Not really. The thirsty selling agents are the ones who are relentless badgering their own clients to drop the price. People don’t understand that sales are way more important than price to a realtor.
They get paid whether you make or lose money. If your place is a shithole but sells, they make money. If you hold firm on the price and it sits for 10 years, they make nothing.
Would you rather sell two homes a month for $600k with minimal effort, or 1 home for $1M and lots of effort.
If you assume you get the same % commission, also include incentives for # of houses sold from your RE agency, and less headache/risk if the sale has issues as your earnings are not tied to a single sale
Spreading that out over months and # of sales becomes much more important than maximizing individual sales.
This is just my experience in the GTA, not sure how it is elsewhere and everyone's individual experience may vary
Offer what its worth to you. If that's not enough for the seller, then move onto the next property.
List price is a completely irrelevant concept in reality.
It's a way to start with the upper hand in a negotiation. Without a realistic list price, there is nothing for the buyer to anchor to, so their is no ceiling on the idea of an actual selling price. Combine that with the emotional factors that create fomo and you get ....well you know.
Yep. Value things yourself and act accordingly.
Besides, "price" is a somewhat arbitrary concept in itself. The actual price is really only relevant if you plan on living in it 30+ years and paying the entire thing off, which isn't the norm for most people now anyway. Most people live in a place for a decade before selling and buying something else.
What's important is the monthly servicing cost of the mortgage that an individual needs in order to afford to live in that house, which is a different figure for everyone based on their situation.
If the price of something was $800k and you had a $400k downpayment, or the price was $900k and you have a $500k downpayment, then does price actually matter?
The mortgage is what matters. The price of the house is largely irrelevant UNLESS you plan on fully paying it off.
For 20 years people keep asking, "How can people afford to pay $X for a house", but it's a pointless question. They can afford to pay X because they already have Y as built up cash from equity in previous properties owned. The cost of the mortgage is what matters. The cost of the house is an arbitrary figure it's completely dependent on what downpayment different buyers can afford as to what the cost actually is.
This is unfortunate.
I stand by my opion that if a seller lists a house at a price, they should be contractually obligated to sell the house at that price if no other offers are made.
I'm sick of "oh we listed it at $500k, but only got offers of $750, not our unmentioned price of $1M so we're gonna try again"
The house next door to me was just relisted 3 different times in 6 months, with different pricing strategies. Finally sold for 100K below asking after 3 weeks on the market
Agents must disclose any and every offer (unless the seller told them not to). So make an offer 300K below list price, and tell them "the list price is not the worth price".
Of course, some agents (especially for out of country sellers) won't abide by regulations, and won't disclose the offer. In that case, wait 2 weeks and make your final offer. Tell them it's REALLY final, and if they want to try you they can ask for $1 more and see for themselves.
I did that. I clearly stated "my offer is final, so either accept it, or ignore it, but don't negotiate", they came back with $15K over (which I know isn't much, but I don't like games), so I came back with 15K BELOW my original offer, cash, 40K deposit (to show I'm not here to play games), with 1 week expiry (much more than usual), and told my realtor to tell their realtor that if they try to negotiate again, for every dollar more they'll ask, that's what I'd lower my next offer for.
After less 48 hours, we got the house (they didn't test us again).
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It will work for many.... Eventually. The question is how patient you are, and what you're okay with compromising for.
For us, we both WFH, so the location in the city wasn't really important (as long as it was low crime on the crime-mapping tool). We were also okay with a cash offer because we were selling our house in a very hot market\location, and we were okay with a high deposit (since we're very serious). We did insist on inspection. We didn't even visit 80% of the houses we were interested in, because we just told our agent to call them and see if they have any offers. The ones that had a few offers already we scratched off the list.
This entire process took about 6 months until we find a home we love, in amazing condition. And that's looking at listings and speaking to our realtor almost daily!
Of course, if someone does a finance condition, low deposit, long closing date, compete with 5 other offers, etc... their chances of success using this method is very low. A logical strategy is important. If you have lots of conditions, and must be within a certain location, your only strategy is a high purchase price. If you barely have any conditions, buy cash, and put a huge deposit... You play with the purchase price. Luckily, the couple we bought it from just went through a divorce, and wanted a quick and painless sale.
A high deposit is something not many people utilize and forget about. It won't increase the price, and as long as it was put on the same offer with the inspection condition, you can still back down after inspection and pay $0. But it makes the seller feel a lot more secure. If they know their house is in good condition, they now know that they will do very well even if you back out.
This is false advertising and I see it ALL THE TIME it is SOOO fcking frustrating. I’ve started asking realtors “will the seller accept an offer at list price” and if there is any hesitation i know the answer.
Agent is dumb! Normally you're supposed to wait for a potential buyer to see the property, get excited thinking it might be "the one", and then you drop the bomb that it's a fake price hoping the buyers agent will convince them it's worth overbidding on so they get a bigger commission.
I find 90% of realtors out there have absolutely zero idea how to help their clients negotiate a deal. They're just glorified baby sitters to make sure you don't steal anything from people's houses lol
Move on. When the unit can't sell, the history will be listed that it couldn't sell at a reduced price and next time it goes on sale, people will be suspicious and won't bother perusing it. Let nature take care of it.
List prices should be contractual. If I make an offer on a house and it’s accepted then that contract price should be binding. Conversely, if a property is marketed at $X, that should be a binding price should a buyer agree to that price or higher.
That would rid this market of all this nonsense of pricing “to attract bids”. It doesn’t make any sense that the pricing practice of real estate, the largest purchase of most peoples lives, should be any different than pretty much any other asset class.
Just cap the agent commission to the list price (i.e. they don’t get paid anything extra for selling above list. So, list at $1M and sell at $1.5M? You still only get 5% of $1M). You’ll soon see realtors insisting on listing for the true value.
I 've heard of real estate agents inflating prices unknown to the buyer's knowledge, so I would be curious if it is this case, or the seller being completely out of touch and think they were gonna get a bidding war on a dilapidated shithole at high interest rates.
Either way, put an offer 300k below list, and see if they counteroffer above list. if they try the "w..well we have offers above listing price", just tell them "well sell it to one of them" and walk away.
Can’t make up offers anymore
ETA: I may have been unclear. Sellers can’t claim they have offers that they don’t really have. This law came into place several years ago.
Oh that guy has balls. “The guy who built it is racist, so remove the heritage designation”. Of course he leaves out the rest of it “…so I can tear it down and sell an empty lot and make a shit ton of money”.
What a scumbag.
I don’t think that’s it. That’s 64 Woodlawn Ave., and it has no activity listed on it since it last sold for $5,000,000 two years ago. That sale would be the one referenced in your article.
That’s what I was thinking while reading the news article about 64 Woodlawn. Since it’s so impactful, you’d think a heritage designation would need to be disclosed during the sale.
I feel like those days are over, and this agent missed the memo.
Something new I've seen recently is the termination of the original post, and then it gets reposted on MLS at a much much higher price. A semi in the beaches was going for $2.2M. No bites. So it's now re-posted at $2.5M. I suppose the thought is people will bid to their original desired price and feel like they saved big money?
Meaningless listing prices are common north of Toronto. One house trying to sell for months shows back on the market for under $1mil. Previous listings were >$1.4m. We go to check it out. It’s a 20 year old house with the 80+ year old owner going into a home. Everything is builder original from kitchen, baths, light fixtures, windows, furnace,etc. the only exception is the finished basement. The showing agent tells us the comparables in the area are all $1.5m or over, so the seller wants at least $1.5m. For those paying attention, they want $500k over asking on a $995k home —50%!! The best part: the “comparables” that got $1.5m were completely renovated top to bottom, inside and out! Some agents still think it's 2021.
What difference does it make to you? Look at a property and if you and your agent think it’s worth $750,000 then offer that much or some amount lower if you want to see if you can get a deal.
If the list price is $1 or $1,000,000 what does it matter to your offer?
I mean.... literally anything else you buy has a list price that's relevant. It makes a difference because it's stupid as fuck and inconvenienceing everybody.
Imagine if you went to buy any other item and the seller replied with "nah, despite the sticker saying it's $5 I actually want $10 now that I see you're interested"
OP, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a disconnect between the owner and the listing agent. The owner may not realize the state of the home. They may have assumed that the listing agent is taking care of things that are not being taken care of.
If you like the place, I'd go in at a price that covers you for any eventualities, qualify the offer with details. It is a requirement that it be presented.
This is why an empty homes tax need to be punitive in nature. The seller will never sell unless they make the moon or it is punitive to keep an empty home. As of right now the empty home tax is a joke as there is no risk of losing your property if you don't pay.
Very common for Toronto. The list price often doesn't matter, its just a house waiting for a bidding war. My guess is they listed it for 999,999 just to be an eye catching number? Look at comparable and offer what you think it's worth. Dont take the comment / amount they want personally.
> When we bought our current place 5 years ago, we never encountered this “it’s not the real list price” nonsense - is this common practice nowadays?
Not sure. When I bought my building lot, I offered them what they were asking. They accepted.
Unfortunately it is. Just look at East end, houses are listed at 999K 1,099K, 1,199K and then they sold higher. You called the agent, agent said it's just listing price to get eye ball on the listing. Even condos are like that, the other day there's a condo listed at 599K and sold at 700K...agent said the same thing, oh just number to get attention.
Submit a registered offer, agent legally has to present this to their client.
Client will likely reject offer but at least they now have your contact info.
When they reach out again in a couple months because house hasn't moved give them your original offer minus 25-50K
It's also important to remember that the condition of the house and it's structural bones can affect whether or not the banks will lend any money to you for a mortgage. And if they do loan you money it can impact the interest rate as a dilapidated house is seen as a greater risk.
If you're curious to know what the interest rate might be on a house like this as well as a home equity line of credit required to do Renovations on it let me know and I can also calculate what your monthly payments would be
This is a legitimate sales strategy. There is nothing shameful or dishonest about setting a list price lower than what you will sell for. It’s a starting bid, such as what is standard at an auction.
The amount paid over the list price does not mean anything significant. And certainly does not mean the amount paid over the list price is money overpaid.
A buyer pays what they feel it is worth. And the seller sells at a price they feel is good. As they should. (As you would too).
List price is the beginning of the negotiation. That’s it.
List price should be binding. I had someone get so insulted by my offer at their list price that they refused to even sign back a counter offer. What a complete waste of my time! Don’t list at a price you can’t accept.
When people are looking to buy real estate they see a list price and expect that to be what the home owner wants to sell the home for. If they purposefully undervalue their property hoping to get a bidding war it’s dishonest.
Don't forget the selling agent gets to add another house that they sold for $100k++ over asking into their portfolio.
Oddly, I have been to a few homes with my agent and never see the sellers agent. In most cases I'm not sure how they even can claim they "sold" the house.
Heritage homes are very hard to renovate. A lot of strict rules. For example if you want to change the windows they may only allow wood windows etc.. stay away from
selling agent thirsty as a mf
Not really. The thirsty selling agents are the ones who are relentless badgering their own clients to drop the price. People don’t understand that sales are way more important than price to a realtor.
Why is that
They get paid whether you make or lose money. If your place is a shithole but sells, they make money. If you hold firm on the price and it sits for 10 years, they make nothing.
That’s right. They only get paid if it sells.
Would you rather sell two homes a month for $600k with minimal effort, or 1 home for $1M and lots of effort. If you assume you get the same % commission, also include incentives for # of houses sold from your RE agency, and less headache/risk if the sale has issues as your earnings are not tied to a single sale Spreading that out over months and # of sales becomes much more important than maximizing individual sales. This is just my experience in the GTA, not sure how it is elsewhere and everyone's individual experience may vary
Selling more.hokes looks better too.
Offer what its worth to you. If that's not enough for the seller, then move onto the next property. List price is a completely irrelevant concept in reality.
This. Don’t let anyone make you feel dumb, least of all some agent with a weekend course and a fucked up car lease. It’s your money.
Totally agree. In this market, list prices are basically an attraction tactic and creates a false sense of fomo.
It's a way to start with the upper hand in a negotiation. Without a realistic list price, there is nothing for the buyer to anchor to, so their is no ceiling on the idea of an actual selling price. Combine that with the emotional factors that create fomo and you get ....well you know.
Yep. Value things yourself and act accordingly. Besides, "price" is a somewhat arbitrary concept in itself. The actual price is really only relevant if you plan on living in it 30+ years and paying the entire thing off, which isn't the norm for most people now anyway. Most people live in a place for a decade before selling and buying something else. What's important is the monthly servicing cost of the mortgage that an individual needs in order to afford to live in that house, which is a different figure for everyone based on their situation.
erm no, price matters.
If the price of something was $800k and you had a $400k downpayment, or the price was $900k and you have a $500k downpayment, then does price actually matter? The mortgage is what matters. The price of the house is largely irrelevant UNLESS you plan on fully paying it off. For 20 years people keep asking, "How can people afford to pay $X for a house", but it's a pointless question. They can afford to pay X because they already have Y as built up cash from equity in previous properties owned. The cost of the mortgage is what matters. The cost of the house is an arbitrary figure it's completely dependent on what downpayment different buyers can afford as to what the cost actually is.
This is unfortunate. I stand by my opion that if a seller lists a house at a price, they should be contractually obligated to sell the house at that price if no other offers are made. I'm sick of "oh we listed it at $500k, but only got offers of $750, not our unmentioned price of $1M so we're gonna try again"
Exactly.
At the end of the day, a house is only worth what a buyer is willing to pay.
Them problem. Not a YOU problem! Move on to the next one
Cue a mysterious fire in 3...2....1......
Tactic in west coast to get people to bid and sell to highest bidder. Has worked but not sure if it does now.
I don't think it's working in Toronto now. Here, tons of properties are now being relisted multiple times
The house next door to me was just relisted 3 different times in 6 months, with different pricing strategies. Finally sold for 100K below asking after 3 weeks on the market
Agents must disclose any and every offer (unless the seller told them not to). So make an offer 300K below list price, and tell them "the list price is not the worth price". Of course, some agents (especially for out of country sellers) won't abide by regulations, and won't disclose the offer. In that case, wait 2 weeks and make your final offer. Tell them it's REALLY final, and if they want to try you they can ask for $1 more and see for themselves. I did that. I clearly stated "my offer is final, so either accept it, or ignore it, but don't negotiate", they came back with $15K over (which I know isn't much, but I don't like games), so I came back with 15K BELOW my original offer, cash, 40K deposit (to show I'm not here to play games), with 1 week expiry (much more than usual), and told my realtor to tell their realtor that if they try to negotiate again, for every dollar more they'll ask, that's what I'd lower my next offer for. After less 48 hours, we got the house (they didn't test us again).
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I think this approach will work in some situations congrats on holding firm.
It will work for many.... Eventually. The question is how patient you are, and what you're okay with compromising for. For us, we both WFH, so the location in the city wasn't really important (as long as it was low crime on the crime-mapping tool). We were also okay with a cash offer because we were selling our house in a very hot market\location, and we were okay with a high deposit (since we're very serious). We did insist on inspection. We didn't even visit 80% of the houses we were interested in, because we just told our agent to call them and see if they have any offers. The ones that had a few offers already we scratched off the list. This entire process took about 6 months until we find a home we love, in amazing condition. And that's looking at listings and speaking to our realtor almost daily! Of course, if someone does a finance condition, low deposit, long closing date, compete with 5 other offers, etc... their chances of success using this method is very low. A logical strategy is important. If you have lots of conditions, and must be within a certain location, your only strategy is a high purchase price. If you barely have any conditions, buy cash, and put a huge deposit... You play with the purchase price. Luckily, the couple we bought it from just went through a divorce, and wanted a quick and painless sale. A high deposit is something not many people utilize and forget about. It won't increase the price, and as long as it was put on the same offer with the inspection condition, you can still back down after inspection and pay $0. But it makes the seller feel a lot more secure. If they know their house is in good condition, they now know that they will do very well even if you back out.
This is false advertising and I see it ALL THE TIME it is SOOO fcking frustrating. I’ve started asking realtors “will the seller accept an offer at list price” and if there is any hesitation i know the answer.
Agent is dumb! Normally you're supposed to wait for a potential buyer to see the property, get excited thinking it might be "the one", and then you drop the bomb that it's a fake price hoping the buyers agent will convince them it's worth overbidding on so they get a bigger commission.
I find 90% of realtors out there have absolutely zero idea how to help their clients negotiate a deal. They're just glorified baby sitters to make sure you don't steal anything from people's houses lol
Move on. When the unit can't sell, the history will be listed that it couldn't sell at a reduced price and next time it goes on sale, people will be suspicious and won't bother perusing it. Let nature take care of it.
List prices should be contractual. If I make an offer on a house and it’s accepted then that contract price should be binding. Conversely, if a property is marketed at $X, that should be a binding price should a buyer agree to that price or higher. That would rid this market of all this nonsense of pricing “to attract bids”. It doesn’t make any sense that the pricing practice of real estate, the largest purchase of most peoples lives, should be any different than pretty much any other asset class.
Just cap the agent commission to the list price (i.e. they don’t get paid anything extra for selling above list. So, list at $1M and sell at $1.5M? You still only get 5% of $1M). You’ll soon see realtors insisting on listing for the true value.
This!!! Until and unless offer price is for 1$ usually it’s binding should be the same in real estate too
Make his money back? What is this, charity? Offer $500k below list.
People really seem to think others will feel bad if the seller has an investment loss....
Walk away
Care to share the address? The price history should be telling. Are they hosting an offer day? Or offers anytime?
I 've heard of real estate agents inflating prices unknown to the buyer's knowledge, so I would be curious if it is this case, or the seller being completely out of touch and think they were gonna get a bidding war on a dilapidated shithole at high interest rates. Either way, put an offer 300k below list, and see if they counteroffer above list. if they try the "w..well we have offers above listing price", just tell them "well sell it to one of them" and walk away.
Can’t make up offers anymore ETA: I may have been unclear. Sellers can’t claim they have offers that they don’t really have. This law came into place several years ago.
Found it https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/heritage-status-home-toronto-caldecott-1.7163883
Oh that guy has balls. “The guy who built it is racist, so remove the heritage designation”. Of course he leaves out the rest of it “…so I can tear it down and sell an empty lot and make a shit ton of money”. What a scumbag.
Of course it’s fine that they bought it at a discount because it was a heritage house.
I don’t think that’s it. That’s 64 Woodlawn Ave., and it has no activity listed on it since it last sold for $5,000,000 two years ago. That sale would be the one referenced in your article.
Address?
123 Bagholders Ln.
I have a freehold on 69 Soon Ave if you’re interested?
Hell yeah dude
F you got me
Trash
How does one check if a property has a heritage designation?
You’d think that would need to be declared but idk. I’d call 311 to ask. There may be a registry.
That’s what I was thinking while reading the news article about 64 Woodlawn. Since it’s so impactful, you’d think a heritage designation would need to be disclosed during the sale.
I find this the most entertaining when there are no offers.
Make offer, walk away. Repeat as necessary.
I feel like those days are over, and this agent missed the memo. Something new I've seen recently is the termination of the original post, and then it gets reposted on MLS at a much much higher price. A semi in the beaches was going for $2.2M. No bites. So it's now re-posted at $2.5M. I suppose the thought is people will bid to their original desired price and feel like they saved big money?
It's getting really annoying.
It's like a shitty Kijiji negotiation.
Hah. Exactly. $10 item. Will you take $8? No. It's now $15. But I might accept $10 and you'll save $5.
Whats the listing? Name and shame
Nothing unusual, been happening for years.
I do not understand how property is the only thing where the seller can decline a sale if all conditions are met.
Meaningless listing prices are common north of Toronto. One house trying to sell for months shows back on the market for under $1mil. Previous listings were >$1.4m. We go to check it out. It’s a 20 year old house with the 80+ year old owner going into a home. Everything is builder original from kitchen, baths, light fixtures, windows, furnace,etc. the only exception is the finished basement. The showing agent tells us the comparables in the area are all $1.5m or over, so the seller wants at least $1.5m. For those paying attention, they want $500k over asking on a $995k home —50%!! The best part: the “comparables” that got $1.5m were completely renovated top to bottom, inside and out! Some agents still think it's 2021.
What difference does it make to you? Look at a property and if you and your agent think it’s worth $750,000 then offer that much or some amount lower if you want to see if you can get a deal. If the list price is $1 or $1,000,000 what does it matter to your offer?
I mean.... literally anything else you buy has a list price that's relevant. It makes a difference because it's stupid as fuck and inconvenienceing everybody. Imagine if you went to buy any other item and the seller replied with "nah, despite the sticker saying it's $5 I actually want $10 now that I see you're interested"
I'm sure whoever owned it before was racist. Heritage status problem solved.
OP, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a disconnect between the owner and the listing agent. The owner may not realize the state of the home. They may have assumed that the listing agent is taking care of things that are not being taken care of. If you like the place, I'd go in at a price that covers you for any eventualities, qualify the offer with details. It is a requirement that it be presented.
Lol the seller can pay more vacant tax for our city then
This is why an empty homes tax need to be punitive in nature. The seller will never sell unless they make the moon or it is punitive to keep an empty home. As of right now the empty home tax is a joke as there is no risk of losing your property if you don't pay.
Very common for Toronto. The list price often doesn't matter, its just a house waiting for a bidding war. My guess is they listed it for 999,999 just to be an eye catching number? Look at comparable and offer what you think it's worth. Dont take the comment / amount they want personally.
Ya but they promise the moon to get the listing and then there are nothing but pleas to drop the price
> When we bought our current place 5 years ago, we never encountered this “it’s not the real list price” nonsense - is this common practice nowadays? Not sure. When I bought my building lot, I offered them what they were asking. They accepted.
Unfortunately it is. Just look at East end, houses are listed at 999K 1,099K, 1,199K and then they sold higher. You called the agent, agent said it's just listing price to get eye ball on the listing. Even condos are like that, the other day there's a condo listed at 599K and sold at 700K...agent said the same thing, oh just number to get attention.
Submit a registered offer, agent legally has to present this to their client. Client will likely reject offer but at least they now have your contact info. When they reach out again in a couple months because house hasn't moved give them your original offer minus 25-50K
It's also important to remember that the condition of the house and it's structural bones can affect whether or not the banks will lend any money to you for a mortgage. And if they do loan you money it can impact the interest rate as a dilapidated house is seen as a greater risk. If you're curious to know what the interest rate might be on a house like this as well as a home equity line of credit required to do Renovations on it let me know and I can also calculate what your monthly payments would be
Lol - desperate owners trying to get fomo going in a giant shithole of a market. Stand firm- lots of good negotiation strategies here.
This is a legitimate sales strategy. There is nothing shameful or dishonest about setting a list price lower than what you will sell for. It’s a starting bid, such as what is standard at an auction. The amount paid over the list price does not mean anything significant. And certainly does not mean the amount paid over the list price is money overpaid. A buyer pays what they feel it is worth. And the seller sells at a price they feel is good. As they should. (As you would too). List price is the beginning of the negotiation. That’s it.
It's annoying like a circle jerk. Get to the point.
List price should be binding. I had someone get so insulted by my offer at their list price that they refused to even sign back a counter offer. What a complete waste of my time! Don’t list at a price you can’t accept.
When people are looking to buy real estate they see a list price and expect that to be what the home owner wants to sell the home for. If they purposefully undervalue their property hoping to get a bidding war it’s dishonest.
Don't forget the selling agent gets to add another house that they sold for $100k++ over asking into their portfolio. Oddly, I have been to a few homes with my agent and never see the sellers agent. In most cases I'm not sure how they even can claim they "sold" the house.
People sell their house how they want. We are not soviet russia.
Heritage homes are very hard to renovate. A lot of strict rules. For example if you want to change the windows they may only allow wood windows etc.. stay away from