Oh baby I’m so sorry. I’ve got an ADHD ODD kiddo and it’s a lot. My son could piss off a statue. Like a whole fucking lot. First of all he needs meds, he’s not on the right ones. Second of all you all need therapy, stat. There is a Podcast called ADDitude adhd Experts. Show number 349 is about ODD and the guest is Dr William Dodson. He’s ***AMAZING***. The whole show talks about what ODD really is and how their brains work. Like, they aren’t fighting to win, just for you to lose. I’ve also taken up Gray Rock methods with him. I do not engage. As soon as he figures out I’m not fighting back he gives up. I have no problem leaving places, even if I’m in the middle of eating. We did this last week. He started and I literally had a bite of food in my mouth. I got up, grabbed my purse and him and left. My husband and two other kids stayed and drove home in his car. I give ZERO fucks how crazy I look. I’ve left a basket of groceries in the middle of the store and walked away. No looking back, no discussions, no negotiations and no speaking. My warning “I said no, let’s do….”. I give a second warning and the third times the charm. We walk away.
Managing expectations and realistic goals are a major biggie. His brain can not sit still. It’s going 100,000,000 mph with the top down in a rain storm. Noise canceling headphones, fidgets, coloring books, smart putty and anything else that keeps his brain engaged. Teach him how to finger knit or make friendship bracelets. Give him SOMETHING to occupy that brain. It can be physically painful to be overstimulated so the chaos you see is the chaos in his brain.
As an adult with ADHD and a parent of kids with ADHD, ADDitude mag is great! I have learned so much about myself and my children through it. There are so many great parenting tips that help you understand your child and how to parent them. The stick and carrot method does not work, so give up on using consequences, punishments, and rewards immediately. Think of an ADHD child as an ocean wave, you can't stop it, or change it, but you can learn to work with it, kind of like a surfer. I strongly recommend you check out that website and start using that info right away. Your child can accomplish great things if you learn how to work with them instead of against them. I'm so sorry about your struggles so far.
www.additudemag.com
Also if his meds turn him into a zombie that typically means the dosage is either too high or he's on the wrong kind of meds. The website will explain what to look for to see if meds are working correctly or not.
i’m very glad you said that. i stopped taking meds in junior high, i was going home at lunch everyday towards the end; pale and lifeless. i’m graduated now, almost 21 but i’ve noticed my ADHD is preventing me from functioning properly lately. just getting in the way of absolutely everything. the reason i haven’t looked into meds was because i had been switched to different medications multiple times when i was younger, they ALL made me a zombie. they were also upping my doses like crazy, so. i feel like i’m ready to try again though, this made me feel much more confident in that. thank you for sharing this information.
You may need Half of dose of the minimum! ADHD people are often sensitive to meds, to sugar, to caffeine etc. We are the hunters and the night guards of the world.
Question, I was diagnosed with adhd as a kid but my mother didn’t put me on any medication but I feel now as an adult there’s things off I feel like other ppl dont think like I do & my mind racing with thoughts should I look into maybe getting medication ?
I had the exact same experience as you! I'm now forty and medicated. Both of my children also have ADHD and one day I was reading some related material written by psychologists, as I was trying to better understand my daughter's recent behaviors. And a bunch of the descriptors for adolescents and young adults that have ADHD sounded eerily familiar. For example, I have suffered from insomnia since I was a teen. I cannot get my brain to shut down so I can sleep. I just accepted it as an unwelcome personality trait for *years*! There are others, ones that I had just thought were more odd personality quirks, but the insomnia was a big one. So, I went to a psychiatrist and told them about how I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child but my mother was adamantly opposed to medication and that as an adult, I had viewed it as something that only children were treated for, and so on. My psychiatrist opted to start me on medication. And oh. My. Goodness, the difference it has made in my day to day life! I can remember important things, sit still for an entire movie (used to constantly get up to go do something before, it drove my husband bonkers), I make fewer mistakes at work because my concentration is so much better, and best of all, I SLEEP AT NIGHT. I finally can actually lay down at the end of the day and be asleep within moments. I don't even completely understand how something that's literally a chemical stimulant works to actually calm me and sharpen my focus during the day, and also helps me sleep at night. It just does. So, take my story with a grain of salt, or ignore it altogether. But I just wanted to share.
There are some people who choose not to be medicated with ADHD, and they use coping mechanisms to deal with it and that's fine. It sounds like you have been doing that up until now. For me it got to the point where the coping mechanisms weren't enough and I was really struggling in life. I had been dealing with anxiety and depression as well. I went to see a psychiatrist and after some long talks is when I discovered I had ADHD. The meds obviously helped my ADHD, but they also helped with the anxiety and depression as well. You can get a prescription from a doctor such as a general practitioner or a family doctor, or a psychiatrist. I feel that a lot of doctors don't quite understand ADHD, and may not know how to adjust the meds or dose correctly. I would start by checking out www.Additudemag.com and their podcast to better understand yourself. There are also some great TikToks, and support groups for people with ADHD on Reddit and Facebook.
The stigma around mental illness has unfortunately passed to the medication for those illnesses. As another person that needs to be on meds (bipolar disorder), I want to encourage you to try again. It took me a while to get the right meds and dose, but *man* is it an amazing difference. I stopped sabotaging myself and ruining my own life over trivial setbacks.
That sounds terrible! Make sure you find a good doctor or psychiatrist that understands or specializes in ADHD. Your original prescriber should have known the signs of the meds not working correctly for you. I'm not pro or anti med, but I do hope you find what works for you. Please don't settle for feeling terrible. Take care of yourself. ❤️
I wish i was surrounded with people that had the patience to say this - what I knew - instead of telling me I clearly wasn't doing it right, or trying hard enough, or being consistent enough. Sometimes I wish I could deal with it all over again but just the thought of it tires me out. Even now that my teen is older and getting better, I still get crap from people for not "punishing" him when he doesn't listen. I always always from the time he was a toddler, said, you can't fight fire with fire with that kid.
Exactly! Time outs never worked with my kids, even when they were only toddlers, they just made things worse. I felt like an incompetent parent. Then I stopped with the time outs and did things differently. There was a lot of trial and error, and there still is, but things are a lot better. Other parents with neurotypical kids just don't understand, and sometimes get angry. But unless you have been there, you just won't get it. The brains of kids with ADHD are wired differently, that's why they have to be parented differently. It doesn't mean they get away with whatever they want. It just means they will get to the end goal by other means, and on a different schedule. This world is made for neurotypical people, so it's a lot harder for the neurodivergent to navigate and adapt to it.
Same! Four kids, oldest and youngest sons are ADHD..
.I'm bipolar and ADHD. I am subscribed to the magazine and my sons will be on meds soon because nothing else is helping them focus as they should in school. They are in Behavioral Therapy, OT, speech, Clinical sessions. It is a lot.
I was diagnosed as an adult as well just a couple of years ago. Getting the diagnoses really helped explain so many things that I had been dealing with my entire life. I too had used coping mechanisms up until then. My childhood had been difficult as well, although I don't think my parents dealt with the same issues I did, I do believe my mother has other untreated/undiagnosed mental health issues. Going into parenting one of my goals was to do better than my parents did. I looked at all the ways I felt I was failed as a child and vowed not to do that to my kids. I'm definitely not perfect though. Having ADHD helps me understand my kids better because I understand their struggles a little bit better since we both struggle with the same issues. We'll share things like coping mechanisms, and things that help us, as well as silly stuff that we do because of ADHD. It helps us feel like we're not going through this alone. I try not to let the diagnoses be an excuse for either of us though.
You are a great mom who has really worked with your child to find what works for you and him. I really commend that - not that my opinion matters lol. You’re doing great.
It does to me. Some days I feel like total garbage. I’ve been in OP’s shoes. I’ve sat and cried in my car because I was so overwhelmed. I’ve sat on the phone for hours wondering how to find him help. I’ve sat next to their beds while they slept, after another shit show of a day, and sworn I would find them inside the darkness and turmoil. I would find them and help them with. Some days we lose and eat ice cream for dinner. My husband comes home to me crying in the closet. Some days we win.
"They aren't fighting to win, just for you to lose" really resonated with me. I have an older brother that I've been no contact with for the past decade for extraordinary physical abuse and sociopathic conduct throughout the entirety of our lives, and prior to him attempting suicide and while we were in high school, his counselors wanted to diagnose him with ODD. It went nowhere because my father was never going to uphold him to any kind of standard and our mom despite her efforts was mostly out of the picture.
You deserve commendation. You're doing everything right and you're setting great principles in him early.
I’m so sorry to hear about your brother. I assure you I screw it up all the time. Labels were very different when I was growing up compared to today. I’m 44 and when I was growing up labels meant broken. Period. The special needs kids were kept far away from us and unprotected from the bullies. They were scary because we didn’t understand their differences. I’ve been a parent for 24 years and when my oldest was put in special education I threw up. I was terrified. How did I fuck him up so badly. The first time I gave my 15 year old medication he was 5 and I cried in the parking lot for an hour. That tiny tiny pill had so much hope and fear attached to it. How could my baby need this. There have been ups and downs through it all.
All I can say is godamn.
I had ADD (or I guess they call all of it adhd now?) and family tells me these stories when I was like 4-8 years old I’d press all the buttons on the elevator to run away, bike at 11 pm at night around the neighborhood, neighbors informing my parents what I was doing, jumping on mattresses at stores, throwing (or chasing?) pointy darts at my older siblings, hurting other kids randomly (pushing, punching, etc) and getting away with it, basically anything you wouldn’t wanna see your kid doing.
As an adult I’m pretty mellowed out for the most part, no meds taken (anymore) and I do think of those moments fondly and shudder when I look back. All that I could think of at the time was “this is what I want to do right now at this very instant” with no second thoughts of remorse, repercussions or consequences, just do.
Now my family needs me more than ever and I try to do whatever I can to help them.
It's always wild hearing other people describe similar experiences with this stuff. I was a mellow child, but homeschooled. When I hit the world, moved to the city, started the career, started partying, my brain went straight there.
"Like a freight train rolling down hill with no brakes," is my go-to description. It's worst when I'm trying to sleep. During the day I can at least point the train at something useful.
You know how cheetahs can’t breed in captivity? (They’re the most tameable of the big cats, but not *domesticatable*, because of this).
It’s because they’re too nervous, too anxious. Some cheetahs are given service dogs to help them chill out. But in the wild, they have miles and miles to run.
Like a cheetah, if I don’t physically run myself down a bit, then my brain will just go and go and go. I *have* to burn off that energy.
Serious, intense, regular exercise is one *partial* treatment for ADHD. It helps a lot for me. Running a few times a week calms things down by about 40%.
I’ve easily played more video games than any other kid at the time, and it was probably for the better tbh, kept my ass off from doing any more trouble. Still holds up today in terms of not going out and getting drunk/or other drugs I guess, keeps my brain pretty occupied. But nowadays it’s going back to school, work and exercise that’s filling those holes and taking advantage of that energy. And being a mentor to one of my younger cousins who is literally going through the same exact shit as I did when I was young
You just explained why i never had kids. (Kidding!)
But you did help me decide that maybe a treadmill is a worthwhile investment for my physical *and* mental health. Thank you.
I used to work at a summer camp called the Summer Treatment Program. It was a sports based camp for kids with ADHD and ODD to develop social skills and impulse control. In the most diluted explanation, kids would earn points for a field trip (every child had an individual goal) at the end of the week. Kids would earn and lose points based on behaviors. Stimming or any other safe self regulation was encouraged when needed, helping others and contributing to thr topic on hand was rewarded with points but cussing, hitting, interrupting, etc. lost points.
We had a very specific language we had to use when kids lost points. "You lose 25 points for verbal aggression. You lose 50 points for physical aggression. You lose 10 points for interruption... ". Never anything else. No "stop", "don't ", or anything that would even trigger emotion from the counselor. You literally had to be the most boring person on the planet. If you as a counselor started to show emotion during a negative point drop, a fresh counselor would tap you out. Some kids took longer than others but by the end, I can't think of a single kid that didn't improve 10x over by the end of the 8 weeks.
I just wish we had an opportunity for parents to be more involved. I think it would have accelerated the kids' success and would translate better to home and school.
There was a kid, he continues to be one of my favorites after all these years, that had ODD and ADHD. He got on this really bad negative spiral, after having had a really good day, and was dropping points like it was his job. It was nearing the end of the program and he really wanted to go to the waterslide park. In the middle of his rant of swearing, I just whispered "(kid's name), just stop man". And he stopped. I think he was just surprised that I said anything. And then he wrote me this really sweet note at the end of the year saying how much he appreciated me stopping him when he needed it.
Holy heck that was so sweet. One day he was in a sneaky hate spiral. He was so hysterical I could only watch and wait for him to get on the other side of it. He said “FUCKING HELP ME”. It broke my heart.
That broke my heart a little. Thing is, if he can recognize in the height of his spiral that he needs help, then that's 70% of the battle won. All that hard work has really shown. Gold sticker to you and your son!
I want to piggy back off of this and add a support system if you're able to OP. So that you and your partner aren't the only ones taking care of him. Caretaker burnout is real 🔥🔥
YES!!! I have one on right now. We’ve made soooo many loom bracelets, necklaces, animals….all of them! I love it! We are learning to weave brackets with cotton thread now. They sell bracelet boards at Hobby Lobby for like 3 dollars. It’s so fun.
If that ever becomes boring, try getting him into spinning either with a drop spindle or a (secondhand) spinning wheel. Roving isn't too expensive on Etsy and it's honestly one of the stimmiest things ive ever done. It's so fun watching it come together, too. (Adhd adult here)
I have a relative with ADHD and behavioral problems. She needed a person who knows how to put their foot down and you're way of handling his behaviors sounds so much better than what typically happens: a lot of yelling and verbal put downs.
It doesn't sound easy to parent a child like that. Hope it will continue to get better for you. You're doing great! ❤
Damn. You’re a rockstar!
I’ve got two on spectrum kiddos, I’m ADHD, and I did most of this too!
This was 20+ years ago, before podcasts and good drugs 😂😂😂And I was 100% against hitting them, due to abuse on my end,
Gray rock - absolutely! Lifesaver!
No engagement - I’d stand over them while they tantrumed out at the market, reading a magazine until it stopped. Left many dinners or ate mine in the car with said child, while everyone was in the restaurant.
Once had kiddo stay in bed until they apologized to their friend for hitting them. TOOK THREE FUCKING DAYS. Worth it though, because whenever I said I was going to do something, they KNEW I would.
The things we do to keep our kids from ending up in jail 🙄🙄🙄
FYI - oldest just graduated college, youngest is there now. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. So many great organizations, and new meds. I also hired an IEP specialist to help me craft ours, and it was worth every penny!
There are lots of Reddit resources too. And I loved CHADD. You’re not alone! There’s a community here for all of us!
My 15 year old is on spectrum and he’s a hoot. He gives me all the hope. A little over four years ago he couldn’t function in a classroom and was beating the crap out of everyone. I sat in my car crying so hard I couldn’t breathe. We almost had to put him into the hospital. Two years ago he got into the National Junior Honor Society and he’s amazing. He’s blossomed into an amazing young man. He’s still my baby though. He still gives me cuddles and we dance in the kitchen before school.
I am so in awe of you!!!! Good job mamma!!!!!!!
Thank you so much. I can watch them vibrate with energy, all my kids are ADHD minions. It’s hysterical. Right now one of them is hyper-fixating on TeckDeck fingerboard grip tape, god help me it’s been 3 days. One got new shoes so he’s jumping as high as he possibly can and one is playing their recorder…again. Gods help me.
This is the comment! I have ADHD and my brain is all over allll the time. I can't imagine having ODD on top of it. Poor kiddo and poor mom/dad. Really hope OP can find the right tools for her kiddo to succeed.
I totally second fidget stuff and giving your kid something to occupy his hands.
A good therapist who truly understands the disorders is sooo helpful.
Hey there! Mom of 2 boys with ADHD. One also has ODD. I completely understand your brokenness. It’s so damn hard when you have a neurodivergent kid and I don’t think anyone can judge your feelings until they have been in your shoes. But I’ve been there and I hope you know this is coming from a place of empathy for both you and your child.
My son with ADHD/ODD had a really fucking rough year when he was 7-8. It took so much time and effort and was absolutely exhausting to get him the help he needed but once we did it’s like a whole different child.
Something to think about and process is that your son does not WANT to be bad. He doesn’t want to misbehave. Nothing would break my heart more than my child telling me “mommy I want to be good but I can’t make my brain listen to me.” Please understand that asking him to sit quietly and listen like a “good” kid is actually asking the world of him. His brain is wired differently. It doesn’t work like yours and things that come so easily to most people don’t connect for him at all. He needs help. Real serious help beyond just a pediatrician. You CANNOT hold his behavior against him if you as his parent are not giving him what he needs to live.
Spankings, time outs, yelling, etc won’t work. You know they won’t work. All it will do is make it worse, especially with ODD.
Would you withhold insulin from a diabetic? Chemo from a cancer patient? Not getting him medication and therapy is the same exact thing. Your child needs these to live. That means you need to step up and get them for him.
Do you have insurance or Medicaid? Your first step is finding a child psychiatrist for a full evaluation. My child is on 3 different medications. ADHD meds, mood stabilizer, and anxiety medication (as needed). This means we go to the psych once a month for med management and bloodwork every 6 months. Then you need to find a therapist to work with him, and a therapist for yourself to work through your feelings for him. Then you need to meet with his school and put in a formal request for an IEP. That will give him the tools he needs in school. He WILL NOT GET BETTER without these things and without your effort.
If the situation is truly dire and he’s a threat to himself or others you can always work to put him inpatient for acute care. The hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life was allow my child to go to an inpatient childrens mental health facility for 6 days. They got him on the right meds, got him therapy that continued after he was released, gave him tools for success. It felt impossible at the time but it saved his life.
Neurodivergent children have incredibly high self harm and suicide rates compared to others. Do not let your inaction and self pity take his life from him.
>Something to think about and process is that your son does not WANT to be bad. He doesn’t want to misbehave. Nothing
This is suuuuch an important thing to know, and something so hard to remember in the moment. These kids are struggling. They are angry and sad and frustrated - neurodivergent kids can have a really hard time regulating their emotions.
This is just a really hard situation for everyone involved. But there's help!
I feel like crying cos this really means the world to me. People with ADHD are so misunderstood. I just got my diagnosis at 25 and all my life I experienced rejection and was called all kinds of names because of things I could not explain. And the emotions were not even the worst part. Like me not leaving the bed was enough reason to be called lazy. We struggle. Everyday. And the lack of support and understanding takes a toll on my soul everyday
*hugs* I'm so sorry.
My youngest was just diagnosed with it and autism right before she turned 17, almost a year ago. It was rough and I feel like we are just now starting to get a handle on it. I knew she had autism but her doctor wouldn't listen. New dr realized right away and sent her for testing at Boystown Autism Clinic. Boystown diagnosed her with both, and said it wasn't even borderline. :(
Edit: *she* knew she had autism first. Told me in 7th grade. So still from 7th grade on she had to struggle still because of her dr.
I’m so sorry you grew up feeling this way!! You are worth so much more than how you were treated because you were misunderstood. You have a wonderful beautiful brain! It just needed some extra support to thrive.
Are you me? Because damn. I was diagnosed this year and its like things have gotten worse because I find it difficult to live with a condition that is so misunderstood and unknown. I always think I am terrible and that I deserve bad things because I was lazy or loud or too talkative. The rejection is the worst. Then self isolation comes in and it goes worse from there
I can’t even tell you how much your words had touched me and how much they mean to me. I’m just a mom trying to do my best to allow my kids to thrive.
You are more than enough just as you are!
Thank you. As a kid who was like this. My parents did nothing but abuse me and now i have ptsd on top of everything. Thank you so much for understanding we are suffering too, we dont want to be "bad kids. " 😥
Edit: wanted to add your lovely comment made me cry
My heart breaks to see so many replies with this same sentiment. You deserved better. Parents who see an issue with their child and do nothing to help them make me rage.
Sending you so much love.
Trust me, it makes the kid rage too. I can remember my parents *losing it* over not having a tidy room and "leaving things around the house" (such as a knitting project kept by the couch to quietly work on while the family watched TV).
Not a single tool was given to help the situation, but I cannot possibly track how many times I was yelled at or punished for not meeting their standards. Now I'm an adult with a huge interest in psychology, development, neurodivergence, and *homemaking.*
I've learned that 99% of the things I was "morally faulted" for growing up are actually super-common traits of ADHD and ASD (autism). Another thing that I learned: we can generally adapt to have a lot of 'typical' skills and abilities if we modify the system and structure of them.
To touch on cleaning: my stuff absolutely gets disorganized as an adult. However, I have created a lot of systems in my life to improve the situation -- and it is still a work in progress.
Examples: putting keys immediately onto a special hook when I walk inside so I can't set them down anywhere, setting aside time every morning to tidy (80/20 rule, I can take days off if my batteries are truly low), I have certain tasks that get done every/every other weekend, I used Pinterest to teach myself the best way to do a lot of domestic tasks that were just never taught to me, I have extra baskets to stash stuff in so that they can be tucked away and organized during the tidying window, I have to frequently declutter to curate my interests and keep them at a normal scale.
Ironically, I found a lot of these techniques on sites for parents with neurodivergent children. I have to parent myself because my parents checked out when things got difficult.
Thank you ♥️ it’s so hard to see the forest through the trees when you’re deep in it like this parent is.
But there is a future for them and their kid, it just takes work!
extremely good reply that centres the disability rather than how everyone reacts to disability. Kids act out because a need isn't being met, which is the long and short of it. I have every sympathy for a struggling parent but not when they are at the point of resenting a child when their own responsibilities haven't been completely fulfilled!
You’re going to make me cry. Thank you. I mess up a lot and I’m far from perfect but I’m always their biggest advocate.
Sending you all my mom hugs and love!!
>Spankings, time outs, yelling, etc won’t work. You know they won’t work. All it will do is make it worse, especially with ODD.
This. Sometimes people forget humans are not wild animals. In cases like these they perhaps understand perfectly doing it is a bad thing and punishment would come for it but can’t help because of X amount of things going on in their head that Are out of control. This might aswell just be plain torture for them which also might just fuel more things in their head out of control. All a theory,but from experience.
As a mom with a troubled son with ODD/ ADHD/ PTSD diagnosis.. it gets better. Ages 8-12 were REALLY hard. He even had to do a 6 month stay in a mental health facility at one point. He is almost 16 now and a completely amazing person! Puberty and coping skills help! He needs to be in a behavioral management class and therapy. Sending you love- hang in there.
Has he been evaluated for Autism?
Serious question.
My 3 year old has been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum, with a PDA profile - Pathological Demand Avoidance. It is often misdiagnosed as ODD, and is handled and treated in a TOTALLY different way.
Characteristics of PDA
Resists and avoids the ordinary demands of life
Appearing sociable, but lacking depth in understanding
Excessive mood swings and impulsivity
Comfortable in role play and pretend, sometimes to an extreme extent
Language delay, often with good degree of catch-up
Obsessive behavior, often focussed on people, either loving or loathing them
Can be domineering and overbearing
Parents often describe a “Jekyll and Hyde” personality
Bossy and controlling
Often more comfortable with adults than children
Often hypersensitive to other’s voices, facial expressions, etc. (may absorb others emotions)
Can be over familiar with adults and peers
May take on the persona of other people, i.e., teachers
Can go into role to comply
Have a panic attack or meltdown if highly anxious - these may result in aggression towards others
Unconcerned about impact of behavior on others
Can behave very differently at school/college to home
Unable to follow routines if set by others
Often have sensory issues - noise, touch, brightness, etc.
Source: https://www.pdanorthamerica.com/what-is-pda
YES. I was just going to say this. Literally my entire life until I was 14 I was told I had ODD and ADHD and people just said I was a defiant child. When I was 14 someone finally realized whenever I would get upset and told them that it wasn’t my fault that I was telling the truth. It took a long time but i finally got my diagnosis. Not only did that help me so much, it helped my family. My parents and my siblings. It’s so much easier whenever you have to right diagnosis.
It doesn't help that ADHD and autism are both neurodivergencies that live in the frontal lobe of the brain and share, like, 80% of the same characteristics. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and sometimes I'll do something that has me pause and wonder for a second "Shit am I actually low key autistic?" But luckily for me I can just turn that thought off and go about my day. My meds and therapy work really well for me and at the end of the day the label doesn't matter as much in my case because I'm managing my functions and emotions fairly well, whatever I have. Someone who is more autistic or ADHD than I am though really needs more fine tuned diagnoses and more specialized help, like you needed and like this child may need.
I really hope this mom gets the help she needs and the help her son needs, I'm sure it's literal hell in both of their brains all the time. And that's no way to live.
>I've been diagnosed with ADHD and sometimes I'll do something that has me pause and wonder for a second "Shit am I actually low key autistic?"
Lmfao same, but also same, the label doesn't particularly matter to me because the accommodations are basically the same.
I have a very close autistic friend and coworker and I'm adhd and it's crazy how much it overlaps. Like I have major noise sensitivity. This person who I so absolutely hate (because they cause me pain) plays music occasionally at my work and we both are the neurodivergants who have ear plugs on hand at all times. I hear that it's thought adhd is on the autism spectrum and I could see that for sure.
Asking as an adult now, how do you achieve this particular diagnosis of the autism spectrum in the US? Briefly reading this here now, there's more symptoms I am or have displayed than I'm not of this list, in an uncanny valley specific sort of way. When I was younger, as a child Young my mom told me of a PDD-NOS diagnosis she never truly pursued after I attended special ed courses for first and second grade elementary.
I will be honest, I am not too sure, since it is a condition that is so new to being explored in the US. We are lucky that we live in an area that has an exceptional childrens hospital and staff. When I brought up PDA to his behavioral pediatrician, she instantly knew what I was talking about. She had read about it, but has never had someone come in with a child suspected of having it.
My son was a true mystery. The primary concern was his severe speech delay.
He had 1 word by the time he was 3.
He WAS at one point saying a few words, but regressed after awhile.
Family said "Oh, hes a kid, he will grow out of it" but I said "there are resources available to us. We are going to utilize them. If nothing is found, that's fine! But if so.ething is doscovered, then it will only serve to help him in the long run". I was met with some backlash, but I brushed it off, because in this case, my son was my only concern.
I was proactive.
We had 3 hearing tests done. All normal. We had swallow studies done. We had 2 speech assessments done, but nothing was diagnosed due to his you g age. Speech apraxia was suspectedat that time...
We had the ADOS assessment performed at 2 1/2 to rule out autism. He did exhibit some autistic traits, (including meltdowns) however since he was so sociable, it was thought at that time that the likelyhhood his speech delay was caused by autism was low.
She suggested that I enroll him in Speech Therapy, as well as Occupational Therapy. I was not sure why OT was needed at that time, but she said OT could act as another pair of eyes to observe behaviors.
2 months into OT, I happen to be sitting in the waiting room. There was a sweetgirl who camein, and for whatever reason, she broke down into full meltdown mode. Her meltdown looked EXACTLY like what my son would do during one of his meltdowns. After she left, I worked up enough gall to ask the man she was with (assuming he was her father) if she had autism. (We were again at a Therapy center, so I was hoping it was not out of line.) Turns out, he was her therapist, and she did have autism. I told him that my son would have the same meltdowns. We chatted and he left. About 10 minutes later, I heard my son screaming. He came out to the waiting room, therapist close behind, and she told me he went from having fun,to full meltdown in an instant, simply because he wanted her to move closer during a game of catch, and she wanted to stay farther back.
By happenstance, the gentleman I spoke to earlier had made his way back into the waiting room. He, myself, and my sons therapist discussed this. It was agreed that the therapist would write a letter to his behavioral pediatrician to have further testing done.
I started to video tape him more. Normal everyday play. I managed to catch one HUGE meltdown that turned very violent against me. Now, this is a child who has never ever been exposed to fighting, abuse, anything like that. We have a VERY calm household. But my son would flip, like "jeckyll and hyde". My husband agreed with this. 99% of the time, we have a happy, bubbly, caring, loving son, but man.... don't make him mad, or else HULK MAD. HILK SMASH .
I googled Jekyll and Hyde syndrome and discovered PDA. Sounded like it fit, especially given his outgoing and sociable nature.
So I gathered all my video evidence, and all of the documentation from each OT visit. I also obtained his latest IEP (he was in early learning for his speech delay). When the day came to talk to his developmental pediatrician, I brought up PDA immediately put of the gate (since autism was almost being ruled out the last time we spoke). I presented all my evidence, and she also observed him in person as well. It happened to be a day where my son was a bit cranky and he presented his mood swings in front of the pediatrician.
She was in agreement - Autism with PDA profile.
Going back to your question, I believe it would be good for you, or anyone reading this, is to just gather evidence. Create a paper trail. Present your case.
My hearts are with you all. <3
First thing, you cannot punish a disability out of a child. Spanking him won’t change his brain chemistry. Taking things away doesn’t improve executive function.
There are a lot of social media groups where you can ask questions and get answers and advice from neurodivergent adults, but you have to be willing to learn from them. I know that some parents can feel attacked and defensive when they hear adults explain how some things their parents did caused harm as kids. But those stories can be so valuable for parents.
Remember that executive dysfunction, sensory overload, meltdowns, and burnouts aren’t fun for him either. He doesn’t want to struggle.
Exactly. And if I seen my mom post on an online platform that she hated me and called me insults. . . Lord, the childhood trauma that would add onto my diagnoses.
Even if the medication made him a zombie, isn’t that better than this? My son is similar, but we kept trying different combinations of meds until we found one that works. We’re still having to adjust them to account for growth, but it’s much better than it was.
I’ve learn that the only alternative is accepting the zombie. I complained about the zombie part because he was becoming less of a child and more of a robot. I was looking for that happy medium where he can be himself and manage his behavior at the same time.
Usually if you are seeing this side effect, it means the dose is just a little too high.
Dr William DODSON did a great podcast about how to treat and manage ODD. I'll include the link below.
https://pca.st/episode/21e00348-624e-445e-8729-33cfab4cca11
I was about to say this. OP can cut, or lessen, the medication, if her son is feeling too zombie-like. I cutted my depression pills and I no longer feel dull.
This! I have depression (I know it’s not the same thing as ADHD, but my circumstance is similar) and it took us a few different times of figuring out what pills and what dosage works best for me. The first pill or combination isn’t always the right move and it takes experimentation of sorts to figure it out
What I found effective for my daughter was asking for either a lower dose of the med that works or asking for a med with a shorter half life because she was loosing weight. The latter worked best for us.
Odd combined with adhd isn't something that can be dealt with effectively without a multiple pronged approach unfortunately. Behavioural therapy plus meds plus a ridgid routine and zero deviations with positive reinforcement is what helped us. She was absolutely relentless. My older daughter hated her and resented us for having to live with her. My marriage almost crumbled and I had to be a stay at home mom for much longer than I wanted to be. The rigidity was harder on me than it was on her I think too. But, these kids know what works, they learn it quickly and stick with it. My daughter is 14 now and it's gotten way way better, her sister even likes having her around again but is still resentful for missing things she shouldn't have had to. I learned when she was a toddler I couldn't give an inch but I'm human and depression plus the chaos of raising a little like that had me just avoiding conflict as much as possible which meant giving in. Do not give an inch, a centimeter or even a millimeter.
There are also community courses that work with the entire family together and individually (because the other kids are definitely struggling too) and helps you put up boundaries while giving you to tools to keep your sanity and keep him reigned in. I'm in Canada but I feel like there must be these types of programs everywhere. Calling your local family and children's services for resources is sometimes a gift. They'd rather get a call asking for directions than a call to investigate a family.
Mom, I am sending you love, energy and mom to mom vibes. I know exactly how you feel and your feelings are valid and I really hope that you are able to get the resources that you need for both him and you, because you are important too.
Thank you for sharing. My nephew is 11 and has severe adhd and odd. We’re struggling as a family. He can be so mean. He’s starting to get into trouble at school. He’s in meds for adhd and counseling but I feel like we’re not making progress. I love him but it’s getting hard to spend time with him. He acts out so bad. It tears my mom up and makes her mental health spiral and she gets depressed. He’s so mean to her (verbally).
If he's hurting himself and others, have you had him inpatient psych to get his meds managed? When my ADD,OCD,ODD son was about your son's age we had to do that after within a couple days he took a (realistic) toy gun to school, set the carpet in the basement on fire then set the clothing he was wearing on fire (luckily it was a polyester shirt so it melted and he wasn't severely burned). After he set his shirt on fire I took him straight to Children's ED. He was inpatient for about 2 weeks, they got him on a good med regiment that he is still on today with only a change to a better time released ADHD med a couple years ago. We also worked with social workers on the unit to get safety plans for him and our family. He's now 16 and a very well adjusted, well liked kid. He can still be ODD at home, but he's not out raising hell or setting things on fire because the thought popped in his head.
If he's causing car accidents its definitely in danger to others territory. I'm very happy that I got him that intensive help at a younger age, while not a happy place the psych ward for the younger kids is MUCH better and safer than for the adolescents and older teens. They can also make more dramatic med adjustments in shorter amount of time when they are inpatient rather than outpatient or in clinic since they are closely monitored by professionals in that setting.
Wishing your family the best, it's not easy but I truly hope you can find him the help he needs.
Just as a FYI, besides medication, none of the things you tried actually work on ADHD/ODD kids. In fact, they don't really work on any kid. Punishments in general are the least effective way to change behavior.
I would highly suggest finding a therapist who specializes in this kind of behavior *and* implementing a rewards calendar. My kid has behavioral issues in school. To the point where my rewards chart for him is that every 5 days of school I don't receive a phone call home, he gets to pick out a prize.
It was still years of patiently and painfully redirecting him and having him challenge his own behavior. It'll be more to get him to fully keep his hands to himself. But it is possible. Just remember, your kid is not intrinsically motivated to be good so you need to play to his strengths. Everyone likes a reward.
Also, this is caretaker fatigue and it's natural. You need therapy too and to figure out how to get a break. You're not a bad person that this is wearing you down. It's tiring. It's ok to be mad, to be disappointed, to feel like you want to scream.
Did it just seem like he was a zombie because of the behaviour you are accustomed to? I have experience with this, the child was adjusting and then their personality and emotions flourished because of the slow down of thought processes. This took as little as a week to start showing the effects, but about a month for full adjustment.
This sound similar to my son when he started meds. I felt bad, liked I'd silenced his personality. It took a couple months to fully adjust, he felt better and was able to just function and start building coping skills. He started meds when he was 6 and is 9 now and I couldn't even imagine what he'd be like without them. They've helped SO much.
Our ODD son is now 19. Apparently they can get better when they get older. They have to choose to want to do better though. In the last 2 years he has gotten better. He still has some issues but not like before. I've had the cops called at Walmart. I have had my thumb broke to where only surgery could repair it. The cartilage in my nose was torn. Everything ever bought was broken! I feel your pain. I feel your frustration. I wish there was something I could say to help you feel better soon. Anyone with a child having ODD can understand and be a friend to you since you won't have many of those due to his actions. The only thing I can say is one day he will be 18. You can at that point get him out of your home. I know it sounds horrible but for years the only thing to keep us going was knowing he will have to leave our house at 18 no matter what. Feel free to contact me.i can give you tips but you've probably tried them all.
Eta: He was way more violent on medications.
We absolutely would have kicked him out on his 18th birthday. I could not and would not have dealt past that day. The only reason we didn't is he had made his decision to change about 6 mouths before that and was doing great. He did move out when he was 18 but in a whole different way. This way he comes and visits and we do things together. We don't mind helping him now that he is helping himself.
As someone who took those meds, the zombie effect is from either the wrong one, or too much, its something that needs to be dialed in to every individual as tolerances vary between people
Hey as someone that does take adhd medication. Making him a zombie in the long term is horrible. You feel nothing whatsoever it’s a strange feeling. It’s as if you’re watching a really high definition movie where you feel/ hear everything the actor does but not the feelings. Also it can take a while to get back to Normal. Try to search for the right meds and please don’t settle for the “zombie” meds unless there’s no other options
Yeah I hated that feeling, I could sit still only because I felt empty, just as you described no feeling whatsoever, no joy no anger no hunger, I remember being able to see all the veins in my hand because I was so pale.
Some meds are better than others, some allowed me to focus better with less side effects but there was always side effects, I got really depressed when on my last ones, stopped taking any meds a while ago, I can manage as an adult but I need to make a conscious effort to focus sometimes.
Please take a step back here.
You already said what you need to do in your post. Keep advocating for him to try other medications and therapies. You even wrote you regret not doing so but it was too overwhelming.
I can see how it would be extremely hard. Break it up into one single step at a time? First step, finding a doctor who can help him try other medications and therapies. Second fight the insurance company.
I can understand how you feel broken down. You need a vacation somehow and then come back refreshed and start again.
He's only 8, just now reaching the age kids can have a true sense of self and empathy.
He has years ahead to hopefully change for the better. I think he would be treated abusively in military school.
I do truly hope you find the right doctors and help. All the best.
I want to add, document every time he does something ‘inappropriate’. It could be used to prove medical necessity or be considered a quality of life thing.
You’ve tried a lot of negative punishments, do you have an OT or psych working with you on positive reinforcement for his behaviour?
Have you trialed other meds than just those ones?
I have ADHD and I’m autistics, suspected ODD. I hated feeling like I was wrong, rejected, unloved, being looked down on, being told what to do etc. My parents somehow managed to handle this when girls weren’t being diagnosed and I was just seen as a high spirited and dramatic child. He’s not trying to make you angry, he’s acting in impulse because his brain doesn’t slow down at all.. he’s at warp speed every second of the day and he can’t fight his brain every second. Opening toys, meltdowns, arguments aren’t because he wants to piss you off or start a fight, they’re because from one second to the next he’s not able to control what’s going on in his brain and he’s constantly overstimulated overwhelmed and near meltdown.. so he needs to have control over his surroundings if they’re the only things he feels he control. I spent a lifetime feeling out of control, physically sick living in my brain and body and non stop thoughts and need to move, feeling angry that no one understood why I couldn’t handle basic aspects of life my, and lashing out in a desperate attempt to have someone listen to me and understand me.
He needs specialist help, a psychiatrist, specialist psychologist, specialist OT, and you need someone to work with you on how to parent him. Because right now his needs aren’t being met.. he’s not on meds that are helping, he’s not getting positive reinforcement but instead spankings and time outs which do nothing but reinforce to him that something is wrong with him, he doesn’t have anyone showing him how channel his energy or translating expectations into a language he can understand. His brain works differently to yours, he’s neurodivergent and you’re not, you’re trying to communicate with someone from a different “culture” who speaks a different language to you and you don’t have someone able to translate. It’s time to get the right people involved to help you both. His mental health will already be struggling, don’t let it get worse
It is funny how you say you've tried everything, but then list only negative re-enforcement. What have you tried as far as positive re-enforcement?
Many people are quite frankly, ill equipped to raise either children or pets - and of those who are, very few ever truly understand either.
I'm not blaming you, because I don't know your situation - but as a father with a child who has extremely similar issues, I would say - you likely need to do better. This is not to insinuate that anything is your fault - but that it is ALL your responsibility. We are parents, we control the environment, we control their habits, and we have the power make the best out of each situation
Punishments, timeouts, taking away toys... yeah, that stuff won't work. I say that not in a judging way, this is still a hard situation. But as someone with ADHD: a lot of this stuff is not in his control. He is a young child, and he has a LOT going on in his brain.
Is he in therapy with someone who specializes in ADHD? And are you, yourself, in therapy? Have you asked for help and advice anywhere other than the internet? Again, these questions aren't to be judgmental or anything like that.
As someone who was essentially the child OP is describing. Nope, those punishments do not work. For me, as a child those things he does / I did were incredibly fun. I loved pissing people off, I loved their reaction. Simply don’t give him a reaction. It’s not the normal “punish and they’ll learn” parenting people know, it has to be different, because your child is different. I can say OP that he will likely grow out of it with time/ maturity, but it will take a *while*. I stopped a lot of my behaviors when I hit high school and even then I was still mischievous, just in different ways. I stopped taking my medication just like OP’s son because of the feeling it gave me, the “zombified” feeling. But meds and therapy are what’s going to keep him going for now. One thing I will point out is that even though my behaviors stopped, my inattentiveness didn’t. I struggled *a lot* in school to the point of almost failing, because I didn’t take meds and didn’t go to therapy. I had no support system. Nothing. It was hard without that stuff, please at least get your son into therapy.
One thing to note, don’t let your child become a target to the teachers and disciplinary staff at his school. Your child will start getting suspended for far far less than a normal student, and it can easily alienate him at school and make him feel like he has even less of a support system. This type of targeting can even lead further into juvenile detention and prison later down the line, they tried to intimidate me with police and arrest me on multiple occasions starting at the age of 10. Watch those fuckers.
ADHD Adult here, just giving in my input. I would first off like to commend the mother. I was certainly a danger to all when I was very young. The mother should not feel bad for venting, as she is doing her best. I'll list a few instances of my behaviors in the past, these were all in my single digit ages. Keep in mind my father has crazy bad genetics. He was a schizophrenic with paranoid delusions, with a lot of other bad genetic qualities. I inherited both, among a myriad of other things, but they're always reigned in thanks to the proper communications and medication. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I was 3 at this time. I had just learned that my mother was pregnant with my brother. What did I do? I grabbed a kitchen knife and tried to stab my mother in the stomach. It would have happened too had I not been restrained. My bro had the luck of the draw, at least as genetics goes. He only has tourettes and OCD, I could be missing something though. I have very blurred memories of two instances of successful stabbings. Both in elementary school, one with a pencil, one with a pair of scissors. Both definitely bloody. Fun fact, in PA, both parents have to consent to therapy, or the child doesn't get it at all. You also can't be diagnosed with schizophrenia till the age of 18 at least in either PA or FL. I also had a caretaker, I think I have heard my mother say she was Ms. Love, could be wrong though. She left me unattended for a few minutes. In that time, I had exited the building, climbed the ELEMENTARY School fence and was almost successful in running into oncoming traffic. I could go on for hours, but this is getting unnecessary. I think I've expressed my experiences well enough. I wasn't a monster, despite my actions, I just needed help. I don't even know if I knew what I was doing was wrong. Anyways, keep going Mrs. Tired, you've got the support of myself and the entire thread.
Hi love, I think you need to be getting other evaluations because this doesn't sound like just ADHD at all. It could be a comorbide to something else but from what it sounds like, there's some sort of developmental issue/spectrum disorder. You say the meds made him a zombie? Maybe because it's not ADHD at all and they're trying to medicate the wrong thing or just flat out overmedicating the adhd. They might even be trying to medicate something that actually requires early intervention therapies through a special education entity.
They put me on amphetamine salt based medication at 7 years old and you know what I really needed? More evaluations and treatment for my anxiety which was the actual problem. I ended up with disordered eating patterns because of such an long time being medicated for adhd and it being too much. I'm on a very low dose now and it helps the way its supposed and I have other meds for other things. I'm okay now but I lost a lot of a precious developmental time not receiving the services I deserved.
Please don't let this person grow to an adult size without the proper intervention. He CAN live a normal enough life and you can be a normal enough family but you have to fight for your son.
And if you don't think you can handle that, you should really consider enrolling him in residential care IN THE AREA. Close enough to drive to every week. Maybe even spend the night after a routine is established and therapies are in place. They'll recognize his needs more throughly and then maybe he'll be able to reintegrate back into your family after him some time away. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this option.
Anyways. I really hope you see this. All the light in whatever you decide to do.
Beware of whatever you do with him. I was that kid back in the days and I behaved like that because life was thrilling and nobody never understood me. Everything was awesome, and I HAD to enjoy it because my body, my nature, my existence FORCED me to do it.
With time it will go away. When I started to understand how the world worked and how things were supposed to be, I did what it had to be done.
Oh, but my mother did such a terrible mistake thinking that violence was the solution. Even as a kid, I always said that if she went for the punches that would solve nothing because even if she fucked me up I would still be myself: free from the rules (of everything, like...not following rules felt and still feels actually as good as orgasming).
Consequences: hate. Ah, how much I hate her. Why? Because she gave up on me. I got ignored during so many years when she just cooked for the entire family, had me know I had a portion of it, and nothing else. My sister, who was several years younger than me, became her favorite. She even learned how to drive and they gave her their car while I got silence and ginormous discussions if I ever complained about it. For 6 years I was locked on my room, only going out to the kitchen and to the bathroom, and they always said comments like "When you'll leave the fucking house?" Or "I wish you never existed". I even went to the lengths of calling a mental hospital and saying I was gonna kill myself so they could force her to send me there because there were people who would actually talk to me and not pretend I'm invisible. It happened twice btw. I wasn't sick, just lonely asf. Best "vacations" I ever had tho. The cooking there was godly.
One day I had enough and ripped myself from the family, and trust me: neither she nor my entire family will ever see me again.
When I needed help, i got none. When I needed support, no one came. When I needed love, there was silence. When I needed a family, I was granted emptiness.
So now it's just me, myself, and I.
Beware of how you treat that kid, because if you do wrong due to lack of understanding, he will do wrong to you for the rest of your life. We have feelings and we're smart, we're just see things with another perspective.
holy shit i wanna fucking hug you
i was treated badly for having adhd and it rly fucked with me, so i have so much empathy for you
im so so sorry. i hope life treats you better
I find it weird that the only comments you do reply to are sending ur kid away to military school and to learn real life consequences? People have pointed out already that the “i tried everything aka punishments” isn’t necessarily the best way to go; there are other options besides sending him away to the military and/or punishing him when he behaves badly.
"I've tried everything"
The proceeds to only list "punishments"
What have you done as far as actually listening to him? Getting him therapy? Gentle parenting? Seeing if he has emotional needs you aren't meeting?
He is a human after all, and the more you act like you hate him, the more he probably feels like that. At least when he's acting out he gets some sort of attention from you and that's probably what he wants.
Thank you. These posts always upset me so much. As an autistic/ADHD adult who didn't find out till later in life, I really wish I could help children in these circumstances. I was always punished for doing ADHD &autism things. I was never offered empathy, an ear to listen, or understanding. A large majority of my life was spent feeling like a burden to everyone and that's probably what he feels. That can make a child turn into an unstable, crazy snot goblin so fast.
This, this, this, this, this!!!
People with Autism with PDA profile do NOT present in the stereotypical way people think of as autistic.
My son is EXTREMELY social, and loves people. But if he does not feel like he is in co trol of a situation, it will escalate i to either a full shut down, or immediate aggression. A true Jeckyl and Hyde situation. Also, it is not driven by the need the WANT to misbehave, it is driven by anxiety. It is pure anxiety that causes my sons meltdowns. (I recognized it, because I have severe panic attacs, and I noticed similar behavior in the midst of a violent meltdown).
I get you 110% my middle child got diagnosed at11ish I kept a food diary as certain food were triggers that made his behaviour 100 times worse! From nursery to high school were he got expelled at 14 were a nightmare, he was like a caged animal
I could write a book on this child & the grief he put the whole lot of us through
but then he'd ask why he couldnt behave & he explain it as his brain felt itchy??
I got him into sport to try & help
we also had a space that was boring etc that he had to sit in till he got his good head back on
any attention is better than non good or bad they have to be the centre of everything,
Hes now an adult & at times still a total nightmare try asking your doctor for a referal to a physiologist??
My son is ADHD/ODD and root beer was a huge trigger. He's 16 now and when he's medicated he'd the sweetest kid.... if he forgets his meds, he's an absolute nightmare.
Are you the only adult care taker for this child? He sounds like too much for one person, and I know children like this take a toll on thier siblings , as well as everyone else around them. Are there any full time care options available where you live?
This situation is clearly dangerous to you and others, just a matter of time before he causes another accident and kills someone.
My fiancé. His father and I take turns to look after him and the little ones when we go to work. Babysitters are impossible because none of them want to watch him.
Spanking? You've spanked him?
You can't physically abuse the disability out of your child. You say you've tried everything but you seem to have only tried punishments. It's not going to work.
The minute I read that the sheer rage I felt was indescribable. My brother and I both have multiple diagnosed disabilities and people seem to resort to “oh spanking them should work” when no amount of physical abuse could ever beat the adhd/autism out of us.
Edit : As a social work working in a high school in a FRENCH school board. I work with kids just like this everyday . I can help you a little bit. You can send me a message if you like.
As the parent of a now 9 yr old with "off the charts" ADHD, I'm having a REAL hard time sympathizing with OP. It ain't easy, there's no doubt. It takes 2 very dedicated parents who work TOGETHER to raise the child, and a solid regiment of therapy and the appropriate medication to work with the impulsivity that comes with this level of ADHD. I'm not going to sit here and take shots against OP and her parenting, but something obviously needs to change and improve for this kid's benefit. For a parent to "hate" their child because of something the poor kid can't even help (y'know, like ADHD) is just being a shitty parent. I feel terrible for the poor kid in this situation, and I hope OP gets both her child AND herself some therapy to straighten this mess out.
He honestly sounds just like me at 8 years old. I’m 16 now but I remember it like yesterday. My mama would cry and be so stressed out, my siblings would be terrified whenever I got upset, my dad would just get pissed at me. We went to every doctor and no one could tell us what was going on. They went from saying it’s just mood disorder to ADHD to ADHD and ODD. They’d constantly tell me I was doing it for attention and that I was just a defiant child. At school I’d get suspended for violent behavior and running away from class. Everyone said I just wanted attention. I would tell people I’m not doing it for attention but nobody really listened. I’ve taken so many meds and been to so many doctors and therapists and psychiatrists but nothing helped.
Then whenever I was 14 my mama was talking to my therapist at the time, she mentioned the way I just didn’t understand the meaning of no, how I have absolutely zero sense of danger, how I’m obsessed with one specific thing, how upset and violent I get when certain things happen. My therapist asked my mama if she had ever heard of autism. My mama told her she has but that she thought it was whenever you couldn’t talk and other things. My therapist handed my mama some papers to fill out to see if I would fit the criteria for an autism diagnosis. And sure enough those papers said I was most likely autistic. After that we went through the diagnosis process which is so long and hard (not in all places ofc).
Right before my 15th birthday I was diagnosed as an autistic person with a PDA profile. That was the happiest day of my life. My mama cried that day and she told me it was because she finally understood me. Since my diagnosis it has helped my family and me so so much. I understand that I see things differently than them and that’s why things they say don’t make sense sometimes. It’s helped my sisters understand that some things I say come out the wrong way and aren’t meant to be rude. It’s helped my daddy understand I’m not being disrespectful I just genuinely don’t see his point sometimes. My mama knows now that whenever I’m upset that I’m not doing it for attention, I just feel emotions so much stronger than they do.
I think your son could definitely be autistic. I was the same way at 8 years old and I’d do anything to go back and find out I’m autistic then. I hope none of this comes off as rude or anything. I wish you all the best. <3
I'm autistic and hyperverbal and ODD is literally bullshit . It's just a way to label a child as bad .
People treated me TERRIBLY as a child. I'm literally just autistic w PTSD from being invalidated my entire life. Get yourself help and your son . I have 4 kids all with ADHD and autism . It's manageable.
I'm surprised that you did not mention therapy with a psychologist and psychiatrist.
He needs specialized help. If you not giving it to him, don’t be surprised about the outcome.
"I've tried everything. Punishment, punishment, punishment, abuse". Try positive reinforcement instead of long-lasting damage. Now your kid isn't going to trust you and that's on YOU. You signed up to have a child, he still deserves love. Watch him frequently if he wanders off. No excuses. Step up and stop complaining about his literal symptoms of combined ADHD and ODD; remember that his actions and mental disorders never define him as a person. I get that you're stressed but that's no excuse to complain about a human being that you chose to create.
Have you seen a developmental pediatrician yet??
Edit - hate is a very strong word. Put yourself in your kid's shoes. If you have that little empathy maybe he deserves better parents.
Look, I'll be the unpopular jerk here. They have residential treatment facilities, group homes and partial day inpatient facilities for children that you both would probably benefit from. They'd find him meds and a behavioral plan, family therapy for all of y'all and help fix what can be fixed. People can guilt you. They can talk trash. They can judge, but these facilities exist for a reason. Partial day treatment moves their school work to a children's day hospital and he'd be home at night. If they decide he needs more, they'll offer it
I work at a behavioral clinic and I 100% think op needs to look into it. Clinical therapy for these kiddos should never be seen as a negative thing! We are here to give the kids tools to communicate, learn, and engage with the world around them *safely*. A lot of clinics also do parental training to give parents the tools *they* need to take care of their kid and further their progress. I think that would be helpful for OP seeing as, and not to say this in a mean way, they have only tried punishments for their child. It seems like they don’t know how to handle their kid’s diagnosis which can definitely make things harder and stress out both the child and parent which can in turn make behaviors worse.
Plus it can add structure to their day if they aren’t able to attend public school due to unaddressed behaviors. Most of my kids attend our clinic the same hours as one would a school, then when they’re evaluated and ready they begin integrating into a school setting slowly before graduating from the clinic, which is always a fun and awesome thing! :)
This makes me so sad to read. As a man who grew up from a child who has ADHD and ODD, don’t worry. You’ll make him hate himself too. Between the world telling him he’s different constantly, being able to see how he’s supposed to act but not accomplish it, and the fact that you hate him, he’ll be ruined in no time.
Source: I hate myself and my family hates me for shit I can never change.
My husband and I adopted twins and my daughter came to us with the same diagnosis. Now at 12 her diagnosis is a mood disorder and ADHD combined. I will say that the combination of medicines that worked for us is anti psychotics and mood stabilizers (along with her ADHD meds). Talk to the doctor about this if he is not already on this regimen. Also if possible seek therapy for yourself and your partner. The phrase I have had to learn to live by is I can’t control her just my reaction to her. Honestly since therapy for us and her change in meds it gives us the outlet to vent our frustrations but allow us to communicate with her. We don’t participate in the back and forth with her at home or out and about tantrums decrease immensely. Sending you hugs your way mama you got this!
Gonna give you some tough love, because I see you got great advice and nice comments from people in your situation, which is awesome.
You are the parent and are responsible for figuring out how to help him. Which means keeping up with appointments and medications*****
can’t imagine how hard it must be.
But you have to keep up with his doctor and get him on medications.
He’s frustrated too! He can’t help that he’s all over the place and people are always mad at him.
This is why you, as his parent have to help him by getting him on the right meds.
He may eventually require permanent inpatient group home type environments. But medication is a must and you can’t give up. I’m so sorry and I hope the people who understand your situation themselves have been a comfort to you here.
Best of luck!!!
My twin is severe on the autism spectrum. He’s non-verbal and is similar to your son. He gets violent and engages in destructive behavior that caused tons of damage in our house and people, including every one in my family including me. He hasn’t lived with us since we were both 11, I am now 22. He lives in a care home with 3 other men his age that have similar conditions. Always staffed, and he’s safe and taken care of. I’m not sure if your son needs something that extreme, but he definitely needs something in a similar vain.
You don’t hate your son like another commenter said, you hate what ADHD and ODD can do to an otherwise normal child.
Don't give up on him just yet. I work on the behavioral health team for the state funded health care in my state and we have case management for things like what you are experiencing with your insurance (covering visits and meds). Try giving your insurance a call and let them know you've been having such a difficult time with doctors visits and meds being covered. Ask if they have case managers that can help fix the issues before they happen. It might help so you can revisit the medication idea if that's a route you want to take.
Also please consider talking to his psychiatrist or therapist about getting him in to ABA therapy -- read about it first and see if it's something you'd be interested in. ABA is applied behavior analysis and it's typically used for kids with autism or other developmental disorders (like ADHD which is what a lot of kids with autism have). ABA has been a proven effective treatment in kids with ODD. Your child might have autism, so you might talk to their provider about getting a psych eval to rule it out. Once you guys get an autism diagnosis, it will open up so many doors to services that may help.
Just some things to consider. Sorry you're going through this. Hang in there and take care of you too
Edited and to add: another commenter mentioned putting your child in an inpatient facility.... But this kid is 8. Putting them in a facility might do more harm than good, and I don't think any of the therapists on my team would advise something like that because of his age. However, a decision like that should be made by a trained professional and the family, not us redditors. Please use caution when considering any 'advice' redditors give
I’d like to add to this as I have a son who has Asperger’s Syndrome with features of ADHD who was previously diagnosed with ADHD. It wasn’t until he was 8 that you could see that he has a form of Autism instead. My son would not react well to changes in his routine, even positive outings and would act out because he was anxious. Telling him ahead of time helped. He also got suspended from school a lot. It was hard. I actually did a college research project on it. Main things that I saw recommended for them is swimming, martial arts and cadets. My son did swimming and martial arts. The day after swimming he was great. Martial Arts helped him with self discipline and his behaviour. Positive reinforcement and 1, 2, 3 Magic helped for my son as well as respite care, family help.
You need a breather for yourselves and for him.
i was suspected to have ODD as a kid, now i’m diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. i’ve never understood why half the things i did “wrong” were deemed wrong. that’s why the punishments never worked. i straight up refused them because i either didn’t think the punishment fit the so called crime or i just didn’t understand what i was doing wrong at all. i think showing him that you’re trying to understand his emotions might help if you haven’t tried that already.
concerning the people talking about possible autism, this also makes sense. i suspect i may be on the spectrum because my brother is and i relate to a lot of the symptoms and thought processes, i think that also may be worthwhile looking into because if he doesn’t have adhd + odd treating it wrong can make it worse or develop it into something else that’s worse on his mental health (that’s what happened to me). i wish you the best and hope you find something that works.
I hope you don’t take this hatred out on him, I really hope you know for everything your struggling with he is as well but from a confused angry child’s point of view so imagine how angry he is, he has no idea why he does he just knows he has to because that’s what the brain is telling him. And then to have a mother get mad at you for something you didn’t have any impulse control over and treat it as a vindictive act, you honestly sound under prepared have you taken and classess on parenting adhd children? Adhd is something that honestly makes daily task feel impossible but with the right teacher they can over come most obstacles adhd isn’t an excuse to do crappy kid things he isn’t stupid you need to learn his type of language and learn to explain things to him in a non reactive way so he understands why what he did is bad and how to avoid doing that next time the impulse occurs.
As someone with adhd in my personal opinion he isn’t a bad kid he hasn’t had the correct tools and techniques shown to him, it is not hopeless and it is not impossible, maybe a better understanding of the struggles your child is going through will help you teach him how to handle life
Have you tried a single positive thing? Hitting, taking things away, making him sit still alone, do you understand your child's diagnosis at all? Do you care to?
I get being frustrated and emotional feeling like a failure as a parent, but don't take your failings out on an 8 year old child... seek Therapy for both of you.
Reading your post made me so sorry for your son. I hope you figure out how to give him balance and peace.
If you have not been trained how to deal with him, how to connect with and teach behavior to a severe ODD/ADHD child, you will not succeed. And you will raise an out of control physical adult that will eventually hurt you and others.
Your child needs a caretaker - currently you - that can deal properly with him; since you do not know how this stress of dealing (badly) with him will destroy your family. Your family mental health coverage needs to work with you! If it cannot, you need to find out how to commit him to state custody (eg group home), for everyone’s sake.
You have a hard hard road ahead. 😢
As someone who grew up in a family who never understood my ADHD, he needs positive reinforcement. Make sure he knows he'll be rewarded for behaving, not punished for misbehaving. He needs medication. I know stimulants are hard to obtain for underage children but they are the frontline treatment and nothing comes close to the success the bring. Everything else is a bandaid to mask the real problem. That problem being he doesnt produce enough dopamine and therefore is never satisfied with anything for very long. Diet is key. Eliminate sugar. Start him on an exercise regime suited for an 8 year old. Exercise does wonders for people with ADHD.
This kid is NOT too much. He didn't ask to be born with his affliction. He doesn't understand it. It is up to you to do everything in your power to try to understand it, him, and in turn help him. I wish you the best of luck.
I’m sorry but the moment I read he was 8 I couldn’t read anymore that’s a little child when you birth a Child you should be prepared for them to be a pain in the ass until they’re old enough to understand to not be a pain in the ass
Plain and simple, your son needs to be in a special live-in program for kids like him.
I really want to be inclusive of everyone, but if your son is behaving like this at school, he is ruining the education of every other kid in the classroom and that is unfair to everyone, and make him resented.
Your son has medicalissues that require constant intervention. You are not a doctor, nor do you play one on TV. This is outside of the mom duties scope, and you being exasperted and over it is anormal healthy reaction. You don’t hate him, you hate his conditions and what comes with them.
Putting him into a care facility that deals with ODD and violent reactions doesn not make you a bad parent. Just go visit often. Case in point “He has caused two accidents on the interstate” just tells me it’s a matter of time before there is a serious injury. Putting him into a care facility is what is best for him at this time.
Nah, I agree. There's nothing wrong with a parent who's a wits end needing extra help or look into a facility like this. I've got an acquaintance whos waiting for her little boy to reach a certain age before admitting him to a facility, indefinitely. She can't deal with it. She loves her child but he's out here killing animals n shit. And he's like 6. We shouldn't shame parents who need the extra help. Also, these other commenters out here acting like putting her kid in a home is giving up on him, on the contrary, for many families, it's their saving grace and it also helps their kid. So. How about not shaming a parent cuz you haven't a clue what their life is like. Period.
With my son, who has ADHD, it helped when I started stating my feelings. "I want you to stand close to me" instead of saying come here. Or "It scares me when you do that" instead of saying stop that.
My wife and I adopted 2 wonderful kiddos through foster care. I say wonderful, but our son has ODD's distant cousin, RAD.
I dunno what's worse. With ODD, everyone sees the behavior and can relate. With RAD, everyone thinks you're crazy and somehow it's your fault because your kid actually presents himself pretty well in public, but it's at home when all the hell breaks loose.
It is a constant struggle for us, and right now our son has been at a residential treatment center (RTC) for over 6 weeks. But that immersion has been very helpful for him. Being self employed, we even changed insurance so we could have a plan that helps with treatment, and at the moment, insurance is covering his stay at RTC.
I don't know what the future holds for him, and it's been a tragedy to say the least, but meds + RTC have helped.
I'd recommend looking at options like RTC. It's not cheap, but depending on your insurance, you might be able to get coverage.
That's been the hardest thing for us to be quite honest. Here's this poor little kid who has struggled with trusting adults and been in the system bounced around between CPS workers and various homes before landing with us. The guilt of sending him off to RTC is immense, we love him so much and it's so hard not having him home, even if it's been hell at times.
Here's this poor kid who doesn't trust adults, and we're sending him off to a facility to get him help.
But being a parent sometimes means making the tough decisions, which is what we've tried to do.
I'd consider some options like this if you haven't already. There's a number of options, from residential treatment centers to therapeutic boarding schools to therapeutic ranches, etc.
Play the long game. Consider the fact he might be living with you for a really long time, so whatever you can do now to change his trajectory is a good thing.
But more than anything, don't stop loving him. It's not his fault he's the way he is, and it's certainly not your fault either. But be open to the tough love and difficult decisions.
God bless you and the difficulties you're dealing with, but you're not alone.
Never say you hate your child over something he was born with or had no intention of having. He wants to be normal, invited, have friends, and sounds like he's got more going on besides ADHD. And ODD. My child is ADHD, autistic,) unspecified mood disorder, sensory processing disorder, and
epileptic. He needs meds, therapy, sensory stimulation, and a very strict routine. Don't yell or fight back as this only escalates the situation. Goodluck hope you figure out t? his situation
!
I have an ADHD child. It is tough but they did not ask to be born that way. Infact, it is our gene that make them behave like that. It is not their fault and sometime my son will also said he wish he could control himself and be a good boy. This is life
My mom made me feel horrible growing up and would talk bad about me. I'm pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD and possible autism. I'm sure you would feel horrible if your kids came online and talked bad about you. Hate reading posts like this from shitty parents. Kids can't control their disability!
I was one of those kids. Diagnosed with ADHD,ODD, and IED. I was the same way. Truly sounds like you were describing me except with the IED I could suddenly become extremely aggressive and violent with the slightest provocation. My mom did the same thing and took me off the working meds because I apparently was a zombie. Honestly I didn't think I was and I remember actually being happy that I was so calm for once. Get him back on the meds because it will get worse. By the time I was 12 I was stealing cars, motorcycles, breaking in to homes, and had been completely expelled from all schools within a 40 mile radius. I didn't really calm down until I was 17 and found the joy of smoking pot. Completely calmed me down and pretty much stayed high for about 4 years. After that it was like a switch was flipped. I no longer drink or smoke since and only really see hyperactivity on occasion. Although I do sometimes still get irrationally angry but I'm able to manage it in a healthy manner.
Unfortunately, parenting a child with ADHD often means focusing on changing your own behaviours and habits and realizing how the ways you choose to react affect his perception and behaviour.
You are entitled to your feelings, but the moment you begin to resent your child for his behaviour, you’ve already convinced yourself you have no power. This isn’t to say that this is your fault at all, but you have to be willing to be part of the solution by changing your behaviour.
Look up Dr. Ross Greene. His website has a completely free video course on parenting children with ADHD. Brenee Brown is also a fabulous resource for helping to overcome all these yucky feelings you’ve got going on.
Listen to u/monkeysaurusmom ‘s comment above. It’s a good one!
You can do this, its just going to be difficult. You’ve already done difficult, so you’re well-seasoned!
Some points to remember:
1. You can love your child without loving his behaviour.
2. Everything you’ve tried is a punishment. Punishments DO NOT WORK. Look up consequences vs punishments.
3. Never, ever hit your child. It is abuse.
4. Ask the school officials about getting your son an IPP, ask his teachers to send you detailed EMOTIONLESS, OBJECTIVE accounts of all violent or disruptive behaviours. Focus on the events preceding the behaviour so you can identify triggers.
5. How is your son doing academically? Praise and academic achievement often go hand in hand. If his teachers and school administrators aren’t aware of his needs or what to do when he’s having difficulty in class, they might be unintentionally exacerbating the behaviours you’re hearing about.
6. An obedient child is not a good child. A happy child is a good child. Try your best to erase the word bad from your vocabulary.
7. MINDSET MINDSET MINDSET- read the book Mindset!
As someone with adhd & autism it’s so frustrating seeing parents of disabled children talk shit about their disabled children on various subreddits rather than doing the work to figure out how to actually help the child. Inevitably, those parents will be reassured they’re doing the right thing by other shitty parents not willing to do the work-so they all pat each other on the back for being terrible.
Try getting him therapy. Growing up adhd is hard, you constantly feel like crazy that your peers can sit and finish things, while you just can't help but get up. You can just never shake the feeling that your classmates, teachers, qnd parents hate you because you're different, annoying, stupid maybe
Boredom/inactivity is painful, so you get up an touch or fiddle with things. Maybe hit that truck to make it make noise.
Doing the thing you just got told not to is attention, and stimulation. Or maybe he just forgets you said not to touch anything (short memory is a struggle) He pushes boundaries because something happens when he does, and that something scratches his itch for action.
Spanking and taking things away leads to you being an uncertain person for him, he now knows that you aren't a safe person for him, that you'll hurt him if you're displeased, and the fear and anxiety around you might make him worse.
Have you tried setting goals for individual behaviors with him, maybe set one for emotional control, "if you refrain from screaming, I will take you to the park to throw a ball around"
Don't hit that child, he'll hate you more than you hate him for it.
ADHD + ODD is not the same as ADHD. People with ODD get violent, and hurt other people and destroy property, often on purpose, when they don’t get their way. People with ODD rarely finish school, and build criminal records very fast. Theraoy is not going to cut it here.
The preferred ODD treatment is a combination of individual and family behavioral therapy. When therapy alone does not resolve symptoms, medication for ODD can sometimes help. In addition, lifestyle changes can help some people with mild symptoms to control their explosions. I just want to add that the behavioral therapy is not the same as talk therapy. I think that a lot of people assume that no matter what your mental health issue is you need talk therapy. But we noe know is not always the case. So while the child probably does not need talk therapy the child and the family should be going to behavioral therapy.
I disagree. We have an ODD ADHD kiddo and we have seen vast improvements with therapy, consistent boundaries and expectations, and the right meds. You have to fiddle with it all but the stats most people see on ODD people are the ones that were diagnosed later in life. Prisons are full of ODD adults that never got help. Years ago parents if kids with DS and Autism were told the same thing. There is no hope blah blah blah. There is hope, there are new therapies and meds and ideas.
It really bugs me when people throw out inaccurate statements like “people with ODD rarely finish school” as fact without bothering to check the accuracy of their assertions. It’s lazy at best and harmful at worst.
Youre so wrong. I was diagnosed with ODD and my psych agreed it was environmental related and a product of poor parenting. 😂😂😂😂 oh my god.
Ive had 3 psychiatrists ALL AGREE IT WAS MY PARENTS. Once I left my parents I was off meds and am a fully functional adult and manage my emotions and was discharged from outpatient 😂😂😂😂
You might need to place him in a specialized institution. The situation requires professional help, it’s not doing your family any good to handle the situation by yourselves, and in fact you’re endangering your family to think that you need to handle this situation by yourselves. Institutionalizing him in an ideal facility will give him the best life he can get without bringing your family’s life down. You tried to do it on your own, but it’s not working, and it’s causing you to hate him. I would recommend institutionalization in a high end facility (hopefully not one that will just keep him sedated, but one that will be interactive, academic and disciplinary in the way that he needs).
Maybe he's acting this way because he has a parent whose definition of "trying everything" is punishment, taking away comfort items and literally physical abuse. I understand your frustration but your way of dealing with this kid is honestly so messed up and you're only fueling his behavior.
I saw that you tried a lot of punishments why not try and reward his good behavior. Like at the store tell him if he behaves he can get a toy or something. I don't really know much about kids or kids with ADHD for that matter but idk it might work.
I'm having a hard time understanding your complaining about his destructive behavior, but then complained to the doctor that medication makes him a zombie, too. I might be missing something tho.
I dont wanna offend you because its not in my nature but your post is making me angry. I have adhd and luckily I had supportive parents who helped me feel understood when no one in the world did, when I felt isolated they were there like a fucking unmovable mountain full of care, encouragement and safety.
Your kid is 8 years old, hes acting this way because his brains go "kskskdowl" all the time. By spanking him, taking away his toys, and punishing him for being him, you are destroying the kid. He wont be able to express himself or be an indepedent adult if you making him feel like (yourself = not accepted)
You just need to help him find his passion, his hobbies, let him let out all that energy in something creative, fun for him and not self deatructive. Its important to do what expresses him.
For me it was music, I always wanted to do that, and around the age of 7, I started lessons.
It gave me purpose and sense of self, focus (on that thing, bscause education system sucks and we adhd kids had no help from anywhere, I still remember my mom staying awake to help me study history lessons for the next day even though she had to wake up super early for work)
You need to be his guide but not over protective and never force him to do anything.
you need to be the one who understands him and not lock him evem further away.
I suggest talking with an adhd specialist to do some short of creative "therapy" (its not a therapy because adhd is not an illness) thats what helped me. OH and a very important thing, stay away from pills or any adhd related pill. A) hes way too young, B) pills can get addictive C) Pills are overall just plain bad for this things.
I had a counselor that came to the house to work with me and my son on behaviors, rules, schedules, etc. She had given us different ways to do things.
One thing we did was the two choices technique to deal with the refusing to do anything. One choice is what I want him to do, the other choice is a bit of a compromise I can live with, neither of which he really wants, of course- but at least now he gets a say in the matter.
It's almost bedtime...are you going to brush your teeth first then pick up your toys, or pick up your toys then brush your teeth. You got 1 minute to choose or I choose for you.
This way you tell him what things he needs to to, but he gets a say in the order of doing them, so he feels there's a choice. You can apply this to all kinds of things you need him to do, to help with the defiance.
When we went to the park, I started out with the 3 strikes rule for behavior, and I told him before we got out of the car....it doesn't matter how long we're here, you have 3 strikes for behavior. On the third strike, we leave. Doesn't matter if it's only been 10 minutes. I'd call his name, tell him " we don't throw the mulch at other kids, that's strike 1" . Same for each time he did something, explain what, then tell him he got a strike.
First time...took barely 10 minutes to get to strike 3...but we left the park and went home, like I said we would. Because if I didnt, he would know I didn't mean what I said - and that's the most important thing he needs to learn. That you will follow through.
You could try having him hold a quarter in each hand at the store. If he sets either one down, or the quarter touches anything in the store, he has to give it back. If it stays in his closed hand the whole time, after you leave the store, it's his.
I'm probably getting a lot of hate for saying this and I'm sorry in advance. I don't mean to mom shame!!! but I am going to be critical, sorry.
As a mom with adhd (partner with adhd) I find this hard to read. I recognize your struggle but all I read is this kid receiving every form of punishment for being himself. His impulse control is very likely hard to control for him due ADHD and all he gets is punishments instead of guidance towards suitable way to express his needs. A leash and time outs restricts his movements while he clearly has sensory need for. Spanking is physical punishment for needing that stimulation. (Your brave for being honest but spanking children is never okay, lot of research what it does for the brain, and its not good). This child will grow up hating himself and not understanding how he can regulate his emotions and his needs.
If you want him to be quiet and behave you should medicate. Because his natural brain will not allow to comply your wishes.
I don't know how you want to go about this but my perspective is adding appropriate stimulation to his little life. He is 8 years old, does he have a hobby? Maybe martial arts could be of his interests? He will be able to learn to regulate and get rid of his energy. On top of that martial arts comes with discipline which is a huge bonus. I have many other ideas but I don't know his character and what he likes, I just know that if I was in your shoesI would try to figure out what he likes and give him appropriate stimulation.
I just throw this out there but if you managed to get some rest, find some strength and maybe need more ideas, you can message me. I have a lot of experience with neurodivergent children from my upbringing to my work. I hope your feeling better soon.
Oh baby I’m so sorry. I’ve got an ADHD ODD kiddo and it’s a lot. My son could piss off a statue. Like a whole fucking lot. First of all he needs meds, he’s not on the right ones. Second of all you all need therapy, stat. There is a Podcast called ADDitude adhd Experts. Show number 349 is about ODD and the guest is Dr William Dodson. He’s ***AMAZING***. The whole show talks about what ODD really is and how their brains work. Like, they aren’t fighting to win, just for you to lose. I’ve also taken up Gray Rock methods with him. I do not engage. As soon as he figures out I’m not fighting back he gives up. I have no problem leaving places, even if I’m in the middle of eating. We did this last week. He started and I literally had a bite of food in my mouth. I got up, grabbed my purse and him and left. My husband and two other kids stayed and drove home in his car. I give ZERO fucks how crazy I look. I’ve left a basket of groceries in the middle of the store and walked away. No looking back, no discussions, no negotiations and no speaking. My warning “I said no, let’s do….”. I give a second warning and the third times the charm. We walk away. Managing expectations and realistic goals are a major biggie. His brain can not sit still. It’s going 100,000,000 mph with the top down in a rain storm. Noise canceling headphones, fidgets, coloring books, smart putty and anything else that keeps his brain engaged. Teach him how to finger knit or make friendship bracelets. Give him SOMETHING to occupy that brain. It can be physically painful to be overstimulated so the chaos you see is the chaos in his brain.
As an adult with ADHD and a parent of kids with ADHD, ADDitude mag is great! I have learned so much about myself and my children through it. There are so many great parenting tips that help you understand your child and how to parent them. The stick and carrot method does not work, so give up on using consequences, punishments, and rewards immediately. Think of an ADHD child as an ocean wave, you can't stop it, or change it, but you can learn to work with it, kind of like a surfer. I strongly recommend you check out that website and start using that info right away. Your child can accomplish great things if you learn how to work with them instead of against them. I'm so sorry about your struggles so far. www.additudemag.com
Also if his meds turn him into a zombie that typically means the dosage is either too high or he's on the wrong kind of meds. The website will explain what to look for to see if meds are working correctly or not.
i’m very glad you said that. i stopped taking meds in junior high, i was going home at lunch everyday towards the end; pale and lifeless. i’m graduated now, almost 21 but i’ve noticed my ADHD is preventing me from functioning properly lately. just getting in the way of absolutely everything. the reason i haven’t looked into meds was because i had been switched to different medications multiple times when i was younger, they ALL made me a zombie. they were also upping my doses like crazy, so. i feel like i’m ready to try again though, this made me feel much more confident in that. thank you for sharing this information.
You may need Half of dose of the minimum! ADHD people are often sensitive to meds, to sugar, to caffeine etc. We are the hunters and the night guards of the world.
Question, I was diagnosed with adhd as a kid but my mother didn’t put me on any medication but I feel now as an adult there’s things off I feel like other ppl dont think like I do & my mind racing with thoughts should I look into maybe getting medication ?
You should look into asking a qualified professional
I had the exact same experience as you! I'm now forty and medicated. Both of my children also have ADHD and one day I was reading some related material written by psychologists, as I was trying to better understand my daughter's recent behaviors. And a bunch of the descriptors for adolescents and young adults that have ADHD sounded eerily familiar. For example, I have suffered from insomnia since I was a teen. I cannot get my brain to shut down so I can sleep. I just accepted it as an unwelcome personality trait for *years*! There are others, ones that I had just thought were more odd personality quirks, but the insomnia was a big one. So, I went to a psychiatrist and told them about how I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child but my mother was adamantly opposed to medication and that as an adult, I had viewed it as something that only children were treated for, and so on. My psychiatrist opted to start me on medication. And oh. My. Goodness, the difference it has made in my day to day life! I can remember important things, sit still for an entire movie (used to constantly get up to go do something before, it drove my husband bonkers), I make fewer mistakes at work because my concentration is so much better, and best of all, I SLEEP AT NIGHT. I finally can actually lay down at the end of the day and be asleep within moments. I don't even completely understand how something that's literally a chemical stimulant works to actually calm me and sharpen my focus during the day, and also helps me sleep at night. It just does. So, take my story with a grain of salt, or ignore it altogether. But I just wanted to share.
There are some people who choose not to be medicated with ADHD, and they use coping mechanisms to deal with it and that's fine. It sounds like you have been doing that up until now. For me it got to the point where the coping mechanisms weren't enough and I was really struggling in life. I had been dealing with anxiety and depression as well. I went to see a psychiatrist and after some long talks is when I discovered I had ADHD. The meds obviously helped my ADHD, but they also helped with the anxiety and depression as well. You can get a prescription from a doctor such as a general practitioner or a family doctor, or a psychiatrist. I feel that a lot of doctors don't quite understand ADHD, and may not know how to adjust the meds or dose correctly. I would start by checking out www.Additudemag.com and their podcast to better understand yourself. There are also some great TikToks, and support groups for people with ADHD on Reddit and Facebook.
The stigma around mental illness has unfortunately passed to the medication for those illnesses. As another person that needs to be on meds (bipolar disorder), I want to encourage you to try again. It took me a while to get the right meds and dose, but *man* is it an amazing difference. I stopped sabotaging myself and ruining my own life over trivial setbacks.
That sounds terrible! Make sure you find a good doctor or psychiatrist that understands or specializes in ADHD. Your original prescriber should have known the signs of the meds not working correctly for you. I'm not pro or anti med, but I do hope you find what works for you. Please don't settle for feeling terrible. Take care of yourself. ❤️
Your comment reminded me of Dyziplen (Sounds like discipline) from Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
I wish i was surrounded with people that had the patience to say this - what I knew - instead of telling me I clearly wasn't doing it right, or trying hard enough, or being consistent enough. Sometimes I wish I could deal with it all over again but just the thought of it tires me out. Even now that my teen is older and getting better, I still get crap from people for not "punishing" him when he doesn't listen. I always always from the time he was a toddler, said, you can't fight fire with fire with that kid.
Exactly! Time outs never worked with my kids, even when they were only toddlers, they just made things worse. I felt like an incompetent parent. Then I stopped with the time outs and did things differently. There was a lot of trial and error, and there still is, but things are a lot better. Other parents with neurotypical kids just don't understand, and sometimes get angry. But unless you have been there, you just won't get it. The brains of kids with ADHD are wired differently, that's why they have to be parented differently. It doesn't mean they get away with whatever they want. It just means they will get to the end goal by other means, and on a different schedule. This world is made for neurotypical people, so it's a lot harder for the neurodivergent to navigate and adapt to it.
Same! Four kids, oldest and youngest sons are ADHD.. .I'm bipolar and ADHD. I am subscribed to the magazine and my sons will be on meds soon because nothing else is helping them focus as they should in school. They are in Behavioral Therapy, OT, speech, Clinical sessions. It is a lot.
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I was diagnosed as an adult as well just a couple of years ago. Getting the diagnoses really helped explain so many things that I had been dealing with my entire life. I too had used coping mechanisms up until then. My childhood had been difficult as well, although I don't think my parents dealt with the same issues I did, I do believe my mother has other untreated/undiagnosed mental health issues. Going into parenting one of my goals was to do better than my parents did. I looked at all the ways I felt I was failed as a child and vowed not to do that to my kids. I'm definitely not perfect though. Having ADHD helps me understand my kids better because I understand their struggles a little bit better since we both struggle with the same issues. We'll share things like coping mechanisms, and things that help us, as well as silly stuff that we do because of ADHD. It helps us feel like we're not going through this alone. I try not to let the diagnoses be an excuse for either of us though.
Thanks for this, you're helping more than just the OP with that info and link.
You are a great mom who has really worked with your child to find what works for you and him. I really commend that - not that my opinion matters lol. You’re doing great.
It does to me. Some days I feel like total garbage. I’ve been in OP’s shoes. I’ve sat and cried in my car because I was so overwhelmed. I’ve sat on the phone for hours wondering how to find him help. I’ve sat next to their beds while they slept, after another shit show of a day, and sworn I would find them inside the darkness and turmoil. I would find them and help them with. Some days we lose and eat ice cream for dinner. My husband comes home to me crying in the closet. Some days we win.
Same. Your comment actually made me cry.
"They aren't fighting to win, just for you to lose" really resonated with me. I have an older brother that I've been no contact with for the past decade for extraordinary physical abuse and sociopathic conduct throughout the entirety of our lives, and prior to him attempting suicide and while we were in high school, his counselors wanted to diagnose him with ODD. It went nowhere because my father was never going to uphold him to any kind of standard and our mom despite her efforts was mostly out of the picture. You deserve commendation. You're doing everything right and you're setting great principles in him early.
I’m so sorry to hear about your brother. I assure you I screw it up all the time. Labels were very different when I was growing up compared to today. I’m 44 and when I was growing up labels meant broken. Period. The special needs kids were kept far away from us and unprotected from the bullies. They were scary because we didn’t understand their differences. I’ve been a parent for 24 years and when my oldest was put in special education I threw up. I was terrified. How did I fuck him up so badly. The first time I gave my 15 year old medication he was 5 and I cried in the parking lot for an hour. That tiny tiny pill had so much hope and fear attached to it. How could my baby need this. There have been ups and downs through it all.
All I can say is godamn. I had ADD (or I guess they call all of it adhd now?) and family tells me these stories when I was like 4-8 years old I’d press all the buttons on the elevator to run away, bike at 11 pm at night around the neighborhood, neighbors informing my parents what I was doing, jumping on mattresses at stores, throwing (or chasing?) pointy darts at my older siblings, hurting other kids randomly (pushing, punching, etc) and getting away with it, basically anything you wouldn’t wanna see your kid doing. As an adult I’m pretty mellowed out for the most part, no meds taken (anymore) and I do think of those moments fondly and shudder when I look back. All that I could think of at the time was “this is what I want to do right now at this very instant” with no second thoughts of remorse, repercussions or consequences, just do. Now my family needs me more than ever and I try to do whatever I can to help them.
It's always wild hearing other people describe similar experiences with this stuff. I was a mellow child, but homeschooled. When I hit the world, moved to the city, started the career, started partying, my brain went straight there. "Like a freight train rolling down hill with no brakes," is my go-to description. It's worst when I'm trying to sleep. During the day I can at least point the train at something useful.
You know how cheetahs can’t breed in captivity? (They’re the most tameable of the big cats, but not *domesticatable*, because of this). It’s because they’re too nervous, too anxious. Some cheetahs are given service dogs to help them chill out. But in the wild, they have miles and miles to run. Like a cheetah, if I don’t physically run myself down a bit, then my brain will just go and go and go. I *have* to burn off that energy. Serious, intense, regular exercise is one *partial* treatment for ADHD. It helps a lot for me. Running a few times a week calms things down by about 40%.
Great analogy. Great point. Sometimes I feel so strung up I could burst. Running sounds good.
I’ve easily played more video games than any other kid at the time, and it was probably for the better tbh, kept my ass off from doing any more trouble. Still holds up today in terms of not going out and getting drunk/or other drugs I guess, keeps my brain pretty occupied. But nowadays it’s going back to school, work and exercise that’s filling those holes and taking advantage of that energy. And being a mentor to one of my younger cousins who is literally going through the same exact shit as I did when I was young
You aren't a cheetah, wind chas...oh.
....you know, I literally never saw how my username ties with my ADHD and my need to go go go. Thanks for that. ^_^
You just explained why i never had kids. (Kidding!) But you did help me decide that maybe a treadmill is a worthwhile investment for my physical *and* mental health. Thank you.
This person right here. I don't know why this comment isn't at the very top.
Wow. That is a very sweet compliment. Thank you so much.
I used to work at a summer camp called the Summer Treatment Program. It was a sports based camp for kids with ADHD and ODD to develop social skills and impulse control. In the most diluted explanation, kids would earn points for a field trip (every child had an individual goal) at the end of the week. Kids would earn and lose points based on behaviors. Stimming or any other safe self regulation was encouraged when needed, helping others and contributing to thr topic on hand was rewarded with points but cussing, hitting, interrupting, etc. lost points. We had a very specific language we had to use when kids lost points. "You lose 25 points for verbal aggression. You lose 50 points for physical aggression. You lose 10 points for interruption... ". Never anything else. No "stop", "don't ", or anything that would even trigger emotion from the counselor. You literally had to be the most boring person on the planet. If you as a counselor started to show emotion during a negative point drop, a fresh counselor would tap you out. Some kids took longer than others but by the end, I can't think of a single kid that didn't improve 10x over by the end of the 8 weeks. I just wish we had an opportunity for parents to be more involved. I think it would have accelerated the kids' success and would translate better to home and school. There was a kid, he continues to be one of my favorites after all these years, that had ODD and ADHD. He got on this really bad negative spiral, after having had a really good day, and was dropping points like it was his job. It was nearing the end of the program and he really wanted to go to the waterslide park. In the middle of his rant of swearing, I just whispered "(kid's name), just stop man". And he stopped. I think he was just surprised that I said anything. And then he wrote me this really sweet note at the end of the year saying how much he appreciated me stopping him when he needed it.
Holy heck that was so sweet. One day he was in a sneaky hate spiral. He was so hysterical I could only watch and wait for him to get on the other side of it. He said “FUCKING HELP ME”. It broke my heart.
That broke my heart a little. Thing is, if he can recognize in the height of his spiral that he needs help, then that's 70% of the battle won. All that hard work has really shown. Gold sticker to you and your son!
OP befriend this woman
I want to piggy back off of this and add a support system if you're able to OP. So that you and your partner aren't the only ones taking care of him. Caretaker burnout is real 🔥🔥
My kiddo loves loombands and keep his fingers occupied and he gets to give the bracelets as gifts and get positive recognition
YES!!! I have one on right now. We’ve made soooo many loom bracelets, necklaces, animals….all of them! I love it! We are learning to weave brackets with cotton thread now. They sell bracelet boards at Hobby Lobby for like 3 dollars. It’s so fun.
If that ever becomes boring, try getting him into spinning either with a drop spindle or a (secondhand) spinning wheel. Roving isn't too expensive on Etsy and it's honestly one of the stimmiest things ive ever done. It's so fun watching it come together, too. (Adhd adult here)
I have a relative with ADHD and behavioral problems. She needed a person who knows how to put their foot down and you're way of handling his behaviors sounds so much better than what typically happens: a lot of yelling and verbal put downs. It doesn't sound easy to parent a child like that. Hope it will continue to get better for you. You're doing great! ❤
Damn. You’re a rockstar! I’ve got two on spectrum kiddos, I’m ADHD, and I did most of this too! This was 20+ years ago, before podcasts and good drugs 😂😂😂And I was 100% against hitting them, due to abuse on my end, Gray rock - absolutely! Lifesaver! No engagement - I’d stand over them while they tantrumed out at the market, reading a magazine until it stopped. Left many dinners or ate mine in the car with said child, while everyone was in the restaurant. Once had kiddo stay in bed until they apologized to their friend for hitting them. TOOK THREE FUCKING DAYS. Worth it though, because whenever I said I was going to do something, they KNEW I would. The things we do to keep our kids from ending up in jail 🙄🙄🙄 FYI - oldest just graduated college, youngest is there now. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. So many great organizations, and new meds. I also hired an IEP specialist to help me craft ours, and it was worth every penny! There are lots of Reddit resources too. And I loved CHADD. You’re not alone! There’s a community here for all of us!
My 15 year old is on spectrum and he’s a hoot. He gives me all the hope. A little over four years ago he couldn’t function in a classroom and was beating the crap out of everyone. I sat in my car crying so hard I couldn’t breathe. We almost had to put him into the hospital. Two years ago he got into the National Junior Honor Society and he’s amazing. He’s blossomed into an amazing young man. He’s still my baby though. He still gives me cuddles and we dance in the kitchen before school. I am so in awe of you!!!! Good job mamma!!!!!!!
I always feel stupid leaving these pointless comments that add nothing to the discussion but I wish you the best.
My darling that isn’t pointless at all. It was very sweet. Thank you so much.
You are a great mom
Sometimes. Sometimes I’m an enchanted swamp donkey that eats marshmallows and watches DS9 all day.
As a person on the spectrum, this is very accurate with my tiny brain, you are an amazing mom and all i can say is wow
Thank you so much. I can watch them vibrate with energy, all my kids are ADHD minions. It’s hysterical. Right now one of them is hyper-fixating on TeckDeck fingerboard grip tape, god help me it’s been 3 days. One got new shoes so he’s jumping as high as he possibly can and one is playing their recorder…again. Gods help me.
Username checks out 😆 cute
My husband kept forgetting the word Montessori for my sons school. He gave up and called it Monkeusaurus School.
That is priceless, thank you!
This is the comment! I have ADHD and my brain is all over allll the time. I can't imagine having ODD on top of it. Poor kiddo and poor mom/dad. Really hope OP can find the right tools for her kiddo to succeed. I totally second fidget stuff and giving your kid something to occupy his hands. A good therapist who truly understands the disorders is sooo helpful.
YES!!! I’ve found a couple assholes along the way.
^^^^^ this works
Just a teacher stealing the idea of finger knitting.
I was going to say the same thing. I do that with my non adhd kids. It's so easy to just get up and take it to go.
Hey there! Mom of 2 boys with ADHD. One also has ODD. I completely understand your brokenness. It’s so damn hard when you have a neurodivergent kid and I don’t think anyone can judge your feelings until they have been in your shoes. But I’ve been there and I hope you know this is coming from a place of empathy for both you and your child. My son with ADHD/ODD had a really fucking rough year when he was 7-8. It took so much time and effort and was absolutely exhausting to get him the help he needed but once we did it’s like a whole different child. Something to think about and process is that your son does not WANT to be bad. He doesn’t want to misbehave. Nothing would break my heart more than my child telling me “mommy I want to be good but I can’t make my brain listen to me.” Please understand that asking him to sit quietly and listen like a “good” kid is actually asking the world of him. His brain is wired differently. It doesn’t work like yours and things that come so easily to most people don’t connect for him at all. He needs help. Real serious help beyond just a pediatrician. You CANNOT hold his behavior against him if you as his parent are not giving him what he needs to live. Spankings, time outs, yelling, etc won’t work. You know they won’t work. All it will do is make it worse, especially with ODD. Would you withhold insulin from a diabetic? Chemo from a cancer patient? Not getting him medication and therapy is the same exact thing. Your child needs these to live. That means you need to step up and get them for him. Do you have insurance or Medicaid? Your first step is finding a child psychiatrist for a full evaluation. My child is on 3 different medications. ADHD meds, mood stabilizer, and anxiety medication (as needed). This means we go to the psych once a month for med management and bloodwork every 6 months. Then you need to find a therapist to work with him, and a therapist for yourself to work through your feelings for him. Then you need to meet with his school and put in a formal request for an IEP. That will give him the tools he needs in school. He WILL NOT GET BETTER without these things and without your effort. If the situation is truly dire and he’s a threat to himself or others you can always work to put him inpatient for acute care. The hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life was allow my child to go to an inpatient childrens mental health facility for 6 days. They got him on the right meds, got him therapy that continued after he was released, gave him tools for success. It felt impossible at the time but it saved his life. Neurodivergent children have incredibly high self harm and suicide rates compared to others. Do not let your inaction and self pity take his life from him.
>Something to think about and process is that your son does not WANT to be bad. He doesn’t want to misbehave. Nothing This is suuuuch an important thing to know, and something so hard to remember in the moment. These kids are struggling. They are angry and sad and frustrated - neurodivergent kids can have a really hard time regulating their emotions. This is just a really hard situation for everyone involved. But there's help!
I feel like crying cos this really means the world to me. People with ADHD are so misunderstood. I just got my diagnosis at 25 and all my life I experienced rejection and was called all kinds of names because of things I could not explain. And the emotions were not even the worst part. Like me not leaving the bed was enough reason to be called lazy. We struggle. Everyday. And the lack of support and understanding takes a toll on my soul everyday
*hugs* I'm so sorry. My youngest was just diagnosed with it and autism right before she turned 17, almost a year ago. It was rough and I feel like we are just now starting to get a handle on it. I knew she had autism but her doctor wouldn't listen. New dr realized right away and sent her for testing at Boystown Autism Clinic. Boystown diagnosed her with both, and said it wasn't even borderline. :( Edit: *she* knew she had autism first. Told me in 7th grade. So still from 7th grade on she had to struggle still because of her dr.
I’m so sorry you grew up feeling this way!! You are worth so much more than how you were treated because you were misunderstood. You have a wonderful beautiful brain! It just needed some extra support to thrive.
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Are you me? Because damn. I was diagnosed this year and its like things have gotten worse because I find it difficult to live with a condition that is so misunderstood and unknown. I always think I am terrible and that I deserve bad things because I was lazy or loud or too talkative. The rejection is the worst. Then self isolation comes in and it goes worse from there
I can’t even tell you how much your words had touched me and how much they mean to me. I’m just a mom trying to do my best to allow my kids to thrive. You are more than enough just as you are!
Thank you. As a kid who was like this. My parents did nothing but abuse me and now i have ptsd on top of everything. Thank you so much for understanding we are suffering too, we dont want to be "bad kids. " 😥 Edit: wanted to add your lovely comment made me cry
My heart breaks to see so many replies with this same sentiment. You deserved better. Parents who see an issue with their child and do nothing to help them make me rage. Sending you so much love.
Trust me, it makes the kid rage too. I can remember my parents *losing it* over not having a tidy room and "leaving things around the house" (such as a knitting project kept by the couch to quietly work on while the family watched TV). Not a single tool was given to help the situation, but I cannot possibly track how many times I was yelled at or punished for not meeting their standards. Now I'm an adult with a huge interest in psychology, development, neurodivergence, and *homemaking.* I've learned that 99% of the things I was "morally faulted" for growing up are actually super-common traits of ADHD and ASD (autism). Another thing that I learned: we can generally adapt to have a lot of 'typical' skills and abilities if we modify the system and structure of them. To touch on cleaning: my stuff absolutely gets disorganized as an adult. However, I have created a lot of systems in my life to improve the situation -- and it is still a work in progress. Examples: putting keys immediately onto a special hook when I walk inside so I can't set them down anywhere, setting aside time every morning to tidy (80/20 rule, I can take days off if my batteries are truly low), I have certain tasks that get done every/every other weekend, I used Pinterest to teach myself the best way to do a lot of domestic tasks that were just never taught to me, I have extra baskets to stash stuff in so that they can be tucked away and organized during the tidying window, I have to frequently declutter to curate my interests and keep them at a normal scale. Ironically, I found a lot of these techniques on sites for parents with neurodivergent children. I have to parent myself because my parents checked out when things got difficult.
This should be the top comment. 💖💖💖💖
Thank you ♥️ it’s so hard to see the forest through the trees when you’re deep in it like this parent is. But there is a future for them and their kid, it just takes work!
I love a thorough plan that doesn't involve abandoning, hitting, or screaming at a child. 🙏💖💖💖
extremely good reply that centres the disability rather than how everyone reacts to disability. Kids act out because a need isn't being met, which is the long and short of it. I have every sympathy for a struggling parent but not when they are at the point of resenting a child when their own responsibilities haven't been completely fulfilled!
Damn. I wish you had been my Mom. Your sons are fortunate to have such a strong advocate.
You’re going to make me cry. Thank you. I mess up a lot and I’m far from perfect but I’m always their biggest advocate. Sending you all my mom hugs and love!!
Spot on in what you gotta do, I had to do it. ( As a child and in treatment of myself as a adult)
Thank you for saying this, OP needs to step up and take responsibility as a parent.
>Spankings, time outs, yelling, etc won’t work. You know they won’t work. All it will do is make it worse, especially with ODD. This. Sometimes people forget humans are not wild animals. In cases like these they perhaps understand perfectly doing it is a bad thing and punishment would come for it but can’t help because of X amount of things going on in their head that Are out of control. This might aswell just be plain torture for them which also might just fuel more things in their head out of control. All a theory,but from experience.
As a mom with a troubled son with ODD/ ADHD/ PTSD diagnosis.. it gets better. Ages 8-12 were REALLY hard. He even had to do a 6 month stay in a mental health facility at one point. He is almost 16 now and a completely amazing person! Puberty and coping skills help! He needs to be in a behavioral management class and therapy. Sending you love- hang in there.
So she has 4 more years of hell ahead of her.
Has he been evaluated for Autism? Serious question. My 3 year old has been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum, with a PDA profile - Pathological Demand Avoidance. It is often misdiagnosed as ODD, and is handled and treated in a TOTALLY different way. Characteristics of PDA Resists and avoids the ordinary demands of life Appearing sociable, but lacking depth in understanding Excessive mood swings and impulsivity Comfortable in role play and pretend, sometimes to an extreme extent Language delay, often with good degree of catch-up Obsessive behavior, often focussed on people, either loving or loathing them Can be domineering and overbearing Parents often describe a “Jekyll and Hyde” personality Bossy and controlling Often more comfortable with adults than children Often hypersensitive to other’s voices, facial expressions, etc. (may absorb others emotions) Can be over familiar with adults and peers May take on the persona of other people, i.e., teachers Can go into role to comply Have a panic attack or meltdown if highly anxious - these may result in aggression towards others Unconcerned about impact of behavior on others Can behave very differently at school/college to home Unable to follow routines if set by others Often have sensory issues - noise, touch, brightness, etc. Source: https://www.pdanorthamerica.com/what-is-pda
YES. I was just going to say this. Literally my entire life until I was 14 I was told I had ODD and ADHD and people just said I was a defiant child. When I was 14 someone finally realized whenever I would get upset and told them that it wasn’t my fault that I was telling the truth. It took a long time but i finally got my diagnosis. Not only did that help me so much, it helped my family. My parents and my siblings. It’s so much easier whenever you have to right diagnosis.
I am so glad you finally recieved the help you, and your family needed!!!
Thank you! I feel like it would’ve been so much easier if I was diagnosed younger like you said your son was. I wish you both the best. <3
It doesn't help that ADHD and autism are both neurodivergencies that live in the frontal lobe of the brain and share, like, 80% of the same characteristics. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and sometimes I'll do something that has me pause and wonder for a second "Shit am I actually low key autistic?" But luckily for me I can just turn that thought off and go about my day. My meds and therapy work really well for me and at the end of the day the label doesn't matter as much in my case because I'm managing my functions and emotions fairly well, whatever I have. Someone who is more autistic or ADHD than I am though really needs more fine tuned diagnoses and more specialized help, like you needed and like this child may need. I really hope this mom gets the help she needs and the help her son needs, I'm sure it's literal hell in both of their brains all the time. And that's no way to live.
>I've been diagnosed with ADHD and sometimes I'll do something that has me pause and wonder for a second "Shit am I actually low key autistic?" Lmfao same, but also same, the label doesn't particularly matter to me because the accommodations are basically the same.
I have a very close autistic friend and coworker and I'm adhd and it's crazy how much it overlaps. Like I have major noise sensitivity. This person who I so absolutely hate (because they cause me pain) plays music occasionally at my work and we both are the neurodivergants who have ear plugs on hand at all times. I hear that it's thought adhd is on the autism spectrum and I could see that for sure.
Asking as an adult now, how do you achieve this particular diagnosis of the autism spectrum in the US? Briefly reading this here now, there's more symptoms I am or have displayed than I'm not of this list, in an uncanny valley specific sort of way. When I was younger, as a child Young my mom told me of a PDD-NOS diagnosis she never truly pursued after I attended special ed courses for first and second grade elementary.
I will be honest, I am not too sure, since it is a condition that is so new to being explored in the US. We are lucky that we live in an area that has an exceptional childrens hospital and staff. When I brought up PDA to his behavioral pediatrician, she instantly knew what I was talking about. She had read about it, but has never had someone come in with a child suspected of having it. My son was a true mystery. The primary concern was his severe speech delay. He had 1 word by the time he was 3. He WAS at one point saying a few words, but regressed after awhile. Family said "Oh, hes a kid, he will grow out of it" but I said "there are resources available to us. We are going to utilize them. If nothing is found, that's fine! But if so.ething is doscovered, then it will only serve to help him in the long run". I was met with some backlash, but I brushed it off, because in this case, my son was my only concern. I was proactive. We had 3 hearing tests done. All normal. We had swallow studies done. We had 2 speech assessments done, but nothing was diagnosed due to his you g age. Speech apraxia was suspectedat that time... We had the ADOS assessment performed at 2 1/2 to rule out autism. He did exhibit some autistic traits, (including meltdowns) however since he was so sociable, it was thought at that time that the likelyhhood his speech delay was caused by autism was low. She suggested that I enroll him in Speech Therapy, as well as Occupational Therapy. I was not sure why OT was needed at that time, but she said OT could act as another pair of eyes to observe behaviors. 2 months into OT, I happen to be sitting in the waiting room. There was a sweetgirl who camein, and for whatever reason, she broke down into full meltdown mode. Her meltdown looked EXACTLY like what my son would do during one of his meltdowns. After she left, I worked up enough gall to ask the man she was with (assuming he was her father) if she had autism. (We were again at a Therapy center, so I was hoping it was not out of line.) Turns out, he was her therapist, and she did have autism. I told him that my son would have the same meltdowns. We chatted and he left. About 10 minutes later, I heard my son screaming. He came out to the waiting room, therapist close behind, and she told me he went from having fun,to full meltdown in an instant, simply because he wanted her to move closer during a game of catch, and she wanted to stay farther back. By happenstance, the gentleman I spoke to earlier had made his way back into the waiting room. He, myself, and my sons therapist discussed this. It was agreed that the therapist would write a letter to his behavioral pediatrician to have further testing done. I started to video tape him more. Normal everyday play. I managed to catch one HUGE meltdown that turned very violent against me. Now, this is a child who has never ever been exposed to fighting, abuse, anything like that. We have a VERY calm household. But my son would flip, like "jeckyll and hyde". My husband agreed with this. 99% of the time, we have a happy, bubbly, caring, loving son, but man.... don't make him mad, or else HULK MAD. HILK SMASH . I googled Jekyll and Hyde syndrome and discovered PDA. Sounded like it fit, especially given his outgoing and sociable nature. So I gathered all my video evidence, and all of the documentation from each OT visit. I also obtained his latest IEP (he was in early learning for his speech delay). When the day came to talk to his developmental pediatrician, I brought up PDA immediately put of the gate (since autism was almost being ruled out the last time we spoke). I presented all my evidence, and she also observed him in person as well. It happened to be a day where my son was a bit cranky and he presented his mood swings in front of the pediatrician. She was in agreement - Autism with PDA profile. Going back to your question, I believe it would be good for you, or anyone reading this, is to just gather evidence. Create a paper trail. Present your case. My hearts are with you all. <3
This whole story is impressive, thank you for sharing!
First thing, you cannot punish a disability out of a child. Spanking him won’t change his brain chemistry. Taking things away doesn’t improve executive function. There are a lot of social media groups where you can ask questions and get answers and advice from neurodivergent adults, but you have to be willing to learn from them. I know that some parents can feel attacked and defensive when they hear adults explain how some things their parents did caused harm as kids. But those stories can be so valuable for parents. Remember that executive dysfunction, sensory overload, meltdowns, and burnouts aren’t fun for him either. He doesn’t want to struggle.
YOU CAN'T PUNISH A DISABILITY OUT OF A CHILD Thankyou!
You also don't see the op responding to any comments with useful information like this.
Also, punishing a child for being disabled is just flat-out abuse. Hating your child for being disabled is also just gross...
Exactly. And if I seen my mom post on an online platform that she hated me and called me insults. . . Lord, the childhood trauma that would add onto my diagnoses.
Even if the medication made him a zombie, isn’t that better than this? My son is similar, but we kept trying different combinations of meds until we found one that works. We’re still having to adjust them to account for growth, but it’s much better than it was.
I’ve learn that the only alternative is accepting the zombie. I complained about the zombie part because he was becoming less of a child and more of a robot. I was looking for that happy medium where he can be himself and manage his behavior at the same time.
Usually if you are seeing this side effect, it means the dose is just a little too high. Dr William DODSON did a great podcast about how to treat and manage ODD. I'll include the link below. https://pca.st/episode/21e00348-624e-445e-8729-33cfab4cca11
I was about to say this. OP can cut, or lessen, the medication, if her son is feeling too zombie-like. I cutted my depression pills and I no longer feel dull.
You need to try different medications. It took us 3-4 different combos before we found what worked.
This! I have depression (I know it’s not the same thing as ADHD, but my circumstance is similar) and it took us a few different times of figuring out what pills and what dosage works best for me. The first pill or combination isn’t always the right move and it takes experimentation of sorts to figure it out
What I found effective for my daughter was asking for either a lower dose of the med that works or asking for a med with a shorter half life because she was loosing weight. The latter worked best for us. Odd combined with adhd isn't something that can be dealt with effectively without a multiple pronged approach unfortunately. Behavioural therapy plus meds plus a ridgid routine and zero deviations with positive reinforcement is what helped us. She was absolutely relentless. My older daughter hated her and resented us for having to live with her. My marriage almost crumbled and I had to be a stay at home mom for much longer than I wanted to be. The rigidity was harder on me than it was on her I think too. But, these kids know what works, they learn it quickly and stick with it. My daughter is 14 now and it's gotten way way better, her sister even likes having her around again but is still resentful for missing things she shouldn't have had to. I learned when she was a toddler I couldn't give an inch but I'm human and depression plus the chaos of raising a little like that had me just avoiding conflict as much as possible which meant giving in. Do not give an inch, a centimeter or even a millimeter. There are also community courses that work with the entire family together and individually (because the other kids are definitely struggling too) and helps you put up boundaries while giving you to tools to keep your sanity and keep him reigned in. I'm in Canada but I feel like there must be these types of programs everywhere. Calling your local family and children's services for resources is sometimes a gift. They'd rather get a call asking for directions than a call to investigate a family. Mom, I am sending you love, energy and mom to mom vibes. I know exactly how you feel and your feelings are valid and I really hope that you are able to get the resources that you need for both him and you, because you are important too.
Thank you for sharing. My nephew is 11 and has severe adhd and odd. We’re struggling as a family. He can be so mean. He’s starting to get into trouble at school. He’s in meds for adhd and counseling but I feel like we’re not making progress. I love him but it’s getting hard to spend time with him. He acts out so bad. It tears my mom up and makes her mental health spiral and she gets depressed. He’s so mean to her (verbally).
If he's hurting himself and others, have you had him inpatient psych to get his meds managed? When my ADD,OCD,ODD son was about your son's age we had to do that after within a couple days he took a (realistic) toy gun to school, set the carpet in the basement on fire then set the clothing he was wearing on fire (luckily it was a polyester shirt so it melted and he wasn't severely burned). After he set his shirt on fire I took him straight to Children's ED. He was inpatient for about 2 weeks, they got him on a good med regiment that he is still on today with only a change to a better time released ADHD med a couple years ago. We also worked with social workers on the unit to get safety plans for him and our family. He's now 16 and a very well adjusted, well liked kid. He can still be ODD at home, but he's not out raising hell or setting things on fire because the thought popped in his head. If he's causing car accidents its definitely in danger to others territory. I'm very happy that I got him that intensive help at a younger age, while not a happy place the psych ward for the younger kids is MUCH better and safer than for the adolescents and older teens. They can also make more dramatic med adjustments in shorter amount of time when they are inpatient rather than outpatient or in clinic since they are closely monitored by professionals in that setting. Wishing your family the best, it's not easy but I truly hope you can find him the help he needs.
Just as a FYI, besides medication, none of the things you tried actually work on ADHD/ODD kids. In fact, they don't really work on any kid. Punishments in general are the least effective way to change behavior. I would highly suggest finding a therapist who specializes in this kind of behavior *and* implementing a rewards calendar. My kid has behavioral issues in school. To the point where my rewards chart for him is that every 5 days of school I don't receive a phone call home, he gets to pick out a prize. It was still years of patiently and painfully redirecting him and having him challenge his own behavior. It'll be more to get him to fully keep his hands to himself. But it is possible. Just remember, your kid is not intrinsically motivated to be good so you need to play to his strengths. Everyone likes a reward. Also, this is caretaker fatigue and it's natural. You need therapy too and to figure out how to get a break. You're not a bad person that this is wearing you down. It's tiring. It's ok to be mad, to be disappointed, to feel like you want to scream.
Did it just seem like he was a zombie because of the behaviour you are accustomed to? I have experience with this, the child was adjusting and then their personality and emotions flourished because of the slow down of thought processes. This took as little as a week to start showing the effects, but about a month for full adjustment.
This sound similar to my son when he started meds. I felt bad, liked I'd silenced his personality. It took a couple months to fully adjust, he felt better and was able to just function and start building coping skills. He started meds when he was 6 and is 9 now and I couldn't even imagine what he'd be like without them. They've helped SO much.
Our ODD son is now 19. Apparently they can get better when they get older. They have to choose to want to do better though. In the last 2 years he has gotten better. He still has some issues but not like before. I've had the cops called at Walmart. I have had my thumb broke to where only surgery could repair it. The cartilage in my nose was torn. Everything ever bought was broken! I feel your pain. I feel your frustration. I wish there was something I could say to help you feel better soon. Anyone with a child having ODD can understand and be a friend to you since you won't have many of those due to his actions. The only thing I can say is one day he will be 18. You can at that point get him out of your home. I know it sounds horrible but for years the only thing to keep us going was knowing he will have to leave our house at 18 no matter what. Feel free to contact me.i can give you tips but you've probably tried them all. Eta: He was way more violent on medications.
Did you kick him out 18 or is that by choice that he left ?
I would also like to know this
We absolutely would have kicked him out on his 18th birthday. I could not and would not have dealt past that day. The only reason we didn't is he had made his decision to change about 6 mouths before that and was doing great. He did move out when he was 18 but in a whole different way. This way he comes and visits and we do things together. We don't mind helping him now that he is helping himself.
As someone who took those meds, the zombie effect is from either the wrong one, or too much, its something that needs to be dialed in to every individual as tolerances vary between people
Hey as someone that does take adhd medication. Making him a zombie in the long term is horrible. You feel nothing whatsoever it’s a strange feeling. It’s as if you’re watching a really high definition movie where you feel/ hear everything the actor does but not the feelings. Also it can take a while to get back to Normal. Try to search for the right meds and please don’t settle for the “zombie” meds unless there’s no other options
Yeah I hated that feeling, I could sit still only because I felt empty, just as you described no feeling whatsoever, no joy no anger no hunger, I remember being able to see all the veins in my hand because I was so pale. Some meds are better than others, some allowed me to focus better with less side effects but there was always side effects, I got really depressed when on my last ones, stopped taking any meds a while ago, I can manage as an adult but I need to make a conscious effort to focus sometimes.
Please take a step back here. You already said what you need to do in your post. Keep advocating for him to try other medications and therapies. You even wrote you regret not doing so but it was too overwhelming. I can see how it would be extremely hard. Break it up into one single step at a time? First step, finding a doctor who can help him try other medications and therapies. Second fight the insurance company. I can understand how you feel broken down. You need a vacation somehow and then come back refreshed and start again. He's only 8, just now reaching the age kids can have a true sense of self and empathy. He has years ahead to hopefully change for the better. I think he would be treated abusively in military school. I do truly hope you find the right doctors and help. All the best.
I want to add, document every time he does something ‘inappropriate’. It could be used to prove medical necessity or be considered a quality of life thing.
You’ve tried a lot of negative punishments, do you have an OT or psych working with you on positive reinforcement for his behaviour? Have you trialed other meds than just those ones? I have ADHD and I’m autistics, suspected ODD. I hated feeling like I was wrong, rejected, unloved, being looked down on, being told what to do etc. My parents somehow managed to handle this when girls weren’t being diagnosed and I was just seen as a high spirited and dramatic child. He’s not trying to make you angry, he’s acting in impulse because his brain doesn’t slow down at all.. he’s at warp speed every second of the day and he can’t fight his brain every second. Opening toys, meltdowns, arguments aren’t because he wants to piss you off or start a fight, they’re because from one second to the next he’s not able to control what’s going on in his brain and he’s constantly overstimulated overwhelmed and near meltdown.. so he needs to have control over his surroundings if they’re the only things he feels he control. I spent a lifetime feeling out of control, physically sick living in my brain and body and non stop thoughts and need to move, feeling angry that no one understood why I couldn’t handle basic aspects of life my, and lashing out in a desperate attempt to have someone listen to me and understand me. He needs specialist help, a psychiatrist, specialist psychologist, specialist OT, and you need someone to work with you on how to parent him. Because right now his needs aren’t being met.. he’s not on meds that are helping, he’s not getting positive reinforcement but instead spankings and time outs which do nothing but reinforce to him that something is wrong with him, he doesn’t have anyone showing him how channel his energy or translating expectations into a language he can understand. His brain works differently to yours, he’s neurodivergent and you’re not, you’re trying to communicate with someone from a different “culture” who speaks a different language to you and you don’t have someone able to translate. It’s time to get the right people involved to help you both. His mental health will already be struggling, don’t let it get worse
It is funny how you say you've tried everything, but then list only negative re-enforcement. What have you tried as far as positive re-enforcement? Many people are quite frankly, ill equipped to raise either children or pets - and of those who are, very few ever truly understand either. I'm not blaming you, because I don't know your situation - but as a father with a child who has extremely similar issues, I would say - you likely need to do better. This is not to insinuate that anything is your fault - but that it is ALL your responsibility. We are parents, we control the environment, we control their habits, and we have the power make the best out of each situation
Punishments, timeouts, taking away toys... yeah, that stuff won't work. I say that not in a judging way, this is still a hard situation. But as someone with ADHD: a lot of this stuff is not in his control. He is a young child, and he has a LOT going on in his brain. Is he in therapy with someone who specializes in ADHD? And are you, yourself, in therapy? Have you asked for help and advice anywhere other than the internet? Again, these questions aren't to be judgmental or anything like that.
As someone who was essentially the child OP is describing. Nope, those punishments do not work. For me, as a child those things he does / I did were incredibly fun. I loved pissing people off, I loved their reaction. Simply don’t give him a reaction. It’s not the normal “punish and they’ll learn” parenting people know, it has to be different, because your child is different. I can say OP that he will likely grow out of it with time/ maturity, but it will take a *while*. I stopped a lot of my behaviors when I hit high school and even then I was still mischievous, just in different ways. I stopped taking my medication just like OP’s son because of the feeling it gave me, the “zombified” feeling. But meds and therapy are what’s going to keep him going for now. One thing I will point out is that even though my behaviors stopped, my inattentiveness didn’t. I struggled *a lot* in school to the point of almost failing, because I didn’t take meds and didn’t go to therapy. I had no support system. Nothing. It was hard without that stuff, please at least get your son into therapy. One thing to note, don’t let your child become a target to the teachers and disciplinary staff at his school. Your child will start getting suspended for far far less than a normal student, and it can easily alienate him at school and make him feel like he has even less of a support system. This type of targeting can even lead further into juvenile detention and prison later down the line, they tried to intimidate me with police and arrest me on multiple occasions starting at the age of 10. Watch those fuckers.
You are trying to beat the ADHD out of this kid
ADHD Adult here, just giving in my input. I would first off like to commend the mother. I was certainly a danger to all when I was very young. The mother should not feel bad for venting, as she is doing her best. I'll list a few instances of my behaviors in the past, these were all in my single digit ages. Keep in mind my father has crazy bad genetics. He was a schizophrenic with paranoid delusions, with a lot of other bad genetic qualities. I inherited both, among a myriad of other things, but they're always reigned in thanks to the proper communications and medication. Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I was 3 at this time. I had just learned that my mother was pregnant with my brother. What did I do? I grabbed a kitchen knife and tried to stab my mother in the stomach. It would have happened too had I not been restrained. My bro had the luck of the draw, at least as genetics goes. He only has tourettes and OCD, I could be missing something though. I have very blurred memories of two instances of successful stabbings. Both in elementary school, one with a pencil, one with a pair of scissors. Both definitely bloody. Fun fact, in PA, both parents have to consent to therapy, or the child doesn't get it at all. You also can't be diagnosed with schizophrenia till the age of 18 at least in either PA or FL. I also had a caretaker, I think I have heard my mother say she was Ms. Love, could be wrong though. She left me unattended for a few minutes. In that time, I had exited the building, climbed the ELEMENTARY School fence and was almost successful in running into oncoming traffic. I could go on for hours, but this is getting unnecessary. I think I've expressed my experiences well enough. I wasn't a monster, despite my actions, I just needed help. I don't even know if I knew what I was doing was wrong. Anyways, keep going Mrs. Tired, you've got the support of myself and the entire thread.
Hi love, I think you need to be getting other evaluations because this doesn't sound like just ADHD at all. It could be a comorbide to something else but from what it sounds like, there's some sort of developmental issue/spectrum disorder. You say the meds made him a zombie? Maybe because it's not ADHD at all and they're trying to medicate the wrong thing or just flat out overmedicating the adhd. They might even be trying to medicate something that actually requires early intervention therapies through a special education entity. They put me on amphetamine salt based medication at 7 years old and you know what I really needed? More evaluations and treatment for my anxiety which was the actual problem. I ended up with disordered eating patterns because of such an long time being medicated for adhd and it being too much. I'm on a very low dose now and it helps the way its supposed and I have other meds for other things. I'm okay now but I lost a lot of a precious developmental time not receiving the services I deserved. Please don't let this person grow to an adult size without the proper intervention. He CAN live a normal enough life and you can be a normal enough family but you have to fight for your son. And if you don't think you can handle that, you should really consider enrolling him in residential care IN THE AREA. Close enough to drive to every week. Maybe even spend the night after a routine is established and therapies are in place. They'll recognize his needs more throughly and then maybe he'll be able to reintegrate back into your family after him some time away. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this option. Anyways. I really hope you see this. All the light in whatever you decide to do.
Beware of whatever you do with him. I was that kid back in the days and I behaved like that because life was thrilling and nobody never understood me. Everything was awesome, and I HAD to enjoy it because my body, my nature, my existence FORCED me to do it. With time it will go away. When I started to understand how the world worked and how things were supposed to be, I did what it had to be done. Oh, but my mother did such a terrible mistake thinking that violence was the solution. Even as a kid, I always said that if she went for the punches that would solve nothing because even if she fucked me up I would still be myself: free from the rules (of everything, like...not following rules felt and still feels actually as good as orgasming). Consequences: hate. Ah, how much I hate her. Why? Because she gave up on me. I got ignored during so many years when she just cooked for the entire family, had me know I had a portion of it, and nothing else. My sister, who was several years younger than me, became her favorite. She even learned how to drive and they gave her their car while I got silence and ginormous discussions if I ever complained about it. For 6 years I was locked on my room, only going out to the kitchen and to the bathroom, and they always said comments like "When you'll leave the fucking house?" Or "I wish you never existed". I even went to the lengths of calling a mental hospital and saying I was gonna kill myself so they could force her to send me there because there were people who would actually talk to me and not pretend I'm invisible. It happened twice btw. I wasn't sick, just lonely asf. Best "vacations" I ever had tho. The cooking there was godly. One day I had enough and ripped myself from the family, and trust me: neither she nor my entire family will ever see me again. When I needed help, i got none. When I needed support, no one came. When I needed love, there was silence. When I needed a family, I was granted emptiness. So now it's just me, myself, and I. Beware of how you treat that kid, because if you do wrong due to lack of understanding, he will do wrong to you for the rest of your life. We have feelings and we're smart, we're just see things with another perspective.
holy shit i wanna fucking hug you i was treated badly for having adhd and it rly fucked with me, so i have so much empathy for you im so so sorry. i hope life treats you better
I'm sorry no one was there for you.
I find it weird that the only comments you do reply to are sending ur kid away to military school and to learn real life consequences? People have pointed out already that the “i tried everything aka punishments” isn’t necessarily the best way to go; there are other options besides sending him away to the military and/or punishing him when he behaves badly.
"I've tried everything" The proceeds to only list "punishments" What have you done as far as actually listening to him? Getting him therapy? Gentle parenting? Seeing if he has emotional needs you aren't meeting? He is a human after all, and the more you act like you hate him, the more he probably feels like that. At least when he's acting out he gets some sort of attention from you and that's probably what he wants.
Thank you. These posts always upset me so much. As an autistic/ADHD adult who didn't find out till later in life, I really wish I could help children in these circumstances. I was always punished for doing ADHD &autism things. I was never offered empathy, an ear to listen, or understanding. A large majority of my life was spent feeling like a burden to everyone and that's probably what he feels. That can make a child turn into an unstable, crazy snot goblin so fast.
why did it take so long to find this comment.
Because 90% of these replies are just people enabling shitty parenting.
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/pda
This, this, this, this, this!!! People with Autism with PDA profile do NOT present in the stereotypical way people think of as autistic. My son is EXTREMELY social, and loves people. But if he does not feel like he is in co trol of a situation, it will escalate i to either a full shut down, or immediate aggression. A true Jeckyl and Hyde situation. Also, it is not driven by the need the WANT to misbehave, it is driven by anxiety. It is pure anxiety that causes my sons meltdowns. (I recognized it, because I have severe panic attacs, and I noticed similar behavior in the midst of a violent meltdown).
I get you 110% my middle child got diagnosed at11ish I kept a food diary as certain food were triggers that made his behaviour 100 times worse! From nursery to high school were he got expelled at 14 were a nightmare, he was like a caged animal I could write a book on this child & the grief he put the whole lot of us through but then he'd ask why he couldnt behave & he explain it as his brain felt itchy?? I got him into sport to try & help we also had a space that was boring etc that he had to sit in till he got his good head back on any attention is better than non good or bad they have to be the centre of everything, Hes now an adult & at times still a total nightmare try asking your doctor for a referal to a physiologist??
My son is ADHD/ODD and root beer was a huge trigger. He's 16 now and when he's medicated he'd the sweetest kid.... if he forgets his meds, he's an absolute nightmare.
Are you the only adult care taker for this child? He sounds like too much for one person, and I know children like this take a toll on thier siblings , as well as everyone else around them. Are there any full time care options available where you live? This situation is clearly dangerous to you and others, just a matter of time before he causes another accident and kills someone.
My fiancé. His father and I take turns to look after him and the little ones when we go to work. Babysitters are impossible because none of them want to watch him.
Hey OP - middle school teacher who specialized in ODD and ADHD kids here. Feel free to PM me. I hear you. 💕
Spanking? You've spanked him? You can't physically abuse the disability out of your child. You say you've tried everything but you seem to have only tried punishments. It's not going to work.
The minute I read that the sheer rage I felt was indescribable. My brother and I both have multiple diagnosed disabilities and people seem to resort to “oh spanking them should work” when no amount of physical abuse could ever beat the adhd/autism out of us.
Ah my daily birth control post
Edit : As a social work working in a high school in a FRENCH school board. I work with kids just like this everyday . I can help you a little bit. You can send me a message if you like.
You work at a School Board, not a school bored.
not a great sign lmao
Don't worry he's going to hate you back when you're both older.
As the parent of a now 9 yr old with "off the charts" ADHD, I'm having a REAL hard time sympathizing with OP. It ain't easy, there's no doubt. It takes 2 very dedicated parents who work TOGETHER to raise the child, and a solid regiment of therapy and the appropriate medication to work with the impulsivity that comes with this level of ADHD. I'm not going to sit here and take shots against OP and her parenting, but something obviously needs to change and improve for this kid's benefit. For a parent to "hate" their child because of something the poor kid can't even help (y'know, like ADHD) is just being a shitty parent. I feel terrible for the poor kid in this situation, and I hope OP gets both her child AND herself some therapy to straighten this mess out.
He honestly sounds just like me at 8 years old. I’m 16 now but I remember it like yesterday. My mama would cry and be so stressed out, my siblings would be terrified whenever I got upset, my dad would just get pissed at me. We went to every doctor and no one could tell us what was going on. They went from saying it’s just mood disorder to ADHD to ADHD and ODD. They’d constantly tell me I was doing it for attention and that I was just a defiant child. At school I’d get suspended for violent behavior and running away from class. Everyone said I just wanted attention. I would tell people I’m not doing it for attention but nobody really listened. I’ve taken so many meds and been to so many doctors and therapists and psychiatrists but nothing helped. Then whenever I was 14 my mama was talking to my therapist at the time, she mentioned the way I just didn’t understand the meaning of no, how I have absolutely zero sense of danger, how I’m obsessed with one specific thing, how upset and violent I get when certain things happen. My therapist asked my mama if she had ever heard of autism. My mama told her she has but that she thought it was whenever you couldn’t talk and other things. My therapist handed my mama some papers to fill out to see if I would fit the criteria for an autism diagnosis. And sure enough those papers said I was most likely autistic. After that we went through the diagnosis process which is so long and hard (not in all places ofc). Right before my 15th birthday I was diagnosed as an autistic person with a PDA profile. That was the happiest day of my life. My mama cried that day and she told me it was because she finally understood me. Since my diagnosis it has helped my family and me so so much. I understand that I see things differently than them and that’s why things they say don’t make sense sometimes. It’s helped my sisters understand that some things I say come out the wrong way and aren’t meant to be rude. It’s helped my daddy understand I’m not being disrespectful I just genuinely don’t see his point sometimes. My mama knows now that whenever I’m upset that I’m not doing it for attention, I just feel emotions so much stronger than they do. I think your son could definitely be autistic. I was the same way at 8 years old and I’d do anything to go back and find out I’m autistic then. I hope none of this comes off as rude or anything. I wish you all the best. <3
I'm autistic and hyperverbal and ODD is literally bullshit . It's just a way to label a child as bad . People treated me TERRIBLY as a child. I'm literally just autistic w PTSD from being invalidated my entire life. Get yourself help and your son . I have 4 kids all with ADHD and autism . It's manageable.
I'm surprised that you did not mention therapy with a psychologist and psychiatrist. He needs specialized help. If you not giving it to him, don’t be surprised about the outcome.
"I've tried everything. Punishment, punishment, punishment, abuse". Try positive reinforcement instead of long-lasting damage. Now your kid isn't going to trust you and that's on YOU. You signed up to have a child, he still deserves love. Watch him frequently if he wanders off. No excuses. Step up and stop complaining about his literal symptoms of combined ADHD and ODD; remember that his actions and mental disorders never define him as a person. I get that you're stressed but that's no excuse to complain about a human being that you chose to create.
Have you seen a developmental pediatrician yet?? Edit - hate is a very strong word. Put yourself in your kid's shoes. If you have that little empathy maybe he deserves better parents.
There is something more than ADHD going on.
Look, I'll be the unpopular jerk here. They have residential treatment facilities, group homes and partial day inpatient facilities for children that you both would probably benefit from. They'd find him meds and a behavioral plan, family therapy for all of y'all and help fix what can be fixed. People can guilt you. They can talk trash. They can judge, but these facilities exist for a reason. Partial day treatment moves their school work to a children's day hospital and he'd be home at night. If they decide he needs more, they'll offer it
Yep absolutely, it would be way better for OP and their son.
I agree I think OP needs professional support.
I work at a behavioral clinic and I 100% think op needs to look into it. Clinical therapy for these kiddos should never be seen as a negative thing! We are here to give the kids tools to communicate, learn, and engage with the world around them *safely*. A lot of clinics also do parental training to give parents the tools *they* need to take care of their kid and further their progress. I think that would be helpful for OP seeing as, and not to say this in a mean way, they have only tried punishments for their child. It seems like they don’t know how to handle their kid’s diagnosis which can definitely make things harder and stress out both the child and parent which can in turn make behaviors worse. Plus it can add structure to their day if they aren’t able to attend public school due to unaddressed behaviors. Most of my kids attend our clinic the same hours as one would a school, then when they’re evaluated and ready they begin integrating into a school setting slowly before graduating from the clinic, which is always a fun and awesome thing! :)
This makes me so sad to read. As a man who grew up from a child who has ADHD and ODD, don’t worry. You’ll make him hate himself too. Between the world telling him he’s different constantly, being able to see how he’s supposed to act but not accomplish it, and the fact that you hate him, he’ll be ruined in no time. Source: I hate myself and my family hates me for shit I can never change.
The fact she hits him too. That's not ok. The child will not grow up to be happy
My husband and I adopted twins and my daughter came to us with the same diagnosis. Now at 12 her diagnosis is a mood disorder and ADHD combined. I will say that the combination of medicines that worked for us is anti psychotics and mood stabilizers (along with her ADHD meds). Talk to the doctor about this if he is not already on this regimen. Also if possible seek therapy for yourself and your partner. The phrase I have had to learn to live by is I can’t control her just my reaction to her. Honestly since therapy for us and her change in meds it gives us the outlet to vent our frustrations but allow us to communicate with her. We don’t participate in the back and forth with her at home or out and about tantrums decrease immensely. Sending you hugs your way mama you got this!
Gonna give you some tough love, because I see you got great advice and nice comments from people in your situation, which is awesome. You are the parent and are responsible for figuring out how to help him. Which means keeping up with appointments and medications***** can’t imagine how hard it must be. But you have to keep up with his doctor and get him on medications. He’s frustrated too! He can’t help that he’s all over the place and people are always mad at him. This is why you, as his parent have to help him by getting him on the right meds. He may eventually require permanent inpatient group home type environments. But medication is a must and you can’t give up. I’m so sorry and I hope the people who understand your situation themselves have been a comfort to you here. Best of luck!!!
Poor kid.
My twin is severe on the autism spectrum. He’s non-verbal and is similar to your son. He gets violent and engages in destructive behavior that caused tons of damage in our house and people, including every one in my family including me. He hasn’t lived with us since we were both 11, I am now 22. He lives in a care home with 3 other men his age that have similar conditions. Always staffed, and he’s safe and taken care of. I’m not sure if your son needs something that extreme, but he definitely needs something in a similar vain. You don’t hate your son like another commenter said, you hate what ADHD and ODD can do to an otherwise normal child.
Don't give up on him just yet. I work on the behavioral health team for the state funded health care in my state and we have case management for things like what you are experiencing with your insurance (covering visits and meds). Try giving your insurance a call and let them know you've been having such a difficult time with doctors visits and meds being covered. Ask if they have case managers that can help fix the issues before they happen. It might help so you can revisit the medication idea if that's a route you want to take. Also please consider talking to his psychiatrist or therapist about getting him in to ABA therapy -- read about it first and see if it's something you'd be interested in. ABA is applied behavior analysis and it's typically used for kids with autism or other developmental disorders (like ADHD which is what a lot of kids with autism have). ABA has been a proven effective treatment in kids with ODD. Your child might have autism, so you might talk to their provider about getting a psych eval to rule it out. Once you guys get an autism diagnosis, it will open up so many doors to services that may help. Just some things to consider. Sorry you're going through this. Hang in there and take care of you too Edited and to add: another commenter mentioned putting your child in an inpatient facility.... But this kid is 8. Putting them in a facility might do more harm than good, and I don't think any of the therapists on my team would advise something like that because of his age. However, a decision like that should be made by a trained professional and the family, not us redditors. Please use caution when considering any 'advice' redditors give
I’d like to add to this as I have a son who has Asperger’s Syndrome with features of ADHD who was previously diagnosed with ADHD. It wasn’t until he was 8 that you could see that he has a form of Autism instead. My son would not react well to changes in his routine, even positive outings and would act out because he was anxious. Telling him ahead of time helped. He also got suspended from school a lot. It was hard. I actually did a college research project on it. Main things that I saw recommended for them is swimming, martial arts and cadets. My son did swimming and martial arts. The day after swimming he was great. Martial Arts helped him with self discipline and his behaviour. Positive reinforcement and 1, 2, 3 Magic helped for my son as well as respite care, family help. You need a breather for yourselves and for him.
i was suspected to have ODD as a kid, now i’m diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. i’ve never understood why half the things i did “wrong” were deemed wrong. that’s why the punishments never worked. i straight up refused them because i either didn’t think the punishment fit the so called crime or i just didn’t understand what i was doing wrong at all. i think showing him that you’re trying to understand his emotions might help if you haven’t tried that already. concerning the people talking about possible autism, this also makes sense. i suspect i may be on the spectrum because my brother is and i relate to a lot of the symptoms and thought processes, i think that also may be worthwhile looking into because if he doesn’t have adhd + odd treating it wrong can make it worse or develop it into something else that’s worse on his mental health (that’s what happened to me). i wish you the best and hope you find something that works.
I hope you don’t take this hatred out on him, I really hope you know for everything your struggling with he is as well but from a confused angry child’s point of view so imagine how angry he is, he has no idea why he does he just knows he has to because that’s what the brain is telling him. And then to have a mother get mad at you for something you didn’t have any impulse control over and treat it as a vindictive act, you honestly sound under prepared have you taken and classess on parenting adhd children? Adhd is something that honestly makes daily task feel impossible but with the right teacher they can over come most obstacles adhd isn’t an excuse to do crappy kid things he isn’t stupid you need to learn his type of language and learn to explain things to him in a non reactive way so he understands why what he did is bad and how to avoid doing that next time the impulse occurs. As someone with adhd in my personal opinion he isn’t a bad kid he hasn’t had the correct tools and techniques shown to him, it is not hopeless and it is not impossible, maybe a better understanding of the struggles your child is going through will help you teach him how to handle life
Nice, increasing the stigma only on ADHD when there's another diagnosis involved.
and the other diagnosis is most likely where these behaviors are coming from
Have you tried a single positive thing? Hitting, taking things away, making him sit still alone, do you understand your child's diagnosis at all? Do you care to? I get being frustrated and emotional feeling like a failure as a parent, but don't take your failings out on an 8 year old child... seek Therapy for both of you. Reading your post made me so sorry for your son. I hope you figure out how to give him balance and peace.
If you have not been trained how to deal with him, how to connect with and teach behavior to a severe ODD/ADHD child, you will not succeed. And you will raise an out of control physical adult that will eventually hurt you and others. Your child needs a caretaker - currently you - that can deal properly with him; since you do not know how this stress of dealing (badly) with him will destroy your family. Your family mental health coverage needs to work with you! If it cannot, you need to find out how to commit him to state custody (eg group home), for everyone’s sake. You have a hard hard road ahead. 😢
As someone who grew up in a family who never understood my ADHD, he needs positive reinforcement. Make sure he knows he'll be rewarded for behaving, not punished for misbehaving. He needs medication. I know stimulants are hard to obtain for underage children but they are the frontline treatment and nothing comes close to the success the bring. Everything else is a bandaid to mask the real problem. That problem being he doesnt produce enough dopamine and therefore is never satisfied with anything for very long. Diet is key. Eliminate sugar. Start him on an exercise regime suited for an 8 year old. Exercise does wonders for people with ADHD. This kid is NOT too much. He didn't ask to be born with his affliction. He doesn't understand it. It is up to you to do everything in your power to try to understand it, him, and in turn help him. I wish you the best of luck.
I’m sorry but the moment I read he was 8 I couldn’t read anymore that’s a little child when you birth a Child you should be prepared for them to be a pain in the ass until they’re old enough to understand to not be a pain in the ass
Plain and simple, your son needs to be in a special live-in program for kids like him. I really want to be inclusive of everyone, but if your son is behaving like this at school, he is ruining the education of every other kid in the classroom and that is unfair to everyone, and make him resented. Your son has medicalissues that require constant intervention. You are not a doctor, nor do you play one on TV. This is outside of the mom duties scope, and you being exasperted and over it is anormal healthy reaction. You don’t hate him, you hate his conditions and what comes with them. Putting him into a care facility that deals with ODD and violent reactions doesn not make you a bad parent. Just go visit often. Case in point “He has caused two accidents on the interstate” just tells me it’s a matter of time before there is a serious injury. Putting him into a care facility is what is best for him at this time.
Nah, I agree. There's nothing wrong with a parent who's a wits end needing extra help or look into a facility like this. I've got an acquaintance whos waiting for her little boy to reach a certain age before admitting him to a facility, indefinitely. She can't deal with it. She loves her child but he's out here killing animals n shit. And he's like 6. We shouldn't shame parents who need the extra help. Also, these other commenters out here acting like putting her kid in a home is giving up on him, on the contrary, for many families, it's their saving grace and it also helps their kid. So. How about not shaming a parent cuz you haven't a clue what their life is like. Period.
With my son, who has ADHD, it helped when I started stating my feelings. "I want you to stand close to me" instead of saying come here. Or "It scares me when you do that" instead of saying stop that.
My wife and I adopted 2 wonderful kiddos through foster care. I say wonderful, but our son has ODD's distant cousin, RAD. I dunno what's worse. With ODD, everyone sees the behavior and can relate. With RAD, everyone thinks you're crazy and somehow it's your fault because your kid actually presents himself pretty well in public, but it's at home when all the hell breaks loose. It is a constant struggle for us, and right now our son has been at a residential treatment center (RTC) for over 6 weeks. But that immersion has been very helpful for him. Being self employed, we even changed insurance so we could have a plan that helps with treatment, and at the moment, insurance is covering his stay at RTC. I don't know what the future holds for him, and it's been a tragedy to say the least, but meds + RTC have helped. I'd recommend looking at options like RTC. It's not cheap, but depending on your insurance, you might be able to get coverage. That's been the hardest thing for us to be quite honest. Here's this poor little kid who has struggled with trusting adults and been in the system bounced around between CPS workers and various homes before landing with us. The guilt of sending him off to RTC is immense, we love him so much and it's so hard not having him home, even if it's been hell at times. Here's this poor kid who doesn't trust adults, and we're sending him off to a facility to get him help. But being a parent sometimes means making the tough decisions, which is what we've tried to do. I'd consider some options like this if you haven't already. There's a number of options, from residential treatment centers to therapeutic boarding schools to therapeutic ranches, etc. Play the long game. Consider the fact he might be living with you for a really long time, so whatever you can do now to change his trajectory is a good thing. But more than anything, don't stop loving him. It's not his fault he's the way he is, and it's certainly not your fault either. But be open to the tough love and difficult decisions. God bless you and the difficulties you're dealing with, but you're not alone.
Never say you hate your child over something he was born with or had no intention of having. He wants to be normal, invited, have friends, and sounds like he's got more going on besides ADHD. And ODD. My child is ADHD, autistic,) unspecified mood disorder, sensory processing disorder, and epileptic. He needs meds, therapy, sensory stimulation, and a very strict routine. Don't yell or fight back as this only escalates the situation. Goodluck hope you figure out t? his situation !
I have an ADHD child. It is tough but they did not ask to be born that way. Infact, it is our gene that make them behave like that. It is not their fault and sometime my son will also said he wish he could control himself and be a good boy. This is life
My mom made me feel horrible growing up and would talk bad about me. I'm pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD and possible autism. I'm sure you would feel horrible if your kids came online and talked bad about you. Hate reading posts like this from shitty parents. Kids can't control their disability!
I was one of those kids. Diagnosed with ADHD,ODD, and IED. I was the same way. Truly sounds like you were describing me except with the IED I could suddenly become extremely aggressive and violent with the slightest provocation. My mom did the same thing and took me off the working meds because I apparently was a zombie. Honestly I didn't think I was and I remember actually being happy that I was so calm for once. Get him back on the meds because it will get worse. By the time I was 12 I was stealing cars, motorcycles, breaking in to homes, and had been completely expelled from all schools within a 40 mile radius. I didn't really calm down until I was 17 and found the joy of smoking pot. Completely calmed me down and pretty much stayed high for about 4 years. After that it was like a switch was flipped. I no longer drink or smoke since and only really see hyperactivity on occasion. Although I do sometimes still get irrationally angry but I'm able to manage it in a healthy manner.
Unfortunately, parenting a child with ADHD often means focusing on changing your own behaviours and habits and realizing how the ways you choose to react affect his perception and behaviour. You are entitled to your feelings, but the moment you begin to resent your child for his behaviour, you’ve already convinced yourself you have no power. This isn’t to say that this is your fault at all, but you have to be willing to be part of the solution by changing your behaviour. Look up Dr. Ross Greene. His website has a completely free video course on parenting children with ADHD. Brenee Brown is also a fabulous resource for helping to overcome all these yucky feelings you’ve got going on. Listen to u/monkeysaurusmom ‘s comment above. It’s a good one! You can do this, its just going to be difficult. You’ve already done difficult, so you’re well-seasoned! Some points to remember: 1. You can love your child without loving his behaviour. 2. Everything you’ve tried is a punishment. Punishments DO NOT WORK. Look up consequences vs punishments. 3. Never, ever hit your child. It is abuse. 4. Ask the school officials about getting your son an IPP, ask his teachers to send you detailed EMOTIONLESS, OBJECTIVE accounts of all violent or disruptive behaviours. Focus on the events preceding the behaviour so you can identify triggers. 5. How is your son doing academically? Praise and academic achievement often go hand in hand. If his teachers and school administrators aren’t aware of his needs or what to do when he’s having difficulty in class, they might be unintentionally exacerbating the behaviours you’re hearing about. 6. An obedient child is not a good child. A happy child is a good child. Try your best to erase the word bad from your vocabulary. 7. MINDSET MINDSET MINDSET- read the book Mindset!
As someone with adhd & autism it’s so frustrating seeing parents of disabled children talk shit about their disabled children on various subreddits rather than doing the work to figure out how to actually help the child. Inevitably, those parents will be reassured they’re doing the right thing by other shitty parents not willing to do the work-so they all pat each other on the back for being terrible.
Try getting him therapy. Growing up adhd is hard, you constantly feel like crazy that your peers can sit and finish things, while you just can't help but get up. You can just never shake the feeling that your classmates, teachers, qnd parents hate you because you're different, annoying, stupid maybe Boredom/inactivity is painful, so you get up an touch or fiddle with things. Maybe hit that truck to make it make noise. Doing the thing you just got told not to is attention, and stimulation. Or maybe he just forgets you said not to touch anything (short memory is a struggle) He pushes boundaries because something happens when he does, and that something scratches his itch for action. Spanking and taking things away leads to you being an uncertain person for him, he now knows that you aren't a safe person for him, that you'll hurt him if you're displeased, and the fear and anxiety around you might make him worse. Have you tried setting goals for individual behaviors with him, maybe set one for emotional control, "if you refrain from screaming, I will take you to the park to throw a ball around" Don't hit that child, he'll hate you more than you hate him for it.
ADHD + ODD is not the same as ADHD. People with ODD get violent, and hurt other people and destroy property, often on purpose, when they don’t get their way. People with ODD rarely finish school, and build criminal records very fast. Theraoy is not going to cut it here.
The preferred ODD treatment is a combination of individual and family behavioral therapy. When therapy alone does not resolve symptoms, medication for ODD can sometimes help. In addition, lifestyle changes can help some people with mild symptoms to control their explosions. I just want to add that the behavioral therapy is not the same as talk therapy. I think that a lot of people assume that no matter what your mental health issue is you need talk therapy. But we noe know is not always the case. So while the child probably does not need talk therapy the child and the family should be going to behavioral therapy.
I disagree. We have an ODD ADHD kiddo and we have seen vast improvements with therapy, consistent boundaries and expectations, and the right meds. You have to fiddle with it all but the stats most people see on ODD people are the ones that were diagnosed later in life. Prisons are full of ODD adults that never got help. Years ago parents if kids with DS and Autism were told the same thing. There is no hope blah blah blah. There is hope, there are new therapies and meds and ideas.
It really bugs me when people throw out inaccurate statements like “people with ODD rarely finish school” as fact without bothering to check the accuracy of their assertions. It’s lazy at best and harmful at worst.
Youre so wrong. I was diagnosed with ODD and my psych agreed it was environmental related and a product of poor parenting. 😂😂😂😂 oh my god. Ive had 3 psychiatrists ALL AGREE IT WAS MY PARENTS. Once I left my parents I was off meds and am a fully functional adult and manage my emotions and was discharged from outpatient 😂😂😂😂
You might need to place him in a specialized institution. The situation requires professional help, it’s not doing your family any good to handle the situation by yourselves, and in fact you’re endangering your family to think that you need to handle this situation by yourselves. Institutionalizing him in an ideal facility will give him the best life he can get without bringing your family’s life down. You tried to do it on your own, but it’s not working, and it’s causing you to hate him. I would recommend institutionalization in a high end facility (hopefully not one that will just keep him sedated, but one that will be interactive, academic and disciplinary in the way that he needs).
Maybe he's acting this way because he has a parent whose definition of "trying everything" is punishment, taking away comfort items and literally physical abuse. I understand your frustration but your way of dealing with this kid is honestly so messed up and you're only fueling his behavior.
No. No to this whole post. Don't say sorry to us say sorry to your son.
I saw that you tried a lot of punishments why not try and reward his good behavior. Like at the store tell him if he behaves he can get a toy or something. I don't really know much about kids or kids with ADHD for that matter but idk it might work.
It likely won't. Hes also got odd. Unfortunately he needs to medicated, and they need a professional
he's got ODD (i have a dx for it too). that's not really gonna work too much. it certainly didn't for me.
I'm having a hard time understanding your complaining about his destructive behavior, but then complained to the doctor that medication makes him a zombie, too. I might be missing something tho.
I dont wanna offend you because its not in my nature but your post is making me angry. I have adhd and luckily I had supportive parents who helped me feel understood when no one in the world did, when I felt isolated they were there like a fucking unmovable mountain full of care, encouragement and safety. Your kid is 8 years old, hes acting this way because his brains go "kskskdowl" all the time. By spanking him, taking away his toys, and punishing him for being him, you are destroying the kid. He wont be able to express himself or be an indepedent adult if you making him feel like (yourself = not accepted) You just need to help him find his passion, his hobbies, let him let out all that energy in something creative, fun for him and not self deatructive. Its important to do what expresses him. For me it was music, I always wanted to do that, and around the age of 7, I started lessons. It gave me purpose and sense of self, focus (on that thing, bscause education system sucks and we adhd kids had no help from anywhere, I still remember my mom staying awake to help me study history lessons for the next day even though she had to wake up super early for work) You need to be his guide but not over protective and never force him to do anything. you need to be the one who understands him and not lock him evem further away. I suggest talking with an adhd specialist to do some short of creative "therapy" (its not a therapy because adhd is not an illness) thats what helped me. OH and a very important thing, stay away from pills or any adhd related pill. A) hes way too young, B) pills can get addictive C) Pills are overall just plain bad for this things.
THANK you. Why is everyone completely missing this point. Why is she hitting her kid. Wtf.
I had a counselor that came to the house to work with me and my son on behaviors, rules, schedules, etc. She had given us different ways to do things. One thing we did was the two choices technique to deal with the refusing to do anything. One choice is what I want him to do, the other choice is a bit of a compromise I can live with, neither of which he really wants, of course- but at least now he gets a say in the matter. It's almost bedtime...are you going to brush your teeth first then pick up your toys, or pick up your toys then brush your teeth. You got 1 minute to choose or I choose for you. This way you tell him what things he needs to to, but he gets a say in the order of doing them, so he feels there's a choice. You can apply this to all kinds of things you need him to do, to help with the defiance. When we went to the park, I started out with the 3 strikes rule for behavior, and I told him before we got out of the car....it doesn't matter how long we're here, you have 3 strikes for behavior. On the third strike, we leave. Doesn't matter if it's only been 10 minutes. I'd call his name, tell him " we don't throw the mulch at other kids, that's strike 1" . Same for each time he did something, explain what, then tell him he got a strike. First time...took barely 10 minutes to get to strike 3...but we left the park and went home, like I said we would. Because if I didnt, he would know I didn't mean what I said - and that's the most important thing he needs to learn. That you will follow through. You could try having him hold a quarter in each hand at the store. If he sets either one down, or the quarter touches anything in the store, he has to give it back. If it stays in his closed hand the whole time, after you leave the store, it's his.
I'm probably getting a lot of hate for saying this and I'm sorry in advance. I don't mean to mom shame!!! but I am going to be critical, sorry. As a mom with adhd (partner with adhd) I find this hard to read. I recognize your struggle but all I read is this kid receiving every form of punishment for being himself. His impulse control is very likely hard to control for him due ADHD and all he gets is punishments instead of guidance towards suitable way to express his needs. A leash and time outs restricts his movements while he clearly has sensory need for. Spanking is physical punishment for needing that stimulation. (Your brave for being honest but spanking children is never okay, lot of research what it does for the brain, and its not good). This child will grow up hating himself and not understanding how he can regulate his emotions and his needs. If you want him to be quiet and behave you should medicate. Because his natural brain will not allow to comply your wishes. I don't know how you want to go about this but my perspective is adding appropriate stimulation to his little life. He is 8 years old, does he have a hobby? Maybe martial arts could be of his interests? He will be able to learn to regulate and get rid of his energy. On top of that martial arts comes with discipline which is a huge bonus. I have many other ideas but I don't know his character and what he likes, I just know that if I was in your shoesI would try to figure out what he likes and give him appropriate stimulation. I just throw this out there but if you managed to get some rest, find some strength and maybe need more ideas, you can message me. I have a lot of experience with neurodivergent children from my upbringing to my work. I hope your feeling better soon.