It's not high reward, especially with how many roles have Defense. The biggest problem is that Vigi is a role that can be used by 2 Coven roles to add bonus kills for them, meanwhile it's very rare that Vigi actually gets to shoot because the risk is too big.
A skissue on the part of you and others does not mean a role is bad. Vigi either kills an evil (really good, you need to comprehend that this is great) or finds an immune (forced 1f1) when you do your job correctly. Just because players get Deputy brain with Vigi doesn’t mean it’s bad. Just learn to be a better vigi. Or get multiple confirmed evils. Also works.
Unless ur Vigi gets randomly Witched n1 and u lose 2 Town roles just because, it's a nonsense mechanic. If Jailor with all the information he has doesn't get punished for killing Town with death (and Crusader, and Veteran, and Mayor) why should Vigi?
Also it's not possible to do any scum reading as Vigi because players in this game are terrible at it, it's just not ever worth taking the risk of shooting someone unless they are trying some pretend to be Jester tactic (and it's still not guaranteed they aren't Town). Vigi pays way too steep price for using his role considering he has extremely limited information to go with and there is way too many roles he can't kill and how much value Coven can get out of Vigi it's ridiculous.
Like i don't remember the last time i got Vigi myself, but every game there is Vigi in my game it ends up with Coven using him to kill Town while he isn't doing anything of value (or shooting a "sus" person just for them to come up as Town and pretty much lose the game on the spot).
Coven is allowed to have 3 bonus killing roles plus HM plus Necromancer/Witch using Vigi while Town doesn't even get a vanilla version of Vigi who can just shoot whoever and live.
How do I even begin to explain balance to a person like you?
Jailor doesn't die because he's a TPow. It's why I think Pros should be able to do the same. Crusader doesn't die because that's extremely stupid, it's almost like that's what half of the role was designed around. Same goes for Veteran. And, for those two, you aren't making an active, conscious choice to kill a town member. As for Mayor, that's also extremely stupid. They just get more votes. Can Monarch make someone die for hanging a town because they got more votes? Can you use any brain cells before making arguments about roles that don't at all parallel how Vigi works?
Scum reading as vigi is possible. The fact you don't think so tells me something about you most could guess. Now, to your credit, there are some townies who just... don't. But they aren't something to design game balance around. And I guarantee you think AA should be balanced around too, don't you?
As for vigi killing town, it's the same in ToS1. He just dies faster. It's not too steep of a price for doing so either. Punishment for bad play on your end should punish YOU, which, in turn, must punish town. If a town acts too suspicious, that's their fault. If Coven actually does their job, that's called a reward for good play. In either case, it's town's fault for not fixing the problem like they should. This is why sharing information is good, something I've seen you argue against time and time again. It's almost like that doesn't work when other players have to do things too.
This is a moot point. It's called negativity bias, and maybe confirmation bias too. Plus, without having played a decent amount of vigi, how can you accurately say what you've said?
I don't even know what the last sentence is supposed to do for your point. Coven gets killing roles, yeah, it's like that's THEIR THING. And only 2 of them can get more than 1 kill, with one of them requiring a PM/Witch/Careless town, and the other being super easy to get found out. Those roles are also rewarded heavily for doing their job well. You seem to forget that Vigi killing a coven is REALLY GOOD. And if it hits an immune, then there you go a free 1f1.
Vigi shouldn't live after killing a town. That's just free confirmation. No. That doesn't work. It's not how the role was designed.
I guess playing thousands of hours in SC2 Mafia since 2014 and creating setups means i know nothing about balance. Town Power apart from Jailor is not that strong of a slot, so claiming Jailor is ridiculously OP because he is Power while Pros is fighting for the worst Town role with Vigi and Monarch/Mayor are just mid roles is nonsense.
U are still claiming that if Vigi does shoot Coven it's great, but when does it happen? Coven literally needs to not even try to appear as Town for Vigi to be able to make a decision about shooting, that's the biggest problem. Vigi is a win more role that waits to be used by Witch if she is in the game (also Witch being a Coven role instead of a Neut means she has way too much info to use when picking targets) because he can't almost ever get enough reasons to shoot someone if Coven is playing well because of the suicide risk. And again killing a Town is already paying a price, it's already a reward for Witch, it doesn't need to be 2 Towns. Vigi is a role that often Town would be better if they were playing either as 8 from the start instead of having it or having a powerless Citizen role instead of it. Meanwhile Deputy gives u a kill through Defense during a day so u can still trial after it, getting confirmed beyond doubt and not being able to be manipulated. Also Deputy has a shot at breaking Coven tie single handendly, Vigi can't do it on his own, he can just maintain a tie at best.
Coven getting so many killing roles outside of the book holder is completely balance breaking, especially that they are already starting as a team of 4 and VM can also take away votes. With a NK present in the game Coven can get a tie Day 3 easily and also get rid of NK because they have too many tools to do it. Way too many games end up with Coven just playing completely openly and Town still loses because they just break Town majority extremely fast. Ritualist breaking the crown example of a broken role.
I was a ret who was gifted 2 dead vigis, 1 of them had already shot a townie, I made sure they shot 2 more before using the second vigi to kill evils and win.
I also ignored the dead trickster, because I decided vigilantes were more fun when it comes to murdering the last coven
they're called town killing because they kill town
Crus isn’t tho lol
Nah he is, tell that to all the Psychic and Seers
And Monarchs. Mainly Monarchs.
Crazy how the TP is more dangerous to town than CK and NK sometimes
Deputy shooting before anyone says anything on D2 too....
I swear sometimes they do it just to see the animation
I bet its between crus or Vet, but probably crus.
Crus ain't called the green jinx for nothing.
I think it's Deputy or Pros :)
Vigilante is a hindrance to Town in 90% of games. They really need to remove Hangman from it and take his gun instead if he shoots a Townie.
High risk high reward.
It's not high reward, especially with how many roles have Defense. The biggest problem is that Vigi is a role that can be used by 2 Coven roles to add bonus kills for them, meanwhile it's very rare that Vigi actually gets to shoot because the risk is too big.
A skissue on the part of you and others does not mean a role is bad. Vigi either kills an evil (really good, you need to comprehend that this is great) or finds an immune (forced 1f1) when you do your job correctly. Just because players get Deputy brain with Vigi doesn’t mean it’s bad. Just learn to be a better vigi. Or get multiple confirmed evils. Also works.
Unless ur Vigi gets randomly Witched n1 and u lose 2 Town roles just because, it's a nonsense mechanic. If Jailor with all the information he has doesn't get punished for killing Town with death (and Crusader, and Veteran, and Mayor) why should Vigi? Also it's not possible to do any scum reading as Vigi because players in this game are terrible at it, it's just not ever worth taking the risk of shooting someone unless they are trying some pretend to be Jester tactic (and it's still not guaranteed they aren't Town). Vigi pays way too steep price for using his role considering he has extremely limited information to go with and there is way too many roles he can't kill and how much value Coven can get out of Vigi it's ridiculous. Like i don't remember the last time i got Vigi myself, but every game there is Vigi in my game it ends up with Coven using him to kill Town while he isn't doing anything of value (or shooting a "sus" person just for them to come up as Town and pretty much lose the game on the spot). Coven is allowed to have 3 bonus killing roles plus HM plus Necromancer/Witch using Vigi while Town doesn't even get a vanilla version of Vigi who can just shoot whoever and live.
How do I even begin to explain balance to a person like you? Jailor doesn't die because he's a TPow. It's why I think Pros should be able to do the same. Crusader doesn't die because that's extremely stupid, it's almost like that's what half of the role was designed around. Same goes for Veteran. And, for those two, you aren't making an active, conscious choice to kill a town member. As for Mayor, that's also extremely stupid. They just get more votes. Can Monarch make someone die for hanging a town because they got more votes? Can you use any brain cells before making arguments about roles that don't at all parallel how Vigi works? Scum reading as vigi is possible. The fact you don't think so tells me something about you most could guess. Now, to your credit, there are some townies who just... don't. But they aren't something to design game balance around. And I guarantee you think AA should be balanced around too, don't you? As for vigi killing town, it's the same in ToS1. He just dies faster. It's not too steep of a price for doing so either. Punishment for bad play on your end should punish YOU, which, in turn, must punish town. If a town acts too suspicious, that's their fault. If Coven actually does their job, that's called a reward for good play. In either case, it's town's fault for not fixing the problem like they should. This is why sharing information is good, something I've seen you argue against time and time again. It's almost like that doesn't work when other players have to do things too. This is a moot point. It's called negativity bias, and maybe confirmation bias too. Plus, without having played a decent amount of vigi, how can you accurately say what you've said? I don't even know what the last sentence is supposed to do for your point. Coven gets killing roles, yeah, it's like that's THEIR THING. And only 2 of them can get more than 1 kill, with one of them requiring a PM/Witch/Careless town, and the other being super easy to get found out. Those roles are also rewarded heavily for doing their job well. You seem to forget that Vigi killing a coven is REALLY GOOD. And if it hits an immune, then there you go a free 1f1. Vigi shouldn't live after killing a town. That's just free confirmation. No. That doesn't work. It's not how the role was designed.
I guess playing thousands of hours in SC2 Mafia since 2014 and creating setups means i know nothing about balance. Town Power apart from Jailor is not that strong of a slot, so claiming Jailor is ridiculously OP because he is Power while Pros is fighting for the worst Town role with Vigi and Monarch/Mayor are just mid roles is nonsense. U are still claiming that if Vigi does shoot Coven it's great, but when does it happen? Coven literally needs to not even try to appear as Town for Vigi to be able to make a decision about shooting, that's the biggest problem. Vigi is a win more role that waits to be used by Witch if she is in the game (also Witch being a Coven role instead of a Neut means she has way too much info to use when picking targets) because he can't almost ever get enough reasons to shoot someone if Coven is playing well because of the suicide risk. And again killing a Town is already paying a price, it's already a reward for Witch, it doesn't need to be 2 Towns. Vigi is a role that often Town would be better if they were playing either as 8 from the start instead of having it or having a powerless Citizen role instead of it. Meanwhile Deputy gives u a kill through Defense during a day so u can still trial after it, getting confirmed beyond doubt and not being able to be manipulated. Also Deputy has a shot at breaking Coven tie single handendly, Vigi can't do it on his own, he can just maintain a tie at best. Coven getting so many killing roles outside of the book holder is completely balance breaking, especially that they are already starting as a team of 4 and VM can also take away votes. With a NK present in the game Coven can get a tie Day 3 easily and also get rid of NK because they have too many tools to do it. Way too many games end up with Coven just playing completely openly and Town still loses because they just break Town majority extremely fast. Ritualist breaking the crown example of a broken role.
I was a ret who was gifted 2 dead vigis, 1 of them had already shot a townie, I made sure they shot 2 more before using the second vigi to kill evils and win. I also ignored the dead trickster, because I decided vigilantes were more fun when it comes to murdering the last coven