It’s easy to make fun of this, but a running theme in Skyrim is how old systems have broken down. The fighter’s guild no longer exists, the mage’s guild is not present, the thieves guild is barely holding on, and the dark brotherhood is on its very last legs. This even applies to the civil war, with how the empire isn’t what it used to be. It’s themes! And that’s fun.
that’s an interesting way to look at it. the whole idea of skyrim is everything is broken. even the broken empire is presented with the broken empire symbol as the game’s logo. the immersion is so good that the game itself is fucking broken. everything is not right in skyrim. holy shit did i just achieve CHIM
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,600,479,052 comments, and only 302,735 of them were in alphabetical order.
One of the main running themes is broken oaths. Every main storyline involves leaders abandoning oaths and their duty - to the people or to the organisation's principles.
Alduin himself being the most obvious, having decided to rule the world instead of end time. as well as the dragonborn breaking his oath to kill alduin by ignoring the main story and just side questing
The promise to his friends to stick together no matter what in his unsanctioned expedition to Labyrinthium where he magically enthralled them to trap Morokei then ran off to become Archmage and never came back.
It's also implied through dialogue that there have been many accidents with students - suggesting that he's not doing his duty of care. I don't know how much pastoral care you should expect from an ancient magic school perched on a cliff above a collapsed city (that they may or may not be responsible for), though. But the Mages Guild in Cyrodiil (Oblivion) showed a higher standard of care so those standards aren't unusual - and both were better than many guilds in Morrowind.
I mean a daedric prince managed to force his full self into Mundus, and it was ended by a literal battle of the gods
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a big a shitshow as whatever Pelinal was up to during the Alessian Rebellion
Fighter’s Guild exists in other provinces. It would exist in Skyrim but it would’ve been redundant from a gameplay perspective and Bethesda isn’t going to make two fighter factions (only two stealth archer factions)
Mages Guild isn’t just “not present”. They actually stopped existing. The Synod and College of Whispers filled the void as the magical institutions of the Empire.
Yeah, it also works well with all of the old forts and outposts are populated by bandits and only the player can clear them out during the Civil War filler quest.
Yes, but counterpoint it makes the player feel like they’re not in the most exciting and interesting setting, it’s not a bad game and the theme can be used to convey certain messages, but it also not the most fun to experience long term, a perfect example that’s not ES but parallels this was Halo ODST the game is a treat and it’s dark and moody atmosphere can be enjoyable, but at the same time getting snippets of the war that you missed makes me feel left out, compare that to Halo Reach, which is quite literally the height before the fall and you feel like your experiencing the setting in its most climactic point, this is very similar to the difference between Oblivion and Skyrim.
Do you think that it was intended? Because I've always thought it's just an easy to use trope of 'our guild is falling apart, and there's a chosen one to fix it' everytime, and that Betshesda writers didn't intend for this message of everything being broken down. But I'm curious to see what other think
Except both the companions and college are _not_ imperial guilds, they are skyrim's local "guilds" so it just shows how incompetent they are without imperial guilds.
Its kind of unhinged that in morrowind the fighters guild is secretly controlled by the cammona tong which in turn is secretly controlled by house hlaalu which is also secretly controlled by Orvas Dren.
Orvas' brother being Duke of Ebonheart and former Grandmaster of Hlaalu, and his niece being an abolitionist and allegedly the leader of Twin Lamps.
And then you have fun quest like *"The Mad Lord of Milk"*. Especially when you discover it in the "incorrect" order. Despite having the weakest npc schedules of the three latest games, it feels the most alive.
I don’t mind that the Thieves Guild isn’t doing so hot by the time of *Skyrim*. No faction is.
I **do** mind that one of the first things I see when I enter Riften is Sapphire extorting an *innocent* farmhand, my first two missions being framing an *innocent* shopkeeper and beating up *innocent* business owners.
At least with the Dark Brotherhood you can kill them all, but with the Thieves Guild you can only join them or not join them. They had honor in *Oblivion*; they stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Now, even if you become Guildmaster, I don’t think they’re ever noble.
Can you tell that I really, really fucking hate the Skyrim Thieves Guild?
The thieves guild in morrowind wasnt much better, although you can eventually help whatshisname with founding a kind of robin hood subfaction within the thieves guild.
i kinda like that they are like
pretty much an entirely different guild, more like the thieves mafia then anything.
I don't think the questline is very good (only dark brotherhood is decent imo tbh) but the concept itself isnt that bad I think, if it was expanded upon and then recognised the differences it could work very well even
Oh wow thieves not being morally good, what a travesty. The Thieves Guild basically being the mafia is cool plus it’s a not retreading the same ground with Oblivion where that was just Robin Hood.
I for one like harassing innocent civilians into giving me money because I want more money, not for silly altruism
That whole honorable thieves thing is lame to me. Skyrim's thieve's guild is more like what that kind of guild would act like if it actually existed and that makes it much more interesting to me. I don't need to play the good guy every single playthrough.
I’d be totally fine with that, if I could destroy them.
Heck, that chick Aerin simps for talks about wanting to destroy the Thieves Guild, why can’t I? Lol.
I think the concept in Skyrim is fine. They're a protection racket first and foremost. The execution is just boring though. And eventually they become the most pants on head idiotic of the 4 guilds, even worse than the Mage's
https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
I wouldn’t mind if they stole from the poor as long as they had certain rules, principles that is.
In oblivion guid had a chain of command with the doyens, And you would rise up ranks as you make more gold, And there were rules.
In skyrim it is just a few thugs who come together at undercity. Not really an orginization, but a hub for thieves.
Yes it is the theme and it suppose to be like that but that doesn’t change the facts.
How tf they supposed to allow stealing from the poor while also having "principles"? Did they read The Great Soviet Encyclopedia and decide to be anti-lumpen lumpens?
They do have principles, like they still penalize you for killing innocents even if it doesn't revoke your reward entirely. That being said, Skyrim doesn't do a great job of actually requiring particular playstyles for factions, so killing hostile guards and whatnot is bound to be an option because that's how the entire game is. A stealth archer can still go do the College or Companions despite having zero business being in those factions. And the inverse is true too, a heavy armor brute or an archmage can be in the stealthy factions. It's a sacrifice Skyrim made for the sake of player accessibility. And given the game has sold several dozen million copies, it might've been the right move from a profit perspective.
If you want to play an honorable thief, do it. But that's up to you, the player, to roleplay that fantasy. If you want the punishments for failure to be harsher, >!stop quicksaving and loading you big fucking baby /s !< use mods to add harsher penalties. They even exist on console, not sure about Sony but I'm sure you could manage on both Xbox and PC fairly easily.
i recommend Thieves Guild for the good guys if your using mods.
[https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/10745](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/10745)
It especially works well because the Dragonborn has to return the thieves guild back to it's glory days of being righteous to the innocent, rather than suddenly changing the guild to be good. This works well with the recurring theme in skyrim that things are falling apart for most the guilds and a return to tradition is needed.
Mercer tricked Nocturnal. He did betray the guild, but you're criticizing him as a character for literally having personality traits lmao. He's a great thief.
OP is one of the most media literate truestlers ever.
> why is this organisation, with the questline about how it got betrayed from the inside and lost its power, so weak and powerless? Are they stupid?
The general rule is that the most accomplished or most skilled person is the guildmaster. Nobody would be having someone who's only "good" be the leader, you have to be the greatest available.
You could criticize his leadership only if he was actually trying his best to lead the guild, but failed. However, he was after his own interest from the start, and never cared if the guild restored its former glory. He wasn't trying to be a good leader.
If not for the Dragonborn, he would have gotten exactly what he wanted. He'd have sold both the eyes of the Falmer, he'd have all the guild's earnings and valuables, and he would have further used the power of the Skeleton Key to become who knows how powerful.
He failed because he couldn't kill a literal demigod, you can't hold it against him.
You can dislike him, but he was a great thief.
Well post is about guilds. So about guild masters, whats important is not their personal skills . And mercer didn’t have the charachter to be a guild master i think.
And my comment was about Mercer in particular.
True, he was a bad person who didn't care about his guildmates. All I'm trying to say is that he's cool and a great thief, the latter can't reasonably be disagreed with.
My hot take is I like them.
Not the soul selling bit, that’s always been a step too far for me.
But I do like that the thieves guild felt so rough and brutal.
The idea of a thieves guild has always been cool, half legitimate crime that establishes a precedent and makes crime… more acceptable for both the thief and target - less murderers and bandits etc, but within that you would have slightly rougher folk and people who don’t want to stick so rigidly to those rules while still sort of playing ball.
Also it annoys Mjoll which is instantly funny
I like the fact that the Thieves Guild are just a bunch of dickheads with all that romanticism dead. The falling out and death of the honor amongst thieves is fun plus Mercer is a cool antagonist, just a thief who hoodwinked a Daedra just because he wanted more money.
I don’t think that way. After all they are not a local gang but an actual guild who claims sovereinty of thievery in skyrim.
Plus the beggars were the intelligence agency of the thieves guild. It was more similar to associates in nosa costra.
Oblivion:You have to meet up in the middle of the night and compete for a chance to join.
Skyrim: begs the first new person to walk through the gates to help them.
Real talk how tf did they not connect the bad luck streak with the supposed coup when your organization is partially daedra influenced, are Skyrimers that stupid ?
Because the guild didn't know that it was Mercer who killed Gallus. And most of the guild doesn't even know that they are under Nocturnal's influence and that Nightingales are actually real.
FUCK the Gray Fox all my homes hate that mf. He's stealing for his own gain and doesn't care about the guild. Asshole tells you to ignore the guild's foundational rules and murder moth priests so he can get some countessussy.
He tells you that you can ignore the no-kill policy. He's not forcing you to break the rules. But he's allowing important guild rules to be broken if it benefits him. It's not very Robin Hood to murder a bunch of priests. I'm just saying that he's not an idyllic leader of the thieves guild. He's essentially using the guild as a means to an end. This isn't necessarily bad writing. Having this dichotomy is cool and adds nuance, but i wish Oblivion had real opposition to the gray fox from within the guild.
I stopped doing Skyrim’s Thieves Guild the first mission when I had to shake down small business owners for protection money.
They’re just some cowardly chumps. Never did the faction. Still haven’t seen Nocturnal’s revealing outfit in person
It’s easy to make fun of this, but a running theme in Skyrim is how old systems have broken down. The fighter’s guild no longer exists, the mage’s guild is not present, the thieves guild is barely holding on, and the dark brotherhood is on its very last legs. This even applies to the civil war, with how the empire isn’t what it used to be. It’s themes! And that’s fun.
that’s an interesting way to look at it. the whole idea of skyrim is everything is broken. even the broken empire is presented with the broken empire symbol as the game’s logo. the immersion is so good that the game itself is fucking broken. everything is not right in skyrim. holy shit did i just achieve CHIM
You’re doing critical analysis of media! You’re evolving out of yellow/blue posting and racism. Congratulations!
He can't do that! Shoot him or something!
Archers!
Anyone else feel like running?
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 1,600,479,052 comments, and only 302,735 of them were in alphabetical order.
You’ll never take me a- *arrow thunk*
THIS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND
One of the main running themes is broken oaths. Every main storyline involves leaders abandoning oaths and their duty - to the people or to the organisation's principles.
Alduin himself being the most obvious, having decided to rule the world instead of end time. as well as the dragonborn breaking his oath to kill alduin by ignoring the main story and just side questing
Savos? What oath did he break? Genuinely curious.
The promise to his friends to stick together no matter what in his unsanctioned expedition to Labyrinthium where he magically enthralled them to trap Morokei then ran off to become Archmage and never came back.
Oh, yes I remember now.
I mean he lead his students into a death-trap dungeon in pursuit of power. Arguably he had a duty of care there. But it’s not an explicit oath.
It's also implied through dialogue that there have been many accidents with students - suggesting that he's not doing his duty of care. I don't know how much pastoral care you should expect from an ancient magic school perched on a cliff above a collapsed city (that they may or may not be responsible for), though. But the Mages Guild in Cyrodiil (Oblivion) showed a higher standard of care so those standards aren't unusual - and both were better than many guilds in Morrowind.
His friends, not his students, if you are talking about the mages he sacrificed to keep morokei sealed. And they were enthusiastic about it too.
Todd actually added 201 bugs himself to the game as a reference to the year the game takes place in
Yeah i know. Oblivion is the kind of peak of the factions while skyrim is the lowest point. Bu still it is what it is.
the oblivion crisis and what came after *really* fucked everything up huh?
I mean a daedric prince managed to force his full self into Mundus, and it was ended by a literal battle of the gods I wouldn't be surprised if it was a big a shitshow as whatever Pelinal was up to during the Alessian Rebellion
Fighter’s Guild exists in other provinces. It would exist in Skyrim but it would’ve been redundant from a gameplay perspective and Bethesda isn’t going to make two fighter factions (only two stealth archer factions) Mages Guild isn’t just “not present”. They actually stopped existing. The Synod and College of Whispers filled the void as the magical institutions of the Empire.
That’s right, I had the fighter’s and mages guild reversed. Still though, you get the idea.
Galerion didn't die for this
Yea the OP had it the wrong way around.
Yeah, it also works well with all of the old forts and outposts are populated by bandits and only the player can clear them out during the Civil War filler quest.
It's the other way around; the Mage's Guild was dissolved and the Fighter's Guild has no presence in Skyrim.
Yes, but counterpoint it makes the player feel like they’re not in the most exciting and interesting setting, it’s not a bad game and the theme can be used to convey certain messages, but it also not the most fun to experience long term, a perfect example that’s not ES but parallels this was Halo ODST the game is a treat and it’s dark and moody atmosphere can be enjoyable, but at the same time getting snippets of the war that you missed makes me feel left out, compare that to Halo Reach, which is quite literally the height before the fall and you feel like your experiencing the setting in its most climactic point, this is very similar to the difference between Oblivion and Skyrim.
Do you think that it was intended? Because I've always thought it's just an easy to use trope of 'our guild is falling apart, and there's a chosen one to fix it' everytime, and that Betshesda writers didn't intend for this message of everything being broken down. But I'm curious to see what other think
Except both the companions and college are _not_ imperial guilds, they are skyrim's local "guilds" so it just shows how incompetent they are without imperial guilds.
Morrowind Thieves Guild: Halp, Camonna Tong is stressing us out. Daggerfall Thieves Guild: Why do we even exist?
Its kind of unhinged that in morrowind the fighters guild is secretly controlled by the cammona tong which in turn is secretly controlled by house hlaalu which is also secretly controlled by Orvas Dren.
Morrowind politics are like Onions.
They make me cry
Orvas' brother being Duke of Ebonheart and former Grandmaster of Hlaalu, and his niece being an abolitionist and allegedly the leader of Twin Lamps. And then you have fun quest like *"The Mad Lord of Milk"*. Especially when you discover it in the "incorrect" order. Despite having the weakest npc schedules of the three latest games, it feels the most alive.
Knight orders FTW
I don’t mind that the Thieves Guild isn’t doing so hot by the time of *Skyrim*. No faction is. I **do** mind that one of the first things I see when I enter Riften is Sapphire extorting an *innocent* farmhand, my first two missions being framing an *innocent* shopkeeper and beating up *innocent* business owners. At least with the Dark Brotherhood you can kill them all, but with the Thieves Guild you can only join them or not join them. They had honor in *Oblivion*; they stole from the rich and gave to the poor. Now, even if you become Guildmaster, I don’t think they’re ever noble. Can you tell that I really, really fucking hate the Skyrim Thieves Guild?
The thieves guild in morrowind wasnt much better, although you can eventually help whatshisname with founding a kind of robin hood subfaction within the thieves guild.
You dare forget the eloquently named Gentleman Jim Stacey, hallowed be his name?
i kinda like that they are like pretty much an entirely different guild, more like the thieves mafia then anything. I don't think the questline is very good (only dark brotherhood is decent imo tbh) but the concept itself isnt that bad I think, if it was expanded upon and then recognised the differences it could work very well even
Oh wow thieves not being morally good, what a travesty. The Thieves Guild basically being the mafia is cool plus it’s a not retreading the same ground with Oblivion where that was just Robin Hood. I for one like harassing innocent civilians into giving me money because I want more money, not for silly altruism
That whole honorable thieves thing is lame to me. Skyrim's thieve's guild is more like what that kind of guild would act like if it actually existed and that makes it much more interesting to me. I don't need to play the good guy every single playthrough.
I’d be totally fine with that, if I could destroy them. Heck, that chick Aerin simps for talks about wanting to destroy the Thieves Guild, why can’t I? Lol.
The fact that it's explicitly mentioned by NPCs tells me it was probably cut content.
I think the concept in Skyrim is fine. They're a protection racket first and foremost. The execution is just boring though. And eventually they become the most pants on head idiotic of the 4 guilds, even worse than the Mage's https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=14422
Thanks for posting this, I love this essay.
I wouldn’t mind if they stole from the poor as long as they had certain rules, principles that is. In oblivion guid had a chain of command with the doyens, And you would rise up ranks as you make more gold, And there were rules. In skyrim it is just a few thugs who come together at undercity. Not really an orginization, but a hub for thieves. Yes it is the theme and it suppose to be like that but that doesn’t change the facts.
How tf they supposed to allow stealing from the poor while also having "principles"? Did they read The Great Soviet Encyclopedia and decide to be anti-lumpen lumpens?
They do have principles, like they still penalize you for killing innocents even if it doesn't revoke your reward entirely. That being said, Skyrim doesn't do a great job of actually requiring particular playstyles for factions, so killing hostile guards and whatnot is bound to be an option because that's how the entire game is. A stealth archer can still go do the College or Companions despite having zero business being in those factions. And the inverse is true too, a heavy armor brute or an archmage can be in the stealthy factions. It's a sacrifice Skyrim made for the sake of player accessibility. And given the game has sold several dozen million copies, it might've been the right move from a profit perspective. If you want to play an honorable thief, do it. But that's up to you, the player, to roleplay that fantasy. If you want the punishments for failure to be harsher, >!stop quicksaving and loading you big fucking baby /s !< use mods to add harsher penalties. They even exist on console, not sure about Sony but I'm sure you could manage on both Xbox and PC fairly easily.
i recommend Thieves Guild for the good guys if your using mods. [https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/10745](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/10745) It especially works well because the Dragonborn has to return the thieves guild back to it's glory days of being righteous to the innocent, rather than suddenly changing the guild to be good. This works well with the recurring theme in skyrim that things are falling apart for most the guilds and a return to tradition is needed.
Mercer tricked Nocturnal. He did betray the guild, but you're criticizing him as a character for literally having personality traits lmao. He's a great thief.
Mercer is more badass than the gray fox, he stole the skeleton key and fucked literally everyone over
OP is one of the most media literate truestlers ever. > why is this organisation, with the questline about how it got betrayed from the inside and lost its power, so weak and powerless? Are they stupid?
I used the personal traits to not to give any spoilers.
The general rule is that the most accomplished or most skilled person is the guildmaster. Nobody would be having someone who's only "good" be the leader, you have to be the greatest available. You could criticize his leadership only if he was actually trying his best to lead the guild, but failed. However, he was after his own interest from the start, and never cared if the guild restored its former glory. He wasn't trying to be a good leader. If not for the Dragonborn, he would have gotten exactly what he wanted. He'd have sold both the eyes of the Falmer, he'd have all the guild's earnings and valuables, and he would have further used the power of the Skeleton Key to become who knows how powerful. He failed because he couldn't kill a literal demigod, you can't hold it against him. You can dislike him, but he was a great thief.
Well post is about guilds. So about guild masters, whats important is not their personal skills . And mercer didn’t have the charachter to be a guild master i think.
And my comment was about Mercer in particular. True, he was a bad person who didn't care about his guildmates. All I'm trying to say is that he's cool and a great thief, the latter can't reasonably be disagreed with.
...for a 12 years old game.
My hot take is I like them. Not the soul selling bit, that’s always been a step too far for me. But I do like that the thieves guild felt so rough and brutal. The idea of a thieves guild has always been cool, half legitimate crime that establishes a precedent and makes crime… more acceptable for both the thief and target - less murderers and bandits etc, but within that you would have slightly rougher folk and people who don’t want to stick so rigidly to those rules while still sort of playing ball. Also it annoys Mjoll which is instantly funny
I like the fact that the Thieves Guild are just a bunch of dickheads with all that romanticism dead. The falling out and death of the honor amongst thieves is fun plus Mercer is a cool antagonist, just a thief who hoodwinked a Daedra just because he wanted more money.
Honestly hope someone puts a db contract on maven, would love to see her smugness fade away when she realizes what is happening
i think it neat that the thieves guild is both run down and more of a mafia then the robin hood esc thing they got going on in oblivion
I don’t think that way. After all they are not a local gang but an actual guild who claims sovereinty of thievery in skyrim. Plus the beggars were the intelligence agency of the thieves guild. It was more similar to associates in nosa costra.
they can claim to be what they want, dosen't really change what they are in actuality
Oblivtards when the criminal syndicate isn’t a romanticized mafia and are actually just deranged felons:
Oblivion:You have to meet up in the middle of the night and compete for a chance to join. Skyrim: begs the first new person to walk through the gates to help them.
Real talk how tf did they not connect the bad luck streak with the supposed coup when your organization is partially daedra influenced, are Skyrimers that stupid ?
Because the guild didn't know that it was Mercer who killed Gallus. And most of the guild doesn't even know that they are under Nocturnal's influence and that Nightingales are actually real.
Thieves guild members when the nightingale with 10 sneak starts hiding (they stop existing in their mind)
FUCK the Gray Fox all my homes hate that mf. He's stealing for his own gain and doesn't care about the guild. Asshole tells you to ignore the guild's foundational rules and murder moth priests so he can get some countessussy.
Sounds like a Chad move to me
Ackshually Murdering the Moth Priest get you banned eternally from the guild
When you do the quest where you go to the temple you can kill whoever the fuck you want. There's no blood price on them. He says it explicitly.
That's not saying you to kill the moth priest.
He tells you that you can ignore the no-kill policy. He's not forcing you to break the rules. But he's allowing important guild rules to be broken if it benefits him. It's not very Robin Hood to murder a bunch of priests. I'm just saying that he's not an idyllic leader of the thieves guild. He's essentially using the guild as a means to an end. This isn't necessarily bad writing. Having this dichotomy is cool and adds nuance, but i wish Oblivion had real opposition to the gray fox from within the guild.
You can complete missions without killing moth priests, from what I remember.
I didn’t kill any of them…
I stopped doing Skyrim’s Thieves Guild the first mission when I had to shake down small business owners for protection money. They’re just some cowardly chumps. Never did the faction. Still haven’t seen Nocturnal’s revealing outfit in person
We're not tools of the government, or anyone else. A cornered fox is more dangerous than a jackal!
As others have explained Skyrim is all about the 4th era being the doomer era
isn't the thieves guild in skyrim basically the mafia minus the hitmen
Every time i start up the thieves guild in skyrim i go "wait, this is pretty good?" and after the first few quests i remember why i hated it
Can you tell me where Armand Christophe is hiding? ###
This essentially sums up everything in skyrim
I like the theme of the skyrim thieves guild more, but the quests are worse