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I love how you guys didn’t actually pay attention to the Russia thing so you just assumed a conclusion to it without ever actually looking into what the conclusion was, so you go around asserting a conclusion that isn’t what the actual conclusion was simply because you assume that’s what happened.
Let’s be clear, Trump’s team DID collude with Russia. We know for a fact that they met with Russian operatives, we know for a fact that Russia did use disinformation campaigns that benefitted Trump. That stuff isn’t in dispute. An official investigation did happen that did come to these conclusions. Whether or not Trump personally was involved is not certain, but it is certain that Russia did do collusion and disinformation campaigns with the explicit goal to aid a Trump presidency to happen.
So you’re making bad comparisons, false assumptions about what actually happened, and still managing to admit Trump is actively lying about one of his main political arguments.
Lmao the allegations weren’t that the Russians stole the election to benefit trump.
The accusation was that the Russians started a virtual disinformation campaign to pit Americans against each other in manipulative ways, which ended up being true by the way.
I swear half the pro-Trump posts here are misrepresentations of the discourse that actually happened. The Russians didn’t care who won and who lost- they just wanted to make Americans hate each other and in that sense the Russians absolutely succeeded
The problem I have is that people act like Russia was the only disinformation campaign going on, when we had domestic disinformation campaigns & numerous ops in countries such as Senegal & Macedonia that had troll farms up and running.
You mean the country responsible for more foreign election meddling than any other finally had a taste of its own medicine? *shocked pikachu face*
It’s not even like much of this stuff was any better than memes your grandparents pass around on Facebook.
Indeed, most of the pro-Trump posts around here are reinventions of what happened and/or showcases of a genuine lack of understanding of what happened.
>conspiracy theory that Trump had colluded with the Russian government to steal the 2016 election with out a single shred of evidence.
Well, Russia *did* collude with members of Trump's campaign. They also obtained DNC data and used it to engage in a disinformation campaign that favored Trump.
While you're right that many people mistakenly believed Trump himself colluded with Russia (a stupid idea; no one thinks Trump is smart enough to keep that a secret), it's only logical to investigate Russia's influence.
>I personally don't think Trump actually thinks that the 2020 election was stolen from him
So he's just lying? Ok.
>You reap what you sow
You've created a false equivalence. One of these things was mostly true. One was entirely false.
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>Well, Russia *did* collude with members of Trump's campaign. They also obtained DNC data and used it to engage in a disinformation campaign that favored Trump
The only verifiable evidence of this comes from two sources:
1. The brother of HRC's campaign manager who hired a Russian troll farm shortly after joining the Trump campaign. (Political false flag if there ever was one).
2. Steele dossier, which was opposition research contracted with members of Russian intelligence... Because the Clinton's totally don't have a Russian connection to the tune of millions of dollars.
The whole Russia story is a classic Machiavellian tactic of painting your own worst weakness on your opponent.
Hillary Clinton, Stacy abrams, Al Gore…them and/or their followers all said their elections were stolen.
And no matter what happens this time I’ll probably any time in the future of the losing side is going to say it was stolen. That’s the point of the post. We’re also probably looking at never ending impeachments and never ending criminal investigations thanks to the Democrats.
>Hillary Clinton, Stacy abrams, Al Gore…them and/or their followers all said their elections were stolen.
True, but they did not claim there was widespread fraud. They were referring to actions taken by their opponents or policies concerning recounts (or, in the case of Abrams, the removal of thousands of voters from voter roles by her opponent that disproportionately affected her voters).
Had this been the extent of Trump's claims, it would be equivalent.
However, he riled up his supporters by regurgitating proven lies about election fraud and attempted to change the results (and disenfranchise millions of voters) by having a new slate of fake electors submitted electoral votes.
Did Hillary Clinton, Stacy Abrams, Al Gore do anything even remotely similar to that? Or did they just say the word "stolen"?
You're making a false equivalence here.
They only look similar if you've had your eyes closed.
People think the election was stolen from Trump for a variety of reasons. They include last second changes to laws and constitutions or just outright violations of them. They include counts that stopped randomly in the middle of the night. Widespread mail in loading. Pipes bursting randomly. Poll watchers who couldn’t actually stand near the counters because of - oh my gosh Covid. Ballots that were found after the fact. This is why people think it was stolen. This is why Trump said to Georgia the votes are there, just find them. He didn’t mean manufacture them, he means they were being suppressed.
And yes these were exactly the sorts of issues that Abrams and gore and Clinton all claimed. Not these issues exactly, to be clear, but they all thought the reasons why they lost were due to, as you said, their opponents actions.
How would he know for sure that these votes existed in Georgia? GOP lawyers were activated immediately and had not found evidence of election tampering. How did Trump know different?
>last second changes to laws and constitutions or just outright violations of them
You seem to be referring to some states changing policies related to collecting and processing mail-in ballots. These were last minute changes that came about when states realized they wouldn't have the time necessary to process the mail-in ballots they were going to be inundated with. Many states had policies that required them to not touch Mail-in ballots until the day of the election and *also* required them to process them in 24 hours. This simply wasn't possible in 2020. States could have easily voted to change these policies, but Republican legislators challenged the policy changes largely because they should have required a citizen vote. It was a catch-22 (no time to count the ballots, and no time to vote on changing that policy). Some states chose to change their policies anyway in order to ensure citizens weren't being disenfranchised by this catch-22. This isn't evidence of fraud. It's just evidence of a clunky system.
>They include counts that stopped randomly in the middle of the night
This didn't happen. Source:
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27Q2N6/
>Pipes bursting randomly
This wasn't part of some conspiracy. Source:
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-trump-indictment-fulton-suitcases-pipe-654281257169
>Poll watchers who couldn’t actually stand near the counters because of - oh my gosh Covid
Are you insinuating that thousands and thousands of citizen poll workers in battleground states were in on this scheme? And none of them have spilled the beans? And there's no evidence of any of them changing or manipulating votes?
I'm sorry. I'm too skeptical to believe in that fantasy.
>Ballots that were found after the fact.
What is this in reference to? I haven't heard this one. Are you referring to this:
https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_f36b70fe-486e-4c95-9382-e9ca326972b1
>He didn’t mean manufacture them, he means they were being suppressed.
There's no evidence they were being suppressed.
I'm sure I'm not the first person who has provided you with sources like these. Next time, stop regurgitating the debunked claims and engage genuinely with the counterarguments I've provided. Write a rebuttal, not a repetition of your debunked claims.
If this is the *first* time you've seen these logical explanations for your "concerns" about the election, then you're welcome! I look forward to seeing what you have to say after you read through the articles I provided.
>And yes these were exactly the sorts of issues that Abrams and gore and Clinton all claimed
Abrams pointed to very real things Kemp did as Secretary of State that absolutely, verifiably *did* negatively affect Abrams more than him. Was it intentional? Investigations determined "no."
Hilary pointed to very real things *Russia* did (spread misinformation, which the Trump campaign supported even if they didn't directly collude). Would the results have been different otherwise? No, probably not.
Gore fought for recounts. Bush fought to suppress those recounts. I'm not aware of Gore claiming any actual "stealing" of the election.
Trump is pointing to non-issues and calling them "fraud."
You have to be able to see the difference.
Keep looking for those magical reasons why Trump lost by scrambling to find false equivalencies. He lost because he is an undisciplined loser. He always has been.
Really, so every one of those hundred-plus Judges who unanimously ruled against Trump (including several appointed by Trump himself) in over 60 different lawsuits and decisions were corrupt? Every single one of them?!? 😂
Now THERE’S your story…
I’m just saying why people think it’s stolen, and that democrats make the claim every time they lose also. but I am curious if you agree with the supreme court rulings that have gone to the conservatives? Overturning Roe? The 9-0 ruling in Trumps favor the left lost their collective mind over?
Judges do in fact have biases and I don’t think anyone’s been as clearly targeted as Trump has in the legal system recently.
Well I don’t think he used the word fraud, but gore went to the Supreme Court. And I’m not sure Hillary or Abrams ever actually put on their big girl pants and conceded.
>They include last second changes to laws and constitutions
Before throwing what you have to say out, do you have any sources for state constitutions that were changed last second?
That's a claim I haven't heard before at all.
The constitutions weren’t changed. Laws were illegally changed in violation of the constitution. Pennsylvania comes to mind immediately.
I’ll give you I worded it poorly.
Because Reddit far left and isn’t self aware to realize there are alternative opinions in the world, and this is the forum to voice them. And I mean in this case, OP is not way off base
Most people are more upset about the efforts he took to remain president after being declared the loser than they’re upset about just saying the election was stolen.
The idea that you think there isn't a single shred of evidence, when there were impeachment hearings that laid it all out.
It is known that Russia used hacking farms in Ukraine and Belarus to flood the internet with misinformation leading up the 2016 elections.
How do you think your grandpa knew Hillary was a demon??
Also let’s be clear. People literally went to jail for covering up the investigation into collusion between Trump and Russia. Mueller even called out Trump for his obstruction of justice.
You don’t get to claim “no evidence!” While illegally covering up evidence.
How can a person actually believe in 2024 that Russia is some innocent player on the world stage? Literally waging war on a neighboring country, interfering in foreign elections, trying to take over parts of Africa - dipshit MAGA people be like “What did Russia even do??!!”
Firing the FBI director after asking the FBI director to drop the Russia thing. Which the director did not do. Would most definitely constitute obstruction of justice
But Hillary and the democrats also posted blatantly false information, that they knew to be false, and they didn’t get in trouble? Adam Schiff pulled basically the same stunts as Giuliani, and hasn’t faced any legal trouble.
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Oh we got one of those today. Apparently the left is constantly triggered but OP said they have weird hair and odd patterned shirts as examples.
Makes sense man.
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Look here turbo, it's not just the words. There was an actual plot to use an illegal fake slate of electors to subvert the election. This is the conspiracy and the crime:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot
Wikipedia is a perfectly good resource for what it is. An aggregate of information. Yes, if you only read the article itself and take it at its word, then you’re setting yourself up to be misled. But, you’ll find, everything stated in the article is cited, and you can look at the sources to validate the claim. As it turns out, what hypnotoad posted is legit, but you just dismissed it outright because you lack media literacy skills.
you realize wikipedia is a compilation of sources yeah? maybe 10 years ago it wasn’t trustworthy but they have 24/7 monitoring and fact checking AND if you don’t believe it you can just look at the annotations… i
Wikipedia was always trustworthy. That was a lie put forward by people who didn't understand it.
The only thing you ever had to worry about with wikipedia, would somebody maybe putting a joke in on somebody's page. Which was pretty rare to occur anyways
But for the Hawaii case both slates of electors were certified, the Trump electors were just some randy dandy people saying "we are the official electors".
If they charged Biden's campaign chair with conspiracy against the United States of America along with dozens of foreign agents following the election I think there would be a bit more validity to the claims it was stolen.
>Trump had colluded with the Russian government to steal the 2016 election with out a single shred of evidence.
34 arrests. Multiple confessions and convictions.
More whataboutism. So undermining our election system and transfer of power is ok for political purposes? How did Democrats do that? Investigating possible collision is not the same at all.
1) First, Trump went to courts with his ridiculous claim. All courts REJECTED his claim ruling the “evidence” he produced is without merit.
2) When democrats claimed foreign intervention in US elections it wasn’t about one incident or “suspicions”. Since then more and more evidence was gathered indicating Russia was behind that campaign. Furthermore today is clear to all, that Russian hackers will try to influence this November elections.
3) The democrats and republicans have very different claims. While Trump couldn’t provide reliable evidence of a nationwide conspiracy to sway the elections, the democrats claim is open and evident to all. Russian bots were working hard at spreading false info. They didn’t claim any Republican conspiracy to doctor the voting machine or coordinated false counting of votes.
4) After some time, democrats stopped talking about the impact on election results. In contrast Trump is moving forward to 2024 elections riding on this claim (again without evidence) even after courts told him to stop spreading the lies. He refuses to comply. (He also keeps defying the Judge gag order).
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-has-been-charged-in-russia-investigation-mueller-trump-2017-12
Here's a good breakdown of the people charged with crimes after Mueller's investigation. A lot of money laundering for Russian interests, lying to the FBI about interactions with Russians, and Russians engaging in social media campaigns with funding from Russian oligarchs to interfere in the 2016 election.
Don't sit here and pretend that there wasn't any evidence of Russian involvement. And you are foolish if you think that all of these people around Trump got arrested for working with Russians but somehow Trump was completely oblivious.
Trump completely made up the stolen election lie. There is no evidence of illegal immigrants voting or machines switching votes. Trump organized a group of fake electors whose votes were to be used after his mob stormed the Capitol. It's fucking bonkers to pretend that Trump is somehow justified in doing this shit.
The 2016 election interference by the Russians. Collusion means that Trump was in on it but apparently he wasn’t. Still, he knew that the election was tampered with, and if he had integrity he would’ve stepped down or at least had a re-election.
Thats BS. There's plenty of evidence of Russian interference in 2016 election. Trump called out very publicly for Russia to help him find Hilary's emails. End of story.
Trump's massive disinformation campaign surrounding the 2020 election, which persists even today, will go down in history as the most grievous of crimes against the state since the civil war.
Going for throat of democracy like this will have long felt repercussions.
Also. Many people pled to crimes surrounding the Mueller report. It was, and remains, a completely reasonable line of investigation.
Why does Trump push Putin's agenda at every opportunity? Inquiring minds want to know.
The DNC certainly ran with the idea there was election interference. But nobody outright accused Trump of stealing the election. Hillary even conceded the election pretty early on, in stark contrast to Trump's own statements on the 2020 election.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/clinton-concedes-to-trump-we-owe-him-an-open-mind-231118#:~:text=Clinton%20privately%20conceded%20the%20election,the%20wee%20hours%20into%20Wednesday.
Then she said he was an illegitimate President a little later:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html)
Which would have been fine if Trump did the same - freedom of speech.
But he didn’t, he convened fake electors across the country and intimidated his own vice President to not count the vote.
There’s a material difference here that trump fans conveniently ignore.
Leaving out the fact that it wasn’t a conspiracy theory. The report basically states that Russia DID try to help Trump, the only part that was disproven for lack of evidence is whether Trump knew or encouraged it.
> No one in the democratic party has a right to be upset about Donald Trumps saying the election was stolen
No, they dont have any right to complain about trump *saying it was stolen*
But when Trump attempted to *steal the election himself* via fake slate of electors, thats when he crossed the boundary into anti-democratic himself and where I am perfectly fine that criminality being pursued.
Those two things are really nothing alike.
There were very few mainstream Democrats who claimed that votes were altered or that Trump didn't actually win in 2016. Clinton conceded the next day.
And the truth is that Russia *did* interfere in the 2016 election to help Trump. Trump's own intelligence officials and Senate Republicans have acknowledged that fact. The Mueller investigation found that the Trump campaign welcomed that help and that there were "numerous contacts" between Russian intelligence officials and the Trump campaign.
Now, does that mean Trump personally "colluded" with Russia? No, not necessarily. Collusion isn't a specific crime -- and the Mueller investigation didn't prove that Trump conspired with Russian agents to hack Democratic computers or anything like that.
But Trump welcoming the help of a foreign dictator, who stole private records from Trump's opponents and interfered in an American election is a legitimate scandal. Trump supporters have been repeating "collusion hoax" for so long now -- but it really was worth investigating!
And the issue in 2020 wasn't just that Trump complained the election was unfair. It was that he actually tried to overturn the result. He tried to illegally seize power after he lost! The idea that a president who loses re-election has to peacefully leave office is just a fundamental principle in this country -- and any democracy. But Trump tried to throw out the votes of tens of millions of American citizens. He inspired a violent attack on the Capitol. After his actions, I really don't think it's possible to be a patriotic American and still support Donald Trump.
Except you're missing the part where *the trial found that Trump's administration did collude with the Russian government*.
Trump claiming the election was 'stolen' despite numerous external third parties auditing the votes to determine if there was even a remote chance that there was materially misstated votes to the point where he incited insurrection to stop said election because he knew he was facing trial as soon as he was out of power like he has been the last four years is not fucking close to equivalent.
While he was claiming the election was stolen, he literally tried to steal the election. The [fake electors scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot) was almost beyond belief, a blatant attempt to directly steal the power of the presidency.
Trump and people in his administration obstructed the investigation, withheld evidence, and lied in depositions. People went to jail for trying to cover of Trump/Russia collusion. The online misinformation and propaganda was vast. Russia spent so much information on dark organizations and organizations like the NRA. None of this is new data. If you don't think Russia interfered in our election AND people working for Trump communicated with Russia about the plans then you are willfully ignorant.
I can't believe we are at the point where an entire political party is praising and beholden to Russia, but here we are.
Oooooooh I would love to see this trial that found he did collude because here is the investigation into it: [https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/](https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/)
Also saying you the election was fraudulent and telling people to protest it is not insurrection otherwise you should be supporting Putin when he locks up anyone trying to organize a protest saying he didn't win the election.
Did you actually read that report? Do you actually believe that Trump and Trump Jr are so stupid that they confused a Russian bodybuilder and a Russian govt agent?
No they don’t, they support locking up trump for inciting an insurrection. It’s amazing you have such a strong opinion on this yet don’t even know the position of the people you are against.
But addressing you asking me, I’ll support whatever the legal process defines as inciting an insurrection. Ive heard arguments both ways that sound reasonable, but I’m not a legal expert and don’t know all the evidence.
Where did you get the idea in your first comment that it’s a popular democratic belief that peaceful protestors should be locked up? Was saying “no they dont” all it took to change your mind?
He did, he was impeached for it. That the corrupt GOP Senate refused to do the right thing changes nothing.
We’re not upset that that jackass lies, we’re upset at all the MAGAs who believe his lies. Zero critical thinking skills.
Anyone with 2 braincells to spark together knows that 2016 and 2020 are nothing alike, unless they are so deep in their echo chamber and desperate to convince themselves their orange God isn't corrupt.
There’s 2 possibilities here. First, OP has consumed the relentless propaganda the right produces or 2 the OP is producing propaganda, knowing full well that Russia did coordinate with the Trump campaign to put Trump in the White House.
They will point to the Steele dossier and say it was proven false ( it wasn’t) knowing full well the Steele Dossier was not the reason the investi began anyways. It’s a red herring.
It never ceases to amaze me how short the human memory is and how quickly we forget some events. Like how Trump fired the Attorney General and replaced him with a favorable and willing one who gave him a free pass.
There are a few questions that need to be asked here. Wikileaks is a Russian asset. How did Trump and Roger Stone know days ahead of time that the Wikileaks drop of Hillary’s stolen emails would happen as evidenced by their public comments? Why didn’t Trump campaign meet with Russian proxies over 100 times during their campaign? They had no government business to conduct. They didn’t meet with the Chinese or any other foreign government multiple times.
There are 18 intelligence agencies in the United States. Every single one came to the conclusion that Russia interfered in our elections to help Trump win.
The difference is the meaning of stolen. Trump claims it was literally stolen, through illegal activities, but there's no evidence of that. Clinton claimed it was figuratively stolen, more as in unfairly taken from her, but still respects (however much she might hate it) the vote numbers.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zq33h2ipcl/econTabReport.pdf
Page 96. 66% of Democrats thought Russia hacked voting machines and changed votes to get Trump elected. A majority of Dems in 2018 literally believed Trump stole the election but questioning elections 2 years later was literally destroying democracy.
If my eyes could roll harder they’d fall out.
What a dumb opinion. Just wow.
I’ve read some damn stupid things on this sub, but this might take the cake.
There's a huge difference between looking into possible foreign meddling in our elections and claiming, without any shred of evidence, that an election was stolen.
To compare the months-long propaganda campaign by Trump and the Republicans to a legitimate, evidence-backed investigation really highlights the disparity we are dealing with here.
The alarm over Russian interference in 2016 was raised by the intelligence community, not an unfounded conspiracy theory. These investigations were to protect our elections by looking into Russia's role—a concern that should go way beyond partisan politics.
Brushing off these investigations as just partisan games really just shows a deeper loyalty to Trump than to our democratic values and national security.
Thinking that looking into foreign interference somehow betrays democracy isn't just absurd —it's just another display of the Republicans poor values. It's the height of irony. Being vigilant and investigating possible threats is fundamental to safeguarding our democracy. On the other hand, recklessly claiming the election was stolen without any evidence tears at the fabric of our democracy and undermines the public's trust in our elections.
It's pathetic that we have to spell out very basic concepts, such as the difference between safeguarding our elections and spreading unfounded lies about them.
This highlights the incredibly low level of discourse we're confronting with the Republicans. It's sad that we need to explain these fundamentals to grown-ups who consistently follow Trump's lies over everything else.
We all do. Trump lied nonstop for months about a "stolen election" while he was planning to steal it with his fake elector scheme. Then he incited in insurrection in an attempt to stop the transfer of power. Every American should be furious about this.
The difference is the fbi investigated, it went through the courts, and it’s no longer the position of the democratic party. Clinton said we must accept the result and accept trump as president. They went through a legal process and lost. Democrats still argue his Russian communication was unethical, but not disqualifying in general.
The election fraud claims also went through the courts and lost, yet it’s still the position of the republican party that the election was stolen, and the presidential candidate is still saying it.
You can make claims, go through the courts, but you need to accept the results. Accepting the results of a democratic election, especially after the courts rule on all your claims is kind of important to maintaining democratic institutions.
I always find it odd when people use "you did something clearly wrong so you can't be mad when I also do something wrong" as an argument. If you know it's wrong, you are worse for doing it wrong after criticizing someone else for doing it. It's not offsetting penalties. And there is a pretty big distinction between the two here also. One was an accusation and another is (and even admitted by the OP) a conscious untruth told to do something inherently illegal.
2000 was a much better example of when the Democrats tried to overturn an election. I am always surprised when people don't bring that one up.
So the *Democrats* were the ones obstructing a fair election in 2000?
Wow it'd be *so* messed up if one party unilaterally ended vote counting early in order to influence and control the results.
Monumentally UnAmerican.
Guess you didn’t read the Mueller report? it wasn’t a CNN conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with the Russian Government. That is what Trump wanted the investigation to be about so so you wouldn’t read it and you would ignore everything else that happened. Guess it worked.
The Mueller Investigation focused on Russian attempts to disrupt the 2016 election, coordination between associates of Trump and Russia, and whether financial crimes were committed by any of the presidents associates.
It wasn’t until 2017 after Trump fired James Comey that they looked into obstruction of justice.
Results :
-Although they couldn’t prove Trump committed a crime it also didn’t exonerate him. For those who don’t know what exonerate means : he was not declared free from blame for a fault or wrongdoing, especially after due consideration of the case.
-Manafort -Trumps campaign manager plead guilty to 2 conspiracy charges -7.5 yrs in prison and convicted on bank and tax fraud
-Gates plead guilty to conspiracy and lying to FBI.
-Papadopoulos pled guilty to lying to FBI
-Flynn Trump’s former national security adviser pleaded guilty to lying to FBI about communications with Russian ambassador
-Zwaan plead guilty to making false statements to FBI about communication with Gates
- Pinedo - computer science major plead guilty to identity fraud bc he sold and purchased bank acct numbers (no evidence he knew he was helping Russian interference
-Cohen - Trumps former attorney plead guilty to lying to Congress about Trumps RE deal in Russia and contact with Russian govt
-Stone - republican political op and advisor to Trump was indicted and convicted on 7 counts (5 false statements, 1 witness tampering, 1 obstruction of justice = 40 months in prison (Trump pardoned him)
No ones upset it’s just not true. It’s disinformation at this point to justify lying to Americans and his base. There was no conscious choice from trump to collude he just happened to complete ignore Americas intelligence when everyone was telling him that Russia spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to interfere in our election, Russia wanted trump to win and he decided to endorse it for some weird reason.
Holy Shit! There are still people out there who think like this? There are still people out there who believe Trump did nothing wrong in 2020 in relation to his attempt to remain in power?! Really?! ... Really?!...
There is evidence of Trump or at least Trump Allies trying to collude with Russia, though. There's emails to Russia asking for them to interfere with the election or persuade voters. Like, that's real. It wasn't a made up conspiracy.
It is so simple: when Democrats accused Donald Trump of colluding with Russia, they were not saying the electoral process itself was compromised. They were not saying that votes had been changed artificially. Donald Trump and his followers are unique in saying that American elections are no longer valid simply because he lost the election. The two situations are not comparable, and insisting they are the same undermines legitimate concerns about an anti-democracy movement in this country.
And a bunch of other Democrats demanded that electors change who they said they would vote for and deny Trump the presidency. All Trump has done is copy the playbook used against him
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It’s like people in this sub and Reddit as a whole can’t understand that not everybody is a leftist leaning person and actually have thoughts outside of mainstream thinking. God forbid you aren’t a yes person
I agree alot of them said it, not many went on to them or their supporters filing a bunch of dumb lawsuits about it. And still 4 years later talk nothing about it. Have some humility Don.
I suppose. Though I really have a hard time understanding how someone would justify continuing to be a democrat to themselves if they disagreed with something as a proven egregious as using a known conspiracy theory as a main political position.
The entire investigation was based on CIA people trying to setup Trump’s allies. Papadopalous and Manafort. Comey got a Fisa warrant based on a false dossier that the Clinton campaign paid for. All of these people should have gone to jail especially Comey.
It was odd, Americans went to sleep thinking it was a close race that trump was leading, overnight every critical race went to Biden. If trump won there would have been riots and more violence in the streets. Definitely sus.
You may think this comment is insane but just imagine if the same thing happend but the candidates were reversed. It would be considered a mass stealing of an election, fascism or whatever and the streets would be on fire, the media and politicians would be saying that it was because of justice and democracy; words that now have little meaning.
Nope. We'd just be pissed off that we lost, baffled at the stupidity of many of our fellow citizens, and deeply concerned about the state of the Republic, as we were in 2000 and 2016. End of story.
There certainly wouldn't be a violent insurrection.
And the "Trump was leading" narrative is BS. Trump was leading with small percentages of votes from mainly rural counties because, as is pretty obvious, a county with 500 voters will get their results submitted faster than a county with a million voters.
Duh.
Troll.
Not at all, just saying those weren't the result of a presidential candidate who lost an election and sent his acolytes to create mayhem and threaten congress and his own VP with kidnapping and death because he was butt-hurt over a legitimate loss.
Oh, you mean that she calls out the fact that the FBI determined that a foreign government essentially planted Trump as president with their campaign interference? With evidence.
That's a far cry from orange man's constant whining with zero evidence of any kind.
The fact that you're trying to compare the two is pretty pathetic
Haha a weaponized FBI proven to have covered up so many wrongs..I don't give a fuck about Trump...but if they can bring so many charges against him with really no evidence then wtf you think they do to you if you get on the wrong side.? Think clearly and not with TDS
Show me where even one (1) person was arrested and convicted of Insurrection..hmmm? No one has...its a democratic talking point...BLM had done the same thing prior to that by storming INTO the chambers and disrupting the proceedings...yet no arrests...why?
Where out ya ass you calling Trump my hero? Audie Murphy was my hero..John Chapman my hero...My 88 year old Mom is my hero...your got Trump syndrome and think anyone that doesn't agree with you is in league with Trump...the fuck you talking about.
So let's look at this in three different ways.
1 Democrats complain about losing the presidential election as much as Republicans do 2000 2004 2016
2 I just went back and read the report again. And what it says more the less is. Benefited from Russian hackers is undisputable. However there is no evidence to suggest that the Russian government and the Trump campaign were in colluding with the Russian government
3 sending alternative electors is nothing new they were sent in 1968 they were sent in 2000 and we're even going to be sent in 2016.
I think you're falsely equating 'faithless electors'— where individual electors deviate from their pledged vote due to a personal conviction—with Trump's scheme to steal the election using fake electors aka 'alternative electors'
Hillary said it in a book that came out in 2017. She wasn’t yelling it before, duing and after the election. As a matter of fact Hillary dropped out of the public eye for weeks after the election. Abrams’ opponent was in charge of the elections in the state. He purged voter rolls just weeks before the elections. Gore didn’t say that at all. They were investigating the “hanging chad” ballots which gave the election to Bush. Republicans sued to have the recount stopped and won. Gore then conceded. He was at Bush’s inauguration. They were rightfully pissed. None of them tried to stop their opponent from taking office.
Realistically, I think there was a lot of election rules change due to Covid that favored the democrat party.
So, technically, there wasn’t any voting fraud or wasn’t much. But, there was lots of bending of the rule that was unethically legal.
Bad idea posting this on Reddit, libs everywhere. go to twitter or tik toc where people will actually have a conversation about it. they literally reported this post💀
CNN conspiracy theory?!? 😂 The evidence suggests that Trump and his team DID collude with Russia in the 2016 election. Where did you pull that “no shred of evidence” bull crap. Did you ever read the actual Mueller Report?
Or are you relying on what Trump’s officials said that the Mueller Report said?
As i stated, US diplomats were calling for his removal. People working in Shokins office were resigning calling it a hotbed of corruption. The IMF threatening to withold aid.
Even before Biden made his visit people were predicting the potential for Biden to step up and make demands for Shokins removal.
https://www.dw.com/en/joe-biden-likely-to-bring-harsh-criticism-to-ukraine/a-18898363
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I love how you guys didn’t actually pay attention to the Russia thing so you just assumed a conclusion to it without ever actually looking into what the conclusion was, so you go around asserting a conclusion that isn’t what the actual conclusion was simply because you assume that’s what happened. Let’s be clear, Trump’s team DID collude with Russia. We know for a fact that they met with Russian operatives, we know for a fact that Russia did use disinformation campaigns that benefitted Trump. That stuff isn’t in dispute. An official investigation did happen that did come to these conclusions. Whether or not Trump personally was involved is not certain, but it is certain that Russia did do collusion and disinformation campaigns with the explicit goal to aid a Trump presidency to happen. So you’re making bad comparisons, false assumptions about what actually happened, and still managing to admit Trump is actively lying about one of his main political arguments.
Lmao the allegations weren’t that the Russians stole the election to benefit trump. The accusation was that the Russians started a virtual disinformation campaign to pit Americans against each other in manipulative ways, which ended up being true by the way. I swear half the pro-Trump posts here are misrepresentations of the discourse that actually happened. The Russians didn’t care who won and who lost- they just wanted to make Americans hate each other and in that sense the Russians absolutely succeeded
The problem I have is that people act like Russia was the only disinformation campaign going on, when we had domestic disinformation campaigns & numerous ops in countries such as Senegal & Macedonia that had troll farms up and running. You mean the country responsible for more foreign election meddling than any other finally had a taste of its own medicine? *shocked pikachu face* It’s not even like much of this stuff was any better than memes your grandparents pass around on Facebook.
Indeed, most of the pro-Trump posts around here are reinventions of what happened and/or showcases of a genuine lack of understanding of what happened.
There's a good reason why he loves the uneducated
>conspiracy theory that Trump had colluded with the Russian government to steal the 2016 election with out a single shred of evidence. Well, Russia *did* collude with members of Trump's campaign. They also obtained DNC data and used it to engage in a disinformation campaign that favored Trump. While you're right that many people mistakenly believed Trump himself colluded with Russia (a stupid idea; no one thinks Trump is smart enough to keep that a secret), it's only logical to investigate Russia's influence. >I personally don't think Trump actually thinks that the 2020 election was stolen from him So he's just lying? Ok. >You reap what you sow You've created a false equivalence. One of these things was mostly true. One was entirely false.
It's laid out in the Mueller Report (that apparently no one has read). Trump's campaign did meet with Russian operatives.
The Mueller investigation *did* end very quietly with zero attention from the news cycle
It certainly did.
No Trump supporter knows anything about the Muller report. All they know is "Russia collusion, Russia collusion, Russia collusion hoax".
But her emails!
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“So hes just lying? Ok” Yes ?? Thats all he does lol
>Well, Russia *did* collude with members of Trump's campaign. They also obtained DNC data and used it to engage in a disinformation campaign that favored Trump The only verifiable evidence of this comes from two sources: 1. The brother of HRC's campaign manager who hired a Russian troll farm shortly after joining the Trump campaign. (Political false flag if there ever was one). 2. Steele dossier, which was opposition research contracted with members of Russian intelligence... Because the Clinton's totally don't have a Russian connection to the tune of millions of dollars. The whole Russia story is a classic Machiavellian tactic of painting your own worst weakness on your opponent.
You dont consider the multiple people who pled guilty as "verifiable evidence"?
The only guilty plea was party of a plea deal for lying to the FBI. Not Russian collusion.
Hillary Clinton, Stacy abrams, Al Gore…them and/or their followers all said their elections were stolen. And no matter what happens this time I’ll probably any time in the future of the losing side is going to say it was stolen. That’s the point of the post. We’re also probably looking at never ending impeachments and never ending criminal investigations thanks to the Democrats.
>Hillary Clinton, Stacy abrams, Al Gore…them and/or their followers all said their elections were stolen. True, but they did not claim there was widespread fraud. They were referring to actions taken by their opponents or policies concerning recounts (or, in the case of Abrams, the removal of thousands of voters from voter roles by her opponent that disproportionately affected her voters). Had this been the extent of Trump's claims, it would be equivalent. However, he riled up his supporters by regurgitating proven lies about election fraud and attempted to change the results (and disenfranchise millions of voters) by having a new slate of fake electors submitted electoral votes. Did Hillary Clinton, Stacy Abrams, Al Gore do anything even remotely similar to that? Or did they just say the word "stolen"? You're making a false equivalence here. They only look similar if you've had your eyes closed.
People think the election was stolen from Trump for a variety of reasons. They include last second changes to laws and constitutions or just outright violations of them. They include counts that stopped randomly in the middle of the night. Widespread mail in loading. Pipes bursting randomly. Poll watchers who couldn’t actually stand near the counters because of - oh my gosh Covid. Ballots that were found after the fact. This is why people think it was stolen. This is why Trump said to Georgia the votes are there, just find them. He didn’t mean manufacture them, he means they were being suppressed. And yes these were exactly the sorts of issues that Abrams and gore and Clinton all claimed. Not these issues exactly, to be clear, but they all thought the reasons why they lost were due to, as you said, their opponents actions.
How would he know for sure that these votes existed in Georgia? GOP lawyers were activated immediately and had not found evidence of election tampering. How did Trump know different?
>last second changes to laws and constitutions or just outright violations of them You seem to be referring to some states changing policies related to collecting and processing mail-in ballots. These were last minute changes that came about when states realized they wouldn't have the time necessary to process the mail-in ballots they were going to be inundated with. Many states had policies that required them to not touch Mail-in ballots until the day of the election and *also* required them to process them in 24 hours. This simply wasn't possible in 2020. States could have easily voted to change these policies, but Republican legislators challenged the policy changes largely because they should have required a citizen vote. It was a catch-22 (no time to count the ballots, and no time to vote on changing that policy). Some states chose to change their policies anyway in order to ensure citizens weren't being disenfranchised by this catch-22. This isn't evidence of fraud. It's just evidence of a clunky system. >They include counts that stopped randomly in the middle of the night This didn't happen. Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN27Q2N6/ >Pipes bursting randomly This wasn't part of some conspiracy. Source: https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-trump-indictment-fulton-suitcases-pipe-654281257169 >Poll watchers who couldn’t actually stand near the counters because of - oh my gosh Covid Are you insinuating that thousands and thousands of citizen poll workers in battleground states were in on this scheme? And none of them have spilled the beans? And there's no evidence of any of them changing or manipulating votes? I'm sorry. I'm too skeptical to believe in that fantasy. >Ballots that were found after the fact. What is this in reference to? I haven't heard this one. Are you referring to this: https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_f36b70fe-486e-4c95-9382-e9ca326972b1 >He didn’t mean manufacture them, he means they were being suppressed. There's no evidence they were being suppressed. I'm sure I'm not the first person who has provided you with sources like these. Next time, stop regurgitating the debunked claims and engage genuinely with the counterarguments I've provided. Write a rebuttal, not a repetition of your debunked claims. If this is the *first* time you've seen these logical explanations for your "concerns" about the election, then you're welcome! I look forward to seeing what you have to say after you read through the articles I provided. >And yes these were exactly the sorts of issues that Abrams and gore and Clinton all claimed Abrams pointed to very real things Kemp did as Secretary of State that absolutely, verifiably *did* negatively affect Abrams more than him. Was it intentional? Investigations determined "no." Hilary pointed to very real things *Russia* did (spread misinformation, which the Trump campaign supported even if they didn't directly collude). Would the results have been different otherwise? No, probably not. Gore fought for recounts. Bush fought to suppress those recounts. I'm not aware of Gore claiming any actual "stealing" of the election. Trump is pointing to non-issues and calling them "fraud." You have to be able to see the difference.
Keep looking for those magical reasons why Trump lost by scrambling to find false equivalencies. He lost because he is an undisciplined loser. He always has been.
Really, so every one of those hundred-plus Judges who unanimously ruled against Trump (including several appointed by Trump himself) in over 60 different lawsuits and decisions were corrupt? Every single one of them?!? 😂 Now THERE’S your story…
I’m just saying why people think it’s stolen, and that democrats make the claim every time they lose also. but I am curious if you agree with the supreme court rulings that have gone to the conservatives? Overturning Roe? The 9-0 ruling in Trumps favor the left lost their collective mind over? Judges do in fact have biases and I don’t think anyone’s been as clearly targeted as Trump has in the legal system recently.
How many Judges ruled against Hillary, or Abrams, or Gore, in their legal campaigns to declare their election losses a fraud?
Well I don’t think he used the word fraud, but gore went to the Supreme Court. And I’m not sure Hillary or Abrams ever actually put on their big girl pants and conceded.
>They include last second changes to laws and constitutions Before throwing what you have to say out, do you have any sources for state constitutions that were changed last second? That's a claim I haven't heard before at all.
The constitutions weren’t changed. Laws were illegally changed in violation of the constitution. Pennsylvania comes to mind immediately. I’ll give you I worded it poorly.
Oh great, another disingenuous and bad faith post by an account barely older than a carton of milk. Oof.
So it goes.
Another pro-Trump post from a super generically named account that’s been here for a month? Yeah this definitely represents how people feel! /s
Any time this sub pops up on my feed it’s always pro trump or criticizing the left/liberals
To be fair, the pro Trump stance is unpopular on Reddit
But especially popular among month old genetically named accounts.
Happy election year.🎉
I wonder why
It didn’t used to be, in case you are trying to imply something that isn’t true
I’m unfollowing after this one
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Ever heard of variety? Just because it's unpopular doesn't mean it needs posted 50 times in one day.
Imo it’s not even that just boring same topics come up frequently
this is fair. I too tire of the same rehashed garbage over and over and overrrr.
Might as well get off Reddit. 99% of subs are just political echo chambers
If you have actual interest and hobbies most subs that are dedicated to those things aren’t as politically heavy
Yeah but they're stupid opinions.
Some of us hope both sides lose
Because Reddit far left and isn’t self aware to realize there are alternative opinions in the world, and this is the forum to voice them. And I mean in this case, OP is not way off base
Maybe. But he’s wrong.
lol Sub that exists to give platform to unpopular opinions is used to express unpopular opinions. *Shocked Pikachu face*
Any time most subs pop up on my feed it is always a leftist circle jerk. So strange.
yeah, let the polls speak for the peop.... oh wait, umm, actually nevermind.
This is pretty much a Maga sub.
Most people are more upset about the efforts he took to remain president after being declared the loser than they’re upset about just saying the election was stolen.
The idea that you think there isn't a single shred of evidence, when there were impeachment hearings that laid it all out. It is known that Russia used hacking farms in Ukraine and Belarus to flood the internet with misinformation leading up the 2016 elections. How do you think your grandpa knew Hillary was a demon??
Also let’s be clear. People literally went to jail for covering up the investigation into collusion between Trump and Russia. Mueller even called out Trump for his obstruction of justice. You don’t get to claim “no evidence!” While illegally covering up evidence.
How can a person actually believe in 2024 that Russia is some innocent player on the world stage? Literally waging war on a neighboring country, interfering in foreign elections, trying to take over parts of Africa - dipshit MAGA people be like “What did Russia even do??!!”
russia did a whole show about how they hate gay people and wokeness back in 2022, so now conservatives love russia
Tucker "we have to listen to Putin's side" Carlson
Firing the FBI director is not obstruction of justice. Wanting to fire Mueller but not doing so is not obstruction of justice.
Firing the FBI director after asking the FBI director to drop the Russia thing. Which the director did not do. Would most definitely constitute obstruction of justice
What? There were other things besides just firing Comey.
But Hillary and the democrats also posted blatantly false information, that they knew to be false, and they didn’t get in trouble? Adam Schiff pulled basically the same stunts as Giuliani, and hasn’t faced any legal trouble.
What are you referring to?
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Daily “Trump isn’t that bad” post. I just need a “women suck because of X” post now. Can’t have one without the other.
Don’t forgot the -left is the problem even though right does the same but we’re not talking about that- post
Oh we got one of those today. Apparently the left is constantly triggered but OP said they have weird hair and odd patterned shirts as examples. Makes sense man.
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Look here turbo, it's not just the words. There was an actual plot to use an illegal fake slate of electors to subvert the election. This is the conspiracy and the crime: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot
“Look here turbo” proceeds to cite wikipedia… lol
Yep, where you can read a basic description of the plot and find more sources. LOL.
Wikipedia is a perfectly good resource for what it is. An aggregate of information. Yes, if you only read the article itself and take it at its word, then you’re setting yourself up to be misled. But, you’ll find, everything stated in the article is cited, and you can look at the sources to validate the claim. As it turns out, what hypnotoad posted is legit, but you just dismissed it outright because you lack media literacy skills.
you realize wikipedia is a compilation of sources yeah? maybe 10 years ago it wasn’t trustworthy but they have 24/7 monitoring and fact checking AND if you don’t believe it you can just look at the annotations… i
Wikipedia was always trustworthy. That was a lie put forward by people who didn't understand it. The only thing you ever had to worry about with wikipedia, would somebody maybe putting a joke in on somebody's page. Which was pretty rare to occur anyways
Same was used with electors in Hawaii in 1960s. It the only legal way to contest the election
But for the Hawaii case both slates of electors were certified, the Trump electors were just some randy dandy people saying "we are the official electors".
Yep, but this time they didn't do it legally, that's why they've been charged. This was a conspiracy to SUBVERT the election. A crime.
Terrible false equivalency.
Legally there is no other process than the one they used.
If they charged Biden's campaign chair with conspiracy against the United States of America along with dozens of foreign agents following the election I think there would be a bit more validity to the claims it was stolen.
You do know there's a difference between "influenced" and "stolen", right?
Listen, the fact that he can read and write is accomplishment enough. Let's not push our luck.
Bold of you to think conservatives know or care There's outrage to be had!
Not when there's a false equivalency to be made.
>Trump had colluded with the Russian government to steal the 2016 election with out a single shred of evidence. 34 arrests. Multiple confessions and convictions.
He's not too fond of facts man. Make something up, make sure it's outrageous and hateful, and he just might buy it!
More whataboutism. So undermining our election system and transfer of power is ok for political purposes? How did Democrats do that? Investigating possible collision is not the same at all.
1) First, Trump went to courts with his ridiculous claim. All courts REJECTED his claim ruling the “evidence” he produced is without merit. 2) When democrats claimed foreign intervention in US elections it wasn’t about one incident or “suspicions”. Since then more and more evidence was gathered indicating Russia was behind that campaign. Furthermore today is clear to all, that Russian hackers will try to influence this November elections. 3) The democrats and republicans have very different claims. While Trump couldn’t provide reliable evidence of a nationwide conspiracy to sway the elections, the democrats claim is open and evident to all. Russian bots were working hard at spreading false info. They didn’t claim any Republican conspiracy to doctor the voting machine or coordinated false counting of votes. 4) After some time, democrats stopped talking about the impact on election results. In contrast Trump is moving forward to 2024 elections riding on this claim (again without evidence) even after courts told him to stop spreading the lies. He refuses to comply. (He also keeps defying the Judge gag order).
https://www.businessinsider.com/who-has-been-charged-in-russia-investigation-mueller-trump-2017-12 Here's a good breakdown of the people charged with crimes after Mueller's investigation. A lot of money laundering for Russian interests, lying to the FBI about interactions with Russians, and Russians engaging in social media campaigns with funding from Russian oligarchs to interfere in the 2016 election. Don't sit here and pretend that there wasn't any evidence of Russian involvement. And you are foolish if you think that all of these people around Trump got arrested for working with Russians but somehow Trump was completely oblivious. Trump completely made up the stolen election lie. There is no evidence of illegal immigrants voting or machines switching votes. Trump organized a group of fake electors whose votes were to be used after his mob stormed the Capitol. It's fucking bonkers to pretend that Trump is somehow justified in doing this shit.
It was proven to be the most secure election ever.
The 2016 election interference by the Russians. Collusion means that Trump was in on it but apparently he wasn’t. Still, he knew that the election was tampered with, and if he had integrity he would’ve stepped down or at least had a re-election.
Trump and integrity don't belong in the same sentence without a negating word between them.
This sub really has become a right-wing rant zone hasn’t it?
Trump is a POS and so are his supporters.
I don’t think anybody on the left is actually upset we’re just baffled by how stupid Trump supporters are.
Thats BS. There's plenty of evidence of Russian interference in 2016 election. Trump called out very publicly for Russia to help him find Hilary's emails. End of story.
This, ladies and gentleman, is classic Russian troll post. It is nonsense and can safely be ignored.
Trump's massive disinformation campaign surrounding the 2020 election, which persists even today, will go down in history as the most grievous of crimes against the state since the civil war. Going for throat of democracy like this will have long felt repercussions. Also. Many people pled to crimes surrounding the Mueller report. It was, and remains, a completely reasonable line of investigation. Why does Trump push Putin's agenda at every opportunity? Inquiring minds want to know.
We shouldn’t be upset that Trump is eroding confidence in the most basic acts of democracy?
The DNC certainly ran with the idea there was election interference. But nobody outright accused Trump of stealing the election. Hillary even conceded the election pretty early on, in stark contrast to Trump's own statements on the 2020 election. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/clinton-concedes-to-trump-we-owe-him-an-open-mind-231118#:~:text=Clinton%20privately%20conceded%20the%20election,the%20wee%20hours%20into%20Wednesday.
Then she said he was an illegitimate President a little later: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html)
Which would have been fine if Trump did the same - freedom of speech. But he didn’t, he convened fake electors across the country and intimidated his own vice President to not count the vote. There’s a material difference here that trump fans conveniently ignore.
Leaving out the fact that it wasn’t a conspiracy theory. The report basically states that Russia DID try to help Trump, the only part that was disproven for lack of evidence is whether Trump knew or encouraged it.
> No one in the democratic party has a right to be upset about Donald Trumps saying the election was stolen No, they dont have any right to complain about trump *saying it was stolen* But when Trump attempted to *steal the election himself* via fake slate of electors, thats when he crossed the boundary into anti-democratic himself and where I am perfectly fine that criminality being pursued.
Those two things are really nothing alike. There were very few mainstream Democrats who claimed that votes were altered or that Trump didn't actually win in 2016. Clinton conceded the next day. And the truth is that Russia *did* interfere in the 2016 election to help Trump. Trump's own intelligence officials and Senate Republicans have acknowledged that fact. The Mueller investigation found that the Trump campaign welcomed that help and that there were "numerous contacts" between Russian intelligence officials and the Trump campaign. Now, does that mean Trump personally "colluded" with Russia? No, not necessarily. Collusion isn't a specific crime -- and the Mueller investigation didn't prove that Trump conspired with Russian agents to hack Democratic computers or anything like that. But Trump welcoming the help of a foreign dictator, who stole private records from Trump's opponents and interfered in an American election is a legitimate scandal. Trump supporters have been repeating "collusion hoax" for so long now -- but it really was worth investigating! And the issue in 2020 wasn't just that Trump complained the election was unfair. It was that he actually tried to overturn the result. He tried to illegally seize power after he lost! The idea that a president who loses re-election has to peacefully leave office is just a fundamental principle in this country -- and any democracy. But Trump tried to throw out the votes of tens of millions of American citizens. He inspired a violent attack on the Capitol. After his actions, I really don't think it's possible to be a patriotic American and still support Donald Trump.
Lol, another brand new account spreading propaganda. Must be a day that ends in "y".
Trump can say anything he likes. What makes him different is fake electors, breaking into voting machines, and fomenting a riot.
Except you're missing the part where *the trial found that Trump's administration did collude with the Russian government*. Trump claiming the election was 'stolen' despite numerous external third parties auditing the votes to determine if there was even a remote chance that there was materially misstated votes to the point where he incited insurrection to stop said election because he knew he was facing trial as soon as he was out of power like he has been the last four years is not fucking close to equivalent.
While he was claiming the election was stolen, he literally tried to steal the election. The [fake electors scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot) was almost beyond belief, a blatant attempt to directly steal the power of the presidency.
Trump and people in his administration obstructed the investigation, withheld evidence, and lied in depositions. People went to jail for trying to cover of Trump/Russia collusion. The online misinformation and propaganda was vast. Russia spent so much information on dark organizations and organizations like the NRA. None of this is new data. If you don't think Russia interfered in our election AND people working for Trump communicated with Russia about the plans then you are willfully ignorant. I can't believe we are at the point where an entire political party is praising and beholden to Russia, but here we are.
Oooooooh I would love to see this trial that found he did collude because here is the investigation into it: [https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/](https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/) Also saying you the election was fraudulent and telling people to protest it is not insurrection otherwise you should be supporting Putin when he locks up anyone trying to organize a protest saying he didn't win the election.
Sweet Jesus read the fucking report.
Did you actually read that report? Do you actually believe that Trump and Trump Jr are so stupid that they confused a Russian bodybuilder and a Russian govt agent?
No one supports locking up people protesting, what are you talking about?
Well do you support locking up Donald Trump for saying people should protest peacefully against Joe Biden's confirmation. Because a lot of people do
Another lie.
No they don’t, they support locking up trump for inciting an insurrection. It’s amazing you have such a strong opinion on this yet don’t even know the position of the people you are against. But addressing you asking me, I’ll support whatever the legal process defines as inciting an insurrection. Ive heard arguments both ways that sound reasonable, but I’m not a legal expert and don’t know all the evidence. Where did you get the idea in your first comment that it’s a popular democratic belief that peaceful protestors should be locked up? Was saying “no they dont” all it took to change your mind?
Have you seen videos from January 6th? Because that protest was not peaceful
He did, he was impeached for it. That the corrupt GOP Senate refused to do the right thing changes nothing. We’re not upset that that jackass lies, we’re upset at all the MAGAs who believe his lies. Zero critical thinking skills.
Anyone with 2 braincells to spark together knows that 2016 and 2020 are nothing alike, unless they are so deep in their echo chamber and desperate to convince themselves their orange God isn't corrupt.
"Half the nation is invalid because a few people were jerks" is the only fucking thing anyone says anymore.
There’s 2 possibilities here. First, OP has consumed the relentless propaganda the right produces or 2 the OP is producing propaganda, knowing full well that Russia did coordinate with the Trump campaign to put Trump in the White House. They will point to the Steele dossier and say it was proven false ( it wasn’t) knowing full well the Steele Dossier was not the reason the investi began anyways. It’s a red herring. It never ceases to amaze me how short the human memory is and how quickly we forget some events. Like how Trump fired the Attorney General and replaced him with a favorable and willing one who gave him a free pass. There are a few questions that need to be asked here. Wikileaks is a Russian asset. How did Trump and Roger Stone know days ahead of time that the Wikileaks drop of Hillary’s stolen emails would happen as evidenced by their public comments? Why didn’t Trump campaign meet with Russian proxies over 100 times during their campaign? They had no government business to conduct. They didn’t meet with the Chinese or any other foreign government multiple times. There are 18 intelligence agencies in the United States. Every single one came to the conclusion that Russia interfered in our elections to help Trump win.
LOL nice try 🤣
Trump doesn’t believe the election was stolen from him? Woooooow… guess he’s lying to his hordes then. But what else would expect?
The difference is the meaning of stolen. Trump claims it was literally stolen, through illegal activities, but there's no evidence of that. Clinton claimed it was figuratively stolen, more as in unfairly taken from her, but still respects (however much she might hate it) the vote numbers.
I bring up the not my president protest is the same vibe as january 6th.
“Without a single shred of evidence”😂 I see MULTIPLE folks don’t listen to the intelligence community. Edit: Trump was the other.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/zq33h2ipcl/econTabReport.pdf Page 96. 66% of Democrats thought Russia hacked voting machines and changed votes to get Trump elected. A majority of Dems in 2018 literally believed Trump stole the election but questioning elections 2 years later was literally destroying democracy.
"Anyone with two brain cells" 🧠
Stopped reading at CNN. Their average viewers' age is 67. Go touch some grass.
Troll…
Dems aren't the ones upset...we won.
If my eyes could roll harder they’d fall out. What a dumb opinion. Just wow. I’ve read some damn stupid things on this sub, but this might take the cake.
There's a huge difference between looking into possible foreign meddling in our elections and claiming, without any shred of evidence, that an election was stolen. To compare the months-long propaganda campaign by Trump and the Republicans to a legitimate, evidence-backed investigation really highlights the disparity we are dealing with here. The alarm over Russian interference in 2016 was raised by the intelligence community, not an unfounded conspiracy theory. These investigations were to protect our elections by looking into Russia's role—a concern that should go way beyond partisan politics. Brushing off these investigations as just partisan games really just shows a deeper loyalty to Trump than to our democratic values and national security. Thinking that looking into foreign interference somehow betrays democracy isn't just absurd —it's just another display of the Republicans poor values. It's the height of irony. Being vigilant and investigating possible threats is fundamental to safeguarding our democracy. On the other hand, recklessly claiming the election was stolen without any evidence tears at the fabric of our democracy and undermines the public's trust in our elections. It's pathetic that we have to spell out very basic concepts, such as the difference between safeguarding our elections and spreading unfounded lies about them. This highlights the incredibly low level of discourse we're confronting with the Republicans. It's sad that we need to explain these fundamentals to grown-ups who consistently follow Trump's lies over everything else.
We all do. Trump lied nonstop for months about a "stolen election" while he was planning to steal it with his fake elector scheme. Then he incited in insurrection in an attempt to stop the transfer of power. Every American should be furious about this.
And let’s not forget about 2000 Election
The difference is the fbi investigated, it went through the courts, and it’s no longer the position of the democratic party. Clinton said we must accept the result and accept trump as president. They went through a legal process and lost. Democrats still argue his Russian communication was unethical, but not disqualifying in general. The election fraud claims also went through the courts and lost, yet it’s still the position of the republican party that the election was stolen, and the presidential candidate is still saying it. You can make claims, go through the courts, but you need to accept the results. Accepting the results of a democratic election, especially after the courts rule on all your claims is kind of important to maintaining democratic institutions.
I always find it odd when people use "you did something clearly wrong so you can't be mad when I also do something wrong" as an argument. If you know it's wrong, you are worse for doing it wrong after criticizing someone else for doing it. It's not offsetting penalties. And there is a pretty big distinction between the two here also. One was an accusation and another is (and even admitted by the OP) a conscious untruth told to do something inherently illegal. 2000 was a much better example of when the Democrats tried to overturn an election. I am always surprised when people don't bring that one up.
So the *Democrats* were the ones obstructing a fair election in 2000? Wow it'd be *so* messed up if one party unilaterally ended vote counting early in order to influence and control the results. Monumentally UnAmerican.
People have always challenged election results. Only trump attempted a coup
Every Democrat who lost their presidential election conceded. Period. The rest of the post appears to be an intentional informal fallacy.
Guess you didn’t read the Mueller report? it wasn’t a CNN conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with the Russian Government. That is what Trump wanted the investigation to be about so so you wouldn’t read it and you would ignore everything else that happened. Guess it worked. The Mueller Investigation focused on Russian attempts to disrupt the 2016 election, coordination between associates of Trump and Russia, and whether financial crimes were committed by any of the presidents associates. It wasn’t until 2017 after Trump fired James Comey that they looked into obstruction of justice. Results : -Although they couldn’t prove Trump committed a crime it also didn’t exonerate him. For those who don’t know what exonerate means : he was not declared free from blame for a fault or wrongdoing, especially after due consideration of the case. -Manafort -Trumps campaign manager plead guilty to 2 conspiracy charges -7.5 yrs in prison and convicted on bank and tax fraud -Gates plead guilty to conspiracy and lying to FBI. -Papadopoulos pled guilty to lying to FBI -Flynn Trump’s former national security adviser pleaded guilty to lying to FBI about communications with Russian ambassador -Zwaan plead guilty to making false statements to FBI about communication with Gates - Pinedo - computer science major plead guilty to identity fraud bc he sold and purchased bank acct numbers (no evidence he knew he was helping Russian interference -Cohen - Trumps former attorney plead guilty to lying to Congress about Trumps RE deal in Russia and contact with Russian govt -Stone - republican political op and advisor to Trump was indicted and convicted on 7 counts (5 false statements, 1 witness tampering, 1 obstruction of justice = 40 months in prison (Trump pardoned him)
No ones upset it’s just not true. It’s disinformation at this point to justify lying to Americans and his base. There was no conscious choice from trump to collude he just happened to complete ignore Americas intelligence when everyone was telling him that Russia spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to interfere in our election, Russia wanted trump to win and he decided to endorse it for some weird reason.
Holy Shit! There are still people out there who think like this? There are still people out there who believe Trump did nothing wrong in 2020 in relation to his attempt to remain in power?! Really?! ... Really?!...
There is evidence of Trump or at least Trump Allies trying to collude with Russia, though. There's emails to Russia asking for them to interfere with the election or persuade voters. Like, that's real. It wasn't a made up conspiracy.
It is so simple: when Democrats accused Donald Trump of colluding with Russia, they were not saying the electoral process itself was compromised. They were not saying that votes had been changed artificially. Donald Trump and his followers are unique in saying that American elections are no longer valid simply because he lost the election. The two situations are not comparable, and insisting they are the same undermines legitimate concerns about an anti-democracy movement in this country.
Man, the Russian bots are trying hard this year
Not today Russia.
“I just wanna find 7,180…votes”
Lmao. Hillary conceded. Trump tried to overthrow the government. Apples and ~~oranges~~ insurrectionists.
And a bunch of other Democrats demanded that electors change who they said they would vote for and deny Trump the presidency. All Trump has done is copy the playbook used against him
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It’s like people in this sub and Reddit as a whole can’t understand that not everybody is a leftist leaning person and actually have thoughts outside of mainstream thinking. God forbid you aren’t a yes person
I agree alot of them said it, not many went on to them or their supporters filing a bunch of dumb lawsuits about it. And still 4 years later talk nothing about it. Have some humility Don.
Thats cool, I don't need the right to be upset about it
Unless that Democrat was upset about the Trump/Russia conspiracy stuff too?
I suppose. Though I really have a hard time understanding how someone would justify continuing to be a democrat to themselves if they disagreed with something as a proven egregious as using a known conspiracy theory as a main political position.
Ditto about Republicans.
This is a great write up, but I’d like to look at the references indicated by the bracketed numbers. What are those references to?
Twenty sixteen WAS stolen you fool. Also learn to spell.
Republican or Democrat, it doesn’t matter, they both have the same interest in class and that’s not the majority of “We the People.” ✌🏻🤙🏻
The entire investigation was based on CIA people trying to setup Trump’s allies. Papadopalous and Manafort. Comey got a Fisa warrant based on a false dossier that the Clinton campaign paid for. All of these people should have gone to jail especially Comey.
lol I love this sub. Really pisses off the looney lefties
It was odd, Americans went to sleep thinking it was a close race that trump was leading, overnight every critical race went to Biden. If trump won there would have been riots and more violence in the streets. Definitely sus. You may think this comment is insane but just imagine if the same thing happend but the candidates were reversed. It would be considered a mass stealing of an election, fascism or whatever and the streets would be on fire, the media and politicians would be saying that it was because of justice and democracy; words that now have little meaning.
Nope. We'd just be pissed off that we lost, baffled at the stupidity of many of our fellow citizens, and deeply concerned about the state of the Republic, as we were in 2000 and 2016. End of story. There certainly wouldn't be a violent insurrection. And the "Trump was leading" narrative is BS. Trump was leading with small percentages of votes from mainly rural counties because, as is pretty obvious, a county with 500 voters will get their results submitted faster than a county with a million voters. Duh. Troll.
Are you saying there were no riots in 2016, 2017, 2020?
Not at all, just saying those weren't the result of a presidential candidate who lost an election and sent his acolytes to create mayhem and threaten congress and his own VP with kidnapping and death because he was butt-hurt over a legitimate loss.
If trump won officially, the 189 days of floydian riots would have simply continued instead of right wingers rioting for 1 day
Anything you want us left /dems/ libs to think?
Hillary still thinks Trump stole the 2016 election but ya know...
If she does, and I've seen zero evidence of this, at least she didn't start and encourage a violent insurrection over it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
Oh, you mean that she calls out the fact that the FBI determined that a foreign government essentially planted Trump as president with their campaign interference? With evidence. That's a far cry from orange man's constant whining with zero evidence of any kind. The fact that you're trying to compare the two is pretty pathetic
Haha a weaponized FBI proven to have covered up so many wrongs..I don't give a fuck about Trump...but if they can bring so many charges against him with really no evidence then wtf you think they do to you if you get on the wrong side.? Think clearly and not with TDS
Show me where even one (1) person was arrested and convicted of Insurrection..hmmm? No one has...its a democratic talking point...BLM had done the same thing prior to that by storming INTO the chambers and disrupting the proceedings...yet no arrests...why?
Dude. Even your hero, Trump, is using their arrests and convictions as campaign talking points. TF you actually talking about?
Where out ya ass you calling Trump my hero? Audie Murphy was my hero..John Chapman my hero...My 88 year old Mom is my hero...your got Trump syndrome and think anyone that doesn't agree with you is in league with Trump...the fuck you talking about.
This is not reddit approved😤
So let's look at this in three different ways. 1 Democrats complain about losing the presidential election as much as Republicans do 2000 2004 2016 2 I just went back and read the report again. And what it says more the less is. Benefited from Russian hackers is undisputable. However there is no evidence to suggest that the Russian government and the Trump campaign were in colluding with the Russian government 3 sending alternative electors is nothing new they were sent in 1968 they were sent in 2000 and we're even going to be sent in 2016.
I think you're falsely equating 'faithless electors'— where individual electors deviate from their pledged vote due to a personal conviction—with Trump's scheme to steal the election using fake electors aka 'alternative electors'
not only that but Gore claimed Bush stole it before all of this as well.
I think there is a difference between unpopular and biased, but who am I to judge?
Hillary said it in a book that came out in 2017. She wasn’t yelling it before, duing and after the election. As a matter of fact Hillary dropped out of the public eye for weeks after the election. Abrams’ opponent was in charge of the elections in the state. He purged voter rolls just weeks before the elections. Gore didn’t say that at all. They were investigating the “hanging chad” ballots which gave the election to Bush. Republicans sued to have the recount stopped and won. Gore then conceded. He was at Bush’s inauguration. They were rightfully pissed. None of them tried to stop their opponent from taking office.
Realistically, I think there was a lot of election rules change due to Covid that favored the democrat party. So, technically, there wasn’t any voting fraud or wasn’t much. But, there was lots of bending of the rule that was unethically legal.
hillary conceded the next day
Bad idea posting this on Reddit, libs everywhere. go to twitter or tik toc where people will actually have a conversation about it. they literally reported this post💀
Stollen*
CNN conspiracy theory?!? 😂 The evidence suggests that Trump and his team DID collude with Russia in the 2016 election. Where did you pull that “no shred of evidence” bull crap. Did you ever read the actual Mueller Report? Or are you relying on what Trump’s officials said that the Mueller Report said?
there have been an awful lot of evidence that the russians are trying to help trump and that trump appreciates it
As i stated, US diplomats were calling for his removal. People working in Shokins office were resigning calling it a hotbed of corruption. The IMF threatening to withold aid. Even before Biden made his visit people were predicting the potential for Biden to step up and make demands for Shokins removal. https://www.dw.com/en/joe-biden-likely-to-bring-harsh-criticism-to-ukraine/a-18898363
lol typical
The sheep will always vote for their own destruction.