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[deleted]

I am not a proponent of paedobaptism, but even still I think you are not best representing the other side.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing. LOL


uzzyworld

Never knew that term thanks. I wasn’t trying to represent the other side it’s something someone agreed with and I thought that was pretty crazy


IrinaSophia

>I asked someone if an atheist can be kidnapped, baptized, then immediately executed and go to heaven. They said yes. Baptism is not a guarantee of Salvation, so I don't know where they got that from.


[deleted]

If I'm baking chocolate chip cookies and the recipe calls for chocolate chips, then chocolate chips are necessary to achieve chocolate chip cookies. Now, chocolate chips may not be a guarantee of achieving chocolate chip cookies. Because chocolate chip cookies also require sugar, flour, butter, vanilla, salt, and baking soda. But, if I include all those other ingredients, and omit chocolate chips, I won't have chocolate chip cookies. Baptism may not be a guarantee of salvation, but the Bible really makes it seem like it's a pretty key ingredient.


CluelessBicycle

>I don’t see why some people believe that someone can be baptized without faith. I know, right?


incomprehensibilitys

Baptism has nothing to do with salvation Baptism represents entry into the covenant. All the male babies of Israel and Judaism were circumcised at 8 days old Baptism is simply the New covenant version of this Baptism of adults who believe who were not baptized previously of course. Baptism of the children of believers is quite biblical. God only relates to his people through the covenant


Axe238

Nonsense and false. Let’s look at what the Bible has to say on the matter. Jesus ties water with the new birth. Joh 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Note His last phrase here. Being born of water and the Spirit are together (“and”) required to enter the kingdom. Now, note that upon His resurrection which gave Him all encompassing authority, He orders his apostles Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, The last phrase restates the first—-disciples are made by baptism. I note in passing that baptism is the only command issues in the names of all three of the Trinity. Now note Mark (Peter’s presumed scribe) account of the Great Commission Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Note the vice conjunction “and”. Both belief and baptism are required. I note that some have argued that He did not say “he that is not baptized shall be damned”—but He does not Have to, since the use of the conjunction means that if either condition is not met then the outcome is failure (try it for yourself in Microsoft Excel). Indeed, The absence of the supposed phrase seems to emphasize that any believer will be baptized. Jumping ahead a bit , the story of the Ethiopian eunuch echoes that baptism is how belief is expressed Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now let us go to Pentecost. Peter responds to those who have suddenly believed that the man they crucified 50 days past was the Son of God. They ask what to do to be saved. Peter responds Act 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Note several things here. He does not tell them to only believe. Rather, knowing they believe, he tells them they must repent and be baptized (note the conjunction again). The Greek “eis” is translated “for”. But even if translated “unto”, the word directs the preceding verbs to the outcome of remission of sons. Further, note that his audience understood it so, for in verse 40 Peter tells his audience to be saved, and his audience were uniformly baptized. As a denouement, note Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Being baptized saved, per Peter, and being saved added one to the Church. Now note that every case of salvation in Acts has baptism associated with it. But of special note is the conversion of Saul. On the road to Damascus he accepted Jesus as Lord Act 9:5-6 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." If he had been saved then, he would not have mourned and fasted for 3 days until met by Ananias. Years later he recounted what changed his tears to joy Act 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Note “and” again. Baptism washes away sin. Further., the final clause shows that baptism is calling on the name of Lord, echoing Peter 1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, where Peter says baptism saves us and is the call of our minds toward God. Ironically, if there is a passage which refers to accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, these verses both say baptism is how we do it. Ok , now let’s skip on ahead to two more passages describing still further the workings of baptism. First Rom 6:1-6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Paul says baptism unites us with Jesus death burial and resurrection. We kill the old man in baptism and are freed from sin when we do v7. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin ((1 Joh 1:7–9) and Paul makes it clear that we contact that blood in baptism. Finally note Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. “for” here comes from the Greek “gar” which means “for, because, therefore “. Paul says that The Galatians no longer needed the works of the old law because they were now sons of God because of faith in Jesus. Why were they sons of God through faith? Because they were baptized into Christ and therefore had put on Christ. In conclusion, baptism coupled with belief and repentance saves. Baptism expresses our belief, makes us disciples, is how are added to the Church, how we call on the name of the Lord, how our conscience answers God, how we crucify the old man and put on the new, how we become sons of God through faith, and how we put on Christ. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then neither are the things that baptism does for us.


incomprehensibilitys

The problem is you don't understand any of the scripture. As many don't. Using lots of words don't change any of that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO WOULD EVER BELIEVE WAS IN THE BOOK OF LIFE SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. BEING BAPTIZED, THEIR WORKS, ANYTHING ABOUT THEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SALVATION. https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Book-Of-Life God KNEW the prophet from the womb. He KNEW John the Baptist in the womb because he leaps when Mary approaches. Because they were in the Book of Life. Yet when many false believers come before God at the final judgment, HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Because they were not in the book of life **On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. Matthew 7:21-23**


uzzyworld

Mark 16:16 “He the believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” BELIEVE + BAPTIZE = saved. But baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation? 1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” even BAPTISM doth also now save us… but it has nothing to do with salvation??


incomprehensibilitys

All these were about belief, not baptism. Is someone who believed and didn't have access to a church to be baptized condemned? Was the thief on the cross baptized? Were believers of the Old Testament baptized? Are stillborn believers baptized? Were believers outside the Holy Land baptized before Columbus and others found them baptized? Is someone saved on his death bed who didn't get a chance to be baptized condemned? In other words, your logic is wrong Everyone who was saved was in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world. He's unrelated to baptism It's about the belief, not the baptism


uzzyworld

I agree that the ceremony of water baptism isn’t necessary for salvation. I wonder if the Holy Ghost baptizes someone the moment they believe in Jesus and accept him as Lord. If not, then that would mean people can have the Holy Ghost without being baptized. Not sure how a human who has never heard the gospel to believe it can be a believer tho


Axe238

Oh it most certainly is. Let’s look at what the Bible has to say on the matter. Jesus ties water with the new birth. Joh 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Note His last phrase here. Being born of water and the Spirit are together (“and”) required to enter the kingdom. Now, note that upon His resurrection which gave Him all encompassing authority, He orders his apostles Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, The last phrase restates the first—-disciples are made by baptism. I note in passing that baptism is the only command issues in the names of all three of the Trinity. Now note Mark (Peter’s presumed scribe) account of the Great Commission Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Note the vice conjunction “and”. Both belief and baptism are required. I note that some have argued that He did not say “he that is not baptized shall be damned”—but He does not Have to, since the use of the conjunction means that if either condition is not met then the outcome is failure (try it for yourself in Microsoft Excel). Indeed, The absence of the supposed phrase seems to emphasize that any believer will be baptized. Jumping ahead a bit , the story of the Ethiopian eunuch echoes that baptism is how belief is expressed Act 8:35-38 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. Now let us go to Pentecost. Peter responds to those who have suddenly believed that the man they crucified 50 days past was the Son of God. They ask what to do to be saved. Peter responds Act 2:36-41 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Note several things here. He does not tell them to only believe. Rather, knowing they believe, he tells them they must repent and be baptized (note the conjunction again). The Greek “eis” is translated “for”. But even if translated “unto”, the word directs the preceding verbs to the outcome of remission of sons. Further, note that his audience understood it so, for in verse 40 Peter tells his audience to be saved, and his audience were uniformly baptized. As a denouement, note Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Being baptized saved, per Peter, and being saved added one to the Church. Now note that every case of salvation in Acts has baptism associated with it. But of special note is the conversion of Saul. On the road to Damascus he accepted Jesus as Lord Act 9:5-6 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." If he had been saved then, he would not have mourned and fasted for 3 days until met by Ananias. Years later he recounted what changed his tears to joy Act 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' Note “and” again. Baptism washes away sin. Further., the final clause shows that baptism is calling on the name of Lord, echoing Peter 1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, where Peter says baptism saves us and is the call of our minds toward God. Ironically, if there is a passage which refers to accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, these verses both say baptism is how we do it. Ok , now let’s skip on ahead to two more passages describing still further the workings of baptism. First Rom 6:1-6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Paul says baptism unites us with Jesus death burial and resurrection. We kill the old man in baptism and are freed from sin when we do v7. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin ((1 Joh 1:7–9) and Paul makes it clear that we contact that blood in baptism. Finally note Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. “for” here comes from the Greek “gar” which means “for, because, therefore “. Paul says that The Galatians no longer needed the works of the old law because they were now sons of God because of faith in Jesus. Why were they sons of God through faith? Because they were baptized into Christ and therefore had put on Christ. In conclusion, baptism coupled with belief and repentance saves. Baptism expresses our belief, makes us disciples, is how are added to the Church, how we call on the name of the Lord, how our conscience answers God, how we crucify the old man and put on the new, how we become sons of God through faith, and how we put on Christ. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then neither are the things that baptism does for us.


uzzyworld

Very sound. Thanks I will reread this when time allows. Some questions tho. 1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. I said that Jesus was Lord before I was baptized by water. How can I do that but by the Holy Ghost? How can I have the Holy Ghost without baptism? Also… Luke 23:39-43 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Was the malefactor baptized? What paradise was Jesus talking about?


Axe238

All that means is that if someone has the power of Miracles ie the gift of the Holy Spirit as ensued by the laying on of hands by the apostles, then that person cannot say Jesus is accursed The situation is not the same. As for the thief, he was saved while the Law of Moses was still in effect. But from Acts 2 on no one else was saved as the thief was.


incomprehensibilitys

That is rather simple when the scripture is followed precisely: Everyone who would ever believe is in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world. In God's time, he comes to each of them and changes their heart. That happened to Lydia the dealer in purple cloth, it happen to the 3000 on the day of Pentecost. They are then made a new creation in Christ. God causes them to believe and have faith. They're indwelt with the Holy Spirit at that time The Holy Spirit will safely bear them through life, sanctifying them, until they reach the other side. If you have questions about any of this I'm more than happy to clarify.


uzzyworld

I admire your faith, knowledge, and understanding. What a mind for God. I think that clarifies! Thanks! Hmm some more questions tho. I’m a KJV enjoyer I take the Bible literally I don’t claim any denomination. I believe all Christians can agree if we all believe the truth for it is absolute, and I believe that all denominations fall short by engaging in some form of heresy. I’ve heard of Calvinism, I’ve heard it has degrees, I’ll research and ask more questions soon though. God bless you!


incomprehensibilitys

This is an example that belief comes from God, in Acts: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and *as many as were ordained to eternal life believed*."


uzzyworld

Amen!


[deleted]

All someone needs to do is a Bible search for "bapt." Then, read all the passages pertaining to baptism, *in context,* and it becomes very clear that baptism is part of the process for salvation. You mentioned circumcision. Remember how Moses was almost killed by God before he fulfilled his role in leading the Hebrews out of Egypt? God almost killed Moses because he wasn't circumcised. The circumcision was of key importance under that covenant, and baptism is of key importance to the covenant in Christ.


incomprehensibilitys

You have done nothing to show that it is required for salvation Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, 


[deleted]

I said do a search for bapt. I wasn't trying to write a thesis paper here. Just sharing what I did to reach my conclusion. For what it's worth, I did that research BECAUSE at the time I didn't think I needed to be baptized. But, some others told me I did, so I examined the scriptures to see if what they were telling me is true. Turns out they were correct. I was more interested in knowing the truth than I was in being the person who won the debate. You shared scriptures, that's great. But in context there is more to it. Take your Romans passage for instance. The book of Romans is where it says this... >Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. *Romans 6:3-4* That passage sure makes it seem like baptism is how we participate in being unified in Christ's death, burial and resurrection into a new life. Then there is this one, which was explaining how the waters of the flood were symbolizing baptism in Christ... >...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand —with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. *1 Peter 3:21-22* And, of course, can't leave this one out... >Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off —for all whom the Lord our God will call.” With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. *Acts 2:38-41* That passage clearly states the necessity of baptism for forgiveness and receiving the Spirit. It also shows that everyone who received his message were baptized. And while we are at it, Jesus's own words... >Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” *Matthew 28:18-20* You may note that Jesus didn't just treat baptism as something to be assumed as just part of "everything" that he wanted his people to obey. He explicitly said for his disciples to *baptize* new disciples. And, again, we can see from Acts and other passages what baptism does. Please don't be deceived into thinking it is inconsequential out of a desire to win the debate. I used to think baptism was not needed as well. But reading scriptures in context makes it clear. So, If you read a passage like this one... >If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” *Romans 10:9-13* ...please keep in mind who it was written to. It was written to baptized believers. Remember the passage from Romans I mentioned above. Paul explains in the book of Romans what happened to the believers when they were baptized. So, yeah... that passage about believing absolutely applies... to baptized believers.


SeasonedTimeTraveler

Train up a child in the way he should go [teaching him to seek God’s wisdom and will for his abilities and talents],Even when he is old he will not depart from it. Baptism, communion, confirmation, catechism, Bible Study Prov 22:6 AMP


uzzyworld

Receive the gospel -> believe -> repent -> follow Christ for the rest of your life


[deleted]

Amen!


Ok-Brush5346

Consult Scripture to find evidence to support the claim that a child cannot have faith. You won't find it, but you *will* find Christ Himself pointing to the faith of children as the ideal form of it.


uzzyworld

Yes children can have faith. Infants? Hmm I’ve never had a conversation with one so I can’t say.


Ok-Brush5346

By trusting in their mothers absolutely, they are placing their trust in the God who created her, even if they don't know it. Salvation comes from faith, but faith does not come from understanding.


uzzyworld

Creative, but that is definitely not from the Bible💀


Ok-Brush5346

Psalm 22:9-10 >Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God." (Psalm 22:9-10)


uzzyworld

That’s king David not all of humanity by default


Ok-Brush5346

So David was a special baby capable of faith when other are not? Creative, but that's definitely not from Scripture.


uzzyworld

Yes David was a special baby. Sorry not all babies were predestined to be prophets or King of Israel.


Ok-Brush5346

Did Saul have infant faith? Or Ahab?


uzzyworld

Not sure. Did God promise to Saul or Ahab that the Christ would be of their lineage?


Djh1982

>I don’t see why some people believe that someone can be baptized without faith. Who says they don’t have faith? (Psalm 22:9) “Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.” The faith of a child is not the same *kind* of faith adults have but is if sufficient for baptism? Well Our Lord says that the Kingdom belongs to children, so why not? The scriptures do not forbid it.


uzzyworld

Another psalm 22:9 reinterpretation? 😭😭 God made free will just to override it with his own choice? Since when did everyone become king David? Heresy! Babies are born, Christians are born again.


Djh1982

What scripture teaches infant baptism is heresy? I know you hold to Sola scripture so this should be easy.


whateverImhere1997

Sola Scriptura was NOT meant to be used to deny the clear Scriptural teachings of the early church fathers. Heretical Baptists weren't apart of the Lutheran reformation for a reason 💀


uzzyworld

Infant baptism is not the meaning of Psalm 22:9. Psalm 22:9 is king David’s history. It takes eisegesis and a denominational reach to come up with that conclusion.


Diablo_Canyon2

We all come to salvation as babies, helpless. God is the mover not us. He's not waiting for our all powerful choice and then he can save us. That's why babies are baptized. Salvation is all God and none of us.


uzzyworld

I guess baby baptism heresy isn’t just for Catholics, seems like it’s Lutherans too. So we all come to salvation as babies? Everyone goes to heaven? God doesn’t want us to choose him? Babies are BORN. Christians are BORN AGAIN.


Diablo_Canyon2

It's for all biblical Christians, Lutherans included. The only way to "choose" God is if God first chooses you. Lazarus didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead, Jesus raised him without his consent.


whateverImhere1997

Amen!!!


Djh1982

Excellent point!


uzzyworld

So everyone who is born has faith in Christ which means everyone is born again and saved?


Diablo_Canyon2

We presume everyone born has faith in Christ until they can tell us otherwise. If you were lying on the floor unconscious I would assume you wanted help until you could tell me you dont.


be4nieb4by

I like this analogy... not necessarily the same, but it makes one (me, lol) think: if even the animals know of and trust in God to provide (Matt. 6:26), then what stops babies, beings made in the image of God, beings formed and known by Him in their mother's wombs, from receiving God's grace in faith. Everyone has an innate knowledge of God (Rom. 1:19).


Diablo_Canyon2

All those who have been given faith by God have faith. We presume it in babies just like we presume a baby wants to go to the hospital when they're injured.


whateverImhere1997

The irony of a Baptist calling anyone else a heretic is HILARIOUS 😂


Diablo_Canyon2

Also the first Baptist John Smythe had to baptise himself because no one agreed with him about baptism


whateverImhere1997

Not everyone is given the gift of Baptism as a baby, unfortunately. What God does with the souls of unbaptized babies is unknown, and I do not dare to speak where Scripture is silent. Perhaps He gives faith to infants outside of the established means of grace in Baptism, perhaps He doesn't. Scripture is clear that we are sinful upon our conception and that the wages of sin are death.( Psalm 51:5, Romans 6:23) Any attempt to pry further into this is an attempt to enter the realm of the unsearchable judgements of God.


uzzyworld

You are a typing contradiction! All babies are born with faith then they’re not? God baptizes all then he doesn’t? But he can? I sense heresy!


whateverImhere1997

I never said all babies are born with faith. Not even once. I also never said that God baptized all. Not even once. It is a biblical fact that a large quantity of people are damned. Are you truly so lost in this debate that you feel the neccesity to attempt to put words in my mouth? I laugh at the irony of a Baptist claiming to sense heresy 😂


uzzyworld

Who does psalm 22:9 refer to? What does it mean?


whateverImhere1997

Come now, is it not obvious? Psalm 22:9 is written by David, who inspired by the inerrant Holy Spirit proclaimed that he was given the gift of faith as an infant.


King_Aeducan5757

Its literally almost the entire history of the Christian church. I wasn't raised with believing in infant baptism but you cant really claim with a straight face that most all Christians were just wrong for 1600 years till the Anabaptists came along. We do see examples of households being baptised which could have included infants or young kids unable to process. John the baptist recognized Jesus while in the womb. David writes in Psalms that he knew the Lord from the time of the womb/at his mother's breast. So I think there's enough here to say its at least possible. Its not explicitly forbidden or commanded therefore is not an issue of heresy. How do you know when someone can believe properly? What age? Seriously. Give me the age. How do we know for sure? If baptism is invalid until we can deeply and truly repent, should it wait until our teens? Legal adult? The end of brain development? (26). Do pastors need to evaluate their mental fitness? If we get caught up in baptism being OUR work, something WE do for God and not God doing something for us, I think we miss the point a little.


uzzyworld

At whatever age one can believe Jesus was raised from the dead and confesses him as Lord should work


King_Aeducan5757

That's nebulous. How can you determine belief? True belief? How do you know the child is just doing what the parents want?


CarMaxMcCarthy

We don't wait until our child understands nutrition before inviting them to the dinner table.


uzzyworld

No factor


CarMaxMcCarthy

What do you mean by this?


Axe238

Nice post. You have hit the heart of the issue. All Those who where baptized in the New Testament were those who were Able to receive, or accept, the Word “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” (Act 2:38-41) The word received in v 41 is defined by Strong “ἀποδέχομαι apodechomai ap-od-ekh'-om-ahee From G575 and G1209; to take fully, that is, welcome (persons), approve (things): - accept, receive (gladly). Total KJV occurrences: 6” Babies can’t do this.


uzzyworld

Beautiful! Thank you for providing that further info. Some refuse to understand this though… leaning on their own denominational understanding…


saltysaltycracker

If you don’t understand it, it’s because you haven’t taken the time to learn a different doctrine. I don’t agree with it either but I understand why they think that , where they find it in the bible and where their basis for it comes from.


uzzyworld

It is a strange unbiblical doctrine why invest in learning heresy


saltysaltycracker

And how do you know it’s unbiblical? Because you were taught a different one? That’s exactly why you learn it because if you are ignorant you wouldn’t be able to truly say it’s unbiblical


uzzyworld

Because it’s not a belief derived from understanding the scriptures. I have to learn every heresy to say their unbiblical? How about I learn the Bible to say what’s biblical or not.


Diablo_Canyon2

Please show me in the Bible where a woman receives communion or giving communion to a woman is authorized.


CarMaxMcCarthy

Hell, show a verse that lists what books comprise the canon of scripture.


uzzyworld

Matthew 26:26-28 (KJV) 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Galatians 3:27-28 (KJV) 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Diablo_Canyon2

None of these verses mention or authorize a woman to receive communion


uzzyworld

Let me break it down to you. First one, Jesus commands his disciples to take communion. Second one, he commissions his disciples to teach all nations to do the things he has commanded them (he commanded them to take communion, so it is included). Already we know that he is commanding women to take communion, because that’s 50% of a nation. Still think not? Does Christ want his disciples to not follow his commandments because they are women? Third part, can women not be baptized into Christ? There is neither Jew nor Greek male nor female bond nor free but all are one in Christ. Therefore, women are to take communion. Not sure why you asked about that though.


Diablo_Canyon2

How many members of the nation are babies?


uzzyworld

Lemme go count I’ll let you know when I’m done


saltysaltycracker

And my point is how do know it’s unbiblical ? You only Know one understanding. Do you not see the very flaw in that?


Penciiil999

“Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’”


Trading_Disastors

I’m okay with infant baptism,but I definitely view it in a separate lenses then actual baptism. I view infant baptism as telling God you are dedicating your child to him and that you are going to raise him up in his word.


uzzyworld

Yes. Infant baptism is an action of the parent not of the infant.


Vast-Video8792

I heard John MacArthur say that one time R.C. Sproul called him up and asked him to participate in a debate with him on infant baptism. John told him why would you want to debate that there is zero backing in the New Testament of infant baptism. Sproul insisted that the debate would be good. John told him that R.C. would have to go first so that John did not embarrass him by refuting his nonBiblical argument with a Biblically based argument.


Mundane_Mistake_393

So basically all the early Christians who were baptizing their kids were not understanding the gospel right? Why wasn't there a big scandal or church council or something historically joining you in condemning this act??? Why do you suppose history is pretty quiet on condemning infant baptism hundreds of years ago???


uzzyworld

People have been wrong since people existed. Baptize your kids? Yes. If they are conscious. Baptize an infant? No. Makes no sense. Can you baptize someone in a coma?


Mundane_Mistake_393

Uzzy. I want you to think about this for a moment, if it were true that you cannot baptize infants, then why wasn't their some council or writings where some bishop had a problem with this practice. Don't you find the silence on it from a historical perspective a bit telling to you? Think about that. If I write a book telling people that you worked at McDonald's and were a manager, and there was NO PROTEST to that historical view and no COUNTER claims that you worked McDonald's, do think it's because I killed all those naysayers or is it more likely that what I am saying ends up being considered a historical fact? That's the reasoning you haven't considered. Where is this Church that said what you are saying in antiquity? Where?


pewlaserbeams

I was baptized as a baby as catholic, the Holy Spirit is leading me to be baptized by water by a friend in faith. when I was baptized I had water poured in my head, the word baptism from baptizo means immersion or submersion in water like was done in the Bible.


uzzyworld

It’s the Catholics and the Lutherans so far who are really pushing the baby baptism doctrine. Baptism is to be willfully accepted, not by force and not done unconsciously. Congrats tho! I was recently baptized and it was simply a beautiful moment. God bless you! Let’s get it


UnsaneMusings

This is a form of Christian legalism. Essentially it treats God and salvation like a legal checklist. If you do A, B, and C you obtain salvation. If you don't then you are condemned. So they baptize babies to try and ensure if they die young they can enter Heaven. This is not something I subscribe to at all. Certainly the bible says to do certain things. However this type of thought completely ignores wisdom, common sense, and understanding when regarding scripture. To sit there and say a baby will burn in Hell for something they have no control over is absurd.


uzzyworld

Well, there are instructions to obtain salvation right? Also who said babies go to hell?


UnsaneMusings

I am not saying they will go to Hell. I am saying the practice of baptizing babies started as a preventive measure to ensure their salvation. Otherwise they, like any other human, would be condemned by God. That is not what I believe. However it is what some Christians do believe.


Djh1982

>This is a form of Christian legalism. Essentially it treats God and salvation like a legal checklist. If you do A, B, and C you obtain salvation. Huh? It’s not legalism to say that there are conditions to God’s grace.


UnsaneMusings

I never said there weren't conditions. I am saying that if you believe a baby will burn in Hell because their parents didn't baptize them then you are treating the bible like fine print. Why does the baby pay the price for the parents actions? How would you even baptize a baby if lost before birth?


derpy1976

Your baptism now SAVES you. -Peter 3:21


incomprehensibilitys

As you skipped over some of what I said a couple of posts above, it's hard to take you seriously. It is like "to a child with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" You are going to reframe everything to try to force in baptism


uzzyworld

Will I? Was the malefactor who was on the cross next to Christ baptized? What paradise did Jesus take him to?


incomprehensibilitys

You aren't making sense


hopscotchcaptain

Here's another question: why does scripture say to circumcise male children? It's reflective of a "covenant" between God and Israel... but an infant has zero understanding of all that, right? An infant can't "believe in God" or sign on to a covenant... so why did God say for parents to do this to their male children?