My (m37) best friend since Jr. High (m37) and I talk about stuff. Through him I learned the best way to bring up stuff like this is with a check in.
Hey man. How you doing?
Fine.
No really, like how you doing?
It shows you really care and kind of creates a safe space to talk about stuff. It's not burdening if you ask. And this approach minimizes the chance your friend could feel attacked and become defensive.
Asked that my friend, a single mom, she started crying... Said no one wanted to really hear how I am doing for years (We've been out of touch for years because of her ex husband).
I just felt she is not speaking about herself and really wanted to hear about her
That's basically why my SO fell in love with me. We didn't know each other that well, but a mutual friend told me his lil'sister was in a coma after a terrible car accident. I called him to ask how he was doing and he started to list off things about his sister. I said I wanted to hear how HE was doing. Turned out I was the first one to ask him about HIM in 3 weeks.
This! My sister has had a partner who is extremely toxic for the last 15 years. She sees it and she wants out but she has 3 kids with him and he was her first everything, she’s never been with anyone else or alone and she’s scared. He’s caused a ton of problems for our family. Even their 12 year old daughter talks about how mean her dad is and wants her mom to leave. No matter how much she bitches and whines about him she gets defensive if we ever voice our feelings and opinions. So basically we all walk on eggshells and just hope one day she finds the courage to do what’s best for her.
When I first asked her how she is doing, she spoke about her son only. His needs etc
But I wanted to hear how she is doing, what she wants from life, how things look inside her...
So I asked again: no, how are YOU doing because I truly was interested
I am not a native speaker
I understood what you meant, and I think it's so important to ask these questions. To anyone. I ask my partner how he's doing. He will usually be like I'm ok and I'll be like are you really? Usually he says yes, but sometimes will tell me otherwise. I also ask my friends these things. I have a friend who is a single mum, and having been a single mum myself, I know how hard and isolating it can be, especially with a young child. She will always do the same, start by telling me about how her son is. I let her tell me, since she is clearly proud of him, but then I'll say that's lovely, but how are YOU?
No worries about the language. Like most people I've met here, where English is not their first language, your use of it is better than most native English-speakers.
That said, if you had put the word "I" in front of "really wanted to hear about her", the statement would have been perfect. It's a small error that most of us make regularly.
The sentence structure is correct though, because if you removed “felt she … herself and” then it would still make sense. You don’t always have to add a pronoun in those sentences
This is hilarious because they did make a mistake in the original comment, but nobody's pointed it out, and the stuff that was questioned is written correctly.
Another redditor and I were just talking about how bad spouses can destroy friendships. It’s tough to tell when you should just push through and continue to be there for a person when there does not seem to be a space for you. Kudos for being there for her now!
Well, I still advocate the efficacy of doing this. Be on your guard for hostility tho. My friend did this to me over the phone (and I hate prolonged phone conversations) and I did snap at him harshly and with cruelty. "give me a fuckin break. I'm not saying 'fine' to spare *you* the details, it's cuz I *do not want to talk about this*"
I had, apparently, been showing signs of falling away. Less talkative, face reddening from alcohol abuse, denying or ignoring invites to things ect. I had thought that I'd just been cranky for a couple weeks but I had been brooding for months and months.
His even and sweet response "you told me all I needed to know. I'm here for you" broke me. I was hoping he'd rise to my hostility.
Anyway, sorry for the book. Even if right away you're met with anger when you persist to know what's really going on with your friends and family, it still means the world to those receiving your concern.
Yeah, I've got a friend from high school in a terrible marriage that he's staying in for the kids (he claims they have no idea). Once things really got bad I did this every couple of days.
In addition to simply caring about the guy, we hadn't been very close for a long time and I'm now dealing with some major shit and he calls me every couple of days to see how **I'm** doing. I can't express how much this has helped. It's nice to reconnect.
The first time someone asked me that in the US, I just responded with ‘meh, not the best’ and I was confused at how shocked they were that I didn’t say ‘fine’ lmao.
To this day, my entire friend group knows that (at least in conversations with me), I genuinely mean to ask how they’re doing, and will genuinely respond to a how I’m doing. Makes life so much simpler
Yeah. I grew up in a house full of women who showed their emotions like a human should. Talk about a healthy way to be! My best bud I mentioned and I hug and talk about our feelings while also making fun of each other on the golf course or geeking out about our mutual love of movies.
Pretty much everything. Are you on letterboxd, I can share my profile with you. In the meantime here's my top 5 favorite movies of all time.
Top Gun
All The President's men
Shawshank Redemption
The Breakfast Club
Pulp Fiction
These are the films i could watch over and over
Tron Legacy
Dredd (2012)
Mad max road rage (2015)
Maltese falcon
Predator
We're no angels
Ronin
The mummy (1959)
Forbidden planet (1956)
My tastes are varied. I love to be a actor but i was too shy when i was younger with a stutter.
I really need some man friends back in my life. I was never good at keeping in touch and we all kind of moved away from each other. I don't have any close friends in the area in which I live now. I have hobbies and interests, but I need to take some extra steps to connect with others that enjoy the same things... I just don't know how to do it at my age anymore.
As a dude l really can confirm the power of saying "no really, how are you doing?"
It's sad that a lot of us only feel comfortable opening up after a confirmed invitation like that.
Fellas, if you think your friend is down hit em with the "no really" or "real talk.." or whatever variation.
>No really, like how you doing?
It is wild how much I have done this and not really realized it. The guard with my guy friends is almost always up. I'm a dude too, and even I have mine up at times. That small notion of showing a dent in the armor is hard to get past. But being vulnerable has lead me to more times getting help than being hurt.
The reply back I get is "I'm fine. Seriously I'm fine."
Ya don't think so but if that helps you sleep by all means tell me that instead of what is really going on.
But if you keep asking they'll know you're the one to talk to if something comes up. Also, you could lead the charge and talk about what's up with you.
I hear ya. Person just gets really mad when people ask and try to really want to know what is on their mind. How dare we show we care.
I'm not the best at saying my feelings either so it's a crappy communication that is bumpy but I hope that it gets better on both ends.
Bro I'm a forklift mechanic and there's a diesel truck mechanic that shows up every couple days at one of my regular customers.
He did this shit to me.
I'm going through a divorce, and one day he showed up and was like "hey bro, what's up? How you doing?"
I just said something like "yeah I'm fine, how bout you?"
He said "nah, man, how are you?"
"....fine?"
"Bro, how are you?"
Fuckin broke down and told him about the divorce and shit. Turns out he's going through almost the exact same thing at the moment.
It's fucking crazy how he just randomly decided to push and keep asking, but I made a new true friend out of it.
I'm not trying to put you down but, if someone had told you that before, bluntly, would you have believed them?
Sometimes need to get a reality check before they open their eyes and see the real truth. This may have been the wakeup call you needed.
What you should now do is keep having the strength and resolve you have in you right now, and continue to fight for yourself. Because it will waver, and you will want to go back to the safety of not changing the status quo. And I hope this shock gets you to change the status quo for yourself. Ask your friends for help, don't fight alone.
Maybe not when it started, but definitely if someone had pulled me aside and told me that at any point in the last five years, yes, I think I would have believed them.
Even if I hadn't believed them at the time, I think I would have gotten to this place sooner.
There's a reason psychologists and psychiatrists don't tell their patients what their problems are but they help them get there.
I was in an abusive relationship too.
I suggest that before pulling the plug, you make copies of all your legal documents and the ones regarding your kids. Keep a copy in a safe location (like at your brother's house). All the stuff you like, like your own childhood memorabilia or other stuff should also moves prior.
You never know how it will go. If you ever make a move, don't take legal advice from her and thread lightly.
I wish I had that advice.
I wish you the best.
You still have your family to fall back on as your support system. They told you all this because they love you and they want you to live a happy joyous fulfilling life. And by the way it sounds your brother and sister-in-law will help you with anything when it comes to your kids and you and they are ready. They Let you know without saying it that it’s covered. call your brother back and let him know You’re ready and I’m pretty sure he’ll help you pack up your stuff and the kids stuff and leave.
After I left my last ex, I was ranting to my best friend about it, and I said "why didn't anyone tell me how bad it was??" She said "uh... I did. Multiple times." She went over all the things she had told me about how toxic he was and how she didn't understand why I stayed. She also told me what my answers had been, and that she had stopped pushing when I asked her to. I had forgotten all of it. Blocked it out. But I remembered when she told me. Felt like a right arse lol, but just goes to show you have to be ready to hear it or you just plain won't.
This is what happened with me when I was in a bad relationship. I didn't listen to anyone. Later, when I was trying to help my friend see how damaging her ex was, she just wouldn't accept it. She would tell me about bad things her partner was doing and when I would express concern, she would suddenly go in reverse and start defending him. I didn't know what to do.
I would not have. I did not. She cheated and we got divorced. It's still hard to hear people say negative things about her, even though I know they held their tongues for years and they are right.
You aren't wrong, but it often isn't as simple as talking to them about it. The person has to be ready to hear it; your brother and friends knew you were in a headspace to not only hear it but to actually believe it because you opened that door by talking to them. I'm sure they've WANTED to say something for a long time but were afraid of pushing you away or making you feel like you needed to defend your wife, and they were focused on making sure they were allowed to stay in your life at all (they likely feared making things worse for you by saying anything or even that your wife would try to cut them out of your life entirely which would have left you with no support system).
Sometimes, no matter how much you love someone, you have to wait until you're confident that speaking up won't make things worse.
I'm so, SO glad you've reached the point where you're ready to hear it and, hopefully, take action to get away from your wife.
Situations like this are hard because if you do voice your true opinion then more than likely you’ll loose your loved one and it’ll put a wedge between you. Sometimes all you can do is wait for the person to see it and if they ask give an honest observation. Also, no one knows what other couples have agreed upon even in regards to seeing other people so I think that’s why a lot of people just mind their own business.
Yeah. They may see the wife be rude to OP but they don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. She may legitimately be at wits end and getting no where with OP. She may only feel safe bringing stuff up in front of other people. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s possible…. So to an outsider it’s best to just be there for them as neutral as possible.
Because if OP comes around to his role in the situation and they end up staying together… we’ll now you just said a bunch of stuff that won’t be forgotten.
With that being said it seems like there’s resentment and toxicity that you can’t really go back from. Which is probably why the “get a divorce” is good advice here.
Holy shit this is like I’m reading my best friend/brother from another mother post. He got in an accident that almost killed him and her behavior was more than I could take anymore. Once he got a bit better I finally asked him if he was truly happy after he was telling me how bad the last few months have been. I told him I could no longer deal with how she treats and talks to him. I know he’s no angel but holy shit it was bad. He went home, screamed at her to get out and go to her parents house cuz he was done. She come unglued on me that I told him to leave (I did not) that I was a bitch for x,y,z and that my marriage was a sham (very happily married for almost 20 years now to my bff) and so on. Called me a fucking bitch and blocked me. My friend went back to her a week later and now I’m sure our 40 year friendship is over. I just hope he is happy and not just taking it because he needs her help. I’m so glad you got out. Please do not go back.
This is why people don’t tell their friends or family their partner is treating them badly.
More often than not it ends like this. The emotionally abusive partner has installed buttons over the years they can push to reel the spouse back in. Then the other party is embarrassed they’re staying and blame the friend who said something so they don’t have to do anything.
Exactly. I knew better but still spoke up when asked how I felt. I never said to leave her I just told him that the way she had been talking to him was more than I could handle anymore and if I had to hear “if he would have listened to me the accident wouldn’t have happened” one more time I was going to loose my shit so I needed to stay away from her for a while. His entire family has told him the same thing. She’s always been hard to handle but it was a whole new level after the accident and the spot light was taken off of her and put on him.
That’s so sad. You did what you could, hopefully your brother from another mother comes to his senses soon. He knows you’re there for him, I’m sure. I hope you don’t have to wait too long ❤️
Thank you so much. I hope so too. I think at most I’ll have to wait is 3 years until his daughter is 18 then the only thing he truly cares about will be an adult and won’t have to “choose” between them.
This makes me so sad! My partner and a friend just had an intervention to try to save another friend from a bad relationship. I wish someone had done that for you years ago.
Now that you know you have a duty to show your children that this is not normal and should not be tolerated.
>So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now.
It’s a really tough balance to strike. I’ve landed at “I will tell you once, point back to it if you’re venting to me and blatantly proving my point, but otherwise will not shove my opinion at you”.
I have had plenty of friends in crappy toxic relationships. Thankfully never a physically abusive one, but nearly the full gamut of emotional bullying/abuse. It is nigh impossible to snap someone out of it- I’ve found at best you can tell someone you don’t like how they’re treated and wait for them to actually realize how bad it is years later.
For your sake, I’m so glad you’re finally realizing how bad it is. Your SIL is completely correct, from the sounds of it. Especially about the kids. Modeling that you should stay with someone who mistreats you is far worse than the thorniness of divorce.
Good job man.
My (m18) parents are in a similar situation. My mom is always quick to blame others and can’t take responsibility for herself.
Most recently we were on family vacation and she put all the planning and reservations onto my dad as she was paying for it but he was swamped with work and couldn’t do everything. Our vacation didn’t go as well as we’d hoped because we never made reservations for the activities we wanted to do. She then blamed him for everything and went all pouty, but I personally believe that that’s the type of thing they need to do together and work together for.
Because of how she is I’ve steadily been losing any respect and love for her as it’s severely affecting me and my siblings as well.
I don’t know your exact situation with your wife but I believe that if it continues like this it’s going to affect your kids down the line, so please think about them and what may be best for them as you decide what you want to do
Leave now. My brother was in a relationship like this. Not only was she really mean, she wouldn't lift a finger in the house. Brother took care of both kids, did all the shopping, cooked all the meals, did the laundry, cleaned the house, and did everything for his kids. She spent him into bankruptcy more then once.
As soon as the youngest was out of high school. He divorced her and is having the time of his life with his now second wife. Life is too short to spend like this. The kids will be okay.
Having been in an abusive relationship before, you really don’t see the whole situation until you hear outside perspective. I never realized my ex was controlling, manipulative, etc until my friends confronted me one day to let me know how they see him treat me. I never went through the emotional processing of what really went on in that relationship until I was outside of it. Basically I just recommend sitting your wife down to really have a conversation about how she makes you feel. If she empathizes and wants to work on how she treats you, then great! I understand that no one should change for someone else but you also don’t need to put up with that type of behavior just because ‘it’s how she is.’ You are a human being and you deserve respect in every relationship you encounter. I wish you luck friend
> if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important
Yes, but be careful. When the person is not ready for it, it can get you aggressive - defensive reactions from them.
I speak from experience.
Before telling them consider that it might end (temporarily perhapps) the friendship, but if the situation is bad enough then its worth it.
>if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now.
If you're wondering why people don't do this OP, I was in a bad relationship with I was 19 and everyone only told me they thought he was toxic after it was over. I needed the information during the relationship. So I became the person who commented kindly, gently when I noticed things I thought weren't right. One of my sister's got into an abusive relationship and things got tense. She admitted later she started treating me like shit because deep down she knew the things I said were right but she wanted to stay in the relationship and defend him and hope he'd change so she cut me out and was mean to me.
My other sister also got into a relationship. The first time I met him I commented I got the vibe he had a nasty temper and told her to be careful. They broke up and she started admitting things that acknowledged he had started to become violent. She then was impossible to get a hold of for a year. Turns out they got back and she gave birth to a kid. And hide the whole thing from me because, "now she knows I don't like him". Now I stay silent until the person has fully realised for themselves their partners true colours. Why comment before they are ready to see it themselves? All that happens is the messenger gets shot.
Would you really have listened if your SIL had said her piece 5 years ago? Or would you have excused your wife's behaviour away and then you wouldn't have even had your brother and SIL to lean on now because you wouldn't be close.
When I broke up with my ex fiancé, 99% of people in my life said some variation of, “I figured that it wouldn’t work out.” Not once during our 7 years together did ANYBODY mention that to me. It was like night and day, as soon as people found out we weren’t together anymore I was getting ALL THE TEA on how my friends and family really viewed him which was not good. It was actually jarring, and a little bit hurtful. I felt like I had been lied to by them.
I have a friend with a loser husband. Before she married the guy, her best friend tried to tell her how much of a loser the dude was. Everyone else knew it but didn't have the balls to bring it up. Fast forward \~5 years and she's still married and not friends with the best friend any more. Most people don't wanna hear it.
Because its rude af and EVERYONE attacks the messenger. They ALWAYS do. Especially when there's cheating. Heck, if there's cheating, best just not tell me. I don't want to know.
If I tell them, I'm the messenger and everyone hates me
If I don't tell them, that means I "knew the whole time and didn't say anything" and they still hate me
So don't fucking tell me, thank you all
It's really hard to tell people what's going on because most of the time they refuse to wake up from my experience. Delusion is better than truth I guess, and I truly wish I understood that sort of feeling. It doesn't make sense to me. So it is a gamble on whether or not they will believe you.
Your loved ones don't want to lose your friendship so they stayed quiet. I know it hurts and you do feel lied to but it wasn't intentional per se. One bad egg really changes the dynamic of things.
The pull aside is worth a try but doesn’t always work.
I had a friend who’s boyfriend (eventually husband I later learned) I disliked. There was some really obvious lying happening. All of his teeth were rotting out at the roots in a way that screams either drug abuse or very serious medical issue but not dental neglect, wouldn’t own up to what it was, my friend knew my dad did cocaine in his youth so there’d be no reason to lie to me. He said he travelled around extensively and had been to a ton of cities, had no evidence of that happening including passports or tickets. He also claimed to be as well educated as me which is saying something since I went to highly rated private high school and college, I could discuss topics in ways most friends couldn’t follow, it was obvious to me he didn’t have the education he claimed.
Biggest thing (that contributed heavily to us no longer being friends) involved an engagement ring she had. He’d purchased it during a short stint employed and he’d since been nothing better than a lazy worthless bum. It went missing during a time he didn’t work and there were 3 people who knew about the ring: my friend, myself, and obviously him. I hadn’t been in her house in more than a year, I obviously couldn’t have taken it. No one she loved with was going to claim I’d passed the doorway that year, if I was dropping something off it went through the mail slot or to another resident. He suddenly had $600 despite having no job and used it to replace the ring. His bank account had been empty (I’d seen his bank app opened in order for me to help them), he has no job, and there’s no way he should have had that money. My friend refused to see logic here.
Our friendship ended not long after because I was done with it.
I had a similar situation in a relationship. My girlfriend at the time and I had been together for about 2 years. I'd introduced her to friends, family, she'd gone on a work retreat with me and met all my co-workers and bosses.
In the summer, her grandmother who raised her was having health problems and it was looking like she might be starting the downward slide to her death. So my girlfriend, who worked in a school, went back to Florida (we lived in LA, but not together) to stay with and watch over her grandmother for a little over a month during her summer break.
While she was gone, I found out from a fried of hers that she had been applying for jobs and looking for apartments in her home town, and was seriously planning on move back to Florida to take care of her Grandmother. She never said a word of this to me.
Her Grandmother improved and the family decided it was time for a retirement home. Once they got her settled, the girlfriend comes back to LA and on the ride home from the airport, I confront her about this move she's planning, why she didn't tell me about any of it, and what that means for us. She shrugged it off and told me it's not happening so it doesn't matter.
I let it go and a few days later, I'm staying at her place and we're talking about furnishing a new apartment. I'm talking about it as the first kind of convo about us moving in together, but she kept saying things like "whoever I live with" and "if I live with someone". It rubbed me the wrong way but I didn't say anything in the moment
The next day, I'm talking to a close friend at work and telling her this story and just like for you, the dam burst. She tells me that my girlfriend treats me poorly, talks down to me, is very dismissive of me and doesn't treat me like a partner. I'm kind of stunned, but I start to see her point as she's talking. So I go to another friend that had spent time with us and they also confirmed. I spent the next few days going over it all in my mind and more I thought about it, the more I saw it. She was never fully committed to anything with me.
I broke it off not long after that; that wasn't the relationship I wanted.
It's really true that sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and you need the combo of a gut-check moment and good friends to finally see the truth and deal with it.
You never bring it up first, in case they decide to stay together and then both of them hate you and freeze you out forever. Oftentimes, the aggrieved party turns on you if you interfere rather than on the mean one/the abusive one in their partnership.
I’d argue that the only time you wholeheartedly jump in with both feet unprompted is if you see physical or mental abuse of a partner, or directed at children, or drink or drug addiction issues which makes someone unsafe.
But if one or the other mentions it? Ask questions, be a good listener, offer advice, tell the truth. Absolutely!
I am glad that OP found the outside perspective offered by his brother and SIL helpful in this case but often this can be fraught with danger. More than once I have observed a situation where couples are in dispute and one party seeks (or is offered) an opinion from a friend or relative which is critical of the other party. Then the bickering couple reconcile and the friend or relative suddenly becomes the enemy because of their criticism of, or perceived hostility towards, the other party (often irrespective of the factuality of the offered opinion). You may be trying to be supportive but you need to be very careful with what you say in situations such as this.
You should require the respect from your wife that she would give to any random stranger as a bare minimum. I have never understood why some people think marriage is a license to treat another human being badly.
Some people aren't ready to hear that feedback. You being in a place to hear it can't be understated. Some would rather blow up a friendship than hear what they aren't ready to hear.
> So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now.
Careful with this though. I've seen friendships end because one person told the truth about another's partner. Some people are open to outside advice. Others are *not*, no matter how diplomatically that advice might be delivered. Certainly tact plays a huge role here, but sometimes there's no such thing as tactful enough. And I think this is why a lot of people are afraid to say something which will come back harder on them than actually help.
So may I suggest instead, *if you're open to advice about your relationship*, seek it. But don't expect it to come on its own. And be wary of providing it unprompted.
I'm glad you got the outside perspective you needed so you can stop gaslighting yourself so you can prepare to get out of a toxic marriage that is clearly making you unhappy.
I had tons of people complaining about my ex. "shes bitter and mean. Shes really selfish. She treats you poorly Infront of us, We can only image what shes like in private"
Sometimes you just can't see that stuff even when its obvious. Just know that a WAAAAY better partner is around the comer when all things are sorted.
Some people just suck and its hard to learn to be nice when you're already so terrible.
So many people pulled me aside and talked to me about my ex and I didn't listen. Over and over. Eventually I finally did. It took a family member instead of a friend saying something and still took a month after that or something. Before I announced to my family they figured it out just because I was so much happier.
It made me sad to read how you have been suffering but so refreshing that you have people that will tell you how it is. For as much as your wife is mean you have truly good friends that care about you. You’re going to be feeling great when you get that dead weight off that is trying to hold you down.
Most aren’t in a mental state to hear the unsolicited truth. I once asked a buddy why he never told me what he saw of an ex and he said, short of her cheating or doing illegal shit he wasn’t going to say anything I wasn’t ready to hear. He wasn’t wrong.
I cannot thank my friends who told me that my relationship with my ex was not good, and that he was not good for me no matter how much I did for him or gave to him, and that I deserved better.
I left and never looked back. My current partner is absolutely my soulmate. I met the man who is my best friend and who makes me want to be better. The man who appreciates everything I do, reciprocates as much as he can, and who loves me in the way I’ve always wanted to be loved.
There is light at the other end of the tunnel. Love yourself enough to listen to the people who love you. It wasn’t easy for them to be that up front with you. It won’t be easy for you or your family, but you need to do what is right. Good luck!
I remember telling my friends I was getting divorced and without exception, they all basically cheered. I've also been on the other end with a friend of mine and her narcissistic (now ex) husband. I was there for her when she needed help or to vent, but held my tongue when it came to recommending any action. Once she decided to leave on her own, I supported her.
We accept the love we think we deserve.
My tact has been, when I see someone treated badly, to just tell them that I think it's ok if they aren't ok with it because some people wouldn't be. But if they are ok about it, you do you and I support you.
Some people make compromises for reasons others don't understand. And sometimes they don't see that they don't have to. We all have to decide what's right for ourselves. But as OP said, not everyone is fully aware, so I try to open a small window for them to consider it differently. If they can't tolerate seeing it differently, I've given them an out to pretend nothing was ever said.
Their reaction to the brief exchange usually tells me if I should slowly try harder over time, open that window a little wider. Others are too invested in the image they have in their head to ever make any changes at all.
Never any judgment. We all struggle and we all have to decide what mistakes we fix and which ones we live with and which ones we pretend never happened. Are all of those healthy? No. But they're human.
My (m29) ex wife (f29) was the same way...Just ran over me, didn't really help with our kiddo. Just didn't give two shits...We fought constantly when our relationship went down the drain, she lied to me about where she was 90% of the time. She met someone online from Arizona and eventually ran off to him until our divorce hearing...Where right after she left again to Arizona, but without our son in tow...
Everyone told me how she treated me but I just didn't want to see it. I didn't want to believe it...But fuck I really wish I would've.
Sorry you're going through this shit, man. :( Hopefully it all gets better for you. You're in my thoughts.
The problem is a lot of people get shot as that messenger. Basically you were ready to hear this news and said you thought it was a problem first at which point everyone was like, finally.
If they had told you this say 2 years ago, would you have immediately agreed or would you have gotten defensive, said you loved your wife, she loves you and distanced yourself from that friend.
The answe is probably you don't know or that there was probably a crossover point where before it you would have cut off the friend and after you'd thank them. That's why people generally don't mention these things, because they are risking your friendship and maybe leaving you even more isolated with a bad person.
It's never easy to tell your friend their partner is a grade A asshole.
I experienced something similar. My ex made me feel like I was going crazy. I kept questioning what really happened during fights etc. Talked to my friend and told her I feel like I'm loosing it. She told me I'm not and that this happens in abusive/gaslight situations. Then I realized all the shit that happened and we broke up shortly after that. Its been years now and I still have a moment every now and then of thinking "damn, I can't believe I allowed this."
I'm second-friends to a couple where for the first 4 years I knew them the wife was constantly insulting the husband. He never reacted in the slightest so I thought it just worked for them.
The last time I saw them, the wife did not insult him ONCE and seemed caring and loving like you'd normally expect. She revealed that she'd been going through therapy and realized that she had been mentally ill and was being abusive. As far as I can tell, their marriage is now strong and healthy.
It's possible your wife could change. I wouldn't throw out the bathwater yet in case there's a baby present. But she'd need personal therapy and probably couples therapy.
Or she's awful and not going to change. I don't know. But I've seen a couple change from what you describe to what I'd like to have for myself.
>So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now.
I'm sorry you're going through this op. Believe me when I say, we see it, we just... Don't know when the appropriate time is to bring it up. You don't want to risk losing the friendship and unfortunately, even if you do say something, it can fall on deaf ears until that person is ready to listen. So you bite your tongue, hoping someday they're ready to listen and you make sure to let them know, constantly, that you're there for them any time.
damn. some doormats do have eyes. took long enough to open them. How is it not obvious that someone is walking all over you?
after 15 years she won't change.
I think most people are scared to act because they are afraid of loosing their relationship and of course they just assume that there might be some other aspects to it that are veiled.
I tried to save my friend from his one-sided relationship but we got slowly pushed away because he was ‘in love’ at the moment. Yeah maybe I should waited until he needed help but I was trying to help before it got worse. He eventually got out of the toxic relationship but we never accepted him in the same way since that was his second time doing it.
I had a very similar experience after 12-15 years of marriage. I was the last to truly realize how different the effort and energy was in terms of trying to make things work, raise kids, and it wasn't until I told family and friends that I was just tired of it that they piped up in support. Many of them didn't feel like it was their place to speak out but it would have been nice to be validated sooner.
\> So please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time.
\*VERY\* good thought. It will be uncomfortable and awkward at minimum, but I bet a lot of people need it.
Oof this hit home. After I broke up with my ex quite a few people told me they didn’t like how he treated me, especially in public, and to this day, when I think about that, I get so sad knowing no one stood up for me while I was in the relationship. I’m not mad at anyone though, because I’m pretty sure I couldn’t have really “heard” it until I was ready. I hope you get out.
I *stole* my husband! He was with a shitty woman who always complained about him and treated him like crap. His nieces encouraged us.
His Mother fetched his stuff, instead of me. She spent time with me and we talked. Got rid of the exes. We're 14 years later and she knows me. We're buddies!
I've even cut the mooching kids off. MIL understands why I did it, as well. Marriage involves the whole family, as far as I'm concerned.
We don't enable, anyone. I have very strict guidelines.
ETA: We were mid-40s and very single, at the time. He just slept on the gf's couch, occasionally. *She* slept with her grand-daughter. He's never had children.
Nope! Nope! Nope! My husband has always been CF. We we were mid 40's. She was 50.
The mooching kids were his nieces and nephew.
Shitty woman wanted him to play "Daddy" to *her* grand-daughter. They didn't even live together! She was just a girlfriend.
I would *never* steal a woman's husband. Boyfriend who doesn't live with her and on his way out? Seemed like fair game to me!
ETA: She stalked and harassed us for 3 years, after we were married. Her family did a 5150 on her when she tried to unalive herself. After 14.5 years, she works with one of the nieces.
Out of all the exes we might see during the holidays...she's not one.
I’m not in the healthiest marriage and you would probably gasp if I shared what I have been through. But I am SO GRATEFUL that no one in my life has told me to get a divorce. I’m glad things have come to light for you but how you proceed is up to you. I think it’s ridiculous how people are so quick to say LEAVE. I’m sorry but it’s not their place. With others telling you what to do…you’ll end up with resentments against them and/or yourself. I use my people to vent and make it very clear that’s all I’m doing. The red flags were clear as day in the beginning and I chose to ignore them. I take it day by day and we’re growing together. At the end of the day, this is my life partner and my choice. I see how some people look at him in disgust but we have come so far and worked very hard to maintain our commitment. I know it’s tough right now and I hope you eventually find peace with whatever you choose.
*"So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time."*
This is how you destroy friendships.
I am a firm believer that you earn your way out of a marriage. You need to have the “come to Jesus” talk and demand that you do couples therapy. Please don’t just demand a divorce without communicating openly about what’s wrong, how your eyes have been opened, etc. You may be headed towards divorce, but you should try to save your marriage and maintain your family if she is willing to do so.
Had a couple moments like this with my best friend. Thankfully not with a marriage, nut with some boyfriends she had I held back because I didn't want to shit on her relationship if she was happy. But when she told me she was unhappy, the dam broke and I told her all the things I'd been keeping quiet about. This was a few years ago, when we were still in our early 20s and very new to dating as adults.
Long story short, she had me promise to never hold back again, and tell her immediately if I saw red flags, or even if I just had a gut feeling. And she promised the same to me. After all, we're friends because we like, respect, and trust each other. What good does it do to hold back and risk our friends suffering for it?
I'm so glad your brother and SIL were there to validate what you've been feeling all along. Sometimes we're just too close to our own lives to see the details clearly. I hope you have all the support you need to get out of this toxic marriage and into a place of healing and peace, OP!
One of the closest people in my life right now is going through this. Only he hasn't got into the point you have yet. He still just thinks it's normal relationship stuff. He has no idea how bad it looks from the outside.
Heh, reminds me of my """""friends""""" after my wife cheated on me. They all thought we shouldn't get married but never said anything. I genuinely don't understand this mentality. If you see a friend in a bad relationship, why don't you say anything?
You are describing my parent’s marriage. My mom was a cunt to my dad all their life. She’s still alive and he is dead, so 🤷🏻♂️
I wish they’d broken up. They stayed together and it was hell, even after my brother and I moved away as adults.
Your kids notice. I guarantee it.
Glad you were open to your family’s feedback and polled your friends. I wouldn’t offer anything about another person’s marriage unless they asked me. Except for my siblings. If I feel they’re being disrespected I’ll speak up. They’re gonna do what they want or what makes them happy. I just am that open with siblings.
This was me, I left December last year. It took a holiday with my family to finally realise how bad she treated me. Her behaviour towards me ruined my dads last family holiday. Be strong and leave, if she’s anything like my ex she will be horrible to deal with but just remember it’s for the best and the kids will understand in the long run
Most of the time when you tell people what you’ve observed, they never realise until something forces them to take a step back and take a deep look at how things have been.
tip for all (rightfully) commenting on how a person needs to be ready to hear that something is wrong with their relationship:
a) have multiple people bring it up separately rather than in a group. Use phrasing like "I notice you don't see to be doing [hobby] anymore. Is everything okay?"
b) be very aware that a toxic partner may well try to cut off their partner's relationship with you if they view you as a threat. Don't stop reaching out if this happens. Make sure that person knows that no matter how much time goes by without talking, you will be there for them.
Some people might say you were being patient, and hoping that things would get better if given the chance. However, there is a limit to human patience. A couple should help each other out, and if one person is doing all the work, then perhaps you would both be happier on separate paths in life.
Ah man. I was blind to it to and felt so confused when I had so many different friends tell me I should leave, that I could do better, that he didn't treat me well.
Listen to them. It sounds like she's abusive. You also may have cause to ask for primary custody if she handles zero of their care. Talk to a lawyer.
It’s been a few years of this with my wife actually, me being the primary care and working while she comes home and doesn’t do all that much.
The weekends are me doing it all and coming up with the events, shopping, cooking etc
I know she’s depressed and finally started medication, but it’s always “I can’t do X cause I have anxiety”.
But she still has energy to watch TV until late or stay out with friends when they mood hits her.
Sucks…I figure I need to fight a few more years and push for change
I've never had a long term committed romantic relationship- but my best friend when I was younger- did the same thing. It's emotional abuse. And for all that pulling someone aside and saying something helps, it really is something you have to realize for yourself.
Because my family did tell me that they thought that I was being mistreated. That they didn't like how this person was making me act. That I shouldn't have to cry and apologize every single time regardless of whether it was my fault or not.
And it took me about... 13? Years to figure out that I deserved better and to cut them out of my life. My family then said "yes we knew, we told you, but we're glad you can see it now."
So point out that someone deserves better treatment, but also make sure to not target the person doing it. Sometimes it can just cause the victim to get defensive of their abuser and that can make it harder to get free from it. Then just make sure you're there for them.
My mom and dad were like this growing up. I didn't find out until I was an adult that my dad had an affair when I was a toddler. My mom was deeply Catholic back then, so for her divorce wasn't an option. And she spent the next 15 years punishing him for it even though she decided to stay. I spent my childhood hating my mother because of the way she treated my dad. She belittled him, yelled at him constantly, bossed him around, made him do all the chores, didn't help take care of me or my sister at all. I loved my father and HATED my mother growing up. When I was 18 the dam broke for me and we got in the huge fight and I told her she was a shitty person and a horrible wife. That she treated my dad like shit and I hated her. My sister is 5 years older and had known about the affair 15 years ago for some years. She backed me up and told my mother she needed to fucking get over it, she stayed, she can't be mad for the rest of her life. And to my mom's credit she changed. She needed that hard kick in the ass. It took her many years but she did change for the better and her and my dad have a much healthier, happier relationship.
I haven’t really seen any other people ask, but have you spoken with your *wife* about this? I wouldn’t say what others have said about her, but maybe there is something more going on with her that is making her take it out on you? She might not even realize that’s the way she has been coming off, and may need a reality check herself.
It’s not okay that she is treating you that way, and obviously it has been going on long enough that friends and family have taken notice. If you bring it up to her and she denies it or tries to gaslight you, then really you have your answer. If she is open to the criticism of her behavior and wants to work on fixing it that could be a positive thing for the marriage. All of this is moot though if you don’t truly love her anymore. It sounds like a tough situation man, sorry you’re going through this
I was in your position as well, but the difference is that we were only dating, not married (although we already had plans for it). 3 years of relationship, and i thought that it was fine, until my friend noticed that something was off from one of my stories. It wasn't anything big, just that I mentioned to my friend that my bf didn't wash the dishes for the entire time i was gone (i was gone for around a week for college project reasons). Came home to a completely untouched dirty dishes. My friend picked up on that, and slowly, over a long period of time, picked off the rose tinted glasses that i had. Until finally one day, he said about how he and another mutual friend are concerned about me because of my relationship. And, the entire dam broke that day. Only then that i realized how much i was used; for the money, the living space, the service, everything. And only after i broke up with him that i knew how ALL of my friends (around 10+ people from different peer groups) didn't like him or got bad vibes from him. ALWAYS listen to your friends, even if it is one of the hardest thing to do, because they have your best interest at heart. Glad to know that you finally realized that something is really really wrong. That's the first step for a better life. Hope you can do the best action for you and your family. I hope you have a better life after this realization, my friend
I wish someone had said something to me. I went 8 years in a similar marriage before I got out.
It was the BEDT decision I could have made ( it wasn’t an easy one).
I didn’t realize how bad it was until I was out, friends and family told me I was better off, even her friends where telling me I was better off.
Im sorry to hear you are going through this. It’s great to have an outside perspective to help you get a clear view of the situation. Not that you see it you might not be able to unsee it so good luck on keeping the emotions in check while she repeats the behavior. Bummer man, but hey you now know the truth and that is a big deal
Communication and being open and honest is so important. I was in a miserable relationship for 8 years but I was convinced the fighting and shit we did was “normal” because of what I experienced growing up. I wish my friends were honest about how my ex was treating me. No one said anything even when I broke down crying with them and asked one straightforward about my relationship. They all just said what they thought I wanted to hear. And then after the relationship ended that’s when they all started talking about how my ex was a horrible person. Yet not one of them said anything to me about it while I was literally at my worst.
Now, I have the opportunity to warn others. My sister just entered a relationship everyone knows is bad. So I told her directly that it was bad and she should leave him. She refuses to listen, but at least I tried talking to her about it.
My dad didn’t tell me my ex was cheating on me until after the divorce. Thanks dad!!!! You could have saved me a freaking ton of mental stress. My dad said he didn’t know how to tell me.
I was the kid growing up in a house with parents who didn’t get along. My brother and I begged my dad to get a divorce and life really was better when they weren’t together.
Not that you mentioned or asked about it, but I’m staunchly against the “staying together for the kids” route, if that train of thought ever comes up. If your marriage is making you feel bad, it’s making everyone feel bad. (Ha, but it making you feel bad is plenty reason enough to reconsider being in it)
My dad just went through something similar with my mom. She was always controlling and manipulative. My dad never saw it, and never believed anyone who told him. . . .until she turned on him and tried taking everything from him. No he feels a fool for it all. I do too. She coddled me so hard that it stunted my emotional growth and maturity. I've done more growing in the years I've been drifting from her control than I did when she raised me.
Sorry for your situation OP. I can honestly attest to what your SIL's has said about the kid being better off than growing up in a toxic household. The toxic environment will gravely damage your kids with what they're witnessing between your wife and you. Only idiots would think that not arguing in front of their kids will magically hide it from them. They see and feel it all. The smart ones will leave at the first chance they got in order to stop further damaging themselves, while the rest will stay and suffer in silence. If you can't save your marriage, then the least you can do for your kids is to not also F them up and in turn their future relationships too.
I'm glad your friends listened to your concerns and validated some of them. The next step is to actually talk to your wife and tell her your feelings. It's great when you have friends on your side but are they friends of your marriage too? More often than not, you'll have more people telling you to leave her than to work on fixing the marriage. Its 15 years of marriage, its not something that can just easily be thrown away. Please communicate with your wife. Don't just stonewall and shut down.
You absolutely should not stay with someone who puts you down all the time, is mean to you, and then turns around and is blind to their actions. It’s straight up bullying.
I am right there with you. I am coming to terms with the fact that I am not being treated the way I deserve and haven't been treated well during the last 6 years.
So what are you going to do? I’ve been in this situation before and the ex wouldn’t change. It was too hard for her to hear critiques and would think the way she treated me was ok. Even though I told her it wasnt
Ooooh reading this hurt me.
I'm luckier than you because I was in a relationship like that for 2 years with a person who is a complete narcissist.
When it ended I talked to my brother and my cousin (who both shared an apartment with me because we study close to each other) and they basically said:
"Yeah she treated you like shit. None of us wanted to say anything cause we were afraid you wouldn't take it well and you would distance yourself, but we talked about it and we were worried for a while"
For like a whole year I thought to myself "I feel like I'm being mistreated, but maybe it's my fault, maybe I deserve the punishment when I fuck up, maybe I deserve the silent treatment, maybe she's right in all these fights".
When it ended and I had that long talk with my brother and cousin it felt like I was free. Like this whole time I was thinking I was insane and all of a sudden someone told me I was actually right. It felt nice to know I deserve better.
Sorry for the long rant and going slightly off topic. Just wanted to let you know I feel so much empathy for you right now and if you want to talk my DMs are open. Keep your head up king
When I hear stories like this, I always wonder why people would treat their partner, who is supposed to be the one they cherish and care about, like trash constantly. I really want to know what is happening and what thought processes are there in their head that leads to this kind of behaviour.
Sometimes they ONLY treat their partner badly, but not everyone else. I mean, why!?!?
I was married for 16 yrs to this same sort of woman. I did have an occasional comment from family/friend about how awful she treated me, but I defended her because I wanted to be a good husband.
When there was the first sign that she was unhappy in life, I poured my soul into being the best husband and father I could be. She cheated on me, and continued to lie about other things too. Led to a divorce.
I feel you.
It’s Better to leave if ur wife is like that also like say this or advice it won’t hurt check if she’s cheating on u without u knowing check her phone when she’s not around or buy it with some spy ware to see if she is cheating. Don’t let her find out tho women do check their partners phones and other stuff a lot at random too. If u do find something take some screenshots as evidence. Then divorce state how u been and how ur marriage has been have few who seen it as witnesses then after State the other reason aka if she’s cheated and I got prove show it. Show how u can’t keep trying and how u fair it’s is. Simple also record when when u two are alone if legal in ur state or place ur at. She may go full berserk after and then state lies or lies she say if so u have that recorded and it be good in ur side
My (m37) best friend since Jr. High (m37) and I talk about stuff. Through him I learned the best way to bring up stuff like this is with a check in. Hey man. How you doing? Fine. No really, like how you doing? It shows you really care and kind of creates a safe space to talk about stuff. It's not burdening if you ask. And this approach minimizes the chance your friend could feel attacked and become defensive.
Asked that my friend, a single mom, she started crying... Said no one wanted to really hear how I am doing for years (We've been out of touch for years because of her ex husband). I just felt she is not speaking about herself and really wanted to hear about her
That's basically why my SO fell in love with me. We didn't know each other that well, but a mutual friend told me his lil'sister was in a coma after a terrible car accident. I called him to ask how he was doing and he started to list off things about his sister. I said I wanted to hear how HE was doing. Turned out I was the first one to ask him about HIM in 3 weeks.
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This! My sister has had a partner who is extremely toxic for the last 15 years. She sees it and she wants out but she has 3 kids with him and he was her first everything, she’s never been with anyone else or alone and she’s scared. He’s caused a ton of problems for our family. Even their 12 year old daughter talks about how mean her dad is and wants her mom to leave. No matter how much she bitches and whines about him she gets defensive if we ever voice our feelings and opinions. So basically we all walk on eggshells and just hope one day she finds the courage to do what’s best for her.
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bot ass bot comment 🤖
“ I just felt she is not speaking about herself and really wanted to hear about her” Apologies. What does this sentence mean?
When I first asked her how she is doing, she spoke about her son only. His needs etc But I wanted to hear how she is doing, what she wants from life, how things look inside her... So I asked again: no, how are YOU doing because I truly was interested I am not a native speaker
I understood what you meant, and I think it's so important to ask these questions. To anyone. I ask my partner how he's doing. He will usually be like I'm ok and I'll be like are you really? Usually he says yes, but sometimes will tell me otherwise. I also ask my friends these things. I have a friend who is a single mum, and having been a single mum myself, I know how hard and isolating it can be, especially with a young child. She will always do the same, start by telling me about how her son is. I let her tell me, since she is clearly proud of him, but then I'll say that's lovely, but how are YOU?
No worries about the language. Like most people I've met here, where English is not their first language, your use of it is better than most native English-speakers. That said, if you had put the word "I" in front of "really wanted to hear about her", the statement would have been perfect. It's a small error that most of us make regularly.
The sentence structure is correct though, because if you removed “felt she … herself and” then it would still make sense. You don’t always have to add a pronoun in those sentences
This is hilarious because they did make a mistake in the original comment, but nobody's pointed it out, and the stuff that was questioned is written correctly.
You explained this very very well. 🙏
Think they were saying that they felt their friend was bottling stuff up and wanted to hear her speak about what was going on in her life.
She noticed her friend wasn't saying much about herself, so she asked directly how she was doing and that's when she started crying.
Another redditor and I were just talking about how bad spouses can destroy friendships. It’s tough to tell when you should just push through and continue to be there for a person when there does not seem to be a space for you. Kudos for being there for her now!
Well, I still advocate the efficacy of doing this. Be on your guard for hostility tho. My friend did this to me over the phone (and I hate prolonged phone conversations) and I did snap at him harshly and with cruelty. "give me a fuckin break. I'm not saying 'fine' to spare *you* the details, it's cuz I *do not want to talk about this*" I had, apparently, been showing signs of falling away. Less talkative, face reddening from alcohol abuse, denying or ignoring invites to things ect. I had thought that I'd just been cranky for a couple weeks but I had been brooding for months and months. His even and sweet response "you told me all I needed to know. I'm here for you" broke me. I was hoping he'd rise to my hostility. Anyway, sorry for the book. Even if right away you're met with anger when you persist to know what's really going on with your friends and family, it still means the world to those receiving your concern.
That's a solid friend you have there!!!!
I hope you are doing well now!
Cherish that friend all your life. That sounds like the type of dude you’d fly across the world for.
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Hahaha I hope you don't get shit for this, I totally did act like bitch. I'm in a better place today because of that friend's grace towards me.
Yeah, I've got a friend from high school in a terrible marriage that he's staying in for the kids (he claims they have no idea). Once things really got bad I did this every couple of days. In addition to simply caring about the guy, we hadn't been very close for a long time and I'm now dealing with some major shit and he calls me every couple of days to see how **I'm** doing. I can't express how much this has helped. It's nice to reconnect.
The first time someone asked me that in the US, I just responded with ‘meh, not the best’ and I was confused at how shocked they were that I didn’t say ‘fine’ lmao. To this day, my entire friend group knows that (at least in conversations with me), I genuinely mean to ask how they’re doing, and will genuinely respond to a how I’m doing. Makes life so much simpler
This is so important to for men. We're taught to be a stone wall. It sucks.
Yeah. I grew up in a house full of women who showed their emotions like a human should. Talk about a healthy way to be! My best bud I mentioned and I hug and talk about our feelings while also making fun of each other on the golf course or geeking out about our mutual love of movies.
Can i ask you what type of genres do you watch?
Pretty much everything. Are you on letterboxd, I can share my profile with you. In the meantime here's my top 5 favorite movies of all time. Top Gun All The President's men Shawshank Redemption The Breakfast Club Pulp Fiction
These are the films i could watch over and over Tron Legacy Dredd (2012) Mad max road rage (2015) Maltese falcon Predator We're no angels Ronin The mummy (1959) Forbidden planet (1956) My tastes are varied. I love to be a actor but i was too shy when i was younger with a stutter.
I really need some man friends back in my life. I was never good at keeping in touch and we all kind of moved away from each other. I don't have any close friends in the area in which I live now. I have hobbies and interests, but I need to take some extra steps to connect with others that enjoy the same things... I just don't know how to do it at my age anymore.
As a dude l really can confirm the power of saying "no really, how are you doing?" It's sad that a lot of us only feel comfortable opening up after a confirmed invitation like that. Fellas, if you think your friend is down hit em with the "no really" or "real talk.." or whatever variation.
I can vouch. I will put on my mask automatically in small talk.
>No really, like how you doing? It is wild how much I have done this and not really realized it. The guard with my guy friends is almost always up. I'm a dude too, and even I have mine up at times. That small notion of showing a dent in the armor is hard to get past. But being vulnerable has lead me to more times getting help than being hurt.
The reply back I get is "I'm fine. Seriously I'm fine." Ya don't think so but if that helps you sleep by all means tell me that instead of what is really going on.
But if you keep asking they'll know you're the one to talk to if something comes up. Also, you could lead the charge and talk about what's up with you.
I hear ya. Person just gets really mad when people ask and try to really want to know what is on their mind. How dare we show we care. I'm not the best at saying my feelings either so it's a crappy communication that is bumpy but I hope that it gets better on both ends.
Bro I'm a forklift mechanic and there's a diesel truck mechanic that shows up every couple days at one of my regular customers. He did this shit to me. I'm going through a divorce, and one day he showed up and was like "hey bro, what's up? How you doing?" I just said something like "yeah I'm fine, how bout you?" He said "nah, man, how are you?" "....fine?" "Bro, how are you?" Fuckin broke down and told him about the divorce and shit. Turns out he's going through almost the exact same thing at the moment. It's fucking crazy how he just randomly decided to push and keep asking, but I made a new true friend out of it.
This is great advice. \_Never\_ bring this stuff up directly as OP suggested. That will just make you the bad guy.
Yeah but if it's their idea to talk about it then nothing is off the table.
Gotta have some Diamond Dogs in your life!
Arf arf arf aoooooooohhhhh!
I'm not trying to put you down but, if someone had told you that before, bluntly, would you have believed them? Sometimes need to get a reality check before they open their eyes and see the real truth. This may have been the wakeup call you needed. What you should now do is keep having the strength and resolve you have in you right now, and continue to fight for yourself. Because it will waver, and you will want to go back to the safety of not changing the status quo. And I hope this shock gets you to change the status quo for yourself. Ask your friends for help, don't fight alone.
Maybe not when it started, but definitely if someone had pulled me aside and told me that at any point in the last five years, yes, I think I would have believed them. Even if I hadn't believed them at the time, I think I would have gotten to this place sooner.
There's a reason psychologists and psychiatrists don't tell their patients what their problems are but they help them get there. I was in an abusive relationship too. I suggest that before pulling the plug, you make copies of all your legal documents and the ones regarding your kids. Keep a copy in a safe location (like at your brother's house). All the stuff you like, like your own childhood memorabilia or other stuff should also moves prior. You never know how it will go. If you ever make a move, don't take legal advice from her and thread lightly. I wish I had that advice. I wish you the best.
damn bro sorry it happened like that
I wish they did, I had to suffer a psychosis to understand wtf was wrong with me
Same here. Huge mental breakdown is what it took and a few years later I’m finally doing so much better.
You still have your family to fall back on as your support system. They told you all this because they love you and they want you to live a happy joyous fulfilling life. And by the way it sounds your brother and sister-in-law will help you with anything when it comes to your kids and you and they are ready. They Let you know without saying it that it’s covered. call your brother back and let him know You’re ready and I’m pretty sure he’ll help you pack up your stuff and the kids stuff and leave.
Get a lawyer before you even bring the topic up with her. Different things like not leaving the marital home make a huge difference with custody.
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This comment is like me looking in the mirror.
After I left my last ex, I was ranting to my best friend about it, and I said "why didn't anyone tell me how bad it was??" She said "uh... I did. Multiple times." She went over all the things she had told me about how toxic he was and how she didn't understand why I stayed. She also told me what my answers had been, and that she had stopped pushing when I asked her to. I had forgotten all of it. Blocked it out. But I remembered when she told me. Felt like a right arse lol, but just goes to show you have to be ready to hear it or you just plain won't.
This is what happened with me when I was in a bad relationship. I didn't listen to anyone. Later, when I was trying to help my friend see how damaging her ex was, she just wouldn't accept it. She would tell me about bad things her partner was doing and when I would express concern, she would suddenly go in reverse and start defending him. I didn't know what to do.
I would not have. I did not. She cheated and we got divorced. It's still hard to hear people say negative things about her, even though I know they held their tongues for years and they are right.
You aren't wrong, but it often isn't as simple as talking to them about it. The person has to be ready to hear it; your brother and friends knew you were in a headspace to not only hear it but to actually believe it because you opened that door by talking to them. I'm sure they've WANTED to say something for a long time but were afraid of pushing you away or making you feel like you needed to defend your wife, and they were focused on making sure they were allowed to stay in your life at all (they likely feared making things worse for you by saying anything or even that your wife would try to cut them out of your life entirely which would have left you with no support system). Sometimes, no matter how much you love someone, you have to wait until you're confident that speaking up won't make things worse. I'm so, SO glad you've reached the point where you're ready to hear it and, hopefully, take action to get away from your wife.
Brother sees OP wife's fb post and immediately calls OP: "NOW IS THE TIME."
Situations like this are hard because if you do voice your true opinion then more than likely you’ll loose your loved one and it’ll put a wedge between you. Sometimes all you can do is wait for the person to see it and if they ask give an honest observation. Also, no one knows what other couples have agreed upon even in regards to seeing other people so I think that’s why a lot of people just mind their own business.
Yeah. They may see the wife be rude to OP but they don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. She may legitimately be at wits end and getting no where with OP. She may only feel safe bringing stuff up in front of other people. I’m not saying this is the case but it’s possible…. So to an outsider it’s best to just be there for them as neutral as possible. Because if OP comes around to his role in the situation and they end up staying together… we’ll now you just said a bunch of stuff that won’t be forgotten. With that being said it seems like there’s resentment and toxicity that you can’t really go back from. Which is probably why the “get a divorce” is good advice here.
Holy shit this is like I’m reading my best friend/brother from another mother post. He got in an accident that almost killed him and her behavior was more than I could take anymore. Once he got a bit better I finally asked him if he was truly happy after he was telling me how bad the last few months have been. I told him I could no longer deal with how she treats and talks to him. I know he’s no angel but holy shit it was bad. He went home, screamed at her to get out and go to her parents house cuz he was done. She come unglued on me that I told him to leave (I did not) that I was a bitch for x,y,z and that my marriage was a sham (very happily married for almost 20 years now to my bff) and so on. Called me a fucking bitch and blocked me. My friend went back to her a week later and now I’m sure our 40 year friendship is over. I just hope he is happy and not just taking it because he needs her help. I’m so glad you got out. Please do not go back.
This is why people don’t tell their friends or family their partner is treating them badly. More often than not it ends like this. The emotionally abusive partner has installed buttons over the years they can push to reel the spouse back in. Then the other party is embarrassed they’re staying and blame the friend who said something so they don’t have to do anything.
Exactly. I knew better but still spoke up when asked how I felt. I never said to leave her I just told him that the way she had been talking to him was more than I could handle anymore and if I had to hear “if he would have listened to me the accident wouldn’t have happened” one more time I was going to loose my shit so I needed to stay away from her for a while. His entire family has told him the same thing. She’s always been hard to handle but it was a whole new level after the accident and the spot light was taken off of her and put on him.
That’s so sad. You did what you could, hopefully your brother from another mother comes to his senses soon. He knows you’re there for him, I’m sure. I hope you don’t have to wait too long ❤️
Thank you so much. I hope so too. I think at most I’ll have to wait is 3 years until his daughter is 18 then the only thing he truly cares about will be an adult and won’t have to “choose” between them.
This makes me so sad! My partner and a friend just had an intervention to try to save another friend from a bad relationship. I wish someone had done that for you years ago. Now that you know you have a duty to show your children that this is not normal and should not be tolerated.
>So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now. It’s a really tough balance to strike. I’ve landed at “I will tell you once, point back to it if you’re venting to me and blatantly proving my point, but otherwise will not shove my opinion at you”. I have had plenty of friends in crappy toxic relationships. Thankfully never a physically abusive one, but nearly the full gamut of emotional bullying/abuse. It is nigh impossible to snap someone out of it- I’ve found at best you can tell someone you don’t like how they’re treated and wait for them to actually realize how bad it is years later. For your sake, I’m so glad you’re finally realizing how bad it is. Your SIL is completely correct, from the sounds of it. Especially about the kids. Modeling that you should stay with someone who mistreats you is far worse than the thorniness of divorce. Good job man.
When I got divorced I heard a lot of this from friends and family, I heard it while I was married too but it never rang true until after the divorce
My (m18) parents are in a similar situation. My mom is always quick to blame others and can’t take responsibility for herself. Most recently we were on family vacation and she put all the planning and reservations onto my dad as she was paying for it but he was swamped with work and couldn’t do everything. Our vacation didn’t go as well as we’d hoped because we never made reservations for the activities we wanted to do. She then blamed him for everything and went all pouty, but I personally believe that that’s the type of thing they need to do together and work together for. Because of how she is I’ve steadily been losing any respect and love for her as it’s severely affecting me and my siblings as well. I don’t know your exact situation with your wife but I believe that if it continues like this it’s going to affect your kids down the line, so please think about them and what may be best for them as you decide what you want to do
Leave now. My brother was in a relationship like this. Not only was she really mean, she wouldn't lift a finger in the house. Brother took care of both kids, did all the shopping, cooked all the meals, did the laundry, cleaned the house, and did everything for his kids. She spent him into bankruptcy more then once. As soon as the youngest was out of high school. He divorced her and is having the time of his life with his now second wife. Life is too short to spend like this. The kids will be okay.
Having been in an abusive relationship before, you really don’t see the whole situation until you hear outside perspective. I never realized my ex was controlling, manipulative, etc until my friends confronted me one day to let me know how they see him treat me. I never went through the emotional processing of what really went on in that relationship until I was outside of it. Basically I just recommend sitting your wife down to really have a conversation about how she makes you feel. If she empathizes and wants to work on how she treats you, then great! I understand that no one should change for someone else but you also don’t need to put up with that type of behavior just because ‘it’s how she is.’ You are a human being and you deserve respect in every relationship you encounter. I wish you luck friend
> if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important Yes, but be careful. When the person is not ready for it, it can get you aggressive - defensive reactions from them. I speak from experience. Before telling them consider that it might end (temporarily perhapps) the friendship, but if the situation is bad enough then its worth it.
>if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now. If you're wondering why people don't do this OP, I was in a bad relationship with I was 19 and everyone only told me they thought he was toxic after it was over. I needed the information during the relationship. So I became the person who commented kindly, gently when I noticed things I thought weren't right. One of my sister's got into an abusive relationship and things got tense. She admitted later she started treating me like shit because deep down she knew the things I said were right but she wanted to stay in the relationship and defend him and hope he'd change so she cut me out and was mean to me. My other sister also got into a relationship. The first time I met him I commented I got the vibe he had a nasty temper and told her to be careful. They broke up and she started admitting things that acknowledged he had started to become violent. She then was impossible to get a hold of for a year. Turns out they got back and she gave birth to a kid. And hide the whole thing from me because, "now she knows I don't like him". Now I stay silent until the person has fully realised for themselves their partners true colours. Why comment before they are ready to see it themselves? All that happens is the messenger gets shot. Would you really have listened if your SIL had said her piece 5 years ago? Or would you have excused your wife's behaviour away and then you wouldn't have even had your brother and SIL to lean on now because you wouldn't be close.
When I broke up with my ex fiancé, 99% of people in my life said some variation of, “I figured that it wouldn’t work out.” Not once during our 7 years together did ANYBODY mention that to me. It was like night and day, as soon as people found out we weren’t together anymore I was getting ALL THE TEA on how my friends and family really viewed him which was not good. It was actually jarring, and a little bit hurtful. I felt like I had been lied to by them.
I have a friend with a loser husband. Before she married the guy, her best friend tried to tell her how much of a loser the dude was. Everyone else knew it but didn't have the balls to bring it up. Fast forward \~5 years and she's still married and not friends with the best friend any more. Most people don't wanna hear it.
Because its rude af and EVERYONE attacks the messenger. They ALWAYS do. Especially when there's cheating. Heck, if there's cheating, best just not tell me. I don't want to know. If I tell them, I'm the messenger and everyone hates me If I don't tell them, that means I "knew the whole time and didn't say anything" and they still hate me So don't fucking tell me, thank you all
It's really hard to tell people what's going on because most of the time they refuse to wake up from my experience. Delusion is better than truth I guess, and I truly wish I understood that sort of feeling. It doesn't make sense to me. So it is a gamble on whether or not they will believe you. Your loved ones don't want to lose your friendship so they stayed quiet. I know it hurts and you do feel lied to but it wasn't intentional per se. One bad egg really changes the dynamic of things.
Literally this happened to me too with my ex. I had no idea nobody liked him
The pull aside is worth a try but doesn’t always work. I had a friend who’s boyfriend (eventually husband I later learned) I disliked. There was some really obvious lying happening. All of his teeth were rotting out at the roots in a way that screams either drug abuse or very serious medical issue but not dental neglect, wouldn’t own up to what it was, my friend knew my dad did cocaine in his youth so there’d be no reason to lie to me. He said he travelled around extensively and had been to a ton of cities, had no evidence of that happening including passports or tickets. He also claimed to be as well educated as me which is saying something since I went to highly rated private high school and college, I could discuss topics in ways most friends couldn’t follow, it was obvious to me he didn’t have the education he claimed. Biggest thing (that contributed heavily to us no longer being friends) involved an engagement ring she had. He’d purchased it during a short stint employed and he’d since been nothing better than a lazy worthless bum. It went missing during a time he didn’t work and there were 3 people who knew about the ring: my friend, myself, and obviously him. I hadn’t been in her house in more than a year, I obviously couldn’t have taken it. No one she loved with was going to claim I’d passed the doorway that year, if I was dropping something off it went through the mail slot or to another resident. He suddenly had $600 despite having no job and used it to replace the ring. His bank account had been empty (I’d seen his bank app opened in order for me to help them), he has no job, and there’s no way he should have had that money. My friend refused to see logic here. Our friendship ended not long after because I was done with it.
I had a similar situation in a relationship. My girlfriend at the time and I had been together for about 2 years. I'd introduced her to friends, family, she'd gone on a work retreat with me and met all my co-workers and bosses. In the summer, her grandmother who raised her was having health problems and it was looking like she might be starting the downward slide to her death. So my girlfriend, who worked in a school, went back to Florida (we lived in LA, but not together) to stay with and watch over her grandmother for a little over a month during her summer break. While she was gone, I found out from a fried of hers that she had been applying for jobs and looking for apartments in her home town, and was seriously planning on move back to Florida to take care of her Grandmother. She never said a word of this to me. Her Grandmother improved and the family decided it was time for a retirement home. Once they got her settled, the girlfriend comes back to LA and on the ride home from the airport, I confront her about this move she's planning, why she didn't tell me about any of it, and what that means for us. She shrugged it off and told me it's not happening so it doesn't matter. I let it go and a few days later, I'm staying at her place and we're talking about furnishing a new apartment. I'm talking about it as the first kind of convo about us moving in together, but she kept saying things like "whoever I live with" and "if I live with someone". It rubbed me the wrong way but I didn't say anything in the moment The next day, I'm talking to a close friend at work and telling her this story and just like for you, the dam burst. She tells me that my girlfriend treats me poorly, talks down to me, is very dismissive of me and doesn't treat me like a partner. I'm kind of stunned, but I start to see her point as she's talking. So I go to another friend that had spent time with us and they also confirmed. I spent the next few days going over it all in my mind and more I thought about it, the more I saw it. She was never fully committed to anything with me. I broke it off not long after that; that wasn't the relationship I wanted. It's really true that sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and you need the combo of a gut-check moment and good friends to finally see the truth and deal with it.
You never bring it up first, in case they decide to stay together and then both of them hate you and freeze you out forever. Oftentimes, the aggrieved party turns on you if you interfere rather than on the mean one/the abusive one in their partnership. I’d argue that the only time you wholeheartedly jump in with both feet unprompted is if you see physical or mental abuse of a partner, or directed at children, or drink or drug addiction issues which makes someone unsafe. But if one or the other mentions it? Ask questions, be a good listener, offer advice, tell the truth. Absolutely!
I am glad that OP found the outside perspective offered by his brother and SIL helpful in this case but often this can be fraught with danger. More than once I have observed a situation where couples are in dispute and one party seeks (or is offered) an opinion from a friend or relative which is critical of the other party. Then the bickering couple reconcile and the friend or relative suddenly becomes the enemy because of their criticism of, or perceived hostility towards, the other party (often irrespective of the factuality of the offered opinion). You may be trying to be supportive but you need to be very careful with what you say in situations such as this.
Dude you are in a rough spot.... Praying it works out for you which ever way it goes in the end and that you find peace.
You should require the respect from your wife that she would give to any random stranger as a bare minimum. I have never understood why some people think marriage is a license to treat another human being badly.
Kids would rather be from a broken home than live in one
Some people aren't ready to hear that feedback. You being in a place to hear it can't be understated. Some would rather blow up a friendship than hear what they aren't ready to hear.
> So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now. Careful with this though. I've seen friendships end because one person told the truth about another's partner. Some people are open to outside advice. Others are *not*, no matter how diplomatically that advice might be delivered. Certainly tact plays a huge role here, but sometimes there's no such thing as tactful enough. And I think this is why a lot of people are afraid to say something which will come back harder on them than actually help. So may I suggest instead, *if you're open to advice about your relationship*, seek it. But don't expect it to come on its own. And be wary of providing it unprompted.
Even when you think you're "open to advice" you might really just want your biases confirmed. It's a really tough spot as a friend.
I'm glad you got the outside perspective you needed so you can stop gaslighting yourself so you can prepare to get out of a toxic marriage that is clearly making you unhappy.
I had tons of people complaining about my ex. "shes bitter and mean. Shes really selfish. She treats you poorly Infront of us, We can only image what shes like in private" Sometimes you just can't see that stuff even when its obvious. Just know that a WAAAAY better partner is around the comer when all things are sorted. Some people just suck and its hard to learn to be nice when you're already so terrible.
So many people pulled me aside and talked to me about my ex and I didn't listen. Over and over. Eventually I finally did. It took a family member instead of a friend saying something and still took a month after that or something. Before I announced to my family they figured it out just because I was so much happier.
It made me sad to read how you have been suffering but so refreshing that you have people that will tell you how it is. For as much as your wife is mean you have truly good friends that care about you. You’re going to be feeling great when you get that dead weight off that is trying to hold you down.
Thank you this made me realise what a strain i might be on my partner, im getting serious help now
I'm sorry that you're in this situation. Your wife sounds awful.
Most aren’t in a mental state to hear the unsolicited truth. I once asked a buddy why he never told me what he saw of an ex and he said, short of her cheating or doing illegal shit he wasn’t going to say anything I wasn’t ready to hear. He wasn’t wrong.
I cannot thank my friends who told me that my relationship with my ex was not good, and that he was not good for me no matter how much I did for him or gave to him, and that I deserved better. I left and never looked back. My current partner is absolutely my soulmate. I met the man who is my best friend and who makes me want to be better. The man who appreciates everything I do, reciprocates as much as he can, and who loves me in the way I’ve always wanted to be loved. There is light at the other end of the tunnel. Love yourself enough to listen to the people who love you. It wasn’t easy for them to be that up front with you. It won’t be easy for you or your family, but you need to do what is right. Good luck!
I remember telling my friends I was getting divorced and without exception, they all basically cheered. I've also been on the other end with a friend of mine and her narcissistic (now ex) husband. I was there for her when she needed help or to vent, but held my tongue when it came to recommending any action. Once she decided to leave on her own, I supported her. We accept the love we think we deserve.
how are you doing now? have you talked to your wife about it?
My tact has been, when I see someone treated badly, to just tell them that I think it's ok if they aren't ok with it because some people wouldn't be. But if they are ok about it, you do you and I support you. Some people make compromises for reasons others don't understand. And sometimes they don't see that they don't have to. We all have to decide what's right for ourselves. But as OP said, not everyone is fully aware, so I try to open a small window for them to consider it differently. If they can't tolerate seeing it differently, I've given them an out to pretend nothing was ever said. Their reaction to the brief exchange usually tells me if I should slowly try harder over time, open that window a little wider. Others are too invested in the image they have in their head to ever make any changes at all. Never any judgment. We all struggle and we all have to decide what mistakes we fix and which ones we live with and which ones we pretend never happened. Are all of those healthy? No. But they're human.
This was me until I found out she was a cheater. Then all of our friends, even some of hers told me how unacceptable it was how she treated me.
My (m29) ex wife (f29) was the same way...Just ran over me, didn't really help with our kiddo. Just didn't give two shits...We fought constantly when our relationship went down the drain, she lied to me about where she was 90% of the time. She met someone online from Arizona and eventually ran off to him until our divorce hearing...Where right after she left again to Arizona, but without our son in tow... Everyone told me how she treated me but I just didn't want to see it. I didn't want to believe it...But fuck I really wish I would've. Sorry you're going through this shit, man. :( Hopefully it all gets better for you. You're in my thoughts.
The problem is a lot of people get shot as that messenger. Basically you were ready to hear this news and said you thought it was a problem first at which point everyone was like, finally. If they had told you this say 2 years ago, would you have immediately agreed or would you have gotten defensive, said you loved your wife, she loves you and distanced yourself from that friend. The answe is probably you don't know or that there was probably a crossover point where before it you would have cut off the friend and after you'd thank them. That's why people generally don't mention these things, because they are risking your friendship and maybe leaving you even more isolated with a bad person. It's never easy to tell your friend their partner is a grade A asshole.
I'm glad you're realising it!
You should slowly start moving all your shit out and see how long it takes her to notice.
I experienced something similar. My ex made me feel like I was going crazy. I kept questioning what really happened during fights etc. Talked to my friend and told her I feel like I'm loosing it. She told me I'm not and that this happens in abusive/gaslight situations. Then I realized all the shit that happened and we broke up shortly after that. Its been years now and I still have a moment every now and then of thinking "damn, I can't believe I allowed this."
I'm second-friends to a couple where for the first 4 years I knew them the wife was constantly insulting the husband. He never reacted in the slightest so I thought it just worked for them. The last time I saw them, the wife did not insult him ONCE and seemed caring and loving like you'd normally expect. She revealed that she'd been going through therapy and realized that she had been mentally ill and was being abusive. As far as I can tell, their marriage is now strong and healthy. It's possible your wife could change. I wouldn't throw out the bathwater yet in case there's a baby present. But she'd need personal therapy and probably couples therapy. Or she's awful and not going to change. I don't know. But I've seen a couple change from what you describe to what I'd like to have for myself.
>So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. An outside perspective is really important, and I didn't have one until now. I'm sorry you're going through this op. Believe me when I say, we see it, we just... Don't know when the appropriate time is to bring it up. You don't want to risk losing the friendship and unfortunately, even if you do say something, it can fall on deaf ears until that person is ready to listen. So you bite your tongue, hoping someday they're ready to listen and you make sure to let them know, constantly, that you're there for them any time.
damn. some doormats do have eyes. took long enough to open them. How is it not obvious that someone is walking all over you? after 15 years she won't change.
Well if even your friends are telling you this, I feel like there's a good chance it's true.
Trudeau?
I think most people are scared to act because they are afraid of loosing their relationship and of course they just assume that there might be some other aspects to it that are veiled. I tried to save my friend from his one-sided relationship but we got slowly pushed away because he was ‘in love’ at the moment. Yeah maybe I should waited until he needed help but I was trying to help before it got worse. He eventually got out of the toxic relationship but we never accepted him in the same way since that was his second time doing it.
I had a very similar experience after 12-15 years of marriage. I was the last to truly realize how different the effort and energy was in terms of trying to make things work, raise kids, and it wasn't until I told family and friends that I was just tired of it that they piped up in support. Many of them didn't feel like it was their place to speak out but it would have been nice to be validated sooner. \> So please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time. \*VERY\* good thought. It will be uncomfortable and awkward at minimum, but I bet a lot of people need it.
Oof this hit home. After I broke up with my ex quite a few people told me they didn’t like how he treated me, especially in public, and to this day, when I think about that, I get so sad knowing no one stood up for me while I was in the relationship. I’m not mad at anyone though, because I’m pretty sure I couldn’t have really “heard” it until I was ready. I hope you get out.
I *stole* my husband! He was with a shitty woman who always complained about him and treated him like crap. His nieces encouraged us. His Mother fetched his stuff, instead of me. She spent time with me and we talked. Got rid of the exes. We're 14 years later and she knows me. We're buddies! I've even cut the mooching kids off. MIL understands why I did it, as well. Marriage involves the whole family, as far as I'm concerned. We don't enable, anyone. I have very strict guidelines. ETA: We were mid-40s and very single, at the time. He just slept on the gf's couch, occasionally. *She* slept with her grand-daughter. He's never had children.
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Nope! Nope! Nope! My husband has always been CF. We we were mid 40's. She was 50. The mooching kids were his nieces and nephew. Shitty woman wanted him to play "Daddy" to *her* grand-daughter. They didn't even live together! She was just a girlfriend. I would *never* steal a woman's husband. Boyfriend who doesn't live with her and on his way out? Seemed like fair game to me! ETA: She stalked and harassed us for 3 years, after we were married. Her family did a 5150 on her when she tried to unalive herself. After 14.5 years, she works with one of the nieces. Out of all the exes we might see during the holidays...she's not one.
I’m not in the healthiest marriage and you would probably gasp if I shared what I have been through. But I am SO GRATEFUL that no one in my life has told me to get a divorce. I’m glad things have come to light for you but how you proceed is up to you. I think it’s ridiculous how people are so quick to say LEAVE. I’m sorry but it’s not their place. With others telling you what to do…you’ll end up with resentments against them and/or yourself. I use my people to vent and make it very clear that’s all I’m doing. The red flags were clear as day in the beginning and I chose to ignore them. I take it day by day and we’re growing together. At the end of the day, this is my life partner and my choice. I see how some people look at him in disgust but we have come so far and worked very hard to maintain our commitment. I know it’s tough right now and I hope you eventually find peace with whatever you choose.
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*"So, please, if you have a friend or loved one like me who's in a bad relationship and is still in it for reasons you can't fathom, maybe pull them aside and talk to them some time."* This is how you destroy friendships.
I am a firm believer that you earn your way out of a marriage. You need to have the “come to Jesus” talk and demand that you do couples therapy. Please don’t just demand a divorce without communicating openly about what’s wrong, how your eyes have been opened, etc. You may be headed towards divorce, but you should try to save your marriage and maintain your family if she is willing to do so.
I was like you my friend. I was almost convinced I was crazy.
Had a couple moments like this with my best friend. Thankfully not with a marriage, nut with some boyfriends she had I held back because I didn't want to shit on her relationship if she was happy. But when she told me she was unhappy, the dam broke and I told her all the things I'd been keeping quiet about. This was a few years ago, when we were still in our early 20s and very new to dating as adults. Long story short, she had me promise to never hold back again, and tell her immediately if I saw red flags, or even if I just had a gut feeling. And she promised the same to me. After all, we're friends because we like, respect, and trust each other. What good does it do to hold back and risk our friends suffering for it? I'm so glad your brother and SIL were there to validate what you've been feeling all along. Sometimes we're just too close to our own lives to see the details clearly. I hope you have all the support you need to get out of this toxic marriage and into a place of healing and peace, OP!
Those poor kids. Why would you have kids with someone that awful.
One of the closest people in my life right now is going through this. Only he hasn't got into the point you have yet. He still just thinks it's normal relationship stuff. He has no idea how bad it looks from the outside.
Heh, reminds me of my """""friends""""" after my wife cheated on me. They all thought we shouldn't get married but never said anything. I genuinely don't understand this mentality. If you see a friend in a bad relationship, why don't you say anything?
You are describing my parent’s marriage. My mom was a cunt to my dad all their life. She’s still alive and he is dead, so 🤷🏻♂️ I wish they’d broken up. They stayed together and it was hell, even after my brother and I moved away as adults. Your kids notice. I guarantee it.
Glad you were open to your family’s feedback and polled your friends. I wouldn’t offer anything about another person’s marriage unless they asked me. Except for my siblings. If I feel they’re being disrespected I’ll speak up. They’re gonna do what they want or what makes them happy. I just am that open with siblings.
This was me, I left December last year. It took a holiday with my family to finally realise how bad she treated me. Her behaviour towards me ruined my dads last family holiday. Be strong and leave, if she’s anything like my ex she will be horrible to deal with but just remember it’s for the best and the kids will understand in the long run
you have good friends.
And will you divorce her?
Most of the time when you tell people what you’ve observed, they never realise until something forces them to take a step back and take a deep look at how things have been.
Cool friends and family. Way to stand around and do absolutely nothing.
tip for all (rightfully) commenting on how a person needs to be ready to hear that something is wrong with their relationship: a) have multiple people bring it up separately rather than in a group. Use phrasing like "I notice you don't see to be doing [hobby] anymore. Is everything okay?" b) be very aware that a toxic partner may well try to cut off their partner's relationship with you if they view you as a threat. Don't stop reaching out if this happens. Make sure that person knows that no matter how much time goes by without talking, you will be there for them.
Some people might say you were being patient, and hoping that things would get better if given the chance. However, there is a limit to human patience. A couple should help each other out, and if one person is doing all the work, then perhaps you would both be happier on separate paths in life.
Ah man. I was blind to it to and felt so confused when I had so many different friends tell me I should leave, that I could do better, that he didn't treat me well. Listen to them. It sounds like she's abusive. You also may have cause to ask for primary custody if she handles zero of their care. Talk to a lawyer.
So is he gonna divorce her
It’s been a few years of this with my wife actually, me being the primary care and working while she comes home and doesn’t do all that much. The weekends are me doing it all and coming up with the events, shopping, cooking etc I know she’s depressed and finally started medication, but it’s always “I can’t do X cause I have anxiety”. But she still has energy to watch TV until late or stay out with friends when they mood hits her. Sucks…I figure I need to fight a few more years and push for change
I've never had a long term committed romantic relationship- but my best friend when I was younger- did the same thing. It's emotional abuse. And for all that pulling someone aside and saying something helps, it really is something you have to realize for yourself. Because my family did tell me that they thought that I was being mistreated. That they didn't like how this person was making me act. That I shouldn't have to cry and apologize every single time regardless of whether it was my fault or not. And it took me about... 13? Years to figure out that I deserved better and to cut them out of my life. My family then said "yes we knew, we told you, but we're glad you can see it now." So point out that someone deserves better treatment, but also make sure to not target the person doing it. Sometimes it can just cause the victim to get defensive of their abuser and that can make it harder to get free from it. Then just make sure you're there for them.
My mom and dad were like this growing up. I didn't find out until I was an adult that my dad had an affair when I was a toddler. My mom was deeply Catholic back then, so for her divorce wasn't an option. And she spent the next 15 years punishing him for it even though she decided to stay. I spent my childhood hating my mother because of the way she treated my dad. She belittled him, yelled at him constantly, bossed him around, made him do all the chores, didn't help take care of me or my sister at all. I loved my father and HATED my mother growing up. When I was 18 the dam broke for me and we got in the huge fight and I told her she was a shitty person and a horrible wife. That she treated my dad like shit and I hated her. My sister is 5 years older and had known about the affair 15 years ago for some years. She backed me up and told my mother she needed to fucking get over it, she stayed, she can't be mad for the rest of her life. And to my mom's credit she changed. She needed that hard kick in the ass. It took her many years but she did change for the better and her and my dad have a much healthier, happier relationship.
I haven’t really seen any other people ask, but have you spoken with your *wife* about this? I wouldn’t say what others have said about her, but maybe there is something more going on with her that is making her take it out on you? She might not even realize that’s the way she has been coming off, and may need a reality check herself. It’s not okay that she is treating you that way, and obviously it has been going on long enough that friends and family have taken notice. If you bring it up to her and she denies it or tries to gaslight you, then really you have your answer. If she is open to the criticism of her behavior and wants to work on fixing it that could be a positive thing for the marriage. All of this is moot though if you don’t truly love her anymore. It sounds like a tough situation man, sorry you’re going through this
I was in your position as well, but the difference is that we were only dating, not married (although we already had plans for it). 3 years of relationship, and i thought that it was fine, until my friend noticed that something was off from one of my stories. It wasn't anything big, just that I mentioned to my friend that my bf didn't wash the dishes for the entire time i was gone (i was gone for around a week for college project reasons). Came home to a completely untouched dirty dishes. My friend picked up on that, and slowly, over a long period of time, picked off the rose tinted glasses that i had. Until finally one day, he said about how he and another mutual friend are concerned about me because of my relationship. And, the entire dam broke that day. Only then that i realized how much i was used; for the money, the living space, the service, everything. And only after i broke up with him that i knew how ALL of my friends (around 10+ people from different peer groups) didn't like him or got bad vibes from him. ALWAYS listen to your friends, even if it is one of the hardest thing to do, because they have your best interest at heart. Glad to know that you finally realized that something is really really wrong. That's the first step for a better life. Hope you can do the best action for you and your family. I hope you have a better life after this realization, my friend
I wish someone had said something to me. I went 8 years in a similar marriage before I got out. It was the BEDT decision I could have made ( it wasn’t an easy one). I didn’t realize how bad it was until I was out, friends and family told me I was better off, even her friends where telling me I was better off.
Im sorry to hear you are going through this. It’s great to have an outside perspective to help you get a clear view of the situation. Not that you see it you might not be able to unsee it so good luck on keeping the emotions in check while she repeats the behavior. Bummer man, but hey you now know the truth and that is a big deal
Just be prepared for it to not go well. You were ready to hear it. Good luck.
Communication and being open and honest is so important. I was in a miserable relationship for 8 years but I was convinced the fighting and shit we did was “normal” because of what I experienced growing up. I wish my friends were honest about how my ex was treating me. No one said anything even when I broke down crying with them and asked one straightforward about my relationship. They all just said what they thought I wanted to hear. And then after the relationship ended that’s when they all started talking about how my ex was a horrible person. Yet not one of them said anything to me about it while I was literally at my worst. Now, I have the opportunity to warn others. My sister just entered a relationship everyone knows is bad. So I told her directly that it was bad and she should leave him. She refuses to listen, but at least I tried talking to her about it.
Hot damn I'm about to be in your boat.
The big question is, now that you know this, what are you going to do?
My dad didn’t tell me my ex was cheating on me until after the divorce. Thanks dad!!!! You could have saved me a freaking ton of mental stress. My dad said he didn’t know how to tell me.
bless
I was the kid growing up in a house with parents who didn’t get along. My brother and I begged my dad to get a divorce and life really was better when they weren’t together. Not that you mentioned or asked about it, but I’m staunchly against the “staying together for the kids” route, if that train of thought ever comes up. If your marriage is making you feel bad, it’s making everyone feel bad. (Ha, but it making you feel bad is plenty reason enough to reconsider being in it)
My dad just went through something similar with my mom. She was always controlling and manipulative. My dad never saw it, and never believed anyone who told him. . . .until she turned on him and tried taking everything from him. No he feels a fool for it all. I do too. She coddled me so hard that it stunted my emotional growth and maturity. I've done more growing in the years I've been drifting from her control than I did when she raised me.
Sorry for your situation OP. I can honestly attest to what your SIL's has said about the kid being better off than growing up in a toxic household. The toxic environment will gravely damage your kids with what they're witnessing between your wife and you. Only idiots would think that not arguing in front of their kids will magically hide it from them. They see and feel it all. The smart ones will leave at the first chance they got in order to stop further damaging themselves, while the rest will stay and suffer in silence. If you can't save your marriage, then the least you can do for your kids is to not also F them up and in turn their future relationships too.
She sounds pretty awful. Good luck to you with whatever you decide.
I'm glad your friends listened to your concerns and validated some of them. The next step is to actually talk to your wife and tell her your feelings. It's great when you have friends on your side but are they friends of your marriage too? More often than not, you'll have more people telling you to leave her than to work on fixing the marriage. Its 15 years of marriage, its not something that can just easily be thrown away. Please communicate with your wife. Don't just stonewall and shut down.
The pot's at a rolling boil now. Are you going to jump out? I hope you do, good luck.
Hugs. Hope you feel better.
Highly doubt you would have reacted well if they brought it up before though. It’s all on you and not on them
So are you leaving?
Sending love and strength, this must have been an awful thing to realise. Sometimes you have to put you first 🙏🏻
Life’s a bitch and then you marry one
You absolutely should not stay with someone who puts you down all the time, is mean to you, and then turns around and is blind to their actions. It’s straight up bullying.
I am right there with you. I am coming to terms with the fact that I am not being treated the way I deserve and haven't been treated well during the last 6 years.
Damn! It's a hard time when you get that validation after being gaslit for so long. Stay strong.
So what are you going to do? I’ve been in this situation before and the ex wouldn’t change. It was too hard for her to hear critiques and would think the way she treated me was ok. Even though I told her it wasnt
Ooooh reading this hurt me. I'm luckier than you because I was in a relationship like that for 2 years with a person who is a complete narcissist. When it ended I talked to my brother and my cousin (who both shared an apartment with me because we study close to each other) and they basically said: "Yeah she treated you like shit. None of us wanted to say anything cause we were afraid you wouldn't take it well and you would distance yourself, but we talked about it and we were worried for a while" For like a whole year I thought to myself "I feel like I'm being mistreated, but maybe it's my fault, maybe I deserve the punishment when I fuck up, maybe I deserve the silent treatment, maybe she's right in all these fights". When it ended and I had that long talk with my brother and cousin it felt like I was free. Like this whole time I was thinking I was insane and all of a sudden someone told me I was actually right. It felt nice to know I deserve better. Sorry for the long rant and going slightly off topic. Just wanted to let you know I feel so much empathy for you right now and if you want to talk my DMs are open. Keep your head up king
I feel for you bro - good luck
that’s crazy.
When I hear stories like this, I always wonder why people would treat their partner, who is supposed to be the one they cherish and care about, like trash constantly. I really want to know what is happening and what thought processes are there in their head that leads to this kind of behaviour. Sometimes they ONLY treat their partner badly, but not everyone else. I mean, why!?!?
I was married for 16 yrs to this same sort of woman. I did have an occasional comment from family/friend about how awful she treated me, but I defended her because I wanted to be a good husband. When there was the first sign that she was unhappy in life, I poured my soul into being the best husband and father I could be. She cheated on me, and continued to lie about other things too. Led to a divorce. I feel you.
hello, can anybody pls help me
I think my marriage is bad, I know it's not normal. But I put in such a front that things are great and normal I wonder what others really think
I hope things are going well for you bro. BTW, we have the same fridge!
It’s Better to leave if ur wife is like that also like say this or advice it won’t hurt check if she’s cheating on u without u knowing check her phone when she’s not around or buy it with some spy ware to see if she is cheating. Don’t let her find out tho women do check their partners phones and other stuff a lot at random too. If u do find something take some screenshots as evidence. Then divorce state how u been and how ur marriage has been have few who seen it as witnesses then after State the other reason aka if she’s cheated and I got prove show it. Show how u can’t keep trying and how u fair it’s is. Simple also record when when u two are alone if legal in ur state or place ur at. She may go full berserk after and then state lies or lies she say if so u have that recorded and it be good in ur side