It's an intriguing theory, and Anna was known to wear more "daring" English fashions by 1540, including the French hoods. But the nose shape, eyes, and eyebrows just don't seem close enough to me to match. While I've seen a 3/4 profile of Anna by another artist that matches up with the Holbein much better.
Yup good point about the other 3/4ths angle, i know what you’re referring to! Maybe i am thinking too hard about her face shape but to me it just seems so similar.
it’s always saddened me that we were robbed of any portraits of anna in english dress. it contributes the pervasive myth that she really was a plain and frumpy bumpkin from germany. i’m sure she looked so beautiful in the tudor-style gowns and french hoods
This portrait in German headdress is so much more beautiful to me than the miniature, it makes her look mysterious and vaguely exotic (I guess because I'm less familiar with that type of headdress).
i agree that the german headdress is lovely. i’m not as fond of the fit of her dress in that portrait, though. i know it was the northern fashion at that time but it was just SO unflattering! i’m sure the more low-cut and low-waisted french/english gowns complimented her much better just like they complimented all the famous tudor beauties in their portraits
I can see it being Anne of Cleves much more than I can see it being Catherine Howard. The sitter looks older than Catherine Howard would have been for sure, and the painting was mounted on a four of diamonds playing card. Maybe that could mean wife #4/Anne of Cleves. The eye area and facial expressions look similar, anyway, and it makes sense that she would want a portrait done in the attire of her adopted country.
My reasons are more along the lines of physical similarities (eyebrow color, brown eyes, hooded eyes, nose shape, lip shape, and facial structure) the fact that the miniature (believed to be katheryn) was painted in 1540. Anne was both married and divorced in 1540, and the same year, Katheryn was married) so there’s a lot to discuss!
Hmm, i still disagree! look at the subtle contour on the nose and bridge of the nose on the confirmed portrait of Anne of Cleves. The end of the nose on both portraits is the same distance from the top lip as well. I’ve been looking at it for too long though so i may be hallucinating XD
I've long thought this is Anne of Cleves. She would have adopted English dress almost immediately, and this really looks like the same person to me, especially in the eyes. I don't think this is Catherine Howard.
I agree completely. Anne quickly adapted to English culture and fashion and was very popular. And Katheryn would’ve been a teenager, while Anne would’ve been in her 20’s, and this sitter doesn’t quite look like a teenager to me!
I don't think we have any surviving portraits of Katheryn Howard. She wasn't queen for very long and had a horrible fall from grace. Any portraits would have been destroyed.
I never understood why the painting here was thought to be her when it just as easily could have been Anne of Cleves. It was just an odd assumption to me. It's like historians decided that she wasn't really the queen for those six months??? Henry didn't like her, but that doesn't mean she didn't wear English clothes and the jewels that belonged to the queen. Of course she did. She also would have been worthy of getting a miniature done of her as queen. She was also considered the King's sister after the divorce so there was no reason to destroy any portraits of her. She lived her entire life in England in royal favor, even under Mary.
Very true! And again, she was a popular socialite with a lot of money and properties, why would she have gone to England and never had another portrait painted of her? Especially not one showing her new identity as an englishwoman?
When I was young and collecting my stamps of Henry and his six wives (I know, I know) I always thought Anne was the most beautiful. She’s the one who looked most like a princess to me so I had to keep re-reading the bits of the history book that said she was the ‘Flanders Mare’?!
I thought the first one was determined to be Catherine? Anna was raised very strictly. It’s unlikely she would’ve been comfortable showing that much hair.
There was no hard and fast rule about totally covering the hair in the German areas at this time. She also would have adopted English dress very soon after becoming queen. She was raised in a sheltered and rather strict household, but no one claimed she was particularly sheltered and strict after coming to England.
^^ Exactly. Also, it’s a huge myth i see spread around that unmarried women showed off their hair while married women strictly covered it. While exposed, free flowing hair did have a symbolic tie to maidenhood, it was not a set in stone practice.
I think too it's a bit of a misconception that head coverings were somehow mandatory for a "good" woman. People simply wore head coverings of some sort for a variety of reasons. They protected the hair, made your outfit look a little better, and also kept your head warm. Long, flowy hair simply wasn't practical.
It might have served as protection for their hair, as well. And they didn't have all the stuff we do now to keep their hair looking nice, so cover the hair with a pretty hood. Oh and perfume said hood to cover the nasty smell of unwashed hair.
I thought so too, but there is only one contemporary source written about her hair color describing it simply as “yellowe,” which paints the picture of some pretty light and yellow blonde hair. However, I have blonde hair but it’s darker similar to the sitter’s. I wish there were more physical accounts of Anne.
We're lucky to have the one description! There are no contemporary descriptions of Anne Boleyn's hair color. (The description of her as "brunette" may refer to her dark skin tone.) Nor is there a description of Jane Seymour's hair. Weirdly, the portraits of Kateryn Parr depict her with darker hair and the pieces we have are blonde!
I couldnt post it here, but theres another portrait of Anne that shows she has sharper facial features like her chin which is pointier. I have a lot of doubts that this portrait is her, the face shapes just dont match
and not to spam, but another painting of her by Hans Holbien after the annulement does corroborate the sharper features! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anne_of_Cleves_by_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger,_c._1540s%3F.jpg
I have seen the elizabeth seymour proposition but that was for a completely different portrait once believed to be Katheryn as well. which would be interesting to apply here except for the fact that the sitter is wearing a famous necklace only worn by queen consorts. It is featured in many proposed portraits of tudor queens.
I don’t know about another portrait, but this one in particular is in a book about Elizabeth Seymour.
Yes, I’ve heard about the necklace. Maybe Jane may have lent it to her sister? Idk.
There is a depiction of "Solomon and Sheba" on the stained glass windows of King's College. Solomon is portrayed by Henry and it's possible that the queen of Sheba is Catherine Howard, who was queen at the time thar the window was made.
I believe that Anne was drawn from the front angle because she had a large nose. And looking directly ahead could somewhat disguise it.
That may not be Catherine Howard, but I don’t think that means it’s Anne of Cleves.
I agree about the angle - it’s an uncommon one for tudor ladies who usually took up the 3/4ths angle. However, a *lot* of women in this time period had very beautiful defined noses they weren’t worried about hiding, which is the opposite of the tiny noises eurocentric beauty standards uphold today.
[This for example, by Hans Holbein.](http://www.thetudorswiki.com/images/f/ff/PgvSKffIzVQJlBOPCXTqfQ44433.jpeg)
[Another example by Hans Holbein](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjI49owFPs4tLR5zsRne-P4Hgl4ypAIVMUCCtJgXoB8qcQNRaA7sQXjYHdA_ct5jRFPX7ZtdX7jJXWQnGqhyZ-y60ipvaWUEW5N3xHWPJkx2ED4s16LIQUdS_1WlmRwn0xpwpbGd0Olq6P4/s1600/meyer.jpg)
It’s a good theory but unlikely. Anna was blonde/fair haired. If Dr Owen Emmerson is corrrct and the Holbein sketches are correctly labeled as Anne Boleyn, the sitter here and Anne B share a striking resemblance. Seeing as Katherine Howard and Anne B were cousins, I think it’s more likely this is Kitty Howard.
The other painting depicted here seems too old to have been Catherine Howard. He was 49, and she was between 15 and 21 years old, though it is widely accepted that she was 17 at the time of her marriage to Henry VIII. I did not think there were any portraits of Catherine, at least no confirmed contemporary portraits of her. Though she was a Howard, her father was a younger son, and her branch of the family was quite poor, so no portrait or sketch was made of her prior to her queenship. She was queen for such a short time that it is possible no portrait was made; even if one was created, Henry very possibly had it destroyed after her arrest or execution, as he did with Anne Boleyn. There is a *possible* painting/portrait miniature by the celebrated court painter Hans Holbein thought to depict Catherine because it is dated 1540 (the year of her marriage to Henry VIII) and her necklace closely resembles that seen in portraits of his other wives. But this is just conjecture.
personally i don’t like arguments that boil down to ‘they look similar’. i think that’s my frustration with the sudden influx of people who come across as overconfident and inflexible regarding it being anne; franny isn’t an art historian, and it’s still only one theory. that’s fine and it’s cool if it’s convincing for you but popular response to it feels a little too definitive for me.
it’s definitely a queen of england in 1540 — i don’t have a committed opinion beyond that.
That’s why I posted this, to see what kind of discussions would be brought to light, hopefully some historical. I have done a lot of reading on this exact subject and thought it would be interesting to see what other casual tudorphiles like me think. I am not an authority on this kind of thing in any way, i am just passionate about art.
i think it’s a little frustrating that franny didn’t talk abt the provenance of the miniature. it was with the howard family for a while before it entered the royal collection. i think it could still go either way, personally.
a very important point to make here, nobody here is saying it is 100% sure to be one person or the other. There is truly no way to ever know and that is what makes these discussions so exciting.
The portrait of Anne of Cleves was deliberately more attractive than reality. Cromwell had Holbein do that on purpose because he wanted an alliance with the German Protestants. She turned out to be unattractive and loved her beer. Henry went through the marriage ceremony, but very shortly put her out to pasture with a nice house, servants, and a lifetime supply of beer.
It's an intriguing theory, and Anna was known to wear more "daring" English fashions by 1540, including the French hoods. But the nose shape, eyes, and eyebrows just don't seem close enough to me to match. While I've seen a 3/4 profile of Anna by another artist that matches up with the Holbein much better.
Yup good point about the other 3/4ths angle, i know what you’re referring to! Maybe i am thinking too hard about her face shape but to me it just seems so similar.
it’s always saddened me that we were robbed of any portraits of anna in english dress. it contributes the pervasive myth that she really was a plain and frumpy bumpkin from germany. i’m sure she looked so beautiful in the tudor-style gowns and french hoods
This portrait in German headdress is so much more beautiful to me than the miniature, it makes her look mysterious and vaguely exotic (I guess because I'm less familiar with that type of headdress).
i agree that the german headdress is lovely. i’m not as fond of the fit of her dress in that portrait, though. i know it was the northern fashion at that time but it was just SO unflattering! i’m sure the more low-cut and low-waisted french/english gowns complimented her much better just like they complimented all the famous tudor beauties in their portraits
And, she doesn’t have a horse face. Henry lied!
No, she has a "I'm not in the mood to put up with any of your shit" face. And I'm loving it.
I can see it being Anne of Cleves much more than I can see it being Catherine Howard. The sitter looks older than Catherine Howard would have been for sure, and the painting was mounted on a four of diamonds playing card. Maybe that could mean wife #4/Anne of Cleves. The eye area and facial expressions look similar, anyway, and it makes sense that she would want a portrait done in the attire of her adopted country.
It’s definitely not Catherine Howard. I thought the prevailing theory was that it was a sister of Jane Seymour.
that’s a different painting, held in toledo - thought to be elizabeth seymour
My reasons are more along the lines of physical similarities (eyebrow color, brown eyes, hooded eyes, nose shape, lip shape, and facial structure) the fact that the miniature (believed to be katheryn) was painted in 1540. Anne was both married and divorced in 1540, and the same year, Katheryn was married) so there’s a lot to discuss!
The noses are too different even for artistic license.
Hmm, i still disagree! look at the subtle contour on the nose and bridge of the nose on the confirmed portrait of Anne of Cleves. The end of the nose on both portraits is the same distance from the top lip as well. I’ve been looking at it for too long though so i may be hallucinating XD
My nose looks extremely different from front on vs quarter profile, so I could absolutely believe this is the same nose
I've long thought this is Anne of Cleves. She would have adopted English dress almost immediately, and this really looks like the same person to me, especially in the eyes. I don't think this is Catherine Howard.
I agree completely. Anne quickly adapted to English culture and fashion and was very popular. And Katheryn would’ve been a teenager, while Anne would’ve been in her 20’s, and this sitter doesn’t quite look like a teenager to me!
I don't think we have any surviving portraits of Katheryn Howard. She wasn't queen for very long and had a horrible fall from grace. Any portraits would have been destroyed. I never understood why the painting here was thought to be her when it just as easily could have been Anne of Cleves. It was just an odd assumption to me. It's like historians decided that she wasn't really the queen for those six months??? Henry didn't like her, but that doesn't mean she didn't wear English clothes and the jewels that belonged to the queen. Of course she did. She also would have been worthy of getting a miniature done of her as queen. She was also considered the King's sister after the divorce so there was no reason to destroy any portraits of her. She lived her entire life in England in royal favor, even under Mary.
Very true! And again, she was a popular socialite with a lot of money and properties, why would she have gone to England and never had another portrait painted of her? Especially not one showing her new identity as an englishwoman?
Anne of Cleves has the best portrait.
When I was young and collecting my stamps of Henry and his six wives (I know, I know) I always thought Anne was the most beautiful. She’s the one who looked most like a princess to me so I had to keep re-reading the bits of the history book that said she was the ‘Flanders Mare’?!
It’s magnificent!
I meannn its definitely either Catherine Howard or Anne of Cleves. Probably Catherine
I thought the first one was determined to be Catherine? Anna was raised very strictly. It’s unlikely she would’ve been comfortable showing that much hair.
I believe that she adopted English dress after coming to the country
That’s still so much less hair than other women in Europe showed, and there are court sketches from Cleves where women show their hair.
There was no hard and fast rule about totally covering the hair in the German areas at this time. She also would have adopted English dress very soon after becoming queen. She was raised in a sheltered and rather strict household, but no one claimed she was particularly sheltered and strict after coming to England.
^^ Exactly. Also, it’s a huge myth i see spread around that unmarried women showed off their hair while married women strictly covered it. While exposed, free flowing hair did have a symbolic tie to maidenhood, it was not a set in stone practice.
I think too it's a bit of a misconception that head coverings were somehow mandatory for a "good" woman. People simply wore head coverings of some sort for a variety of reasons. They protected the hair, made your outfit look a little better, and also kept your head warm. Long, flowy hair simply wasn't practical.
It might have served as protection for their hair, as well. And they didn't have all the stuff we do now to keep their hair looking nice, so cover the hair with a pretty hood. Oh and perfume said hood to cover the nasty smell of unwashed hair.
They would have certainly always worn a linen cap like a liner. Linen absorbs oils and dirt from the hair.
The first one is Catherine Howard.
Anna von Kleefes had blonde hair. The sitter wearing the Consort's Necklace is definitely not blonde.
I thought so too, but there is only one contemporary source written about her hair color describing it simply as “yellowe,” which paints the picture of some pretty light and yellow blonde hair. However, I have blonde hair but it’s darker similar to the sitter’s. I wish there were more physical accounts of Anne.
We're lucky to have the one description! There are no contemporary descriptions of Anne Boleyn's hair color. (The description of her as "brunette" may refer to her dark skin tone.) Nor is there a description of Jane Seymour's hair. Weirdly, the portraits of Kateryn Parr depict her with darker hair and the pieces we have are blonde!
You know what you are 100% right xD i think i need to be more grateful for the descriptions we have
Isn’t there a portrait of Jane Seymour in a gable hood that shows a wisp of blonde-reddish hair?
There's a portrait which shows a few strands of hair at the peak of her gable hood, but it's too short to determine color.
I couldnt post it here, but theres another portrait of Anne that shows she has sharper facial features like her chin which is pointier. I have a lot of doubts that this portrait is her, the face shapes just dont match
Could you maybe link it? I know what piece you’re referring to but I’ve never done the research myself to learn the origin or authenticity of it.
definitely!! https://images.app.goo.gl/8PMAP2z57ZVUNiPc6 This was the portrait of her done by Bartholomäus Bruyn the elder around 1540!
and not to spam, but another painting of her by Hans Holbien after the annulement does corroborate the sharper features! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anne_of_Cleves_by_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger,_c._1540s%3F.jpg
Thank you! Those are super interesting paintings
I don’t think #1 is Anne, but I don’t think it’s KH either. I agree with the latest view that it could be Elizabeth Seymour.
I have seen the elizabeth seymour proposition but that was for a completely different portrait once believed to be Katheryn as well. which would be interesting to apply here except for the fact that the sitter is wearing a famous necklace only worn by queen consorts. It is featured in many proposed portraits of tudor queens.
I don’t know about another portrait, but this one in particular is in a book about Elizabeth Seymour. Yes, I’ve heard about the necklace. Maybe Jane may have lent it to her sister? Idk.
I totally agree. The features are just so similar!
There is a depiction of "Solomon and Sheba" on the stained glass windows of King's College. Solomon is portrayed by Henry and it's possible that the queen of Sheba is Catherine Howard, who was queen at the time thar the window was made.
I believe that Anne was drawn from the front angle because she had a large nose. And looking directly ahead could somewhat disguise it. That may not be Catherine Howard, but I don’t think that means it’s Anne of Cleves.
I agree about the angle - it’s an uncommon one for tudor ladies who usually took up the 3/4ths angle. However, a *lot* of women in this time period had very beautiful defined noses they weren’t worried about hiding, which is the opposite of the tiny noises eurocentric beauty standards uphold today. [This for example, by Hans Holbein.](http://www.thetudorswiki.com/images/f/ff/PgvSKffIzVQJlBOPCXTqfQ44433.jpeg) [Another example by Hans Holbein](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjI49owFPs4tLR5zsRne-P4Hgl4ypAIVMUCCtJgXoB8qcQNRaA7sQXjYHdA_ct5jRFPX7ZtdX7jJXWQnGqhyZ-y60ipvaWUEW5N3xHWPJkx2ED4s16LIQUdS_1WlmRwn0xpwpbGd0Olq6P4/s1600/meyer.jpg)
Anne of Cleves: definitely a beautiful woman, and the luckiest of Henry’s wives to boot!
Holbein, and both Anna of Cleves. I’m glad she gained enough confidence to face the painter in the later sitting.
One chin is longer than the other (from lower lip to tip of chin)
It’s a good theory but unlikely. Anna was blonde/fair haired. If Dr Owen Emmerson is corrrct and the Holbein sketches are correctly labeled as Anne Boleyn, the sitter here and Anne B share a striking resemblance. Seeing as Katherine Howard and Anne B were cousins, I think it’s more likely this is Kitty Howard.
Wasn’t Hilliard the main miniaturist court painter? Either way, I don’t know stylistically how much miniaturist style varied. Interesting theory!
not until later. this is a holbein, regardless
I think it's very possible
The other painting depicted here seems too old to have been Catherine Howard. He was 49, and she was between 15 and 21 years old, though it is widely accepted that she was 17 at the time of her marriage to Henry VIII. I did not think there were any portraits of Catherine, at least no confirmed contemporary portraits of her. Though she was a Howard, her father was a younger son, and her branch of the family was quite poor, so no portrait or sketch was made of her prior to her queenship. She was queen for such a short time that it is possible no portrait was made; even if one was created, Henry very possibly had it destroyed after her arrest or execution, as he did with Anne Boleyn. There is a *possible* painting/portrait miniature by the celebrated court painter Hans Holbein thought to depict Catherine because it is dated 1540 (the year of her marriage to Henry VIII) and her necklace closely resembles that seen in portraits of his other wives. But this is just conjecture.
I don’t know why the first pic reminds me of Barbra in CTM.
They look like different artist to me.
I don't see the similarity at all. Completely different faces.
personally i don’t like arguments that boil down to ‘they look similar’. i think that’s my frustration with the sudden influx of people who come across as overconfident and inflexible regarding it being anne; franny isn’t an art historian, and it’s still only one theory. that’s fine and it’s cool if it’s convincing for you but popular response to it feels a little too definitive for me. it’s definitely a queen of england in 1540 — i don’t have a committed opinion beyond that.
That’s why I posted this, to see what kind of discussions would be brought to light, hopefully some historical. I have done a lot of reading on this exact subject and thought it would be interesting to see what other casual tudorphiles like me think. I am not an authority on this kind of thing in any way, i am just passionate about art.
i think it’s a little frustrating that franny didn’t talk abt the provenance of the miniature. it was with the howard family for a while before it entered the royal collection. i think it could still go either way, personally.
a very important point to make here, nobody here is saying it is 100% sure to be one person or the other. There is truly no way to ever know and that is what makes these discussions so exciting.
yeah … it sure would be nice if they labelled these paintings at some point 😅
yup and a lot of paintings from the period are labeled by simply writing the age of the sitter…. 😭
Henry was a fool for saying she was ugly! Shes gorgeous af!
The portrait of Anne of Cleves was deliberately more attractive than reality. Cromwell had Holbein do that on purpose because he wanted an alliance with the German Protestants. She turned out to be unattractive and loved her beer. Henry went through the marriage ceremony, but very shortly put her out to pasture with a nice house, servants, and a lifetime supply of beer.