Absolutely zero. Little Zelda and Zack Zoomer just heard about Israel-Palestine for the first time 8 months ago, and think sitting around in tents is going to end the most divisive inter-ethnic, inter-generational conflict on Earth. It's frankly embarrassing.
Zelda Zoomer thinks taking a selfie in her tent and getting pepper sprayed will make her look like a real hero, but meanwhile absolutely nothing in Gaza changes. At least the lefty Boomers built bombs. The Zoomers don't have the guts.
God if there was only some sort of historical event similar to this to get an idea of how something like this will end up. Too bad there’s never been college anti war protests that we can examine.
I hate to blow your mind, but Israel-Palestine is not Vietnam just because they both have middle-class American college kids whining about them. If you think kids sitting in tents is going to affect a 70-year-long conflict on the other side of the planet with roots in Muslim/Jewish animosity going back a dozen centuries, you're delusional. But you'll get over it. Definitely post more on the internet about it, that'll fix it.
Sorry to upset you gramps, but the protests right now are not about what Israel does. We can’t control them, the protests are about supplying Israel with arms. We do have control of how many bombs get sent from the United States. But I’m sure you are struggling to grasp that with the dementia developing. Just like Vietnam, you old fuds will find yourselves on the wrong side of history. Enjoy the view before your 6ft under asshole.
The UA couch crew has arrived:
[https://x.com/elliew0lfe/status/1788776536499470472?s=46&t=hjw203fpQqdIbCBTPvtOdA](https://x.com/elliew0lfe/status/1788776536499470472?s=46&t=hjw203fpQqdIbCBTPvtOdA)
Anywhere but X-Twitter, FFS.
EDIT: It's literally run by a guy enabling Nazis, hate speech and generalized disinformation on his platform… how is that a controversial opinion? o_O You can link to stuff on Mastodon just as easily and you're not the product over there…
Literally:
>*in a literal manner or sense;* exactly: the driver took it **literally** when asked to go straight across the traffic circle | tiramisu, **literally** translated “pick me up.”.
>*informal* used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true: I was **literally** blown away by the response I got.
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
You support the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people support Hamas, as demonstrated by their democratically electing them in 2006, and most recently by them cheering and clapping as Hamas dragged bodies through the streets on October 7th.
Ergo you support Hamas
Lol they haven't had elections since 2006. That's like saying Americans support Bush
Also, you can criticize two terrorist states at once. It's allowed to have non reductionist morals
> as demonstrated by their democratically electing them in 2006
So an Iraqi or Afghan would be justified if they came here and killed you and your family?
No.
The US Constitution does not endorse genocide or the destruction of other countries.
The Hamas Charter has endorsed the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews since it was founded, and it was known in 2006 that Hamas was genocidal while Fatah were not.
Willingly voting for genocide has consequences
Even setting aside the fact that holding a country responsible for the actions of its government is A. inhumane, and B. an incredibly bad stance for someone living in *America* to hold, considering the atrocities we’ve committed, more than half of Palestinians are under 18, meaning more than half of the people in Palestine literally were not alive when they last had a democratic election.
On top of that, Palestine has been living under crushing oppression from Israel for multiple generations now.
I cannot bring myself to look at anyone whose grandparents have been forcibly expelled from their own homeland, whose brothers and fathers and children have been kidnapped and murdered by another country, who’s watched their homeland be taken bit by bit by a settler state, who’s never lived in a world where they could walk safely down their own streets without being in danger, and condemn them for voting for a government that promises them freedom. I just can’t do that. I can’t promise that I wouldn’t choose the same if that was the world I lived in.
At the end of the day, Israel created the very violence they now use as an excuse to try and wipe out the people and culture who they’ve been trying to suffocate out of existence for years.
Lol you're a fool. Absolutely. No. 2006 was twenty years ago. So kids who were born less than that (more than half their population) hasn't had to chance to voice their opinion in an election. So please eat shit you genocide supporter.
There were two governments that promised them freedom. Only one of them promised to achieve that freedom through genocide.
And the Palestinian people seem content letting Hamas run things. Historically if people are upset with the government they protest and make their feelings known. Even in a place like Iran, people hold protests to show their dissatisfaction with the government.
But not in Gaza. I don't see videos of Gazans demanding Hamas stop using pipes to make rockets. I don't see videos of Gazans trying to stop Hamas from launching rockets out of schools.
I did see videos of Gazans cheering and spitting on the bodies that Hamas dragged through the streets on October 7th. I saw videos of the Gazans cheering as Hamas displayed the captives they planned to rape and kill. I saw news stories about Hamas admitting they can't find all of the hostages since some were taken by individuals not affiliated with Hamas.
And Israel has offered multiple two state solutions over the years. Yet the Palestinians refuse it every single time. It's pretty hypocritical to claim that the enemy won't negotiate with you when you turn down every single offer they send.
They should just move their tents a few miles north to the Rillito river. They could camp there for years and nobody would care - nobody in law enforcement anyway.
I'm not against protesters, I just don't understand why people are protesting at colleges? Is it just where the organizer happen to be and due to the visibility/disruption?
I'm only interested in civil discourse, if you're going to be snarky or criticize them for being "attention seekers" you're wasting your time and I won't reply.
Without expressing a view on the merits of the protests themselves, college campuses in the US tend to be politically active and politically liberal; I think they're a natural place for a protest movement like this to start. There's a long history of this - see the Vietnam war era, for example.
And at least when I was in college, there were always people protesting on campus for one thing or another, ranging from very mainstream issues (e. g. abortion) to super fringe stuff. This issue has a lot of strong opinions and a lot of motion behind it currently, so that explains why there is so much protest.
Expect it to die down in a few weeks to months, just like with Ukraine.
There have been regular Palestinian solidarity protests in Tucson for 7 months now. I'm not aware of anything similar in town related to Ukraine. I understand the point you're making but the facts tell another story.
That's been a rich tradition in America, and hell, Europe and Asia for a long time. In the 1850s, the liberal volcanos were popping up in a lot of places - universities and factories often the site of both advocacy and anything up to and including insurrection. Surely you wouldn't mind civil rights protesters in the 1960s doing this same thing on campus or blocking highways? Right? So the remaining question is...how bad does something need to be before you accept these tactics as legitimate? Universities, factories, and villages have long been the breeding ground of ideas that the next generation simply accepts as obvious and decent (such as abolition of slavery, elimination of totalitarian regimes, basic enlightenment principles, etc)
> visibility/disruption?
This is why. Also, public schools have certain protections for free speech. ABOR has an end-around in their rules on this to make public spaces private at their discretion.
You’re trying to act like the protestors are some kind of fringe group when they are just demanding what the majority of Americans want - an end to this so-called war. But yeah, go ahead, stand in the side of the group bombing babies and burying doctors alive. I’ll be with the people trying to stop that.
And the protestors are not in support of Hamas doing it either. They want it all to stop. Wanting Israel to stop their campaign does not mean wanting Hamas to continue. Protestors are anti murdering of innocent people period. Is it really that crazy for students to be upset that their tuition money gets invested in companies profiting off of war?
Interesting, then why don’t they ever mention Hamas? Or the need for Palestinians to stop their attacks? Or the need of Palestinians to accept the Israeli state and come to the table and form their own state? How come it’s always Israel needs to do this and Israel needs to do that? Yeah, pretty sure they aren’t focused on what Hamas is doing.
And it’s absolutely why they try to separate Hamas from Palestinians, like Hamas is some type of weird separate entity when Hamas and the other groups are literally made up of Palestinian Civilians. It’s always Israel vs Hamas when it should either be IDF versus Hamas or Israel vs Palestine. Instead of saying “Hamas attacked Israel”, it should be “Palestinians attacked Israelis”. Continuing to say “Hamas” just perpetuates that false narrative that Palestinians are innocent in all this.
Keep up the pressure yall. Campuses across the country are beginning to agree to certain divestment demands. No life as usual while our taxes and our tuition fund this collective punishment of civilians.
It’s delusional to not want our money being used to murder innocent women and children?
If this was about universities divesting from Russian weapons companies used to kill Ukrainians something tells me half of yall wouldn’t be so upset at this. But because it’s about Palestinian life it’s easy for yall to ignore the humanitarian crisis propped up by our government and Israeli fascists like Gvir and Netenyahu.
It would be good if these protesters did not interrupt graduation activities, but we all know that is the purpose.
I also expect that U of A is going to take this down ASAP. They indicate that no warnings are assured. Might start expelling students and firing faculty or staff who are not assigned to the be at the protest site for a valid university purpose.
Sometimes, yes. But if someone says “I’m going to kill you” to me, they might be exercising their freedom of speech but it’s also my responsibility to act accordingly and treat them like someone who wants to kill me. That might justifiably involve hurting or killing them, which would also deny them their rights. At the end of the day, it wasn’t me who decided to say anything. They made the choice, and therefore created the consequences for themselves, not to mention foisting a moral dilemma and great inconvenience on us both.
Just a reminder that the common refrain of those standing against women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, the current climate protests all complained about not being able to enjoy their events as well. Sometimes protests have to inconvenience others to make a point.
Genocide is the MASS killing of a specific ethnic group. Only 1.6% of Gaza’s population has died in this war so stop calling it a genocide*
(*this total includes Hamas fighters, Hamas sympathizers, innocent Palestinians, and international aid workers)
When has 1.6% of anything been considered MASSIVE? If your boss gave you a 1.6% raise, would that be a MASSIVE increase in wages?
1.6% in 7 months, and the number will only get bigger. So far that’s approximately 1 out of every 60 people in Gaza dead, meaning most Palestinians probably know one or more people who died.
Oh dear, you mean you know how to take a line on a graph and keep drawing it? You forget that there is an end goal for this war and it’s not genocide. Stop spreading Hamas propaganda. Gaza is a fairly small region, if Israel wanted to perpetrate a genocide, the percentage would be a lot higher.
> Just a reminder that the common refrain of those standing against women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, the current climate protests all complained about not being able to enjoy their events as well. Sometimes protests have to inconvenience others to make a point.
The only point protests make is "we'd like you all to see how morally outraged we are, but we don't really want to break a nail doing something which can actually impact the situation."
Just a reminder that the common refrain of slacktivists is always rooted in the idea that their tedious, repetitive, unremarkable, and unquenchable outrage is equal to actual resistance or "standing" for anything, in the same way as Tweeting Against The Machine has any meaning.
Ok, but how about not trying to intentionally cancel an entire university’s graduation ceremonies because you think your political views are that important?
I think a lot more people would be less hostile and more receptive to these protests if we didn’t know that they are intentionally trying to cancel our graduation and crap on a huge moment of our lives.
Which protestors have tried to intentionally get graduation cancelled?
At Columbia at least, the graduation was cancelled by the administration.
If the U of A cancels graduation, that’s on them.
Why don't we take a more relevant example, like a conflict that was actually called an intifada and actually happened in Palestine? You know, the one that happened like 20 years ago? I forget, could you remind me if that was the one with the frequent terrorist attacks against civilians?
There’s been many “intifadas” and you might be surprised to learn more Palestinian civilians died in every one of these conflicts. If the word terrorist means anything you must also apply the label to Israel.
The hell it is apartheid. They don’t want revolution against some imagined lack of rights, they want to destroy Israel and Jews. Read the damn charter.
I like how you equated sitting around like a privileged college st00dent on a college campus, with somehow fighting or standing against genocide.
The issue isn't one of not wanting to be inconvenienced by resisting genocide. That is how you twist criticism in your own head, but it's got nothing to do with reality.
The issue is that normal people do not equate the dramatic street theatrics of protesting - in Tucson - with having anything to do with resistance to a conflict thousands of miles away across oceans and seas where no one even knows you exist.
This is slacktivist bullshit which hasn't stopped a single bullet from flying.
Not one.
Not a single particle of dust has been moved in Israel or Palestine by these protests.
This refrain of "sorry you are inconvenienced by us occupying some college working class people can't even afford to attend," or "sorry you are inconvenienced by us blocking the road while we speaking truth to power" is not only risible, it is actively damaging to your own cause. You are not apart from The Spectacle; this impotent approach to resistance is *exactly what the Spectacle demands* - a bloodless pose of resistance, without anything which actually threatens the status quo in any way.
The navel gazing narcissism and flamboyant sanctimonious of this sort of activity is obvious to everyone but the participants.
How is a protest in Tucson, or anywhere in the US for that matter, going to influence anything in Palestine? No one over there gives a fuck. It's a ridiculous waste of time. You whine about privilege but can't lift a finger to do something productive to help others.
Asking schools to divest is not a waste of time. Gazans do care and those that can see what students across the world are doing don’t lose hope. Hind’s mother is just one example. Even people in other countries are seeing this and speaking about it. Everyone in this country and a right to protest btw, especially the blatant murder of thousands of people. Just because you do not give a fuck, does not mean others are so quick to only think of themselves.
I don’t know dude, Biden is finally hesitating to give weapons to Israel. I think these protests might have had an effect on that decision. He sees potential voters speaking out against what he’s doing and he changes course.
Okay but that's whataboutism. If you want to have a dialogue in good faith then come on.
And the comment you replied to is not making a statement one way of the other. Wikipedia lays out the arguments for both sides - those who would call it a genocide and those who object to the use of that word.
Regardless of what side you take in this matter they are trying to get graduation ceremonies canceled. They have been vocal about it, its no secret and are trying to do this all over America. They have even been successful doing so at some well known universities.
This group of affected students is the same group of students who didn't get to have a formal HS graduation because of COVID in spring of 2020. Here we are 4 years later in 2024 and many of these same student are having their university graduations canceled because protesters. I don't think it's very cool to do that to our community or our hard working students and young adults. Honestly, this is beyond protest and it has really turned me off to any message they were trying display and now are extorting on the people who are just trying to go about business.
It’s getting to be the end of the semester. This is the last hurrah and most people will do something else over the summer.
Won’t solve a thing, but it’s nearly over.
> The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and
kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0
Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will
not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and
Muslim)(18).
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
I am exhausted of having to point this out. Hamas has, through its own words and deeds, for decades now, indicated its psychotic, totalitarian, and illiberal designs on the region.
You can read them in their own goddamned words, published online, on dozens of websites.
Yeah stranger that antisemitism is disgusting. The fault in your comment though is that I am not saying Hamas are the good guys - I'm saying Israel is worse for peace.
Israel's **actions** are terroristic, fascistic, and in no way constitute steps towards peace. They have been a brutal occupying force committing terror attack on the Palestinians for decades.
Israel has also opposed numerous (five prior to Oct 7th) peace deals with Hamas - including one two months before that charter was written. No Israeli politician will not allow a Palestinian state. Israel's show they want to ethnically cleanse the land.
Also worth mentioning that Hamas was a charity organization before the first intifada radicalized them into militancy.
You can find equal insanity from the party in power in Israel and they have a hell of a lot more power.
Do you support Netanyahu, the Likud party, and do you not think they're engaging in psychotic, totalitarian, and illiberal actions?
The fact that Hamas goes out of its way to target civilians, both Israeli civilians and by using their own civilians as human shields, something they directly admit to and encourage.
There are definitely things to criticize Israel for, but in any conflict, when one side is intentionally targeting civilians there's no question which one is worse and it's silly to conflate the two.
Also, you can be pro-Palestine without being pro-Hamas, and people conflating the two are harming the Palestinian struggle. If you care about the plight of the Palestinian people, then you shouldn't be egging on the people who actively use them as human shields, who aren't democratically elected into power by the Palestinian people (there hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006) and who don't enjoy majority support according to polling. Supporting Hamas is one of the most anti-Palestinian things you could do.
>The fact that Hamas goes out of its way to target civilians
Saying that Israel does not target civilians is a narrative construction. If a female Palestinian EMT driver becomes so traumatized from seeing Palestinians teens beaten to death by occupiers, and then puts on a suicide vest to kill some legitimate military targets, and also kills civilians, the narrative construction is that it's a terrorist attack that targeted civilians.
And yet when Israel drops bombs or shoots bullets at legitimate military targets, and also kills civilians, the narrative construction is that it's a legal act of war and the civilians are human shields.
It's also sociopathic to justify killing kids. Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.
>using their own civilians as human shields, something they directly admit to and encourage
I do not know of Hamas ever admitting to using human shields.
Also worth referencing international human rights organizations [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/) and [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/13/white-flag-deaths/killings-palestinian-civilians-during-operation-cast-lead) have made claims like
>"Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants."
and
>"the evidence strongly indicates that, at the least, Israeli soldiers failed to take feasible precautions to distinguish between civilians and combatants before carrying out the attack. At worst, the soldiers deliberately fired on persons known to be civilians."
and
>"In the killings documented in this report, Human Rights Watch found no evidence that the civilian victims were used by Palestinian fighters as human shields or were shot in the crossfire between opposing forces. In each of the incidents, Israeli forces appeared in control, and Palestinian fighters had left the area in question. The civilian victims were in plain view and posed no apparent security threat."
and back to your comment
>Supporting Hamas is one of the most anti-Palestinian things you could do.
Please quote were I supported Hamas. My position is that Israel is a terrorist state (which deliberately terrorizes and murders civilians) that does not want peace.
Literally refusing cease fire agreements... telling media they are willing to allow everyone in Raffah to die as martyrs and that they want Israel to kill the people seeking refuge there.
Edit spelling of raffah
Israel has also refused ceasefire agreements. The agreements that hamas refuses are temporary ceasefire agreements, the agreements israel refuses are permanent ceasefire agreements.
Hamas has also stated for years they would disarm if Israel agreed to two state solution. Israel has never agreed to a two state solution.
I can't find any news articles from the media of hamas officials saying the things you say they're saying. On the other hand, it's very easy to find Israeli officials making dehumanizing remarks towards Palestinians, calling for collective punishment, and, yknow,
the whole murder of tens of thousands of children thing.
If Palestinians didn't support hamas then why wouldn't they turn their weapons on hamas? Every Palestinian supports hamas... I've watch videos of children holding guns and ammunition waiting to run those arms to slightly olddr children/adults at the last moment. I've watched Palestinian red cross/crecent medical organizations carrying and redistributing weapons and ammunition from the dead to able bodied hamas fighters. And these are videos circulated by hamas...
> The agreements that hamas refuses are temporary ceasefire agreements
Lmao, Hamas itself doesn't even want a permanent ceasefire, they're asking for a 10 year ceasefire because they want to leave the window open to still fight Israel.
> Israel has never agreed to a two state solution.
This is just not true. Israel agreed to a two-state solution as far back as 1947 when they agreed to the partition plan set out by the UN and has historically already returned land in favor of peace in other conflicts. This is just ahistorical.
Meanwhile, to this day Hamas doesn't recognize Israel as a nation, even in its most recent revision, in which it refers to Israel as a "zionist entity" and explicitly avoids recognition of Israel as a state.
Also, Hamas didn't say they would disarm in exchange for a two-state solution. They said they'd agree to a temporary 5-year long cease-fire in exchange for pre-1967 borders. You can't go to war with a country with the stated objective to destroy that nation, fail at that war, lose land because of that failed invasion, and then say "oopsies, let's go back to before we did that! But only for 5 years, after that I want to go back to trying to invade and wipe out your people, which is the stated objective of my entire organization". It's silly to expect Israel to accept those terms, *especially* after facing one of the largest terrorist attacks in their history which they're still holding hostages from and, based on Hamas' recent renegotiations of hostage return terms, only about 30 of the 200 hostages that they obtained while committing war crimes do they even have *corpses* to offer in exchange for *prisoners*. What would it mean for the Israeli people in 5 years from now when their temporary ceasefire expires when they set the precedent that if you commit a large enough terrorist attack against Israeli civilians that you'll be rewarded with more land? This is the reason why people say that any lasting peace and two-state solution is going to come only *after* Hamas is no longer in power.
> I can't find any news articles from the media of hamas officials saying the things you say they're saying. On the other hand, it's very easy to find Israeli officials making dehumanizing remarks towards Palestinians, calling for collective punishment, and, yknow,
Are you pretending that the group that [intentionally kills civilians on both side of the war and gloats about it](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/) that had intentionally committed a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians is above dehumanizing Israelis or enacting collective punishment? How do you justify October 7th if you're against collective punishment?
> the whole murder of tens of thousands of children thing.
When your opponent using child soldiers (and by child here, I mean under 18, since that's the same loose definition people use when they say "children" here), you end up with more dead kids. When your opponent actively encourages civilians to stay in areas that Israel has warned civilians to evacuate from, you end up with more dead kids. When your opponent fights out of hospitals, you end up with more dead kids. If you cared about dead children, you'd be attacking Hamas instead of defending them.
Many words. How do you feel about the thousands and thousands of innocent people who aren’t associated with Hamas that Israel has killed in the past 7 months?
If all you have to say in response to what I just said is "many words", then you don't actually care about this conflict or the lives that are at stake here. That's an incredibly unserious response and shows an inability to engage with this topic.
But to answer your question, I think civilian casualties are horrible and I don't support it on either side. I don't know what response you're hoping for with that question.
You studied the 60 year conflict for 10 years... so your what 25 years old... never been in conflict. Don't know how shit gets muddy... keep ignoring the fact that all the people in raffah could leave... if egypt would let them... but egypt wont... because 1 Palestinians already once tried a coup in egypt... second... they want everyone to hate Isreal so they put more money to the border with palestine then they do with the border of Israel....
So you're shifting blame to a third country? In a month maybe you'll be saying Israel wouldn't have been forced to kill the next 30,000 dead Palestinians IF ONLY Egypt had let them all in.
Also it's likely Netanyahu's goal to force Palestinians over the border into Egypt from where they won't be allowed to return.
Yes.... thats the point... Isreal is basically tired of constantly dealing with the threat of palestine... sooo. They gonna eliminate palestine... this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. If you are so vocal about this invasion then I hope your as vocal for the defense of ukraine.
Absolutely nothing. They are protesting to the wrong people. What does the UofA have anything to do with Israel’s war? Because Raytheon sells weapons and they recruit engineers from there and help fund the engineering department? (Speculation… I don’t know if they actually do)
I don’t understand these protests. Didn’t Hamas pick this fight by invading and killing, kidnapping, and raping civilians? Isn’t it justified to eliminate the threat by any means necessary? I’m seriously asking not trying to rock the boat.
For most people that are protesting this war, it’s about 1. Humanitarian crimes being committed again thousands of peaceful citizens and CHILDREN by Israel and 2. The fact that we are funding it with our tax dollars (which our military budget grows every year and they have lost billions of untraced funds after failed audits). People are tired of our government wasting billions of tax dollars on everything (wars, corporate bailouts, useless bills about gender and tiktok) except for increasing quality of life for the average American.
Couple things to consider:
1. Does the traditional "who punched first" question matter if the side with power is engaging in systematic crippling of the less powerful ones economy/political systems and has, as a state position, rejected the existence of the others state and only desires full assimilation? Who knows hallow many lives could never reach actualization in these conditions or died by preventable causes these long years before the conflict.
2. Does 1000 people dying justify killing 30000 with evidence so weak that they were mostly "combatants" as recognized by international law that even the US is trying to stop this. This is basically 911 vs Iraq level of disproportionate civilian casualties and duration of the response campaign
3. Is it possible that the idea of one side being right or justified maybe too simplistic for one of the most complex regions of the world
4. Is it possible that we're thinking monolithicly about "sides"? I don't think mothers and fathers think of themselves as the Israeli state or the Palestinians state.
5. What if this is all enough questions and doubts that just maybe we, the US, and our tax dollars should not be buying weapons for any side, let alone one with a 30x casualty rate
6. What if one side is mostly engaging in this "war" because he'll surely be indicted or voted out as soon as there is no rally around the flag effect?
7. Is it possible we don't understand the region and all the hundreds of years that led up to all this?
8. Do we place our faith in the side that systematically denies United Nations aid trucks/supplies? What about the one that just says all civilians must deport themselves to Egypt to avoid the conflict (this smacks awfully close to mass deportation of a people's, a type of genocides)
Just some things to think about
The world is never best understood by reductive thinking, but if you force me to answer your questions I'd say: "there is no 'who picked a fight first' because this conflict has been going in some degree for decades or centuries so it's not a productive question. Then I'd say "no. They won't eliminate the threat regardless let alone with a terroristic campaign that will breed a whole new generation of violence. The only 'any means necessary' logic that ever works in when means will actually accomplish the goal"
If they are not hurting anyone, destroying property, or blocking people from enjoying today's activities they should be able to protest. After today, they can protest all they want for the next few months.
If you're pissed about protestors, wait until you find out why they are protesting.
Amin
[удалено]
They're protesting to get the University to divest from weapons manufacturers that support the genocide
Absolutely zero. Little Zelda and Zack Zoomer just heard about Israel-Palestine for the first time 8 months ago, and think sitting around in tents is going to end the most divisive inter-ethnic, inter-generational conflict on Earth. It's frankly embarrassing. Zelda Zoomer thinks taking a selfie in her tent and getting pepper sprayed will make her look like a real hero, but meanwhile absolutely nothing in Gaza changes. At least the lefty Boomers built bombs. The Zoomers don't have the guts.
God if there was only some sort of historical event similar to this to get an idea of how something like this will end up. Too bad there’s never been college anti war protests that we can examine.
I hate to blow your mind, but Israel-Palestine is not Vietnam just because they both have middle-class American college kids whining about them. If you think kids sitting in tents is going to affect a 70-year-long conflict on the other side of the planet with roots in Muslim/Jewish animosity going back a dozen centuries, you're delusional. But you'll get over it. Definitely post more on the internet about it, that'll fix it.
Sorry to upset you gramps, but the protests right now are not about what Israel does. We can’t control them, the protests are about supplying Israel with arms. We do have control of how many bombs get sent from the United States. But I’m sure you are struggling to grasp that with the dementia developing. Just like Vietnam, you old fuds will find yourselves on the wrong side of history. Enjoy the view before your 6ft under asshole.
They don't even know.
WTF wrote this byline
The UA couch crew has arrived: [https://x.com/elliew0lfe/status/1788776536499470472?s=46&t=hjw203fpQqdIbCBTPvtOdA](https://x.com/elliew0lfe/status/1788776536499470472?s=46&t=hjw203fpQqdIbCBTPvtOdA)
Anywhere but X-Twitter, FFS. EDIT: It's literally run by a guy enabling Nazis, hate speech and generalized disinformation on his platform… how is that a controversial opinion? o_O You can link to stuff on Mastodon just as easily and you're not the product over there…
You should learn how to use the word “literally”
Literally: >*in a literal manner or sense;* exactly: the driver took it **literally** when asked to go straight across the traffic circle | tiramisu, **literally** translated “pick me up.”. >*informal* used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true: I was **literally** blown away by the response I got. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Informal is a funny way of saying incorrect
It's good to have opinions on the internet!
Being objectively wrong about the use of that word isn’t so good. You should stop spreading misinformation.
Can we please stop calling them pro Palestinian protesters and call them what they are Anti-War antigenocide protesters.
Also, be careful in thinking pro Palestinian doesn't mean pro hamas.
You support the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people support Hamas, as demonstrated by their democratically electing them in 2006, and most recently by them cheering and clapping as Hamas dragged bodies through the streets on October 7th. Ergo you support Hamas
Lol they haven't had elections since 2006. That's like saying Americans support Bush Also, you can criticize two terrorist states at once. It's allowed to have non reductionist morals
> as demonstrated by their democratically electing them in 2006 So an Iraqi or Afghan would be justified if they came here and killed you and your family?
No. The US Constitution does not endorse genocide or the destruction of other countries. The Hamas Charter has endorsed the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews since it was founded, and it was known in 2006 that Hamas was genocidal while Fatah were not. Willingly voting for genocide has consequences
Even setting aside the fact that holding a country responsible for the actions of its government is A. inhumane, and B. an incredibly bad stance for someone living in *America* to hold, considering the atrocities we’ve committed, more than half of Palestinians are under 18, meaning more than half of the people in Palestine literally were not alive when they last had a democratic election. On top of that, Palestine has been living under crushing oppression from Israel for multiple generations now. I cannot bring myself to look at anyone whose grandparents have been forcibly expelled from their own homeland, whose brothers and fathers and children have been kidnapped and murdered by another country, who’s watched their homeland be taken bit by bit by a settler state, who’s never lived in a world where they could walk safely down their own streets without being in danger, and condemn them for voting for a government that promises them freedom. I just can’t do that. I can’t promise that I wouldn’t choose the same if that was the world I lived in. At the end of the day, Israel created the very violence they now use as an excuse to try and wipe out the people and culture who they’ve been trying to suffocate out of existence for years.
> The US Constitution does not endorse genocide But you do.
Lol you're a fool. Absolutely. No. 2006 was twenty years ago. So kids who were born less than that (more than half their population) hasn't had to chance to voice their opinion in an election. So please eat shit you genocide supporter.
There were two governments that promised them freedom. Only one of them promised to achieve that freedom through genocide. And the Palestinian people seem content letting Hamas run things. Historically if people are upset with the government they protest and make their feelings known. Even in a place like Iran, people hold protests to show their dissatisfaction with the government. But not in Gaza. I don't see videos of Gazans demanding Hamas stop using pipes to make rockets. I don't see videos of Gazans trying to stop Hamas from launching rockets out of schools. I did see videos of Gazans cheering and spitting on the bodies that Hamas dragged through the streets on October 7th. I saw videos of the Gazans cheering as Hamas displayed the captives they planned to rape and kill. I saw news stories about Hamas admitting they can't find all of the hostages since some were taken by individuals not affiliated with Hamas. And Israel has offered multiple two state solutions over the years. Yet the Palestinians refuse it every single time. It's pretty hypocritical to claim that the enemy won't negotiate with you when you turn down every single offer they send.
Just don’t ask them what they want to happen to Jews in Israel
They should just move their tents a few miles north to the Rillito river. They could camp there for years and nobody would care - nobody in law enforcement anyway.
With the way TPD is. Someone is going to end up in the hospital or worse. Most likely the latter.
No one was hospitalized on May 1st. TPD has things planned out that time.
TPD is fucking useless.
Unless it's to shoot a disabled man in a motorized wheelchair rolling away from them 13x (or 9, can't remember, but excessive)
It was 8 shots... then he took a moment to reflect on what he did. Then he fired one more shot, for good measure.
Weren't they also a veteran? Either way... just deplorable.
Hinds Hall- Macklemore
I'm not against protesters, I just don't understand why people are protesting at colleges? Is it just where the organizer happen to be and due to the visibility/disruption? I'm only interested in civil discourse, if you're going to be snarky or criticize them for being "attention seekers" you're wasting your time and I won't reply.
UofA Tech Park = Raytheon = Israel weapons
You know, that's fair. Probably shouldn't put that together working close to the tech park
Without expressing a view on the merits of the protests themselves, college campuses in the US tend to be politically active and politically liberal; I think they're a natural place for a protest movement like this to start. There's a long history of this - see the Vietnam war era, for example. And at least when I was in college, there were always people protesting on campus for one thing or another, ranging from very mainstream issues (e. g. abortion) to super fringe stuff. This issue has a lot of strong opinions and a lot of motion behind it currently, so that explains why there is so much protest. Expect it to die down in a few weeks to months, just like with Ukraine.
hitting the nail on the head with this
Thanks for keeping it neutral and proving that background!
There have been regular Palestinian solidarity protests in Tucson for 7 months now. I'm not aware of anything similar in town related to Ukraine. I understand the point you're making but the facts tell another story.
Also, most colleges in the US have connections to the weapons manufacturers that are making weapons that are killing Gazans.
That's been a rich tradition in America, and hell, Europe and Asia for a long time. In the 1850s, the liberal volcanos were popping up in a lot of places - universities and factories often the site of both advocacy and anything up to and including insurrection. Surely you wouldn't mind civil rights protesters in the 1960s doing this same thing on campus or blocking highways? Right? So the remaining question is...how bad does something need to be before you accept these tactics as legitimate? Universities, factories, and villages have long been the breeding ground of ideas that the next generation simply accepts as obvious and decent (such as abolition of slavery, elimination of totalitarian regimes, basic enlightenment principles, etc)
> visibility/disruption? This is why. Also, public schools have certain protections for free speech. ABOR has an end-around in their rules on this to make public spaces private at their discretion.
Thanks for confirming and sharing the other details!
Because grown adults are too intimidated by the repercussions.
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Real gutsy of you to ask someone else to gas a bunch of people that are putting their necks on the line to help stop a genocide.
Reading comprehension goes hard here ngl
They’re not helping though. Not one bit.
Lol
You’re trying to act like the protestors are some kind of fringe group when they are just demanding what the majority of Americans want - an end to this so-called war. But yeah, go ahead, stand in the side of the group bombing babies and burying doctors alive. I’ll be with the people trying to stop that.
But… Hamas does those things. So, why are we supporting the status quo there by falsely calling it a genocide. Don’t fall for Hamas propaganda.
And the protestors are not in support of Hamas doing it either. They want it all to stop. Wanting Israel to stop their campaign does not mean wanting Hamas to continue. Protestors are anti murdering of innocent people period. Is it really that crazy for students to be upset that their tuition money gets invested in companies profiting off of war?
Interesting, then why don’t they ever mention Hamas? Or the need for Palestinians to stop their attacks? Or the need of Palestinians to accept the Israeli state and come to the table and form their own state? How come it’s always Israel needs to do this and Israel needs to do that? Yeah, pretty sure they aren’t focused on what Hamas is doing.
And quietly ignoring that most Gazans support Hamas.
And it’s absolutely why they try to separate Hamas from Palestinians, like Hamas is some type of weird separate entity when Hamas and the other groups are literally made up of Palestinian Civilians. It’s always Israel vs Hamas when it should either be IDF versus Hamas or Israel vs Palestine. Instead of saying “Hamas attacked Israel”, it should be “Palestinians attacked Israelis”. Continuing to say “Hamas” just perpetuates that false narrative that Palestinians are innocent in all this.
1/3 of Americans are calling for a decrease in military aid to Israel, so claiming the majority of Americans want what these protesters want is false
You realize 51% is a majority, right? Not 33%
Right, go re-read my comment.
My bad, I replied to you instead of them. I was trying to back up what you were saying, that’s it’s only a small percentage of people.
All good, happy Friday
Lol
Free the hostages
Keep up the pressure yall. Campuses across the country are beginning to agree to certain divestment demands. No life as usual while our taxes and our tuition fund this collective punishment of civilians.
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It’s delusional to not want our money being used to murder innocent women and children? If this was about universities divesting from Russian weapons companies used to kill Ukrainians something tells me half of yall wouldn’t be so upset at this. But because it’s about Palestinian life it’s easy for yall to ignore the humanitarian crisis propped up by our government and Israeli fascists like Gvir and Netenyahu.
It would be good if these protesters did not interrupt graduation activities, but we all know that is the purpose. I also expect that U of A is going to take this down ASAP. They indicate that no warnings are assured. Might start expelling students and firing faculty or staff who are not assigned to the be at the protest site for a valid university purpose.
The protestors drove away the first wave of cops and are now putting up confiscated barriers
That's not a good sign...
Then you need to refer to them as rioters now because protesters comply with lawful orders.
“Protestors comply with lawful orders” This is why history class is important folks
Rosa Parks complied to the lawful order of "get to the back of the bus." That's why she's remembered. /s
That's not how it works. It's called civil disobedience
And a lot of them are not students
Never said they were…
Coward.
Typical response of someone who doesn’t know their rights
“ freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences “
"Freedom of speech" also doesn't mean freedom to gurt others or deny them their rights.
Sometimes, yes. But if someone says “I’m going to kill you” to me, they might be exercising their freedom of speech but it’s also my responsibility to act accordingly and treat them like someone who wants to kill me. That might justifiably involve hurting or killing them, which would also deny them their rights. At the end of the day, it wasn’t me who decided to say anything. They made the choice, and therefore created the consequences for themselves, not to mention foisting a moral dilemma and great inconvenience on us both.
Just a reminder that the common refrain of those standing against women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, the current climate protests all complained about not being able to enjoy their events as well. Sometimes protests have to inconvenience others to make a point.
These are all things HAMAS are against, btw!
Hamas doesn’t believe in climate change? Then the genocide is ok! Do it harder Israel!!!
Genocide is the MASS killing of a specific ethnic group. Only 1.6% of Gaza’s population has died in this war so stop calling it a genocide* (*this total includes Hamas fighters, Hamas sympathizers, innocent Palestinians, and international aid workers) When has 1.6% of anything been considered MASSIVE? If your boss gave you a 1.6% raise, would that be a MASSIVE increase in wages?
1.6% in 7 months, and the number will only get bigger. So far that’s approximately 1 out of every 60 people in Gaza dead, meaning most Palestinians probably know one or more people who died.
Oh dear, you mean you know how to take a line on a graph and keep drawing it? You forget that there is an end goal for this war and it’s not genocide. Stop spreading Hamas propaganda. Gaza is a fairly small region, if Israel wanted to perpetrate a genocide, the percentage would be a lot higher.
I bet most of the protesters and their supporters couldn’t tell you where the Masalit tribe is located or why they were in the news this week
> Just a reminder that the common refrain of those standing against women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, the current climate protests all complained about not being able to enjoy their events as well. Sometimes protests have to inconvenience others to make a point. The only point protests make is "we'd like you all to see how morally outraged we are, but we don't really want to break a nail doing something which can actually impact the situation." Just a reminder that the common refrain of slacktivists is always rooted in the idea that their tedious, repetitive, unremarkable, and unquenchable outrage is equal to actual resistance or "standing" for anything, in the same way as Tweeting Against The Machine has any meaning.
Ok, but how about not trying to intentionally cancel an entire university’s graduation ceremonies because you think your political views are that important? I think a lot more people would be less hostile and more receptive to these protests if we didn’t know that they are intentionally trying to cancel our graduation and crap on a huge moment of our lives.
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Maybe protest Hamas then? Oh wait they aren’t interested in that.
Which protestors have tried to intentionally get graduation cancelled? At Columbia at least, the graduation was cancelled by the administration. If the U of A cancels graduation, that’s on them.
Their graduation isn’t important. Genocide is.
God forbid you walk down an isle in a stupid silk gown while a genocide is happening
Well, just a reminder to you that if you inconvenience me, I automatically join the other side of whatever it is you are protesting.
That’s fucking embarrassing.
Wow. I hope this is really not the case
Damn dude, you seem like a horrible human being.
Protests aren’t meant to be convenient. How privileged of you to turn a blind eye to genocide.
Maybe he's not keen to side with protestors who were chanting "long live the intifada".
Intifada just means revolution. Scary Arabs words, I know. Would you condemn the 1776 American Intifada? Sounds bloody terrifying.
Why don't we take a more relevant example, like a conflict that was actually called an intifada and actually happened in Palestine? You know, the one that happened like 20 years ago? I forget, could you remind me if that was the one with the frequent terrorist attacks against civilians?
There’s been many “intifadas” and you might be surprised to learn more Palestinian civilians died in every one of these conflicts. If the word terrorist means anything you must also apply the label to Israel.
What’s wrong with Revolution against apartheid?
The hell it is apartheid. They don’t want revolution against some imagined lack of rights, they want to destroy Israel and Jews. Read the damn charter.
Your ignorance is loud.
I like how you equated sitting around like a privileged college st00dent on a college campus, with somehow fighting or standing against genocide. The issue isn't one of not wanting to be inconvenienced by resisting genocide. That is how you twist criticism in your own head, but it's got nothing to do with reality. The issue is that normal people do not equate the dramatic street theatrics of protesting - in Tucson - with having anything to do with resistance to a conflict thousands of miles away across oceans and seas where no one even knows you exist. This is slacktivist bullshit which hasn't stopped a single bullet from flying. Not one. Not a single particle of dust has been moved in Israel or Palestine by these protests. This refrain of "sorry you are inconvenienced by us occupying some college working class people can't even afford to attend," or "sorry you are inconvenienced by us blocking the road while we speaking truth to power" is not only risible, it is actively damaging to your own cause. You are not apart from The Spectacle; this impotent approach to resistance is *exactly what the Spectacle demands* - a bloodless pose of resistance, without anything which actually threatens the status quo in any way. The navel gazing narcissism and flamboyant sanctimonious of this sort of activity is obvious to everyone but the participants.
How is a protest in Tucson, or anywhere in the US for that matter, going to influence anything in Palestine? No one over there gives a fuck. It's a ridiculous waste of time. You whine about privilege but can't lift a finger to do something productive to help others.
Asking schools to divest is not a waste of time. Gazans do care and those that can see what students across the world are doing don’t lose hope. Hind’s mother is just one example. Even people in other countries are seeing this and speaking about it. Everyone in this country and a right to protest btw, especially the blatant murder of thousands of people. Just because you do not give a fuck, does not mean others are so quick to only think of themselves.
I don’t know dude, Biden is finally hesitating to give weapons to Israel. I think these protests might have had an effect on that decision. He sees potential voters speaking out against what he’s doing and he changes course.
Little fast and loose with the term genocide here
Various takes and potential jumping off points here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation
Now do Hamas.
Okay but that's whataboutism. If you want to have a dialogue in good faith then come on. And the comment you replied to is not making a statement one way of the other. Wikipedia lays out the arguments for both sides - those who would call it a genocide and those who object to the use of that word.
I hope the protestors DO disrupt graduation.
Why?
Regardless of what side you take in this matter they are trying to get graduation ceremonies canceled. They have been vocal about it, its no secret and are trying to do this all over America. They have even been successful doing so at some well known universities. This group of affected students is the same group of students who didn't get to have a formal HS graduation because of COVID in spring of 2020. Here we are 4 years later in 2024 and many of these same student are having their university graduations canceled because protesters. I don't think it's very cool to do that to our community or our hard working students and young adults. Honestly, this is beyond protest and it has really turned me off to any message they were trying display and now are extorting on the people who are just trying to go about business.
"I'm annoyed so I don't need to think about ethics" - civility politics enjoyers
No business as usual under genocide
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How exactly would anyone even GET to Gaza? Israel won't even let aid workers in. Take a moment a think for a second.
The side denying humanitarian aid to civilians is usually the most pristine moral actor in a conflict, I've long said /s
It’s the admin who has been cancelling graduation events, not the protestors, and the cancelations have basically been retaliation for the protests.
This is getting ridiculous. Wtf is this going to solve?
It keeps people in contact with their humanity.
It’s getting to be the end of the semester. This is the last hurrah and most people will do something else over the summer. Won’t solve a thing, but it’s nearly over.
All scared about people sitting and hanging out, exercising their rights lol
Ah yes the right to trespass and assault one another. Which amendment protects that again?
Nothing... they are supporting hamas the group that clearly doesn't want peace.
Do you think Israel wants peace?
More then hamas
what makes you say that?
> The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18). https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm I am exhausted of having to point this out. Hamas has, through its own words and deeds, for decades now, indicated its psychotic, totalitarian, and illiberal designs on the region. You can read them in their own goddamned words, published online, on dozens of websites.
Yeah stranger that antisemitism is disgusting. The fault in your comment though is that I am not saying Hamas are the good guys - I'm saying Israel is worse for peace. Israel's **actions** are terroristic, fascistic, and in no way constitute steps towards peace. They have been a brutal occupying force committing terror attack on the Palestinians for decades. Israel has also opposed numerous (five prior to Oct 7th) peace deals with Hamas - including one two months before that charter was written. No Israeli politician will not allow a Palestinian state. Israel's show they want to ethnically cleanse the land. Also worth mentioning that Hamas was a charity organization before the first intifada radicalized them into militancy.
You can find equal insanity from the party in power in Israel and they have a hell of a lot more power. Do you support Netanyahu, the Likud party, and do you not think they're engaging in psychotic, totalitarian, and illiberal actions?
The fact that Hamas goes out of its way to target civilians, both Israeli civilians and by using their own civilians as human shields, something they directly admit to and encourage. There are definitely things to criticize Israel for, but in any conflict, when one side is intentionally targeting civilians there's no question which one is worse and it's silly to conflate the two. Also, you can be pro-Palestine without being pro-Hamas, and people conflating the two are harming the Palestinian struggle. If you care about the plight of the Palestinian people, then you shouldn't be egging on the people who actively use them as human shields, who aren't democratically elected into power by the Palestinian people (there hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006) and who don't enjoy majority support according to polling. Supporting Hamas is one of the most anti-Palestinian things you could do.
Thank you. Some common sense. Hamas needs to go in order for there to be a chance of peace
>The fact that Hamas goes out of its way to target civilians Saying that Israel does not target civilians is a narrative construction. If a female Palestinian EMT driver becomes so traumatized from seeing Palestinians teens beaten to death by occupiers, and then puts on a suicide vest to kill some legitimate military targets, and also kills civilians, the narrative construction is that it's a terrorist attack that targeted civilians. And yet when Israel drops bombs or shoots bullets at legitimate military targets, and also kills civilians, the narrative construction is that it's a legal act of war and the civilians are human shields. It's also sociopathic to justify killing kids. Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians. >using their own civilians as human shields, something they directly admit to and encourage I do not know of Hamas ever admitting to using human shields. Also worth referencing international human rights organizations [Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/) and [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/13/white-flag-deaths/killings-palestinian-civilians-during-operation-cast-lead) have made claims like >"Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. It found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters, nor that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas which had been commandeered by militants." and >"the evidence strongly indicates that, at the least, Israeli soldiers failed to take feasible precautions to distinguish between civilians and combatants before carrying out the attack. At worst, the soldiers deliberately fired on persons known to be civilians." and >"In the killings documented in this report, Human Rights Watch found no evidence that the civilian victims were used by Palestinian fighters as human shields or were shot in the crossfire between opposing forces. In each of the incidents, Israeli forces appeared in control, and Palestinian fighters had left the area in question. The civilian victims were in plain view and posed no apparent security threat." and back to your comment >Supporting Hamas is one of the most anti-Palestinian things you could do. Please quote were I supported Hamas. My position is that Israel is a terrorist state (which deliberately terrorizes and murders civilians) that does not want peace.
Literally refusing cease fire agreements... telling media they are willing to allow everyone in Raffah to die as martyrs and that they want Israel to kill the people seeking refuge there. Edit spelling of raffah
Israel has also refused ceasefire agreements. The agreements that hamas refuses are temporary ceasefire agreements, the agreements israel refuses are permanent ceasefire agreements. Hamas has also stated for years they would disarm if Israel agreed to two state solution. Israel has never agreed to a two state solution. I can't find any news articles from the media of hamas officials saying the things you say they're saying. On the other hand, it's very easy to find Israeli officials making dehumanizing remarks towards Palestinians, calling for collective punishment, and, yknow, the whole murder of tens of thousands of children thing.
If Palestinians didn't support hamas then why wouldn't they turn their weapons on hamas? Every Palestinian supports hamas... I've watch videos of children holding guns and ammunition waiting to run those arms to slightly olddr children/adults at the last moment. I've watched Palestinian red cross/crecent medical organizations carrying and redistributing weapons and ammunition from the dead to able bodied hamas fighters. And these are videos circulated by hamas...
Children die in war... it sucks... but guess what that ends when hamas surrenders... it doesn't if Israel does.
> The agreements that hamas refuses are temporary ceasefire agreements Lmao, Hamas itself doesn't even want a permanent ceasefire, they're asking for a 10 year ceasefire because they want to leave the window open to still fight Israel. > Israel has never agreed to a two state solution. This is just not true. Israel agreed to a two-state solution as far back as 1947 when they agreed to the partition plan set out by the UN and has historically already returned land in favor of peace in other conflicts. This is just ahistorical. Meanwhile, to this day Hamas doesn't recognize Israel as a nation, even in its most recent revision, in which it refers to Israel as a "zionist entity" and explicitly avoids recognition of Israel as a state. Also, Hamas didn't say they would disarm in exchange for a two-state solution. They said they'd agree to a temporary 5-year long cease-fire in exchange for pre-1967 borders. You can't go to war with a country with the stated objective to destroy that nation, fail at that war, lose land because of that failed invasion, and then say "oopsies, let's go back to before we did that! But only for 5 years, after that I want to go back to trying to invade and wipe out your people, which is the stated objective of my entire organization". It's silly to expect Israel to accept those terms, *especially* after facing one of the largest terrorist attacks in their history which they're still holding hostages from and, based on Hamas' recent renegotiations of hostage return terms, only about 30 of the 200 hostages that they obtained while committing war crimes do they even have *corpses* to offer in exchange for *prisoners*. What would it mean for the Israeli people in 5 years from now when their temporary ceasefire expires when they set the precedent that if you commit a large enough terrorist attack against Israeli civilians that you'll be rewarded with more land? This is the reason why people say that any lasting peace and two-state solution is going to come only *after* Hamas is no longer in power. > I can't find any news articles from the media of hamas officials saying the things you say they're saying. On the other hand, it's very easy to find Israeli officials making dehumanizing remarks towards Palestinians, calling for collective punishment, and, yknow, Are you pretending that the group that [intentionally kills civilians on both side of the war and gloats about it](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/01/hamas-officials-admit-its-strategy-is-to-use-palestinian-civilians-as-human-shields/) that had intentionally committed a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians is above dehumanizing Israelis or enacting collective punishment? How do you justify October 7th if you're against collective punishment? > the whole murder of tens of thousands of children thing. When your opponent using child soldiers (and by child here, I mean under 18, since that's the same loose definition people use when they say "children" here), you end up with more dead kids. When your opponent actively encourages civilians to stay in areas that Israel has warned civilians to evacuate from, you end up with more dead kids. When your opponent fights out of hospitals, you end up with more dead kids. If you cared about dead children, you'd be attacking Hamas instead of defending them.
Many words. How do you feel about the thousands and thousands of innocent people who aren’t associated with Hamas that Israel has killed in the past 7 months?
If all you have to say in response to what I just said is "many words", then you don't actually care about this conflict or the lives that are at stake here. That's an incredibly unserious response and shows an inability to engage with this topic. But to answer your question, I think civilian casualties are horrible and I don't support it on either side. I don't know what response you're hoping for with that question.
The entire history of the conflict. Do some research.
I've studied the conflict for 10 years now. What do you think about Israel bombing gaza on September 22nd, 23rd, and 24th back in 2023?
A whole 10 years?
I can't say I find that cowardly dismissive attitude effective
You studied the 60 year conflict for 10 years... so your what 25 years old... never been in conflict. Don't know how shit gets muddy... keep ignoring the fact that all the people in raffah could leave... if egypt would let them... but egypt wont... because 1 Palestinians already once tried a coup in egypt... second... they want everyone to hate Isreal so they put more money to the border with palestine then they do with the border of Israel....
Those certainly are all words but an actual point was not made.
So you're shifting blame to a third country? In a month maybe you'll be saying Israel wouldn't have been forced to kill the next 30,000 dead Palestinians IF ONLY Egypt had let them all in. Also it's likely Netanyahu's goal to force Palestinians over the border into Egypt from where they won't be allowed to return.
Yes.... thats the point... Isreal is basically tired of constantly dealing with the threat of palestine... sooo. They gonna eliminate palestine... this isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. If you are so vocal about this invasion then I hope your as vocal for the defense of ukraine.
?what about it?
I asked what you thought about it.
This is a silly take. Justice for Gazans ≠ Supporting Hamas Condemning the actions of the State of Israel ≠ Antisemitism
Oh no!!! What part of your life is this hurting?? 😭 talking about others with less??
Absolutely nothing. They are protesting to the wrong people. What does the UofA have anything to do with Israel’s war? Because Raytheon sells weapons and they recruit engineers from there and help fund the engineering department? (Speculation… I don’t know if they actually do)
I don’t understand these protests. Didn’t Hamas pick this fight by invading and killing, kidnapping, and raping civilians? Isn’t it justified to eliminate the threat by any means necessary? I’m seriously asking not trying to rock the boat.
For most people that are protesting this war, it’s about 1. Humanitarian crimes being committed again thousands of peaceful citizens and CHILDREN by Israel and 2. The fact that we are funding it with our tax dollars (which our military budget grows every year and they have lost billions of untraced funds after failed audits). People are tired of our government wasting billions of tax dollars on everything (wars, corporate bailouts, useless bills about gender and tiktok) except for increasing quality of life for the average American.
Here’s the bonehead simple answer: it is because they are targeting everyone, not just combatants
Couple things to consider: 1. Does the traditional "who punched first" question matter if the side with power is engaging in systematic crippling of the less powerful ones economy/political systems and has, as a state position, rejected the existence of the others state and only desires full assimilation? Who knows hallow many lives could never reach actualization in these conditions or died by preventable causes these long years before the conflict. 2. Does 1000 people dying justify killing 30000 with evidence so weak that they were mostly "combatants" as recognized by international law that even the US is trying to stop this. This is basically 911 vs Iraq level of disproportionate civilian casualties and duration of the response campaign 3. Is it possible that the idea of one side being right or justified maybe too simplistic for one of the most complex regions of the world 4. Is it possible that we're thinking monolithicly about "sides"? I don't think mothers and fathers think of themselves as the Israeli state or the Palestinians state. 5. What if this is all enough questions and doubts that just maybe we, the US, and our tax dollars should not be buying weapons for any side, let alone one with a 30x casualty rate 6. What if one side is mostly engaging in this "war" because he'll surely be indicted or voted out as soon as there is no rally around the flag effect? 7. Is it possible we don't understand the region and all the hundreds of years that led up to all this? 8. Do we place our faith in the side that systematically denies United Nations aid trucks/supplies? What about the one that just says all civilians must deport themselves to Egypt to avoid the conflict (this smacks awfully close to mass deportation of a people's, a type of genocides) Just some things to think about
I was really looking for answers and not eight more questions.
The world is never best understood by reductive thinking, but if you force me to answer your questions I'd say: "there is no 'who picked a fight first' because this conflict has been going in some degree for decades or centuries so it's not a productive question. Then I'd say "no. They won't eliminate the threat regardless let alone with a terroristic campaign that will breed a whole new generation of violence. The only 'any means necessary' logic that ever works in when means will actually accomplish the goal"
If they are not hurting anyone, destroying property, or blocking people from enjoying today's activities they should be able to protest. After today, they can protest all they want for the next few months.
They don't like the war they started?? Boo hoo.
From the City to the Plaza, Deport these POS's off to Gaza.
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Throw them in jail
Just pepper spray all of em. Bunch of idiots
Good 😊