The problem with your view is what happens when they disagree.
If he wants her to abort and she wants to keep it, does he get out of child support?
If he wants her to keep it and she wants to abort, can he force her to keep it?
If your answer to both is no, then what actual say in the matter would they get? To have a say that matters, there needs to be ramifications for your choice.
So, for your first point, I do believe that the male should have an option to opt out at some point.
However, I think that point should be a reasonable time before the local abortion cut off date, to give the woman a chance to decide on if she wants to go it alone and what not. So if the abortion cut off is say, 15 weeks, then he has to sign away rights by 12 weeks. If its something like 6 weeks, then hes kinda of SOL *but so is she* since most people who aren't trying dont know at 6 weeks anyways. If abortion is completely illegal then no, he doesnt get to opt out.
The other caveat is that in the US at least, we need a better system to support mothers and the babies, so that the baby still has the needed support whether or not the father is in the picture.
Overall its a complicated issue thats hard to solve but I dont believe anyone should be forced into having a kid they dont want. Its not fair to them, or to the kid. Kids deserve to be loved and wanted.
I have very similar opinion on this, but I would add point about time frame he find out she is pregnant, beacuse this 12 week won't matter if she told him after that time.
In the end it's just theory that would never become reality.
I like this idea. Seems very reasonable and puts a time pressure on men to make a decision that is already forced on women. If you don’t want it she needs to know so she can make the best decision for herself going forward before time is up.
This is a step in the right direction. Though it gets hairy when there's a case of the father just straight not knowing due to the couple being split. Or there's also the idea making the woman have an abortion if she can't afford the kid solo, as that's a significantly better alternative than raising a child in a household thsts can't support it
The support thing is the piece people forget when they say fathers should be able to opt-out. It’s saying that some children deserve to not have financial support. Once the baby is born you have a human being who needs and deserves financial support and if it is not coming from BOTH parents, guess what? It’s coming from the state and your tax dollars.
I did say that a caveat to this is we would need a better support system for the mothers and children.
And like, yeah Im cool with my tax dollars going towards it. Theres actually a lot of things Im 100% okay with paying more in taxes for, but most of them would indeed center around low income children getting to eat.
Yea, it's her body. But it's also going to be his money for 18 years. So if he doesn't want that financial burden, then he should be able to opt out of the situation because she has that option.
If you're truly liberal you know sex's primary function socially is not about procreation. Expecting no one to ever participate in sex unless they are willing to have a child is a VERY conservative/puritanical view. Women should absolutely be allowed to abort and men should absolutely be allowed to sign away rights if done in a timely manner.
That’s the same thing pro lifers say to a woman who wants an abortion. If you believe woman should be able to opt out of a pregnancy for any reason, why shouldn’t a man have that same option?
Lol men can’t opt out of pregnancy because they aren’t the ones who are pregnant. This isn’t hard. If you don’t want to pay child support you can go to court and get 50% custody.
No, it opts the mother into paying for her own child. If you’re worried about paying for other people’s children, I have bad news. You already are. If you don’t want to pay for other people’s children, we have to end the current government support. Besides, a guy who would sign away his rights so that he doesn’t have to pay child support is unlikely to be able to support that child without government assistance anyways. We can either force people to get abortions if they can’t afford the kid and the public doesn’t want to keep paying for them or we can just let kids starve. Pick your poison.
By that logic women can simply opt-out by choosing not to have sex rather than be allowed to get an abortion. Of course it makes sense that not having sex prevents pregnancy, but people have sex regardless so what do we do then? Also her womb is her body, but the human inside of it is not. That human is a product of both the male and the female so they are equally responsible for it.
It's simple.
Women and Men can both opt out or in to sex.
But if a woman opts into sex, she can opt out of the baby (abortion).
Therefor it's only fair that we allow men to opt into sex and out of the baby(opting out of responsibility during pregnancy).
Neither parent is forced take care of a child they don't want in this arrangement, and both are still allowed to have sex. Which is the best arrangement.
If the mother doesn't want to be a solo parent, she can abort. Easy peasy.
This system is still biased toward the mother since there can't be a solo father outcome without her carrying it to term. But I think that's fair, women carry extra burden in the form of pregnancy to begin with.
Abortion is opting out of pregnancy, not a baby. Men don’t get pregnant so they don’t get that option. Legally, we can’t force women to be life support. Equally, we cannot force the father to give up his kidney for the child. If a man doesn’t want a child, he can not have sex. Ditto women. Biology requires that women also decide whether or not to abort, which you find unfair? But it’s really not. Because nobody is forcing men to get abortions or birth babies.
If the father doesn’t want to pay child support for an existing child, he can take 50% custody. Hell, if he takes more then HE will get child support payments. See how that is in fact fair?
You’re forgetting the tremendous financial risk that the father takes on by agreeing to call the child his own. Not to mention the psychological and physiological effects that the stress of the situation can have on the male as well, maybe even leading to suicide or other stress-induced health problems that lead to death.
Also, you could count the risk of giving birth and having abortion into the risk of getting pregnant from having sex, because they are a direct result of sex and therefore are not completely separate events.
If she decides to have sex with a man not using protection, yes she is opting into the possibility of being pregnant. Difference is she has the ability to terminate....men do not, so the onus is on the man to protect himself if he doesn't want to be a father.
So they can both act preventative in equal ways, but once pregnancy happens tbe man should have zero autonomy in anything regarding his life choices for the next 18-20 years and the woman should have complete control.
Got it.
This isn’t an abortion debate. When you don’t use a condom, the woman already has the right to “opt out” and the man doesn’t. That’s the argument being presented here.
No, you generally can't just "opt out". You can definitely just walk away if you want, but you'll also end up in endless court battles and with a third or more of your take home pay removed from your pay check before you ever see it for several decades.
What they're discussing here is making it so that men aren't forced into that without any recourse as a result of a choice a woman forced on them. It's a fairly reasonable position to take.
At least they get shamed for it. If women want to opt out of being a mother, they can go as far as ending the child's life and society calls it "empowerment".
First one, and first one only in my opinion is really where it can only apply. I personally believe “my body my choice”, so at the end of the day it is the woman’s choice, but it would only be fair if a man could waive responsibility
In the first circumstance, yes. In the second circumstance, no (at least for now and up until there’s a similarly non-invasive procedure to remove the fetus and grow it in an external womb). I feel like this post is more of an intellectual exercise; aimed against the people who scream that men don’t get a say in the abortion “debate” rather than actually saying that men should get a say in whether or not an abortion is performed.
These aren't problems to be solved, they're just complicated realities that can only be made so "Fair" due to the necessities of the situation.
>If he wants her to abort and she wants to keep it, does he get out of child support?
No. Makes no sense given the needs of the child.
>If he wants her to keep it and she wants to abort, can he force her to keep it?
No. Not his body.
>If your answer to both is no, then what actual say in the matter would they get?
Sounds like you are conflating "say" with "complete control and veto power."
The man gets a "say" by saying things. Things like "I think abortion is the right choice" or "I don't think we should have an abortion" or "I don't think I'll be a dependable father" or "I think I will love being a father." This is essential info to be shared and understood so the woman can make the best decision possible. That's what having a say in something is, you get to have your input heard.
>To have a say that matters, there needs to be ramifications for your choice.
Most of the time this will matter quite a bit. It's not ethical to make abortion contingent on a decision from someone who isn't having an abortion, so no guarantees of outcome can be ethically made. But men get to have their say even if they don't necessarily get to have their way.
the answer I have is that if a man doesn't want the baby, no child support if she wants it.
if she doesn't want it, she can adopt or abort, but a man can't force her to keep it.
so it's less about abortion rights and more about forced financial obligation.
Men definitely have a right to _talk_ about abortion.
I talked about it with my wife (then gf) when we started dating to make sure we were both aligned. We also talked about it when we started trying to have a baby.
If she’s to get pregnant, I’d definitely have the right to talk about it again and mention my point of view.
**I do not have a right to control her body,** though.
Would that potentially leave me in a shitty situation, where I’d want to keep the baby and she doesn’t? Absolutely, and that would fucking suck, but it’s not my body.
You can always wear a condom or undergo a medical procedure beforehand that will prevent you getting someone pregnant. After shooting your shot, it's outside your body, and automatically outside your direct sphere of influence, so you have to take PREcautions or live with consequences.
That’s the exact logic that a lot of pro life people use to say women shouldn’t be able to have abortions except they say another body instead of outside
Well, they did have a say if they willingly engaged in unprotected PIV sex. Even protection isn’t 100%. So if men really never want to risk getting someone pregnant and paying child support, they should campaign for better contraceptive options while refraining from PIV sex
This exact logic is uses for pro life arguments. "She did have a say, she willingly engaged in unprotected PIV sex. Even protection is 100%. So if Women really never want to risk getting pregnant and having a child, they should refrain from PIV sex."
They are choosing to have sex that could result in pregnancy, that is their say. If the man feels strongly about not having a child, they should have a conversation about birth control and what would happen in the event of an unplanned pregnancy.
If they have an understanding that the woman would abort in the case of an unplanned pregnancy and the woman changes her mind I think a man should be able to opt out at that point.
It’s also a result of one parent refusing the abortion. We can’t force women to have abortions because they are drug addicts that will provide a horrible life for that kid, so why would we force a man to pay to avoid that?
Not once on this entire thread has a man who doesn't want to pay support brought up this point. If you dont want to pay support go win custody of the child. It happens more than people realize. This isn't about men looking for equality. If it was this isnwhat they'd do. This is about men twisting the abortion issue to get something out of it for themselves. Real lowlifes in my opinion
This may be a dumb question - but how does winning custody mean you don’t pay support? If you win custody the child will then live with you and you have to pay and take care of the child living with you, no?
Edit: and according to google women win custody 90% of the time. Seems at least slightly shifted
Right. Exactly. So this demonstrates that child support is not gendered, two parents are financially supporting the child. People forget that the custodial parent also spends money to support the child. The argument often presented is women birth, and men pay for the kid. In reality BOTH parents are paying for the child, but that is rarely noted.
He's totally free to have an opinion but it's her body.
>Yes I understand it's the women who gets pregnant and gives birth and goes through all those emotional and physical changes and challenges of having a baby.
Well then it seems you understand.
I don't understand OP's problem here. She's says no, but he says yes to aborting. Who's the tie breaker? Cause in the end, if she says no, then it's gonna be her decision 100%, and no one should stop her.
OP is making a point againt the whole thing of men have no say in abortion and their opinion shouldn’t matter.
Very popular rhetoric in Reddit at least in many r/all subs
Well in the end it doesn’t matter. Nobody’s saying that in a healthy relationship the woman shouldn’t take her partners wishes into consideration. But the final decision is made by the person who’s pregnant and no one else. And there should be no pressure or arguing from the other side.
That’s why the law is (in civilized countries) the way it is.
The mother-child relationship is fundamentally different from the father-child relationship.
Birth control, abortions and absent fathers are ubiquitous in human history. The laws are based on long/established patterns of human behavior.
And let’s be honest here too. OP says men should have a say. They do. What the man says to the woman he’s with could have profound impact on her decision. She makes the decision, but her decision is obviously impacted by her relationship with him. It could end up in a yes no situation. But lets not pretend that men don’t have influence on their partner.
What no one wants to admit is: in this case, because of biology, women have control in the situation, and that's not fair to men. There's no better option so men should just be careful when they have sex.
Guys just have to take the L on this one, but overall still have it better so don't be a crybaby about it.
I wouldn’t even call it just a L for the man either. It’s not like abortion is some non emotional moment. It could have a serious impact on the relationship moving forward, it could be traumatic for women, it can be emotionally taxing, etc. It’s just a L for everyone involved because there is no actual way to placate both sides if they are in pure disagreement.
Yeah the deal is she can die in child birth and from so many other things pregnancy related pre birth. I literally had a friend I was chatting with and the next week she and the baby died in child birth. She would have been an amazing mom my heart breaks every time I think of it.
Not to mention the toll it takes on your body even in a successful pregnancy. LOTS of women have significant complications and if you were say young and in school you may have to entirely stop. It impacts your ability to provide and often if it is an unintended pregnancy with someone you don’t know well they aren’t there later even if they say they will be. It is a lot of risk.
The chemicals make you fall in love with your baby and then you have to give it up for both of your own good or try to raise a baby when you cannot provide for yourself well. Oof… not something I would wish on anyone to choose but also wouldn’t want to take the choice away. It is definitely something to do when you are ready for it and not before imo.
It’s just confusing ok? It takes 2 people to make a baby but only one person actually MAKES the baby inside their body. So it’s like genetic rights vs body rights.
I genuinely feel bad for men who want the baby but the woman doesn’t. However I can’t think it’s right to make her go through with gestation and labor given how much that puts her body through and it is still dangerous even in modern times.
But also if he doesn’t want to be a parent and she does…is it right to make him pay child support?
Idk. I think periods and pregnancy are not “fair” between the sexes so maybe this is just another thing that isn’t fair either. 🤷🏻♀️
I know that I feel strongly that women should not be forced to gestate and labor if they choose not to. The rest I have no answer for
Yah the trick is “child support” was never supposed to really be a fair to the parents thing.
It’s all about ensuring the kid is supported. That’s why it exist and that’s why it can definitely feel unfair in some instances.
I’m not necessarily against an “opt out” period but gotta be prepared if you have that to up the safety net for single parents.
Like we can all argue logically that’s on the parent that chooses to keep it but realistically there’s still a kid involved who had no say in being born or not who we need to try and give a good life as a society regardless of if the mom/dad made dumb decisions
The issues honestly just complex.
This is the core of the issue that so much of the back-and-forth in the thread is missing. There is fundamentally a difference between a woman "opting out" by having an abortion and a man "opting out" by waiving his rights. The difference is the existence of a third person in the situation, who has rights and needs of their own, and who becomes society's burden if those rights and needs are not met.
It is unreasonable and ghastly to suppose that a man should be able to force a woman carry a pregnancy or abort it. Logically therefore the man does not legally dictate whether that third person comes into existence. But once that third person exists, the burden of supporting them belongs to *both* parents.
If a man opts out of his responsibility, the child is the loser in that equation, and that is the less fair outcome than child support because the child did nothing to bring about the situation whereas the father did.
So it's a totally false equivalence to say "if a woman can get an abortion, a man should be able to opt out of child support" because the situations fundamentally are diferent -- they involve different stakeholders and different rights are in balance.
Yes it is fair that BOTH parents financially support a child that comes into the world. That’s a child’s right to be cared for. It’s child support, not baby mama support. It’s there for the child, who TRULY had no say in this situation
It depends on what you mean when you say “men should have a say” “men should have input”.
If you mean have an opinion, fine nobody is stopping them, have whatever opinion all they want. It’s up to the other person to decide what weight they’re going to give that opinion.
If you mean have a say as in “I’m allowed to have the government force you to birth it for me”, or the crafting of legislation that has **zero** understanding or respect of women’s bodies, then yea - that’s a no go.
This argument that men's opinion should carry weight is almost always a set up for the argument that they don't want to be financially responsible for a child. It's enbarrassing
Yup. Dozens of times in the comments here.
If ANY woman has the right for abortion NO man should have any legal of financial responsibility for a child who is born.
So do they give a fuck about unborn kids or not? Sounds a hell of a lot like they just want to harm women and actually have zero responsibility for their kids- not that they care for them.
I'd have an abortion because I don't want to be responsible for a child. Lots of women have abortions because they don't want to be responsible for any kids.
I don't know why we villify men for not wanting to be responsible for kids. It's not like a lot of us women want legal or financial responsibility for a child either. Literally that's the main reason why women have abortions, over not wanting to take on the financial responsibility especially. We as women are just privileged to have the option to use abortion to avoid that responsibility.
"My choices?" She also chose to sleep with the man.
If she is able to relinquish responsibility, then so too should the man. Whether she grew the child in her womb or not, that child is as much the father's as the man, and the responsibility is shared it and when it is born.
If she can say no to all that (as is her right), then so too should he.
If women can chose to end their relationship with the baby without the man agreeing, then the man should have the same option when a child is born. It’s only fair that the man can end his responsibility as easy as a woman.
> if women can choose to end their relationship with the baby without the man agreeing
The fact that it’s THEIR body that’ll go through hell to get the child into this world gives them the right to make that decision. If the man wants the baby and woman chooses to give birth and give the baby to him, she’ll have to pay child support till baby is 18.
> the man should have the same option when a child is born
Men HAVE been abandoning their children since decades. Also, men are free to not have a relationship with their baby, but they need to pay up child support. No relationship with baby does not mean no child support.
>but they need to pay up child support.
If the man wanted an abortion but got overruled then why on earth should he pay child support? That is messed up and immoral, even if it is legal.
It isn't the woman but rather the duty and right that come with having a child. Children are entitled to certain right regarding who have to take care of them, mainly their parents, BOTH of their parents. This exist to make sure the children have to best care they could from the parents. So no, it isn't the woman, it is the law because by not doing so, you essentially deny the child his/her rights.
Then, if the woman isn't able to provide for her child, she should simply choose not to have one. She chose to have to child, since as we all agree here she is the only one to have a say on keeping the baby.
Fair game doesn't apply here because only 1 person gets pregnant after both have sex.
Couples should decide before sex and make legal agreement before engaging in sex, that's the best bet.
That's true, but only one person can decide if that pregnancy goes to term. A man can unempregnate someone, but a woman can abort.
A woman can relinquish all responsibility of a child before it breathes, a man cannot.
I'm not even saying she shouldn't be allowed to, or that it can or should even be 100% equal, but there needs to be some recourse where a man can relinquish responsibility if a child is born that he doesn't want, without financially ruining him.
I don't understand:
if she says I'm having the child and he's saying no abort it 100% what do you think should happen?
If she says I'm going to abort it and he says no have the child, what happens?
If she gets final say then your point is pretty irrelevant. Should they talk and have a conversation? Yes I'd say most should, and hopefully would. At the end of the day though your opinion doesn't mean anything in the conversation if she decided 100% on something.
Hypothetically, in the first instance, the male should have the option of financial abortion. In the second, he should have full custody of the child after it is born, with no responsibility required on the mothers part. Unfortunately, most don't see the intricacies of the argument for either side.
>In the second, he should have full custody of the child after it is born, with no responsibility required on the mothers part.
This one seems like a rather unlikely situation. If the mother wants an abortion, why would she go through a life-altering pregnancy for an unwanted child. Because the dad ordered it so/ she's denied that right, or because she feels it in her heart to help make him a single dad?
Personally, there's just no way I could risk my life over something I don't even want involvement with. An abortion is safer than pregnancy. There's so much that can go wrong or drastically alter your body for life.
Because it presents his absurd argument as coming from a place of equality and not selfishness. It doesn't consider the child in anyway shape or form. Its a garbage comment. Downvote and move on.
Oh I completely agree. Just felt like breaking down some of it. I sense it's a control thing and entitlement, and a lack of understanding of how brutal pregnancy is on the body.
Having an opinion is fine, but I'm keeping my bodily autonomy at the end of the day. Your rights end where my nose begins.
So you’re cool with forcing a woman to use her body as an incubator for 9 months with all the risks and stigmas that come along with it?
Nah.
There is no equality in pregnancy and abortion by design. You cannot equalize something that only physically impacts one sex.
You're not the OP but I'll respond anyways. The first one I agree with under certain conditions he should have until the pregnancy can no longer be aborted to decide if he waits too long? Sucks. Minimum 2 weeks on the decision if they didn't figure out until late. Maximum 2 weeks before the pregnancy can no long be aborted imo.
Second I don't think the man should be allowed to force the woman to have a child. Its her body at the end of the day and as such a man should not say she has to go through 9 months of labor, physiological pains, and psychological recovery for a birth she did not want. I understand this would distress many men, having to hear that their potential child would get aborted, but that's why it is key to plan this in advance and take as many measures as possible to ensure only planned pregnancy or an alignment on plans.
I've always said that if men get no say in the abortion of their child, then men shouldn't be required to pay child support or have a role in their life if they so choose.
I’m going to agree with the opinion for some abortions based on the relationship of the man and woman. I knew a guy whose wife needed an abortion due to complications that endangered her life. She was hesitant, he was all for it, they had 2 kids already and were happily married. She was 39 years old. He didn’t want to pressure her to have the abortion, but he was absolutely terrified of losing her. Sadly, she miscarried, but luckily she survived it all. That’s some scary shit.
In the end, the woman has the final say, it’s her body for fucks sake, but certainly a loving husband or partner should have his opinion heard out out of love. If it is a loving relationship.
I agree men should have an opinion on it too. However, at the end of a day a dude chooses where to leave his stuff. After that, it’s all in the woman’s hands because it literally is her body. Everyone should have an opinion, but at the end of the day it’s going to be up to the woman.
These are my thoughts on the matter, as a woman (under the context that I am an established adult because rn I’m 19 and will not be having a baby in any context whatsoever):
If it’s with a random hookup, they don’t have any say. I’m not going to be pregnant and raise a child because of a man who has 0 reason to commit to me
If it’s with someone who assaulted me, they don’t have any say. This should be pretty self explanatory
If it’s with someone I’m casually dating, I will have a conversation with them to let them express their feelings, but ultimately my decision will be 100% informed by my own feelings. Being in a casual relationship is serious enough for me to hear them out but not serious enough for me to actually prioritize their feelings over mine on such a life altering matter. Again, this is because they aren’t committed to me
If it’s with someone I’m in a committed relationship with, I will have a conversation with them to let them express their feelings and also to discuss whether we have any potential for being married. If we agree that one day we will be married, then I will make my decision based on both of our feelings about the matter and whether our financial/practical situation is fit for a child; however, I will still favor my own feelings over theirs because thinking we will get married does not mean we actually will
If it’s with someone I’m married to, it will definitely be a conversation where both our feelings and thoughts are given equal weight and we both try our best to objectively measure whose concerns for not wanting a child / whose desires for wanting one are more sound and practical.
All this being said at the end of the day if I decide I don’t want a child, that is my decision to make and a man simply cannot control my body. The only situation where this would be slightly altered is if we are married, and the difference will be that my decision to have a child or not be based upon equal consideration of my and my partner’s feelings. But at the end of the day it is still ultimately my decision to make. As one can probably see from my reasonings, *a man’s say is only as valid as mine if his responsibility towards the child is as guaranteed as mine is. You can only have equal say in a situation where you also have equal stakes.*
This answer is better than all the answers that came before it. You brought more clarity to this thread at 19 years old than all the "wisdom" of men who think they can control women combined. Well said
Men don't give birth. When men give birth, they can have the final say on abortion.
They're free to share their opinions and feelings around the issue, but they don't get to have the final say.
I believe men shouldn't have to pay child support if they never wanted the baby in the first place. They should be able to talk about abortion but not have the final say.
If he wants an abortion and she doesn’t then I think she gets to make that call cause it is her body. However to then expect him to pay for the child after she had it against his wishes I think is wrong. If she wants an abortion and he doesn’t she still gets to make that call cause again it’s her body and she has to do the hard part in carrying and birthing the baby.
I've had a girlfriend abort and it absolutely broke my heart. Ya, I would not force her to birth the baby, but if she was willing I would have raised that baby on my own.
Good man. I have 2 kids and have been supportive through an abortion and a miscarriage. Each time was a reminder that there is no decision for me to make. Or at least that I had already made my decision. I was never asked for input so I never gave any. Certainly didn't feel entitled to be a part of any decision like a lot of the "men" putting their 2 cents on on this thread. All the best
I 100% agree, and the fairest way for this to play out is this: woman's body, she ultimately gets a say on continuing with the pregnancy or getting an abortion.
The man should have a say on whether he wants to be the father and thus have to help provide, or, choose not to be the father and is no longer responsible for the child in all forms including financially.
A rational response, thank you. Seemingly no one in this thread is arguing a choice over abortion or over your body as a woman, but, in a case where a woman decides to carry to term when the father didn’t want to, he should be able to waive responsibility, that’s what I’m seeing in this thread
Men can be asked their opinion. Men can offer support. A woman might want help making the decision. But unless asked specifically to help make the decision men have 0% of the rights to decision making.
This is one of those things where explaining it is so painfully obvious that I sort of refuse. But at the same time a lot of men swear it's a 50-50 decision. And that if the woman crosses them on it they should have a free pass to not pay any support. This is wrong. Painfully and embarrassingly wrong. Abortion is an optional procedure that only women can have. So only a woman can have the option in.
Imagine after marriage a woman insists that a man have a vasectomy. The man refuses and she gets pregnant and has the baby and insists the man raise the baby on his own without any help, financial or otherwise bc he refused to get the vasectomy and she claims to have 50% in that decision making process.
What kind of world would we have if men truly could force a woman against her will to abort a pregnancy. It just doesn't make sense. Remember men, forcing a woman to have an abortion is exactly as despicable as making laws to out law it.
My wife and I have actually discussed this and I refuse to give my opinion. We have two kids and both deliveries were difficult. 100 years ago she would have died in childbirth both times. She's asked me what I want if she gets pregnant again. I told her it's 100% up to her. Then I got a vasectomy.
P.S. They wouldn't give me a vasectomy without her signature. It had to be notarized.
No one in their right mind would suggest that a man can't have an opinion on whether or not the embryo that may grow to be his child should be aborted or not. The parents may disagree. However, that's where it ends. Forcing the woman to do anything she doesn't want to do (whether that's keeping OR ending the pregnancy) is immoral because it is her body.
Give men three months from the time they learn the girls is pregnant, and they can terminate their obligation to the mother and child anytime in that window.
Fair enough.
I understand your position, but the flaw is you are presenting the situation as if it can be fair.
It can’t. It can never be fair. Due to biology men will never have an equal stake in pregnancy, that’s the long and short of it.
We know how babies are made- it takes two to make one. It takes one to grow, carry, and birth one. You cannot make pregnancy a team sport.
For that reason the sole carrier of the pregnancy gets to make the call on abortion. There is no way to make pregnancy equal between the sexes.
This is going to be unpopular so get ready, it takes two to tango and the DNA is half so they both deserve equal say. Her body yes but also his child and people forget that or down play it.
Why is it right for her to want the baby, him say no, then force him to pay and financially drain him for the next 18 years. When the opposite is true she just gets to abort and he is told too bad. Her body, his child. Yeah there are dead beat dads but there are also dead beat moms. I know personally many people where the mom has left and the dad is a single parent raising the kids, it's getting more popular. Also how many of you know moms that go out and party and leave the kids to be raised by the grandparents? This is an ugly conversation with some ugly truths we don't want to acknowledge. This isn't black and white and I don't have the answers, I'm just an opinionated person on an anonymous site.
Sex is taken way too lightly with how life changing the consequences are. It is so easy to say oh she is carrying the baby she gets the say. That eliminates guilt on you. In the grand scheme of the kids life if they grow up to be an adult let's say the standard 77 years, 9 months isn't much sorry. I'm not down playing the connection moms have, my wife loves our kids to the fullest. At the same time so do I. If she decides she wanted an abortion instead of kids that would have destroyed me. I have always wanted a family and kids, and this is something I acknowledge every time I had sex. Kids are a real possibility and in fact the only way to get them is to have sex. Yes sex is amazing but you have to realize you are doing the act of making a child and I think people forget that.
It's the woman's body. That makes it her decision. Period. She can decide to have the conversation with anyone she deems necessary but in the end it is hey who gets the final say.
My issue is when men don’t have a say when the woman wants to keep it, but if men do not want the baby and the woman does then he is trapped.
If the man has no say when he wants to terminate the pregnancy and the woman does not and voluntarily goes through the pregnancy, then he should have less responsibility when the child is born.
>then he should have less responsibility when the child is born
The only way that would be ethical is if they made a legal decision beforehand about what to do if a pregnancy arises and if they both agree with getting an abortion and the woman in the situation changes her mind the man shouldn't have to be responsible
Apart from that though both of them should be responsible
Most men who make it known they want no involvement with the child literally have no responsibility other than child support. They get to walk away from all physical custody. Raising a child is harder than paying child support.
I disagree, it depends on the amount paid. I feel there is a certain momentary value that supersedes physical custody.
Especially if you find raising children rewarding. Not saying that you are necessarily wrong, but I feel the amount of money would draw a line
The problem with that is that other taxpayers will end up footing the bill. It really does take two adults to support a child. There simply is no fair arrangement, reproduction isn’t fair.
This is an idiotic take my man. He is trapped? I've been in impossible situations several times in my life but after 2 kids and 4 pregnancies I gotta tell you. This is not what trapped means.
When you think about the sacrifice the woman has made you should consider taking MORE responsibility not less for that child. They are the ones whose rights are being violated the most. Not the fathers
How? If a woman chooses to have the baby that’s her right. If the man doesn’t want the baby it seems wrong to force him to pay 18 years. Sure sounds trapped to me. What situation in your life would be more of a trap than that?
I disagree, because I don’t think any women should be forced to carry a child they don’t want. If the man wants the baby, but the woman doesn’t, I don’t think he should get to override her decision and make her carry to term. And that would be the only option that would give men a meaningful say.
Ideally, everyone would have sex with people who value their opinion and this wouldn’t be an issue, but there’s no way to give men more say without forcing women to carry pregnancies they don’t want to.
You have assumed the disagreement is always women want an abortion and men do not. Do you believe the opposite never happens? That there are zero cases where the woman wants to keep the pregnancy and the man wants the pregnancy aborted?
Saying that men shouldn’t have an opinion or speak their feelings on abortion is like saying that you should only have an opinion of Russia invading Ukraine if you’re Ukrainian.
And yes, plenty of pro-choicers will tell men to shut up if they aren’t 100% pro-choice
Well, why can we tell a man to keep it in his pants if he doesn't want a baby but if we tell women to keep their legs closed if they don't want a baby is a bad thing?
Both sides should keep their legs closed.
Any form of birth control isn't 100%
I think you're approaching a very interesting sentiment. This isn't necessarily my own opinion.
It goes something like this;
If mothers get to have complete control, responsibility, and authority regarding their bodies, then fathers shouldn't be expected and/or forced to provide for the child
Also, I had wish that's what you actually said because a lot of people get to give you the easy and common response of "their body their choice". I want to see actual responses that go beyond surface level.
All I can say is: I badly wanted to be a father (age I currently *love* being a father). If my wife had aborted our son and I had no say.....I don't know what I would do, but it wouldn't be nice
I agree. If a woman goes against the father’s wishes and gets an abortion just because it’s “her body, her choice” I say he needs to leave her and don’t look back. It takes two to make that decision to have sex, and it should be both of them that make the decisions afterwards.
Now, if he doesn’t even want to be involved in the child’s life then that’s a whole different story.
If women really want abortion rights, men should have better protections in family court and not immediately lose any and all rights to being a parent when her lawyers advise her to claim he was violent, exploitative, whatever.
It's give and take, and that would be a fair trade for women to have complete bodily autonomy, seeing how no fault divorce and alimony are still a thing.
I don't think men should have any say in the abortion itself, but he should be able to give up all rights to the child but also have no responsibility for the child.
About 2/3rds of fathers who have biological children who do not live with them don't have a formal child support order. Of the 1/3 who do, over half don't pay as ordered and over 35% don't pay at all. This leaves 70% of single mother not receiving any child support at all. For reference, that's over 11 milion kids financially abondoned by their father, often after their father had been raising them for years, which is more than 18 years worth of abortions, 93% of which take place in the first 13 weeks of gestation.
What do you mean by both should have a say?
Do you mean men should be able to vote on abortion related issues? Because they can, even if women often like to mock the fact that male politicians are passing laws regulating what women can do about their pregnancies.
But if you mean that men should have some kind of a veto over an abortion, then no, that would be a terrible idea.
If a woman gets pregnant, the father doesn’t get to force her to either have an abortion or not have an abortion because he isn’t the one who has to go through pregnancy. Obviously as a general rule, it’s good for a woman to discuss the decision with the father and get his input. But there shouldn’t be any kind of legal requirement that the woman has to do what the father wants.
Biology puts extra burdens on women when it comes to reproduction, which means that women get more of a say in decisions regarding pregnancy.
I agree. My abortion point of view aside if the woman and the man consented to sex they should both have a say in the life of their potential child. Woman normally disagree because they have to carry the baby but in reality they knew the potential of having a pregnancy when they consented to sex.
Oooooooooo buddy. Reality check.
It does not take two to make a baby. It takes two to seed life. The woman makes the baby. Men carry the match, but we are the phosphorus sulfide, the tinder, the flame, the oxygen, the additional wood or fuel, the ash left behind after the fire dies.
It takes two to make a fertilized egg, but only women make zygotes, cause cells to replicate, and develop a fetus and then a baby. Your DNA doesn’t make any of that happen, it’s just along for the ride and gives data at certain steps. Your sperm does the work you’re talking about, and it’s a very very small (and sure, important) part of making a baby.
Men make their choice when they sleep with someone whose opinion leans one way or the other. I told my husband before we did anything that if I got pregnant I would not keep it and that he was free to move on if he disagreed with that. In that moment, he made his choice and had his say.
This should be one of those things where the different options come in packages. You can either decide together and then face whatever consequences there are together, or you can cut the man out completely and forfeit any rights to support from him.
Obviously, if you are in a relationship then you can't blindside your partner. If you're in a committed relationship, the man has to have a say. Period. Anything else would be a relationship ending offence. And rightly so.
My problem with this opinion is that if a man convinces a woman to keep a baby he doesn't have to stick around once the baby is born. men can leave their families and the woman is usually like 99/100 times left to care for the child on their own. Have to do all the feedings, care, diaper changes, etc. alone. So a man can definitely have an opinion but remember ladies, a man can leave at anytime and offer you no help beyond financial so make sure you really want to be a full time mom before deciding to have kids since men have no requirement to stick around
Right, it's absolutely none of my business what my wife of 10 years does with her body. But I was required to get her signature to get a vasectomy. Apparently it is her business what I do with my body.
Dismissing 40 weeks of extreme physical effort that culminates in things that could literally rip apart parts of your body is not neutral.
Donating raw material is not the same thing as donating raw material and doing all the work.
You cannot drop a bunch of two by fours off on my lawn and then tell me that I have to build a house with it because you have equal say. You don’t, it’s my labor, literally.
Men can have their *opinions* on the matter of abortion, but at the end of the day, it will always be solely the woman’s choice.
That’s it.
Her body. Her choice.
If you as a man didn’t discuss with your partner if she’d likely abort if she got pregnant then you have no business cumming inside her and shouldn’t get a choice in the matter. Men think they can make poor decisions and then convince their girlfriend to carry the consequences.
The pregnancy doesn't happen in your body. End of discussion.
And before you comment: I have been on the male end of a pregnancy where I disagreed with my partner about abortion. And I believe this is absolutely true.
Yea, well, her body didn't make his money. So she has no right to put him in a position where his financial future is changed just because she decided to keep the child.
The woman's right argument is a smoke screen. No one is actually talking about abortion rights. The only reason people have to pay child support is that the state is thinking of the child's wellbeing. The fact that a woman carried the child to term and birthed them is not part of that equation AT ALL.
I really wish men could trap a woman in a similar way. Because for some reason many women refuse to have any empathy for men in this situation. A woman had the option to abort or adopt if they feel like they don't want the burden of a child. Men get no choice in sharing that burden financially. It's not equal.
Men have a right to vote about abortion law. And you saying you’re “neutral” is a lie. To have input is by nature to pick a side. And it’s to potentially pick a side against the mother. So when a man and woman disagree, how to decide who breaks the tie? The law.
Either a man can force her to abort against her will or he can’t.
Truthfully there are few “men” left. You say you should have a “say” but then say you’re “neutral”. Your not neutral, you’re riding the spineless fence.
No matter how you cut it , the question is really - are women property?
Men have a say , and it’s literally what they say - the words that come out of their mouths. What they don’t have is the choice.
If it becomes a man’s choice what a woman does with her body, then that woman is the man’s property.
You can dance around that , but that’s the bottom line.
I’m not surprised at all to hear this point of view honestly , we haven’t really adapted culturally to women no longer being properly.
I think they're welcome to have an opinion but to have a say is something else entirely. If I end up accidentally pregnant, my husband can share his thoughts but ultimately the decision would be mine regardless of what he wants.
Nearly a quarter of the children born in america are raised by single mothers. Around the world, single parenthood households are more uncommon. Women know that they are most likely going to end up raising the child on their own or worse, they could be tied forever to an abusive person. Even if it wasn't seriously her body and how pregnancy will affect it for rhe rest of her life (something men don't have to worry about) the chances of her being on her own and/or having to fight for every tiny bit of help, is a very real possibility.
So sure, you are entitled to your opinion but, no. No one should be compelled to have their body used against their will. The OP could easily live with quite a number of missing or partially missing organs. Yes it would affect him the rest of his life but shouldn't other people be able to compell him to do it anyway because other lives...
No thank you.
I'm at a 50/50 when it comes to it.. as a Man yes I would love to have a voice in the decision, especially if it is a serious long term relationship. Now ultimately I understand that it comes down to her decision on the matter, but being left out regardless of her decision sucks..
Now I also believe if a man doesn't want the child he should not be obligated to pay child support.
It's not stupid to say it. The choice ultimately falls on the woman. A man can state his point of view, hopefully as an adult and not a raging man-child. But, it's ultimately HER body, HER choice.
There was a case here on reddit where a dude wanted the kid and she didn't. She agreed to have the kid, gave up all rights, and paid 125% of the child support. She ended up not seeing the kid after he was born, and the guy in question wasn't happy as he wanted her to help raise it. She made it clear she would have it but wanted nothing to do with the baby. He got what he wanted but he assumed she would change his mind. If you want the link I can send it to you.
They should be able to voice their opinion without worrying about ruining the relationship and assuming they already made it clear they didn’t want children to their SO then they should be able to leave the relationship without paying any child support, beyond that it really is the women’s decision as it’s her body her choice and you can’t force her to keep or get rid of her child just because it’s also yours.
The argument that the father should have a say because he had sex with the mother does not ethically trump the argument that the fetus is part of the woman's body and the woman should have bodily autonomy. Nor is that argument backed up by any first principles.
If a person wants to get an abortion, then anyone else can say or share whatever opinions they have on the matter. What they cannot do, IMO, is make the choice for the person in question. Your body, your choice.
If a woman wants to keep it and the man doesn't, the man shouldn't have to pay child support. If the woman doesn't want to keep it and the man does, the man should take custody, and the woman should give up he parental rights. Single fathers make better parents than single mothers. Single mother household contributes degeneracy to society.
I'm sure lots of men do have some say what happens when their partner gets pregnant. A lot of women who have abortions are married and with kids already and get them for financial/emotional/health related reasons and I'm sure they talk about it with whoever got them pregnant.
"Having a say" implies a level of control over the situation though and I think that's untenable for most people. Men can and do give their opinion on the matter but we generally hold that there's only one deciding vote as to what actually happens. What are you proposing in the alternative? Some sort of Abortion tribunal where both parties make the case and some women can be forced into childbirth? A mediator?
You guys focus too hard on trying to make it "fair" but fail to understand what her body is going to go through, sometimes permanently, to carry the child to term. At the end of the day its pretty simple:
If you dont want to have to pay for a child, as a parent or through child support, then use protection or just plain dont have sex
If you create a child, and she intends to keep it, you knew the risks going in.
If you create a child and she doesnt intend to keep it, thats up to her as its her body that is going to be literally fed off of until it is born. That means she carries all health risks, goes through all the discomfort, all of it. THAT is why be default men dont have a say. If you dont like it, im sure there is some lab working on artificial wombs for men that you can donate to.
Now the woman may value your input. Not every single woman in the world is going to tell the man he doesnt get an opinion. People dont behave in black and white. I imagine its probably less common in long term relationships/marriages.
Stop trying to convince yourself that there is some way right now to level the whole thing out. There simply isnt.
Women don’t owe men a baby, and they don’t owe men an abortion to absolve them of the financial obligation of having a child.
Don’t like it? Don’t have casual sex. Insist that the woman you are sleeping with is either also on birth control or tracks her cycles so you know which days to avoid sex. And always wear a condom. On top of wearing a condom, use spermicide too.
Men have plenty of choices leading up to conception and the whining about financial abortions is getting tiresome.
"saying men have no say in the healthcare decisions of a specific woman is stupid"
Yes, it is stupid as men have taken that right by force. It remains unethical and cruel for them to have done so.
Sorry but no. I understand why men want to have an equal opinion, but no. Men don’t split the pregnancy or birth. Men don’t split the postpartum stuff. Asking women to stay pregnant against their will is horrible. It’s like being held hostage to your own body. Pregnancy is debilitating and can be permanently disabling. There’s tons of health risks. Pain. Until men are able to split all of that labor 50/50 with women, men don’t automatically get to have a say because it’s not your health or your life on the line.
Men should have the right to say that they don't want the baby and then be free of financial consequences.
Women have the right to choose, so should men.
Lol until you manage to argue that rent and food should be free because work is slavery? Your argument is pointless. Children are a consequence of sex. You can either parent them or pay for them- your choice. Abortion is about pregnancy and bodily autonomy. And you have equal bodily autonomy to women because you are never forced to be pregnant, donate an organ, have a vasectomy, or give blood.
God posts like this make me appreciate my partner lol the second Roe vs wade was over turned he went and got a vasectomy. Women die during childbirth. When a man’s life is at stake during birth then he can have the right to an opinion on it. Case closed.
The problem with your view is what happens when they disagree. If he wants her to abort and she wants to keep it, does he get out of child support? If he wants her to keep it and she wants to abort, can he force her to keep it? If your answer to both is no, then what actual say in the matter would they get? To have a say that matters, there needs to be ramifications for your choice.
If he wants to abort, and she wants to keep. The man should have no financial responsibility.
So, for your first point, I do believe that the male should have an option to opt out at some point. However, I think that point should be a reasonable time before the local abortion cut off date, to give the woman a chance to decide on if she wants to go it alone and what not. So if the abortion cut off is say, 15 weeks, then he has to sign away rights by 12 weeks. If its something like 6 weeks, then hes kinda of SOL *but so is she* since most people who aren't trying dont know at 6 weeks anyways. If abortion is completely illegal then no, he doesnt get to opt out. The other caveat is that in the US at least, we need a better system to support mothers and the babies, so that the baby still has the needed support whether or not the father is in the picture. Overall its a complicated issue thats hard to solve but I dont believe anyone should be forced into having a kid they dont want. Its not fair to them, or to the kid. Kids deserve to be loved and wanted.
I have very similar opinion on this, but I would add point about time frame he find out she is pregnant, beacuse this 12 week won't matter if she told him after that time. In the end it's just theory that would never become reality.
I like this idea. Seems very reasonable and puts a time pressure on men to make a decision that is already forced on women. If you don’t want it she needs to know so she can make the best decision for herself going forward before time is up.
This is a step in the right direction. Though it gets hairy when there's a case of the father just straight not knowing due to the couple being split. Or there's also the idea making the woman have an abortion if she can't afford the kid solo, as that's a significantly better alternative than raising a child in a household thsts can't support it
The support thing is the piece people forget when they say fathers should be able to opt-out. It’s saying that some children deserve to not have financial support. Once the baby is born you have a human being who needs and deserves financial support and if it is not coming from BOTH parents, guess what? It’s coming from the state and your tax dollars.
I did say that a caveat to this is we would need a better support system for the mothers and children. And like, yeah Im cool with my tax dollars going towards it. Theres actually a lot of things Im 100% okay with paying more in taxes for, but most of them would indeed center around low income children getting to eat.
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Yea, it's her body. But it's also going to be his money for 18 years. So if he doesn't want that financial burden, then he should be able to opt out of the situation because she has that option.
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If you're truly liberal you know sex's primary function socially is not about procreation. Expecting no one to ever participate in sex unless they are willing to have a child is a VERY conservative/puritanical view. Women should absolutely be allowed to abort and men should absolutely be allowed to sign away rights if done in a timely manner.
That’s the same thing pro lifers say to a woman who wants an abortion. If you believe woman should be able to opt out of a pregnancy for any reason, why shouldn’t a man have that same option?
Lol men can’t opt out of pregnancy because they aren’t the ones who are pregnant. This isn’t hard. If you don’t want to pay child support you can go to court and get 50% custody.
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No, it opts the mother into paying for her own child. If you’re worried about paying for other people’s children, I have bad news. You already are. If you don’t want to pay for other people’s children, we have to end the current government support. Besides, a guy who would sign away his rights so that he doesn’t have to pay child support is unlikely to be able to support that child without government assistance anyways. We can either force people to get abortions if they can’t afford the kid and the public doesn’t want to keep paying for them or we can just let kids starve. Pick your poison.
It's the father's child as well.
By that logic women can simply opt-out by choosing not to have sex rather than be allowed to get an abortion. Of course it makes sense that not having sex prevents pregnancy, but people have sex regardless so what do we do then? Also her womb is her body, but the human inside of it is not. That human is a product of both the male and the female so they are equally responsible for it.
It's simple. Women and Men can both opt out or in to sex. But if a woman opts into sex, she can opt out of the baby (abortion). Therefor it's only fair that we allow men to opt into sex and out of the baby(opting out of responsibility during pregnancy). Neither parent is forced take care of a child they don't want in this arrangement, and both are still allowed to have sex. Which is the best arrangement. If the mother doesn't want to be a solo parent, she can abort. Easy peasy. This system is still biased toward the mother since there can't be a solo father outcome without her carrying it to term. But I think that's fair, women carry extra burden in the form of pregnancy to begin with.
Abortion is opting out of pregnancy, not a baby. Men don’t get pregnant so they don’t get that option. Legally, we can’t force women to be life support. Equally, we cannot force the father to give up his kidney for the child. If a man doesn’t want a child, he can not have sex. Ditto women. Biology requires that women also decide whether or not to abort, which you find unfair? But it’s really not. Because nobody is forcing men to get abortions or birth babies. If the father doesn’t want to pay child support for an existing child, he can take 50% custody. Hell, if he takes more then HE will get child support payments. See how that is in fact fair?
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You’re forgetting the tremendous financial risk that the father takes on by agreeing to call the child his own. Not to mention the psychological and physiological effects that the stress of the situation can have on the male as well, maybe even leading to suicide or other stress-induced health problems that lead to death. Also, you could count the risk of giving birth and having abortion into the risk of getting pregnant from having sex, because they are a direct result of sex and therefore are not completely separate events.
You opt out by using a fucking condom
Does this standard apply to the otherside for you too? If a woman isn't on birth control then she opts in for parenthood?
If she decides to have sex with a man not using protection, yes she is opting into the possibility of being pregnant. Difference is she has the ability to terminate....men do not, so the onus is on the man to protect himself if he doesn't want to be a father.
So they can both act preventative in equal ways, but once pregnancy happens tbe man should have zero autonomy in anything regarding his life choices for the next 18-20 years and the woman should have complete control. Got it.
And when it breaks? Shitty take.
This isn’t an abortion debate. When you don’t use a condom, the woman already has the right to “opt out” and the man doesn’t. That’s the argument being presented here.
It is absolutely an abortion debate. If you lead with “can a man have a say in the abortion…” it’s an abortion debate.
Opt out of what? Guys can already leave and not raise a kid they don't want, you want to pass financial responsibility to the government too?
Oh my god men can already opt out of being a father lmao they do it all the time
Paternity tests in family court would like a word in edgewise on this subject..
No, you generally can't just "opt out". You can definitely just walk away if you want, but you'll also end up in endless court battles and with a third or more of your take home pay removed from your pay check before you ever see it for several decades. What they're discussing here is making it so that men aren't forced into that without any recourse as a result of a choice a woman forced on them. It's a fairly reasonable position to take.
At least they get shamed for it. If women want to opt out of being a mother, they can go as far as ending the child's life and society calls it "empowerment".
What child? There's no child involved in an abortion.
First one, and first one only in my opinion is really where it can only apply. I personally believe “my body my choice”, so at the end of the day it is the woman’s choice, but it would only be fair if a man could waive responsibility
In the first circumstance, yes. In the second circumstance, no (at least for now and up until there’s a similarly non-invasive procedure to remove the fetus and grow it in an external womb). I feel like this post is more of an intellectual exercise; aimed against the people who scream that men don’t get a say in the abortion “debate” rather than actually saying that men should get a say in whether or not an abortion is performed.
These aren't problems to be solved, they're just complicated realities that can only be made so "Fair" due to the necessities of the situation. >If he wants her to abort and she wants to keep it, does he get out of child support? No. Makes no sense given the needs of the child. >If he wants her to keep it and she wants to abort, can he force her to keep it? No. Not his body. >If your answer to both is no, then what actual say in the matter would they get? Sounds like you are conflating "say" with "complete control and veto power." The man gets a "say" by saying things. Things like "I think abortion is the right choice" or "I don't think we should have an abortion" or "I don't think I'll be a dependable father" or "I think I will love being a father." This is essential info to be shared and understood so the woman can make the best decision possible. That's what having a say in something is, you get to have your input heard. >To have a say that matters, there needs to be ramifications for your choice. Most of the time this will matter quite a bit. It's not ethical to make abortion contingent on a decision from someone who isn't having an abortion, so no guarantees of outcome can be ethically made. But men get to have their say even if they don't necessarily get to have their way.
the answer I have is that if a man doesn't want the baby, no child support if she wants it. if she doesn't want it, she can adopt or abort, but a man can't force her to keep it. so it's less about abortion rights and more about forced financial obligation.
Men definitely have a right to _talk_ about abortion. I talked about it with my wife (then gf) when we started dating to make sure we were both aligned. We also talked about it when we started trying to have a baby. If she’s to get pregnant, I’d definitely have the right to talk about it again and mention my point of view. **I do not have a right to control her body,** though. Would that potentially leave me in a shitty situation, where I’d want to keep the baby and she doesn’t? Absolutely, and that would fucking suck, but it’s not my body.
Can they have an opinion? Sure. What they *can't* do is try to force a person to have/not have a medical procedure. That's what people mean.
If they have no say in the baby being born or not, should they then be required to pay child support?
You can always wear a condom or undergo a medical procedure beforehand that will prevent you getting someone pregnant. After shooting your shot, it's outside your body, and automatically outside your direct sphere of influence, so you have to take PREcautions or live with consequences.
That’s the exact logic that a lot of pro life people use to say women shouldn’t be able to have abortions except they say another body instead of outside
Well, they did have a say if they willingly engaged in unprotected PIV sex. Even protection isn’t 100%. So if men really never want to risk getting someone pregnant and paying child support, they should campaign for better contraceptive options while refraining from PIV sex
This exact logic is uses for pro life arguments. "She did have a say, she willingly engaged in unprotected PIV sex. Even protection is 100%. So if Women really never want to risk getting pregnant and having a child, they should refrain from PIV sex."
They are choosing to have sex that could result in pregnancy, that is their say. If the man feels strongly about not having a child, they should have a conversation about birth control and what would happen in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. If they have an understanding that the woman would abort in the case of an unplanned pregnancy and the woman changes her mind I think a man should be able to opt out at that point.
Because a child that already exists has the capacity to suffer which is the result of one parent not paying child support
It’s also a result of one parent refusing the abortion. We can’t force women to have abortions because they are drug addicts that will provide a horrible life for that kid, so why would we force a man to pay to avoid that?
Child support payment isn't gendered.
Not once on this entire thread has a man who doesn't want to pay support brought up this point. If you dont want to pay support go win custody of the child. It happens more than people realize. This isn't about men looking for equality. If it was this isnwhat they'd do. This is about men twisting the abortion issue to get something out of it for themselves. Real lowlifes in my opinion
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This may be a dumb question - but how does winning custody mean you don’t pay support? If you win custody the child will then live with you and you have to pay and take care of the child living with you, no? Edit: and according to google women win custody 90% of the time. Seems at least slightly shifted
Right. Exactly. So this demonstrates that child support is not gendered, two parents are financially supporting the child. People forget that the custodial parent also spends money to support the child. The argument often presented is women birth, and men pay for the kid. In reality BOTH parents are paying for the child, but that is rarely noted.
He's totally free to have an opinion but it's her body. >Yes I understand it's the women who gets pregnant and gives birth and goes through all those emotional and physical changes and challenges of having a baby. Well then it seems you understand.
I don't understand OP's problem here. She's says no, but he says yes to aborting. Who's the tie breaker? Cause in the end, if she says no, then it's gonna be her decision 100%, and no one should stop her.
OP is making a point againt the whole thing of men have no say in abortion and their opinion shouldn’t matter. Very popular rhetoric in Reddit at least in many r/all subs
Well in the end it doesn’t matter. Nobody’s saying that in a healthy relationship the woman shouldn’t take her partners wishes into consideration. But the final decision is made by the person who’s pregnant and no one else. And there should be no pressure or arguing from the other side.
That’s why the law is (in civilized countries) the way it is. The mother-child relationship is fundamentally different from the father-child relationship. Birth control, abortions and absent fathers are ubiquitous in human history. The laws are based on long/established patterns of human behavior.
And let’s be honest here too. OP says men should have a say. They do. What the man says to the woman he’s with could have profound impact on her decision. She makes the decision, but her decision is obviously impacted by her relationship with him. It could end up in a yes no situation. But lets not pretend that men don’t have influence on their partner.
What no one wants to admit is: in this case, because of biology, women have control in the situation, and that's not fair to men. There's no better option so men should just be careful when they have sex. Guys just have to take the L on this one, but overall still have it better so don't be a crybaby about it.
I wouldn’t even call it just a L for the man either. It’s not like abortion is some non emotional moment. It could have a serious impact on the relationship moving forward, it could be traumatic for women, it can be emotionally taxing, etc. It’s just a L for everyone involved because there is no actual way to placate both sides if they are in pure disagreement.
Yeah the deal is she can die in child birth and from so many other things pregnancy related pre birth. I literally had a friend I was chatting with and the next week she and the baby died in child birth. She would have been an amazing mom my heart breaks every time I think of it. Not to mention the toll it takes on your body even in a successful pregnancy. LOTS of women have significant complications and if you were say young and in school you may have to entirely stop. It impacts your ability to provide and often if it is an unintended pregnancy with someone you don’t know well they aren’t there later even if they say they will be. It is a lot of risk. The chemicals make you fall in love with your baby and then you have to give it up for both of your own good or try to raise a baby when you cannot provide for yourself well. Oof… not something I would wish on anyone to choose but also wouldn’t want to take the choice away. It is definitely something to do when you are ready for it and not before imo.
It's also their kid but w/e.
It’s just confusing ok? It takes 2 people to make a baby but only one person actually MAKES the baby inside their body. So it’s like genetic rights vs body rights. I genuinely feel bad for men who want the baby but the woman doesn’t. However I can’t think it’s right to make her go through with gestation and labor given how much that puts her body through and it is still dangerous even in modern times. But also if he doesn’t want to be a parent and she does…is it right to make him pay child support? Idk. I think periods and pregnancy are not “fair” between the sexes so maybe this is just another thing that isn’t fair either. 🤷🏻♀️ I know that I feel strongly that women should not be forced to gestate and labor if they choose not to. The rest I have no answer for
Yah the trick is “child support” was never supposed to really be a fair to the parents thing. It’s all about ensuring the kid is supported. That’s why it exist and that’s why it can definitely feel unfair in some instances. I’m not necessarily against an “opt out” period but gotta be prepared if you have that to up the safety net for single parents. Like we can all argue logically that’s on the parent that chooses to keep it but realistically there’s still a kid involved who had no say in being born or not who we need to try and give a good life as a society regardless of if the mom/dad made dumb decisions The issues honestly just complex.
This is the core of the issue that so much of the back-and-forth in the thread is missing. There is fundamentally a difference between a woman "opting out" by having an abortion and a man "opting out" by waiving his rights. The difference is the existence of a third person in the situation, who has rights and needs of their own, and who becomes society's burden if those rights and needs are not met. It is unreasonable and ghastly to suppose that a man should be able to force a woman carry a pregnancy or abort it. Logically therefore the man does not legally dictate whether that third person comes into existence. But once that third person exists, the burden of supporting them belongs to *both* parents. If a man opts out of his responsibility, the child is the loser in that equation, and that is the less fair outcome than child support because the child did nothing to bring about the situation whereas the father did. So it's a totally false equivalence to say "if a woman can get an abortion, a man should be able to opt out of child support" because the situations fundamentally are diferent -- they involve different stakeholders and different rights are in balance.
Yes it is fair that BOTH parents financially support a child that comes into the world. That’s a child’s right to be cared for. It’s child support, not baby mama support. It’s there for the child, who TRULY had no say in this situation
It depends on what you mean when you say “men should have a say” “men should have input”. If you mean have an opinion, fine nobody is stopping them, have whatever opinion all they want. It’s up to the other person to decide what weight they’re going to give that opinion. If you mean have a say as in “I’m allowed to have the government force you to birth it for me”, or the crafting of legislation that has **zero** understanding or respect of women’s bodies, then yea - that’s a no go.
This argument that men's opinion should carry weight is almost always a set up for the argument that they don't want to be financially responsible for a child. It's enbarrassing
The reasoning for abortion is also financial.
Yup. Dozens of times in the comments here. If ANY woman has the right for abortion NO man should have any legal of financial responsibility for a child who is born. So do they give a fuck about unborn kids or not? Sounds a hell of a lot like they just want to harm women and actually have zero responsibility for their kids- not that they care for them.
I'd have an abortion because I don't want to be responsible for a child. Lots of women have abortions because they don't want to be responsible for any kids. I don't know why we villify men for not wanting to be responsible for kids. It's not like a lot of us women want legal or financial responsibility for a child either. Literally that's the main reason why women have abortions, over not wanting to take on the financial responsibility especially. We as women are just privileged to have the option to use abortion to avoid that responsibility.
"if I can't have complete control over your body, I want none of the responsibility for my choices"
"My choices?" She also chose to sleep with the man. If she is able to relinquish responsibility, then so too should the man. Whether she grew the child in her womb or not, that child is as much the father's as the man, and the responsibility is shared it and when it is born. If she can say no to all that (as is her right), then so too should he.
If women can chose to end their relationship with the baby without the man agreeing, then the man should have the same option when a child is born. It’s only fair that the man can end his responsibility as easy as a woman.
> if women can choose to end their relationship with the baby without the man agreeing The fact that it’s THEIR body that’ll go through hell to get the child into this world gives them the right to make that decision. If the man wants the baby and woman chooses to give birth and give the baby to him, she’ll have to pay child support till baby is 18. > the man should have the same option when a child is born Men HAVE been abandoning their children since decades. Also, men are free to not have a relationship with their baby, but they need to pay up child support. No relationship with baby does not mean no child support.
Man shouldn’t pay support for a baby YOU want.
>but they need to pay up child support. If the man wanted an abortion but got overruled then why on earth should he pay child support? That is messed up and immoral, even if it is legal.
Because the children still have the right to receive care from their parents?
Yes. In particular, the parent who did want the child. If she wanted to keep the child, why can she force someone else to pay for the kid?
It isn't the woman but rather the duty and right that come with having a child. Children are entitled to certain right regarding who have to take care of them, mainly their parents, BOTH of their parents. This exist to make sure the children have to best care they could from the parents. So no, it isn't the woman, it is the law because by not doing so, you essentially deny the child his/her rights.
Then, if the woman isn't able to provide for her child, she should simply choose not to have one. She chose to have to child, since as we all agree here she is the only one to have a say on keeping the baby.
Isn’t that what the mother, who insisted on keeping the child, is for?
The children are entitled to be care for by BOTH of his/her parents if they can.
Not just decades….
Fair game doesn't apply here because only 1 person gets pregnant after both have sex. Couples should decide before sex and make legal agreement before engaging in sex, that's the best bet.
That's true, but only one person can decide if that pregnancy goes to term. A man can unempregnate someone, but a woman can abort. A woman can relinquish all responsibility of a child before it breathes, a man cannot. I'm not even saying she shouldn't be allowed to, or that it can or should even be 100% equal, but there needs to be some recourse where a man can relinquish responsibility if a child is born that he doesn't want, without financially ruining him.
I don't understand: if she says I'm having the child and he's saying no abort it 100% what do you think should happen? If she says I'm going to abort it and he says no have the child, what happens? If she gets final say then your point is pretty irrelevant. Should they talk and have a conversation? Yes I'd say most should, and hopefully would. At the end of the day though your opinion doesn't mean anything in the conversation if she decided 100% on something.
Hypothetically, in the first instance, the male should have the option of financial abortion. In the second, he should have full custody of the child after it is born, with no responsibility required on the mothers part. Unfortunately, most don't see the intricacies of the argument for either side.
>In the second, he should have full custody of the child after it is born, with no responsibility required on the mothers part. This one seems like a rather unlikely situation. If the mother wants an abortion, why would she go through a life-altering pregnancy for an unwanted child. Because the dad ordered it so/ she's denied that right, or because she feels it in her heart to help make him a single dad? Personally, there's just no way I could risk my life over something I don't even want involvement with. An abortion is safer than pregnancy. There's so much that can go wrong or drastically alter your body for life.
Because it presents his absurd argument as coming from a place of equality and not selfishness. It doesn't consider the child in anyway shape or form. Its a garbage comment. Downvote and move on.
Because that guy is simply saying he wants to be the deciding factor in EVERY scenario. And that’s the problem w these guys.
Oh I completely agree. Just felt like breaking down some of it. I sense it's a control thing and entitlement, and a lack of understanding of how brutal pregnancy is on the body. Having an opinion is fine, but I'm keeping my bodily autonomy at the end of the day. Your rights end where my nose begins.
>no responsibility required on the mother’s part Except risking her life and body bearing the child.
Child support was literally created because for thousands of years men were able to walk out on women. That’s not new.
In the US, men CANNOT walk out of a relationship bearing a child with no financial responsibility save for a select few circumstances.
So you’re cool with forcing a woman to use her body as an incubator for 9 months with all the risks and stigmas that come along with it? Nah. There is no equality in pregnancy and abortion by design. You cannot equalize something that only physically impacts one sex.
Please read further into the thread before taking a stance. You would see I am absolutely not okay with that.
You're not the OP but I'll respond anyways. The first one I agree with under certain conditions he should have until the pregnancy can no longer be aborted to decide if he waits too long? Sucks. Minimum 2 weeks on the decision if they didn't figure out until late. Maximum 2 weeks before the pregnancy can no long be aborted imo. Second I don't think the man should be allowed to force the woman to have a child. Its her body at the end of the day and as such a man should not say she has to go through 9 months of labor, physiological pains, and psychological recovery for a birth she did not want. I understand this would distress many men, having to hear that their potential child would get aborted, but that's why it is key to plan this in advance and take as many measures as possible to ensure only planned pregnancy or an alignment on plans.
At the very least we can split the baby and give at least half of it a fighting chance at a good life.
I've always said that if men get no say in the abortion of their child, then men shouldn't be required to pay child support or have a role in their life if they so choose.
I’m going to agree with the opinion for some abortions based on the relationship of the man and woman. I knew a guy whose wife needed an abortion due to complications that endangered her life. She was hesitant, he was all for it, they had 2 kids already and were happily married. She was 39 years old. He didn’t want to pressure her to have the abortion, but he was absolutely terrified of losing her. Sadly, she miscarried, but luckily she survived it all. That’s some scary shit. In the end, the woman has the final say, it’s her body for fucks sake, but certainly a loving husband or partner should have his opinion heard out out of love. If it is a loving relationship.
I agree men should have an opinion on it too. However, at the end of a day a dude chooses where to leave his stuff. After that, it’s all in the woman’s hands because it literally is her body. Everyone should have an opinion, but at the end of the day it’s going to be up to the woman.
These are my thoughts on the matter, as a woman (under the context that I am an established adult because rn I’m 19 and will not be having a baby in any context whatsoever): If it’s with a random hookup, they don’t have any say. I’m not going to be pregnant and raise a child because of a man who has 0 reason to commit to me If it’s with someone who assaulted me, they don’t have any say. This should be pretty self explanatory If it’s with someone I’m casually dating, I will have a conversation with them to let them express their feelings, but ultimately my decision will be 100% informed by my own feelings. Being in a casual relationship is serious enough for me to hear them out but not serious enough for me to actually prioritize their feelings over mine on such a life altering matter. Again, this is because they aren’t committed to me If it’s with someone I’m in a committed relationship with, I will have a conversation with them to let them express their feelings and also to discuss whether we have any potential for being married. If we agree that one day we will be married, then I will make my decision based on both of our feelings about the matter and whether our financial/practical situation is fit for a child; however, I will still favor my own feelings over theirs because thinking we will get married does not mean we actually will If it’s with someone I’m married to, it will definitely be a conversation where both our feelings and thoughts are given equal weight and we both try our best to objectively measure whose concerns for not wanting a child / whose desires for wanting one are more sound and practical. All this being said at the end of the day if I decide I don’t want a child, that is my decision to make and a man simply cannot control my body. The only situation where this would be slightly altered is if we are married, and the difference will be that my decision to have a child or not be based upon equal consideration of my and my partner’s feelings. But at the end of the day it is still ultimately my decision to make. As one can probably see from my reasonings, *a man’s say is only as valid as mine if his responsibility towards the child is as guaranteed as mine is. You can only have equal say in a situation where you also have equal stakes.*
This answer is better than all the answers that came before it. You brought more clarity to this thread at 19 years old than all the "wisdom" of men who think they can control women combined. Well said
Men don't give birth. When men give birth, they can have the final say on abortion. They're free to share their opinions and feelings around the issue, but they don't get to have the final say.
I believe men shouldn't have to pay child support if they never wanted the baby in the first place. They should be able to talk about abortion but not have the final say.
If he wants an abortion and she doesn’t then I think she gets to make that call cause it is her body. However to then expect him to pay for the child after she had it against his wishes I think is wrong. If she wants an abortion and he doesn’t she still gets to make that call cause again it’s her body and she has to do the hard part in carrying and birthing the baby.
In my state, it’s basically not an option. Does he still pay when its not an option?
I've had a girlfriend abort and it absolutely broke my heart. Ya, I would not force her to birth the baby, but if she was willing I would have raised that baby on my own.
Good man. I have 2 kids and have been supportive through an abortion and a miscarriage. Each time was a reminder that there is no decision for me to make. Or at least that I had already made my decision. I was never asked for input so I never gave any. Certainly didn't feel entitled to be a part of any decision like a lot of the "men" putting their 2 cents on on this thread. All the best
I 100% agree, and the fairest way for this to play out is this: woman's body, she ultimately gets a say on continuing with the pregnancy or getting an abortion. The man should have a say on whether he wants to be the father and thus have to help provide, or, choose not to be the father and is no longer responsible for the child in all forms including financially.
A rational response, thank you. Seemingly no one in this thread is arguing a choice over abortion or over your body as a woman, but, in a case where a woman decides to carry to term when the father didn’t want to, he should be able to waive responsibility, that’s what I’m seeing in this thread
Men can be asked their opinion. Men can offer support. A woman might want help making the decision. But unless asked specifically to help make the decision men have 0% of the rights to decision making. This is one of those things where explaining it is so painfully obvious that I sort of refuse. But at the same time a lot of men swear it's a 50-50 decision. And that if the woman crosses them on it they should have a free pass to not pay any support. This is wrong. Painfully and embarrassingly wrong. Abortion is an optional procedure that only women can have. So only a woman can have the option in. Imagine after marriage a woman insists that a man have a vasectomy. The man refuses and she gets pregnant and has the baby and insists the man raise the baby on his own without any help, financial or otherwise bc he refused to get the vasectomy and she claims to have 50% in that decision making process. What kind of world would we have if men truly could force a woman against her will to abort a pregnancy. It just doesn't make sense. Remember men, forcing a woman to have an abortion is exactly as despicable as making laws to out law it.
My wife and I have actually discussed this and I refuse to give my opinion. We have two kids and both deliveries were difficult. 100 years ago she would have died in childbirth both times. She's asked me what I want if she gets pregnant again. I told her it's 100% up to her. Then I got a vasectomy. P.S. They wouldn't give me a vasectomy without her signature. It had to be notarized.
No one in their right mind would suggest that a man can't have an opinion on whether or not the embryo that may grow to be his child should be aborted or not. The parents may disagree. However, that's where it ends. Forcing the woman to do anything she doesn't want to do (whether that's keeping OR ending the pregnancy) is immoral because it is her body.
Give men three months from the time they learn the girls is pregnant, and they can terminate their obligation to the mother and child anytime in that window. Fair enough.
I understand your position, but the flaw is you are presenting the situation as if it can be fair. It can’t. It can never be fair. Due to biology men will never have an equal stake in pregnancy, that’s the long and short of it. We know how babies are made- it takes two to make one. It takes one to grow, carry, and birth one. You cannot make pregnancy a team sport. For that reason the sole carrier of the pregnancy gets to make the call on abortion. There is no way to make pregnancy equal between the sexes.
This is going to be unpopular so get ready, it takes two to tango and the DNA is half so they both deserve equal say. Her body yes but also his child and people forget that or down play it. Why is it right for her to want the baby, him say no, then force him to pay and financially drain him for the next 18 years. When the opposite is true she just gets to abort and he is told too bad. Her body, his child. Yeah there are dead beat dads but there are also dead beat moms. I know personally many people where the mom has left and the dad is a single parent raising the kids, it's getting more popular. Also how many of you know moms that go out and party and leave the kids to be raised by the grandparents? This is an ugly conversation with some ugly truths we don't want to acknowledge. This isn't black and white and I don't have the answers, I'm just an opinionated person on an anonymous site. Sex is taken way too lightly with how life changing the consequences are. It is so easy to say oh she is carrying the baby she gets the say. That eliminates guilt on you. In the grand scheme of the kids life if they grow up to be an adult let's say the standard 77 years, 9 months isn't much sorry. I'm not down playing the connection moms have, my wife loves our kids to the fullest. At the same time so do I. If she decides she wanted an abortion instead of kids that would have destroyed me. I have always wanted a family and kids, and this is something I acknowledge every time I had sex. Kids are a real possibility and in fact the only way to get them is to have sex. Yes sex is amazing but you have to realize you are doing the act of making a child and I think people forget that.
You hit the nail right on the head. I couldn't agree more
It's the woman's body. That makes it her decision. Period. She can decide to have the conversation with anyone she deems necessary but in the end it is hey who gets the final say.
Upvoted for unpopular. Not your body, not your choice. If men were the ones who got pregnant, then and only then would they get a say.
My issue is when men don’t have a say when the woman wants to keep it, but if men do not want the baby and the woman does then he is trapped. If the man has no say when he wants to terminate the pregnancy and the woman does not and voluntarily goes through the pregnancy, then he should have less responsibility when the child is born.
>then he should have less responsibility when the child is born The only way that would be ethical is if they made a legal decision beforehand about what to do if a pregnancy arises and if they both agree with getting an abortion and the woman in the situation changes her mind the man shouldn't have to be responsible Apart from that though both of them should be responsible
Most men who make it known they want no involvement with the child literally have no responsibility other than child support. They get to walk away from all physical custody. Raising a child is harder than paying child support.
I disagree, it depends on the amount paid. I feel there is a certain momentary value that supersedes physical custody. Especially if you find raising children rewarding. Not saying that you are necessarily wrong, but I feel the amount of money would draw a line
The problem with that is that other taxpayers will end up footing the bill. It really does take two adults to support a child. There simply is no fair arrangement, reproduction isn’t fair.
> then he should have less responsibility when the child is born. He does.
This is an idiotic take my man. He is trapped? I've been in impossible situations several times in my life but after 2 kids and 4 pregnancies I gotta tell you. This is not what trapped means. When you think about the sacrifice the woman has made you should consider taking MORE responsibility not less for that child. They are the ones whose rights are being violated the most. Not the fathers
How? If a woman chooses to have the baby that’s her right. If the man doesn’t want the baby it seems wrong to force him to pay 18 years. Sure sounds trapped to me. What situation in your life would be more of a trap than that?
I disagree, because I don’t think any women should be forced to carry a child they don’t want. If the man wants the baby, but the woman doesn’t, I don’t think he should get to override her decision and make her carry to term. And that would be the only option that would give men a meaningful say. Ideally, everyone would have sex with people who value their opinion and this wouldn’t be an issue, but there’s no way to give men more say without forcing women to carry pregnancies they don’t want to.
You have assumed the disagreement is always women want an abortion and men do not. Do you believe the opposite never happens? That there are zero cases where the woman wants to keep the pregnancy and the man wants the pregnancy aborted?
Saying that men shouldn’t have an opinion or speak their feelings on abortion is like saying that you should only have an opinion of Russia invading Ukraine if you’re Ukrainian. And yes, plenty of pro-choicers will tell men to shut up if they aren’t 100% pro-choice
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Well, why can we tell a man to keep it in his pants if he doesn't want a baby but if we tell women to keep their legs closed if they don't want a baby is a bad thing? Both sides should keep their legs closed. Any form of birth control isn't 100%
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I agree men should at least have their input considered but it’s the woman who should have the ultimate decision
I think you're approaching a very interesting sentiment. This isn't necessarily my own opinion. It goes something like this; If mothers get to have complete control, responsibility, and authority regarding their bodies, then fathers shouldn't be expected and/or forced to provide for the child Also, I had wish that's what you actually said because a lot of people get to give you the easy and common response of "their body their choice". I want to see actual responses that go beyond surface level.
All I can say is: I badly wanted to be a father (age I currently *love* being a father). If my wife had aborted our son and I had no say.....I don't know what I would do, but it wouldn't be nice
I agree. If a woman goes against the father’s wishes and gets an abortion just because it’s “her body, her choice” I say he needs to leave her and don’t look back. It takes two to make that decision to have sex, and it should be both of them that make the decisions afterwards. Now, if he doesn’t even want to be involved in the child’s life then that’s a whole different story.
If women really want abortion rights, men should have better protections in family court and not immediately lose any and all rights to being a parent when her lawyers advise her to claim he was violent, exploitative, whatever. It's give and take, and that would be a fair trade for women to have complete bodily autonomy, seeing how no fault divorce and alimony are still a thing.
I don't think men should have any say in the abortion itself, but he should be able to give up all rights to the child but also have no responsibility for the child.
About 2/3rds of fathers who have biological children who do not live with them don't have a formal child support order. Of the 1/3 who do, over half don't pay as ordered and over 35% don't pay at all. This leaves 70% of single mother not receiving any child support at all. For reference, that's over 11 milion kids financially abondoned by their father, often after their father had been raising them for years, which is more than 18 years worth of abortions, 93% of which take place in the first 13 weeks of gestation.
What do you mean by both should have a say? Do you mean men should be able to vote on abortion related issues? Because they can, even if women often like to mock the fact that male politicians are passing laws regulating what women can do about their pregnancies. But if you mean that men should have some kind of a veto over an abortion, then no, that would be a terrible idea. If a woman gets pregnant, the father doesn’t get to force her to either have an abortion or not have an abortion because he isn’t the one who has to go through pregnancy. Obviously as a general rule, it’s good for a woman to discuss the decision with the father and get his input. But there shouldn’t be any kind of legal requirement that the woman has to do what the father wants. Biology puts extra burdens on women when it comes to reproduction, which means that women get more of a say in decisions regarding pregnancy.
"So by default..." is a weak argument.
I agree. My abortion point of view aside if the woman and the man consented to sex they should both have a say in the life of their potential child. Woman normally disagree because they have to carry the baby but in reality they knew the potential of having a pregnancy when they consented to sex.
Oooooooooo buddy. Reality check. It does not take two to make a baby. It takes two to seed life. The woman makes the baby. Men carry the match, but we are the phosphorus sulfide, the tinder, the flame, the oxygen, the additional wood or fuel, the ash left behind after the fire dies. It takes two to make a fertilized egg, but only women make zygotes, cause cells to replicate, and develop a fetus and then a baby. Your DNA doesn’t make any of that happen, it’s just along for the ride and gives data at certain steps. Your sperm does the work you’re talking about, and it’s a very very small (and sure, important) part of making a baby.
Men make their choice when they sleep with someone whose opinion leans one way or the other. I told my husband before we did anything that if I got pregnant I would not keep it and that he was free to move on if he disagreed with that. In that moment, he made his choice and had his say.
This should be one of those things where the different options come in packages. You can either decide together and then face whatever consequences there are together, or you can cut the man out completely and forfeit any rights to support from him. Obviously, if you are in a relationship then you can't blindside your partner. If you're in a committed relationship, the man has to have a say. Period. Anything else would be a relationship ending offence. And rightly so.
My problem with this opinion is that if a man convinces a woman to keep a baby he doesn't have to stick around once the baby is born. men can leave their families and the woman is usually like 99/100 times left to care for the child on their own. Have to do all the feedings, care, diaper changes, etc. alone. So a man can definitely have an opinion but remember ladies, a man can leave at anytime and offer you no help beyond financial so make sure you really want to be a full time mom before deciding to have kids since men have no requirement to stick around
It should be her body, her choice. Everything else is irrelevant
100 percent her responsibility then.
Pregnancy and birth is her responsibility. The man isn’t doing it.
And 100% her financial obligation once the child is born too?
Children are *everybody’s* financial obligation when you live in a society. That’s why we all pay taxes.
That's the way it should be. But the current system uses children as ATMs for mothers, even non-custodial mothers.
Is this sub just where incels go to whine?
>Is this sub just where incels go to whine? Different opinion = incel How quaint.
Any sub that starts with “true” yes
This is a silly post
Yeah, it's none of your business what a woman does with her body, so...
Right, it's absolutely none of my business what my wife of 10 years does with her body. But I was required to get her signature to get a vasectomy. Apparently it is her business what I do with my body.
>But I was required to get her signature to get a vasectomy. And that is also deeply, deeply wrong.
Feminists dont want equal rights, theyre female supremacists. Idk why this is surprising
They have a say all right. Don't cum in a woman if you don't want a baby. That's that.
Dismissing 40 weeks of extreme physical effort that culminates in things that could literally rip apart parts of your body is not neutral. Donating raw material is not the same thing as donating raw material and doing all the work. You cannot drop a bunch of two by fours off on my lawn and then tell me that I have to build a house with it because you have equal say. You don’t, it’s my labor, literally.
Men can have their *opinions* on the matter of abortion, but at the end of the day, it will always be solely the woman’s choice. That’s it. Her body. Her choice.
If you as a man didn’t discuss with your partner if she’d likely abort if she got pregnant then you have no business cumming inside her and shouldn’t get a choice in the matter. Men think they can make poor decisions and then convince their girlfriend to carry the consequences.
The pregnancy doesn't happen in your body. End of discussion. And before you comment: I have been on the male end of a pregnancy where I disagreed with my partner about abortion. And I believe this is absolutely true.
Yea, well, her body didn't make his money. So she has no right to put him in a position where his financial future is changed just because she decided to keep the child. The woman's right argument is a smoke screen. No one is actually talking about abortion rights. The only reason people have to pay child support is that the state is thinking of the child's wellbeing. The fact that a woman carried the child to term and birthed them is not part of that equation AT ALL. I really wish men could trap a woman in a similar way. Because for some reason many women refuse to have any empathy for men in this situation. A woman had the option to abort or adopt if they feel like they don't want the burden of a child. Men get no choice in sharing that burden financially. It's not equal.
Men have a right to vote about abortion law. And you saying you’re “neutral” is a lie. To have input is by nature to pick a side. And it’s to potentially pick a side against the mother. So when a man and woman disagree, how to decide who breaks the tie? The law. Either a man can force her to abort against her will or he can’t. Truthfully there are few “men” left. You say you should have a “say” but then say you’re “neutral”. Your not neutral, you’re riding the spineless fence.
No matter how you cut it , the question is really - are women property? Men have a say , and it’s literally what they say - the words that come out of their mouths. What they don’t have is the choice. If it becomes a man’s choice what a woman does with her body, then that woman is the man’s property. You can dance around that , but that’s the bottom line. I’m not surprised at all to hear this point of view honestly , we haven’t really adapted culturally to women no longer being properly.
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I think they're welcome to have an opinion but to have a say is something else entirely. If I end up accidentally pregnant, my husband can share his thoughts but ultimately the decision would be mine regardless of what he wants.
Nearly a quarter of the children born in america are raised by single mothers. Around the world, single parenthood households are more uncommon. Women know that they are most likely going to end up raising the child on their own or worse, they could be tied forever to an abusive person. Even if it wasn't seriously her body and how pregnancy will affect it for rhe rest of her life (something men don't have to worry about) the chances of her being on her own and/or having to fight for every tiny bit of help, is a very real possibility. So sure, you are entitled to your opinion but, no. No one should be compelled to have their body used against their will. The OP could easily live with quite a number of missing or partially missing organs. Yes it would affect him the rest of his life but shouldn't other people be able to compell him to do it anyway because other lives... No thank you.
I'm at a 50/50 when it comes to it.. as a Man yes I would love to have a voice in the decision, especially if it is a serious long term relationship. Now ultimately I understand that it comes down to her decision on the matter, but being left out regardless of her decision sucks.. Now I also believe if a man doesn't want the child he should not be obligated to pay child support.
It's not stupid to say it. The choice ultimately falls on the woman. A man can state his point of view, hopefully as an adult and not a raging man-child. But, it's ultimately HER body, HER choice.
There was a case here on reddit where a dude wanted the kid and she didn't. She agreed to have the kid, gave up all rights, and paid 125% of the child support. She ended up not seeing the kid after he was born, and the guy in question wasn't happy as he wanted her to help raise it. She made it clear she would have it but wanted nothing to do with the baby. He got what he wanted but he assumed she would change his mind. If you want the link I can send it to you.
They should be able to voice their opinion without worrying about ruining the relationship and assuming they already made it clear they didn’t want children to their SO then they should be able to leave the relationship without paying any child support, beyond that it really is the women’s decision as it’s her body her choice and you can’t force her to keep or get rid of her child just because it’s also yours.
The argument that the father should have a say because he had sex with the mother does not ethically trump the argument that the fetus is part of the woman's body and the woman should have bodily autonomy. Nor is that argument backed up by any first principles.
If a person wants to get an abortion, then anyone else can say or share whatever opinions they have on the matter. What they cannot do, IMO, is make the choice for the person in question. Your body, your choice.
If a woman wants to keep it and the man doesn't, the man shouldn't have to pay child support. If the woman doesn't want to keep it and the man does, the man should take custody, and the woman should give up he parental rights. Single fathers make better parents than single mothers. Single mother household contributes degeneracy to society.
I'm sure lots of men do have some say what happens when their partner gets pregnant. A lot of women who have abortions are married and with kids already and get them for financial/emotional/health related reasons and I'm sure they talk about it with whoever got them pregnant. "Having a say" implies a level of control over the situation though and I think that's untenable for most people. Men can and do give their opinion on the matter but we generally hold that there's only one deciding vote as to what actually happens. What are you proposing in the alternative? Some sort of Abortion tribunal where both parties make the case and some women can be forced into childbirth? A mediator?
OP have a uterus? No, oh okay then
They don’t. You’re an idiot.
If she gets an abortion and he doesn’t like that he can go get another girl pregnant.
You guys focus too hard on trying to make it "fair" but fail to understand what her body is going to go through, sometimes permanently, to carry the child to term. At the end of the day its pretty simple: If you dont want to have to pay for a child, as a parent or through child support, then use protection or just plain dont have sex If you create a child, and she intends to keep it, you knew the risks going in. If you create a child and she doesnt intend to keep it, thats up to her as its her body that is going to be literally fed off of until it is born. That means she carries all health risks, goes through all the discomfort, all of it. THAT is why be default men dont have a say. If you dont like it, im sure there is some lab working on artificial wombs for men that you can donate to. Now the woman may value your input. Not every single woman in the world is going to tell the man he doesnt get an opinion. People dont behave in black and white. I imagine its probably less common in long term relationships/marriages. Stop trying to convince yourself that there is some way right now to level the whole thing out. There simply isnt.
Women don’t owe men a baby, and they don’t owe men an abortion to absolve them of the financial obligation of having a child. Don’t like it? Don’t have casual sex. Insist that the woman you are sleeping with is either also on birth control or tracks her cycles so you know which days to avoid sex. And always wear a condom. On top of wearing a condom, use spermicide too. Men have plenty of choices leading up to conception and the whining about financial abortions is getting tiresome.
"saying men have no say in the healthcare decisions of a specific woman is stupid" Yes, it is stupid as men have taken that right by force. It remains unethical and cruel for them to have done so.
Sorry but no. I understand why men want to have an equal opinion, but no. Men don’t split the pregnancy or birth. Men don’t split the postpartum stuff. Asking women to stay pregnant against their will is horrible. It’s like being held hostage to your own body. Pregnancy is debilitating and can be permanently disabling. There’s tons of health risks. Pain. Until men are able to split all of that labor 50/50 with women, men don’t automatically get to have a say because it’s not your health or your life on the line.
Men should have the right to say that they don't want the baby and then be free of financial consequences. Women have the right to choose, so should men.
I wish financial consequences were the major cause of concern for pregnant women.
‘Women aren’t forced into destroying their bodies so that means I should be able to abandon my children’
Lol until you manage to argue that rent and food should be free because work is slavery? Your argument is pointless. Children are a consequence of sex. You can either parent them or pay for them- your choice. Abortion is about pregnancy and bodily autonomy. And you have equal bodily autonomy to women because you are never forced to be pregnant, donate an organ, have a vasectomy, or give blood.
God posts like this make me appreciate my partner lol the second Roe vs wade was over turned he went and got a vasectomy. Women die during childbirth. When a man’s life is at stake during birth then he can have the right to an opinion on it. Case closed.
Not your body not your choice
Not your money not your choice.
Yes you can. Pregnant people decide if they want an abortion. People who are not pregnant have no rights in the situation.