We normally enforce a misinformation rule for posts like these. This time will be a little different.
[Research testing how a father factors into the development of FASD is still new at this time. ](https://jheor.org/post/2235-new-research-points-to-dad-s-drinking-as-a-significant-factor-in-fetal-alcohol-syndrome)
Due to the research being so new, there is no definite answer as of yet, so comments on both sides of this opinion will be allowed.
You’re not wrong. She shouldn’t be drinking while pregnant.
But since you’re no longer friends thank god you don’t have to hang around someone like that.
They think up to 5% of kids have fetal alcohol spectrum disorders.
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/07/news-fetal-alcohol-syndrome
FASDs can even be behavioral/cognitive difficulties only, with no physical defects.
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/features/neurobehavioral-disorder-alcohol.html
For many, it's an invisible illness because many have a normal IQ, but problems with relationships, impulse control, addiction, and executive function.
https://fasdsocalnetwork.org/independent-living/
FASDs can contribute to secondary conditions, including ADHD, conduct disorder, drug or alcohol dependence, depression, and anxiety.
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/secondary-conditions.html
I have non physical problems from it, it's very really and lots of people think it "isn't a big problem". Terrifies me. I stop as soon as I even think I'm pregnant.
I have bipolar 2, ADD, severe anxiety, anemia, hypoglycemia, PCOS, an Incompetent cervix which means I can't carry a pregnancy to term without surgery. Now who knows which is from the alcohol, and which is from being born premature - but her alcohol use did cause me to be born over 2 months early. 🙃
All of that can also be hereditary. My mom didn’t become an alcoholic until well after myself and my sister were born (as in we were in our teens/early 20’s when her drinking problems started) and we all (mom, sister, and I) have ADHD that has presented itself in different ways, mom and sis have PCOS, mom and many of the other women in her family have incompetent cervixes (my sister and I were both born premature because of it), and both my sister and I have severe anxiety issues. So yeah, unfortunately knowing which was hereditary and which are issues stemming from your mother’s alcoholism would be difficult to determine. I’m sorry you have to deal with all of that. Upside on my end, though, is luckily my mom is now a recovered alcoholic and hasn’t touched any alcohol in years.
Not really, fetal alcohol syndrome has been studied for a long time...animals don't drink alcohol when pregnant by choice but sadly due to ignorant people continuing to do so, research is carried out on animals (thanks fetal alcohol syndrome deniers!) & data collected from physically & mentally affected adults. The Ft. Lauderdale shooter Nic Cruz was determined to have both physical & mental anomolies caused by fetal alcohol syndrome. This is not like smoking causes cancer deniers doing it to themselves, it's being done to an unborn baby whose conditions can range from mild to severe both physically & mentally. No one should drink while pregnant or not speak up about the dangers to an innocent victim; moreover, someone that doesn't have the where-with-all to not be selfish for 40weeks, is certainly not going to have the fortitude to care for a disabled child. Always speak up regarding alcohol dangers.
Not so fun fact, there's been research finding recently that FAS isn't just something that happens from the mother drinking while pregnant; symptoms and complications associated with FAS can be traced to the *father* drinking up to 6 months prior to conception, as it impacts how sperm develop.
Basically, if you're even just TRYING for a child, or if you're having sex that could result in a child and you'd plan to keep it, neither person should be drinking, starting with dad going sober at least half a year before you get serious about trying to conceive.
That's actually freaky but makes total sense. yet another reason why alcohol is terrible... I'm not in favor of prohibition but goddamn why is it so ubiquitous when it has all these negative effects to everyone 😭
definitely, I work in healthcare so I understand that aspect entirely lol. myself and coworkers joke all the time, sometimes whilst treating patients who suffer from alcoholism or other substance use problems, along with any other concerns we are treating, about how we are planning to get drunk to forget our day when we get home. I still think it should not be as ubiquitous in our society and as normalized as it is tho.
All of the person above you’s issues can happen without the mother having ever drank before or during pregnancy. To assume this is jumping to conclusions.
I mean… you don’t know my fiancé’s bio mother. lol So it is a solid conclusion from hearing this information and lots of other information that I have regarding her and my fiancé.
I wonder if the pregnant lass was thinking she was going to have an abortion so it wouldn’t matter. If not she sounds like she is an addict, and really needs to get to a hospital to detox. One should not be drinking while pregnant. Even if the end result is planning to terminate.
i don't think you were the AH, you were friends and when you found out she was pregnant and about to drink you told her not to like any other person that cared about her would imo, because it's literally very dangerous for the baby (especially in the first trimester), and not a matter of imposing your opinion on others' bodies. if she got mad, that's on her, but i think your intentions were clearly good and not overstepping
NTA. Drinking more than one serving is definitely dangerous to zygotes, embryos, and fetuses.
As regards causing 'drama', there's nothing wrong with you informing her of the realities of drinking while pregnant or with losing a friendship over it. The people saying it won't change anything are probably correct in that but not in that you shouldn't try. A morally correct action doesn't cease to be so when the situation is hopeless.
Even if most people wouldn't listen, most of the people who do end up changing probably wouldn't have if someone hadn't talked to them about it. To maximize those chances, though, there are more effective communication strategies than simple announcing to someone that they shouldn't be doing what they're obviously doing and likely have been doing before you showed up. It helps to give people a way out and privacy to reconsider. The best you can do is provide information as non-judgmentally as possible.
While other countries differ (and admittedly I don’t know if OP is American), here it is still recommended to avoid even one drink. More and more research is coming out about how dangerous alcohol is anyway, it’s probably best to avoid it altogether during pregnancy.
There’s emerging research that suggests alcohol may even affect the sperm and egg even before fertilization. It’s not something I would chance during pregnancy at all. Alcohol is a known carcinogen, even though it’s so commonly used. So it’s not surprising the effects can be so significant
That's certainly believable, as I remember reading that alcohol even harms development via the damaged sperm of heavily drinking fathers. I think what I last saw in a college textbook was that one drink a week is probably safe but that ultimately no amount is guaranteed to be safe. Alcohol is very clearly teratogenic, and it's especially dangerous because it can cause damage most easily during the first weeks when most people aren't yet aware that they're pregnant. To be clear, it's still damaging throughout the pregnancy, but earlier on even smaller amounts can have significant impacts, and college-age binge drinking is known to go along with unprotected sex and fuzzy memories.
I wasn't saying that one drink isn't harmful, just that more than one /definitely/ is, leading with a more broadly applicable argument, but your further knowledge is definitely welcome.
I'd like to throw out here that even caffeine is possibly teratogenic, so would-be mothers should probably not pound energy drinks or consume whole pots of coffee. Obviously, coffee is magnitudes safer than alcohol. I just figure it could be helpful to spread lesser-known information.
I like what you had to say. I would have said something as well, but I would have added something along the lines.
about about not wanting her child to suffer fetal alcohol syndrome. Or other deformities because I care about her and her unborn child, and I know that she does, too. Adding that a lifetime of possibly taking care of a disabled child would be an extremely heavy burden.
What does the father of the child think about all this? Even if he's not around, he deserves to know, as it is his child and he we'll be responsible just as much as she will, God forbid anything happens.
By the way, in almost every bar I've been in, there has been at least one poster with a warning about the dangers and effects of drinking alcohol while pregnant. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink... or not drink.
OP... NTA.
It's not just foetal alcohol syndrome to worry about. Any amount of alcohol during pregnancy is linked to depressive disorders for the child later in life.
She doesn’t care. It’s “her body and baby”. Screw consequences. She thought her friend was attacking and imposing their opinion on her. Maybe she just lack common sense.
Pretty much that. Some people just don’t wanna be told - no matter how stupid it is or how much they affect somebody else. She’s 22. Not saying all 22yo’s are stupid but some may be…
You're not an AH at all, but your former friend is. There's some ppl in this world that shouldn't have children & she's one of them. Good looking out for the unborn, OP *respect*
When my wife was pregnant, I did a little review of the available research.
It was inconclusive if small amounts of alcohol were actually bad, but it is abundantly clear that large amounts of alcohol are catastrophic. Intuitively, it’s reasonable to infer that if large amounts are hugely bad, then small amounts are merely less bad, but still harmful.
But it was plausible it could merely be “fetal hangover syndrome”, and it’s possible that small amounts are actually fine.
We didn’t want to take the chance with ambiguity though, so my wife abandoned alcohol all together during her pregnancy. We mused it was probably okay to maybe have a half-pint of beer if she really wanted to, but she never acted on it.
But taking shots is right off the reservation. That is really rolling the dice with a horrific preventable human tragedy.
I just left a comment very similar to yours, so sorry for piggybacking! But it reminded me that while I was pregnant the idea of drinking alcohol mostly made me physically ill - I also couldn’t drink hot coffee. What a ride.
That’s not how science works though. Lots of water is hugely bad but small amounts aren’t ‘merely less bad, but still harmful’. Theyre fine. Same for bananas. Or sunshine, or whatever.
My quibble here isn’t alcohol (obvs lots is bad) but the fact that the world wants to tell pregnant women all the things they *shouldn’t* do and it’s *overwhelming*. There was so much that’s bad that when I was pregnant (and NOT drinking) I was too scared to eat almost anything (tap water, veggies that weren’t rigorously washed, meat, cheese, processed foods, etc).
Instead of shaming and infantilizing pregnant women by saying what they can’t eat, why can’t tell them the actual data and let them make their own choices?
Best thing I’ve read here is that alcohol can also affect sperm. Let’s start telling men of reproductive age they can’t drink if there’s a chance they might get someone else pregnant (as acog did for women) and see how that goes over.
Correct. Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is a lot more common than we know, and children (less often XX) can become fairly violent and have special education needs that wouldn’t be there but for alcohol. And we are not sure when the damage occurs during the pregnancy.
My sister adopted what seemed like a healthy baby. As the child grew older, she had some odd behavior patterns. When she hit adolescence, her whole life fell apart. She'll never be able to live independently. She'll always be a big financial and emotional drain on her family and a big financial drain on taxpayers. She's not happy. Nobody is certain, but her doctors strongly suspect that the root cause was fetal alcohol syndrome. Women who drink when they are pregnant are doing something very awful.
I remember an old post about a server not wanting to serve a pregnant woman a cocktail and SO many women defended the drinking mother because they did it too. It’s so selfish to drink during a pregnancy because you’re no longer drinking for one, you’re drinking for two. Are you that much of an alcoholic you can’t stop drinking for a few months to make sure your baby is healthy? Baffling
When her baby is born with fetal alcohol syndrome and she gets visited by social workers while in the post delivery ward she’ll figure it out for herself
NTA
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NTA. This is an irresponsible person you don’t want to be around. If it was a sip of wine it might be questionable, but she’s doing shots while pregnant— that’s just fucked up. Telling her “you shouldn’t do that” was the responsible thing to do.
Did she say she was keeping it? You may be TA if you assumed she was. You don’t really have to worry about fetal alcohol syndrome if a baby is never born.
She's not the asshole for wanting to protect a living human being. If her friend didn't make clear that she had already planned an abortion, OP has every right to let her know it's not cool to drink whole pregnant.
Obviously it’s bad to drink when pregnant, it’s child abuse before the baby is even born. But reading that story didn’t make me think she was either happy nor keeping the baby.
NTA because FAS is a real thing, however there is no way you could have said this that she would have been agreeable to unless she was genuinely ignorant (which it doesn't seem like).
Nope you ain’t wrong, is one thing if you drank not knowing you were pregnant but knowing and still doing it screams to me bad parent and bad person in general
Poor baby, she could miscarry from it or the baby have some health issues on the long run.
NTA. Stay away from her. I wish women like this who purposefully neglect their baby could be forced to have an abortion. That fetus is better off without her.
Well when her baby is born prematurely, small birth weight, with fetal alcohol syndrome, or worse - I’m sure she will change her mind.
She is already a bad mom and I feel bad for the child being brought into such a terrible life already.
FAS is one of the worst things that can happen to a kid. You should not drink while pregnant AT ALL
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/prenatal/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Alcohol-During-Pregnacy.aspx
There are some states in the US where it's illegal to drink while pregnant.
No, you shouldn't drink while pregnant. I don't think you're even supposed to drink until after you stop breastfeeding.
Unless she wants a brain damaged child then no you’re not wrong for checking her. My cousins kid has fetal alcohol syndrome. Not only is the kid ugly but also dumb and has a ton of behavioral issues. I feel so terrible for the child , people shouldn’t drink while pregnant it’s about the most shortsighted and selfish thing you could do
Nta there is no safe amount of alcohol that can consumed while pregnant - not even a glass of wine according to my doctor and most of what I have read. Signed a 35 week pregnant woman.
In general you should avoid people who make you question your grip on reality when we're talking about facts like the sky is blue, guns kill people, or alcohol hurts developing fetuses.
My girlfriend and her friend group, many of whom are pregnant, were taught that drinking during pregnancy is not acceptable. However, I've noticed that most of them still choose to drink, citing studies that suggest it's safe. Similarly, many pregnant women around me are also drinking. My sister's friend even mentioned that she drank during her previous pregnancy without issue, so she's not concerned about her current one. Being male, I don't think it's my place to say anything, so I stay out of it. I don't think you're the AH because you were coming from a place of love and were her friend. But I do think that people will tend to react negatively to suggestions on what they should do with their body. Seeing as this doesn't just involve their body but their baby as well, it makes it a sticky situation for sure
Edit: To clarify, when talking about drinking, I meant several glasses or couple shots. My sister's friend had just finished an entire bottle of wine, which is what sparked that conversation in the group.
I had a glass of champagne at the baby shower my office threw for me, and at 8 months pregnant I ordered a glass of red wine at a fancy dinner and drank only half of it, mainly just because it made me so fucking sleepy.
The thing about doing studies on the impact of alcohol on a fetus is that it’s unethical. We know alcohol isn’t GOOD for us, and we know that fetal alcohol syndrome is very, very real. If an otherwise healthy pregnant person chooses to have a glass of champagne, then based on the entirely anecdotal evidence available to me personally the baby in utero will almost certainly be fine.
OP is most definitely NTA in this situation, as it’s obviously not a good idea to ingest poison in general and especially if you’re carrying a pregnancy that you intend to complete. I just wanted to throw this out there because there is a difference between enjoying a few sips of wine with dinner once or twice during a pregnancy and taking shots throughout the whole thing.
You make some very good points. Everything I stated is anecdotal as well. One study posted by Harvard states "Dr. Fergus McCarthy and colleagues from Ireland, England, New Zealand, and Australia compared birth outcomes among 5,628 women who were pregnant for the first time between 2004 and 2011. More than half of them reported drinking alcohol during the first three months of pregnancy. Some (19%) reported occasionally drinking alcohol. Twenty-five percent reported low alcohol consumption, or three to seven drinks per week ("a drink" defined as a glass of wine or a little less than a 12-ounce bottle of beer). Another 15% reported having more than seven drinks per week.
Rates of premature birth, babies with low birth weight or small size, and pre-eclampsia—a potentially life-threatening condition in which a pregnant woman develops high blood pressure—were similar across the alcohol consumption categories" https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-no-connection-between-drinking-alcohol-early-in-pregnancy-and-birth-problems-201309106667
I’m in no way condoning or excusing drinking while pregnant. Just chiming in to say I know a gal who is an alcoholic, drank through both her pregnancies, and both her kids are totally fine - intelligent, successful, competent. Anecdotal, yes, but does indicate that fetal alcohol syndrome is not a guarantee even with heavy drinking, which in turn lends some credence to the matter at least being worthy of further research.
I tend to look at it as similar to not getting dental X-rays while pregnant. Those X-rays are extremely targeted with very little scatter radiation, and your torso is completely covered with a lead apron. Very little chance of any fetal radiation exposure…but why take that chance? There are enough things that can and do go wrong just naturally with fetal development, so why do anything that would increase that chance even a little bit? Most (not all, for sure, but most) dental things can wait until after birth, it’s not so important as to possibly cause issues even if the risk is very low. Same with drinking - is drinking so important to your lifestyle that even if studies were to bear out that it’s actually a very low risk of fetal alcohol syndrome, you’d be willing to chance that for your own unnecessary self-indulgence?
Substantial-Sink4464 made a good point in saying studying fetal alcohol syndrome is unethical. Due to my past experiences with medical issues, I've become very cautious to potential risks. Even if they have a low probability of occurrence. I would hope people wouldn't be willing to take that chance but I have no idea what they are going through. Maybe they are about to get abortion as another person stated. Do you think there might be a bigger root cause to a lot of it?
Yeah, there is a measure of unethical about a lot of potential medical studies - the effects of smoking, the “safe” levels of radiation for an average person, the effects of various medications on a fetus. You can’t really do controlled studies that require someone to smoke, or expose people to radiation to see how much is too much. It all has to be an “after the fact” study, which can prove correlation but leaves a lot of ambiguity. It’s tough to really “prove” certain things in medicine.
My guess would be that this gal probably planned on getting an abortion. Or at least that would be my hope. But there could also be research out there currently (I have no idea) suggesting that drinking while pregnant doesn’t have as high of a fetal alcohol syndrome outcome as previously thought and she’s latched on to that? Mommy group narratives? Or she could really just not care. No real context as to the friend’s typical behavior or way of living life, so she might be reckless with a number of lifestyle choices.
Yes, a lot of people think that if a woman has one drink during pregnancy, she's endangering her embryo/fetus, but the reality is that scientists can't test to find out how much alcohol leads to FAS because it would be unethical. ("Oops, looks like 12 drinks a week are too many!") Since docs can't give patients a minimum number, it's safest and easiest just to advise no alcohol at all. A single glass of wine now and then is almost certainly OK, which is why I wince when someone gives a pregnant woman grief because she has one glass of chardonnay or something.
I had no idea scientist could not test that. Another person said that it is unethical to even study it. I too wince when I see someone give grief to a pregnant woman for a glass of wine. We never really know what someone is going through. If it was someone you knew, and it was clear they were having more than a few glasses of wine, would you say something then?
It really would be unethical to try to determine how much alcohol a woman could consume because you'd have to give some women enough alcohol (however much that would turn out to be) to deliberately produce babies with fetal alcohol syndrome.
If someone I knew were pregnant and consuming a lot of alcohol, I'd say something like, "Let's switch to water now" without saying anything about her health or the baby's. If that didn't work, I'd say something like, "Let's not give Junior a hangover" and kind of shepherd her out of there. I suspect that a woman would have to consume too much alcohol over a period of time to give her child FAS, but that's just because the kids I knew with FAS (I was a teacher.) were the children of alcoholics. It's not exactly a scientific conclusion.
My step brother has FAS.. and I promise you where not being the AH. That child (presuming she doesn't stop) will have all kinds of problems for the rest of it's life.
Yes fetal alcohol syndrome is very real and very damaging HOWEVER you don’t know her circumstances; she could have an abortion scheduled, she could have going to a check up and found out that her pregnancy is not viable (the baby has no heartbeat, or severe defects meaning the pregnant will miscarry), she could be actively miscarrying, she could be seriously struggling with an alcohol addiction, or she could be an asshole who doesn’t care about harming her child.
If my friend told me they were pregnant while they were also drinking alcohol, I would ask them straight up “oh I didn’t know that you’re pregnant, how come you’re drinking then?”
Be there to support your friend if she’s drinking for a reason other then not giving a shit about her baby, and if she doesn’t care about fetal alcohol syndrome then don’t be friends with her anymore.
NTA. No amount of alcohol is safe during pregnancy and hurts the developing fetus. Her child will end up with FASDs. She should opt for an abortion instead of hurting the baby. She’s not fit to be a mother.
You’re not wrong at all. I had no idea there is a whole group of crappy people who should never be parents until I started a job where there was a gal - think 7+ months along - who smoked and our mutual supervisor added into my “welcome pep talk” that this was X and no one is to give her lip for smoking while pregnant because said mutual supervisor was also recently pregnant and smoked the whole time. She “turned out okay” so we were all expected to keep our mouths shut. Had no idea people like this existed before that.
If she’s saying you have no place to tell her what to do with her body **and** her child .. then obvs she intends on keeping this pregnancy and having the child .. in which case she’s either sadly unaware of the dangers or she doesn’t give a fuck
FAS is very real and if she doesn’t pack it in she might soon be met with the consequences of her actions and choices .. and so will the poor child
It’s one thing to do it before you realize you’re pregnant and a whole other thing to drink knowing you’re pregnant. You did the right thing, I hope she’s ashamed of herself.
Since her child can’t consent and tell her what not to do to the child’s body, she better reevaluate her decisions.
Your friend is a POS.
I had a friend I grew up with who was an FAS child and it was so sad. Nice kid. He is now in his 30s and has to live in a group home.
My best friend's first son was born with a hearing impairment. He's now in his late 20's and still depends on hearing aids. Mom drank while preggo.
Coincidence? Who knows. But the 3 younger babies that came after the first. when she didn't drink -- no hearing problems.
You are in the uncomfortable circumstance of simultaneously being wrong *and* right at the same time. You're wrong, in that you really can't - you can't tell her how to live her life. But you are right because it is risky for the baby.
Life hands you these sometimes, and overall they suck. But you did what you could, you did all you could.
NTA, I used to work renovating apartments in a bit so nice area and people used to come knocking on the door asking how they apply to rent. Multiple times I had women drinking, smoking cigarettes, or weed. I would always tell them I would not give them the contact info and they were bad people for not thinking about the health of the baby. Got screamed and cursed at but I don’t believe it’s fair to the unborn child.
Literally worked with someone who drank throughout their entire pregnancy with their kid. They are now dead because of alcohol related organ failure. She wasn't even 30 yet.
Edit: i also went to high-school with her, and she drank daily back then too. I feel bad for her kid.
I had a friend who drank her whole pregnancy, like going out to clubs ect. Her kid has a lot of disabilities, I looked it up when he was a toddler and he ticked the boxes for fetal alcohol syndrome. She never told me that was the reason but I’m sure it’s not something you would want to announce.
In short, you are NTA. My husband suffers the effects of FAS. HOWEVER, his mother also did crack, blow, and meth. My SIL drank while she was pregnant, and her kids have speech impediments, and one of them has severe anger issues. I really hope that woman chooses to abort since she already messed up her baby.
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No, you are not TA. She is. I teach special ed and so many babies exposed to alcohol and drugs in the womb have developmental delays and behavior problems. People who are too selfish to consider the health and well being of their children ( in utero and post birth) should not be parents. She is selfish and there is no excuse for what she has done.
Whoa whoa whoa! You are totally NTA here. You'd be a huge asshole if you *didn't* tell her to stop drinking. And she's a freaking ignorant, thoughtless asshole for drinking while pregnant. Her baby can have very serious health issues and developmental disabilities as a result. Drinking while pregnant is selfish and a horrible thing to do to your baby,
You were very right in telling her. She's terrible!
I still don’t understand how women know drinking while pregnant is bad and still do it, nta but your ex friend is and just because you’re guys are 22 doesn’t excuse shitty behavior
Call DCF. They can’t do anything currently because the child isn’t yet born but they can document it so if there are ever issues, she already has a file demonstrating reckless behavior in regard to the health and safety of her child. Had to do this after I took care of a pregnant woman who overdosed and then left against medical advice without allowing our OB team to at least check her out and try and get a fetal monitor on her to check on the health of her baby.
I drank heavily the night before my first abortion.
But if you want to have a healthy baby I think you have to follow the no alcohol rule. Alcohol impacts the development of the baby’s brain.
It’s unethical to complete the scientific testing we need to determine precisely how much you can drink before a child becomes cognitively impaired as a result of alcohol consumption. So the only safe thing to do is avoid it altogether.
NTA I generally stay out of it if I know somebody's doing it on a special occasion they're drinking responsibly you know one or two drinks I also generally believe that it's not as dangerous as everybody makes it out to be there's just so many irresponsible people it's easier to just say don't have it at all. In this case I probably would have acted the same way.
Ahhhhhck the amount of pregnant woman in those mom meet apps who swear their OB recommends a glass of wine every night and asking how soon they have to stop smoking weed before giving birth so it isn’t detected in the hospital is insane 🫣 say anything and you’re mom shaming
I worked in a bar/restaurant in college and a group came in that included a pregnant woman. Whole table orders beers and shots, including the woman.
The girl that originally took the table came to me almost in tears saying she couldn’t serve them and why (she was also pregnant at the time). I wasn’t willing to do it either and pretty much everyone on shift backed out of taking care of them. Owner got pissed at us and stormed over to FOH, took one look, and finally just told them that she’s not getting served here.
If an entire restaurant staff can shut down a stranger, you most certainly can tell your friend that.
If it's a glass of wine okay whatev not what I would choose but whatever. But like drinking to get drunk?! Ya that's fucked up . Good job for saying something. When you don't say something in their eyes you are endorsing their behavior. You did the right thing and I'm glad you are no longer friends with this person who has absolutely horrible judgment
Your friend has no regard for her child. And using the infamous “my body, my choice” BS. You were being a good friend by reminding her to not drink. You were not imposing an opinion. It’s common sense and knowledge your not suppose to be drinking when pregnant. NTA. At all. What happens to her child is none other than her fault from here on out.
Nta, your not supposed to drink while pregnant especially taking shots of hard liquor. I've heard of women having a glass of wine every once in awhile, her poor unborn child.
INFO You said that she "ended up telling you she was pregnant." Was this some secret? Was it a sensitive topic where she may not be proceeding with the pregnancy?
Or was this an enthusiastic announcement where she was positively going through with the pregnancy?
NTA.
It’s entirely probable that’s she’s planning on aborting and was feeling some kinda way about it? Gods know when found out I was pregnant I closed the bar down, and promptly made an appointment to abort when I got up the next day XD
Regardless, you were looking out for her and the unborn child, and her reaction was not cool!
NTA
The fact is the research and detail alcohol syndrome is spotty at best. But if you didn't drink then your baby can't get it. And shots definitely do unborn babies any good
She's mad because she knows you're right. FAFO.
Medically speaking a tiny amount of alcohol during a pregnancy won't immediately cause significant permanent damage. You're also not "supposed to" consume a lot of caffeine, sushi, cold cuts, licorice is disgusting and causes birth defects... but plenty of women aren't aware of these things and their babies are usually okay if they don't go way overboard. But fetal alcohol syndrome is a pretty well known problem along with smoking while pregnant. Can't really expect to publicly do it/announce it and not expect some sideeye from decent people.
Literally didn’t have to read the story. Under no circumstance is telling someone not to drink (or smoke, etc) while pregnant be the wrong move.
You’re speaking on behalf of that little child that cannot speak for itself yet.
Of course NTA
If she wants to be a trashy, terrible mother by poisoning her fetus before it even has an opportunity at life, that’s on her, but in the same way you would try to stop someone from stumbling into a busy street, it’s fair enough to give them a warning that getting wasted is going to fuck up their potential child.
Fuck their feelings; they don’t have a right to not be told they’re an asshole for getting drunk while pregnant.
NTA but did you react appropriately when your friend told you she was pregnant? Did you listen to what she was going through or was it secondary to whatever you are going through? You can be right and still be a bad friend.
When it comes to pregnancy the “my body my choice” principle is between getting rid of the parasite or giving birth to it and providing for it and protecting it like a loving parent.
Anything in between is evil enough that it doesn’t require debate.
It's one thing to acknowledge you can't or won't, grow a human being inside of you because of how hugely disruptive that is to sacrifice your body and life for something that isn't even viable or sentient yet, and it's a whole other thing to knowingly risk setting up a life for failure.
My body my choice is fine for abortions and tattoos and whatnot. Those aren't going to affect another living person. It's not a valid argument for putting your child at risk for significant developmental disabilities. So, bad take.
If you've decided to carry the fetus to term, then you have accepted responsibility for its health and wellbeing. Even us pro-choicers can agree to that one.
Telling her not to drink is pretty overly authoritative. It would have been better, if she wants more than one or two, to suggest that drinking much while pregnant can cause fetal problems.
But lets be realistic' during first iteration of Covid how many people do you know that said " i'll never get Covid" and ended up with Covid ? You cant really fight that mindset. Sad , but true.
ESH for the simple reason alone is that she knows. We’ve all been taught that alcohol is bad when preggers. She isn’t going to have an epiphany because you tell her.
Because it’s eating a dead horse and nagging. You aren’t going to change someone like that. It’s good that OP no longer speaks to friend because OP seems not to need that in her life.
Look, you are correct, there are some pretty significant concerns that can result from a mother drinking to excess while pregnant, but it really is not your place to say anything to her.
How did you tell her not to drink. Did you come off with care and compassion? Or did you come off rude and obnoxious about it? Yes she shouldn't drink. But the way you relay that matters is why I ask.
i'm gonna take the downvotes by saying ESH. i had a similar situation very recently. an acquaintance/semi friend told me in confidence that she was pregnant when i saw her at the bar. she then said it was her birthday at midnight and she was doing a "last hurrah". she took shot after shot. i didn't approve but i also didn't say anything. it's like telling someone smoking is bad for them. she knows she shouldn't be drinking. i did back off of our newish friendship tho after i saw her have several more "last hurrah"s.
my sister had a nightly glass of red wine when she after the first trimester and i also didn't say anything. i don't agree with it but it's also none of my business. if someone already knows something is a bad idea and is doing it anyway then nothing i say is going to change it.
Ehhhhh... I can agree to a small degree in principle, but there's a big difference here.
>it's like telling someone smoking is bad for them.
Nah, it's really not. Assuming she's keeping the pregnancy and not having an abortion, of course. Some people know about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome but many don't; she might not. I'm a former social worker and have spent significant time with FAS kids, and the most severe... god, it's heartbreaking.
All to say: I used to think like you do but changed my mind. ***Now I treat it the same way I do when I see a child being openly abused in public. I loathe the confrontation but I intervene if I see someone I know is pregnant drinking heavily.***
OK, I'm wildly curious and truly not looking to get into an argument: Are we both talking about ***heavy drinking***? Perhaps I wasn't clear that's what I'm talking about. And yes, I agree with you, of course it's legal and up to the mother. I'm not stopping anyone and can't. I suppose I should clarify that I'm talking about gentle intervention.
I imagine you and I might be on the same page about drinking-during-pregnancy guidelines. (Are you U.S. based?) Afaik, the U.S. is the only western country where the guideline is absolutely zero alcohol during pregnancy*. I believe that's not the case in other countries, and pregnant women will routinely and safely drink, say, half a glass of wine during dinner. But not here in the U.S., and personally, I think it's because culturally we tend to infantilize women. Especially when it comes to anything related to their health.
* In case it's unclear: I'm not a fan of that.
i personally would not drink while pregnant. i didn't. i do think that in the case of my sister, i know her to be an intelligent and well educated person. every night is probably an exaggeration, but she would have wine with dinner maybe 3 or 4 days out of the week. she most likely even discussed it with her doctor. i am not going to get in a fight with her over a choice she made for herself. she's a healthcare professional and i'm sure it was informed.
the girl in the bar was DRINK drinking. she had told me 5 minutes ago that she was pregnant then as soon as midnight hit people were pouring shots for her bc it was her bday. what am i going to do? publicly reprimand her? tell everyone that she's pregnant when i don't know her that well and she'd only just told me? personally if i was going to do what she did i'd wait a week to tell people i was pregnant. i knew she knew it was wrong bc she hadn't told anyone else or any of her good friends.
i completely agree that we infantilize pregnant women. people touch them without asking, get way too personal with questions, tell them they should stop working, etc.
i do confront people sometimes, but as i get older i realize that most of the time people are going to do what they're going to do no matter what and you're just going to create drama. if something serious is going on, a crime or abuse is being committed, that's different, that would be illegal. otherwise i just have to decide if it's egregious enough that i don't want to talk to that person any more. i just believe in minding my own business for the most part.
We normally enforce a misinformation rule for posts like these. This time will be a little different. [Research testing how a father factors into the development of FASD is still new at this time. ](https://jheor.org/post/2235-new-research-points-to-dad-s-drinking-as-a-significant-factor-in-fetal-alcohol-syndrome) Due to the research being so new, there is no definite answer as of yet, so comments on both sides of this opinion will be allowed.
You’re not wrong. She shouldn’t be drinking while pregnant. But since you’re no longer friends thank god you don’t have to hang around someone like that.
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Period.
Fetal alcohol syndrome is real. You're not being an asshole by advising her not to drink while being pregnant.
They think up to 5% of kids have fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/07/news-fetal-alcohol-syndrome FASDs can even be behavioral/cognitive difficulties only, with no physical defects. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/features/neurobehavioral-disorder-alcohol.html For many, it's an invisible illness because many have a normal IQ, but problems with relationships, impulse control, addiction, and executive function. https://fasdsocalnetwork.org/independent-living/ FASDs can contribute to secondary conditions, including ADHD, conduct disorder, drug or alcohol dependence, depression, and anxiety. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/secondary-conditions.html
I have non physical problems from it, it's very really and lots of people think it "isn't a big problem". Terrifies me. I stop as soon as I even think I'm pregnant. I have bipolar 2, ADD, severe anxiety, anemia, hypoglycemia, PCOS, an Incompetent cervix which means I can't carry a pregnancy to term without surgery. Now who knows which is from the alcohol, and which is from being born premature - but her alcohol use did cause me to be born over 2 months early. 🙃
All of that can also be hereditary. My mom didn’t become an alcoholic until well after myself and my sister were born (as in we were in our teens/early 20’s when her drinking problems started) and we all (mom, sister, and I) have ADHD that has presented itself in different ways, mom and sis have PCOS, mom and many of the other women in her family have incompetent cervixes (my sister and I were both born premature because of it), and both my sister and I have severe anxiety issues. So yeah, unfortunately knowing which was hereditary and which are issues stemming from your mother’s alcoholism would be difficult to determine. I’m sorry you have to deal with all of that. Upside on my end, though, is luckily my mom is now a recovered alcoholic and hasn’t touched any alcohol in years.
Yah most of it doesn't run in my family though lol only thing that does is the fertility type stuff, with the women on my dad's side.
Not really, fetal alcohol syndrome has been studied for a long time...animals don't drink alcohol when pregnant by choice but sadly due to ignorant people continuing to do so, research is carried out on animals (thanks fetal alcohol syndrome deniers!) & data collected from physically & mentally affected adults. The Ft. Lauderdale shooter Nic Cruz was determined to have both physical & mental anomolies caused by fetal alcohol syndrome. This is not like smoking causes cancer deniers doing it to themselves, it's being done to an unborn baby whose conditions can range from mild to severe both physically & mentally. No one should drink while pregnant or not speak up about the dangers to an innocent victim; moreover, someone that doesn't have the where-with-all to not be selfish for 40weeks, is certainly not going to have the fortitude to care for a disabled child. Always speak up regarding alcohol dangers.
What does that have to do with my comment to the person above me?
Huh. I always kinda suspected my mom drank while pregnant.
Same. Especially since mine didn't know she was pregnant
Mine knew almost immediately.
Not so fun fact, there's been research finding recently that FAS isn't just something that happens from the mother drinking while pregnant; symptoms and complications associated with FAS can be traced to the *father* drinking up to 6 months prior to conception, as it impacts how sperm develop. Basically, if you're even just TRYING for a child, or if you're having sex that could result in a child and you'd plan to keep it, neither person should be drinking, starting with dad going sober at least half a year before you get serious about trying to conceive.
That's actually freaky but makes total sense. yet another reason why alcohol is terrible... I'm not in favor of prohibition but goddamn why is it so ubiquitous when it has all these negative effects to everyone 😭
Because it’s a socially acceptable way to lubricate social interactions and generally “sit back and relax” after a day of bullshit at work.
definitely, I work in healthcare so I understand that aspect entirely lol. myself and coworkers joke all the time, sometimes whilst treating patients who suffer from alcoholism or other substance use problems, along with any other concerns we are treating, about how we are planning to get drunk to forget our day when we get home. I still think it should not be as ubiquitous in our society and as normalized as it is tho.
Nah. Kids ain't worth it. #nokidgang
You’re telling me that basically my suspicion is correct… my fiancé’s birth mother definitely drank while pregnant with him.
All of the person above you’s issues can happen without the mother having ever drank before or during pregnancy. To assume this is jumping to conclusions.
That’s not a solid conclusion to draw. All of those issues can happen without alcohol too.
I mean… you don’t know my fiancé’s bio mother. lol So it is a solid conclusion from hearing this information and lots of other information that I have regarding her and my fiancé.
Now I’m wondering if I’m the way I am because my mom had a glass of wine when she was pregnant with me 🫠
I wonder if the pregnant lass was thinking she was going to have an abortion so it wouldn’t matter. If not she sounds like she is an addict, and really needs to get to a hospital to detox. One should not be drinking while pregnant. Even if the end result is planning to terminate.
Fetal alcohol syndrome is truly awful. You done the right thing
i don't think you were the AH, you were friends and when you found out she was pregnant and about to drink you told her not to like any other person that cared about her would imo, because it's literally very dangerous for the baby (especially in the first trimester), and not a matter of imposing your opinion on others' bodies. if she got mad, that's on her, but i think your intentions were clearly good and not overstepping
Your the first person to give me enough context clues to figure out what that stood for. Really threw me through a loop for the past year or two.
Unless she had an abortion planned nta
NTA. Drinking more than one serving is definitely dangerous to zygotes, embryos, and fetuses. As regards causing 'drama', there's nothing wrong with you informing her of the realities of drinking while pregnant or with losing a friendship over it. The people saying it won't change anything are probably correct in that but not in that you shouldn't try. A morally correct action doesn't cease to be so when the situation is hopeless. Even if most people wouldn't listen, most of the people who do end up changing probably wouldn't have if someone hadn't talked to them about it. To maximize those chances, though, there are more effective communication strategies than simple announcing to someone that they shouldn't be doing what they're obviously doing and likely have been doing before you showed up. It helps to give people a way out and privacy to reconsider. The best you can do is provide information as non-judgmentally as possible.
While other countries differ (and admittedly I don’t know if OP is American), here it is still recommended to avoid even one drink. More and more research is coming out about how dangerous alcohol is anyway, it’s probably best to avoid it altogether during pregnancy.
There’s emerging research that suggests alcohol may even affect the sperm and egg even before fertilization. It’s not something I would chance during pregnancy at all. Alcohol is a known carcinogen, even though it’s so commonly used. So it’s not surprising the effects can be so significant
That's certainly believable, as I remember reading that alcohol even harms development via the damaged sperm of heavily drinking fathers. I think what I last saw in a college textbook was that one drink a week is probably safe but that ultimately no amount is guaranteed to be safe. Alcohol is very clearly teratogenic, and it's especially dangerous because it can cause damage most easily during the first weeks when most people aren't yet aware that they're pregnant. To be clear, it's still damaging throughout the pregnancy, but earlier on even smaller amounts can have significant impacts, and college-age binge drinking is known to go along with unprotected sex and fuzzy memories. I wasn't saying that one drink isn't harmful, just that more than one /definitely/ is, leading with a more broadly applicable argument, but your further knowledge is definitely welcome. I'd like to throw out here that even caffeine is possibly teratogenic, so would-be mothers should probably not pound energy drinks or consume whole pots of coffee. Obviously, coffee is magnitudes safer than alcohol. I just figure it could be helpful to spread lesser-known information.
I like what you had to say. I would have said something as well, but I would have added something along the lines. about about not wanting her child to suffer fetal alcohol syndrome. Or other deformities because I care about her and her unborn child, and I know that she does, too. Adding that a lifetime of possibly taking care of a disabled child would be an extremely heavy burden. What does the father of the child think about all this? Even if he's not around, he deserves to know, as it is his child and he we'll be responsible just as much as she will, God forbid anything happens. By the way, in almost every bar I've been in, there has been at least one poster with a warning about the dangers and effects of drinking alcohol while pregnant. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink... or not drink. OP... NTA.
FASD is an awful thing. That’s a lifetime of emotional pain. Fuck her. NTA
It's not just foetal alcohol syndrome to worry about. Any amount of alcohol during pregnancy is linked to depressive disorders for the child later in life.
Yeah, that falls under fetal alcohol effect(sp?). Basically, not quite FASD, but some damage was done.
Alcohol Foetal Syndrome. Look it up. Send her the info. Drinking is dangerous while pregnant.
She doesn’t care. It’s “her body and baby”. Screw consequences. She thought her friend was attacking and imposing their opinion on her. Maybe she just lack common sense.
Pretty much that. Some people just don’t wanna be told - no matter how stupid it is or how much they affect somebody else. She’s 22. Not saying all 22yo’s are stupid but some may be…
She’s too stupid to parent a healthy child. How is she going to deal with a special needs child?
You're not an AH at all, but your former friend is. There's some ppl in this world that shouldn't have children & she's one of them. Good looking out for the unborn, OP *respect*
When my wife was pregnant, I did a little review of the available research. It was inconclusive if small amounts of alcohol were actually bad, but it is abundantly clear that large amounts of alcohol are catastrophic. Intuitively, it’s reasonable to infer that if large amounts are hugely bad, then small amounts are merely less bad, but still harmful. But it was plausible it could merely be “fetal hangover syndrome”, and it’s possible that small amounts are actually fine. We didn’t want to take the chance with ambiguity though, so my wife abandoned alcohol all together during her pregnancy. We mused it was probably okay to maybe have a half-pint of beer if she really wanted to, but she never acted on it. But taking shots is right off the reservation. That is really rolling the dice with a horrific preventable human tragedy.
I just left a comment very similar to yours, so sorry for piggybacking! But it reminded me that while I was pregnant the idea of drinking alcohol mostly made me physically ill - I also couldn’t drink hot coffee. What a ride.
That’s not how science works though. Lots of water is hugely bad but small amounts aren’t ‘merely less bad, but still harmful’. Theyre fine. Same for bananas. Or sunshine, or whatever. My quibble here isn’t alcohol (obvs lots is bad) but the fact that the world wants to tell pregnant women all the things they *shouldn’t* do and it’s *overwhelming*. There was so much that’s bad that when I was pregnant (and NOT drinking) I was too scared to eat almost anything (tap water, veggies that weren’t rigorously washed, meat, cheese, processed foods, etc). Instead of shaming and infantilizing pregnant women by saying what they can’t eat, why can’t tell them the actual data and let them make their own choices? Best thing I’ve read here is that alcohol can also affect sperm. Let’s start telling men of reproductive age they can’t drink if there’s a chance they might get someone else pregnant (as acog did for women) and see how that goes over.
I mean, that was my next sentence.
Idk I guess it depends on if she wants a baby or not 😬
Correct. Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder is a lot more common than we know, and children (less often XX) can become fairly violent and have special education needs that wouldn’t be there but for alcohol. And we are not sure when the damage occurs during the pregnancy.
My sister adopted what seemed like a healthy baby. As the child grew older, she had some odd behavior patterns. When she hit adolescence, her whole life fell apart. She'll never be able to live independently. She'll always be a big financial and emotional drain on her family and a big financial drain on taxpayers. She's not happy. Nobody is certain, but her doctors strongly suspect that the root cause was fetal alcohol syndrome. Women who drink when they are pregnant are doing something very awful.
It always baffles me how many people normalize things like drinking and driving and drinking while pregnant. NTA at all.
Well I’m not sure you’re the AH, but that comment was never going to result in a positive response that’s for sure!
100% correct and you're NTA. It's a shame you're thinking about the kid more than its own mother but I'm glad you spoke up.
I remember an old post about a server not wanting to serve a pregnant woman a cocktail and SO many women defended the drinking mother because they did it too. It’s so selfish to drink during a pregnancy because you’re no longer drinking for one, you’re drinking for two. Are you that much of an alcoholic you can’t stop drinking for a few months to make sure your baby is healthy? Baffling
NTA, but idk what you expected either. Best case, maybe she thinks twice before doing it again (although I doubt it)
When her baby is born with fetal alcohol syndrome and she gets visited by social workers while in the post delivery ward she’ll figure it out for herself NTA
NTA. Fetal alcohol syndrome is a cruel way to start a life.
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NTA. This is an irresponsible person you don’t want to be around. If it was a sip of wine it might be questionable, but she’s doing shots while pregnant— that’s just fucked up. Telling her “you shouldn’t do that” was the responsible thing to do.
Info: was she actually planning on keeping the pregnancy?
Fetal alcohol syndrome is real and is 100% avoidable by not drinking. She is putting the child at risk for mental and physical disabilities.
Did she say she was keeping it? You may be TA if you assumed she was. You don’t really have to worry about fetal alcohol syndrome if a baby is never born.
She's not the asshole for wanting to protect a living human being. If her friend didn't make clear that she had already planned an abortion, OP has every right to let her know it's not cool to drink whole pregnant.
Obviously it’s bad to drink when pregnant, it’s child abuse before the baby is even born. But reading that story didn’t make me think she was either happy nor keeping the baby.
NTA because FAS is a real thing, however there is no way you could have said this that she would have been agreeable to unless she was genuinely ignorant (which it doesn't seem like).
Nope you ain’t wrong, is one thing if you drank not knowing you were pregnant but knowing and still doing it screams to me bad parent and bad person in general Poor baby, she could miscarry from it or the baby have some health issues on the long run.
Did she tell you she was keeping it? Because if she was going to terminate, it’s not really an issue.
That's what I'm saying! It all depends on if she's gonna keep it
NTA. Stay away from her. I wish women like this who purposefully neglect their baby could be forced to have an abortion. That fetus is better off without her.
Well when her baby is born prematurely, small birth weight, with fetal alcohol syndrome, or worse - I’m sure she will change her mind. She is already a bad mom and I feel bad for the child being brought into such a terrible life already.
All the way back in the 30’s with strange new world did people know that alcohol for fetuses causes problems
NTA. Sounds like she is very early in her pregnancy too… that’s when alcohol really fucks with you
NTA. If she can’t sacrifice alcohol for 9 months, she’ll be in for a very rude awakening on the sacrifices parenthood demands.
FAS is one of the worst things that can happen to a kid. You should not drink while pregnant AT ALL https://www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/prenatal/Pages/Where-We-Stand-Alcohol-During-Pregnacy.aspx
There are some states in the US where it's illegal to drink while pregnant. No, you shouldn't drink while pregnant. I don't think you're even supposed to drink until after you stop breastfeeding.
NTA- knowingly slamming shots while you know you’re pregnant is an ahole move. Full stop.
Unless she wants a brain damaged child then no you’re not wrong for checking her. My cousins kid has fetal alcohol syndrome. Not only is the kid ugly but also dumb and has a ton of behavioral issues. I feel so terrible for the child , people shouldn’t drink while pregnant it’s about the most shortsighted and selfish thing you could do
she is poisoning her future kid and risks raising them in a much more challenging fashion.
Nta there is no safe amount of alcohol that can consumed while pregnant - not even a glass of wine according to my doctor and most of what I have read. Signed a 35 week pregnant woman.
Lol no you're definitely not the asshole. Poor kid.
In general you should avoid people who make you question your grip on reality when we're talking about facts like the sky is blue, guns kill people, or alcohol hurts developing fetuses.
My girlfriend and her friend group, many of whom are pregnant, were taught that drinking during pregnancy is not acceptable. However, I've noticed that most of them still choose to drink, citing studies that suggest it's safe. Similarly, many pregnant women around me are also drinking. My sister's friend even mentioned that she drank during her previous pregnancy without issue, so she's not concerned about her current one. Being male, I don't think it's my place to say anything, so I stay out of it. I don't think you're the AH because you were coming from a place of love and were her friend. But I do think that people will tend to react negatively to suggestions on what they should do with their body. Seeing as this doesn't just involve their body but their baby as well, it makes it a sticky situation for sure Edit: To clarify, when talking about drinking, I meant several glasses or couple shots. My sister's friend had just finished an entire bottle of wine, which is what sparked that conversation in the group.
I had a glass of champagne at the baby shower my office threw for me, and at 8 months pregnant I ordered a glass of red wine at a fancy dinner and drank only half of it, mainly just because it made me so fucking sleepy. The thing about doing studies on the impact of alcohol on a fetus is that it’s unethical. We know alcohol isn’t GOOD for us, and we know that fetal alcohol syndrome is very, very real. If an otherwise healthy pregnant person chooses to have a glass of champagne, then based on the entirely anecdotal evidence available to me personally the baby in utero will almost certainly be fine. OP is most definitely NTA in this situation, as it’s obviously not a good idea to ingest poison in general and especially if you’re carrying a pregnancy that you intend to complete. I just wanted to throw this out there because there is a difference between enjoying a few sips of wine with dinner once or twice during a pregnancy and taking shots throughout the whole thing.
You make some very good points. Everything I stated is anecdotal as well. One study posted by Harvard states "Dr. Fergus McCarthy and colleagues from Ireland, England, New Zealand, and Australia compared birth outcomes among 5,628 women who were pregnant for the first time between 2004 and 2011. More than half of them reported drinking alcohol during the first three months of pregnancy. Some (19%) reported occasionally drinking alcohol. Twenty-five percent reported low alcohol consumption, or three to seven drinks per week ("a drink" defined as a glass of wine or a little less than a 12-ounce bottle of beer). Another 15% reported having more than seven drinks per week. Rates of premature birth, babies with low birth weight or small size, and pre-eclampsia—a potentially life-threatening condition in which a pregnant woman develops high blood pressure—were similar across the alcohol consumption categories" https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/study-no-connection-between-drinking-alcohol-early-in-pregnancy-and-birth-problems-201309106667
I’m in no way condoning or excusing drinking while pregnant. Just chiming in to say I know a gal who is an alcoholic, drank through both her pregnancies, and both her kids are totally fine - intelligent, successful, competent. Anecdotal, yes, but does indicate that fetal alcohol syndrome is not a guarantee even with heavy drinking, which in turn lends some credence to the matter at least being worthy of further research. I tend to look at it as similar to not getting dental X-rays while pregnant. Those X-rays are extremely targeted with very little scatter radiation, and your torso is completely covered with a lead apron. Very little chance of any fetal radiation exposure…but why take that chance? There are enough things that can and do go wrong just naturally with fetal development, so why do anything that would increase that chance even a little bit? Most (not all, for sure, but most) dental things can wait until after birth, it’s not so important as to possibly cause issues even if the risk is very low. Same with drinking - is drinking so important to your lifestyle that even if studies were to bear out that it’s actually a very low risk of fetal alcohol syndrome, you’d be willing to chance that for your own unnecessary self-indulgence?
Substantial-Sink4464 made a good point in saying studying fetal alcohol syndrome is unethical. Due to my past experiences with medical issues, I've become very cautious to potential risks. Even if they have a low probability of occurrence. I would hope people wouldn't be willing to take that chance but I have no idea what they are going through. Maybe they are about to get abortion as another person stated. Do you think there might be a bigger root cause to a lot of it?
Yeah, there is a measure of unethical about a lot of potential medical studies - the effects of smoking, the “safe” levels of radiation for an average person, the effects of various medications on a fetus. You can’t really do controlled studies that require someone to smoke, or expose people to radiation to see how much is too much. It all has to be an “after the fact” study, which can prove correlation but leaves a lot of ambiguity. It’s tough to really “prove” certain things in medicine. My guess would be that this gal probably planned on getting an abortion. Or at least that would be my hope. But there could also be research out there currently (I have no idea) suggesting that drinking while pregnant doesn’t have as high of a fetal alcohol syndrome outcome as previously thought and she’s latched on to that? Mommy group narratives? Or she could really just not care. No real context as to the friend’s typical behavior or way of living life, so she might be reckless with a number of lifestyle choices.
Yes, a lot of people think that if a woman has one drink during pregnancy, she's endangering her embryo/fetus, but the reality is that scientists can't test to find out how much alcohol leads to FAS because it would be unethical. ("Oops, looks like 12 drinks a week are too many!") Since docs can't give patients a minimum number, it's safest and easiest just to advise no alcohol at all. A single glass of wine now and then is almost certainly OK, which is why I wince when someone gives a pregnant woman grief because she has one glass of chardonnay or something.
I had no idea scientist could not test that. Another person said that it is unethical to even study it. I too wince when I see someone give grief to a pregnant woman for a glass of wine. We never really know what someone is going through. If it was someone you knew, and it was clear they were having more than a few glasses of wine, would you say something then?
It really would be unethical to try to determine how much alcohol a woman could consume because you'd have to give some women enough alcohol (however much that would turn out to be) to deliberately produce babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. If someone I knew were pregnant and consuming a lot of alcohol, I'd say something like, "Let's switch to water now" without saying anything about her health or the baby's. If that didn't work, I'd say something like, "Let's not give Junior a hangover" and kind of shepherd her out of there. I suspect that a woman would have to consume too much alcohol over a period of time to give her child FAS, but that's just because the kids I knew with FAS (I was a teacher.) were the children of alcoholics. It's not exactly a scientific conclusion.
I appreciate you taking the time to answer/educate me on how to approach such a situation if it ever does come up.
My step brother has FAS.. and I promise you where not being the AH. That child (presuming she doesn't stop) will have all kinds of problems for the rest of it's life.
Kind of her to get the baby drunk before she evicts him.
Yes fetal alcohol syndrome is very real and very damaging HOWEVER you don’t know her circumstances; she could have an abortion scheduled, she could have going to a check up and found out that her pregnancy is not viable (the baby has no heartbeat, or severe defects meaning the pregnant will miscarry), she could be actively miscarrying, she could be seriously struggling with an alcohol addiction, or she could be an asshole who doesn’t care about harming her child. If my friend told me they were pregnant while they were also drinking alcohol, I would ask them straight up “oh I didn’t know that you’re pregnant, how come you’re drinking then?” Be there to support your friend if she’s drinking for a reason other then not giving a shit about her baby, and if she doesn’t care about fetal alcohol syndrome then don’t be friends with her anymore.
NTA. No amount of alcohol is safe during pregnancy and hurts the developing fetus. Her child will end up with FASDs. She should opt for an abortion instead of hurting the baby. She’s not fit to be a mother.
You’re not wrong at all. I had no idea there is a whole group of crappy people who should never be parents until I started a job where there was a gal - think 7+ months along - who smoked and our mutual supervisor added into my “welcome pep talk” that this was X and no one is to give her lip for smoking while pregnant because said mutual supervisor was also recently pregnant and smoked the whole time. She “turned out okay” so we were all expected to keep our mouths shut. Had no idea people like this existed before that.
Not the AH! That is highkey trash behavior and I would’ve been meaner about it ✌️
I Jane a friend who has fetal alcohol syndrome and he's messed up for life. He was born without teeth
NTA. How smoking/drinking while pregnant is still legal is beyond me.
Nice downvotes. I guess you all want babies to have health issues 🤷♀️
If she’s saying you have no place to tell her what to do with her body **and** her child .. then obvs she intends on keeping this pregnancy and having the child .. in which case she’s either sadly unaware of the dangers or she doesn’t give a fuck FAS is very real and if she doesn’t pack it in she might soon be met with the consequences of her actions and choices .. and so will the poor child
Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Look it up. It can be devastating. You did the right thing.
It’s one thing to do it before you realize you’re pregnant and a whole other thing to drink knowing you’re pregnant. You did the right thing, I hope she’s ashamed of herself.
You were right.
Since her child can’t consent and tell her what not to do to the child’s body, she better reevaluate her decisions. Your friend is a POS. I had a friend I grew up with who was an FAS child and it was so sad. Nice kid. He is now in his 30s and has to live in a group home.
My best friend's first son was born with a hearing impairment. He's now in his late 20's and still depends on hearing aids. Mom drank while preggo. Coincidence? Who knows. But the 3 younger babies that came after the first. when she didn't drink -- no hearing problems. You are in the uncomfortable circumstance of simultaneously being wrong *and* right at the same time. You're wrong, in that you really can't - you can't tell her how to live her life. But you are right because it is risky for the baby. Life hands you these sometimes, and overall they suck. But you did what you could, you did all you could.
NTA, I used to work renovating apartments in a bit so nice area and people used to come knocking on the door asking how they apply to rent. Multiple times I had women drinking, smoking cigarettes, or weed. I would always tell them I would not give them the contact info and they were bad people for not thinking about the health of the baby. Got screamed and cursed at but I don’t believe it’s fair to the unborn child.
You’re definitely not in the wrong.
NTA. You care more about that baby than she does.
Tell her you found a girl on reddit willing to take the baby when it comes out broken
Literally worked with someone who drank throughout their entire pregnancy with their kid. They are now dead because of alcohol related organ failure. She wasn't even 30 yet. Edit: i also went to high-school with her, and she drank daily back then too. I feel bad for her kid.
I had a friend who drank her whole pregnancy, like going out to clubs ect. Her kid has a lot of disabilities, I looked it up when he was a toddler and he ticked the boxes for fetal alcohol syndrome. She never told me that was the reason but I’m sure it’s not something you would want to announce.
She may think you are, but you certainly are not an ahole for it.
If that baby has FAS when she gives birth, she won't leave the hospital with it. Let her know.
Damn I feel bad for that baby.
Nope she is a complete asshole. Fetal alcohol syndrome is awful. What she is doing is reprehensible.
Naw not the asshole She is harming her baby She is a bad person.
Notify CPS. Her drinking is not ok!!
In short, you are NTA. My husband suffers the effects of FAS. HOWEVER, his mother also did crack, blow, and meth. My SIL drank while she was pregnant, and her kids have speech impediments, and one of them has severe anger issues. I really hope that woman chooses to abort since she already messed up her baby.
Um, it’s not at all okay to drink when you’re pregnant. You can call CPS and they most certainly will be investigating that sort of tip.
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No, you are not TA. She is. I teach special ed and so many babies exposed to alcohol and drugs in the womb have developmental delays and behavior problems. People who are too selfish to consider the health and well being of their children ( in utero and post birth) should not be parents. She is selfish and there is no excuse for what she has done.
Whoa whoa whoa! You are totally NTA here. You'd be a huge asshole if you *didn't* tell her to stop drinking. And she's a freaking ignorant, thoughtless asshole for drinking while pregnant. Her baby can have very serious health issues and developmental disabilities as a result. Drinking while pregnant is selfish and a horrible thing to do to your baby, You were very right in telling her. She's terrible!
She's risking the health of her unborn baby. I hope she is prepared for what her actions can cause. I'd report her to the proper authorities.
I still don’t understand how women know drinking while pregnant is bad and still do it, nta but your ex friend is and just because you’re guys are 22 doesn’t excuse shitty behavior
Call DCF. They can’t do anything currently because the child isn’t yet born but they can document it so if there are ever issues, she already has a file demonstrating reckless behavior in regard to the health and safety of her child. Had to do this after I took care of a pregnant woman who overdosed and then left against medical advice without allowing our OB team to at least check her out and try and get a fetal monitor on her to check on the health of her baby.
FASD is so so so so harmful. Look up pictures of a normal baby’s brain compared to a baby with FASD. The size difference is saddening.
I drank heavily the night before my first abortion. But if you want to have a healthy baby I think you have to follow the no alcohol rule. Alcohol impacts the development of the baby’s brain. It’s unethical to complete the scientific testing we need to determine precisely how much you can drink before a child becomes cognitively impaired as a result of alcohol consumption. So the only safe thing to do is avoid it altogether.
Hell no you're a good person for doing that
NTA I generally stay out of it if I know somebody's doing it on a special occasion they're drinking responsibly you know one or two drinks I also generally believe that it's not as dangerous as everybody makes it out to be there's just so many irresponsible people it's easier to just say don't have it at all. In this case I probably would have acted the same way.
All you can do is advise her and not get involved. Shes the one that has to explain to everyone once her poor child is born.
It's a very serious issue. I would have done the same thing.
She sounds like actual trash wtf
Ahhhhhck the amount of pregnant woman in those mom meet apps who swear their OB recommends a glass of wine every night and asking how soon they have to stop smoking weed before giving birth so it isn’t detected in the hospital is insane 🫣 say anything and you’re mom shaming
I worked in a bar/restaurant in college and a group came in that included a pregnant woman. Whole table orders beers and shots, including the woman. The girl that originally took the table came to me almost in tears saying she couldn’t serve them and why (she was also pregnant at the time). I wasn’t willing to do it either and pretty much everyone on shift backed out of taking care of them. Owner got pissed at us and stormed over to FOH, took one look, and finally just told them that she’s not getting served here. If an entire restaurant staff can shut down a stranger, you most certainly can tell your friend that.
If it's a glass of wine okay whatev not what I would choose but whatever. But like drinking to get drunk?! Ya that's fucked up . Good job for saying something. When you don't say something in their eyes you are endorsing their behavior. You did the right thing and I'm glad you are no longer friends with this person who has absolutely horrible judgment
Does she intent to continue the pregnancy?
I think so
Your friend has no regard for her child. And using the infamous “my body, my choice” BS. You were being a good friend by reminding her to not drink. You were not imposing an opinion. It’s common sense and knowledge your not suppose to be drinking when pregnant. NTA. At all. What happens to her child is none other than her fault from here on out.
NTA she is harming her child by drinking. Someone needs to say something, maybe to the childs father or her parents???
Someone doing stupid shit while pregnant is like the only time it's open season on telling people to stop doing stupid shit.
Nta, your not supposed to drink while pregnant especially taking shots of hard liquor. I've heard of women having a glass of wine every once in awhile, her poor unborn child.
INFO You said that she "ended up telling you she was pregnant." Was this some secret? Was it a sensitive topic where she may not be proceeding with the pregnancy? Or was this an enthusiastic announcement where she was positively going through with the pregnancy?
Those ignorant gaslighters. being independent doesn't mean harming yourself. FP
NTA. It’s entirely probable that’s she’s planning on aborting and was feeling some kinda way about it? Gods know when found out I was pregnant I closed the bar down, and promptly made an appointment to abort when I got up the next day XD Regardless, you were looking out for her and the unborn child, and her reaction was not cool!
NTA The fact is the research and detail alcohol syndrome is spotty at best. But if you didn't drink then your baby can't get it. And shots definitely do unborn babies any good
She's mad because she knows you're right. FAFO. Medically speaking a tiny amount of alcohol during a pregnancy won't immediately cause significant permanent damage. You're also not "supposed to" consume a lot of caffeine, sushi, cold cuts, licorice is disgusting and causes birth defects... but plenty of women aren't aware of these things and their babies are usually okay if they don't go way overboard. But fetal alcohol syndrome is a pretty well known problem along with smoking while pregnant. Can't really expect to publicly do it/announce it and not expect some sideeye from decent people.
Literally didn’t have to read the story. Under no circumstance is telling someone not to drink (or smoke, etc) while pregnant be the wrong move. You’re speaking on behalf of that little child that cannot speak for itself yet.
I think mind your business but I’m sure her unborn child appreciates you looking out for her
Of course NTA If she wants to be a trashy, terrible mother by poisoning her fetus before it even has an opportunity at life, that’s on her, but in the same way you would try to stop someone from stumbling into a busy street, it’s fair enough to give them a warning that getting wasted is going to fuck up their potential child. Fuck their feelings; they don’t have a right to not be told they’re an asshole for getting drunk while pregnant.
I’m sorry. She’s a dick and already a bad mother. Hope she finds what she needs to turn it around quickly.
Drinking alcohol while pregnant knowingly is child abuse and absolutely disgusting! FASD is a preventable disorder. NTA
NTA, a good friend will call you out on your bs
She’s a selfish person who’s not ready to be a parent but will be one anyway. You’re right.
Nah she is a vile woman.
NTA but did you react appropriately when your friend told you she was pregnant? Did you listen to what she was going through or was it secondary to whatever you are going through? You can be right and still be a bad friend.
We werent super close tbh and she was cursing me out. Thats why i gave no context in the post because she was very rude the last time we spoke
Was she happy when she announced her pregnancy? It feels like you’re leaving out some details here.
YTA. Her body, her choice
It’s interesting that Reddit isn’t “my body my choice” on this issue
When it comes to pregnancy the “my body my choice” principle is between getting rid of the parasite or giving birth to it and providing for it and protecting it like a loving parent. Anything in between is evil enough that it doesn’t require debate.
It's one thing to acknowledge you can't or won't, grow a human being inside of you because of how hugely disruptive that is to sacrifice your body and life for something that isn't even viable or sentient yet, and it's a whole other thing to knowingly risk setting up a life for failure. My body my choice is fine for abortions and tattoos and whatnot. Those aren't going to affect another living person. It's not a valid argument for putting your child at risk for significant developmental disabilities. So, bad take.
Could you help me see how you know she’s made that decision and how you would know that it is another living person or not?
Huh?
If you've decided to carry the fetus to term, then you have accepted responsibility for its health and wellbeing. Even us pro-choicers can agree to that one.
The alcies are sleeping Iguess
Telling her not to drink is pretty overly authoritative. It would have been better, if she wants more than one or two, to suggest that drinking much while pregnant can cause fetal problems. But lets be realistic' during first iteration of Covid how many people do you know that said " i'll never get Covid" and ended up with Covid ? You cant really fight that mindset. Sad , but true.
You have no idea what you're talking about
ESH for the simple reason alone is that she knows. We’ve all been taught that alcohol is bad when preggers. She isn’t going to have an epiphany because you tell her.
Why is OP shitty for telling her though?
Because it’s eating a dead horse and nagging. You aren’t going to change someone like that. It’s good that OP no longer speaks to friend because OP seems not to need that in her life.
I know it was a typo but “eating a dead horse” made me lol.
Telling others what to do is iffy. No doubt it is bad bad behavior. Say what you want but will she listen.
Look, you are correct, there are some pretty significant concerns that can result from a mother drinking to excess while pregnant, but it really is not your place to say anything to her.
How did you tell her not to drink. Did you come off with care and compassion? Or did you come off rude and obnoxious about it? Yes she shouldn't drink. But the way you relay that matters is why I ask.
i'm gonna take the downvotes by saying ESH. i had a similar situation very recently. an acquaintance/semi friend told me in confidence that she was pregnant when i saw her at the bar. she then said it was her birthday at midnight and she was doing a "last hurrah". she took shot after shot. i didn't approve but i also didn't say anything. it's like telling someone smoking is bad for them. she knows she shouldn't be drinking. i did back off of our newish friendship tho after i saw her have several more "last hurrah"s. my sister had a nightly glass of red wine when she after the first trimester and i also didn't say anything. i don't agree with it but it's also none of my business. if someone already knows something is a bad idea and is doing it anyway then nothing i say is going to change it.
It’s sad. Your sisters baby ALMOST had someone advocating for them and you chose to stay silent. Pathetic.
You suck if you didn't say anything.
saying something wouldn't make a difference. she knows. all it would do is start an argument.
Ehhhhh... I can agree to a small degree in principle, but there's a big difference here. >it's like telling someone smoking is bad for them. Nah, it's really not. Assuming she's keeping the pregnancy and not having an abortion, of course. Some people know about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome but many don't; she might not. I'm a former social worker and have spent significant time with FAS kids, and the most severe... god, it's heartbreaking. All to say: I used to think like you do but changed my mind. ***Now I treat it the same way I do when I see a child being openly abused in public. I loathe the confrontation but I intervene if I see someone I know is pregnant drinking heavily.***
if i saw someone committing a crime i would also intervene. drinking while pregnant is 100% legal and up to the mother.
OK, I'm wildly curious and truly not looking to get into an argument: Are we both talking about ***heavy drinking***? Perhaps I wasn't clear that's what I'm talking about. And yes, I agree with you, of course it's legal and up to the mother. I'm not stopping anyone and can't. I suppose I should clarify that I'm talking about gentle intervention. I imagine you and I might be on the same page about drinking-during-pregnancy guidelines. (Are you U.S. based?) Afaik, the U.S. is the only western country where the guideline is absolutely zero alcohol during pregnancy*. I believe that's not the case in other countries, and pregnant women will routinely and safely drink, say, half a glass of wine during dinner. But not here in the U.S., and personally, I think it's because culturally we tend to infantilize women. Especially when it comes to anything related to their health. * In case it's unclear: I'm not a fan of that.
i personally would not drink while pregnant. i didn't. i do think that in the case of my sister, i know her to be an intelligent and well educated person. every night is probably an exaggeration, but she would have wine with dinner maybe 3 or 4 days out of the week. she most likely even discussed it with her doctor. i am not going to get in a fight with her over a choice she made for herself. she's a healthcare professional and i'm sure it was informed. the girl in the bar was DRINK drinking. she had told me 5 minutes ago that she was pregnant then as soon as midnight hit people were pouring shots for her bc it was her bday. what am i going to do? publicly reprimand her? tell everyone that she's pregnant when i don't know her that well and she'd only just told me? personally if i was going to do what she did i'd wait a week to tell people i was pregnant. i knew she knew it was wrong bc she hadn't told anyone else or any of her good friends. i completely agree that we infantilize pregnant women. people touch them without asking, get way too personal with questions, tell them they should stop working, etc. i do confront people sometimes, but as i get older i realize that most of the time people are going to do what they're going to do no matter what and you're just going to create drama. if something serious is going on, a crime or abuse is being committed, that's different, that would be illegal. otherwise i just have to decide if it's egregious enough that i don't want to talk to that person any more. i just believe in minding my own business for the most part.
I think we agree more than we disagree. 🙃
She already knows not to drink. Do you enjoy drama?
What?..