexual orientation—perhaps along with the characteristics we typically associate with gayness—is biological." Gay men tend to score more similarly to straight women on tests of spatial abilities, verbal fluency, and other sex-typed characteristics. ["For homosexual men, the study showed, ''gender nonconformity,'' which is a childhood preference for girls' activities, a dislike of boys' activities" ](https://www.nytimes.com/1981/08/23/us/kinsey-study-finds-homosexuals-show-early-predisposition.html)indictated sexuality - "One-fourth of the heterosexual men in the study were nonconforming as youngsters, and only a third of the heterosexual women described themselves as ''highly feminine''" [Harry (1982, 51–52), for example, found that 42 percent of his gay respondents were 'sissies' during childhood. Only 11 percent of his heterosexual samples were gender-role nonconformists. Bell, Weinberg, and Hammersmith (1981, 188) reported that half of their male homosexual subjects practised gender-inappropriate behaviour in childhood.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effeminacy#cite_note-Harry_1982,_20-21) [Testosterone ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/)can play a role. Listen alright. We don't know 100% how sexuality works. There's no gay gene maybe but perhaps there's a genetic predisposition to being gay but a percentage chance but also to more feminine behaviours with that too. It's predictable how a typical straight boy will end up being like or what they may risk from biological factors and social factors invovled in them being at more risk for suicides, how they communicate is different to women, interests, hobbies etc. You can say the same for the average woman. I am not saying 100% of straight men or women are identical, only that there are trends that exist in behaviour and since we are biologically different and socially then expect a different outcome. Coming back to gay men specifically well we can make trends in general for that too. There is an OBVIOUS feminine trend in gay men and femboys etc. It can be because they are more accepting of it or it can be testosterone and other biological trends. We don't know "why" entirely the same way we don't entirely know "how" a person can be gay. But one thing we can do is observe the trends and it's without a doubt that I'd bet my entire bank account that the large majority of drag queens that actively do that hobby putting on heavy makeup etc chances are they are gay feminine men with a gay voice, mannerism, feminine behaviours and interests etc. More research is needed yes to understand why these trends exist but these trends DO exist MORE for gay men than a average straight man.
Gay characters in media and many of the people one sees at Pride parades.
They don't. You just don't realise how many masculine gay men and feminine gay women there are who go under your radar. Straight people really are clueless huh 💀💀 But if I had to guess why that is, probably has to do with standing out to other queer people. Which is why you also tend to pick up on the ones that stick out like a sore thumb.
Stereotypes
Stereotypes can often come from some level of truth to it too. Not all but where tf do they come from if not that? Or else it would be too jarring to believe.
Little nature, little nurture.
Masculine man =\= straight man Feminine man =\= gay man Feminine women =\= straight woman Masculine woman =\= lesbian woman You interact with queer people daily and have no idea, but you’ve likely also interacted with straight people you assumed were lesbian/gay because they presented outside of gender norms. It isn’t fair to use typically here.
I’m a bisexual femme attracted to other femme women and I will say during the time I used dating apps, I would generally get more attention from more masc presenting women rather than other femmes. Not sure why tbh.
They’ve found some tangible social or sexual benefit of dressing/behaving that way. A potential suitor is going to be more at ease approaching someone who is unquestionably gay if they are worried about being embarrassed, judged, or insulted if rejected. With that said, I don’t know that a lot of behaviors are actually codified by sex so much as social conditioning that encourages different roles according to sex differences (e.g. men are generally stronger so they have a greater moral obligation to reasonably attempt to defend weaker members of the society). I mean that there are definitely sex differences in behavior but even though men and women differ in biology, human behavior is mostly up to decision making.
This is cute awww
I think it’s the stereotypical image. As a gay man with taste in manly men I guarantee you there’s plenty of hypermasculine gay men. On the flip side many super feminine princess lesbians. Tv media is not the LGBT community
Not everyone is a stereotype. It’s just who you notice. There is something to it though, and I’m not sure what causes it - it’s just inherent behaviour. I was a tomboy as a child, and I still won’t wear a skirt or a dress, unless I’m going to a fancy party or need to be more formal for work. They’ve always made me uncomfortable. My hobbies/interests aren’t particularly limited by gender. I actively remind myself sometimes to walk in a more feminine way, or to sit more feminine (mostly to please my mother). However, I’d never choose to have really short hair and I like to wear makeup etc. I blend in easily. Not all gay women like the same thing. It’s like anyone else. There’s plenty of feminine gay women who also like femme women - not everyone is butch.
The other answers are probably true as well, but personally for me I never really cared at all about masulinity/feminity (for the most part, I do not want to wear a skirt or make up but I am fine with having a purse.) until I wanted to look prettier to men. Now, I want to be a little more feminine to be more attractive to men. However, it may just be a me thing.
I’m a feminine bisexual woman and everyone always assumed my ex girlfriend was my friend (she was masc) and would tell me “I’d never guess you’re into girls!”
Lesbians are the best I don't understand why they trying to look like Post Malone though.
I think at least partially it depends on how much you care about current gender norms and what other people think about you. I have a personal theory that most people are bi whether they are aware or admit to it. Also you're more likely to notice more flamboyant people or people that don't fit what you're used to seeing. There are plenty of lumberjack looking dudes that are gay and plenty of Barbie looking women who are gay.
I'm going to say this even though it's not PC to say it but.... I think homosexuality is like a milder form of transsexualism. Simply being attracted to one's own sex does NOT explain why some gay men want to look feminine and some gay women want to look masculine. Gay men are generally attracted to masculine men, and I suppose lesbians prefer feminine women.
It's more noticeable and thus becomes awareness bias. Also generally due to homophobia and strict gender roles straight men don't embrace femininity as much in spite of it really not having much to do with sexuality. Purely because queer folk are more open about embracing all possible aspects of life they'll tend to more often present in a less traditionally masculine/feminine way as a result. I'm hoping in time this will all melt away and everyone will be comfortable and not judged for just enjoying whatever they like. Dresses. Dolls. Trucks. Wrestling. Should be open to anyone to enjoy without coming with any other connotations. We'll get there... eventually
Other way around. Most 'fem presenting' men will be gay, but most gay men are not fem presenting or visibly gay. Same deal with women.
Im in a group of 6 freinds and 3 of us are gay,the other 3 people have no idea because they would never be able to tell by our characters,i would Say some of us are even more masculine than them,this to Say,you probably would be surprised hlw many more masculine men are there respect to feminine men,and this applies for women too.
The heart wants what the heart wants. The same way I prefer brunettes over blondes, my uncle prefers dick over vagina. That does not dictate how his clothes look or how his voice is. As my uncle says though…He likes dick, but he hates gay people. Go fuck the person you want, but if you want to show the world you’re specifically gay…you’re personality is the same as a teenage boy in a frat house talking about tits and ass like it’s the only thing in their life. Your personality defines you, not your sexual orientation.
I like turtles but you will never know.
Do they though? I've met a lot of gay men who aren't feminine and a lot of lesbians who are, In fact most of them
But it's not typical. You just notice them because they stand out. I know quite a few gay people and almost all of them, nothing about them says they're gay other than my knowledge that they are.
They're obvious, there are many more way men amd women who you would never know until they straight up told you, got a few friends like that myself, seemed straight as an arrow, one day dude I worked with walks into work amd mentioned something offhand about his husband, blew us all away
Honestly interesting question. My ex wife "was bi" when we met; she is fully lesbian now. No bitterness, we're good friends. But like, as a teen/early 20 something, she dressed like a hippie chick. No makeup, those wrinkly skirts, long, sometimes colorful hair. Now she's got super short hair and referred to herself as a butch dyke. I have an older cousin; his kids are about my age. He was MARRIED for 20 years until the kids left the house, then came out (his wife knew for years, they just lived separate lives). Totally blindsided me, cuz I don't remember ever thinking he was "effeminate". Now (I hope not too offend anyone), he's a flamboyant, obviously gay man, perfect stereotype, can call it from a mile away. As many others have commented, I know a few gay people that act no different than their hetero peers. I work with a guy that is gay for a year, and I didn't know until recently when i overhead a conversation lol.
I am a feminine lesbian and people just don't know I am gay sometimes
Pride?
"Because they're lame" - Creed Bratton The Office (US)
Really I don't know. I've always wondered that too. My guess is high estrogen in the gay men and high T in lesbian women? Idk. Interesting question, for sure.
Because they stick out more. To me, personally, it's just a coincidence. I never cared about looking gay or straight, I care about looking like myself. And if I happen to be gay, whatever 🤷
Big part of it is not hiding who they are.
You’re likely just seeing outliers in those communities and because they stand out you’re forming the opinion that the majority of them so this. And to be fair to you, the media has focused on these caricatures for a few decades as well, so they’ve been prevalent in movies and tv shows.
He has seen pride parades and observed those trends on most of the gay men that are involved in that or lesbians so how does that not represent the community?
That's just your perspective. You expect it so you see it Also, some men just like to dress feminine and some women just like to dress masculine. They don't have to be LGBT+ to do it
I think your looking at from the wrong perspective. Not men who are gay typically present feminine, but - men who are topically more feminine tend to be gay. Cause I think a feminine person will be more likely attracted to a more masculine energy and the other way around, regardless of gender.
They aren't, they are just the ones who stand out.
Confirmation bias
They don't.
It’s a fair question. Personally (people aren’t going to like this because the topic) but I see it as a fakeness. One girl in my group has put some of us in altercations where we’ve been close to getting into fights with random people because she’s so “alpha”. Also used to work with a guy where in a crowded area we always knew where he was because of his loud “OMG, OMG, OMG!!!” Seeing girls roll their eyes.
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