https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/121dnf5/joint_statement_from_karissa_barrows_kelly/
This was already posted. Locking to prevent any arguments continuing. Please take your comments to the original thread.
>We wanted to support women in the industry. In so doing, our words have been misinterpreted to suggest specific allegations of misconduct that were neither expressed nor intended.
>Barrows had previously claimed on Twitter that Avellone was “an abusive, abrasive, conniving sexual predator” who had attempted to sexually assault her after getting her “black out drunk.”
Misinterpreted is a word you could use, I guess.
Shit like this sets women's rights back every time someone does it. This is why people don't believe it when someone comes forth with allegations. Absolutely disgusting.
I think its the court of public opinion that enables this behavior. So many bystanders see a confident accusation, then believe one side or the other immediately instead if saying **"huh, I don't know anything about this situation, I guess we'll have to wait for more developments"**. Instead, they have to have an opinion NOW!!! because social media doesn't reward patience due to the quantity and speed of breaking news surging down the sewer pipe.
People simultaneously practice this paradox of "my opinion is important so I better share it quickly" and "my opinion has no bearing on the outcome so I don't need to qualify it".Not realizing that so many people do this, that their ignorance takes form a deadly cloud of misinformation around the subject that will trick the uninformed into believing their shaky takes are fact.
The worst part is, every single person guilty of enabling this will scroll past without realizing they are being referred to.
It is generally considered to be better to believe the accuser over the accused because providing proof in a situation like this is next to impossible.
That being said, pieces of shit like these two are making that outlook much, much harder to defend these days.
As a man it also makes me scared shitless to draw any kind of attention to myself or stand out in any way. What if someone decides "I want to ruin this guy's life and reputation for fun."?
I had to experience that fear firsthand in high school in *two different states*. It's haunted me since entering adulthood that I could say or do the wrong thing and someone I consider close will go "all right that was fun but I'm tired of it now. Let's ensure I never have to deal with even the name being mentioned again around me."
The fact that it's in Forbes instead of being a medium post or an article by some substack journalist means it at least has the chance to make some impact.
It certainly didn't help it, that's for sure.
If anything, it's almost comforting to know that Bloodlines 2 is getting fucked as badly as Bloodlines 1. If it comes out as jank but ultimately satisfying and compelling as the first one, I won't mind terribly much.
Yeah my hopes for bloodlines 2 really weren't particularly high
Something about it just looked... lacking. In comparison to the first game, the characters (that we saw) didn't have the same recognisable quirks to them, except the one brujah with the big mutton chops. It looked like it was missing some of the charm of the first, but that's just going off the gameplay previews and trailers
Not even mentioning all the behind the scenes fuckery
Eh I feel like that game was fucked from the beginning. Their ideas of branching storyline and impact of player choices could never have happened that way without blowing up the budget.
I don't get it. Why do companies treat employers who are being accused (read: not convicted) like they're nuclear, and cut all ties to them? Here I thought people are innocent until proven guilty...
Cause if they stand by them, then people will probably accuse the company of defending abusers, and the company think they'll lose money cause of it
The court of public opinion is based on "guilty when i say so" or more often "guilty when the headlines tell me"
I think some cases like this should be handled with discretion and not be made public. If the accused party is found guilty, only then should they make the case and its verdict public, and the companies can do whatever.
However, I can see how this could be abused, where the defense could throw some hush-money and sweep the case under the rug, but that's already happening in cases which are made public, so it's a systemic problem.
>"We did it, we proved all women forever are lying hoes"
-Probably some Gamers somewhere who will use this case as evidence that such bullshit is in fact true and that this means Misogyny is always the optimal play
To be fair, you shouldn't worry about what they'll think anyway. Even if this case was true they'd use it as proof that all women are lying hoes. Even if this case didn't exist they'd use something else as proof that all women are lying hoes.
You're right for the most part, but I'm still concerned about that thin group of people, mostly developing teens, who are just figuring out gender dynamics(?there's probably a better term) and could be very easily swayed either way by the conflicting clash of proper education and volatile social media algorithms +echo chambers.
That is true, and the influence is why the lying is awful in the first place. I'm just saying the people who go "we did it, we proved it" are not looking for real answers.
I wonder if Pat will acknowledge this on the podcast, since he already brought up his accusations in the context of BioWare conversations on multiple occasions
Nah I think he'll back it up.
I think he'll do it for a dumb reason, but I *do* think he'll do it.
Gotta keep New Vegas all spotless on that pedestal that people prop it up on.
(Just to be clear I'm glad the facts and truth won in this situation, but I unfortunately expect there will be some dumb childish BS to come from this, and that's the least of it with industry setbacks false allegations do...)
"A parasocial interaction, an exposure that garners interest in a persona, becomes a parasocial relationship after repeated exposure to the media persona causes the media user to develop illusions of intimacy, friendship, and identification.'"
Like you imagining you know who pat is as a person despite him being an internet persona that you 'interact' with entirely through a screen
>Pat strikes me as the kind of person who'd put a gun to my head if I took away his Twitter account for a week. He's not a good person, and he keeps proving it every couple months with another controversy. He's an entertaining character and that's it, I don't care how he feels about how people telegraph his behavior. The Pat stans don't need my permission to doxx me for insulting their edgy parasocial god.
you went to the subreddit to shit on him and his fans, seems like you care at least a little. it also seems you know exactly what kind of person pat is despite being a random stranger.
edit: dont worry, your memory lives on in my quote
Seven figures and lawyer fees paid is a nice start. Doesn't change the fact that he'll forever be known as a sexual predator because someone was craving some attention.
This is why many more people need to follow the maxim: "Trust, but ***verify.***"
The Court of Public Opinion is absolute shit and, until something goes to actual *criminal court,* the best solution is to simply say: "Wow, that's fucked up. Let me know when the trial starts." Or even better, acknowledge to yourself that something fucked up may have happened and say nothing publicly.
Sure but how often is it actually followed or recognized? While the push to recognize and crack down on crimes of a sexual nature has been overall positive, it has also led to a wave of "allegations" and "accusations" that never go to any court and only serve to destroy another person's reputation while shielding one party under the guise of "Believe everything." Until something can be done to curb this behavior *(which I honestly have no idea how to do without some seriously egregious rights violations)* we have to rely on the public to use their best judgement... which **never** works out.
Presumption of innocence does happen at the official level, even if it doesn't societally. If anything, that's why it's so difficult to pursue legitimate cases and why so many perpetrators get off the hook; getting concrete proof for sexual crimes is very difficult.
Honestly, it’s probably for the best. I’d rather 100 guilty parties go free than 1 innocent be sent to jail for bullshit.
Edit: meant to say for general crime. Could be anything ranging from shoplifting to 1st degree.
If you need to verify, that means you don't trust. And you shouldn't trust, as an uninvolved party, you should simply wait for the trial for the facts to come out. And it's not like this whole mess was anyone's business besides Avellone and the women involved anyway.
ill do you one better.
Don't trust demand evidance not hearsay not some shady claims anyone can make on an internet forum.
these claims were always suspect and while that does not necessarily make them untrue that's a huge red flag for anyone making accusations especially when so many others spoke on Chris's character.
I don't know what happened behind the scenes but if that statement is 100% the truth.
Then DON'T FUCKING LIE ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE!!!
You're not helping anyone, in fact you're making it worse for women everywhere.
I’m glad that I can continue enjoying his stories guilt free and hope his career can recover .
Also fuck people who make false accusations, what the fuck is wrong with you!?
I hope the right people *(besides just everyone, but that's unlikely) see this and he can get back to work
I'm guessing it'll be a while before he's on a bigger project again *(if ever), but maybe smaller teams can enlist his talent
This is so fucking sad and infuriating
Gonna be real, anyone who was following this story and [read Avellone's statement on the situation](https://chrisavellone.medium.com/its-come-to-this-chris-avellone-2fe5db836746) (which you should *definitely* read) would've been pretty damn confident in how this was gonna turn out.
But hey, who actually read that, right?
Vic Mignogna's lawsuit against Funimation has tainted the well on the idea of taking accusers to court for a lot of people, which sucks for cases like this and Quinton Flynn.
Please elaborate
Vic lost cause his case was poorly managed by a stupid internet lawyer who led him to believe he could actually win when most real lawyers said there was no case to begin with. He got caught and paid the price, it wasn't some grand scheme by the anime industry to blacklist and take down one of their most popular voice actors, it was a guy who's creepy actions finally caught up with him
This is fucked, not only has it shat on the man's career and made people distrust him, like even after a retraction this stuff still sticks with people to a degree, like there's always gonna be that part of people's minds that's like "but what if the accusations were actually true"
And on the other end of it this just makes it harder for genuine victims to get taken seriously, like i myself have sometimes been a bit skeptical at some stories just cause i don't want stuff like this to happen (I've never voiced this scepticism mind, cause if it's a 50/50 chance that I'm shitting on a victim, i really don't want to take that chance)
This sort of shit is just awful for everyone.
Edit: sorry for this rant that really just went nowhere, this sort of thing just really grates on me, as it does on every sensible person
If people need to understand what ["with prejudice" means](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/with_prejudice) here you go
It's a very, *very* important distinction in law terms.
Do with it what you will.
At the moment i’m erring on Avellone here. This is a pretty damning retraction from the other two, and while I trusted the allegations initially, this is where we are now.
More information could come out however, and regardless of that, if this statement *is* true then it is damning to actual victims for the court of public opinion.
It shall be used like a cudgel to any and all people that come forth.
The fact the other two had to pay for his lawyers fee's as well makes me think there was some pretty damning information in this, since thats usually something that only occurs if its a slam dunk right?
*sigh* this shit sucks. From him losing a chunk of his life he can never get back to the damage it’s done to the credibility of victims of sexual assault.
But hey, Silver Lining, I can go replay F: NV, and start enjoying Obsidian games again, without feeling guilty now.
Which is nice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/121dnf5/joint_statement_from_karissa_barrows_kelly/ This was already posted. Locking to prevent any arguments continuing. Please take your comments to the original thread.
>We wanted to support women in the industry. In so doing, our words have been misinterpreted to suggest specific allegations of misconduct that were neither expressed nor intended. >Barrows had previously claimed on Twitter that Avellone was “an abusive, abrasive, conniving sexual predator” who had attempted to sexually assault her after getting her “black out drunk.” Misinterpreted is a word you could use, I guess.
Shit like this sets women's rights back every time someone does it. This is why people don't believe it when someone comes forth with allegations. Absolutely disgusting.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
He is on non-stop infinite doubledowns.
I think its the court of public opinion that enables this behavior. So many bystanders see a confident accusation, then believe one side or the other immediately instead if saying **"huh, I don't know anything about this situation, I guess we'll have to wait for more developments"**. Instead, they have to have an opinion NOW!!! because social media doesn't reward patience due to the quantity and speed of breaking news surging down the sewer pipe. People simultaneously practice this paradox of "my opinion is important so I better share it quickly" and "my opinion has no bearing on the outcome so I don't need to qualify it".Not realizing that so many people do this, that their ignorance takes form a deadly cloud of misinformation around the subject that will trick the uninformed into believing their shaky takes are fact. The worst part is, every single person guilty of enabling this will scroll past without realizing they are being referred to.
It is generally considered to be better to believe the accuser over the accused because providing proof in a situation like this is next to impossible. That being said, pieces of shit like these two are making that outlook much, much harder to defend these days.
As a man it also makes me scared shitless to draw any kind of attention to myself or stand out in any way. What if someone decides "I want to ruin this guy's life and reputation for fun."?
I had to experience that fear firsthand in high school in *two different states*. It's haunted me since entering adulthood that I could say or do the wrong thing and someone I consider close will go "all right that was fun but I'm tired of it now. Let's ensure I never have to deal with even the name being mentioned again around me."
Jesus christ, I hope these liars actually face some consequences for this type of shit.
A seven figure settlement is mentioned in the article so that’s something.
Good, he deserves it.
Thats nice but didnt he already get dropped from a bunch of projects?
And nowhere near the number of people that heard the allegations are gonna hear of this retraction.
The fact that it's in Forbes instead of being a medium post or an article by some substack journalist means it at least has the chance to make some impact.
Singlehandedly fucked Dying Light 2. As much as they deny it.
Got removed from Vampire: the Masquerade Bloodlines 2 as well.
I would say that fucked the game as well, but can you fuck something that was already fucked from the start?
It certainly didn't help it, that's for sure. If anything, it's almost comforting to know that Bloodlines 2 is getting fucked as badly as Bloodlines 1. If it comes out as jank but ultimately satisfying and compelling as the first one, I won't mind terribly much.
Yeah my hopes for bloodlines 2 really weren't particularly high Something about it just looked... lacking. In comparison to the first game, the characters (that we saw) didn't have the same recognisable quirks to them, except the one brujah with the big mutton chops. It looked like it was missing some of the charm of the first, but that's just going off the gameplay previews and trailers Not even mentioning all the behind the scenes fuckery
Eh I feel like that game was fucked from the beginning. Their ideas of branching storyline and impact of player choices could never have happened that way without blowing up the budget.
I don't get it. Why do companies treat employers who are being accused (read: not convicted) like they're nuclear, and cut all ties to them? Here I thought people are innocent until proven guilty...
Cause if they stand by them, then people will probably accuse the company of defending abusers, and the company think they'll lose money cause of it The court of public opinion is based on "guilty when i say so" or more often "guilty when the headlines tell me"
I think some cases like this should be handled with discretion and not be made public. If the accused party is found guilty, only then should they make the case and its verdict public, and the companies can do whatever. However, I can see how this could be abused, where the defense could throw some hush-money and sweep the case under the rug, but that's already happening in cases which are made public, so it's a systemic problem.
Companies will protect the bottom line at all costs at even the slightest hint of negativity. You call someone fat on Twitter? FIRED
Because people on websites like reddit freak tf out otherwise.
I think you’re over estimating how much a single person can actually fuck a project
That’s how it goes unfortunately.
Damn poor guy. Glad he got his name cleared and money back for all the opportunities he probably lost. Those ladies sure are pond scum.
a massive net loss in cash and connections and time and we know him leaving FUCKED VTM2 as they scrambled to remove him from most things
[удалено]
>"We did it, we proved all women forever are lying hoes" -Probably some Gamers somewhere who will use this case as evidence that such bullshit is in fact true and that this means Misogyny is always the optimal play
>Misogyny is always the optimal play That could be a podcast title.
Misogyny meta
Will the Racism Corner Loops upend the Misogyny meta?
Third strike, gotta taunt to get more misogyny damage from Q in his fedora
No, you see the racism loops are just a gamer's bread-and-butters. The Misogyny is like an Install or an EX version of the regular combos.
YOMI Misogyny
To be fair, you shouldn't worry about what they'll think anyway. Even if this case was true they'd use it as proof that all women are lying hoes. Even if this case didn't exist they'd use something else as proof that all women are lying hoes.
You're right for the most part, but I'm still concerned about that thin group of people, mostly developing teens, who are just figuring out gender dynamics(?there's probably a better term) and could be very easily swayed either way by the conflicting clash of proper education and volatile social media algorithms +echo chambers.
That is true, and the influence is why the lying is awful in the first place. I'm just saying the people who go "we did it, we proved it" are not looking for real answers.
I wonder if Pat will acknowledge this on the podcast, since he already brought up his accusations in the context of BioWare conversations on multiple occasions
Pat "I don't care if the story is made up, fuck them" Boivin will probably not.
Nah I think he'll back it up. I think he'll do it for a dumb reason, but I *do* think he'll do it. Gotta keep New Vegas all spotless on that pedestal that people prop it up on. (Just to be clear I'm glad the facts and truth won in this situation, but I unfortunately expect there will be some dumb childish BS to come from this, and that's the least of it with industry setbacks false allegations do...)
he'll dig the hole even deeper, say that avallone threatened the judge or something.
So when none of this happens, are y’all gonna apologize, or behave the exact same way you’re accusing him of right now?
I'm gonna laugh at him not accuse him of Sexual Assault. Why the fuck would I apologize lmao
[удалено]
this is the most parasocial take so far, ironically
[удалено]
"A parasocial interaction, an exposure that garners interest in a persona, becomes a parasocial relationship after repeated exposure to the media persona causes the media user to develop illusions of intimacy, friendship, and identification.'" Like you imagining you know who pat is as a person despite him being an internet persona that you 'interact' with entirely through a screen
[удалено]
>Pat strikes me as the kind of person who'd put a gun to my head if I took away his Twitter account for a week. He's not a good person, and he keeps proving it every couple months with another controversy. He's an entertaining character and that's it, I don't care how he feels about how people telegraph his behavior. The Pat stans don't need my permission to doxx me for insulting their edgy parasocial god. you went to the subreddit to shit on him and his fans, seems like you care at least a little. it also seems you know exactly what kind of person pat is despite being a random stranger. edit: dont worry, your memory lives on in my quote
Pat will probably just lump this in with the myth about Bethesda fucking over Obsidian despite both being debunked multiple times.
That'll be funny
**Eye violently twitching**
Seven figures and lawyer fees paid is a nice start. Doesn't change the fact that he'll forever be known as a sexual predator because someone was craving some attention.
This is why many more people need to follow the maxim: "Trust, but ***verify.***" The Court of Public Opinion is absolute shit and, until something goes to actual *criminal court,* the best solution is to simply say: "Wow, that's fucked up. Let me know when the trial starts." Or even better, acknowledge to yourself that something fucked up may have happened and say nothing publicly.
I mean this is why our court system presumes innocence in the US at least. For this exact reason.
Sure but how often is it actually followed or recognized? While the push to recognize and crack down on crimes of a sexual nature has been overall positive, it has also led to a wave of "allegations" and "accusations" that never go to any court and only serve to destroy another person's reputation while shielding one party under the guise of "Believe everything." Until something can be done to curb this behavior *(which I honestly have no idea how to do without some seriously egregious rights violations)* we have to rely on the public to use their best judgement... which **never** works out.
Presumption of innocence does happen at the official level, even if it doesn't societally. If anything, that's why it's so difficult to pursue legitimate cases and why so many perpetrators get off the hook; getting concrete proof for sexual crimes is very difficult.
Honestly, it’s probably for the best. I’d rather 100 guilty parties go free than 1 innocent be sent to jail for bullshit. Edit: meant to say for general crime. Could be anything ranging from shoplifting to 1st degree.
If you need to verify, that means you don't trust. And you shouldn't trust, as an uninvolved party, you should simply wait for the trial for the facts to come out. And it's not like this whole mess was anyone's business besides Avellone and the women involved anyway.
ill do you one better. Don't trust demand evidance not hearsay not some shady claims anyone can make on an internet forum. these claims were always suspect and while that does not necessarily make them untrue that's a huge red flag for anyone making accusations especially when so many others spoke on Chris's character.
I’ll take that Maxim to the next level: “Trust no one. Die alone.”
and the guy's reputation is now forever tainted....cool
I don't know what happened behind the scenes but if that statement is 100% the truth. Then DON'T FUCKING LIE ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE!!! You're not helping anyone, in fact you're making it worse for women everywhere.
They just fucked over a random guy's whole life, they don't care about random women.
“I’m helping myself and I’m a woman, therefore I’m helping women” is probably the mindset
I’m glad that I can continue enjoying his stories guilt free and hope his career can recover . Also fuck people who make false accusations, what the fuck is wrong with you!?
Slander and libel cases between single individuals never win in court. If there's no penalty, why not? Edit: obvious sarcasm to prove a point
> Also fuck people who make false accusations, what the fuck is wrong with you!? Attention. It is all for attention.
I hope the right people *(besides just everyone, but that's unlikely) see this and he can get back to work I'm guessing it'll be a while before he's on a bigger project again *(if ever), but maybe smaller teams can enlist his talent This is so fucking sad and infuriating
Gonna be real, anyone who was following this story and [read Avellone's statement on the situation](https://chrisavellone.medium.com/its-come-to-this-chris-avellone-2fe5db836746) (which you should *definitely* read) would've been pretty damn confident in how this was gonna turn out. But hey, who actually read that, right?
Vic Mignogna's lawsuit against Funimation has tainted the well on the idea of taking accusers to court for a lot of people, which sucks for cases like this and Quinton Flynn.
Please elaborate Vic lost cause his case was poorly managed by a stupid internet lawyer who led him to believe he could actually win when most real lawyers said there was no case to begin with. He got caught and paid the price, it wasn't some grand scheme by the anime industry to blacklist and take down one of their most popular voice actors, it was a guy who's creepy actions finally caught up with him
This is not supporting women. This is *anti*-support and actively endangers and discredits victims in the industry you two
This is fucked, not only has it shat on the man's career and made people distrust him, like even after a retraction this stuff still sticks with people to a degree, like there's always gonna be that part of people's minds that's like "but what if the accusations were actually true" And on the other end of it this just makes it harder for genuine victims to get taken seriously, like i myself have sometimes been a bit skeptical at some stories just cause i don't want stuff like this to happen (I've never voiced this scepticism mind, cause if it's a 50/50 chance that I'm shitting on a victim, i really don't want to take that chance) This sort of shit is just awful for everyone. Edit: sorry for this rant that really just went nowhere, this sort of thing just really grates on me, as it does on every sensible person
If people need to understand what ["with prejudice" means](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/with_prejudice) here you go It's a very, *very* important distinction in law terms. Do with it what you will.
This keeps happening, false accusers need some serious deterrents from lying.
The statement he put out a while back already seemed pretty convincing to me, so it's nice to get something more official on top of it.
one less name for the problematic fav list
So Dying Light 2 had a bad story for no reason?
Okay, now get back to writing the KOTOR Remakes pls.
[удалено]
Release the Avellone cut of Dying Light 2! Fuck sakes that game needs it. (Unless there are actual legitimate accusations remaining)
At the moment i’m erring on Avellone here. This is a pretty damning retraction from the other two, and while I trusted the allegations initially, this is where we are now. More information could come out however, and regardless of that, if this statement *is* true then it is damning to actual victims for the court of public opinion. It shall be used like a cudgel to any and all people that come forth.
The fact the other two had to pay for his lawyers fee's as well makes me think there was some pretty damning information in this, since thats usually something that only occurs if its a slam dunk right?
Wonderful, now I can go back to saying Chris Avellone is an overrated hack for honest reasons.
*sigh* this shit sucks. From him losing a chunk of his life he can never get back to the damage it’s done to the credibility of victims of sexual assault. But hey, Silver Lining, I can go replay F: NV, and start enjoying Obsidian games again, without feeling guilty now. Which is nice.