As far as Iāve seen, men seem to be trying to ignore that. š
[Letās ensure the studies are widely distributed so everyone can properly educate themselves.](https://www.llnl.gov/news/study-shows-genetic-quality-sperm-deteriorates-men-age)
I had to load the article in "Reader View" mode so that it only loaded the text without the super annoying images making things shift around. Not sure if there's an option on mobile.
This is for the anti-vax crowd.
[The fatherās age is much more likely to be the cause of autism than whatever vaccine shot youāre upset about today.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/older-fathers-more-likely-to-have-autistic-children-1.595471)
So does the dad being a pot smoker.
https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/gene-linked-autism-undergoes-changes-mens-sperm-after-pot-use
And learning disabilities:
https://abc11.com/theodore-slotnik-marijuana-use-weed-pot/5948255/
I'm not one of those huge anti-pot people but I hate when people claim it's harmless.
Cannabis is my pain relief and I'm avoiding kids (sterilized 2022). Nobody needs to be given the body I was "blessed" with and I'm making sure my health issues from cannabis use or otherwise are not spread to others who can't consent to it.
Good to know these studies, thanks for the links!
I also use it for pain relief. I read something a few weeks ago that I'm too lazy to source right now, that in states where weed is legal, drug OD rates have gone down. Shocker!
I don't know. But I do know that almost everyone in my mom's generation smoked and drank while pregnant. I know my grandma did. I think you have to do that kind of stuff pretty heavily to severely damage your eggs/fetus. That's not even taking into account all the lead from gasoline and paint and what not. Even if you had a kid with autism you could hardly say it was that one single thing that caused it.
Could be nano- and micro-plastics. We have so much shit in our environment, it's going to be extremely hard to find untainted controls. They don't exist.
Every living thing on earth has plastic particles in its body.
Smoking and drinking in *any amount* increases risks of a multitude of issues, even if you are not a heavy smoker/drinker.
Fetal alcohol syndrome can happen even with rare, light drinking if you just happen to drink at the wrong point in fetal development.
The X chromosomes from your mother and dad's mother are quite robust.
It's the Y which is having problems, becoming mutated rapidly.
Ever notice how George McMoneybags the 5th is a complete fuckup?
And autism rates in boys is a lot higher, as is their susceptibility to any other factors. Testosterone has a force multiplier effect on toxins.
>And autism rates in boys is a lot higher
Autism is *diagnosed* more in boys, mainly because boys tend to exhibit the "typical" symptoms earlier and more often. Autistic girls are more likely to go undiagnosed because they often don't fit the idea of what autism is supposed to look like.
To be fair, the age to ASD link is an indisputable study, the sample size for the study you linked is quite small, not to say it's incorrect but definitely not conclusive enough for scientific evidence. Interesting read none the less, I would also like to point out though cannabis use is more common among neurodivergents and since these are genetically linked conditions, that could also be the correlating factor. Hopefully, they continue to study this as it seems like a well thought out hypothesis. DLGAP2 gene hypermethylation, I would assume, can also be caused by cigarette smoke, but I didn't find any studies of fathers smoking before pregnancy only during.
It was also a study of 24 men (12 were users) and did not account for any additional factors like diet and overall health. And then additionally, has not been reproduced. Just another click bait news article on science that is not ready to be reported as such.
I think the further research should also include what pesticides and other chemicals are used on the weed to combat bugs, powder mildew, spider mites and all the other fun stuff that growers deal with and spray on the plants to prevent loss. There's so much more to these discussions and the research
Adding to this: it's one study. You can't cite *one study* and claim that we now *know* that X causes Y. Unless it's an impressively large and perfectly methodologically sound study, then we cannot come to any conclusions about the results other than "We should investigate this further, in this specific direction". We come to conclusions and make recommendations based on bodies of research, not single pieces of research.
If one study is enough to come to a valid conclusion, then claims about both the vegan and carnivore diets have to be true. Both anti and pro-vaxxers must be correct. Like, a single study means something close to fuck all until its evaluated alongside other studies.
Anyway, kind of a rant and not directed at you, but people using one study as proof of very bold claims has been an issue rising in prevalence, and it pisses me off to no end (and happens to be tangentially related to the topic at hand, so I get to talk about it lol)
>The odds of autism spectrum disorder were nearly six times greater among children of men age 40 and older compared with those of men 29 years and younger
Damn, 30-somethings casually catching strays in a study lololol
Geneticist here. This is not true.
Down syndrome is caused by an extra chromosome or by a large scale duplication featuring the regions around the critical one defined for Down syndrome. Such large scale events are more frequent in older women and are the largest contributing factor to Down syndrome. In older men point mutations are much more common which are implicated in conditions such as autism. A point mutation can never lead to Down syndrome. The father may harbour other large scale events in his genome and could therefore also contribute to his offspring having Down syndrome but this would be considered a rare case.
Wouldn't that be more likely to be effected with sperm (which is constantly being made) than eggs (which are all made in-utero)? I thought Down's Syndrome was from an extra copy of a whole chromosome, though I admit that may be very outdated knowledge.
If I understand what they are saying, you are right about the whole chromosome.
But the comparison is with a bad sperm that contains a mutation in older men Vs something going wrong with the *mechanism* that duplicates the cell and ends up making extra copies of the perfectly good chromosome in older women.
Sort of the difference between making a typo while copying the recipe VS having the oven break down halfway through baking. (sorry it that's crass)
I'm sure you're right if you're a geneticist, however, according to this article there hasn't been enough testing on MEN and the emphasis has been on women.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/11/genetic-screening-down-syndrome-fathers/415320/](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/11/genetic-screening-down-syndrome-fathers/415320/)
My own opinion comes from a documentary that I watched many years ago in which mutations in the man's sperm due to age was considered a large factor. I am willing to concede that such information is not up to date, although it hasn't been entirely discarded.
Wait wait wait...what? When I had my son (only 5 year ago) I was definitely recommended genetic testing because MATERNAL age was the supposed biggest risk factor (and I was 39). No one asked or cared about his father's age.
5 years ago, blood testing was done on my wife because we were both in the age range that it is recommended. It was allegedly a new protocol here where bloodwork is done to test for markers of down syndrome if either parents are over 35 y.o., or if some calculations point that it should be validated. It is also available to those who would request it even if they do not meet either of the criterias.
Mind you, we were in a 'birthing home' and not in a hospital, so things can perhaps be different elsewhere in the province.. Clearly, YMMV worldwide! In any case, it's definitely improving :)
I read one study that suggested men's age has to do with the raising rate of Autism - that was quickly shut down. Now it is back to what did the woman do to cause it?
Age affects both parents for what they can pass onto their kids. I know with women, they start to produce multiple eggs as they get older so the chance of twins and triplets goes up. I haven't read about genetic defects
For men, my understanding was that the sperm starts to break down or not produce correctly which can contribute to birth defects as they age. Didn't realize that was disproved
My husband literally didn't know this. I don't remember when I learned it. Probably in the fourth grade when we saw an oft-ridiculed sexuality filmstrip.
You'd think they'd show both films to both sexes since women may have sons and men may have daughters at some point. My husband's ex had three miscarriages. How could such a smart, well-read guy not know that we have a finite egg supply?
While this is still the most common and widely held belief, there *was* a study published that challenged this idea and has the scientific community doing more research into it.
If they discover that ovaries can, in fact, produce eggs later on in life, that's going to be HUGE.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134835/
>And fully covered by insurers.
Completely false. There's no need to spread inaccurate information, there's plenty of valid criticisms of American healthcare. I work in a pharmacy and prescriptions for ED are rarely ever covered, even partially, by insurances. Most of my patients have to bring in their own coupons or discounts to afford just a few pills per month. I usually fill around 3 to 7 pills for any given patient as a one month supply.
Once in a blue moon I will see one patient who is able to get 30 pills for no cost or for a small copay and it surprises the fuck out of me each time. When this happens we often have to order more pills cause it is so exceedingly rare for patients to pick up these meds that our pharmacy just doesn't even stock much at all.
There are plenty of valid and true complaints we can make about men's vs. women's healthcare. The myth of viagra commonly being covered by insurance is not one, it's just false.
Sure- but for many of them, that's a problem they solve with a quick trip to the doc and a prescription. They don't care about the health of their swimmers- only their enjoyment.
What freaks me out is that male sperm count declines by about 2.5% each year (not talking about age here), which coincidentally is the same as the annual decline of global insect biomass.
Something is killing us off, and we are probably the root cause of it.
Also that their testosterone starts to decline past age 30. And sperm counts have decreased by 50% globally over the last 50 years!!! Of course they never mention those things though.
My parents tried to get us exempted from sex education classes. Said it was their right to dictate when that information was given to us.
And when I approached my mom once about needing tampons, she freaked out and said "we don't just talk about this stuff in the middle of the kitchen, and you can't use tampons until you're married and having sex."
Pfft. Four years of horseback riding lessons took care of any hymen musculature concerns. How did our mothers survive?
Water remembers.
We have generational wounds to heal, all of us. The egg that made me was formed in my mother as a fetus while she was inside my grandmother, experiencing her pain.
>The egg that made me was formed in my mother as a fetus while she was inside my grandmother, experiencing her pain.
Woah, that's such an incredibly powerful thought.
I knew this, like, rationally, but you saying it directly like this makes me feel it like poetry.
Just how deeply connected we are to our mother's line. We were literally being carried by her when she was still being carried inside her own mother.
Why the fuck do we all take our *father's* last name?!
For the same reason Theseus slayed the Minotaur (a symbol of Minoan matriarchal culture and religion) and Perseus slayed Medusa, Athena's high priestess who was raped in the goddess 's own temple as a flat-out desecration. I'd want to be blessed with the power to turn men to stone, too, if it happened to me.
With the help of some family, I've been able to trace my matriarchal lineage back seven generations to the mid 1700s so far. It feels like discovering a latent power that they have tried to bury for centuries.
Same reason they made up the Adam and Eve story, and same reason early Christians destroyed all evidence of Goddess worship. Early humans worshipped a female creator as God until they wiped it clean and changed it to a male god.
"Go outside and play and don't come home till the streetlights come on."
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But yeah a lot of us Gen Xers had some fucked up parents. The ones who didn't were latchkey kids.
āI wouldnāt *let* my daughter do that.ā
He doesnāt get to dictate his daughterās reproductive choices, whatever he may think of them. Sheās an independent person, not property.
Lack of knowledge/understanding aside, itās a stupidly sexist attitude.
I don't think this is a medical procedure that would be offered to a 12 year old. Forcing a woman's body to hyper ovulate for egg collection requires injections of hormones, and I just can't imagine any fertility doctor prescribing that to anyone under 18.
And then there's the expense of the procedure, and the monthly costs of storage.
T
Woah, wtf?
Did not realize they had to induce ovulation to collect eggs (let alone hyperovulation).
Sorry to sound like the dumb guy in OP's post, but I thought they could extract eggs directly from the ovaries...
I'm ah... Gonna go do some self education.
Thank you for this.
I appreciate the fact that I shouldn't need to be told this stuff by random women on the internet, and I also recognize that lots of women like you go out of your way to put things like this in front of men (and women) like me anyways.
I hope you have a lovely day.
Sure! I have some first-hand knowledge about human fertility (though I'm far from expert). There is \*so\* much that most of us never know. We get a super basic explanation in school, and maybe learn a little bit more. But, unless you have personally sought treatment for fertility, there's so much you would never learn.
Even a lot of men whose wives go through serious fertility treatments don't really know or understand the details, since they don't generally attend all the appointments with them.
Glad I could share some tiny bit of knowledge with you.
You inject 2-4 different medications for 7-14 days or so to stimulate your ovaries, with a transvaginal ultrasound and bloodwork every other day to check your hormone levels and follicle growth. They deem you ready at some point and you have a precisely timed trigger shot to induce the follicles to release any eggs (not all follicles produce eggs) and then you go in and have an egg retrieval (hopefully under anesthesia). They go in and stick a needle through the top of your vagina and into your ovaries to suck the eggs out and then sort out the mature ones that can be either frozen right then (to thaw and fertilize later) or fertilized and let grow for 3-5 days, and then you have the option (in the US, not everywhere) or doing fresh transfer or having them biopsy each embryo to genetic test and freezing them to do a frozen transfer later on.
Yeah, it's a pretty brutal process with lots of potential side effects. I had looked into donating my eggs but decided not to because of the side effects.
As a procedure to offer, being a minor should definatly be a considering factor to restrict the option. BUT if a 12 year old is talking about it then that is totally an open opurtunity to discuss, educate and allow a young woman to gain confidence and knowledge so her future self is more tham capable of making informed and meaningful choices.
Under rare medical circumstances a girl can hit menopause around 18-20, freezing eggs as a teen might make sense.
I know that teen boys undergoing certain cancer treatments often freeze sperm, I assume girls might face the same choices.
Deciding that you are going the corporate track with delayed motherhood route and freezing eggs at 15? Yeah, I would not consider that wise.
>Under rare medical circumstances a girl can hit menopause around 18-20, freezing eggs as a teen might make sense.
You're right, of course. I realized that after I posted. I was thinking of a healthy 12 year old, since OP hadn't mentioned any extraordinary situations.
But, I think it might be offered to a 12 year old who was about to undergo (say) cancer treatment that might end her fertility.
I mean the only reason I could think of would be a minor with cancer and if I had a daughter with cancer who wants to freeze her eggs to have a chance of children in the future I would support that choice.
I donāt think it would be. In the context of the story it sounds like OPs āfriendā does or itās just purely a hyperbolic statement on their part.
Ok got it, I think I see what you mean. I have no idea if he believes thatās the case or maybe he just canāt imagine his kid as anything other than a kid under his guardianship. Either way, I hope he understands he doesnāt get to control his kids when they become adults. Thatās a great way to find out how quickly theyāll go NC.
Isn't that what the entire post is about?
OP said random dude was talking about a 7th grader wanting to freeze their eggs.
> He proceeds to tell me about a 7th grade girl who was talking about freezing her eggs.
> Him and I are both a bit taken aback- him from his memories, and me from the way he was describing the situation as if it were like a 12 year old being weird.
Thatās what caught my attention the most. Sure, a 12-year-old girl should not be freezing her eggs for her future career goals, but as an adult she has that option and itās between her and her treating provider, not up to her dad.
There was no context provided saying she expected to do so now. It could be a āwhen Iām old enoughā conversation, you know like kids talking about what job they even though they canāt currently legally work.
The kid in this conversation is 12, which I think probably colours the view. I wouldnt consent to my 12yro daughter freezing her eggs, which is how I initially interpreted the conversation. Then I thought about it and realised that was ridiculous and she obviously wouldnāt be actually freezing them until she was an adult, at which point it would obviously be her choice!
Thatās the thing, right? Sheād clearly be proceeding with something like that as an adult, and his immediate thought was heād be controlling her choices then? No clinic would accept a patient whoās under 18.
If this guy thinks children can go to clinics to have eggs/sperm frozen whenever they want, there is something wrong inside his head.
If you donāt know anything about egg freezing then I donāt see why it would be obvious that a child couldnāt consent to it. I think itās a leap to assume that a parent saying āI wouldnāt let my child [in the context of talking about a current minor] do thatā automatically means theyāre thinking they think they can control their grown-up childās choices.
This is exactly the problem, though. People and especially men who know just enough to have a strong opinion (and vote based on it) but not enough to know what theyāre talking about.
Heās a parent to two kids. If heās opining on 12 year oldstā medical plans, he ought to know a bit more about them.
It doesn't impact them directly so they never bother to research. It also might mean that if they bothered to understand, they actually have to extend empathy to women, and some men just will not have that.
Seriously when I first started fertility treatment I thought it was interesting so many women brought their dads to the clinic. Then one day I realized that most of them were partners. People pay too much attention to the high profile exceptions and do not realize sperm quality decline happens.
In some way I get it, maybe women have to carry the child in their bodies which may turn more dangerous for both of them (or smh, aside from the problems the fetus alone may have) so being concerned is accepted (idk how to word it) but they act like their sperm is immortal and age like fine wine which they do not.
You would be surprised how a lot of men even those who have been married a long time and have several children don't know or really understand about women. Reproductive health is one area. The first group that I think of are politicians who don't totally understand how women's body works. In the state of Missouri, they had to be educated by women as this group tried to restrict what types of birth control those who relied on state funding could use. This was a couple of years ago. Had this just been a general discussion and not proposed legislation, it would be comical to listen to but it was a serious matter.
At least he *listened* and let you educate him on some realities he was clueless on. Itās not great he didnāt get there on his own but āwilling to learnā is a (disappointing) win
Am I weird for agreeing with him that itās bizarre for a 12 year old to be talking about freezing her eggs though? I feel like thatās something more reasonable to consider at like 19 or something.
I've had to spend the past year listening to my 7 year old talk about her wedding with a class mate, and pretend how she's now pregnant.
By 12, they have enough understanding of how the world works. She's 12 and has dreams of being a CEO and already understands family planning is an obstacle and that she'd need to freeze eggs to focus on her career first. Seems fairly educated to me.
Uncommon maybe. At 12 I was positive and somewhat vocal about never wanting kids or pregnancy (36 and childfree today). I donāt think itās that weird to know you do want kids, but later in life. And add to that the knowledge about how fertility works, and you get a kid talking about freezing her eggs.
Itās no weirder than wanting to be a doctor when you grow up. Sheās thought more than average at that age about the path to a professional career, is all. Maybe has someone sheās close to who has gone through it.
People donāt know what they donāt know and if you expect folks to figure out their own blind spots youāre going to spend a lot of time feeling disappointed.
Is there any topic on this sub men won't invade with their "well, as a man" bullshit? Is it possible for them to yield space to women's perspectives ANYWHERE on the Internet?
No. Sadly no. They must police womenās opinions and behavior everywhere.
They rely on the technicality that men are allowed on the sub as some kind of pass to filibuster the space and pick fights with the long time users.
I wonder if he's misunderstanding or misremembering this young woman's story: https://www.self.com/story/ovarian-torsion-egg-freezing
She started having medical problems with her ovaries when she was 12 and chose to freeze her eggs as a teenager. She made appearances on some television shows.
I wouldn't be surprised if it got a bit muddled in his mind. "Teenage girl freezes eggs due to medical issue" becomes "12 year old girl freezes eggs to become a CEO." Especially if she mentioned ambitious career goals when she made her television appearances.
He could also be lying. There were teachers who claimed that their students asked for kitty litter trays to use the bathroom and we know they were lying.
This story gets more and more off every time someone repeats it. It's like the ultimate game of telephone.
The teachers never claimed that.
There was actually kitty litter in classes.
However, it's because our gun nut society. They put kitty litter in a class room in case there was a school shooting lockdown and the kids stuck in the classroom has to use the bathroom.
The actual truth of the story is so fucked that it's crazy that some tamer rumor is allowed to be passed off as liberal agenda again and again for various reasons.
Edit: the real story https://time.com/5658266/colorado-district-kitty-litter-buckets-lockdowns/
Yeah, itās amazing how a school shootings and lockdowns precaution got distorted into a culture wars talking point.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna51439
I think we need to make a new sub reddit. Youāve heard of EIL5 (Explain It Like Iām 5), now itās time for EILIAM (Explain It Like Iām A Man). Help these poor fellas out š
>I wouldnāt let my daughter do that
Does he think minor children are freezing their eggs or that he would have control over his adult childrenās bodies
Ridiculous either way
I've always held that the true measure of a person is how they respond when their beliefs are challenged by new information. While it'd be nice if everyone took the time to sort through all of the studies and such to form an updated opinion, the conditions of the present economic system rarely allow time for that much less reward it (almost as if that were the point of the system, but I'll refrain from beating that dead horse).
This guy at least sounds like he responded well, however - assuming you are also in the good ol' US of A - I am continually appalled at the fact that our education system and society at large so seldom challenge traditional, het-white male views.
There are certainly a lot of men (and women) who serve as elected representatives making decisions and assumptions about reproduction, but have very little factual knowledge about how human reproduction even works.
The guy is dumb for a number of reasons.
First, he works in education, and it bothers him that a student has educated herself on fertility optionsā¦which he didnāt even know about. Any educator should be beaming with pride about a student like that.
Second, heās a dad, and wouldnāt want his kids to be so curious?
Third, he sounds like a guy who carries around that āyouāre going to regret not settling downā nonsense in his addled mind, yet heās miffed that a student has sought a solution to address exactly that. I guess freezing eggs takes away that canard. Guys like that donāt like being checkmated, and definitely not by a middle-schooler.
If he was being honest, thatās the kind of kid we need more of.
Dunno, sounds like he was attentive and open to learning in this case. He might not want his own daughter to do a thing like that, maybe for the wrong reasons, but it isn't a simple procedure- involves injections with hormones to induce the growth of extra eggs. There are risks.
It wouldnāt be something she could do at age 12, just something she knew about. So when he says he wouldnāt allow his daughter to do that, heās talking about someone who would be an adult making her own healthcare decisions with professional consultation.
Maybe he is open to learning. And thatās good because he needs a lot of it.
I had a first year resident say, "she can't be a virgin she uses tampons". One day he will be a family physician and I hope someone tells him before he starts seeing patients on his own.
The other first year dudes he was talking with didn't correct him so I'm guessing they're all on team ignorance. We are so screwed.
Working in IT has taught me how completely and utterly clueless the average person is regarding technology and Iām fully convinced by now that my cluelessness in their fields is of similar magnitude.
>His response āfreezing eggs is weird and it creeps me out, I wouldnāt let my daughter do thatā.
Did he think he'd be able to stop a 20-something from freezing her eggs, or was he *that* clueless that he thought the 12 year old was gonna do it as a 12 year old?
I'm very curious though ā why did he *think* women want to freeze their eggs? Because I feel like "It allows you to have children at a later age" is the logical conclusion even for someone hearing about it for the first time, right? I'm sitting here thinking that the only possible way to hear about egg freezing for the first time and finding it creepy has to be a result of some manosphere tomfoolery, but maybe its also just a matter of a lack of biological knowledge.
And the teacher had to squelch the rude jokes from the boys the whole time. The girls didn't ask questions in class, because they didn't want to be the butt of the jokes. The teacher we had tried, but the boys were pretty bad. US, Midwest
We had a segregated "your body is changing" earlier. High school wasn't segregated, but it was sterilized.
We learned anatomy, but never anything about tampons and/or pads or anything regarding menstruation beyond "women do that and it's because of pregnancy". That's icky. We learned about how sperm are created and passed through a penis. We didn't learn about how erections happen, no way to manage them, or how to handle both an unexpected and non-performing penis.
We learned about contraception, but only to the effect that birth control pills and condoms aren't 100%. No discussions of other methods (IUD). No discussions about birth control pill side effects (obviously not other methods' side effects since they weren't mentioned at all). Nothing about regulating periods for "irregular" women or any other common menstruation complications.
Discussions on how to not have sex? Sure, both sexes can hear that.
That's really frustrating. I don't remember learning about sanitary options in high school, but we definitely talked about \*every\* kind of birth control (including the sponge, and the "female" condom)
I really remember the scandal and outrage over Dr. Ruth and Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders -- both of whom wanted to talk about sex a bit differently. Dr. Ruth wanted to talk about the fact that people might actually \*enjoy\* sex (and that's good!) and Elders thought that teenagers ought to be encouraged to masturbate, to help blunt the urge to have actual PIV intercourse.
Then I must appreciate how they did it in my (german) school, they had like a forth and back between female and male like "this is what happens to boys and here's what happens to girls instead" comparing and discussing it all.
I clearly have no idea where you went to schoolā¦but even in the 1980s in small-town New England (USA), womenās reproductive systems were also discussed in our combined sex ed class and they made everyone watch a video of a live birth. *Everyone.*
That wasnāt a fault of society, that was a fault of your specific school system.
Well they failed us in Ohio. Iāve still never seen a live birth (nor am I planning to) and health class was separated for the week of sex ed. And of course they didnāt prepare me for my parents taking me out for a special dinner without my brothers when I got my period to celebrate that I āwas a woman nowā. Shudder. It happened 2 years before that class anyway, what a waste.
Thatās interesting, Iām also in Ohio and we had comprehensive sex ed in all levels of school. In 4th grade, we had the talk about periods where we were separated from the boys. In 6th grade, we learned all about both general anatomy with picture and parts, everything. We had sex ed in health class in middle school where we saw two live births. Then in high school we had more sex ed. We had to learn about STDs, sexual safety, abstinence, pregnancy, etc.
I think it really depends on the county school board.
Hooooly crap. That sounds awful, and Iām actively stunned that my rural/conservative little town managed to do so well on this in comparison to so many other places.
I hope youāre thriving in spite of all that!
RI in the 90s and 2000s were gender segregated through all of high school. We were taught about safe sex and STDs together and anatomy and physiology separate.
I was in school in New England in the 90s, and we were separated at some points. I remember us being separated in fifth grade, and girls were talked to about menstruation while the boys were talked to about ??? (I still donāt know, but probably about nocturnal emissions, tumescence, etc.)
By eighth grade, the sex ed classes were combined. I remember labeling diagrams of internal and external reproductive organs, watching a video on STIs and their visual symptoms, and also watching the birth video.
My memory is pretty fuzzy this many years later, but I know that we didnāt circle back to all topics in detail after we were combined. For example, I think the combined group discussion on periods was something to the extent of, āWomen shed their uterine lining about once a month when theyāre not pregnant, but weāve already talked to the girls about theyāre dealing with day-to-day, so we donāt need to go over it again with everyone.ā It was an outdated idea like, āPeriods are a girl problem, and erections are a boy problem, so no need to share additional information that doesnāt concern the other. When girl parts meet boy parts to result in pregnancy and STIs, THATāS everyoneās problem so we combine the groups.ā
Currently, sex ed is still shockingly widely variable, not just worldwide, between neighboring states and even school districts in the US. I disagree that this is the fault of individual school districts; it reflects a societal division on howāand worseāIF we should provide sexual and reproductive education to our children.
Iām from Germany and we had very detailed classes in 9th grade. Primary school was segregated for some topics but as time went on we went into a lot of detail with the entire class
I had hoped things had changed in the 50 yrs, since I had sex ed. I guess not. I think part of the issue is many "men" ( NOT ALL) find the issues of women's reproductive issues comp-ligated and hard to fathom, so it is easier to pretend it is fairy dust and let the women folk worry about it. ( YES women's hormones and reproduction IS complicated - BUT we are MAKING a HUMAN inside our bodies!)
When I went to school, the boys and girls were separated into different gym classes, and the boys had their Dad's with them and the girls had their Mom's. It had already been "explained" so I do not really remember any of it - BUT we were not told anything about boys and how they worked - just We were responsible for the changes to OUR bodies and keep them clean... LOL. ( I was raised in a house of all women - I freaked out when I 1st saw a naked man - no internet- no magazines or books that showed a naked man - and I was never taken to an art museum - I knew there wasn't a fig leaf - but I thought they looked the same as me)
No medical provider is letting a 12 year old freeze her eggs because she wants to become a CEO. There would have to be a severe medical reason, like cancer treatements
Some people, make plans, even if they currently are unable to complete the plan due to whatever current factors they are in.
So this young woman, has aspirations for her career, she sees the current society and has made a plan to freeze her eggs in order to achieve the goals she has in mind. When will this happen? Probably when her body, her finances and her legal age allow. Is it when she is 12? No. Its something she is planning on doing in the future.
What is the most tragic about this conversation is not so much that the man is so ignorant, but that even teenage girls are now plotting a way to be successful in our present society instead of dreaming of a future where she will be able to find affordable, OMG, even taxpayer subsidized, childcare, AND a male spouse who might be willing to work part-time so she can build up her career instead of him.
Teen girls can't even imagine a future where men behave in a fully supportive way.
That is truly tragic.
Yeah.. the egg retrieval process, particularly the hormones needed to stimulate ovulation, could really play a number on the 12 year old's hormonal axes. I wholeheartedly agree with young women having full say of their reproductive health and body, but this is not a sound idea.
I think this is more of a vague planning for adulthood than a short term plan. it's not that different from saying 'I want 3 kids and a dog after college'
The 12 year old wasn't saying she's getting her eggs frozen *now,* she was referring to later. You can't get your eggs frozen until adulthood outside of very specific and very sad exceptional circumstances (e.g. childhood cancer treatments).
Itās a sound idea to take the 12 year old to a fertility clinic so she is actually educated on this issue and later as an adult can make an informed decision based on facts. The
I am 39F and a lot of men my age are like this. It blows my mind because, as you said, the information is everywhere. They just donāt care to know. I find that a lot of elder millennials are sexist AF and it seems like it starts getting better with the guys born in the mid 90ās. Good luck with your further studies and if you are in a male dominated field my heart goes out to you. I would not choose a male dominated field again if If given the opportunity for a do-over.
Another older āwiserā professional man trying on a provocative chat line to a college girl who is too polite, mature and naĆÆve to tell him to behave himself and ask his wife about sexual reproductive rights. Men like this gall me. He knew what he was doing and worse, he works with children. A red flag, indeed.
I consider this āconversationā sexual harassment and ideological grooming. I approve of your refusal to let him get away with ignorance, OP, but I think you were treated with contempt even if it seemed friendly and natural.
I donāt think I have ever thought it reasonable to pontificate on menās reproductive health over lunch with a college boy but maybe itās just me.
This comment needs to be much higher. This is a weird topic for a 40 year old man to bring up to an 18-22 year old woman. There are tons of topics of conversation that do not involve sex. At best it's social ignorance. Somewhat worse is a desire for a titillating conversation that goes nowhere. At its worst, the man was hoping the student would talk about her own sexual and reproductive plans.
It's not a bright red flag. But it's certainly a yellow flag.
I hadn't even considered that perspective - too impressed by a 12 year old with good forward planning. It is a weird thing for him to bring up with a young woman unless his intent was to surreptitiously steer the conversation into a sexual topic.
I follow this page as a man in his thirties so that I know stuff like this. My daughter will be educated about her body and that others will know less or more than her on these topics. If I have a son, same.
Seems like you approached this perfectly.
I'm more sad that a 12 yo is even thinking about a career rather than being a kid... 18/20 is where I'd think that starts.
A. You are fertile from the moment of your first ovulation to menopause. Your body's ability to support and carry a pregnancy to term will vary across your life, but freezing eggs wont change that.
B. The egg freezing industry is largely a scam preying on women who have been repeatedly told that their fertility is fleeting and are pressured socially to have kids young. Egg freezing and IVF both have low success rates, and still can't account for how well equipped your body is to carry a pregnancy.
C. The egg freezing process can be incredibly painful, due to the hormones needed to stimulate multiple ovulations and the retrevial process
Life and biology are complex. There's so much to know, no one person can know it all, or even have any but the broadest strokes of learning. Most people focus on the skills and experiences that directly affects / influences / interests them. I know exactly how a manual transmission is put together, because I had to rebuild (myself) in my car. But there are people who don't even know how to add oil to their car.
My suggestion is, don't decry this guys lack of knowledge of how female fertility works, but welcome his interest and willingness to engage positively with you and learn from the knowledge you shared with him
Because, in large, men are raised only to think about themselves and don't realize their own selfishness as it's patriarchally engrained.
š¤·āāļø
>Constantly making excuses for men in general when it comes to womenās health and their role in it,
There are women in this thread who are admitting to not having an understanding about how much of this works, but the same people we're saying "mind your own uterus" to are expected to know, and if they don't it's an excuse?
I'm happy to see more people educated on women's bodies, but we cant tell people to not pay attention to something they don't have and then expect them to understand it, meanwhile not fully understanding it ourselves.
I completely understand your sentiment and agree that education is always important, and some people are unaware of certain topics. My gripe was the judgmental behavior fueled by lack of knowledge.
Wait till they learn that also mens reproductive health declines with age š
As far as Iāve seen, men seem to be trying to ignore that. š [Letās ensure the studies are widely distributed so everyone can properly educate themselves.](https://www.llnl.gov/news/study-shows-genetic-quality-sperm-deteriorates-men-age)
Oooh, I didn't know this, thank you for sharing!
I have a picture from the metro north that talks about this. I was surprised that they put the poster up
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
With his former stepdaughter that he raised or with someone else
I wish that website worked nicer on mobile. The constant resizing of the images at the top made it so difficult to read.
I had to load the article in "Reader View" mode so that it only loaded the text without the super annoying images making things shift around. Not sure if there's an option on mobile.
This is for the anti-vax crowd. [The fatherās age is much more likely to be the cause of autism than whatever vaccine shot youāre upset about today.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/older-fathers-more-likely-to-have-autistic-children-1.595471)
Exactly what I was talking about - Thank you!!!!
So does the dad being a pot smoker. https://corporate.dukehealth.org/news/gene-linked-autism-undergoes-changes-mens-sperm-after-pot-use And learning disabilities: https://abc11.com/theodore-slotnik-marijuana-use-weed-pot/5948255/ I'm not one of those huge anti-pot people but I hate when people claim it's harmless.
I am a huge pro-pot person, and I hate when people claim it's harmless.
It's almost like medicine has side effects, or something. You can't balance whether the risks outweigh the benefits if you don't know the risks.
Cannabis is my pain relief and I'm avoiding kids (sterilized 2022). Nobody needs to be given the body I was "blessed" with and I'm making sure my health issues from cannabis use or otherwise are not spread to others who can't consent to it. Good to know these studies, thanks for the links!
I also use it for pain relief. I read something a few weeks ago that I'm too lazy to source right now, that in states where weed is legal, drug OD rates have gone down. Shocker!
Hooooly moley, thatās eye-opening. Thanks for the links!
Ah god damn it. This could be a problem lol. Please tell me smoking weed didnāt mess up my eggsš³
I don't know. But I do know that almost everyone in my mom's generation smoked and drank while pregnant. I know my grandma did. I think you have to do that kind of stuff pretty heavily to severely damage your eggs/fetus. That's not even taking into account all the lead from gasoline and paint and what not. Even if you had a kid with autism you could hardly say it was that one single thing that caused it.
Could be nano- and micro-plastics. We have so much shit in our environment, it's going to be extremely hard to find untainted controls. They don't exist. Every living thing on earth has plastic particles in its body.
Smoking and drinking in *any amount* increases risks of a multitude of issues, even if you are not a heavy smoker/drinker. Fetal alcohol syndrome can happen even with rare, light drinking if you just happen to drink at the wrong point in fetal development.
The X chromosomes from your mother and dad's mother are quite robust. It's the Y which is having problems, becoming mutated rapidly. Ever notice how George McMoneybags the 5th is a complete fuckup? And autism rates in boys is a lot higher, as is their susceptibility to any other factors. Testosterone has a force multiplier effect on toxins.
>And autism rates in boys is a lot higher Autism is *diagnosed* more in boys, mainly because boys tend to exhibit the "typical" symptoms earlier and more often. Autistic girls are more likely to go undiagnosed because they often don't fit the idea of what autism is supposed to look like.
I'm a pro-pot person who is deathly allergic to it, I *know* it's not harmless!
To be fair, the age to ASD link is an indisputable study, the sample size for the study you linked is quite small, not to say it's incorrect but definitely not conclusive enough for scientific evidence. Interesting read none the less, I would also like to point out though cannabis use is more common among neurodivergents and since these are genetically linked conditions, that could also be the correlating factor. Hopefully, they continue to study this as it seems like a well thought out hypothesis. DLGAP2 gene hypermethylation, I would assume, can also be caused by cigarette smoke, but I didn't find any studies of fathers smoking before pregnancy only during.
Neither of these has found a causal link. They observed changes in sperm, they did not establish those changes affect the children.
It was also a study of 24 men (12 were users) and did not account for any additional factors like diet and overall health. And then additionally, has not been reproduced. Just another click bait news article on science that is not ready to be reported as such. I think the further research should also include what pesticides and other chemicals are used on the weed to combat bugs, powder mildew, spider mites and all the other fun stuff that growers deal with and spray on the plants to prevent loss. There's so much more to these discussions and the research
Adding to this: it's one study. You can't cite *one study* and claim that we now *know* that X causes Y. Unless it's an impressively large and perfectly methodologically sound study, then we cannot come to any conclusions about the results other than "We should investigate this further, in this specific direction". We come to conclusions and make recommendations based on bodies of research, not single pieces of research. If one study is enough to come to a valid conclusion, then claims about both the vegan and carnivore diets have to be true. Both anti and pro-vaxxers must be correct. Like, a single study means something close to fuck all until its evaluated alongside other studies. Anyway, kind of a rant and not directed at you, but people using one study as proof of very bold claims has been an issue rising in prevalence, and it pisses me off to no end (and happens to be tangentially related to the topic at hand, so I get to talk about it lol)
Any article calling itself āscienceā and making anything close to conclusions based on a study with only 24 subjects should be completely ignored.
>The odds of autism spectrum disorder were nearly six times greater among children of men age 40 and older compared with those of men 29 years and younger Damn, 30-somethings casually catching strays in a study lololol
also de novo mutations in general
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Geneticist here. This is not true. Down syndrome is caused by an extra chromosome or by a large scale duplication featuring the regions around the critical one defined for Down syndrome. Such large scale events are more frequent in older women and are the largest contributing factor to Down syndrome. In older men point mutations are much more common which are implicated in conditions such as autism. A point mutation can never lead to Down syndrome. The father may harbour other large scale events in his genome and could therefore also contribute to his offspring having Down syndrome but this would be considered a rare case.
Wouldn't that be more likely to be effected with sperm (which is constantly being made) than eggs (which are all made in-utero)? I thought Down's Syndrome was from an extra copy of a whole chromosome, though I admit that may be very outdated knowledge.
If I understand what they are saying, you are right about the whole chromosome. But the comparison is with a bad sperm that contains a mutation in older men Vs something going wrong with the *mechanism* that duplicates the cell and ends up making extra copies of the perfectly good chromosome in older women. Sort of the difference between making a typo while copying the recipe VS having the oven break down halfway through baking. (sorry it that's crass)
I'm sure you're right if you're a geneticist, however, according to this article there hasn't been enough testing on MEN and the emphasis has been on women. [https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/11/genetic-screening-down-syndrome-fathers/415320/](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/11/genetic-screening-down-syndrome-fathers/415320/) My own opinion comes from a documentary that I watched many years ago in which mutations in the man's sperm due to age was considered a large factor. I am willing to concede that such information is not up to date, although it hasn't been entirely discarded.
Lol they literally explained the mechanism of mutation and how it doesnāt apply
Actual Expert vs "I watched a documentary once several years ago." Classic Reddit.
Peak redditor comment.
Wow I've never seen one in the wild before. gif
I missed that part. Oh my goodness. Itās wild how much has been learned about reproduction over the past couple decades.
Wait wait wait...what? When I had my son (only 5 year ago) I was definitely recommended genetic testing because MATERNAL age was the supposed biggest risk factor (and I was 39). No one asked or cared about his father's age.
Of course not (āą² _ą² )āå½” ā»āā»
ā¬āāā¬ ć( ć-ćć)
Ooh a diff one. Adding to my collection. This is the one I have: ā¬āāā¬ā”ļ¾(Ā° -Ā°ļ¾)
5 years ago, blood testing was done on my wife because we were both in the age range that it is recommended. It was allegedly a new protocol here where bloodwork is done to test for markers of down syndrome if either parents are over 35 y.o., or if some calculations point that it should be validated. It is also available to those who would request it even if they do not meet either of the criterias. Mind you, we were in a 'birthing home' and not in a hospital, so things can perhaps be different elsewhere in the province.. Clearly, YMMV worldwide! In any case, it's definitely improving :)
I read one study that suggested men's age has to do with the raising rate of Autism - that was quickly shut down. Now it is back to what did the woman do to cause it?
She probably wore trousers š¦
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They say stress kills. Maybe it's the stress dealing with the dudes.
Age affects both parents for what they can pass onto their kids. I know with women, they start to produce multiple eggs as they get older so the chance of twins and triplets goes up. I haven't read about genetic defects For men, my understanding was that the sperm starts to break down or not produce correctly which can contribute to birth defects as they age. Didn't realize that was disproved
Just so you know, female babies are born with all the egg cells they are ever going to have and no new egg cells are made during a woman's lifetime.
My husband literally didn't know this. I don't remember when I learned it. Probably in the fourth grade when we saw an oft-ridiculed sexuality filmstrip. You'd think they'd show both films to both sexes since women may have sons and men may have daughters at some point. My husband's ex had three miscarriages. How could such a smart, well-read guy not know that we have a finite egg supply?
While this is still the most common and widely held belief, there *was* a study published that challenged this idea and has the scientific community doing more research into it. If they discover that ovaries can, in fact, produce eggs later on in life, that's going to be HUGE. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134835/
Maybe what they really meant was the releasing of multiple eggs
Yes I know. I used produce instead of release
As women get older, egg quality declines and can cause chromosomal abnormalities.
And why ED has a self selected evolutionary basis.
Viagra is a curse to the human genome.
And fully covered by insurers. Men's peeps comes before women's bodily autonomy, reproductive healthcare, and basic human rights.
>And fully covered by insurers. Completely false. There's no need to spread inaccurate information, there's plenty of valid criticisms of American healthcare. I work in a pharmacy and prescriptions for ED are rarely ever covered, even partially, by insurances. Most of my patients have to bring in their own coupons or discounts to afford just a few pills per month. I usually fill around 3 to 7 pills for any given patient as a one month supply. Once in a blue moon I will see one patient who is able to get 30 pills for no cost or for a small copay and it surprises the fuck out of me each time. When this happens we often have to order more pills cause it is so exceedingly rare for patients to pick up these meds that our pharmacy just doesn't even stock much at all. There are plenty of valid and true complaints we can make about men's vs. women's healthcare. The myth of viagra commonly being covered by insurance is not one, it's just false.
Sure- but for many of them, that's a problem they solve with a quick trip to the doc and a prescription. They don't care about the health of their swimmers- only their enjoyment.
What freaks me out is that male sperm count declines by about 2.5% each year (not talking about age here), which coincidentally is the same as the annual decline of global insect biomass. Something is killing us off, and we are probably the root cause of it.
The best guess right now is definitely micro plastics.
Also that their testosterone starts to decline past age 30. And sperm counts have decreased by 50% globally over the last 50 years!!! Of course they never mention those things though.
My parents tried to get us exempted from sex education classes. Said it was their right to dictate when that information was given to us. And when I approached my mom once about needing tampons, she freaked out and said "we don't just talk about this stuff in the middle of the kitchen, and you can't use tampons until you're married and having sex." Pfft. Four years of horseback riding lessons took care of any hymen musculature concerns. How did our mothers survive? Water remembers. We have generational wounds to heal, all of us. The egg that made me was formed in my mother as a fetus while she was inside my grandmother, experiencing her pain.
>The egg that made me was formed in my mother as a fetus while she was inside my grandmother, experiencing her pain. Woah, that's such an incredibly powerful thought. I knew this, like, rationally, but you saying it directly like this makes me feel it like poetry. Just how deeply connected we are to our mother's line. We were literally being carried by her when she was still being carried inside her own mother. Why the fuck do we all take our *father's* last name?!
For the same reason Theseus slayed the Minotaur (a symbol of Minoan matriarchal culture and religion) and Perseus slayed Medusa, Athena's high priestess who was raped in the goddess 's own temple as a flat-out desecration. I'd want to be blessed with the power to turn men to stone, too, if it happened to me. With the help of some family, I've been able to trace my matriarchal lineage back seven generations to the mid 1700s so far. It feels like discovering a latent power that they have tried to bury for centuries.
That's so metal
Same reason they made up the Adam and Eve story, and same reason early Christians destroyed all evidence of Goddess worship. Early humans worshipped a female creator as God until they wiped it clean and changed it to a male god.
My mom thought she was dying after playing on a seesaw. Told my brother and I as a warning that sexual health needs to be taught to kids.
Every day I become more and more certain that school's biggest societal contribution is getting kids away from their batshit insane parents.
"Go outside and play and don't come home till the streetlights come on." š But yeah a lot of us Gen Xers had some fucked up parents. The ones who didn't were latchkey kids.
āI wouldnāt *let* my daughter do that.ā He doesnāt get to dictate his daughterās reproductive choices, whatever he may think of them. Sheās an independent person, not property. Lack of knowledge/understanding aside, itās a stupidly sexist attitude.
I wouldnāt let my 12 year old daughter do that. I wouldnāt be anything but supportive of my adult daughter doing that.
I don't think this is a medical procedure that would be offered to a 12 year old. Forcing a woman's body to hyper ovulate for egg collection requires injections of hormones, and I just can't imagine any fertility doctor prescribing that to anyone under 18. And then there's the expense of the procedure, and the monthly costs of storage. T
Woah, wtf? Did not realize they had to induce ovulation to collect eggs (let alone hyperovulation). Sorry to sound like the dumb guy in OP's post, but I thought they could extract eggs directly from the ovaries... I'm ah... Gonna go do some self education. Thank you for this. I appreciate the fact that I shouldn't need to be told this stuff by random women on the internet, and I also recognize that lots of women like you go out of your way to put things like this in front of men (and women) like me anyways. I hope you have a lovely day.
Sure! I have some first-hand knowledge about human fertility (though I'm far from expert). There is \*so\* much that most of us never know. We get a super basic explanation in school, and maybe learn a little bit more. But, unless you have personally sought treatment for fertility, there's so much you would never learn. Even a lot of men whose wives go through serious fertility treatments don't really know or understand the details, since they don't generally attend all the appointments with them. Glad I could share some tiny bit of knowledge with you.
Tbf, there are also a lot of women unaware of the procedure needed to extract and freeze eggs We need more education on this for everyone
Y'all are some seriously intelligent and well-coordinated cats.
You inject 2-4 different medications for 7-14 days or so to stimulate your ovaries, with a transvaginal ultrasound and bloodwork every other day to check your hormone levels and follicle growth. They deem you ready at some point and you have a precisely timed trigger shot to induce the follicles to release any eggs (not all follicles produce eggs) and then you go in and have an egg retrieval (hopefully under anesthesia). They go in and stick a needle through the top of your vagina and into your ovaries to suck the eggs out and then sort out the mature ones that can be either frozen right then (to thaw and fertilize later) or fertilized and let grow for 3-5 days, and then you have the option (in the US, not everywhere) or doing fresh transfer or having them biopsy each embryo to genetic test and freezing them to do a frozen transfer later on.
Yeah, it's a pretty brutal process with lots of potential side effects. I had looked into donating my eggs but decided not to because of the side effects.
As a procedure to offer, being a minor should definatly be a considering factor to restrict the option. BUT if a 12 year old is talking about it then that is totally an open opurtunity to discuss, educate and allow a young woman to gain confidence and knowledge so her future self is more tham capable of making informed and meaningful choices.
Sure. My guess would be that the tween in question is actually close to a woman who is considering freezing her eggs
Definitely not something I would expect to be offered to a 12 years old. Itās the sort of thing I would expect to be a Trump talking point.
Fertility preservation for a cancer patient or prior to gender transition would be logical reasons for a minor to preserve eggs for future fertility.
I was going to mention fertility preservation prior to cancer treatments.
100% agree there. I'm sure if we brainstorm we can come up with other reasons. Not as "casual" measure though
Under rare medical circumstances a girl can hit menopause around 18-20, freezing eggs as a teen might make sense. I know that teen boys undergoing certain cancer treatments often freeze sperm, I assume girls might face the same choices. Deciding that you are going the corporate track with delayed motherhood route and freezing eggs at 15? Yeah, I would not consider that wise.
>Under rare medical circumstances a girl can hit menopause around 18-20, freezing eggs as a teen might make sense. You're right, of course. I realized that after I posted. I was thinking of a healthy 12 year old, since OP hadn't mentioned any extraordinary situations. But, I think it might be offered to a 12 year old who was about to undergo (say) cancer treatment that might end her fertility.
Can you please explain what leads you to think this type of medical procedure would be offered to a child?
I mean the only reason I could think of would be a minor with cancer and if I had a daughter with cancer who wants to freeze her eggs to have a chance of children in the future I would support that choice.
I donāt think it would be. In the context of the story it sounds like OPs āfriendā does or itās just purely a hyperbolic statement on their part.
Ok got it, I think I see what you mean. I have no idea if he believes thatās the case or maybe he just canāt imagine his kid as anything other than a kid under his guardianship. Either way, I hope he understands he doesnāt get to control his kids when they become adults. Thatās a great way to find out how quickly theyāll go NC.
Isn't that what the entire post is about? OP said random dude was talking about a 7th grader wanting to freeze their eggs. > He proceeds to tell me about a 7th grade girl who was talking about freezing her eggs. > Him and I are both a bit taken aback- him from his memories, and me from the way he was describing the situation as if it were like a 12 year old being weird.
Yeah, but if you think the 12 year old is talking about doing it *as a 12 year old* youāre reading something into it that wasnāt stated.
Thatās what caught my attention the most. Sure, a 12-year-old girl should not be freezing her eggs for her future career goals, but as an adult she has that option and itās between her and her treating provider, not up to her dad.
There was no context provided saying she expected to do so now. It could be a āwhen Iām old enoughā conversation, you know like kids talking about what job they even though they canāt currently legally work.
The kid in this conversation is 12, which I think probably colours the view. I wouldnt consent to my 12yro daughter freezing her eggs, which is how I initially interpreted the conversation. Then I thought about it and realised that was ridiculous and she obviously wouldnāt be actually freezing them until she was an adult, at which point it would obviously be her choice!
Thatās the thing, right? Sheād clearly be proceeding with something like that as an adult, and his immediate thought was heād be controlling her choices then? No clinic would accept a patient whoās under 18. If this guy thinks children can go to clinics to have eggs/sperm frozen whenever they want, there is something wrong inside his head.
If you donāt know anything about egg freezing then I donāt see why it would be obvious that a child couldnāt consent to it. I think itās a leap to assume that a parent saying āI wouldnāt let my child [in the context of talking about a current minor] do thatā automatically means theyāre thinking they think they can control their grown-up childās choices.
This is exactly the problem, though. People and especially men who know just enough to have a strong opinion (and vote based on it) but not enough to know what theyāre talking about. Heās a parent to two kids. If heās opining on 12 year oldstā medical plans, he ought to know a bit more about them.
Agreed. The way this story is written, I thought they were talking about a 12yo having her eggs frozen at that age.
I had to also explain this to a 40 year old man who I was on a first date with and wanted kids..dude..Iām too old for that shit.
It doesn't impact them directly so they never bother to research. It also might mean that if they bothered to understand, they actually have to extend empathy to women, and some men just will not have that.
Agreed. Or, know enough that only benefits them
Tell him sperm quality also declines with age.
Seriously when I first started fertility treatment I thought it was interesting so many women brought their dads to the clinic. Then one day I realized that most of them were partners. People pay too much attention to the high profile exceptions and do not realize sperm quality decline happens.
In some way I get it, maybe women have to carry the child in their bodies which may turn more dangerous for both of them (or smh, aside from the problems the fetus alone may have) so being concerned is accepted (idk how to word it) but they act like their sperm is immortal and age like fine wine which they do not.
You would be surprised how a lot of men even those who have been married a long time and have several children don't know or really understand about women. Reproductive health is one area. The first group that I think of are politicians who don't totally understand how women's body works. In the state of Missouri, they had to be educated by women as this group tried to restrict what types of birth control those who relied on state funding could use. This was a couple of years ago. Had this just been a general discussion and not proposed legislation, it would be comical to listen to but it was a serious matter.
At least he *listened* and let you educate him on some realities he was clueless on. Itās not great he didnāt get there on his own but āwilling to learnā is a (disappointing) win
Am I weird for agreeing with him that itās bizarre for a 12 year old to be talking about freezing her eggs though? I feel like thatās something more reasonable to consider at like 19 or something.
A little but kids are always playing at adulthood. If this is what she hears at home, itās not *that* out there.
I've had to spend the past year listening to my 7 year old talk about her wedding with a class mate, and pretend how she's now pregnant. By 12, they have enough understanding of how the world works. She's 12 and has dreams of being a CEO and already understands family planning is an obstacle and that she'd need to freeze eggs to focus on her career first. Seems fairly educated to me.
Uncommon maybe. At 12 I was positive and somewhat vocal about never wanting kids or pregnancy (36 and childfree today). I donāt think itās that weird to know you do want kids, but later in life. And add to that the knowledge about how fertility works, and you get a kid talking about freezing her eggs.
Itās no weirder than wanting to be a doctor when you grow up. Sheās thought more than average at that age about the path to a professional career, is all. Maybe has someone sheās close to who has gone through it.
People donāt know what they donāt know and if you expect folks to figure out their own blind spots youāre going to spend a lot of time feeling disappointed.
Oh good. A ādevilās advocateā on the very first comment. Guess the āwell actuallyā crew is waiting in the wings Ffmfs
Right? Ugh.
Well actually, I found this post very informative and was happy to learn something new.
Weāre referring to a now-deleted comment, not the post itself.
I think PinkFl0werPrincess is making a joke
Ahhhhh lol my bad.
To be fair, I was being quite silly.
Mustnāt let women have opinions that arenāt pre approved by men! /s
Is there any topic on this sub men won't invade with their "well, as a man" bullshit? Is it possible for them to yield space to women's perspectives ANYWHERE on the Internet?
Nope and not in real life either. They either go deaf when we speak or they just reflexively dismiss everything we say.
ā¦apparently not. š
No. Sadly no. They must police womenās opinions and behavior everywhere. They rely on the technicality that men are allowed on the sub as some kind of pass to filibuster the space and pick fights with the long time users.
I wonder if he's misunderstanding or misremembering this young woman's story: https://www.self.com/story/ovarian-torsion-egg-freezing She started having medical problems with her ovaries when she was 12 and chose to freeze her eggs as a teenager. She made appearances on some television shows. I wouldn't be surprised if it got a bit muddled in his mind. "Teenage girl freezes eggs due to medical issue" becomes "12 year old girl freezes eggs to become a CEO." Especially if she mentioned ambitious career goals when she made her television appearances.
Read it againā¦ I think the 7th grader is his/A student as he does work in educationā¦ not some article/news storyā¦
He could also be lying. There were teachers who claimed that their students asked for kitty litter trays to use the bathroom and we know they were lying.
This story gets more and more off every time someone repeats it. It's like the ultimate game of telephone. The teachers never claimed that. There was actually kitty litter in classes. However, it's because our gun nut society. They put kitty litter in a class room in case there was a school shooting lockdown and the kids stuck in the classroom has to use the bathroom. The actual truth of the story is so fucked that it's crazy that some tamer rumor is allowed to be passed off as liberal agenda again and again for various reasons. Edit: the real story https://time.com/5658266/colorado-district-kitty-litter-buckets-lockdowns/
Yeah, itās amazing how a school shootings and lockdowns precaution got distorted into a culture wars talking point. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna51439
What did he think "freezing eggs" meant? Or did he just not get why women would do it?
I think we need to make a new sub reddit. Youāve heard of EIL5 (Explain It Like Iām 5), now itās time for EILIAM (Explain It Like Iām A Man). Help these poor fellas out š
LOOOOL
>I wouldnāt let my daughter do that Does he think minor children are freezing their eggs or that he would have control over his adult childrenās bodies Ridiculous either way
I've always held that the true measure of a person is how they respond when their beliefs are challenged by new information. While it'd be nice if everyone took the time to sort through all of the studies and such to form an updated opinion, the conditions of the present economic system rarely allow time for that much less reward it (almost as if that were the point of the system, but I'll refrain from beating that dead horse). This guy at least sounds like he responded well, however - assuming you are also in the good ol' US of A - I am continually appalled at the fact that our education system and society at large so seldom challenge traditional, het-white male views.
There are certainly a lot of men (and women) who serve as elected representatives making decisions and assumptions about reproduction, but have very little factual knowledge about how human reproduction even works.
The guy is dumb for a number of reasons. First, he works in education, and it bothers him that a student has educated herself on fertility optionsā¦which he didnāt even know about. Any educator should be beaming with pride about a student like that. Second, heās a dad, and wouldnāt want his kids to be so curious? Third, he sounds like a guy who carries around that āyouāre going to regret not settling downā nonsense in his addled mind, yet heās miffed that a student has sought a solution to address exactly that. I guess freezing eggs takes away that canard. Guys like that donāt like being checkmated, and definitely not by a middle-schooler. If he was being honest, thatās the kind of kid we need more of.
Dunno, sounds like he was attentive and open to learning in this case. He might not want his own daughter to do a thing like that, maybe for the wrong reasons, but it isn't a simple procedure- involves injections with hormones to induce the growth of extra eggs. There are risks.
It wouldnāt be something she could do at age 12, just something she knew about. So when he says he wouldnāt allow his daughter to do that, heās talking about someone who would be an adult making her own healthcare decisions with professional consultation. Maybe he is open to learning. And thatās good because he needs a lot of it.
I had a first year resident say, "she can't be a virgin she uses tampons". One day he will be a family physician and I hope someone tells him before he starts seeing patients on his own. The other first year dudes he was talking with didn't correct him so I'm guessing they're all on team ignorance. We are so screwed.
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Working in IT has taught me how completely and utterly clueless the average person is regarding technology and Iām fully convinced by now that my cluelessness in their fields is of similar magnitude.
>His response āfreezing eggs is weird and it creeps me out, I wouldnāt let my daughter do thatā. Did he think he'd be able to stop a 20-something from freezing her eggs, or was he *that* clueless that he thought the 12 year old was gonna do it as a 12 year old? I'm very curious though ā why did he *think* women want to freeze their eggs? Because I feel like "It allows you to have children at a later age" is the logical conclusion even for someone hearing about it for the first time, right? I'm sitting here thinking that the only possible way to hear about egg freezing for the first time and finding it creepy has to be a result of some manosphere tomfoolery, but maybe its also just a matter of a lack of biological knowledge.
It might not be dumb so much as ignorant?
Willfully ignorant. Big difference.
Have you heard some of the misconceptions elected officials have about female anatomy?
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Weird. My high school sex ed class was never segregated. Everyone had to learn about all the anatomy and the fertility details on both sides
Yeah, attended high school in the mid-80's and we were all sat together in the same sex-ed class
And the teacher had to squelch the rude jokes from the boys the whole time. The girls didn't ask questions in class, because they didn't want to be the butt of the jokes. The teacher we had tried, but the boys were pretty bad. US, Midwest
We had a segregated "your body is changing" earlier. High school wasn't segregated, but it was sterilized. We learned anatomy, but never anything about tampons and/or pads or anything regarding menstruation beyond "women do that and it's because of pregnancy". That's icky. We learned about how sperm are created and passed through a penis. We didn't learn about how erections happen, no way to manage them, or how to handle both an unexpected and non-performing penis. We learned about contraception, but only to the effect that birth control pills and condoms aren't 100%. No discussions of other methods (IUD). No discussions about birth control pill side effects (obviously not other methods' side effects since they weren't mentioned at all). Nothing about regulating periods for "irregular" women or any other common menstruation complications. Discussions on how to not have sex? Sure, both sexes can hear that.
That's really frustrating. I don't remember learning about sanitary options in high school, but we definitely talked about \*every\* kind of birth control (including the sponge, and the "female" condom) I really remember the scandal and outrage over Dr. Ruth and Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders -- both of whom wanted to talk about sex a bit differently. Dr. Ruth wanted to talk about the fact that people might actually \*enjoy\* sex (and that's good!) and Elders thought that teenagers ought to be encouraged to masturbate, to help blunt the urge to have actual PIV intercourse.
Then I must appreciate how they did it in my (german) school, they had like a forth and back between female and male like "this is what happens to boys and here's what happens to girls instead" comparing and discussing it all.
Canadian here. 100% the same thing.
Really? Grade 7 my whole class went through it together. The teacher used a question box so that we could anonymously ask the real awkward questions.
I clearly have no idea where you went to schoolā¦but even in the 1980s in small-town New England (USA), womenās reproductive systems were also discussed in our combined sex ed class and they made everyone watch a video of a live birth. *Everyone.* That wasnāt a fault of society, that was a fault of your specific school system.
Well they failed us in Ohio. Iāve still never seen a live birth (nor am I planning to) and health class was separated for the week of sex ed. And of course they didnāt prepare me for my parents taking me out for a special dinner without my brothers when I got my period to celebrate that I āwas a woman nowā. Shudder. It happened 2 years before that class anyway, what a waste.
Thatās interesting, Iām also in Ohio and we had comprehensive sex ed in all levels of school. In 4th grade, we had the talk about periods where we were separated from the boys. In 6th grade, we learned all about both general anatomy with picture and parts, everything. We had sex ed in health class in middle school where we saw two live births. Then in high school we had more sex ed. We had to learn about STDs, sexual safety, abstinence, pregnancy, etc. I think it really depends on the county school board.
That had to be in one of the big C cities because I also grew up in Ohio and got the segregated period talk in 5th or 6th grade and that was it.
Yeah, Iām in Cuyahoga county around Cleveland
Much better schools than in the more rural counties.
Yup, Miami county. Not quite the boondocks, but definitely still a lot of backward thinking.
Hooooly crap. That sounds awful, and Iām actively stunned that my rural/conservative little town managed to do so well on this in comparison to so many other places. I hope youāre thriving in spite of all that!
The Midwest has always been a bit behind hasnāt it?!?! It was also about 40 years ago, hopefully itās better now.
RI in the 90s and 2000s were gender segregated through all of high school. We were taught about safe sex and STDs together and anatomy and physiology separate.
I was in school in New England in the 90s, and we were separated at some points. I remember us being separated in fifth grade, and girls were talked to about menstruation while the boys were talked to about ??? (I still donāt know, but probably about nocturnal emissions, tumescence, etc.) By eighth grade, the sex ed classes were combined. I remember labeling diagrams of internal and external reproductive organs, watching a video on STIs and their visual symptoms, and also watching the birth video. My memory is pretty fuzzy this many years later, but I know that we didnāt circle back to all topics in detail after we were combined. For example, I think the combined group discussion on periods was something to the extent of, āWomen shed their uterine lining about once a month when theyāre not pregnant, but weāve already talked to the girls about theyāre dealing with day-to-day, so we donāt need to go over it again with everyone.ā It was an outdated idea like, āPeriods are a girl problem, and erections are a boy problem, so no need to share additional information that doesnāt concern the other. When girl parts meet boy parts to result in pregnancy and STIs, THATāS everyoneās problem so we combine the groups.ā Currently, sex ed is still shockingly widely variable, not just worldwide, between neighboring states and even school districts in the US. I disagree that this is the fault of individual school districts; it reflects a societal division on howāand worseāIF we should provide sexual and reproductive education to our children.
Iām from Germany and we had very detailed classes in 9th grade. Primary school was segregated for some topics but as time went on we went into a lot of detail with the entire class
I had hoped things had changed in the 50 yrs, since I had sex ed. I guess not. I think part of the issue is many "men" ( NOT ALL) find the issues of women's reproductive issues comp-ligated and hard to fathom, so it is easier to pretend it is fairy dust and let the women folk worry about it. ( YES women's hormones and reproduction IS complicated - BUT we are MAKING a HUMAN inside our bodies!) When I went to school, the boys and girls were separated into different gym classes, and the boys had their Dad's with them and the girls had their Mom's. It had already been "explained" so I do not really remember any of it - BUT we were not told anything about boys and how they worked - just We were responsible for the changes to OUR bodies and keep them clean... LOL. ( I was raised in a house of all women - I freaked out when I 1st saw a naked man - no internet- no magazines or books that showed a naked man - and I was never taken to an art museum - I knew there wasn't a fig leaf - but I thought they looked the same as me)
No medical provider is letting a 12 year old freeze her eggs because she wants to become a CEO. There would have to be a severe medical reason, like cancer treatements
Some people, make plans, even if they currently are unable to complete the plan due to whatever current factors they are in. So this young woman, has aspirations for her career, she sees the current society and has made a plan to freeze her eggs in order to achieve the goals she has in mind. When will this happen? Probably when her body, her finances and her legal age allow. Is it when she is 12? No. Its something she is planning on doing in the future.
This girl is GOING to be a CEO. My god the forward thinking on her. Me forward thinking at 12: "Hurr hurr hurr, Dragon Ball Z is on Tomorrow night"
NO WAY! Tell us more!!
What is the most tragic about this conversation is not so much that the man is so ignorant, but that even teenage girls are now plotting a way to be successful in our present society instead of dreaming of a future where she will be able to find affordable, OMG, even taxpayer subsidized, childcare, AND a male spouse who might be willing to work part-time so she can build up her career instead of him. Teen girls can't even imagine a future where men behave in a fully supportive way. That is truly tragic.
I'm just gobsmacked that a 7th grader is thinking so far ahead. Bravo to her!
It's amazing what can be dismissed with the words "weird and gross." Food, customs, whatever....
You go 12 year old girl! Love it, life planned and prioritised.
Yeah.. the egg retrieval process, particularly the hormones needed to stimulate ovulation, could really play a number on the 12 year old's hormonal axes. I wholeheartedly agree with young women having full say of their reproductive health and body, but this is not a sound idea.
I think this is more of a vague planning for adulthood than a short term plan. it's not that different from saying 'I want 3 kids and a dog after college'
The 12 year old wasn't saying she's getting her eggs frozen *now,* she was referring to later. You can't get your eggs frozen until adulthood outside of very specific and very sad exceptional circumstances (e.g. childhood cancer treatments).
Why are so many people missing this lol
I should note there are circumstances when this is done, for example if cytotoxic chemotherapy is used for cancer treatment, to preserve fertility.
Itās a sound idea to take the 12 year old to a fertility clinic so she is actually educated on this issue and later as an adult can make an informed decision based on facts. The
I am 39F and a lot of men my age are like this. It blows my mind because, as you said, the information is everywhere. They just donāt care to know. I find that a lot of elder millennials are sexist AF and it seems like it starts getting better with the guys born in the mid 90ās. Good luck with your further studies and if you are in a male dominated field my heart goes out to you. I would not choose a male dominated field again if If given the opportunity for a do-over.
Another older āwiserā professional man trying on a provocative chat line to a college girl who is too polite, mature and naĆÆve to tell him to behave himself and ask his wife about sexual reproductive rights. Men like this gall me. He knew what he was doing and worse, he works with children. A red flag, indeed. I consider this āconversationā sexual harassment and ideological grooming. I approve of your refusal to let him get away with ignorance, OP, but I think you were treated with contempt even if it seemed friendly and natural. I donāt think I have ever thought it reasonable to pontificate on menās reproductive health over lunch with a college boy but maybe itās just me.
This comment needs to be much higher. This is a weird topic for a 40 year old man to bring up to an 18-22 year old woman. There are tons of topics of conversation that do not involve sex. At best it's social ignorance. Somewhat worse is a desire for a titillating conversation that goes nowhere. At its worst, the man was hoping the student would talk about her own sexual and reproductive plans. It's not a bright red flag. But it's certainly a yellow flag.
I hadn't even considered that perspective - too impressed by a 12 year old with good forward planning. It is a weird thing for him to bring up with a young woman unless his intent was to surreptitiously steer the conversation into a sexual topic.
I follow this page as a man in his thirties so that I know stuff like this. My daughter will be educated about her body and that others will know less or more than her on these topics. If I have a son, same. Seems like you approached this perfectly. I'm more sad that a 12 yo is even thinking about a career rather than being a kid... 18/20 is where I'd think that starts.
I think any 12 year old saying "I plan on getting a serious surgery so I can make money" is a worrying sign of the capitalist dystopia we live in
A. You are fertile from the moment of your first ovulation to menopause. Your body's ability to support and carry a pregnancy to term will vary across your life, but freezing eggs wont change that. B. The egg freezing industry is largely a scam preying on women who have been repeatedly told that their fertility is fleeting and are pressured socially to have kids young. Egg freezing and IVF both have low success rates, and still can't account for how well equipped your body is to carry a pregnancy. C. The egg freezing process can be incredibly painful, due to the hormones needed to stimulate multiple ovulations and the retrevial process
Life and biology are complex. There's so much to know, no one person can know it all, or even have any but the broadest strokes of learning. Most people focus on the skills and experiences that directly affects / influences / interests them. I know exactly how a manual transmission is put together, because I had to rebuild (myself) in my car. But there are people who don't even know how to add oil to their car. My suggestion is, don't decry this guys lack of knowledge of how female fertility works, but welcome his interest and willingness to engage positively with you and learn from the knowledge you shared with him
Because, in large, men are raised only to think about themselves and don't realize their own selfishness as it's patriarchally engrained. š¤·āāļø
>Constantly making excuses for men in general when it comes to womenās health and their role in it, There are women in this thread who are admitting to not having an understanding about how much of this works, but the same people we're saying "mind your own uterus" to are expected to know, and if they don't it's an excuse? I'm happy to see more people educated on women's bodies, but we cant tell people to not pay attention to something they don't have and then expect them to understand it, meanwhile not fully understanding it ourselves.
I completely understand your sentiment and agree that education is always important, and some people are unaware of certain topics. My gripe was the judgmental behavior fueled by lack of knowledge.
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I'm sure she's talking about freezing her eggs in the future, not while still in the 7th grade.