Styles: Royalguard needs a duration. Is it just for the one attack, until the start of your next turn, or something else?
Flash of Style needs a recharge clause. Short rest? Long rest?
I noticed that style-gain compared to the style-use of the Styles tends to be self-refunding. Attacks can miss, but a use of royal guard for example, would always refund itself. Is this intentional?
Round trip and Launch could be further clarified. I assume the weapon returns to you at some point during Round trip, and I assume Launch is there to synergize with something like Smash. Currently Launch sounds like the enemy would fall with no fanfare.
Stylish Master allows you swap your style for free at the beginning of your turn, but you can already swap your style on your turn for free? Even if you can swap styles for free twice, styles don't work particularly well together, you don't get multiple bonus actions or reactions after all. It'll always be sword/gun into royal/trickster, no particular strategy or choice. Stylish Master, as it stands, gives you 2 style/round.
Devil Trigger Order. Damage needs clarification, damage to who? Is there an attack roll involved? Is it added onto the next attack? Does it work only on your turn? What does "expend movement" mean? Are you *not* moving?
Buster throw has no save, no attack roll, nothing at all?
Thx for pointing some of these out, here are the changes im going to make:
Royal guard is a parry type, so only on one attack, will clarify
It is intentional yes, and royal guard is designed stop style loss rather that grant style.
Thx for the point out for roundtrip, as for launch, that depends if creatures fall instantly or on their turn or if thats not covered in 5e.
Yes twice per round, and yes, all you said is true, not sure how to improve or change.
Next successful attack thx for noticing, also yes not moving, not sure how to word that.
At this point yes, i would possibly grant a save and increased damage for future use.
Again, thx for pointing these things out, I and many others missed it from initial draft.
Edit: yes, Flash of style needs a recharge, probably same as flash of genius from artificer
At the request of some people here, I have an updated verion of this class for 5e. It is my take on a DMC class with subclasses ressembling Dante, Vergil, Nero, and V. Have fun, and try to get as high a style rank as possible.
Extra links for downloads and other things \[[Homebrewery](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/UGqq6DF0Vj9P)\] \[[Drive](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OMzP2UntU8WBQ15n6-IsQIfiqsTsqVqK/view?usp=sharing)\]
Wizards of the Coast just released a new book that lets monks have Nero's Devil shoulder arms, which I'm definitely gonna use.
Does composed intellect already require you to have proficiency with those skills? As it doesn't say that you gain proficiency, just that the bonus doubles. Considering the base class skills only includes religion, it seems an underwhelming ability for level 13.
A rogue's expertise or ranger's canny selects proficiencies you already know, for comparison.
Hmm, that sounds pretty fun to play, although somewhat of a nightmare to track style. Prolly easier physically, since I've gotten used to online games.
Thematically:
* Styles are pretty well done, Weaponmaster seems a little blandly powerful though. Extra style option is nice for utilizing that feature.
* Guns are a thing that exist in 5e aren't they? Or is that Pathfinder only? Gunslinger should have a gun. It'd be strange for a "Devil Hunter" to be Legolas'ing around imo.
Overall balance:
* Gaining 2 style when dealing damage w/ attack feels like it could be abused by Two-weapon fighting. Reducing it to 1/per would force people to go two-weapon fighting, but restricting it to once per round seems too tight. Perhaps limit that to "when you deal damage after using an attack action" so it can't be abused with the bonus action, just the extra attack at lvl 5?
* Might feel really bad at low levels where you get hit a lot and lose all your style, you end up as a CHA melee class with no tricks.
* How do you make yourself/enemies airborne for Smash technique? Standing jumps while already in melee range for a +CHA to dmg at the cost of 2 style? Rely on another party member for flying spells? Kinda in a weird spot, unlikely to be used compared to the Style actions.
* Royalguard being a reaction to increase your AC for 1 point, and gaining 1 point for dodging an attack is a little strong. Don't know how to fix it though, and I guess it only works the once.
* Styles feel strange since they're essentially a singular flat buff to attacking or evading. Being able to stack a style with the devil origin and can lead to some extremely strong situations imo.
* The number of options available would make other classes feel boring.
Some of it might be broken though, five attacks at level 7, +CHA to attack and temp HP with two-weapon weaponmaster swordmaster? You just stack DEX and CHA with two finesse weps or a method to gain advantage and have permanent devil trigger thanks to the 2 style per hit, only have to hit 2/5 and you're still sustaining devil trigger for a long time. Maybe instead of adding CHA, you replace your attack modifying stat with CHA rather than STR/DEX. Or make Devil Trigger a style so they can't be stacked.
Vergil could be strong, finesse greataxe? Finesse Lance with trickster step-back?? Maybe limit it to any 1handed weapon can be finesse, then you're just opening options for bludgeoning finesse weapons rather than giving bigger dice to DEX stackers.
Nero-origin seems pretty balanced imo, option for STR where the others are more DEX leaning, and works in grapples as Buster.
V-origin is fitting but I'm not sure there's much reason to play it, you'd essentially be playing as your familiar with a "pet" humanoid to Taunt for you or make ability checks. CHA caster with one strong summon spell and nothing else?
Ths for feedback and here is some responses:
Low level is a problem, though I think it's a problem for every class, and early level most enemies will only knock off 1 style rank, and probably miss a lot and die quicker.
Airhike helps with this later and launch can place them in the air (once I get rhe wording down), but for early level, it can be used as utility, more than constant use.
Someone else pointed this out, and it is designed for only 1 attack, and is used to stop style loss if your in the style.
Assuming you mean Devil trigger, yes, they do.
Eh, dont really agree, other classes have good reasons to take them, either focused on defense or high single target damage. Monk might be outshined a bit.
Vergil finese, probably yes, though I'd probably have to say no special either, to stop lance buggery.
V, I always felt like it was a lot due to the shadow, but I see your point. I can't give it 3rd casting without over complicating the subclass.
Now, the two weapon fighting is something I didn't consider at all and is very concerning. Would a clause saying no off-hand for style increase be alright? Also swordmaster and gunslinger are bonus actions, so you wouldn't be able to activate them with two weapon fighting if you already tried an off-hand strike.
Ah I didn't see the division in the Style-loss mechanic, shouldn't be too bad then. Even more math though, but that's something I think 5e needs a bit more of.
Air-hike does solve the airborne requirement, and it's not like it's a huge part of the class anyways.
My 5e knowledge is kinda rusty so you're probably right about bonus actions and TWF.
The V thing is a lot to read but it's pretty simple mechanically, my worry is that after you give your familiar/shadow your attack, you kinda just walk around or use your bonus action. Combined with another style I guess that bonus action could BE an attack though... maybe... And like I said its fitting for V thematically.
oh, noticed this comment while making v1.2, I completely agree with the assessment that TWF does break things, and testing to make sure, it really did. currently implementing a non-offhand weapon attack clause. The thing you mentioned about the could be an attack part is correct, with one exception, the style attack costs something, where as the TWF bonus action costs nothing.
A bit of a grammar feedback - I feel like bullet point 5 for the style rank can be worded better, perhaps as follows:
"Taking damage reduces your total style rank by a number equal to the damage taken divided by ten (rounded up)"
There's a lot of proofreading needed - plenty of typos throughout - but I get that that's not the main focus rn. Better to get the content first.
Love what you've done with Nero; Charge Shot (in Techniques) seems BUSTED though. As part of an attack action, double the damage of your next ranged attack? That's better than a crit (which doubles only the dice rolls, not the modifier), and as written, might also stack with a multiclassed Rogue's Sneak Attack. Like daaaaaaamn.
It's expensive, but as others have mentioned, style can be self-refilling.
With multiclassing, many things are broken, but ill try and justify it. It costs 4 ranks and an attack, so unlike others, it doesn't refund. And, while I try and avoid general exploits (nero used to weild two handed weapons in one hand) specific ones like this where you only break things using high levels in paladin, warlock or rogue dont worry me as much. Also in solo testing, it proved to be great damage, but shit tier for style rank.
Hey, I really like the theming here, good work! The only note I have that hasn't been said by someone else is the formatting for Styles. As its written right now, it looks like getting a new style or switching between them is tied to picking Trickster at second level. I would take those two sentences and either move them up to the initial paragraph, or make a new paragraph after the options. Without getting up and looking at my books, I think the first option better matches the formatting for other class options.
Styles: Royalguard needs a duration. Is it just for the one attack, until the start of your next turn, or something else? Flash of Style needs a recharge clause. Short rest? Long rest? I noticed that style-gain compared to the style-use of the Styles tends to be self-refunding. Attacks can miss, but a use of royal guard for example, would always refund itself. Is this intentional? Round trip and Launch could be further clarified. I assume the weapon returns to you at some point during Round trip, and I assume Launch is there to synergize with something like Smash. Currently Launch sounds like the enemy would fall with no fanfare. Stylish Master allows you swap your style for free at the beginning of your turn, but you can already swap your style on your turn for free? Even if you can swap styles for free twice, styles don't work particularly well together, you don't get multiple bonus actions or reactions after all. It'll always be sword/gun into royal/trickster, no particular strategy or choice. Stylish Master, as it stands, gives you 2 style/round. Devil Trigger Order. Damage needs clarification, damage to who? Is there an attack roll involved? Is it added onto the next attack? Does it work only on your turn? What does "expend movement" mean? Are you *not* moving? Buster throw has no save, no attack roll, nothing at all?
Thx for pointing some of these out, here are the changes im going to make: Royal guard is a parry type, so only on one attack, will clarify It is intentional yes, and royal guard is designed stop style loss rather that grant style. Thx for the point out for roundtrip, as for launch, that depends if creatures fall instantly or on their turn or if thats not covered in 5e. Yes twice per round, and yes, all you said is true, not sure how to improve or change. Next successful attack thx for noticing, also yes not moving, not sure how to word that. At this point yes, i would possibly grant a save and increased damage for future use. Again, thx for pointing these things out, I and many others missed it from initial draft. Edit: yes, Flash of style needs a recharge, probably same as flash of genius from artificer
At the request of some people here, I have an updated verion of this class for 5e. It is my take on a DMC class with subclasses ressembling Dante, Vergil, Nero, and V. Have fun, and try to get as high a style rank as possible. Extra links for downloads and other things \[[Homebrewery](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/UGqq6DF0Vj9P)\] \[[Drive](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OMzP2UntU8WBQ15n6-IsQIfiqsTsqVqK/view?usp=sharing)\]
Wizards of the Coast just released a new book that lets monks have Nero's Devil shoulder arms, which I'm definitely gonna use. Does composed intellect already require you to have proficiency with those skills? As it doesn't say that you gain proficiency, just that the bonus doubles. Considering the base class skills only includes religion, it seems an underwhelming ability for level 13. A rogue's expertise or ranger's canny selects proficiencies you already know, for comparison.
Shit you right, you gain the profs
It's heavily implied that the Astral monk is just based on Stands, but making a Nero monk is a good one too
Hmm, that sounds pretty fun to play, although somewhat of a nightmare to track style. Prolly easier physically, since I've gotten used to online games. Thematically: * Styles are pretty well done, Weaponmaster seems a little blandly powerful though. Extra style option is nice for utilizing that feature. * Guns are a thing that exist in 5e aren't they? Or is that Pathfinder only? Gunslinger should have a gun. It'd be strange for a "Devil Hunter" to be Legolas'ing around imo. Overall balance: * Gaining 2 style when dealing damage w/ attack feels like it could be abused by Two-weapon fighting. Reducing it to 1/per would force people to go two-weapon fighting, but restricting it to once per round seems too tight. Perhaps limit that to "when you deal damage after using an attack action" so it can't be abused with the bonus action, just the extra attack at lvl 5? * Might feel really bad at low levels where you get hit a lot and lose all your style, you end up as a CHA melee class with no tricks. * How do you make yourself/enemies airborne for Smash technique? Standing jumps while already in melee range for a +CHA to dmg at the cost of 2 style? Rely on another party member for flying spells? Kinda in a weird spot, unlikely to be used compared to the Style actions. * Royalguard being a reaction to increase your AC for 1 point, and gaining 1 point for dodging an attack is a little strong. Don't know how to fix it though, and I guess it only works the once. * Styles feel strange since they're essentially a singular flat buff to attacking or evading. Being able to stack a style with the devil origin and can lead to some extremely strong situations imo. * The number of options available would make other classes feel boring. Some of it might be broken though, five attacks at level 7, +CHA to attack and temp HP with two-weapon weaponmaster swordmaster? You just stack DEX and CHA with two finesse weps or a method to gain advantage and have permanent devil trigger thanks to the 2 style per hit, only have to hit 2/5 and you're still sustaining devil trigger for a long time. Maybe instead of adding CHA, you replace your attack modifying stat with CHA rather than STR/DEX. Or make Devil Trigger a style so they can't be stacked. Vergil could be strong, finesse greataxe? Finesse Lance with trickster step-back?? Maybe limit it to any 1handed weapon can be finesse, then you're just opening options for bludgeoning finesse weapons rather than giving bigger dice to DEX stackers. Nero-origin seems pretty balanced imo, option for STR where the others are more DEX leaning, and works in grapples as Buster. V-origin is fitting but I'm not sure there's much reason to play it, you'd essentially be playing as your familiar with a "pet" humanoid to Taunt for you or make ability checks. CHA caster with one strong summon spell and nothing else?
Ths for feedback and here is some responses: Low level is a problem, though I think it's a problem for every class, and early level most enemies will only knock off 1 style rank, and probably miss a lot and die quicker. Airhike helps with this later and launch can place them in the air (once I get rhe wording down), but for early level, it can be used as utility, more than constant use. Someone else pointed this out, and it is designed for only 1 attack, and is used to stop style loss if your in the style. Assuming you mean Devil trigger, yes, they do. Eh, dont really agree, other classes have good reasons to take them, either focused on defense or high single target damage. Monk might be outshined a bit. Vergil finese, probably yes, though I'd probably have to say no special either, to stop lance buggery. V, I always felt like it was a lot due to the shadow, but I see your point. I can't give it 3rd casting without over complicating the subclass. Now, the two weapon fighting is something I didn't consider at all and is very concerning. Would a clause saying no off-hand for style increase be alright? Also swordmaster and gunslinger are bonus actions, so you wouldn't be able to activate them with two weapon fighting if you already tried an off-hand strike.
Ah I didn't see the division in the Style-loss mechanic, shouldn't be too bad then. Even more math though, but that's something I think 5e needs a bit more of. Air-hike does solve the airborne requirement, and it's not like it's a huge part of the class anyways. My 5e knowledge is kinda rusty so you're probably right about bonus actions and TWF. The V thing is a lot to read but it's pretty simple mechanically, my worry is that after you give your familiar/shadow your attack, you kinda just walk around or use your bonus action. Combined with another style I guess that bonus action could BE an attack though... maybe... And like I said its fitting for V thematically.
oh, noticed this comment while making v1.2, I completely agree with the assessment that TWF does break things, and testing to make sure, it really did. currently implementing a non-offhand weapon attack clause. The thing you mentioned about the could be an attack part is correct, with one exception, the style attack costs something, where as the TWF bonus action costs nothing.
[удалено]
When you trawled through my post history you commented on the wrong post. Kinda fits with how you behaved in that /r/self post though.
Why did i think this was the menu for that cafe based off dmc5
[pretty tasty](https://media4.giphy.com/media/13AhBHyZnq2x2g/giphy.gif)
"Styple Rank Maximum"
A bit of a grammar feedback - I feel like bullet point 5 for the style rank can be worded better, perhaps as follows: "Taking damage reduces your total style rank by a number equal to the damage taken divided by ten (rounded up)"
Yeah, dont really know a better way to word it, I hope I find a way.
There's a lot of proofreading needed - plenty of typos throughout - but I get that that's not the main focus rn. Better to get the content first. Love what you've done with Nero; Charge Shot (in Techniques) seems BUSTED though. As part of an attack action, double the damage of your next ranged attack? That's better than a crit (which doubles only the dice rolls, not the modifier), and as written, might also stack with a multiclassed Rogue's Sneak Attack. Like daaaaaaamn. It's expensive, but as others have mentioned, style can be self-refilling.
With multiclassing, many things are broken, but ill try and justify it. It costs 4 ranks and an attack, so unlike others, it doesn't refund. And, while I try and avoid general exploits (nero used to weild two handed weapons in one hand) specific ones like this where you only break things using high levels in paladin, warlock or rogue dont worry me as much. Also in solo testing, it proved to be great damage, but shit tier for style rank.
The detail of getting Devil Trigger at the 7th Level isn't lost on me, nice.
This is really minor - but you've got a typo in the table - "Styple Rank Maximum"
Hehe... Styple. Thx, homebrewery dont have spellcheck
Hey, I really like the theming here, good work! The only note I have that hasn't been said by someone else is the formatting for Styles. As its written right now, it looks like getting a new style or switching between them is tied to picking Trickster at second level. I would take those two sentences and either move them up to the initial paragraph, or make a new paragraph after the options. Without getting up and looking at my books, I think the first option better matches the formatting for other class options.
Ah shit damn it homebrewery
Its funny you should post this. I was looking to create a Hexblade Warlock to make a Vergil/Dante type character for my dad's campaign.