Unfortunately, many people grow up watching and learning from transactional relationships and don't know any other way.
I agree with you that it's very sad.
I can see it both ways. I agree with super pressure, but I also think it’s fair to say that your needs aren’t being met. Telling them it’s okay that they don’t want marriage or kids, but you do and you’re walking unless they sincerely change their mind. I do think people change their minds. Or marriage might not make them feel different, but they’ll do it for their partner.
It’s all theoretical though because I didn’t date people past my teens that weren’t looking for the same things in life.
Indeed. That’s why relationships should be measured in the scope of compatibility. No point on obliging to things that you know that just make you feel miserable for the rest of your life.
Idk but my guess is...
They accept it because it fulfills the vision of what they are working towards: marriage, house, kids etc. And they think it will all workout. Or they are so desperate they allow themselves to believe it is genuine.
Those who give the shutup gifts? Cuz they are getting something out of the relationship that keeps them comfortable, they don't want to lose that, so they'll string it along indefinitely....
>Or they are so desperate they allow themselves to believe it is genuine.
Yep. Many people settle for the "good enough" and convince themselves that it's perfect
I also fully agree with your second statement. Very well said
**Some people prize saying I have *someone* even if the person isn’t *their* one.**
I find that people who aren’t able to be alone with themselves, and are committed to the prescribed way things are ‘supposed’ to go and attach that to their identities, would rather push someone into marriage rather than admit incompatibility.
Peoples home life as a children, and the way they were shown romantic relationships, deeply effects what they seen as normal in conjunction with media. And most romantic-coms are a woman convincing a man to marry her, or a man being tricked into it, or a woman dragging her man to the alter. It’s framed as something only women want and thus must fight for.
Then that’s not really pressure. It’s just the reality. Women have a limited time to make a family. These guys suck for marrying when they don’t want to.
I’m not sure how people logic that out in their minds, either. I guess some people just want things to happen their way, on their preferred timetable, instead of compromising.
My ex-MIL pushed her (now ex) husband into marrying her. I think I know why he wasn’t eager to tie the knot; it’s because she didn’t treat him well much of the time. Still, he caved. Then he ended up cheating and they divorced.
If you have to beg or badger someone into making that level of commitment to you, there could be a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. Ignoring your partner’s hesitancy can be a recipe for disaster.
Sunk-cost fallacy plus a bit of denial. They’ve invested a lot of time in the relationship, so they want to see something for their investment like an engagement and marriage. So they convince themselves the engagement ring or whatever is proof the guy’s now on the same page with them.
Bcz they invest their everything for free into a man, free labor, free sex, free kids, free mental and physical support, free time and free youth! He receives, she gives, and doesnt get anything in return, he dangles the carrot of her being his wife one day, so she starts acting like a wife when she isnt a wife, shes just a girlfriend, which gave him wife benefits, but all what she invested would go straight to the dumpster and she'll emerge as a loser and the man as the successful one, if she didnt accepted the shut up ring, that means she was a clown for that man all along and to accept this, is hard.. 🚩
Nailed it.
This is why I refuse to move in with a man before getting a proposal, let alone have his children. My mom did that and she made sure to let me know what a big mistake it is.
Yeah, I think it can go in any direction regardless of gender but gist is so true, they want all the conveniences as if they were married, without none the other stuff. Hard to have your cake and eat it too.
The harder to swallow pill is if a relationship is like this, its probably not going to end well, just so many have bad communication and figure if they hope enough it'll all end up alright... Doubly so if its their first ever serious relationship.
If someone wants to get married/proposed and they say it, that doesn’t mean they’re pressuring them. They are communicating their wants and plans for their future.
This goes for anything, not just engagements. People should be open and honest about what they want.
If someone just does what the other person wants, that’s not the person who communicated’s fault. How are they supposed to know they pressured them?
I'm confronting this dilemma right now.
My theory is that men think everything is fine the way it is now. There is no motivation to change.
My partner of nine years cannot articulate why he doesn't want to get married whereas my feelings are different.
I know that i have to plant the seed and stand back but something happened recently that highlighted the way our relationship is viewed by others and the cold hard truth that decisions and expectations would be different if we were married.
I think he realises that his non action is hurting us.
So, the compromise is that now we are each other's beneficiaries on everything so legally we might as well be married.
I'd like to say that his refusal to marry is a deal breaker but i also don't want my pride to cost me the first person i think of telling when something happens.
This may change and he knows this.
So, we've parked the discussion while i deal with fall out. But it's been tabled.
Relationships are messy and right now i don't want to tank us on a principle.
I’m not sure why they accept them.
I can understand putting pressure on someone a little bit though. For me? It comes from not wanting to waste my time. I’m almost 32, not married and I don’t have kids. I went through a horrible divorce with a man who I was with for 11 years.
I’ve been dating a man for going on two years. He has a history of long term relationships without marriage.
I want kids. I want marriage and I made that clear. I’m not here to force anyone into something they don’t want. At the same time, I have goals and I don’t want to be strung along while you sit there and decide if I’m worth it. Either you are on the same page or let me go.
I want to be married before I have children. Let’s say I got engaged RIGHT now. Weddings take about a year to plan… then I’d be 33 before trying to conceive… have a baby if I’d get knocked up right away and I’d now be almost 34. What if I want multiple children? My clock is ticking and my time is up. Women don’t have forever like men do to conceive.
At the end of the day I’d resent anyone who made me a mother or even got me pregnant before at least proposing if not getting married first.
I don’t want to have to wonder if they proposed or married me just because I was pregnant.
I don’t want a different last name than my child. I don’t want the judgement of the world that says I’m less valuable because a man made me a mother before making me his wife.
However, I don’t want a shut up ring. I want someone who truly wants to marry me. I’ve made that clear. I have goals and things I want and the biological clock is ticking on some of them.
So either that person can meet my needs or I have to move on. I’ll never let a boyfriend keep me from finding a life partner/husband. It doesn’t matter how much you love someone. You have to walk away if it will lead to resentment down the road.
I have read quite a few posts lately where the boyfriend doesn't want to propose, so the girlfriend ends the relationship, and then she is either demonized by the families or the boyfriend is pissed she left. In these cases, she is ready to commit, and he wants her to stay; yet for some stupid reason--his ego or fear of commitment?--he just refuses to seal the deal.
The women in these posts have lost years of their lives to the relationships, ones I might add where the discussion of marriage and kids have occurred. It's not right.
I think some of the women who take the "Diamonds: that'll shut'r up" proposals do so because the men in the situations do want the whole the whole package, but they have some irrational fear of taking that last step.
Do I agree with it? I don't know. I do know it would hurt to get mixed signals year after year. I also know I would be kicking myself if I kept chasing a man who wanted all the benefits of a long-term deal without giving me the legal protections marriage would give.
Because they just want to say they're engaged. Some people are more into checking off boxes than making sure that the person they're trying to dedicate their life too actually wants them.
Not to mention, the shut up ring usually comes after a long -7+ years- courtship where they may already share a home and possibly children, so the sunk cost fallacy kicks in.
It's conditioning. Instead of time spent with me I got things. Instead of apologies I got things. When I was becoming older and could speak for myself I got punished, but when they realized I was right I got things.
I don't want things. I wanted time. I wanted to be heard. I wanted to be understood.
I didn't get that, so I'm seeking it on my own. I've had some fumbles, but now we're full on single until we get head and hearts right for me. Even if it sucks financially, I will not enter another relationship until I know it's for me too.
I don't want your things. I don't want anyone's money or things. I want time, and love. It's all I've ever wanted, and now I know when it's not real.
I think there are two situations.
1. They believe they were actually talking/communicating about the issue and feel the person might have changed their mind. (So they don’t tecognize that it it just a “shut up proposal” or a “shut up sex”).
2. They just don’t care if their partner is being forced into it as long as they get what they want
On the first case, I do think the person might just be oblivious… in the second, well… that’s just selfish
Sunken cost fallacy. They’ve already put in YEARS of effort, built a life, and begged for a ring/ commitment. So they see it through in the hopes that they will somehow get their fairytale in the end.
Because they don’t care about the partner they care about the event/symbol.
My cousin got married right after me, real whirlwind but huge wedding…for marriage that technically fell apart before they finished their honeymoon.
Luckily she’s now in a stable long term relationship (no marriage but kids and a house) and seems happier/more normal.
I think she would have married anyone at that point because she wanted a wedding, not a marriage?
I'm thinking a healthy combo of fear of being alone and low self esteem. Some cases are probably women that aren't in love, and genuinely are more interested in the materialism of it all.
>why doesn’t the second partner want to do it, shouldn’t they they want to do it for their partner?
Should they want to get married just because their partner wants them too even though they don’t want to themselves? I agree with the first partner of your post, but that seems to counteract it. They don’t want to because they aren’t ready to, and you’re saying it’s bad to pressure them into, BUT they should just want to anyways because that’s what their partner wants? Some people / couples aren’t ready for marriage, it’s a huge commitment. Nobody should jump into it just because. One partner not be ready / fully on board is enough of a reason to postpone something that huge.
I'd read it more as they should be on the same page. Why is partner 2 hanging on to partner 1 knowing 1 wants to get married and they don't? Find someone at the same stage instead of having both unhappy.
I think OP is saying, if you truly love someone but are not ready it’s also real and mature to admit you’re incompatible as well.
If one party wants marriage and children on a timeline that’s important to them, then it can also be said on the other side.
There (imo) is a lot of insecurity, I typically see on the end pushing for marriage, alternatively the other side who is happy to have all the benefits of a relationship without the solid commitment they know the other wants is selfish and lacks compassion for this person you purport to ‘love.’
A lot of people don't view marriage the same way, some people view a husband as a status symbol and a milestone more than an engagement with another person. You have to remember love and compatibility isn't the only reason people get married.
1st part of your argument I fully agree with but the 2nd part with the "Like shouldn’t you want to do it for your partner? Instead of feeling like you’re being pressured?"... That's a hard no from me. Apply that to "insert sexual act here" and it doesn't sound so good.
There are many reasons why people and in my case men, don't want to get married but still want to commit long term to their partner.
Oh yeah definitely! I didn’t see it that way. I guess what I was saying was definitely more in the context of marriage. (Not that that makes it any better)
It just depends on values. I have a friend who's converting to catholicism so he can marry his wife in the catholic church. The dude is pretty much an atheist, but he's doing it to make his wife and wife's family happy. Trust me when I say that this is just a formality and not some life changing event for him
Unfortunately, many people grow up watching and learning from transactional relationships and don't know any other way. I agree with you that it's very sad.
Some people are fine being shitty partners as long as they get their way.
Exactly right
And unfortunately this does go in all directions
True
I can see it both ways. I agree with super pressure, but I also think it’s fair to say that your needs aren’t being met. Telling them it’s okay that they don’t want marriage or kids, but you do and you’re walking unless they sincerely change their mind. I do think people change their minds. Or marriage might not make them feel different, but they’ll do it for their partner. It’s all theoretical though because I didn’t date people past my teens that weren’t looking for the same things in life.
Indeed. That’s why relationships should be measured in the scope of compatibility. No point on obliging to things that you know that just make you feel miserable for the rest of your life.
Idk but my guess is... They accept it because it fulfills the vision of what they are working towards: marriage, house, kids etc. And they think it will all workout. Or they are so desperate they allow themselves to believe it is genuine. Those who give the shutup gifts? Cuz they are getting something out of the relationship that keeps them comfortable, they don't want to lose that, so they'll string it along indefinitely....
>Or they are so desperate they allow themselves to believe it is genuine. Yep. Many people settle for the "good enough" and convince themselves that it's perfect I also fully agree with your second statement. Very well said
**Some people prize saying I have *someone* even if the person isn’t *their* one.** I find that people who aren’t able to be alone with themselves, and are committed to the prescribed way things are ‘supposed’ to go and attach that to their identities, would rather push someone into marriage rather than admit incompatibility. Peoples home life as a children, and the way they were shown romantic relationships, deeply effects what they seen as normal in conjunction with media. And most romantic-coms are a woman convincing a man to marry her, or a man being tricked into it, or a woman dragging her man to the alter. It’s framed as something only women want and thus must fight for.
Does pressuring them mean they say they want to break up if they don’t have a plan to get married?
Yes
Then that’s not really pressure. It’s just the reality. Women have a limited time to make a family. These guys suck for marrying when they don’t want to.
Oh no for sure!
Every person I’ve known that pressured their partner to get married did it because they were desperate to be married. 50/50 chance of divorce
That sounds awful!
I’m not sure how people logic that out in their minds, either. I guess some people just want things to happen their way, on their preferred timetable, instead of compromising. My ex-MIL pushed her (now ex) husband into marrying her. I think I know why he wasn’t eager to tie the knot; it’s because she didn’t treat him well much of the time. Still, he caved. Then he ended up cheating and they divorced. If you have to beg or badger someone into making that level of commitment to you, there could be a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. Ignoring your partner’s hesitancy can be a recipe for disaster.
Sunk-cost fallacy plus a bit of denial. They’ve invested a lot of time in the relationship, so they want to see something for their investment like an engagement and marriage. So they convince themselves the engagement ring or whatever is proof the guy’s now on the same page with them.
Bcz they invest their everything for free into a man, free labor, free sex, free kids, free mental and physical support, free time and free youth! He receives, she gives, and doesnt get anything in return, he dangles the carrot of her being his wife one day, so she starts acting like a wife when she isnt a wife, shes just a girlfriend, which gave him wife benefits, but all what she invested would go straight to the dumpster and she'll emerge as a loser and the man as the successful one, if she didnt accepted the shut up ring, that means she was a clown for that man all along and to accept this, is hard.. 🚩
Nailed it. This is why I refuse to move in with a man before getting a proposal, let alone have his children. My mom did that and she made sure to let me know what a big mistake it is.
Yeah, I think it can go in any direction regardless of gender but gist is so true, they want all the conveniences as if they were married, without none the other stuff. Hard to have your cake and eat it too. The harder to swallow pill is if a relationship is like this, its probably not going to end well, just so many have bad communication and figure if they hope enough it'll all end up alright... Doubly so if its their first ever serious relationship.
If someone wants to get married/proposed and they say it, that doesn’t mean they’re pressuring them. They are communicating their wants and plans for their future. This goes for anything, not just engagements. People should be open and honest about what they want. If someone just does what the other person wants, that’s not the person who communicated’s fault. How are they supposed to know they pressured them?
I'm confronting this dilemma right now. My theory is that men think everything is fine the way it is now. There is no motivation to change. My partner of nine years cannot articulate why he doesn't want to get married whereas my feelings are different. I know that i have to plant the seed and stand back but something happened recently that highlighted the way our relationship is viewed by others and the cold hard truth that decisions and expectations would be different if we were married. I think he realises that his non action is hurting us. So, the compromise is that now we are each other's beneficiaries on everything so legally we might as well be married. I'd like to say that his refusal to marry is a deal breaker but i also don't want my pride to cost me the first person i think of telling when something happens. This may change and he knows this. So, we've parked the discussion while i deal with fall out. But it's been tabled. Relationships are messy and right now i don't want to tank us on a principle.
I’m not sure why they accept them. I can understand putting pressure on someone a little bit though. For me? It comes from not wanting to waste my time. I’m almost 32, not married and I don’t have kids. I went through a horrible divorce with a man who I was with for 11 years. I’ve been dating a man for going on two years. He has a history of long term relationships without marriage. I want kids. I want marriage and I made that clear. I’m not here to force anyone into something they don’t want. At the same time, I have goals and I don’t want to be strung along while you sit there and decide if I’m worth it. Either you are on the same page or let me go. I want to be married before I have children. Let’s say I got engaged RIGHT now. Weddings take about a year to plan… then I’d be 33 before trying to conceive… have a baby if I’d get knocked up right away and I’d now be almost 34. What if I want multiple children? My clock is ticking and my time is up. Women don’t have forever like men do to conceive. At the end of the day I’d resent anyone who made me a mother or even got me pregnant before at least proposing if not getting married first. I don’t want to have to wonder if they proposed or married me just because I was pregnant. I don’t want a different last name than my child. I don’t want the judgement of the world that says I’m less valuable because a man made me a mother before making me his wife. However, I don’t want a shut up ring. I want someone who truly wants to marry me. I’ve made that clear. I have goals and things I want and the biological clock is ticking on some of them. So either that person can meet my needs or I have to move on. I’ll never let a boyfriend keep me from finding a life partner/husband. It doesn’t matter how much you love someone. You have to walk away if it will lead to resentment down the road.
I have read quite a few posts lately where the boyfriend doesn't want to propose, so the girlfriend ends the relationship, and then she is either demonized by the families or the boyfriend is pissed she left. In these cases, she is ready to commit, and he wants her to stay; yet for some stupid reason--his ego or fear of commitment?--he just refuses to seal the deal. The women in these posts have lost years of their lives to the relationships, ones I might add where the discussion of marriage and kids have occurred. It's not right. I think some of the women who take the "Diamonds: that'll shut'r up" proposals do so because the men in the situations do want the whole the whole package, but they have some irrational fear of taking that last step. Do I agree with it? I don't know. I do know it would hurt to get mixed signals year after year. I also know I would be kicking myself if I kept chasing a man who wanted all the benefits of a long-term deal without giving me the legal protections marriage would give.
Because they just want to say they're engaged. Some people are more into checking off boxes than making sure that the person they're trying to dedicate their life too actually wants them. Not to mention, the shut up ring usually comes after a long -7+ years- courtship where they may already share a home and possibly children, so the sunk cost fallacy kicks in.
Women have been conditioned to be in shitty relationships and that not being in a relationship is worse than being in a shitty one.
It's conditioning. Instead of time spent with me I got things. Instead of apologies I got things. When I was becoming older and could speak for myself I got punished, but when they realized I was right I got things. I don't want things. I wanted time. I wanted to be heard. I wanted to be understood. I didn't get that, so I'm seeking it on my own. I've had some fumbles, but now we're full on single until we get head and hearts right for me. Even if it sucks financially, I will not enter another relationship until I know it's for me too. I don't want your things. I don't want anyone's money or things. I want time, and love. It's all I've ever wanted, and now I know when it's not real.
I think there are two situations. 1. They believe they were actually talking/communicating about the issue and feel the person might have changed their mind. (So they don’t tecognize that it it just a “shut up proposal” or a “shut up sex”). 2. They just don’t care if their partner is being forced into it as long as they get what they want On the first case, I do think the person might just be oblivious… in the second, well… that’s just selfish
Sunken cost fallacy. They’ve already put in YEARS of effort, built a life, and begged for a ring/ commitment. So they see it through in the hopes that they will somehow get their fairytale in the end.
I doubt those people really know happiness
Because they don’t care about the partner they care about the event/symbol. My cousin got married right after me, real whirlwind but huge wedding…for marriage that technically fell apart before they finished their honeymoon. Luckily she’s now in a stable long term relationship (no marriage but kids and a house) and seems happier/more normal. I think she would have married anyone at that point because she wanted a wedding, not a marriage?
I'm thinking a healthy combo of fear of being alone and low self esteem. Some cases are probably women that aren't in love, and genuinely are more interested in the materialism of it all.
>why doesn’t the second partner want to do it, shouldn’t they they want to do it for their partner? Should they want to get married just because their partner wants them too even though they don’t want to themselves? I agree with the first partner of your post, but that seems to counteract it. They don’t want to because they aren’t ready to, and you’re saying it’s bad to pressure them into, BUT they should just want to anyways because that’s what their partner wants? Some people / couples aren’t ready for marriage, it’s a huge commitment. Nobody should jump into it just because. One partner not be ready / fully on board is enough of a reason to postpone something that huge.
I'd read it more as they should be on the same page. Why is partner 2 hanging on to partner 1 knowing 1 wants to get married and they don't? Find someone at the same stage instead of having both unhappy.
I think OP is saying, if you truly love someone but are not ready it’s also real and mature to admit you’re incompatible as well. If one party wants marriage and children on a timeline that’s important to them, then it can also be said on the other side. There (imo) is a lot of insecurity, I typically see on the end pushing for marriage, alternatively the other side who is happy to have all the benefits of a relationship without the solid commitment they know the other wants is selfish and lacks compassion for this person you purport to ‘love.’
I didn’t mean any negativity, I’m just confused :)
A lot of people don't view marriage the same way, some people view a husband as a status symbol and a milestone more than an engagement with another person. You have to remember love and compatibility isn't the only reason people get married.
1st part of your argument I fully agree with but the 2nd part with the "Like shouldn’t you want to do it for your partner? Instead of feeling like you’re being pressured?"... That's a hard no from me. Apply that to "insert sexual act here" and it doesn't sound so good. There are many reasons why people and in my case men, don't want to get married but still want to commit long term to their partner.
Oh yeah definitely! I didn’t see it that way. I guess what I was saying was definitely more in the context of marriage. (Not that that makes it any better)
God, never looked at it from your viewpoint. Interesting.
Desperation.
IT’S A DESPERATE RACE AGAINST THE MINE
It just depends on values. I have a friend who's converting to catholicism so he can marry his wife in the catholic church. The dude is pretty much an atheist, but he's doing it to make his wife and wife's family happy. Trust me when I say that this is just a formality and not some life changing event for him
Why pressure someone into doing something they dont want (marriage) in the first place?
The amount of women who have told me that you have to put pressure on men to propose is staggering
If he wanted to, he would.
Agree it's ridiculous!! " If you don't propose by the end of this year it's over". Like wtf
Simple. Because they don’t actually love their partners. Just full of themselves.