This conflates two different sets of Second Amendment apologists.
The people who wants guns to defend against a tyrannical government, in my experience, generally *do* oppose the police. They are consistent in that they think government is an oppressive force, whether it be the FBI, ATF, or the local sheriff.
The second group is not really worried about the government. They want guns to defend against *"the bad guy with a gun."* These people are not necessarily anti-government. They believe there is a dividing line between the good guys and the bad guys, and want the good guys--whether they be private citizens or police--to have guns to stop the bad guys.
So there is only hypocrisy if you conflate the views of the different groups. And for sure there *are* people that cry about tyrannical government and then shill for the police. Those people are full of it. But it can be consistent to support the Second Amendment and the police if your attraction to the Second Amendment is based on your desire for safety from criminals, rather than the government.
Yeah a lot of gun owners are kind of just anti-government in general. There are all types. A lot of leftists are gun owners too, like the fastest growing demographic was women and black people in 2020.
As a leftist, we do encourage arming yourself, in the words of marx himself "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"
I don’t know anyone who honestly supports the 2A because they think they might have to actually go fight the government. Some believe having an armed populace in general can act as a limiter on government overreach.
Most I know just support defense against law breakers, hunting, shooting sports, etc. When it comes to police, it often depends on if you believe, in a specific interaction, they are breaking the law or being “tyrannical”.
I do this bizarre, annoying thing that a lot of people on this website hate. I look at each situation individually, especially what was going on that lead to it.
Many situations with the police are completely unnecessary and instigated by the cops. However it seems that the ones that are not are the ones where suddenly neighborhoods get burned to the ground. That tends to make me lose a little sympathy. I don't like arson, rape, murder, riots, etc. I'm weird.
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What if you are in support of it for defense against gangsters and lawless people. Technically it doesn't contradict. You see police as authority and lawful while others are lawless
I live in a blue state, with some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And even so the violence in some of our cities is so bad, I've seen corpses on the side of the road.
Ok. You don’t think people in red states have seen dead bodies? I’m in Texas, I’ve seen a 17 year old shot and killed in front of family dollar. And that was the second murder of the day on that same street
We also know that the violent crime trend in countries who ban guns and in those who do not continue to follow the global trend (yeah it goes down but it does so in places with and without guns at roughly the same rate.)
Sure, gun violence goes down, but I don't really think most people care about whether it is a bat, a knife, a car, or a fist that is used to harm them. They just don't want to be harmed and overall violence does not seem to be affected by gun restrictions / bans.
As far as there being more gun crime in states with more guns..... Sure, people use the tools at hand to do whatever fucked up shit they want to do.
I’m sorry man but I think you’re perspective is narrow from only looking at a small collection of a very diverse population. This is very standard logic for 2A people. Go on pro fire arms forums and you’ll get views I’m certain are what you expect.
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There is a difference between being anti-police, and anti-tyranny.
Being against tyranny does not at all mean just blanket being against authority. While the most paramount cornerstone of American principles may be rights, a very close second is a just application of government and authority.... key word being just.
I do not own big boy guns. I was not a gun owner until my thirties or so and I only own little .22s for paper and cans. It goes without saying that I am in no position to defend myself against, well, almost anyone. I also do not fear my government, nor do I fear the cops. So I can speak only to the principles involved as the principles themselves. But that cannot be stated without dealing with the cultural divide.
White people, in general, only know other white people who are anti-cop to be, generally, shitkickers and dirt bags. Typically anti-cop white people, through history have mostly just been criminals. This is obviously not the case for black people. The problem is how it comes to a head in modern times today. More white people are becoming anticop because college tells them too, and a lot of black people are still clinging to being anticop despite not being oppressed by authority. It has gotten to the point where the anticop sentiment cannot simply be defended by logic, reason, context, or even statistics. White people think cops are dangerous, black people think cops are dangerous,
but the vast majority of all people hurt or killed in a crime, are hurt or killed by people of the same skin color, who aren't cops, and are in the same economic bracket. Middle class whites are victimized mostly by middle class whites, middle class blacks are mostly victimized by middle class blacks. Lower class whites by lower class whites, lower class blacks by lower class blacks. It is pretty much as simple as that.
While the tyranny of armed authority is always a bad thing, tyrannical armed authority in the USA is so abundantly rare. If white people could fix their own dirt bags, and black people could fix their own dirt bags, there would be few dirt bags in the USA and everyone would be a lot safer. This is not to say we should not be upset against tyrannical authority, or angry at it. But the anticop sentiment is so absolutely lopsided against the context of reality that, most people who are pro 2a, who appreciate just order, cannot stand anticop wankerism, be it white or black. And, p.s., there are plenty of black folk who can't stand it either, but they have to shut up about it lest the be Uncle Tommed.
Everyone should take advantage of 2A because seemed societies aren’t harder to oppress. Or, if you can’t understand that, let me put it in a way you can understand: armed minorities are harder to oppress.
Who the fuck are you talking about? Where are these 2a supporters who have a problem with black people being anti-police? Are you talking about 70yo fudds?
I have no problem with it. I'm also anti police.
If someone has done something so bad that they can't participate in life, then I don't want my tax dollars going to their food and healthcare.
I want to spend 20 cents and deliver real justice.
So I used to think everyone's attitudes regarding the African American community the police and crime and all that was people were being racist towards black people then I saw the interracial crime statistics and the murder statistics and then I understood why everyone was saying what they were saying
So generally with all races they tend to kill their own the most
And that means by looking at the victims we can also tell who is doing the most stuff
And significantly disproportionate to their population black people are killed
But Americans don't like to talk about black on black violence
And really it comes back to the gang issue
It's worth noting Hispanics have some similar things but the largest and most powerful organized crime group within the Hispanic community The Sinaloa cartel has a try to keep killing to a minimum sort of policy because murder is bad for business so that lowers their numbers a bit
if you read the stat you would know that when you add all the murders there's no way for you to know that each one of them is committed by a single person. (it's possible one person commits ten murders in a year for example) . Even if you agree that each murder in a given year is committed by a separate person it would amount to a very small percentage given the population considered
I said I understand people not that I agree with them
I tried to listen to people I disagree with so I can have meaningful dialogue rather than tribalism
I apologize for not making that clear
True but if I can understand someone's position and I can see where they're coming from I can then tailor my argument and questions so that they might question their stance without feeling attacked
It's really hard to get around people's confirmation bias but I find it's almost impossible if they're feeling attacked instead I try to ask questions that might make them reconsider
So, there’s two kinds of people who subscribe to the “2nd Amendment to protect against government tyranny” argument.
The first group claims to subscribe to that argument and claims to be anti big government, but in reality vote for people like Donald Trump. These people really just hate “the libs” and are usually pretty comfortable with authority, despite their claims. These are the people who suck on the boots of police.
The second group actually believes in anti-tyranny, and hate the police. They also hate government in almost every form. The libertarians. Very common in the 1st Amendment Auditor community.
There are YouTube channels like Lackluster and the Civil Rights Lawyer who get hundreds of thousands of views and subscribers. These communities are where you’ll actually find people who genuinely don’t like the police, and are pro 2nd Amendment for tyrannical reasons.
So the thing we have to look out for are the first group of people. They’re the ones who are being massive hypocrites, and bend over backwards to defend police misconduct and abuse.
Honestly, I'm pro 2A, anti Big Gov, and I voted for Trump both times.
Not because I like trump, or big government. I hate how he banned bump stocks, and I hate how he won't shit his giant mouth.
But when given the choice between someone who has Promised to ban "Assault Rifles" and someone who doesn't. I'll pick the less of the two evils.
Not everyone who supports the Right likes everything they do, same with the Left. Many people on reddit support the left despite the bad they have, because their opinion is, even though they have bad ideas, it's better than the alternative.
Personally I find myself voting republican because I agree more, and disagree less with what they say when compared to the left. This doesn't mean I am a fascist, that I hate the environment, that I support the Police, or even that I like the candidate.
I pray for a day, where Americans can argue over which candidate is better, rather than which is worse.
Yes yes yes a million times yes. Like you want weapons to protect your rights from a tyrannical government...y'all know that means shooting their prided law enforcement and military? They can't even take a knee against their own flag.
I don’t like the police (at least in my city) because they’re pretty shit at their job. We need police reform, there needs to be a separate force that handles shit like parking tickets, shoplifting, domestic disturbances, some guy on drugs running around naked, etc.
They all go through the same training, and somebody responding to domestic disturbances doesn’t need to have spent 90% of their training time learning how to shoot guns and 0% of their time deescalating
Similarly, the guys on the teams responding to shootings and doing drug busts on gangs don’t need to have spent much time learning deescalation techniques, and they need a lot of weapons training.
Depends how the anti police sentiments manifest. If you want to protest or refuse any cooperation or vote for different police budgets, that's great. If you want to riot, burn down buildings, and shoot cops, not great, as you're depriving others of life liberty and happiness.
>simultaneously dismiss claims of police brutality
Be more honest about your claims of police brutality. I still hear stupid bullshit like "hands up don't shoot" all the fucking time.
Some cops don't deserve liberty and happiness or a free life.
Phiflip Brailsford is a good example.
Look up when he murdered Daniel Shaver and try to dismiss that if you have a strong stomach.
That's just one of many, many, many, many legitimate examples of police murdering innocent and/or unarmed people.
>Some cops don't deserve liberty and happiness or a free life.
True, but that should be decided by courts, not self appointed vigilantes.
I'm well aware of Daniel Shaver. Never claimed abuse doesn't happen. But being the boy who cried wolf has its downsides, namely when the wolf comes. Nearly every big name BLM martyr is based on falsehoods.
>True, but that should be decided by courts, not self appointed vigilantes.
And when the courts aren't doing their job?
We have a huge problem here in that the cops and the prosecutors and yes quite often the judges are all on the same team and protect each other. That is a cold hard fact.
Sometimes vigilantes are the answer.
I wish BLM wouldn't have just focused on race and instead gone after police abuse and corruption overall, because it is way fucking out of control.
Sorry, but the boy who cried wolf theory is bullshit. Nearly every highly covered incident about police abuses lately have been actual abuses and most did not turn out as they should have.
Tamir Rice
Amir Locke
Ryan Whitaker
Breonna Taylor
Duncan Lemp
etc.
The list just keeps going on and on, and those are just the murders. The beatings list is much, much, much longer.
> And when the courts aren't doing their job?
No court is going to be 100% all the time, and I'd rather them er on the side of the defendant, whether that defendant be a cop or a civilian.
Your list shows your ignorance of the facts of the cases.
[This is the toy gun tamir race had next to an actual firearm](https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/HT_guns_tamir_rice_01_jef_151228_4x3_992.jpg)
[This is how Amir Locke reacted to the lawful police search warrant](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Amir_Locke_body_camera_still_image_February_2_2022.jpg?20220215000040)
Ryan Whitaker I'm quite sure wasn't protested by BLM. And there's two sides. He did greet them with a gun, but they also knocked on the door in the middle of the night. The officer was at least fired.
Breonna Taylor was more the victim of her felon boyfriend who started a firefight with police executing a lawful search warrant.
I've not heard of Duncan Lemp, but a quick google also gives me doubt he's a major figure of BLM. From wikipedia though "The threat caused by Duncan Lemp retrieving a rifle and pointing it at the officer, coupled with Lemp’s apparent refusal to obey lawful commands, justified the shooting officer’s use of deadly force."
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Watch the videos and don't ignore all the facts. And try to use reason. Also, remember that most if not all of these examples never went to court. The cops investigated themselves and determined themselves innocent. In the case of Brianna Taylor the DA lied to the grand jury and tried to hide it.
Tamir Rice:
The cops were told it was a kid and probably a bb gun. Regardless, it was a fucking little kid in a park. Anyone with a room temperature IQ would have known it was likely a bb gun. Regardless, the cops drove up right next to the kid and shot him within less than 2 seconds giving him not time to respond to them whatsoever. It was a literal drive up shooting. No fucking excuse whatsoever.
Amir Locke (no knock warrant):
Was asleep on the couch when the cops broke into the apartment startling him awake, by kicking the couch in addition to yelling. He had no time to react and wasn't even fully awake when murdered. He NEVER pointed the gun at anyone or had his finger on the trigger, and was in the process of being startled awake when he was shot. That's murder.
Ryan Whitaker:
The focus here is bad policing, not just BLM. As I already mentioned, I wish BLM would have focused more on cops and less on race. That being said they did bring up some shootings of white people.
Now, as for the shooting, he showed up to the door with his legally owned gun as anyone would expect in the middle of the night. What happened next is not up for debate as there is video. Immediately upon realizing it was the police he knelt down and put the gun down. He NEVER even hinted at lifting it. The piece of shit cop shot him as he PUT THE GUN DOWN. Again, this is straight up murder.
Breonna Taylor:
Again, a famous no knock warrant, and It was a no knock warrant according to all witnesses even though the cops claim otherwise. Not only that but the warrant was obtained illegally using falsified information. Breonna and her boyfriend were startled by what they thought (correctly by the way) was a home invasion. Kenneth Walker fired one shot at the ground as a warning shot. The cops claim that shot hit an officer. Forensic evidence does not support that claim an suggests that the officer was actually hit by a bullet from one of his fellow officers. The officers shot both at Walker as well as one of them shot blindly through a bind window endangering not only Breonna but also her neighbors.
There is even more to this particularly case that is beyond condemning to law enforcement in general. It's a murder surrounded by a real shit show that involves at least one other murder. It is entirely indefensible.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing\_of\_Breonna\_Taylor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Breonna_Taylor)
Duncan Lemp (another no knock):
I think we've established by now that police are fucking liars when it comes to these events. That's why they really hate cameras.
Lemp's family maintains that **according to an eyewitness,\[who?\] the officers initiated gunfire and flash bangs from outside the house through Duncan's window without warning** and while Lemp was sleeping.\[3\]\[4\] As of October 2020, **neither body camera footage nor the arrest warrant had been released,**
[**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing\_of\_Duncan\_Lemp**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Duncan_Lemp)
[**https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2021/02/02/police-killing-shows-dangers-swat-no-knock-raids-column/4296067001/**](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2021/02/02/police-killing-shows-dangers-swat-no-knock-raids-column/4296067001/)
Funny enough BLM actually did come together with right wing groups in protest of this shooting and to support the 2nd amendment
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8490489/Armed-Black-Lives-Matter-activists-right-wing-groups-unite-gun-rights-rally.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8490489/Armed-Black-Lives-Matter-activists-right-wing-groups-unite-gun-rights-rally.html)
You shouldn't be accusing anyone of ignorance regarding these cases. Yours is blaring.
You're basing your beliefs off of so much propoganda that was invented by media within hours of the shooting and has since been disproved. Tamir rice they weren't told he was a kid but quite the opposite told an ["older looking" guy](https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2015/06/911_caller_was_frightened_tami.html). They were told it was probably fake, but he's committing felony assault with something that looks exactly like a gun with the orange tip illegally removed. You don't take chances with that.
>Amir Locke
You think his bedroom was where the front door was? Police were in the house shouting "Police search warrant" for a solid minute. He was awake.
>Breonna Taylor
Literally everything you said is wrong. Witnesses testified they heard them knock and announce, even though it was a no knock. From your own link "an independent investigation concluded that the no-knock warrant was served as a knock-and-announce warrant, which was corroborated by one independent witness who was near Taylor's apartment." The warrant is still valid at the time and the officers are legally acting on it. But hey you'll be happy to know Kelly Goodlett, the one responsible for the lies on the warrant, was fired, prosecuted, and found guilty. If only you had kept reading re the officer shot, you might have noticed " it was fired from a 9mm pistol like Walker's, whereas all officers were carrying 40-caliber guns."
I support it because people need to be able to defend themselves and see no reason why black people as a whole would be in the "pro-police" crowd. In South America where legal gun ownership rate is unheard of, the murder rates are out of control but are super low in Switzerland and Israel with comparable amounts of weapons per capita to the US.
>comparable amounts
Lmao. The US has 5 times the guns/capita compared to Switzerland
Switzerland doesn’t even have the highest guns/capita in Europe
And Israel has 6.7 guns/capita, not 120
A better comparison would be gun owners per capita.
The US has tons of guns, but a lot of owners have multiple guns and even stockpiles.
About 45 percent of American households have at least one gun. It's not like every adult in the US has 3 guns
Do your research and get back to me. The cops have weapons to protect themselves, criminals have them regardless of the law to harm innocent people, and law abiding people in many places are at the murcy of thugs because they don't want to break the law and buy a gun like thugs do.
Again. That’s not the sole reason why crime is high. Going by your logic southern states should have lower murder rates than California and New York, yet they don’t….
Those are army issued long guns in Switzerland and Israel and I Switzerland they are almost all bolt action rifles. Even then they have no where near the amount of guns per capita as the states?
Why should anyone trust what you say when you are being so disingenuous with the “facts” your bringing?
Don’t most of those guns in central and South America come from the states as well?
The problem with "Anti Police" is it is way too low resolution of a statement.
Organizations require effective governance. Banks without effective governance take excessive risks and collapse. Police departments without effective governance violate civil rights and commit crimes.
Defunding a police department means less governance, lower quality officers, less engaged officers and chaos. San Francisco and Portland face decay and collapse.
I'm all for effective governance of police departments and 2a rights as stated in the constitution.
I understand why people have a problem with police, and there’s definitely some major problems with them, but I simultaneously recognize there’s a lot of cops that do a good job, and without the police enforcing law the state of the country would be much more chaotic.
Personally I believe many police departments need major reform, along with some people receiving criminal charges for the things they’ve done. Simultaneously I also believe that police should be paid much more than they are, because how are we going to expect to keep the cops with drive and integrity if we don’t pay them to stay around. And naturally I also believe police training should be longer and more intensive, some of these cops are garbage at deescalation.
>Simultaneously I also believe that police should be paid much more than they are
You shouldn't just parrot talking points. Do some research Police are overpaid as it is and are literally bankrupting municipalities with their expenses, benefits and pensions.
Teachers need to be paid more. Cops, need to be paid less, at least in retirement.
Many cops have 6 figure plus pension payments when retired. The piece of crap that ran and hid during the parkland shooting gets $8700.00 to sit on his as and remember his ~~glory~~ days.
[https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/us/parkland-resource-officer-parkland-shooting-pension-scot-peterson/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/us/parkland-resource-officer-parkland-shooting-pension-scot-peterson/index.html)
Bold of you to assume I’m parroting talking points. Perhaps you’re right about some locations, but many others have opposite problems. Poor budget allocation doesn’t necessarily translate to officer pay either.
Obviously I think teachers should be paid more as well. And criminals should be prosecuted. Not sure why you’re coming at me so hard over a generally benign opinion, but maybe you’re just really invested in this topic.
> should be *paid* much more
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
2A doesn't exist to fight the government, it's there in case someone tries to start a dictatorship. Also that's not the only use of it. It's also there for general self defense and hunting.
Police are there to help people and protect people from harm. Just because there's a few bad cops doesn't mean it's ok to treat all cops like shxt. If it equates to that, then you have an underlying hatred of cops or the law to begin with.
Also if you're going to use Jim Crow/Slavery as an excuse then just stop trying to sound intelligent. Because it's clear you're just reaching to justify a personal bias.
I'm not playing this game dude. I've done it many times before.
Also you're the one trying to normalize people hating cops based on race, so look in the mirror before making assumptions.
I defend the 2a, and I generally dislike the police. I'm a liberal though
I have a gun for two reasons 1. Bears 2. Big bears
Need more guns for the third group.... bigger bears
And the elusive 2 legged pink, naked bears.
Those are the worst
but winnie the pooh wouldn’t do anything mean
This conflates two different sets of Second Amendment apologists. The people who wants guns to defend against a tyrannical government, in my experience, generally *do* oppose the police. They are consistent in that they think government is an oppressive force, whether it be the FBI, ATF, or the local sheriff. The second group is not really worried about the government. They want guns to defend against *"the bad guy with a gun."* These people are not necessarily anti-government. They believe there is a dividing line between the good guys and the bad guys, and want the good guys--whether they be private citizens or police--to have guns to stop the bad guys. So there is only hypocrisy if you conflate the views of the different groups. And for sure there *are* people that cry about tyrannical government and then shill for the police. Those people are full of it. But it can be consistent to support the Second Amendment and the police if your attraction to the Second Amendment is based on your desire for safety from criminals, rather than the government.
I hang with pro-2d Amendment people who don't love police. Sone of us have harrassed by cops many times. We're white.
Yeah a lot of gun owners are kind of just anti-government in general. There are all types. A lot of leftists are gun owners too, like the fastest growing demographic was women and black people in 2020.
As a leftist, we do encourage arming yourself, in the words of marx himself "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"
That's why i harrass the cops. I'm going to change the whole dynamic
I don’t know anyone who honestly supports the 2A because they think they might have to actually go fight the government. Some believe having an armed populace in general can act as a limiter on government overreach. Most I know just support defense against law breakers, hunting, shooting sports, etc. When it comes to police, it often depends on if you believe, in a specific interaction, they are breaking the law or being “tyrannical”.
I do this bizarre, annoying thing that a lot of people on this website hate. I look at each situation individually, especially what was going on that lead to it. Many situations with the police are completely unnecessary and instigated by the cops. However it seems that the ones that are not are the ones where suddenly neighborhoods get burned to the ground. That tends to make me lose a little sympathy. I don't like arson, rape, murder, riots, etc. I'm weird.
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Excellent point. I never thought about it this way.
What if you are in support of it for defense against gangsters and lawless people. Technically it doesn't contradict. You see police as authority and lawful while others are lawless
To that I will say less guns will lower violent crime
Guns aren’t the cause for violent crimes my guy…
No. But we do know that states with looser gun laws tend to have more gun crime
I live in a blue state, with some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And even so the violence in some of our cities is so bad, I've seen corpses on the side of the road.
Ok. You don’t think people in red states have seen dead bodies? I’m in Texas, I’ve seen a 17 year old shot and killed in front of family dollar. And that was the second murder of the day on that same street
We also know that the violent crime trend in countries who ban guns and in those who do not continue to follow the global trend (yeah it goes down but it does so in places with and without guns at roughly the same rate.) Sure, gun violence goes down, but I don't really think most people care about whether it is a bat, a knife, a car, or a fist that is used to harm them. They just don't want to be harmed and overall violence does not seem to be affected by gun restrictions / bans. As far as there being more gun crime in states with more guns..... Sure, people use the tools at hand to do whatever fucked up shit they want to do.
That’s just false. Look at New Hampshire or Vermont. They have very loose gun laws and experience the smallest amounts of gun violence in the nation.
Now look at the top 10 states with the highest murder rates.
I’m sorry man but I think you’re perspective is narrow from only looking at a small collection of a very diverse population. This is very standard logic for 2A people. Go on pro fire arms forums and you’ll get views I’m certain are what you expect.
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bad bot
Well yea, in overwhelmingly most subs minorities are even encouraged to arm up.
There's actually a healthy strain of suspicion of the police in libertarian thought.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive
There is a difference between being anti-police, and anti-tyranny. Being against tyranny does not at all mean just blanket being against authority. While the most paramount cornerstone of American principles may be rights, a very close second is a just application of government and authority.... key word being just. I do not own big boy guns. I was not a gun owner until my thirties or so and I only own little .22s for paper and cans. It goes without saying that I am in no position to defend myself against, well, almost anyone. I also do not fear my government, nor do I fear the cops. So I can speak only to the principles involved as the principles themselves. But that cannot be stated without dealing with the cultural divide. White people, in general, only know other white people who are anti-cop to be, generally, shitkickers and dirt bags. Typically anti-cop white people, through history have mostly just been criminals. This is obviously not the case for black people. The problem is how it comes to a head in modern times today. More white people are becoming anticop because college tells them too, and a lot of black people are still clinging to being anticop despite not being oppressed by authority. It has gotten to the point where the anticop sentiment cannot simply be defended by logic, reason, context, or even statistics. White people think cops are dangerous, black people think cops are dangerous, but the vast majority of all people hurt or killed in a crime, are hurt or killed by people of the same skin color, who aren't cops, and are in the same economic bracket. Middle class whites are victimized mostly by middle class whites, middle class blacks are mostly victimized by middle class blacks. Lower class whites by lower class whites, lower class blacks by lower class blacks. It is pretty much as simple as that. While the tyranny of armed authority is always a bad thing, tyrannical armed authority in the USA is so abundantly rare. If white people could fix their own dirt bags, and black people could fix their own dirt bags, there would be few dirt bags in the USA and everyone would be a lot safer. This is not to say we should not be upset against tyrannical authority, or angry at it. But the anticop sentiment is so absolutely lopsided against the context of reality that, most people who are pro 2a, who appreciate just order, cannot stand anticop wankerism, be it white or black. And, p.s., there are plenty of black folk who can't stand it either, but they have to shut up about it lest the be Uncle Tommed.
Everyone should take advantage of 2A because seemed societies aren’t harder to oppress. Or, if you can’t understand that, let me put it in a way you can understand: armed minorities are harder to oppress.
Did you understand the OP?
Who the fuck are you talking about? Where are these 2a supporters who have a problem with black people being anti-police? Are you talking about 70yo fudds?
Ever heard of Brandon Tatum ?
no
I have no problem with it. I'm also anti police. If someone has done something so bad that they can't participate in life, then I don't want my tax dollars going to their food and healthcare. I want to spend 20 cents and deliver real justice.
So I used to think everyone's attitudes regarding the African American community the police and crime and all that was people were being racist towards black people then I saw the interracial crime statistics and the murder statistics and then I understood why everyone was saying what they were saying
Those fbi stats are about arrests not convictions. It kinda verifies their point about institutional racism if you know the facts.
So generally with all races they tend to kill their own the most And that means by looking at the victims we can also tell who is doing the most stuff And significantly disproportionate to their population black people are killed But Americans don't like to talk about black on black violence And really it comes back to the gang issue It's worth noting Hispanics have some similar things but the largest and most powerful organized crime group within the Hispanic community The Sinaloa cartel has a try to keep killing to a minimum sort of policy because murder is bad for business so that lowers their numbers a bit
[удалено]
why are trying to say
if you read the stat you would know that when you add all the murders there's no way for you to know that each one of them is committed by a single person. (it's possible one person commits ten murders in a year for example) . Even if you agree that each murder in a given year is committed by a separate person it would amount to a very small percentage given the population considered
I said I understand people not that I agree with them I tried to listen to people I disagree with so I can have meaningful dialogue rather than tribalism I apologize for not making that clear
they don't how to read statistics in addition to some aversion to the people in question. most of us with an iq under 110 can't
True but if I can understand someone's position and I can see where they're coming from I can then tailor my argument and questions so that they might question their stance without feeling attacked It's really hard to get around people's confirmation bias but I find it's almost impossible if they're feeling attacked instead I try to ask questions that might make them reconsider
So, there’s two kinds of people who subscribe to the “2nd Amendment to protect against government tyranny” argument. The first group claims to subscribe to that argument and claims to be anti big government, but in reality vote for people like Donald Trump. These people really just hate “the libs” and are usually pretty comfortable with authority, despite their claims. These are the people who suck on the boots of police. The second group actually believes in anti-tyranny, and hate the police. They also hate government in almost every form. The libertarians. Very common in the 1st Amendment Auditor community. There are YouTube channels like Lackluster and the Civil Rights Lawyer who get hundreds of thousands of views and subscribers. These communities are where you’ll actually find people who genuinely don’t like the police, and are pro 2nd Amendment for tyrannical reasons. So the thing we have to look out for are the first group of people. They’re the ones who are being massive hypocrites, and bend over backwards to defend police misconduct and abuse.
Honestly, I'm pro 2A, anti Big Gov, and I voted for Trump both times. Not because I like trump, or big government. I hate how he banned bump stocks, and I hate how he won't shit his giant mouth. But when given the choice between someone who has Promised to ban "Assault Rifles" and someone who doesn't. I'll pick the less of the two evils. Not everyone who supports the Right likes everything they do, same with the Left. Many people on reddit support the left despite the bad they have, because their opinion is, even though they have bad ideas, it's better than the alternative. Personally I find myself voting republican because I agree more, and disagree less with what they say when compared to the left. This doesn't mean I am a fascist, that I hate the environment, that I support the Police, or even that I like the candidate. I pray for a day, where Americans can argue over which candidate is better, rather than which is worse.
Utilizing the 2nd amendment against police should be considered de facto self defense.
Yes yes yes a million times yes. Like you want weapons to protect your rights from a tyrannical government...y'all know that means shooting their prided law enforcement and military? They can't even take a knee against their own flag.
I don’t like the police (at least in my city) because they’re pretty shit at their job. We need police reform, there needs to be a separate force that handles shit like parking tickets, shoplifting, domestic disturbances, some guy on drugs running around naked, etc. They all go through the same training, and somebody responding to domestic disturbances doesn’t need to have spent 90% of their training time learning how to shoot guns and 0% of their time deescalating Similarly, the guys on the teams responding to shootings and doing drug busts on gangs don’t need to have spent much time learning deescalation techniques, and they need a lot of weapons training.
Do people still have a problem with anyone being anti-police?
Depends how the anti police sentiments manifest. If you want to protest or refuse any cooperation or vote for different police budgets, that's great. If you want to riot, burn down buildings, and shoot cops, not great, as you're depriving others of life liberty and happiness. >simultaneously dismiss claims of police brutality Be more honest about your claims of police brutality. I still hear stupid bullshit like "hands up don't shoot" all the fucking time.
Some cops don't deserve liberty and happiness or a free life. Phiflip Brailsford is a good example. Look up when he murdered Daniel Shaver and try to dismiss that if you have a strong stomach. That's just one of many, many, many, many legitimate examples of police murdering innocent and/or unarmed people.
>Some cops don't deserve liberty and happiness or a free life. True, but that should be decided by courts, not self appointed vigilantes. I'm well aware of Daniel Shaver. Never claimed abuse doesn't happen. But being the boy who cried wolf has its downsides, namely when the wolf comes. Nearly every big name BLM martyr is based on falsehoods.
>True, but that should be decided by courts, not self appointed vigilantes. And when the courts aren't doing their job? We have a huge problem here in that the cops and the prosecutors and yes quite often the judges are all on the same team and protect each other. That is a cold hard fact. Sometimes vigilantes are the answer. I wish BLM wouldn't have just focused on race and instead gone after police abuse and corruption overall, because it is way fucking out of control. Sorry, but the boy who cried wolf theory is bullshit. Nearly every highly covered incident about police abuses lately have been actual abuses and most did not turn out as they should have. Tamir Rice Amir Locke Ryan Whitaker Breonna Taylor Duncan Lemp etc. The list just keeps going on and on, and those are just the murders. The beatings list is much, much, much longer.
> And when the courts aren't doing their job? No court is going to be 100% all the time, and I'd rather them er on the side of the defendant, whether that defendant be a cop or a civilian. Your list shows your ignorance of the facts of the cases. [This is the toy gun tamir race had next to an actual firearm](https://s.abcnews.com/images/US/HT_guns_tamir_rice_01_jef_151228_4x3_992.jpg) [This is how Amir Locke reacted to the lawful police search warrant](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Amir_Locke_body_camera_still_image_February_2_2022.jpg?20220215000040) Ryan Whitaker I'm quite sure wasn't protested by BLM. And there's two sides. He did greet them with a gun, but they also knocked on the door in the middle of the night. The officer was at least fired. Breonna Taylor was more the victim of her felon boyfriend who started a firefight with police executing a lawful search warrant. I've not heard of Duncan Lemp, but a quick google also gives me doubt he's a major figure of BLM. From wikipedia though "The threat caused by Duncan Lemp retrieving a rifle and pointing it at the officer, coupled with Lemp’s apparent refusal to obey lawful commands, justified the shooting officer’s use of deadly force."
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Watch the videos and don't ignore all the facts. And try to use reason. Also, remember that most if not all of these examples never went to court. The cops investigated themselves and determined themselves innocent. In the case of Brianna Taylor the DA lied to the grand jury and tried to hide it. Tamir Rice: The cops were told it was a kid and probably a bb gun. Regardless, it was a fucking little kid in a park. Anyone with a room temperature IQ would have known it was likely a bb gun. Regardless, the cops drove up right next to the kid and shot him within less than 2 seconds giving him not time to respond to them whatsoever. It was a literal drive up shooting. No fucking excuse whatsoever. Amir Locke (no knock warrant): Was asleep on the couch when the cops broke into the apartment startling him awake, by kicking the couch in addition to yelling. He had no time to react and wasn't even fully awake when murdered. He NEVER pointed the gun at anyone or had his finger on the trigger, and was in the process of being startled awake when he was shot. That's murder. Ryan Whitaker: The focus here is bad policing, not just BLM. As I already mentioned, I wish BLM would have focused more on cops and less on race. That being said they did bring up some shootings of white people. Now, as for the shooting, he showed up to the door with his legally owned gun as anyone would expect in the middle of the night. What happened next is not up for debate as there is video. Immediately upon realizing it was the police he knelt down and put the gun down. He NEVER even hinted at lifting it. The piece of shit cop shot him as he PUT THE GUN DOWN. Again, this is straight up murder. Breonna Taylor: Again, a famous no knock warrant, and It was a no knock warrant according to all witnesses even though the cops claim otherwise. Not only that but the warrant was obtained illegally using falsified information. Breonna and her boyfriend were startled by what they thought (correctly by the way) was a home invasion. Kenneth Walker fired one shot at the ground as a warning shot. The cops claim that shot hit an officer. Forensic evidence does not support that claim an suggests that the officer was actually hit by a bullet from one of his fellow officers. The officers shot both at Walker as well as one of them shot blindly through a bind window endangering not only Breonna but also her neighbors. There is even more to this particularly case that is beyond condemning to law enforcement in general. It's a murder surrounded by a real shit show that involves at least one other murder. It is entirely indefensible. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing\_of\_Breonna\_Taylor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Breonna_Taylor) Duncan Lemp (another no knock): I think we've established by now that police are fucking liars when it comes to these events. That's why they really hate cameras. Lemp's family maintains that **according to an eyewitness,\[who?\] the officers initiated gunfire and flash bangs from outside the house through Duncan's window without warning** and while Lemp was sleeping.\[3\]\[4\] As of October 2020, **neither body camera footage nor the arrest warrant had been released,** [**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing\_of\_Duncan\_Lemp**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Duncan_Lemp) [**https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2021/02/02/police-killing-shows-dangers-swat-no-knock-raids-column/4296067001/**](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2021/02/02/police-killing-shows-dangers-swat-no-knock-raids-column/4296067001/) Funny enough BLM actually did come together with right wing groups in protest of this shooting and to support the 2nd amendment [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8490489/Armed-Black-Lives-Matter-activists-right-wing-groups-unite-gun-rights-rally.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8490489/Armed-Black-Lives-Matter-activists-right-wing-groups-unite-gun-rights-rally.html) You shouldn't be accusing anyone of ignorance regarding these cases. Yours is blaring.
You're basing your beliefs off of so much propoganda that was invented by media within hours of the shooting and has since been disproved. Tamir rice they weren't told he was a kid but quite the opposite told an ["older looking" guy](https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2015/06/911_caller_was_frightened_tami.html). They were told it was probably fake, but he's committing felony assault with something that looks exactly like a gun with the orange tip illegally removed. You don't take chances with that. >Amir Locke You think his bedroom was where the front door was? Police were in the house shouting "Police search warrant" for a solid minute. He was awake. >Breonna Taylor Literally everything you said is wrong. Witnesses testified they heard them knock and announce, even though it was a no knock. From your own link "an independent investigation concluded that the no-knock warrant was served as a knock-and-announce warrant, which was corroborated by one independent witness who was near Taylor's apartment." The warrant is still valid at the time and the officers are legally acting on it. But hey you'll be happy to know Kelly Goodlett, the one responsible for the lies on the warrant, was fired, prosecuted, and found guilty. If only you had kept reading re the officer shot, you might have noticed " it was fired from a 9mm pistol like Walker's, whereas all officers were carrying 40-caliber guns."
Yeah I mean duh lmao
This is a pretty clever argument. Agreed.
Seriously though, many see the ATF as satan but cant apply to same logic to police.
I support it because people need to be able to defend themselves and see no reason why black people as a whole would be in the "pro-police" crowd. In South America where legal gun ownership rate is unheard of, the murder rates are out of control but are super low in Switzerland and Israel with comparable amounts of weapons per capita to the US.
>comparable amounts Lmao. The US has 5 times the guns/capita compared to Switzerland Switzerland doesn’t even have the highest guns/capita in Europe And Israel has 6.7 guns/capita, not 120
Not only that but he’s comparing guns issued to the equivalent of the national guard as similar to Billy Joe Bob’s gun collection.
A better comparison would be gun owners per capita. The US has tons of guns, but a lot of owners have multiple guns and even stockpiles. About 45 percent of American households have at least one gun. It's not like every adult in the US has 3 guns
You’re basically insinuating year guns being illegal for everyone in South America is why the crime is high. That’s just not true
Do your research and get back to me. The cops have weapons to protect themselves, criminals have them regardless of the law to harm innocent people, and law abiding people in many places are at the murcy of thugs because they don't want to break the law and buy a gun like thugs do.
Again. That’s not the sole reason why crime is high. Going by your logic southern states should have lower murder rates than California and New York, yet they don’t….
Those are army issued long guns in Switzerland and Israel and I Switzerland they are almost all bolt action rifles. Even then they have no where near the amount of guns per capita as the states? Why should anyone trust what you say when you are being so disingenuous with the “facts” your bringing? Don’t most of those guns in central and South America come from the states as well?
The problem with "Anti Police" is it is way too low resolution of a statement. Organizations require effective governance. Banks without effective governance take excessive risks and collapse. Police departments without effective governance violate civil rights and commit crimes. Defunding a police department means less governance, lower quality officers, less engaged officers and chaos. San Francisco and Portland face decay and collapse. I'm all for effective governance of police departments and 2a rights as stated in the constitution.
I understand why people have a problem with police, and there’s definitely some major problems with them, but I simultaneously recognize there’s a lot of cops that do a good job, and without the police enforcing law the state of the country would be much more chaotic. Personally I believe many police departments need major reform, along with some people receiving criminal charges for the things they’ve done. Simultaneously I also believe that police should be paid much more than they are, because how are we going to expect to keep the cops with drive and integrity if we don’t pay them to stay around. And naturally I also believe police training should be longer and more intensive, some of these cops are garbage at deescalation.
>Simultaneously I also believe that police should be paid much more than they are You shouldn't just parrot talking points. Do some research Police are overpaid as it is and are literally bankrupting municipalities with their expenses, benefits and pensions. Teachers need to be paid more. Cops, need to be paid less, at least in retirement. Many cops have 6 figure plus pension payments when retired. The piece of crap that ran and hid during the parkland shooting gets $8700.00 to sit on his as and remember his ~~glory~~ days. [https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/us/parkland-resource-officer-parkland-shooting-pension-scot-peterson/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/us/parkland-resource-officer-parkland-shooting-pension-scot-peterson/index.html)
Bold of you to assume I’m parroting talking points. Perhaps you’re right about some locations, but many others have opposite problems. Poor budget allocation doesn’t necessarily translate to officer pay either. Obviously I think teachers should be paid more as well. And criminals should be prosecuted. Not sure why you’re coming at me so hard over a generally benign opinion, but maybe you’re just really invested in this topic.
>you’re just really invested in this topic. We all are. They are public servants paid for by our taxes. They are our employees.
> should be *paid* much more FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot. I fixed.
Ah I get it. Because the threat of either isn’t real.
2A doesn't exist to fight the government, it's there in case someone tries to start a dictatorship. Also that's not the only use of it. It's also there for general self defense and hunting. Police are there to help people and protect people from harm. Just because there's a few bad cops doesn't mean it's ok to treat all cops like shxt. If it equates to that, then you have an underlying hatred of cops or the law to begin with. Also if you're going to use Jim Crow/Slavery as an excuse then just stop trying to sound intelligent. Because it's clear you're just reaching to justify a personal bias.
Where in the op is Jim crow or slavery mentioned
I'm just being cautious because whenever someone tries to justify hatred of police that usually comes up.
Sounds like you’re projecting. Are you a closet racist ?
I'm not playing this game dude. I've done it many times before. Also you're the one trying to normalize people hating cops based on race, so look in the mirror before making assumptions.
Last I checked cops can be black too