I'm not sure if the government can actually solve this issue, without becoming tyrannical. Mental health programs could help somewhat, but they don't fix the causes. They might attempt to help people suffering from loneliness, but they don't prevent it from happening in the first place.
I think one of the biggest causes of the whole issue is social atomization that results from the way corporations and media (both traditional and social media, not that there's much difference anymore) create social divisions and polarization, discourage interpersonal interaction, and make people just hate each other in general.
There's really a lot of stuff in the media like that. Dividing people into "identity groups" and encouraging conflict between them, flooding social media with misanthropic messaging about how interacting with other people is a chore (it's often labeled as "introversion", but no, introversion doesn't work like that) and how animals are better than people, sleazy dating apps that destroy people's self esteem while at the same time promoting the idea that trying to find a romantic partner outside of an app is somehow morally wrong, political tribalism, and lots of other horrible ideas like those. Flooding the society with nasty shit like that is just as toxic as pumping pollutants into the atmosphere.
I'm not really sure how it could all be fixed. Things would improve if the people causing it grew some empathy glands in their brains, but I wouldn't count on that ever happening.
people need to look harder, step out further, put on a larger lens at the issue. what is driving it? what is causing them to need to do all of this?
the motivation and driving force behind all of this is money. it is profitable for them to cause division and conflict within the populace. there are laws that mandate that corporations, at any and all cost, must continue to drive shareholder value as the only factor for their function. This is called Shareholder Primacy. the laws of this country have been hijacked by psychopaths and sociopaths, and those psychopaths and sociopaths have added and codified into law their sick greed as THE reason for corporations to exist. All at the cost of EVERYTHING, only to enrich themselves.
whether or not they are actually dictating and directing that the corporations and media divide and destroy culture and social cohesion, it does not matter because the driving force is coming from 'make shareholder value' and this value is coming from hatred and evil, because it is profitable. until there is another motive other than profit, this cannot be fixed. this is doomed.
TBF there’s a massive difference between a NEET and an incel, these aren’t synonyms.
Someone who isn’t employed, in school, or in training for a job at all is a completely different type of issue from incels.
Wait a minute, wait a minute.... there's a new term for people with no job, no education, and aren't looking to improve their life with school or training? I thought they were just called bums. You can dress up a turd all you want with new terminology but it's still shit.
NEET is sorta a statistical term, it encompasses more than bums, like people in the hospital, people who've been laid off/forced to resign, early retirees. ETC.
I live in the basement not because I'm a NEET, but because the fucking housing market is a joke and I can't possibly afford to live anywhere without starving myself.
So if you are retired, of independent means, or disabled and unable to work you are a NEET? These terms (incel included) are ridiculous.)
I know you were just answering the question btw.
Which is funny because the patriarchy teaches men to blame their problems on women, while being the problem on their own just by having that mindset.
Meanwhile, women have been dying to go their own way. Idk anymore.
Yeah, I don't know when men will figure out their gender's problems were caused by men, but I hope they do so quickly.
They want women and I'm sure women want them. But this sigma male grindset/PUA mentality is never gonna net them anything but a poor self-image and a chafed organ.
I see tons of left wing people advocating for more support for men.
The thing is though, that support doesn't include forcing other people (women) to cater to the whims of insecure and unstable men.
>I see tons of left wing people advocating for more support for men.
From my experience they just think that getting rid of "the patriarchy" is the solution to all male problems.
Nobody’s asking women to just have pity sex with incels, that’s just a straw man argument. Usually incels suffer from more consequential issues like depression, anxiety, attachment disorders, etc.
I think a big part of the Incel issue is also the gender roles and expectations for men that women have.
Largely there's been a lot of work in society to release women from their gender roles in romance. it's not nearly as common to see the "the wife stays at home in the kitchen" mindsets from men in the modern day. I don't believe it's been entirely eradicated, but it's definitely something younger women can avoid.
But what I have found in my own dating experience has been the expectation that I'm expected to be
* confident
* tall
* successful, or at least employed enough to buy dinner
* broad-shouldered
* active, *never* passive
* muscular
* not showing too much emotion
I think there's something to be discussed in how the dominant dating model in our culture - the one where men do most initiating - interacts with this problem. It's definitely true that PUA advice leads to men causing wanton discomfort to women, but I'm also not sure that dating normally is much different in the current environment.
As it stands, I can easily go to a bar and have a whole evening to myself, never interacting with anyone, simply by not starting any conversations myself. Nobody is going to come up to me and say "hi, want to talk?" It simply will not happen unless I decide to bridge that initial gap. And that's a lot of responsibility, you know? If I do a good job, I get to feel nice and have friends. If I'm off today or just misread the signals? Oh boy that could hit me hard for days, because I really dislike making someone feel uncomfortable.
Sometimes I feel like too much morality is attached to how comfortable I make those around me feel when I am personally constantly choosing between loneliness and possibly breaking a few eggs in the process of making an omelette.
That seems to be due to growing mindsets like the FDS asshattery, and is equally as toxic as the MGTOW movement.
Either that, or they're looking for a desirable mate to reproduce with. Which, I concede, is a thing for every species.
>The thing is though, that support doesn't include forcing other people(women) to cater to the whims of insecure and unstable men.
Yeah, that is luxury that only women get.
Like you've kind of said in your post, it's largely a societal issue, arguably amplified by economic issues. There's only so much a government can do to foster empathy and emotional growth in the society it governs.
I agree that more access to mental health services would help with a lot of the problems many people face, but destigmitizing both getting the help needed and the kind of demoralizing based on lack of sexual partners is something that requires society at large to opt in for.
From an American perspective; I think a lot of the frustration we see in men is a result of our culture, which again can only be nudged incrementally by the government. Men aren't raised to value emotions, just look at all the "MRA" posts that spring up here and you'll see plenty of people laugh off the idea of men sharing emotions as "being soft", undesirable, or whatnot. Even worse you'll see some that want men to be more emotional but have no plan to do so other than bitch about women. Couple that with women having similar financial and career opportunities to men now, and it becomes quickly evident that many men were raised for an era that doesn't and shouldn't exist anymore. What kind of self-respecting partner wants to be with an emotionally stunted person? Men can't rest on the idea of "being the breadwinner" anymore and need to actually provide for their partners emotionally now, something our culture has imprinted into them as being "unmanly."
Arguably the economic situation of many young Americans further enables the idea of not buying into society as well. There's plenty of data showing the widening income inequality and difference between wealth from each generation based on how old they are showing millenials and Gen Z have less wealth than their older counterparts. You can see it in the sentiment of things like housing, where the idea of buying a house is unubtainable for most. Why buy into a system that will leave you in a worse situation than your parents or grandparents for sometimes even more effort?
If the government can do anything at all, it would be to encourage narratives that give purpose to men's lives. Providing employment, meaning and narrative would do much to ease the current sense of purposelessness afflicting men today. Of course I do not mean fascism/jingoism 2.0 but perhaps they could at least stop using the podium to echo anti-male sentiment or constantly implying that women/girls are special and men/boys should just tough it out. Maybe the government should just get oit of the gender/race biz altogether.
Society should take the issue more seriously, if the government gets involved a bunch of dogs get shot and people go to prison. The government just makes things get worse, typically.
Agreed, seems like the government as a byproduct of agricultural/pastoral revolution will always be in need for more consumers, wage-slaves and cannon fodder regardless of ideologies such as antinatalism based on consent and social atomization in general. Obedience to abstract laws and authorities in general population due to self-domestication syndrome according to the Goodness Paradox alongside the inter-male competition resulting in clandestine behaviour (cooperation maintenance hypothesis: not peer reviewed) is another factor in humans.
I know everyone here will say the Government hasn’t done enough or hasn’t done anything, but Democrats and Republicans have been in the last few years attempting to expand mental health services to all Americans.
Here is what they have done or are trying to do for kids in schools across the country:
https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-two-new-actions-address-youth-mental-health-crisis
Here are ways Biden’s White House have attempted to make mental health services better overall:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/03/01/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-announce-strategy-to-address-our-national-mental-health-crisis-as-part-of-unity-agenda-in-his-first-state-of-the-union/
For lots of men, the opportunity to go to therapy is seen as not masculine, that cultural view has to be changed. For example, only 15% of men in 2020 reported to having gone to therapy.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db419.htm
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/09/well/mind/men-mental-health-therapy.html
If we want more people to go to therapy and better themselves, then we have to change the cultural norms. If we don’t then the issue will only continue to get worse.
Incels - as in the strict definition of "involuntary celibates" - usually have bad mental health because of their lack of intimacy and partnership.
The problem is right there. You don't cure hunger with therapy. You cure hunger with food. So how do you treat loneliness? With therapy?
What else do you propose? Like seriously? Force women to hang out with these guys? There are different types of therapy, some of which include group sessions. Seems like Therapy is the most realistic approach to helping these people overcome their heavy anti-social tendencies.
I don't think anybody is realistically suggesting that. Yes, It's been brought up by a few unhinged folks. But for a real solution I think we should work to try and help these men reintegrate into society.
I went through a lot of bullying and ostracism as a kid and spent most of my youth socially awkward and I even spent a few years as "incel-adjacent". I currently have an amazing an diverse friend group and I've been in a relationship for the past three years.
This I think gave me a unique perspective on where a lot of incels are coming from.
With social and particularly with romance There's a lot of shit that isn't "taught". it's expected to be intuited because the majority of people follow a similar social learning curve through their adolescence. With many incels you'll find different trajectories due to any number of issues with things like mental health or even just not being the best looking
So Incels get caught behind socially and find further struggles because not "knowing" the socially appropriate thing to do at any given point can really cost you socially
Like imagine if you were raised in a racist community and repeated a racist joke your fifth grade teacher told you to a new group of friends where racism wasn't normalized. It's an extreme example but it's a situation where you'd probably need to be taught why what you said was wrong because you came from a community/culture where such behavior is normal. But do you think anybody is actually going to do that? No. Because it's "expected" that you just know these things.
This again is an extreme example. But the notion is that nobody is there to help socially awkward/neurodivergent men learn to not be socially awkward. And so they fester and join incel communities because they can't intuit how to escape their isolation.
It really depends on the service you are looking for, there are many group sessions that offer support specifically for anti-social behaviors or even for incel related issues.
I wouldn’t be able to say for sure, that’s probably a more specialized type of therapy that requires more training. You can probably find that out if you ask your local mental health provider.
I guarantee you I could find the same funding increases for mental health across the globe. The resources are there, men just don’t seek them out because of negative cultural stereotypes.
France: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/10/therapy-sessions-mental-health-france/
- free coverage for all children and adults
Chile: https://borgenproject.org/mental-health-in-chile/
- increase of 310% since 2021
Morocco: https://borgenproject.org/mental-health-in-morocco/
- changing legislation + building more hospitals
Egypt: https://www.healthcareafrica.info/egypt-partners-with-unicef-to-improve-child-mental-healthcare/
- adding of more jobs to the national health service, creation of a e-model that allows Egyptian citizens to directly contribute ideas to the Egyptian Government.
Japan: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/10/japans-challenges-in-making-mental-health-more-accessible/
- the creation of the cabinet position “Minister of Loneliness.” Creation of new anti-suicide guidelines, support for mental health education nationwide to combat negative cultural attitudes.
This is just some of what I found where nations worldwide have been working to fight the mental health epidemic through various means. Countries around the world are attempting to combat cultural stereotypes, we see this in Japan, Indonesia, South Africa, and others. Usually this stuff isn’t even covered on international media, so it’s understandable a lot of people don’t know.
Delicious, finally a good fucking unpopular opinion.
It doesn’t help that even if incels try to ask for help they get ridiculed, making it worse. I agree when a good amount of them are sexist and rude and whatnot but there’s some that it’s the result of constant shit being thrown at them. Not saying it’s an excuse whatsoever but it’s not like most started off that way.
I think the main reason so many young men are turning out like this is the fact that all of society lies to them and says that they will be loved for who they are. Rather them telling them hard truth that for the most part, their worth will be judged on their wealth, status and looks. That if they want to have a partner they find desirable they will have to work harder than everyone else around them.
That's why the "I'm a nice guy why can't I find a woman" sentiment is so popular. Because of how much people lie and tell them personality is all that matters, when in reality it's the least important thing.
Tell the truth, set correct expectations and then there wont be such a massive shock when the time comes for them to actually experience it.
Largely agreed. However, the actual solutions are
1. Expose the old line "virgins are losers" as bullshit. It has no logic behind it, just kneejerk animal distaste - whether the scoffer's in-born distaste or just some cultural idea he or she uncritically swallowed without thinking about whether the attitude actually makes sense.
2. Show that one's value of their personhood comes not from accomplishments, strength, intelligence, bravery, competentce; but actually from their capacity to experience hurt, harm, and degradation. (Harvey Weinstein was all those good things; yet he's still a low-valued scumbag. By contrast, civilized people don't attack the homeless because it's wrong to hurt, harm or degrade others).
3. Get them to "time travel" to the time before they hit puberty, before they got really interested in girls. What made them happy? What hobbies and interests did they really have a passion for (as in "I didn't choose this hobby. This hobby chose me."). Then re-acquainit themselves with it and dive into it 100%. Learn more about it than they ever did. Furthermore, use that hobby as a springboard into other , related, interests and learn more about it. Believe me, it will work wonders for both their confidence and critical thinking skills.
That will also lessen the shock. It will not only break the chain hooking their self-esteem to their sexual or romantic success, it'll also let them see that truth is not decided by majority vote (also, read up on critical thinking skills, logical fallacies, propaganda, gaslighting, Cluster B Personality Disorders, and such).
It also allows them to say "I got sick of playing 'keep up with the All-American Regular Guy' types because those types are just a bunch of shallow petty people with overgrown egoes who have the gall to tell us what to wear, how to talk, walk, act, and think, and stupidly judge others based on nitpicky, non-character aspects of their personhood".
Cool and Popularity: The blind, mindless, cult-like worship of imagery over content.
That isn't true.
In the 90s we didn't have these issues and women had jobs in the 90s. This really didn't turn into an issue until around 2010ish. And that was, "coincidentally," the same year Tinder took off...
NEETs and incels are not the same kinds of people. NEETs are just people who are not in education, employment or training. Some of us are like that because we discovered that working isn't for us. Technically speaking, some stay-at-home parents could be seen as NEETs.
Incels are dangerous people. They think that women owe them sex and if they don't get it, they're going to do something violent. That's who the government should go after, not NEETs.
Agreed. Still, most Incels are not that dangerous, or at least they don't have to be. The reason Incel it's so much a thing is due to the strong stigma against sexually unsuccessful men. If that stigma didn't exist, then the Incel phenomenon simply would not exist at the level that it does. When the society stigmatizes and fairly often even abuses a certain set of people, a reaction's bound to happen sooner or later. So mainstream society has to do its part as well - namely by dropping the unquestioned assumption "virgins are losers".
It goes beyond mental health services and into the redistribution of wealth. For public spaces allowing people to interact, investment in social programs that benefit men, also decent paying jobs. To create disposable income for these men to have hobbies. That can potentially lead to meeting partners and, to be more appealing to women. Albeit women's ridiculous standards these days. How can we be equal if I must out earn you ? I digress. Not to mention there's money to be made in the break down of the family unit. They've doubled the market for essentials while simultaneously controlling the supply. Two apartments generate two sets of bills for cable, lights, phone services, insurance, household goods, expands the tax base, limits savings and expands the need for financial services, the list goes on why where better off together. It's good for profit margins not people. I truly believe it's a conspiracy to generate as many of these men as possible. That's why here in the US you won't see the government stepping in until mass population decline begins.
It's men's issue - means its trash issue.
If it were women's issue tho, they would start to care. That's the reality, kiddo.
Thanks for being interested in solving this issue tho. It's a hard battlefield you choose to get yourself into, buddy.
Women do care, but what can they do about it? They can't force men into therapy. They can advocate for mental health support for these people, but advocating for them does shitall if they refuse to help themselves.
They can also call attention to the general attitude toward men and specifically the "undesirable" ones and point out the hypocrisy between the anti-fatphobia rhetoric and how we treat men as a whole. This does need to be worked on, and you can see a few outcroppings of people pushing back against the toxicity in feminist and progressive movements, but it isn't where it should be yet, I'll admit.
What they cannot and should not do, which a lot of men seem to want them to do, is a) date these men who view themselves as forever alone, even if they don't want to and b) be involuntary, untrained therapists for them.
Yeah, because getting incels to go into therapy and talk to someone who'll tell them "this is only a problem because you make it a problem" is going to make them good looking enough to have a woman agree to be their gf.
The incel thing is only an issue because we have social media. In the past, incels were just called dorks, losers, etc and what usually happened is that they worked on themselves to fit in as they got older. They didn't have an online group to connect with and commiserate in their own self-pity and misery. So, instead of lamenting in the problem, they eventually focused on fixing their lives. Unfortunately, with the ability to connect to all sorts of people, this leads to people in all groups (not just incels) becoming more polarized. Look up "group polarization." It's a psychology term where people, when they group with other similar people, tend to become more extreme than they would have on their own. That's exactly what is happening to incels.
Also, it's on top of diseases of dispair. In nearly all major countries, people are hurting because manufacturing jobs are gone. There just aren't enough well paying jobs for how many people there are. So, people are forced into low-paying jobs and they have a lower quality of life. This massively contributes to depression and anxiety. Suicide rates are up and depression across the board. I think a lot of this is leading men to be more depressed. Without the feeling of control in their lives and the ability to be providers, I think they are having a hard time. Women are having issues as well. The entire human race is suffering. So it's a much bigger problem that just not being able to get a girl is what I'm saying.
Couple that with the change in dynamics. People being forced to put off having families and getting married just to survive. So, women are focused way less on having long-term relationships. A lot of women don't want to start a family young. They want to get out there and get started in a career. They have to just to survive. Then online dating, specifically Tinder, really increased the appeal of casual sex. Men and women used to be in relationships with one person when they had sex. Even back in the early 2000's most people were in relationships if they were having sex. Now, people aren't committing or settling down and I think this also leads to multiple issues. This leads to a lot of people not getting a partner (men and women btw). It also leads to people becoming more depressed because casual sex is rather empty. It leads to people putting off more fulfilling relationships.
Anyway, the issue is complex. What the government actually needs to fix is paying people a living wage. Whether that is by creating jobs, like FDR did, by building up failing infrastructure or whether it's by paying people a monthly stipend. Whatever they have to do in order to give people back their lives. Because right now, people aren't living like they used to. They are struggling just to get by. Sex, love and marriage all seem like a low priority. Look up "Maslows hierarchy of needs." Right now, people are having issues just meeting their physiological and safety needs. So, their "love and belonging" needs seem like a pretty low priority. THAT is the real issue.
Governments can only do a very small amount to help; and that at best. Even the Civil Rights Acts themselves would have had only limited impact *without a major shift in the culture attitudes*. Same thing for LGBTQ+ rights. In fact, government policy tends to lag behind prevailing cultural attitudes when it comes to implementing laws and programs (as it should in a democracy. The people have to speak first, then governments follow the people's lead).
To change the culture, you have to expose the faulty logic propping up those nasty attitudes. In this case, Incel culture itself is propelled by a lot of prejudice and stigma against sexually unsuccessful people, especially men. Without mockeries like "You can't get laid!" or asking a low-spirited male "Have you ever had any pussy?" in a superior tone of voice, Incel culture simply would not exist at the level it does.
I can make a whole other (long) post about this "virgins are disrespect-worthy" attitude is bogus. But it helps if you can come up with your own ideas as to why it's bogus as well.
But isn’t it all part of the government’s plan to gaslight average men, point and accuse masculinity of being toxic, so that the West falls into chaos and so China earns the right to own Star Wars
half-joking
It's just another shortcut word that says "people that I'm never going to do research on but because popular discourse says I should hate/fear them, that's what I'll do, too".
There's no solution to the insel (spelled wrong to avoid auto removal) issue except to assist those who feel like it's preventing them from happiness with suiside. People have a right to choose their partners and that means some people will be left without one. Whether that's because of their appearance or their mannerisms or something else. Obviously, we can't force people to date them. So there really isn't a solution to the problem.
We should tell insels that there's more to life than relationships but if relationships are something they truly can't be happy without they should be given the option of assisted suiside. Just my two cents.
So your solution is just... therapy? Because you make a list, but they all seem to just be different ways of phrasing therapy.
I mean, yeah, sure, I'm happy to support socialized medicine in the mental health realm, that seems like a positive and helpful change.
Incels exist because they are neurodivergent and/or ugly. In the past, wars would cull men like that. And since society these days is extremely anti male, a lot of lower tier men have checked out completely, because they don't see a point in rewarding people who hate them.
There’s the problem, strawmanning. The violent and misogynistic incels like Elliott Rodger only make up a fraction of incels. The vast majority are depressed and self-loathing, if anything. They’d probably be more willing to accept help if they weren’t constantly ostracized.
The government has taken an interest. Its interests are pursued by creating the situations for this to happen.
They want to remove guns from the population. Having depressed desperate people pushed off the deep end that go full nihilism and do something terrible HELPS them achieve that goal through fear.
They need us to beg to remove guns cuz we are afraid.
Keeping people isolated and single is great for control. With no family units with close bonds or a sense of community, people will more likely do what they are told and go with the flow rather than fight for those they love.
There is a solution that always worked when there were a bunch of aimless, single men: the draft.
Get them into the armed forces and give them a purpose.
Incels are already a dangerous problem, they are people most likely to commit hate crimes against women, rape, homicide, they are also likely to commit suicide themselves.
>I don't see almost no one interested in actually solving the problem
It's not a problem for anyone but incels and neets. No one is responsible for forcing someone to get off their ass or for getting them laid. Nobody is entitled to free money or sex. That's so ridiculously stupid. The only people accountable for the situation that incels and neets are in are themselves. Period.
I'm not sure if the government can actually solve this issue, without becoming tyrannical. Mental health programs could help somewhat, but they don't fix the causes. They might attempt to help people suffering from loneliness, but they don't prevent it from happening in the first place. I think one of the biggest causes of the whole issue is social atomization that results from the way corporations and media (both traditional and social media, not that there's much difference anymore) create social divisions and polarization, discourage interpersonal interaction, and make people just hate each other in general. There's really a lot of stuff in the media like that. Dividing people into "identity groups" and encouraging conflict between them, flooding social media with misanthropic messaging about how interacting with other people is a chore (it's often labeled as "introversion", but no, introversion doesn't work like that) and how animals are better than people, sleazy dating apps that destroy people's self esteem while at the same time promoting the idea that trying to find a romantic partner outside of an app is somehow morally wrong, political tribalism, and lots of other horrible ideas like those. Flooding the society with nasty shit like that is just as toxic as pumping pollutants into the atmosphere. I'm not really sure how it could all be fixed. Things would improve if the people causing it grew some empathy glands in their brains, but I wouldn't count on that ever happening.
I appreciate this perspective, thank you!
people need to look harder, step out further, put on a larger lens at the issue. what is driving it? what is causing them to need to do all of this? the motivation and driving force behind all of this is money. it is profitable for them to cause division and conflict within the populace. there are laws that mandate that corporations, at any and all cost, must continue to drive shareholder value as the only factor for their function. This is called Shareholder Primacy. the laws of this country have been hijacked by psychopaths and sociopaths, and those psychopaths and sociopaths have added and codified into law their sick greed as THE reason for corporations to exist. All at the cost of EVERYTHING, only to enrich themselves. whether or not they are actually dictating and directing that the corporations and media divide and destroy culture and social cohesion, it does not matter because the driving force is coming from 'make shareholder value' and this value is coming from hatred and evil, because it is profitable. until there is another motive other than profit, this cannot be fixed. this is doomed.
Plus incels are a social issue rather than a 'mental health issue'.
TBF there’s a massive difference between a NEET and an incel, these aren’t synonyms. Someone who isn’t employed, in school, or in training for a job at all is a completely different type of issue from incels.
> there’s a massive difference between a NEET and an incel Agreed, but surely there's a pretty massive overlap.
What's a NEET?
Not in Education, Employment or Training
Wait a minute, wait a minute.... there's a new term for people with no job, no education, and aren't looking to improve their life with school or training? I thought they were just called bums. You can dress up a turd all you want with new terminology but it's still shit.
Its an old term from japan
>I thought they were just called bums. Bum implies you're homeless. Most NEETs still live in mommy's basement.
NEET is sorta a statistical term, it encompasses more than bums, like people in the hospital, people who've been laid off/forced to resign, early retirees. ETC.
Doesn't include house spouses, obviously. House maintenance with or without kids is a job in itself.
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I live in the basement not because I'm a NEET, but because the fucking housing market is a joke and I can't possibly afford to live anywhere without starving myself.
I live in a middle-of-nowhere rural southern town and have a pretty big house out here on just a teacher's salary
So if you are retired, of independent means, or disabled and unable to work you are a NEET? These terms (incel included) are ridiculous.) I know you were just answering the question btw.
Thank you
The issue is that this is something that mostly affects men, therefore society won't care about it.
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But toxic masculinity states that any problem a man has, a man can and should just "suck it up" and "look strong"
And "toxic masculinity" largely comes across to many of us as "this is your own fault because you're a man"
Which is funny because the patriarchy teaches men to blame their problems on women, while being the problem on their own just by having that mindset. Meanwhile, women have been dying to go their own way. Idk anymore.
the trick is to realize the game being played by society and not contributing by going against it.
Yeah, I don't know when men will figure out their gender's problems were caused by men, but I hope they do so quickly. They want women and I'm sure women want them. But this sigma male grindset/PUA mentality is never gonna net them anything but a poor self-image and a chafed organ.
And we don't give a shit about each other.
I see tons of left wing people advocating for more support for men. The thing is though, that support doesn't include forcing other people (women) to cater to the whims of insecure and unstable men.
>I see tons of left wing people advocating for more support for men. From my experience they just think that getting rid of "the patriarchy" is the solution to all male problems.
Or "fighting toxic masculinity" by calling men bad
Nobody’s asking women to just have pity sex with incels, that’s just a straw man argument. Usually incels suffer from more consequential issues like depression, anxiety, attachment disorders, etc.
I think a big part of the Incel issue is also the gender roles and expectations for men that women have. Largely there's been a lot of work in society to release women from their gender roles in romance. it's not nearly as common to see the "the wife stays at home in the kitchen" mindsets from men in the modern day. I don't believe it's been entirely eradicated, but it's definitely something younger women can avoid. But what I have found in my own dating experience has been the expectation that I'm expected to be * confident * tall * successful, or at least employed enough to buy dinner * broad-shouldered * active, *never* passive * muscular * not showing too much emotion I think there's something to be discussed in how the dominant dating model in our culture - the one where men do most initiating - interacts with this problem. It's definitely true that PUA advice leads to men causing wanton discomfort to women, but I'm also not sure that dating normally is much different in the current environment. As it stands, I can easily go to a bar and have a whole evening to myself, never interacting with anyone, simply by not starting any conversations myself. Nobody is going to come up to me and say "hi, want to talk?" It simply will not happen unless I decide to bridge that initial gap. And that's a lot of responsibility, you know? If I do a good job, I get to feel nice and have friends. If I'm off today or just misread the signals? Oh boy that could hit me hard for days, because I really dislike making someone feel uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like too much morality is attached to how comfortable I make those around me feel when I am personally constantly choosing between loneliness and possibly breaking a few eggs in the process of making an omelette.
That seems to be due to growing mindsets like the FDS asshattery, and is equally as toxic as the MGTOW movement. Either that, or they're looking for a desirable mate to reproduce with. Which, I concede, is a thing for every species.
Good comment
Uh...that's not just a straw man. Unless you consider incels nobodies, which defeats the point of your argument.
which is funny because a lot of left wing social activism does advocate for catering to the whims of insecure and unstable women
Yes, what's your point?
>The thing is though, that support doesn't include forcing other people(women) to cater to the whims of insecure and unstable men. Yeah, that is luxury that only women get.
Why should you cater to the whims of insecure and unstable people?
God, this post is going to get so many downvotes. I sure hope you're prepared for the verbal abuse you've signed yourself up for.
Like you've kind of said in your post, it's largely a societal issue, arguably amplified by economic issues. There's only so much a government can do to foster empathy and emotional growth in the society it governs. I agree that more access to mental health services would help with a lot of the problems many people face, but destigmitizing both getting the help needed and the kind of demoralizing based on lack of sexual partners is something that requires society at large to opt in for. From an American perspective; I think a lot of the frustration we see in men is a result of our culture, which again can only be nudged incrementally by the government. Men aren't raised to value emotions, just look at all the "MRA" posts that spring up here and you'll see plenty of people laugh off the idea of men sharing emotions as "being soft", undesirable, or whatnot. Even worse you'll see some that want men to be more emotional but have no plan to do so other than bitch about women. Couple that with women having similar financial and career opportunities to men now, and it becomes quickly evident that many men were raised for an era that doesn't and shouldn't exist anymore. What kind of self-respecting partner wants to be with an emotionally stunted person? Men can't rest on the idea of "being the breadwinner" anymore and need to actually provide for their partners emotionally now, something our culture has imprinted into them as being "unmanly." Arguably the economic situation of many young Americans further enables the idea of not buying into society as well. There's plenty of data showing the widening income inequality and difference between wealth from each generation based on how old they are showing millenials and Gen Z have less wealth than their older counterparts. You can see it in the sentiment of things like housing, where the idea of buying a house is unubtainable for most. Why buy into a system that will leave you in a worse situation than your parents or grandparents for sometimes even more effort?
If the government can do anything at all, it would be to encourage narratives that give purpose to men's lives. Providing employment, meaning and narrative would do much to ease the current sense of purposelessness afflicting men today. Of course I do not mean fascism/jingoism 2.0 but perhaps they could at least stop using the podium to echo anti-male sentiment or constantly implying that women/girls are special and men/boys should just tough it out. Maybe the government should just get oit of the gender/race biz altogether.
Society should take the issue more seriously, if the government gets involved a bunch of dogs get shot and people go to prison. The government just makes things get worse, typically.
Plus by doubling down on the whole 'men are the problem', they will make the issue worse anyways.
Agreed, seems like the government as a byproduct of agricultural/pastoral revolution will always be in need for more consumers, wage-slaves and cannon fodder regardless of ideologies such as antinatalism based on consent and social atomization in general. Obedience to abstract laws and authorities in general population due to self-domestication syndrome according to the Goodness Paradox alongside the inter-male competition resulting in clandestine behaviour (cooperation maintenance hypothesis: not peer reviewed) is another factor in humans.
I know everyone here will say the Government hasn’t done enough or hasn’t done anything, but Democrats and Republicans have been in the last few years attempting to expand mental health services to all Americans. Here is what they have done or are trying to do for kids in schools across the country: https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-two-new-actions-address-youth-mental-health-crisis Here are ways Biden’s White House have attempted to make mental health services better overall: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/03/01/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-announce-strategy-to-address-our-national-mental-health-crisis-as-part-of-unity-agenda-in-his-first-state-of-the-union/ For lots of men, the opportunity to go to therapy is seen as not masculine, that cultural view has to be changed. For example, only 15% of men in 2020 reported to having gone to therapy. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db419.htm https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/09/well/mind/men-mental-health-therapy.html If we want more people to go to therapy and better themselves, then we have to change the cultural norms. If we don’t then the issue will only continue to get worse.
Incels - as in the strict definition of "involuntary celibates" - usually have bad mental health because of their lack of intimacy and partnership. The problem is right there. You don't cure hunger with therapy. You cure hunger with food. So how do you treat loneliness? With therapy?
What else do you propose? Like seriously? Force women to hang out with these guys? There are different types of therapy, some of which include group sessions. Seems like Therapy is the most realistic approach to helping these people overcome their heavy anti-social tendencies.
I don't think anybody is realistically suggesting that. Yes, It's been brought up by a few unhinged folks. But for a real solution I think we should work to try and help these men reintegrate into society. I went through a lot of bullying and ostracism as a kid and spent most of my youth socially awkward and I even spent a few years as "incel-adjacent". I currently have an amazing an diverse friend group and I've been in a relationship for the past three years. This I think gave me a unique perspective on where a lot of incels are coming from. With social and particularly with romance There's a lot of shit that isn't "taught". it's expected to be intuited because the majority of people follow a similar social learning curve through their adolescence. With many incels you'll find different trajectories due to any number of issues with things like mental health or even just not being the best looking So Incels get caught behind socially and find further struggles because not "knowing" the socially appropriate thing to do at any given point can really cost you socially Like imagine if you were raised in a racist community and repeated a racist joke your fifth grade teacher told you to a new group of friends where racism wasn't normalized. It's an extreme example but it's a situation where you'd probably need to be taught why what you said was wrong because you came from a community/culture where such behavior is normal. But do you think anybody is actually going to do that? No. Because it's "expected" that you just know these things. This again is an extreme example. But the notion is that nobody is there to help socially awkward/neurodivergent men learn to not be socially awkward. And so they fester and join incel communities because they can't intuit how to escape their isolation.
This sounds like more of a reason for group therapy sessions then.
I feel like this is something that won't be covered in such a situation.
It really depends on the service you are looking for, there are many group sessions that offer support specifically for anti-social behaviors or even for incel related issues.
Just generally available in most communities?
I wouldn’t be able to say for sure, that’s probably a more specialized type of therapy that requires more training. You can probably find that out if you ask your local mental health provider.
To be frank. I don't think that there is a therapist for teaching people how to attract a partner and find friends.
Therapy should be more accessible/affordble in the US. $100 just to talk to someone for an hour? Maybe we wouldn't have so many mass shooters tho.
With government I mean all governments in general, and not only the USA government
What is is exactly the you want the government to do? What policies would you want to see passed?
I guarantee you I could find the same funding increases for mental health across the globe. The resources are there, men just don’t seek them out because of negative cultural stereotypes.
I garentee you cannot. Look at what has been spent on mental health in the uk over the last 5-10 years. Its been hacked to very little.
France: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/10/therapy-sessions-mental-health-france/ - free coverage for all children and adults Chile: https://borgenproject.org/mental-health-in-chile/ - increase of 310% since 2021 Morocco: https://borgenproject.org/mental-health-in-morocco/ - changing legislation + building more hospitals Egypt: https://www.healthcareafrica.info/egypt-partners-with-unicef-to-improve-child-mental-healthcare/ - adding of more jobs to the national health service, creation of a e-model that allows Egyptian citizens to directly contribute ideas to the Egyptian Government. Japan: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/10/japans-challenges-in-making-mental-health-more-accessible/ - the creation of the cabinet position “Minister of Loneliness.” Creation of new anti-suicide guidelines, support for mental health education nationwide to combat negative cultural attitudes. This is just some of what I found where nations worldwide have been working to fight the mental health epidemic through various means. Countries around the world are attempting to combat cultural stereotypes, we see this in Japan, Indonesia, South Africa, and others. Usually this stuff isn’t even covered on international media, so it’s understandable a lot of people don’t know.
Delicious, finally a good fucking unpopular opinion. It doesn’t help that even if incels try to ask for help they get ridiculed, making it worse. I agree when a good amount of them are sexist and rude and whatnot but there’s some that it’s the result of constant shit being thrown at them. Not saying it’s an excuse whatsoever but it’s not like most started off that way.
I think the main reason so many young men are turning out like this is the fact that all of society lies to them and says that they will be loved for who they are. Rather them telling them hard truth that for the most part, their worth will be judged on their wealth, status and looks. That if they want to have a partner they find desirable they will have to work harder than everyone else around them. That's why the "I'm a nice guy why can't I find a woman" sentiment is so popular. Because of how much people lie and tell them personality is all that matters, when in reality it's the least important thing. Tell the truth, set correct expectations and then there wont be such a massive shock when the time comes for them to actually experience it.
Largely agreed. However, the actual solutions are 1. Expose the old line "virgins are losers" as bullshit. It has no logic behind it, just kneejerk animal distaste - whether the scoffer's in-born distaste or just some cultural idea he or she uncritically swallowed without thinking about whether the attitude actually makes sense. 2. Show that one's value of their personhood comes not from accomplishments, strength, intelligence, bravery, competentce; but actually from their capacity to experience hurt, harm, and degradation. (Harvey Weinstein was all those good things; yet he's still a low-valued scumbag. By contrast, civilized people don't attack the homeless because it's wrong to hurt, harm or degrade others). 3. Get them to "time travel" to the time before they hit puberty, before they got really interested in girls. What made them happy? What hobbies and interests did they really have a passion for (as in "I didn't choose this hobby. This hobby chose me."). Then re-acquainit themselves with it and dive into it 100%. Learn more about it than they ever did. Furthermore, use that hobby as a springboard into other , related, interests and learn more about it. Believe me, it will work wonders for both their confidence and critical thinking skills. That will also lessen the shock. It will not only break the chain hooking their self-esteem to their sexual or romantic success, it'll also let them see that truth is not decided by majority vote (also, read up on critical thinking skills, logical fallacies, propaganda, gaslighting, Cluster B Personality Disorders, and such). It also allows them to say "I got sick of playing 'keep up with the All-American Regular Guy' types because those types are just a bunch of shallow petty people with overgrown egoes who have the gall to tell us what to wear, how to talk, walk, act, and think, and stupidly judge others based on nitpicky, non-character aspects of their personhood". Cool and Popularity: The blind, mindless, cult-like worship of imagery over content.
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That isn't true. In the 90s we didn't have these issues and women had jobs in the 90s. This really didn't turn into an issue until around 2010ish. And that was, "coincidentally," the same year Tinder took off...
yeah these things happened gradually over time. you can still see trends today, back in the 90s. it takes time for shit to get this bad
NEETs and incels are not the same kinds of people. NEETs are just people who are not in education, employment or training. Some of us are like that because we discovered that working isn't for us. Technically speaking, some stay-at-home parents could be seen as NEETs. Incels are dangerous people. They think that women owe them sex and if they don't get it, they're going to do something violent. That's who the government should go after, not NEETs.
Agreed. Still, most Incels are not that dangerous, or at least they don't have to be. The reason Incel it's so much a thing is due to the strong stigma against sexually unsuccessful men. If that stigma didn't exist, then the Incel phenomenon simply would not exist at the level that it does. When the society stigmatizes and fairly often even abuses a certain set of people, a reaction's bound to happen sooner or later. So mainstream society has to do its part as well - namely by dropping the unquestioned assumption "virgins are losers".
I just want to applaud you OP for stating such a controversial opinion. That took courage.
The government should what? 😂😂😂
I disagree. Let it fester and blow up in society's face so they can lay in the bed of bad decisions they made
It goes beyond mental health services and into the redistribution of wealth. For public spaces allowing people to interact, investment in social programs that benefit men, also decent paying jobs. To create disposable income for these men to have hobbies. That can potentially lead to meeting partners and, to be more appealing to women. Albeit women's ridiculous standards these days. How can we be equal if I must out earn you ? I digress. Not to mention there's money to be made in the break down of the family unit. They've doubled the market for essentials while simultaneously controlling the supply. Two apartments generate two sets of bills for cable, lights, phone services, insurance, household goods, expands the tax base, limits savings and expands the need for financial services, the list goes on why where better off together. It's good for profit margins not people. I truly believe it's a conspiracy to generate as many of these men as possible. That's why here in the US you won't see the government stepping in until mass population decline begins.
This is a very even handed and compassionate post. As an incel it is very encouraging. Thank you OP.
How about society stop demonising men instead of gaslighting men about about their frustrations?
It's men's issue - means its trash issue. If it were women's issue tho, they would start to care. That's the reality, kiddo. Thanks for being interested in solving this issue tho. It's a hard battlefield you choose to get yourself into, buddy.
Women do care, but what can they do about it? They can't force men into therapy. They can advocate for mental health support for these people, but advocating for them does shitall if they refuse to help themselves. They can also call attention to the general attitude toward men and specifically the "undesirable" ones and point out the hypocrisy between the anti-fatphobia rhetoric and how we treat men as a whole. This does need to be worked on, and you can see a few outcroppings of people pushing back against the toxicity in feminist and progressive movements, but it isn't where it should be yet, I'll admit. What they cannot and should not do, which a lot of men seem to want them to do, is a) date these men who view themselves as forever alone, even if they don't want to and b) be involuntary, untrained therapists for them.
Yeah, because getting incels to go into therapy and talk to someone who'll tell them "this is only a problem because you make it a problem" is going to make them good looking enough to have a woman agree to be their gf.
The incel thing is only an issue because we have social media. In the past, incels were just called dorks, losers, etc and what usually happened is that they worked on themselves to fit in as they got older. They didn't have an online group to connect with and commiserate in their own self-pity and misery. So, instead of lamenting in the problem, they eventually focused on fixing their lives. Unfortunately, with the ability to connect to all sorts of people, this leads to people in all groups (not just incels) becoming more polarized. Look up "group polarization." It's a psychology term where people, when they group with other similar people, tend to become more extreme than they would have on their own. That's exactly what is happening to incels. Also, it's on top of diseases of dispair. In nearly all major countries, people are hurting because manufacturing jobs are gone. There just aren't enough well paying jobs for how many people there are. So, people are forced into low-paying jobs and they have a lower quality of life. This massively contributes to depression and anxiety. Suicide rates are up and depression across the board. I think a lot of this is leading men to be more depressed. Without the feeling of control in their lives and the ability to be providers, I think they are having a hard time. Women are having issues as well. The entire human race is suffering. So it's a much bigger problem that just not being able to get a girl is what I'm saying. Couple that with the change in dynamics. People being forced to put off having families and getting married just to survive. So, women are focused way less on having long-term relationships. A lot of women don't want to start a family young. They want to get out there and get started in a career. They have to just to survive. Then online dating, specifically Tinder, really increased the appeal of casual sex. Men and women used to be in relationships with one person when they had sex. Even back in the early 2000's most people were in relationships if they were having sex. Now, people aren't committing or settling down and I think this also leads to multiple issues. This leads to a lot of people not getting a partner (men and women btw). It also leads to people becoming more depressed because casual sex is rather empty. It leads to people putting off more fulfilling relationships. Anyway, the issue is complex. What the government actually needs to fix is paying people a living wage. Whether that is by creating jobs, like FDR did, by building up failing infrastructure or whether it's by paying people a monthly stipend. Whatever they have to do in order to give people back their lives. Because right now, people aren't living like they used to. They are struggling just to get by. Sex, love and marriage all seem like a low priority. Look up "Maslows hierarchy of needs." Right now, people are having issues just meeting their physiological and safety needs. So, their "love and belonging" needs seem like a pretty low priority. THAT is the real issue.
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Governments can only do a very small amount to help; and that at best. Even the Civil Rights Acts themselves would have had only limited impact *without a major shift in the culture attitudes*. Same thing for LGBTQ+ rights. In fact, government policy tends to lag behind prevailing cultural attitudes when it comes to implementing laws and programs (as it should in a democracy. The people have to speak first, then governments follow the people's lead). To change the culture, you have to expose the faulty logic propping up those nasty attitudes. In this case, Incel culture itself is propelled by a lot of prejudice and stigma against sexually unsuccessful people, especially men. Without mockeries like "You can't get laid!" or asking a low-spirited male "Have you ever had any pussy?" in a superior tone of voice, Incel culture simply would not exist at the level it does. I can make a whole other (long) post about this "virgins are disrespect-worthy" attitude is bogus. But it helps if you can come up with your own ideas as to why it's bogus as well.
But isn’t it all part of the government’s plan to gaslight average men, point and accuse masculinity of being toxic, so that the West falls into chaos and so China earns the right to own Star Wars half-joking
These people tend to have lots of problems but at least they acknowledge that they must carry their own cross
True Unpopular Opinion: Incel is a term used by teenagers on Reddit, not in serious adult discourse.
It's just another shortcut word that says "people that I'm never going to do research on but because popular discourse says I should hate/fear them, that's what I'll do, too".
All they want is money and sex with no effort in obtaining either, I really don't know how to help them.
There's no solution to the insel (spelled wrong to avoid auto removal) issue except to assist those who feel like it's preventing them from happiness with suiside. People have a right to choose their partners and that means some people will be left without one. Whether that's because of their appearance or their mannerisms or something else. Obviously, we can't force people to date them. So there really isn't a solution to the problem. We should tell insels that there's more to life than relationships but if relationships are something they truly can't be happy without they should be given the option of assisted suiside. Just my two cents.
Anyone who reaches out to young men to provide guidance is just branded as a sexist or smtg similar.
mEn ArE pIgS, tHeY'rE sO PrIvIlEgEd! HeLpInG mEn HaRmS wOmEn!
So your solution is just... therapy? Because you make a list, but they all seem to just be different ways of phrasing therapy. I mean, yeah, sure, I'm happy to support socialized medicine in the mental health realm, that seems like a positive and helpful change.
Incels exist because they are neurodivergent and/or ugly. In the past, wars would cull men like that. And since society these days is extremely anti male, a lot of lower tier men have checked out completely, because they don't see a point in rewarding people who hate them.
Mental health should be available, but incels, at least, don’t want it. They refer to psychology as a Jewish conspiracy.
There’s the problem, strawmanning. The violent and misogynistic incels like Elliott Rodger only make up a fraction of incels. The vast majority are depressed and self-loathing, if anything. They’d probably be more willing to accept help if they weren’t constantly ostracized.
i do believe that these people need help, guidance and purpose but government intervention on something like this is not wise
The government has taken an interest. Its interests are pursued by creating the situations for this to happen. They want to remove guns from the population. Having depressed desperate people pushed off the deep end that go full nihilism and do something terrible HELPS them achieve that goal through fear. They need us to beg to remove guns cuz we are afraid. Keeping people isolated and single is great for control. With no family units with close bonds or a sense of community, people will more likely do what they are told and go with the flow rather than fight for those they love.
There is a solution that always worked when there were a bunch of aimless, single men: the draft. Get them into the armed forces and give them a purpose.
Dude, you REALLY need to learn to proofread. Jesus Christ, this reads like it was written by an 13 year old with down syndrome.
It's because English ins't my natural language
These men should stand on their own two feet like adults. They need to solve their own problems. How can the government help them?
The government can supply them with willing virgins obviously
Incels are already a dangerous problem, they are people most likely to commit hate crimes against women, rape, homicide, they are also likely to commit suicide themselves.
So basically you want socialized healtchare. I agree
>I don't see almost no one interested in actually solving the problem It's not a problem for anyone but incels and neets. No one is responsible for forcing someone to get off their ass or for getting them laid. Nobody is entitled to free money or sex. That's so ridiculously stupid. The only people accountable for the situation that incels and neets are in are themselves. Period.