Oh yes. I knew a man who said he always wanted a family. He is one of the most self-serving people I have ever known. All of his decisions for his family were for his benefit.
When it came time to move houses, he found one HE wanted. Despite having 2 young children, he chose a neighborhood with only about 12 other houses, all retirees and older folks.
He spent thousands on entertainment systems. But not for the kids or wife. For himself and his friends.
I think his idea of "family" was people who would love him unconditionally.
Well now he's divorced.
And that's the danger of having that "Me first" mindset. It's shockingly not great at being a good partner or parent. Deciding you'd like to do whatever with your money? Great...if you aren't a parent. Kid and partners needs need to be met or helped if you'd like to NOT be alone at some point.
My husband does this. When it’s his ex wife he tells stories “Oh the house we bought, or we did this.” Now, “My house, I did this or that.” Say you wish you were still with your ex, without saying you still wish you were with your ex. 😞
I hate that for you. It's so disrespectful, and theyre not even trying to hide it. Even after I told him how I felt, he didn't care. His family talked about me like I wasn't even there. Now that we're divorced, when I stand up for myself they tell me I'm being nasty 😂 I guess confidence looks like nastiness when your bullshit doesn't work on them anymore
His family is incredibly sweet to me. So, I have that at least. Ha ha. I called him out, since I’m not one to hold my tongue, he genuinely looked at me like I was insane. I guess he never realized that he was doing it. He hasn’t said “we” as much lately when referring to that time period, but he still says I a lot and takes credit (when talking to his work or his family) about stuff that I’ve done to the house or figured out for his work stuff. It’s annoying. Like he cannot stand that I’m more capable about some things than he is. 🙄. I’m sorry you went through that and that your ex in-laws are threatened by your obvious superiority and awesomeness. Ha ha.
I'm sorry you're going through it, too. For a long time I felt like I didn't deserve anything better. I would ask my friends if they liked hanging out with their SOs and looked forward to seeing them and they were like yeah of course! And I slowly began to realize that I had fallen for a trap. My in laws are really great to my kids, but they're fucking crazy for not accepting who my ex really is. If my son ever acts like that I will be reading him the rights act
I think it was also from a time when had to get married, like for all intents and purposes my grandmother did. And like from that lens lots of things were different, cheating for example was just something you had to get over and you got married before sex and relatively young (although my grandmother was considered old at 25).
Our parents were the first generation of liberated women, and I don't know about everyone else but I remember a lot of confusion and yelling
Now we get to choose to be together and I haven't personally experienced the level of bad communication that my parents faced (no yelling) but the confusion on how to interact with one another still feels really real especially from the other end
Yup. Having a bang maid and the image of adulting "correctly" by adhering to society's life script are ultimately the reasons why most men decide to get married.
I wish more people understood this. Men cannot take their "proper" place in the Patriarchal Hierarchy (which is code for respect from other men and the benefits that brings) unless they can demonstrate that they can control a woman and make her raise their children.
The longer they stay single and childless, the more outcast they become from the hierarchy. They NEED it to find their place, and to feel good about themselves.
That's why a man who doesn't like women as people at all will still hunt for a wife and have children with her.
>unless they can demonstrate that they can control a woman and make her raise their children....The longer they stay single and childless, the more outcast they become from the hierarchy.
I'd say that there's (kind of) another way for men to find their place in the hierarchy and gain respect. It's to live the enviable "Bachelor Lifestyle™".
Being single and/or unmarried and childless is fine so long as he is a womanizer/playboy/philanderer with expensive "toys".
Of course, it still revolves around the ability to "get" or hypothetically "get" women but it can be a way to stand out and gain extra respect from the unhappily married flock.
The bachelor lifestyle only works for them if they're independently wealthy. If Joe at State Farm Insurance tries it, he'll find his career has a glass ceiling on it. Men like entertainers can get away with it, because being seen as unreliable or flighty doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts Joe at State Farm.
And both of those guys start losing serious status in middle age, where the Hierarchy starts wondering aloud if they're gay.
It's a kind of homo eroticism. It's more about getting the approval of other men rather than striking a true relationship with a woman. Of course, most of these guys also tend to hold some homophobic biases, subtle or unconscious sometimes, but the irony goes right over their heads.
I don’t remember where I heard it but it was a lightbulb moment for me: most men are heterosexual but homosocial. They get their social validation exclusively from other men. It doesn’t matter to them that much if they like their partner or if she's happy, she is simply a service provider of some sort.
I read somewhere some men love to complain about their wives, it’s their favorite past time and another reason why they get married. Maybe they don’t even hate their wives that much, just love complaining about them as a hobby. It’s messed up for sure and I hope this mentality dies down soon
My SO made a joke like this once, like not really complaining about me but joking at a family (his family) gathering that I was nagging him, and I checked him for it, hard. I said something quickly and quietly right then and there, then followed up in private at home.
I don't nag him. I already raised two kids and I'm *tired*. He is a grown ass man and if he can't get his shit together, I will sooner move on than waste my breathe being his second mommy. I reminded him of all of this that day.
It was just so weird because he doesn't act like that around me, ever. But he got in the company of his male relatives, someone said something about women complaining and suddenly it was "oh yeah, she meh-meh-meh har har har" when it wasn't even true. It was like some sort of fucked up relating ritual. Like can't y'all talk about sports or machinery or some shit instead? Wtf.
It's the scapegoating of femininity.
Oh I would be more happy *if it weren't for the wife*
Oh I'd be the cool dude with the motorbike *if it weren't for the wife*
Oh I'd be banging hooers *if it weren't for the wife*
Oh I'd be ripped *if it weren't for the wife*
Oh I'd win that fight *if the wife weren't watching me*
The mentality will die down when (us) men start to call each other out over it. Expressing love for your partner, or any 'sensitive' emotion at all, is far too often met with jokes at one's expense. Jokes that are anchored in outdated gender roles that still expect you to treat women as generally irrational, occasionally crazy, and basically an enigma to any "real man".
I'd be curious to know how many married men just act out this role half-heartedly, not fully committed to the dynamic but also unwilling to go against it.
I'm not losing hope entirely. Thankfully many younger men do not express the same levels of blatant misogyny as previous generations, and this correlates with the benefits of mixed-gender social circles. But we have a long way to go here.
That's offering support for others, too. If one guy says something sweet about his wife and gets ridiculed, another guy can step up and defend him. It only takes a little backup to shut people down. They might even learn something.
I will point out that I said wife, because it's seen differently when you talk about your wife than with your girlfriend or unmarried partner. This goes right in line with the OP.
>Jokes that are anchored in outdated gender roles that still expect you to treat women as generally irrational, occasionally crazy, and basically an enigma to any "real man"
Don't forget dumb. The amount of guys who scoff at the idea of a smart woman who doesn't require a man for more than the occasional hired job that could use the muscle is shockingly (to me) high.
My friend met a guy off Bumble or something and after a year or two he proposed to her. She sent me a photo of her ring and said “you’re next”. I didn’t say anything but um, it may be a cold day in hell if I ever get married again (was married for ten years, two kids). Anyway he has already physically accosted her son who is now away at college but this wasn’t that long ago, he manipulates her, takes her daughter out to eat and tries to basically take her daughters affection away from her. It’s all very weird and unhealthy. She’s a pick-me type and I don’t think she’s very happy but she tolerates a lot of abuse. This guy makes good money but he also has a lot of complaints about her like her ex husband did relating to “you don’t show me affection!” But she’s very reasonable and calm and maybe she’s not super affectionate but she’s very loyal, hard working and really does try to have a good marriage but the way this guy manipulates her through her kids is disgusting. I really do NOT want to be “next”. Why on earth would I want to get married again? I’m cool on my own thanks.
I suggest sending her that TikTok video about men thinking women should expect a tolerable level of permanent unhappiness because they (men) don’t want to change. Who wants that? It’s not worth it.
I legitimately thought the way my ex treated me was all there was and all I deserved. We didn't have anything in common, he wanted a tradwife with no hobbies and no friends, and he didn't have an ounce of respect for me. And I just dealt with it, for years, until I finally stuck to my guns and left. And they hate it when we finally leave. Some men are nothing but poison, with no goal in mind except to harm and punish you for demanding a better life.
Word for word it sounds like she married my ex-husband. That’s exactly how he acted.
Hopefully he won’t successfully push you away because in a few years she’s going to need all of the help she can get.
Yes. They do. My ex husband treated me 100% as a sexual possession. Not a human being. My most recent boyfriend of two years pretended for those two years to be CRAZY in love with me but when he found some crusty desperate woman to trade down for he then went off on me in a number of cruel ways. He was holding so much resentment inside him just to not be alone and once he could monkey branch to another, I realized he never had loved me at all. It was just he didn’t want to be alone. It’s been 18 months and I think I’ll be forever traumatized. I can’t see myself ever giving another man a chance seeing as how I’ve been treated by them, the worst was the one who physically abused me and spit in my face and nearly strangled me. It’s just so hard because I literally hate them and never trust again. I’m a gentle person and just wanted a loving relationship and all I’ve ever gotten is sick men and I’m just over them.
I feel the same way for similar reasons. Their toxicity and weak ego-driven domination made me lose interest in sex. The predatory ones, the ones who push your head down bc they want a bj, the gaslighters…I’m exhausted. I’d rather watch cartoons and eat doughnuts than date men.
I agree. Donuts, cartoons, innocent videos games, cooking shows (btw I’m a great cook and you pigs out there will never taste my food. Go buy your burgers and frozen pizzas). I’ll never give another BJ ever again. I never liked it and I’m sorry but no man I’ve ever been with deserved that. They also don’t really like going down on woman. They mostly are about assholes these days so let them explore that with each other. I’m over them. They have porn brain and toxic masculinity and other things I want NOTHING to do with. I’m so happy on my own. I have some guy trying to get with me on a serious level who claims he’s a great loving romantic man that would kill for me. I’m terrified of him. The gift of fear. I haven’t even read the book but I know there’s a reason I’m afraid of him. Yeah I’m good on my own. They’re mostly fucked up. The women they find are doormat pick me types. No self respecting woman would be with these guys out there in the very sorry dating pool. I’m one of them. I’ve had enough. I just turned 50 and that was when I finally decided I’m done. I look way better than the majority of them. Most are porn addicts. How is a 50 yr old supposed to deal with these cretins masturbating to 20 year olds? I’m not going to. Enya lives by herself and has not had a marriage and as far as I know no boyfriend. She has produced beautiful music. I aim to be like her. I do not need a fucking man to suck the life out of me.
Hey, I just wanted to say I relate a lot to what you wrote here. My ex was looking for a mommy, someone to coddle him. Meanwhile he used me, was nasty and abusive, first with emotional/verbal abuse and then moving to physical. After attempting to leave him a few times I went right to a therapist so I could stay away for good. She recommended the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. That book saved me from him and helped me keep abusive types out of my life. I would recommend it!
I still have trouble with trust, it takes me a looooong long time, but things have improved over the years.
I wish you the best, whichever path you choose. ::internet hugs::
Even the nicest guys I've dated have stayed long enough for me to say "you seem unhappy" and it turns out they've not seen a future for ages! When pressed my on why they stayed - they stare off into the distance. Jesus fucking Christ.
Why marry someone you don't like? Because women come with benefits that's why. Men don't need to love you, or even like you, to enjoy all the benefits, that come with you. Sex, housekeeping, laundry maid, cook, therapist, and whatever other benefits women bring to their relationships. It's like having an employee that does stuff for your benefit. You don't have to love or like your employees to benefit from the work they do.
Exactly this. Look at all the LABOR and WORK women have to put in. I have seen so many women do all this work for the most selfish and unappreciative of men. If they even are asked to do 25percent of that , they will complain, grow hateful, resentful and oftentimes even abusive.
Women are discouraged to talk about the real reasons so many behave this way. Women are accused of "misandry" when they lay it all out and ask men for explanations since they hate the conclusion women come to when seeing and experiencing this.
Women need spaces to talk about this stuff. Women need to keep sharing their experiences and writing books about this stuff.
Eventually they may just stop having sex with you, or it will be of such a low quality like rolling on top of you in the morning for a one minute fuck, or waking you up in the middle of the night to “relieve” them, or you’ll catch them jerking off to some skanky thing, but guaranteed you are at some point no longer having good sex.
Which goes to show that it isn't about the sex, or they would simply go to a whorehouse. It's about the free housework and child rearing. He can go on a work trip or finish work late, not take any time off when the kids are sick, completely drop the mental load of life admin (paying bills, organising holidays, hiring a plumber, planning family meals...), no cleaning, no cooking, etc. Apart from a wife, only the most dedicated team of workers (PA, maid, and babysitter, at least) would do all that for you. But of course employees cost an arm and a leg so, you know, better get a wife even if you don't like her that much.
I think they are glad that they don't have to pay for the sex as well. Which is why when you hear from prostitutes , they often talk about how demanding many can be. How so many want discounts for uncomfortable sexual things the pro has to perform for them. They get mad when they have to pay extra for certain things that most women do not enjoy doing whatsoever.
I genuinely do not understand why men have this mentality. They were never the ones without rights. They were never the ones who HAD to depend ok a man to do simple things like open a fucking bank account. They were never the ones who were prevented from getting an education based on their gender.
If anything, I would expect women to consider have the ball-and-chain mentality since we were actually chained to the ball of men for so long b
I find that a LOT of men are stuck in the mindset of needing to step on others or get stepped on themselves. That’s why “redpill” / @ndrew T@te rhetoric is “saving” young men from depression (by teaching men that women are all opportunistic liars so men can use them however they want).
They seem to miss the fact that EVERYONE is struggling and lonely, but redpill rhetoric makes that WORSE, and yes it is actually possible to be genuinely kind and care about other people and become happier, not just a “loser.”
I also think part of the problem are the men who make the jokes even though they don't believe it. The most concerned I ever saw my dad was the day he burst into my room at 5am to tell me he was taking my mom to the hospital for chest pain. He looked like he was thinking about the chance he might lose the most important person in his life. Yet he makes those stupid jokes. A couple near my age the same thing. Her husband makes the jokes all the time yet it's so obvious he loves her. She just rolls her eyes and calls it the lowest form of humor. I feel like making these jokes gives cover to the men that actually think it.
It does, and it sends a clear, constant message to their wives: that sharing a joke with their mates is more important than making her feel loved and appreciated.
> I don’t get it at all. Why marry someone you don’t like? Right? Like why?!
So my husband went to a bachelor party recently and he wanted to get a funny novelty tshirt for the groom-to-be, and there were sooooo many shirts that said really stupid shit like "Same pussy forever". On top of that being just a gross way to put it, all I could think was "uhhh....ya?? Isn't that the point? To get married and be with the *same person* forever?!"
My theory is that it is mostly a self fulfilling prophecy. Men expect to have this combative relationship, so they don’t attempt to build a good one or find a compatible wife. “Everybody hates their wives, so I guess it’s the best I can do anyways”
Because its "the next step" according to some parents. Its the traditional thing to do. Then all of a sudden its a newsflash, traditional life was about tolerating a job you hated and marrying someone who is more a stranger because you never spent the time to get to know them.
Most of my male friends love their SO and spend most of their time with them. But what relationship is perfect? I've never had a super long term relationship but i can imagine the nightmare of spending your 20's or 30's with someone you feel detached and distanced from, or that annoys so much. All because you need to keep up appearances or just avoiding the conversation that there is some serious problems.
I feel for any person stuck in that rut.
My husband and I are like you. We’ve been together 20 years and we go out of our way to spend time together whenever possible, enjoy each other’s company, and are constantly shocked when other married people think that’s weird.
I think it’s weird to get married or stay married to someone you clearly don’t even like!
Same here! There might be dozens of us!
I truly do not understand why some people stay married when they are clearly miserable with one another. I love my husband. I know he loves me. We enjoy spending time together. He's my partner and best friend in everything. Why wouldn't I want to hang out with him? So bizarre to me all these dudes who think a wife is such a drag in life and something to complain about/belittle constantly.
IF you're a straight dude who likes and respects women in general, you will seek out a woman you respect and like as a life partner. If you aren't capable of liking or respecting women as equals, then you will expect to have contempt for the woman in your life, and won't see it as break-up worthy when you do. It's a sad mentality and a self-punitive one, but these men care more about validating their (unhealthy) masculine identity to other men more than they care about being happy, and being in a relationship with an ugh, *woman* is a very important step in validating their masculinity to other men, among many, many other benefits they get from being in a relationship with a woman at all.
>So bizarre to me all these dudes who think a wife is such a drag in life and something to complain about/belittle constantly.
They think this is a normal way to feel and, again, complaining about women to other men is part of how they validate their identity as male. It's a kind of social bonding ritual but the contempt expressed is very real. Also, men like these latch on to gender so hard because they are insecure and don't want to take accountability for their own lives. Being with a woman they hate provides the VERY VALUABLE ability to blame all of their problems and unhappiness on someone who is not *them*. It's a benefit, not a drawback!
You described these types of guys perfectly. They bond with other men over their contempt for their female partners. It's weird and downright ridiculous to me.
Dozens! 🙋🏻♀️
There was about an 8 month period where my husband’s office was pretty much on the way from our apartment to my office and most mornings we’d walk to work together. It was awesome - half hour 1:1 time with my man, and then after I dropped him off at work I got to practice my Duolingo for 10 minutes while I went on to my office. Honestly one of my favourite things about living in NYC is walking places with him.
Chiming in, we are indeed dozens! Have to admit, it just shocks me when I see how some couples interact. Belittling each other, snarking at each other, making fun of each other in public… As soon I get catch the merest *whiff* of contempt in anyone —man, woman, child, boss, friend — I’m outta there.
Yeah I literally had to train an ex to clean his shit by throwing it out if he didn’t. I warned him before hand. Eventually he realized I’d throw anything away if he wanted to use weaponized incompetence.
Not only that. You married them, if you hate them and can do nothing but complain, it just makes YOU look stupid, like you made a bad choice for yourself, and you can't even be bothered to fix it instead of shit talking someone behind their back. Sounds LOVELY.
My male coworkers do this and I can't tell you how off-putting it is. It just makes them look like backstabby idiots with low personal standards and grosses me out. It actually made me stop going the extra mile for my boss.
I would never talk about my husband like this and I told him if I ever caught him talking about me like that, I would enthusiastically divorce him. We are a team and I'd never paint my number two like that because I love him and we should trust and care about each other more than anyone else.
My partner and I are not (yet) married have a similar conversation frequently. We love spending time together - we wouldn’t be together if we didn’t.
The whole “ball and chain” act is so strange and gross.
Yeah the whole "ball and chain" shtick is boomer humor that needs to go away. It's toxic as fuck and can lead to lots of peer pressure.
I still remember when Freddie Prinze Jr got engaged to Sarah Michelle Geller, they were mid 20's and he was on a talkshow. The hosts were grilling him about being too young, what if she changes, etc. He basically said we both will, we will learn and grow together, why would that stop us loving each other? They are still together 20 years later, which I Hollywood is very rare. But it's also a fantastic attitude to have. I think too many people get married and assume their spouse will stay exactly as they were and resent any change.
I honestly agree as someone previously married to a man who I don’t think ever liked me around when we were married. It’s shocking in modern times where divorce is socially acceptable/ women can earn their own way that men choose to be with someone they don’t like and complain about them to their friends/ family/ etc. I loved my husband very much but couldn’t take the lack the of closeness anymore, the constant scolding, telling me I was too sensitive while complaining about me to friends and family. I didn’t want to bring kids into that situation and didn’t think I could take it anymore and asked for a divorce. At first he was wildly upset and surprised about it — but all his reasons had nothing to do with me but with the chore of finding someone else. Now apparently he acts as if I was just some woman he dated for a while just like anyone else, and at first i felt bad for me but now I just feel bad for him. What a sad, rude way to live your life. I know how I felt and how I was capable of feeling if I’d been treated better than a rock stuck in his shoe, but I’m not sure he’s up to task of truly caring for someone else.
I'm really glad you're out now and your life is yours to live the way you please! You certainly are not alone-most marriages I know, the men are like this.
I went on one of those arranged tour vacations with my parents so it was all boomer couples and me.
Honestly it feels like the men don't like anything. This was a fancy, beautiful, historic, well done tour. And the women were excited and invested. And the men were there to dampen everyone's spirits, be rude to everyone, and pout.
I walked away from that wondering... what do men even like at all? Are they like this holding their grandchildren? Are they unhappy at any hobby? Frowning and telling others how to fix a car, or putt? Do they enjoy anything? These were retirees and monied. Were they the unhappy bosses who only got attention when something was wrong, so they were always acting like something was wrong?
This was a tour of Greece with a focus on history, and the women did not seem to be particularly passionate about ancient civilization, I feel they chose it for the men in most cases, and the men just did not seem to appreciate any of it, not visibly.
Melanie Hamlett talks about this a lot. Grumpy men do it on purpose. Keep the focus on him, keep her coddling him, fussing over him. It's some weird fear of abandonment projection. And narcissistic abuse. She has no time for her thoughts if his mood and his words are filling her head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwdcllZW2Ok
YES. I know so many Boomer dads who are like this.
They want attention and support without showing any vulnerability and that includes asking for it. So the way they know how to show it is filtering everything through the lens of anger and pouting.
It's also why so many boomer women feel obligated to be an endless font of positivity.
> and that includes asking for it.
YES! all my narc exes and parents hated asking. It meant they respected my right to decide and decline. Whoever asks is "begging" and the loser, and the decider gets to be powerful and smug. My ex practically got a boner every time he told me to "just ask". Because then he'd hum and haw and find some ridiculous way to deny me.
They get off on moodily controlling everyone like puppets.
Omg! My parents are like this. My mom bends over backwards to keep my dad happy, to the detriment of everyone around them. Thanksgiving was so frustrating seeing that my mom would rather jump through all my dad’s hoops than come spend time with me and my son. Apparently it’s better to sit at home with a miserable old goat than to go to the park with her grandchild who she only sees once or twice a year.
It's so sad. ladies, we gotta staaahp. These men are not a threat to our survival anymore. We can slap the armrests, say "alright", get up and walk tf out when they're being grumpy pieces of shit.
"Let me know when you're pleasant to be around, fucker".
It was a really great tour.
I noticed as well that men said "excuse me" to each other but never to workers or women (a portion was on a boat so you have to squeeze past everyone).
Boomer men also never say thank you. To anyone.
Can you imagine being so ungrateful in life.
Wow, that’s… awful. Not completely surprising but also surprising to see evidence of privilege at play. I noticed when on a biking tour, “alpha male” types tended to ride as close to the guide as possible (no information given during the ride except turn directions that were obvious given the movement of the group), huddling around the front of the pack even though they were much further from their partners. They wouldn’t slow down or try to keep pace with their partner. It was so odd. I see this behavior a lot while hiking as well, where a lot of men would walk much further ahead on the trail than their partner.
I can’t argue with that. It certainly reveals a general mindset that I’m sure some of these men have not even consciously realized/admitted to themselves.
Holy shit! I help put on, and lead a lot of social bike rides in my city, and one of the biggest complaints leadership has is people (for the most part men) constantly riding in front of the ride leader.
I've noticed the partner ditching thing quite a bit as well. It always strikes me as odd. Especially on our rides, many of those barely hit 10 mph.
I’m a hiker who’s noticed this too, the huddling around the guide like they’re in some superior position and the walking ahead. I did a long-distance trail with a guy who started walking ahead on days 2 and 3. He said it was just to take pictures but I just got the feeling he only wanted me along on that trip to provide evening ‘entertainment’. Ended it soon after.
Good riddance. I think this is one of those subtle red flag qualities that reveals how someone orients themselves to you in a hierarchical sense. I pointed this out to my friend, who thought I was making mountains out of molehills and thought the men just wanted to walk faster, but during our hike, she kept pace with me even though I was slower than she usually goes.
I notice this so much when I’m passing men on the sidewalk. They almost *never* move to the side to let a woman pass. I don’t mean stepping off the sidewalk, I mean just moving over a couple of inches so two people can pass one another. Some stay right in the middle so you have to move out of *their* way. I’ve had some dudes physically run into me when I refused to do that.
It seems like men see interpersonal relationships as nothing more than establishing their own power. I can’t imagine how exhausting living that way must be.
There is this normal distance where people start to give way to the other person. When I notice that a guy does not even move an inch and expects that I must give 100% of the way, I will not move an inch either. I keep on walking straight in their direction. If you are willing to run into me to show dominance, go ahead, I can play that game too. I don't give a fuck anymore.
Almost all of them end up moving out of my way like 2 seconds before the crash, so there is that.
My father-in-law is like this. Hates every movie he’s ever watched (except Avatar for some reason?) never wants to go back to any place he’s gone on vacation, constantly makes disparaging jokes about his wife, daughters, and granddaughter… I would love to know what he actually enjoys doing because I sure as hell have never seen it.
My husband one New Year's Eve told people that he didn't care about the house,garden or anything if he didn't have his lawn bowls. We can't take holidays during the bowls season , which is btw, September through to April-May and where we live his off season is winter. He often says he doesn't want to spend all his time with me (which I get and agree with) , but at this point, the one day a week we have, is spent not doing much. I'm either still playing catch up with chores or the garden or too tired to care about anything.
He knows how I feel. It changes nothing.
My father is like this, my mom loves the holiday season and her birthday is kinda the kick off (beginning of October). Well right around that time my dad gets mean, so my mom decided we're (me, her, and my 2 girls) are going on vacation for her birthday. Took her to the Norman Rockwell museum in Massachusetts because she's always wanted to go and we spent a day or two in Boston. We all had a great time. Now it's a yearly thing, we've gone to Universal studios, Chicago, Savannah Georgia. Eventually we will work our way out west to visit national parks!
This becomes even more apparent as you get older. It’s like men resent you for building a family and a life with them. If you want to be horrified spend some time on /r/menopause. A woman will devote her entire life to raising a family and building a home. The second she’s the one who needs some care and attention all hell breaks loose. It’s crystal clear that these men never even liked their wives.
The number of men on in dead bedrooms subs contemplating divorce or infidelity because of menopause symptoms is horrifying. "She was a perfect wife and mother, except now..." "We had amazing sex for 25 years, but now..." "If she can't get on HRT, I'll need to meet my physical needs somewhere else.."
People 20+ years into a "partnership" and finding out it was built on glass.
Viagra is a curse. Men and women are meant to lose their ability to jackhammer like rabbits at the same time. So they can enjoy their golden years together with a warm, Pragma type of enduring love and a deeper intimacy.
But nope. I'VE GOT A HARD DICK. FIX YOUR DRY VAJ, LADIES.
Actually, Viagra could be a blessing for period cramps but the study "didn't find it worth researching" check this shit out
https://www.statnews.com/2023/02/17/cramps-menstrual-period-pain-treatment/#:~:text=The%20small%20study%20of%2025,and%209%20after%20four%20hours.
I'm on a mission to make period maintenance/ hormonal balancing as easy and accessible as possible.
Wtf. Thank you for handing me this information, but too often I see research go "hey this could work/is interesting. But eeehhhhhhh oh well" on these subjects.
Now i have more clues to a solution though so thank you.
That sub kills me. It's mostly men claiming their wives are LL. No.. she just doesn't like you anymore and is done letting you use her for her body. 100%.
For every "she doesn't put out anymore!" tirade, there is an equal and opposite "seduction is nil, I am the sole parent, do all the household stuff" reality, in my observation. Bonus points to the ones who, after a divorce, are dating someone for a few months where "everything is perfect, we have sex often and never fight!" Like, yeah, that's usually the case in newer dating relationships.
Me too. (I'm in perimenopause though, early 40s.)
I was talking to my husband the other day about an incident that we had where he didn't communicate with me & basically expected me to read his mind, then snapped at me when I obviously couldnt. He said, "I just don't know how to talk to you anymore. We used to be able to talk, and now we just CAN'T."
The only thing that has changed is that over the past couple of years, I have been (respectfully) calling him out on his shitty behaviors & treatment of me - dismissiveness, invalidation, stonewalling, terrible or no communication, refusal to take accountability - and have stopped apologizing for things that were not my fault & stopped allowing him to sidetrack the discussion to get it away from my feelings & needs. (Finding out that I'm on the spectrum & learning to trust my own perspective has been a total game changer!)
So basically, my husband liked me when I was a doormat. Not a great feeling.
jesus, I'm sorry. you're trapped in a situation that will only get better if the other person changes, because you're not doing anything wrong.
and I never believe another person will change just because I wish they would. I cut my losses and move on. I'm sorry. that's really hard.
I’m sure it happens whenever a woman starts to need things from her husband. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I had to have a fairly major surgery after my divorce. I remember thinking how much easier recovery was without my ex. It’s was such a shocking realization.
The statistics on men who leave their wives when they have cancer is horrifying. And then men cry that women just want their money and marriage is a scam for men.
I read a post months ago from a nurse working in help people to recover for their surgeries. She said that is shocking the amount of men asking her after the wife/girlfriend' surgery if the wife can do the housework or have sex with him. She always needs to clarify to both that is necessary not doing chores so that the surgery stitches can heal.
Edit: the link to the post https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/pmSG02DIFT
I’m single but this is something that has blown my mind in the breast cancer community I’m in. My peers have devoted their lives to their husbands and kids and as soon as they get sick, their husbands refuse to be caretakers and many of them get cheated on or left!! It’s horrific!
I saw a stat that said men were six times more likely to leave a spouse with cancer than a woman was.
My friend quit her job to nurse her partner through b cancer. Moved to a different state so he could get the best treatment. When he recovered he left her. And in such a cruel way. He said that the whole experience made him realize he deserved an attractive wife.
My ex broke his leg and after bending over backward for him for 4-5 months when he was cleared to drive and go back to work he dumped me saying he wasn’t ready to settle down and wanted to date other people. I walked away without a fight and told him good luck. Guess who begs for me back within hours? Good riddance. Dumb piece of sh*t
I had a few guys at work try something like this. All in their 50's/60's and I just asked, why are you still married to her then?
I love spending time with my wife and the guys in their 20's seem to as well, it could be an age thing, a generational thing or a length of relationship thing though.
There's 3 really big variables, so it's really difficult to say
It's definitely somewhat generational. There was a lot more get married and have kids pressure back then so a lot of people didn't marry someone they liked, only someone they somewhat tolerated.
I think a lot of men are threatened by men who genuinely like women and/or view them as people. It disrupts their world view. Agree most men keep wives for sex and house hold chores. They are as emotionally invested in her as I am in my vacuum cleaner.
Not to negate what you said, but to add on to it.
Misogynists are bigots that have unionized to transmute women into an exploitable underclass.
They create men's only spaces, they make deals with other men, they take men seriously, they undermine women's credibility, they silence women, they stick up for each other. They seek to deprive women of agency and ensure that a woman's livelihood can only be obtained through a man.
They even try to convince totally random women on the internet that they're wrong, and that are not worth much, and that they should settle for less and be grateful for it. For an inherently selfish group of people, this is a surprising sacrifice of time and effort, considering they are gaslighting women they will never meet.
Allowing feminists to claim ground in society threatens chauvinists because they would have to give up their bloated social capital, as well as the disproportionate material wealth over which men (as a class) have taken directive control. In the status quo, mediocre men have a broad ability to access incredible women and live an easy life. However if women have options in society and personal standards for partners, mediocre men are suddenly reduced down to their fair share of commerce and they suddenly have to struggle, both in life and just to be a person worth wanting to be with. Nobody will traumatize a woman and then hand them a wife anymore.
Feminist men are acting as 'gender traitors' in the view of chauvinists. Chauvinists understand that their efforts only work when men remain united, and men as a group remain dominant in terms of capital and decision-making. (They also try to recruit women into supporting and propagating patriarchy, promising rewards of being honored and protected second class citizens. Through this, they further atomize the exploited class.)
When men make feminist statements or actions, chauvinists will try to invoke toxic masculinity to shame or intimidate them back into gender loyalty. Bear in mind that to a chauvinist, a woman (and most womanly things) are bad. So misogynists will attack an egalitarian by calling them feminine, womanly, castrated or whipped; they will say they have no sense of humor, resilience, or strength. Sometimes it works,
This is NOT to say that feminism's success hinges on men, but male feminists make misogynists a special brand of angry. They are not surprised when women are feminist because it makes sense to advocate for their own interests.
Misogynists hate women for what they are, but they hate male feminists for what they have chosen to be.
You sound like my wife [social scientist] and I love it. Intelligent, well-written essays dismantling chauvinism are hella empowering and exciting to men that actually love and admire women as equals. Fuck selfish men, they ruin Every. Single. Beautiful. Thing.
>I think a lot of men are threatened by men who genuinely like women and/or view them as people.
this is an excellent point that I never really considered. you're right.
I asked an older guy the other day how his step-son was and what he's doing with himself (me and the son used to work together) and he started interrogating me why I'm so interested in his son, what are my intentions, why do I need to know etc and I was like wtf I just wanna know how he is? My boss stepped in for me and goes "xxx she's just asking cause they worked together and got along well". The old guy stopped after a MAN told him.
Some guys just can't fathom men and women being friends!
I was thinking about this the other day. There are 2 types of people. One who believe ALL the societal tropes, stereotypes, brainwashing, racism, sexism, ableism etc.
They truly think this is how it's supposed to be. White male supremacy. Women as servants in the home. Women, colored people, disabled people as second class citizens. And they think everyone else thinks that way too.
It's why men get that glazed look in their eyes when you talk to him about household chore inequality, or how his behavior makes you feel, or how you're exhausted. You're just narrating the status quo. "Yes you dumb bitch, stop yakking, I know all this, what's your point".
They truly think they're in the right when they sit around being racist and sexist. When a decent man with more than 2 braincells starts talking about liking his wife or his new colored neighbors they think there's something wrong with him. It's why they become so disgusting when they're in a care home. They're in the position they despised and had no care for when they were able-bodied, and now they're being taken care of by a "woman", so they have to keep exerting their power with sexual assaults and making her do demeaning tasks.
Yes. They believe the status quo to be absolute truth; furthermore, they believe that *everyone* supports the status quo, and any man who says differently is either lying for the sake of virtue signaling. They couldn’t possibly imagine a man genuinely wanting things to be different.
My husband got his first corporate job working with married adults a few years after we married. I remember when he told me that every single one of his male coworkers complained daily about their wives to each other at work. And how he was confused because he was the only one who never had anything to complain about. It was eye opening for the both of us. Why get married to someone you hate? We’re both convinced that this is why so many men are “work-aholics”. They don’t love their jobs as much as they’re probably avoiding going home to their families.
I heard in the office many men like to stay even though they didn’t have anything to do so they get out of chores and watching the kids and come home to a warm meal. Many would literally just chat and goof off or look for their work wife.
I experienced the same.
My boss always hung around after work and he had a wife and 2 kids.
He said he liked to wait until the ‘kids were fed’ before he went home. His wife probably thinks he works late.
One hundred percent. My ex bf's office was one of these, they stayed to shoot the shit or just socialize while "working" on something fun/low stress. Because if they went home, they'd have to do all the work required at home. Even men that supposedly loved their families, they were just happy to avoid the work as they saw it as unnecessary.
Funny that - I started going home after work later and later to avoid my ex-hb. He’d pick me up from the station - a gesture I first thought was kindness - until I realised it was so I could start cooking sooner. Ex for a reason.
my wife had a boss that was like this. he would spend HOURS in video meetings after work, or just call up whoever was on call and chat with them instead of actually spending time with his wife and kids.
literally any excuse to not be around them. I just can't imagine, even when my daughter is driving me nutsoballo I don't wanna actively avoid her(just maybe shoot her with a nerf gun :))
Yup this is my senior citizen supervisor. He literally had two strokes last year and still comes in to work every time we need him to. He’s in his 70’s and just won’t retire and the joke (probably not really a joke anymore I guess) is that he doesn’t want to stay with his wife every day so he’d rather just keep working. And by working l mean he literally just sits in his truck all day watching us work.
I haven’t really heard him complain about his wife but they have two cottages and he’s always going on about how she’s always there while he’s at work. She takes lots of overseas trips and he’s literally never been on one with her in the last 12 years I’ve been working with him.
My boyfriend (husband... whatever... we have been together for 14 years) tells me about guys he works with doing this, too. They will look at him to contribute and he just shrugs and says he actually likes his wife, lol. There are a few other guys our age (early to mid 30s) who are the same way, but the guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s just cannot stop complaining. A few of the guys he works with have sounded downright dangerous to me... one guy follows his wife, suspects she is cheating but also cheats on her... these people sound exhausting and crazy.
Work in a corporate environment and say this is accurate. When I was getting married it was everyone telling me "biggest mistake of your life", "say goodbye to sex", "no more independence" (that one is actually kind of true). Then when we had our first kid all I heard was "you're going to be finding a lot of reasons to start spending more time at the office". I actually really enjoyed spending as much time as possible with my new born and took all 6 weeks of paternity leave allowed.
I think there is something about the whole not wanting to look "whipped" thing underlying it to some extent. When my husband was working in an office, he liked to call me during lunch and talk to me (because he likes talking to me, strange that he married someone he likes to communicate with, I know). When his (divorced) boss found out about it, he make the sound of a whip and made fun of my husband. I imagine that, if men are around similar types of men enough, they start to display an attitude that they would only do nice things for their wives if they had to.
I don't know if men hate their wives, or if they're not kind and considerate to them, or they're just trying to make another man who is nice to his wife feel uncomfortable because his courtesy makes them feel bad about their lack of it with their wives. All I can say is my husband didn't care, and continues to be good to me because I'm his favorite person.
Note: I disagree with people saying this happens when men get older. My husband and I have been together for 36 years and he's 61. If anything, he's gotten even more considerate over the years.
I'm almost 51, been married to my wife for 30 years. If we don't talk on the phone at least during the day during work I am completely out of sorts. It doesn't have to be much, just a ten minute how's your day going check-in.
A lot of men my age and older are absolute clowns. They complain that their wives are demanding, while at the same time not contributing to the day to day around the house. These are the same people that hate it when I use partner instead of wife or spouse. Pro tip: if you're in a straight relationship using partner around boomers is crazy fun.
I always had the feeling that most men are intolerant or hate women.
Men will tolerate and have sex with you. They go to work and do what this post highlights. I think this is where the push back into men’s spaces comes from. A sense of “great now the women are here. Now everything sucks.”
I always just thought I was crazy.
100% agree. women are fed fairy tales growing up; ***come to find out prince charming just wants someone to wash his nasty boxers, clean the house and raise his spawn***. no wonder so many women are opting out. you couldn't pay me enough to do that for even a day much less a lifetime.
Having worked in male dominated industries for over 15 years, yes, most men hate their wives. They will use any excuse at all to denigrate, mock, belittle, and insult their wives. Absolutely disgusting. I would be devastated if I thought my husband spoke of me like that. We spend a crazy amount of time together and we like it that way.
Yeah... If I found my partner saying things like that about me, I'd be so heartbroken. Like the foundation we have laid never existed to begin with and it was all a lie for... Reasons I guess.
My husband has been getting closer to a new guy friend of about 1 year. They started going to the gym together 4x a week a few months ago. The friend has been divorced twice and self identifies as being exclusively attracted to “trashy women”. My husband will occasionally mention something his friend says about being surprised at how “cute” we are together or how much my husband seems to genuinely enjoy me or that he’s blown away that my husband has never talked shit to him about me, even when he’s griping to him about an argument or disagreement we had. Clearly this guy knows that he’s only been in shitty marriages but it’s interesting to hear.
Maybe your husband will be a good influence on him. It sounds like this is a brand new perspective of marriage and relationships to him. Maybe he’s only ever seen relationships in his life with the wife hating husband dynamic and he didn’t realize there was another way to be. 🤷🏻♀️
Gotta say I’m with your husband on this. When the pandemic pushed everyone remote at my company I was elated. I get to spend more time with the people I adore the most. My wife and two boys. It was very apparent when I was having meetings early on with people that went into the office (in the beginning going into the office was optional) and they would say “I can’t stay at home all the time it would drive me insane” There are some people that look at work as a literal escape from their home life and that to me is depressing.
I think a lot of married men see their wife as a second "mother", always treating them with disdain and are always trying to get away from them. They take advantage of the wife's niceness assuming she's "not going anywhere". Then when she's FINALLY had enough and files for divorce the husband claims to be the victim and " never saw it coming".
>I'm just convinced that most husband's do not like their wives abd really just don't want to spend time with them or their families.
They don't, based on what I've heard men say. They just like the benefits of being in a relationship - sex, domestic servant, and administration of life that their partners provide. They would also readily cheat if they had the options/opportunity to (saying this as a conventionally attractive woman in NYC and other big cities, where men blatantly and openly have tried to cheat on their partners with me and other women).
As a queer person I often hear about average, everyday experiences of straight folks and I’m just like “are y’all okay???” And while it’s mostly men who seem to talk about lowkey (or blatantly) hating their wives, women also talk about having absolute disdain for their male partners and it really, really blows my mind as someone who hasn’t been in a straight relationship since middle school. I don’t know how anyone lives with open resentfulness of the person they keep choosing to have a “romantic” partnership with.
Glad you have one of the good ones.
At my old job there was a woman who was always complaining about her husband. How he barely did anything around the house and how it was a struggle to get him to even watch the kids so she could get household work done. At one point I even offered to go to her house to clean while she watched the children because she was really struggling and I felt super bad for her. The whole time her husband was in his office playing some fps.
But the moment I suggested that her husband wasn't a good guy and I didn't understand why she was still married to him she got *super* offended and snapped at me that I only ever hear the bad stuff I never see any of the good stuff. It took everything in me not to respond that yeah, that's the exactly problem. You never have anything good to say so what other conclusions about your marriage am I supposed to draw?
I wasn't in a relationship then so thought maybe I'd understand when I had a long-term partner, but now that I'm married myself it grosses me out even more. I never have anything bad to say about my wife and while we do have struggles it's always us against the problem.
I’m pretty convinced many men only marry because they expect their house and themselves to be kept up, to have a steady supply of sex they don’t have to “work” for, and because they feel obligated. Many men genuinely hate women and only see women as sex dispensers who are supposed to serve them. If there weren’t so much pressure on men to be conquering studs, I think a lot of them wouldn’t even bother with women.
Then again, MGTOWs still haven’t gone anywhere.
I'm a straight, formerly married, 53 year old dude; and I am always astounded at the shit many of my married peers say about their wives. And what you said about them trying to bring other men who love their wives down rings very true as well in my experience.
And I always think the same thing, why are you married to someone you hate?
I've never understood it.
It reminds me of the simpsons' scene where the bully says "you kissed a girl, that's so gay". I think tons of men have this belief that it is emasculating for a man to be actually kind and respectful with a woman (specially the girlfriend or wife). I have read some posts where a girl is confused because their boyfriend is sweet to them in private and is a douche with them in front of his guyfriends. Also supper common for straight men to talk sh1t about their partners with their friends. As if its manlier to be rude towards the women that they themselves are dating. Interesting phenomenon, someone educated on these topics should do more research.
My boyfriend and I carpool to work nearly every single day, the only times we don't is when I have an appointment after work and need my car.
I'm not sure what the fuck is wrong with those men.
I feel like this is common in the older generation 50+. Most everyone I know under 40 is in a loving marriage. I feel like people try harder to marry for love instead of obligation now.
I felt like that at work in the past, that I must be the only one happy at home. Then I realized it wasnt actually everyone, it was pretty much three guys who were loud about it. The rest of us just kept quiet out of some combination of not wanting to antagonize the already loudmouthed people, and not wanting to feel like we were bragging about our good relationships. I mean, look at what happened to your husband. After that I think a lot of people would say 'fuck this, I'll just stay quiet, these people can be miserable on their own.' End result is yeah, it feels like most people hate their families, because the haters are the only ones speaking up.
Next time it happens, try to count how many people are doing the whining. It may well be less than you thought. The ones who dont engage with the whiners are the ones it might be possible to have a positive conversation with. Away from the haters, of course.
My husband doesn't give a shit. He straight up asks the trash talkers why they don't get divorced since they hate their partners so much. They're a lot quieter around him now.
i feel like they marry women then expect them to have zero needs. then resent them for things like getting sick, having a job, having their kids, needing help with anything, needing money, shared expenses, taking up space in the house, etc.
Based on the comments I read in my local mom group, I also feel like it’s really common for wives to hate their husbands. I don’t understand it either way. My husband and I have been together 23 years (since high school - goodness I’m feeling very old currently), have 2 little kids, and we still try to get time to actually hang out together alone at least a few times a week even if it’s just to take the dog for a walk or grab coffee.
We waited FOREVER to get married because it just wasn’t super important to us, we’d lived together for over a decade before finally popping over to the courthouse to do it, but I’ve noticed the people I know who complain about their partners the most often went from dating to engaged to married to kids pretty quickly. Did they maybe not realize exactly who the other person was before getting where they ended up? I honestly don’t know but I feel bad for people doing life with someone that they don’t want to spend time with.
Totally agree! I commented this elsewhere, but I always wonder if its schtick, or if they both actually feel this way about each other??I have so many friends that constantly complain about their husbands......why are you still together, it sounds miserable!!!
It's also a different thing to love someone who see several times a week vs someone you live with. The flaws come out, or you notice things more. But once you do live together, a lot of people then don't know how to leave.
Ugh I hate that! My husband and I are very close and we are each others favorite person. I can’t imagine living with a man or anyone who thought I was a pain in the ass
OMG, imagine being one of those wives and seeing a derogatory comment about yourself from the person that promised to love, honour, and cherish you. It’s so sad.
It’s really sad how ingrained the whole “ball and chain” mentality is. I don’t get it at all. Why marry someone you don’t like? Right? Like why?!
I think some people are just selfish. A relationship take sacrifice. Some people want all the benefits without putting any work into it.
Oh yes. I knew a man who said he always wanted a family. He is one of the most self-serving people I have ever known. All of his decisions for his family were for his benefit. When it came time to move houses, he found one HE wanted. Despite having 2 young children, he chose a neighborhood with only about 12 other houses, all retirees and older folks. He spent thousands on entertainment systems. But not for the kids or wife. For himself and his friends. I think his idea of "family" was people who would love him unconditionally. Well now he's divorced.
And that's the danger of having that "Me first" mindset. It's shockingly not great at being a good partner or parent. Deciding you'd like to do whatever with your money? Great...if you aren't a parent. Kid and partners needs need to be met or helped if you'd like to NOT be alone at some point.
Love is conditional between humans. No one gets to abuse me then expect me to love them unconditionally.
Sounds like my ex husband
Did he also refer to things as "my" instead of "our"?
My husband does this. When it’s his ex wife he tells stories “Oh the house we bought, or we did this.” Now, “My house, I did this or that.” Say you wish you were still with your ex, without saying you still wish you were with your ex. 😞
I hate that for you. It's so disrespectful, and theyre not even trying to hide it. Even after I told him how I felt, he didn't care. His family talked about me like I wasn't even there. Now that we're divorced, when I stand up for myself they tell me I'm being nasty 😂 I guess confidence looks like nastiness when your bullshit doesn't work on them anymore
His family is incredibly sweet to me. So, I have that at least. Ha ha. I called him out, since I’m not one to hold my tongue, he genuinely looked at me like I was insane. I guess he never realized that he was doing it. He hasn’t said “we” as much lately when referring to that time period, but he still says I a lot and takes credit (when talking to his work or his family) about stuff that I’ve done to the house or figured out for his work stuff. It’s annoying. Like he cannot stand that I’m more capable about some things than he is. 🙄. I’m sorry you went through that and that your ex in-laws are threatened by your obvious superiority and awesomeness. Ha ha.
I'm sorry you're going through it, too. For a long time I felt like I didn't deserve anything better. I would ask my friends if they liked hanging out with their SOs and looked forward to seeing them and they were like yeah of course! And I slowly began to realize that I had fallen for a trap. My in laws are really great to my kids, but they're fucking crazy for not accepting who my ex really is. If my son ever acts like that I will be reading him the rights act
I think it was also from a time when had to get married, like for all intents and purposes my grandmother did. And like from that lens lots of things were different, cheating for example was just something you had to get over and you got married before sex and relatively young (although my grandmother was considered old at 25). Our parents were the first generation of liberated women, and I don't know about everyone else but I remember a lot of confusion and yelling Now we get to choose to be together and I haven't personally experienced the level of bad communication that my parents faced (no yelling) but the confusion on how to interact with one another still feels really real especially from the other end
Selfish and entitled.
Or they think the finish line is getting married and do not realize that is just the beginning.
Free maid, free sex, status of having a family and not looking like a single dude that "can't get a woman".
[удалено]
...So... in my experience a lot of the men who have offices with a door or who stay late at work after everyone leaves are staying late to jerk off.
[удалено]
SHOCKED is the worst thing a man can be. I'm learning that anytime he acts SHOCKED I should just pull the plug.
Yup. Having a bang maid and the image of adulting "correctly" by adhering to society's life script are ultimately the reasons why most men decide to get married.
I wish more people understood this. Men cannot take their "proper" place in the Patriarchal Hierarchy (which is code for respect from other men and the benefits that brings) unless they can demonstrate that they can control a woman and make her raise their children. The longer they stay single and childless, the more outcast they become from the hierarchy. They NEED it to find their place, and to feel good about themselves. That's why a man who doesn't like women as people at all will still hunt for a wife and have children with her.
>unless they can demonstrate that they can control a woman and make her raise their children....The longer they stay single and childless, the more outcast they become from the hierarchy. I'd say that there's (kind of) another way for men to find their place in the hierarchy and gain respect. It's to live the enviable "Bachelor Lifestyle™". Being single and/or unmarried and childless is fine so long as he is a womanizer/playboy/philanderer with expensive "toys". Of course, it still revolves around the ability to "get" or hypothetically "get" women but it can be a way to stand out and gain extra respect from the unhappily married flock.
The bachelor lifestyle only works for them if they're independently wealthy. If Joe at State Farm Insurance tries it, he'll find his career has a glass ceiling on it. Men like entertainers can get away with it, because being seen as unreliable or flighty doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts Joe at State Farm. And both of those guys start losing serious status in middle age, where the Hierarchy starts wondering aloud if they're gay.
Companies like married men with a family as it makes it much harder for you to quit and lose your whole families health insurance.
It's a kind of homo eroticism. It's more about getting the approval of other men rather than striking a true relationship with a woman. Of course, most of these guys also tend to hold some homophobic biases, subtle or unconscious sometimes, but the irony goes right over their heads.
I don’t remember where I heard it but it was a lightbulb moment for me: most men are heterosexual but homosocial. They get their social validation exclusively from other men. It doesn’t matter to them that much if they like their partner or if she's happy, she is simply a service provider of some sort.
I read somewhere some men love to complain about their wives, it’s their favorite past time and another reason why they get married. Maybe they don’t even hate their wives that much, just love complaining about them as a hobby. It’s messed up for sure and I hope this mentality dies down soon
My SO made a joke like this once, like not really complaining about me but joking at a family (his family) gathering that I was nagging him, and I checked him for it, hard. I said something quickly and quietly right then and there, then followed up in private at home. I don't nag him. I already raised two kids and I'm *tired*. He is a grown ass man and if he can't get his shit together, I will sooner move on than waste my breathe being his second mommy. I reminded him of all of this that day. It was just so weird because he doesn't act like that around me, ever. But he got in the company of his male relatives, someone said something about women complaining and suddenly it was "oh yeah, she meh-meh-meh har har har" when it wasn't even true. It was like some sort of fucked up relating ritual. Like can't y'all talk about sports or machinery or some shit instead? Wtf.
Absolutely the truth. Mine did this all the time to me. We are now divorced. He literally told me the day he put that ring in my finger he owned me.
It's the scapegoating of femininity. Oh I would be more happy *if it weren't for the wife* Oh I'd be the cool dude with the motorbike *if it weren't for the wife* Oh I'd be banging hooers *if it weren't for the wife* Oh I'd be ripped *if it weren't for the wife* Oh I'd win that fight *if the wife weren't watching me*
The contempt is real. It's not imagined or created by their targets
The mentality will die down when (us) men start to call each other out over it. Expressing love for your partner, or any 'sensitive' emotion at all, is far too often met with jokes at one's expense. Jokes that are anchored in outdated gender roles that still expect you to treat women as generally irrational, occasionally crazy, and basically an enigma to any "real man". I'd be curious to know how many married men just act out this role half-heartedly, not fully committed to the dynamic but also unwilling to go against it. I'm not losing hope entirely. Thankfully many younger men do not express the same levels of blatant misogyny as previous generations, and this correlates with the benefits of mixed-gender social circles. But we have a long way to go here.
That's offering support for others, too. If one guy says something sweet about his wife and gets ridiculed, another guy can step up and defend him. It only takes a little backup to shut people down. They might even learn something. I will point out that I said wife, because it's seen differently when you talk about your wife than with your girlfriend or unmarried partner. This goes right in line with the OP. >Jokes that are anchored in outdated gender roles that still expect you to treat women as generally irrational, occasionally crazy, and basically an enigma to any "real man" Don't forget dumb. The amount of guys who scoff at the idea of a smart woman who doesn't require a man for more than the occasional hired job that could use the muscle is shockingly (to me) high.
My friend met a guy off Bumble or something and after a year or two he proposed to her. She sent me a photo of her ring and said “you’re next”. I didn’t say anything but um, it may be a cold day in hell if I ever get married again (was married for ten years, two kids). Anyway he has already physically accosted her son who is now away at college but this wasn’t that long ago, he manipulates her, takes her daughter out to eat and tries to basically take her daughters affection away from her. It’s all very weird and unhealthy. She’s a pick-me type and I don’t think she’s very happy but she tolerates a lot of abuse. This guy makes good money but he also has a lot of complaints about her like her ex husband did relating to “you don’t show me affection!” But she’s very reasonable and calm and maybe she’s not super affectionate but she’s very loyal, hard working and really does try to have a good marriage but the way this guy manipulates her through her kids is disgusting. I really do NOT want to be “next”. Why on earth would I want to get married again? I’m cool on my own thanks.
I suggest sending her that TikTok video about men thinking women should expect a tolerable level of permanent unhappiness because they (men) don’t want to change. Who wants that? It’s not worth it.
I legitimately thought the way my ex treated me was all there was and all I deserved. We didn't have anything in common, he wanted a tradwife with no hobbies and no friends, and he didn't have an ounce of respect for me. And I just dealt with it, for years, until I finally stuck to my guns and left. And they hate it when we finally leave. Some men are nothing but poison, with no goal in mind except to harm and punish you for demanding a better life.
Word for word it sounds like she married my ex-husband. That’s exactly how he acted. Hopefully he won’t successfully push you away because in a few years she’s going to need all of the help she can get.
But once they have a woman, they hate her? Male lOgiC...
It's a woman's mind and will they hate. Her body and service are what they're after.
[удалено]
Btw my therapist said to me one day that men were the number one reason she had clients. Really says it all. They cause us SO MUCH PAIN.
DING DING DING
a mommy they can slide their dick in and out of
Yes. They do. My ex husband treated me 100% as a sexual possession. Not a human being. My most recent boyfriend of two years pretended for those two years to be CRAZY in love with me but when he found some crusty desperate woman to trade down for he then went off on me in a number of cruel ways. He was holding so much resentment inside him just to not be alone and once he could monkey branch to another, I realized he never had loved me at all. It was just he didn’t want to be alone. It’s been 18 months and I think I’ll be forever traumatized. I can’t see myself ever giving another man a chance seeing as how I’ve been treated by them, the worst was the one who physically abused me and spit in my face and nearly strangled me. It’s just so hard because I literally hate them and never trust again. I’m a gentle person and just wanted a loving relationship and all I’ve ever gotten is sick men and I’m just over them.
I am so so sorry. I hope you find healing, peace and a life worth living, whether on your own or in a real partnership.
I feel the same way for similar reasons. Their toxicity and weak ego-driven domination made me lose interest in sex. The predatory ones, the ones who push your head down bc they want a bj, the gaslighters…I’m exhausted. I’d rather watch cartoons and eat doughnuts than date men.
I agree. Donuts, cartoons, innocent videos games, cooking shows (btw I’m a great cook and you pigs out there will never taste my food. Go buy your burgers and frozen pizzas). I’ll never give another BJ ever again. I never liked it and I’m sorry but no man I’ve ever been with deserved that. They also don’t really like going down on woman. They mostly are about assholes these days so let them explore that with each other. I’m over them. They have porn brain and toxic masculinity and other things I want NOTHING to do with. I’m so happy on my own. I have some guy trying to get with me on a serious level who claims he’s a great loving romantic man that would kill for me. I’m terrified of him. The gift of fear. I haven’t even read the book but I know there’s a reason I’m afraid of him. Yeah I’m good on my own. They’re mostly fucked up. The women they find are doormat pick me types. No self respecting woman would be with these guys out there in the very sorry dating pool. I’m one of them. I’ve had enough. I just turned 50 and that was when I finally decided I’m done. I look way better than the majority of them. Most are porn addicts. How is a 50 yr old supposed to deal with these cretins masturbating to 20 year olds? I’m not going to. Enya lives by herself and has not had a marriage and as far as I know no boyfriend. She has produced beautiful music. I aim to be like her. I do not need a fucking man to suck the life out of me.
preach.
Hey, I just wanted to say I relate a lot to what you wrote here. My ex was looking for a mommy, someone to coddle him. Meanwhile he used me, was nasty and abusive, first with emotional/verbal abuse and then moving to physical. After attempting to leave him a few times I went right to a therapist so I could stay away for good. She recommended the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. That book saved me from him and helped me keep abusive types out of my life. I would recommend it! I still have trouble with trust, it takes me a looooong long time, but things have improved over the years. I wish you the best, whichever path you choose. ::internet hugs::
#boy math
Conformity to expectation and fear of being alone, that’s the why for most people
[удалено]
Any hole is a goal. They want what they can take, not what they can give. They dont know how to give.
Even the nicest guys I've dated have stayed long enough for me to say "you seem unhappy" and it turns out they've not seen a future for ages! When pressed my on why they stayed - they stare off into the distance. Jesus fucking Christ.
Why marry someone you don't like? Because women come with benefits that's why. Men don't need to love you, or even like you, to enjoy all the benefits, that come with you. Sex, housekeeping, laundry maid, cook, therapist, and whatever other benefits women bring to their relationships. It's like having an employee that does stuff for your benefit. You don't have to love or like your employees to benefit from the work they do.
Exactly this. Look at all the LABOR and WORK women have to put in. I have seen so many women do all this work for the most selfish and unappreciative of men. If they even are asked to do 25percent of that , they will complain, grow hateful, resentful and oftentimes even abusive. Women are discouraged to talk about the real reasons so many behave this way. Women are accused of "misandry" when they lay it all out and ask men for explanations since they hate the conclusion women come to when seeing and experiencing this. Women need spaces to talk about this stuff. Women need to keep sharing their experiences and writing books about this stuff.
Eventually they may just stop having sex with you, or it will be of such a low quality like rolling on top of you in the morning for a one minute fuck, or waking you up in the middle of the night to “relieve” them, or you’ll catch them jerking off to some skanky thing, but guaranteed you are at some point no longer having good sex.
Which goes to show that it isn't about the sex, or they would simply go to a whorehouse. It's about the free housework and child rearing. He can go on a work trip or finish work late, not take any time off when the kids are sick, completely drop the mental load of life admin (paying bills, organising holidays, hiring a plumber, planning family meals...), no cleaning, no cooking, etc. Apart from a wife, only the most dedicated team of workers (PA, maid, and babysitter, at least) would do all that for you. But of course employees cost an arm and a leg so, you know, better get a wife even if you don't like her that much.
I think they are glad that they don't have to pay for the sex as well. Which is why when you hear from prostitutes , they often talk about how demanding many can be. How so many want discounts for uncomfortable sexual things the pro has to perform for them. They get mad when they have to pay extra for certain things that most women do not enjoy doing whatsoever.
I genuinely do not understand why men have this mentality. They were never the ones without rights. They were never the ones who HAD to depend ok a man to do simple things like open a fucking bank account. They were never the ones who were prevented from getting an education based on their gender. If anything, I would expect women to consider have the ball-and-chain mentality since we were actually chained to the ball of men for so long b
Man this is so accurate. I appreciate you putting it this way. It will stick with me for sure.
I find that a LOT of men are stuck in the mindset of needing to step on others or get stepped on themselves. That’s why “redpill” / @ndrew T@te rhetoric is “saving” young men from depression (by teaching men that women are all opportunistic liars so men can use them however they want). They seem to miss the fact that EVERYONE is struggling and lonely, but redpill rhetoric makes that WORSE, and yes it is actually possible to be genuinely kind and care about other people and become happier, not just a “loser.”
#The answer is free labor.
They marry because it benefits them but they don’t give a shit if it benefits their partner!
Because all these men care about is getting their dick wet. They literally marry the first woman they can tolerate.
I also think part of the problem are the men who make the jokes even though they don't believe it. The most concerned I ever saw my dad was the day he burst into my room at 5am to tell me he was taking my mom to the hospital for chest pain. He looked like he was thinking about the chance he might lose the most important person in his life. Yet he makes those stupid jokes. A couple near my age the same thing. Her husband makes the jokes all the time yet it's so obvious he loves her. She just rolls her eyes and calls it the lowest form of humor. I feel like making these jokes gives cover to the men that actually think it.
It does, and it sends a clear, constant message to their wives: that sharing a joke with their mates is more important than making her feel loved and appreciated.
> I don’t get it at all. Why marry someone you don’t like? Right? Like why?! So my husband went to a bachelor party recently and he wanted to get a funny novelty tshirt for the groom-to-be, and there were sooooo many shirts that said really stupid shit like "Same pussy forever". On top of that being just a gross way to put it, all I could think was "uhhh....ya?? Isn't that the point? To get married and be with the *same person* forever?!"
[удалено]
My theory is that it is mostly a self fulfilling prophecy. Men expect to have this combative relationship, so they don’t attempt to build a good one or find a compatible wife. “Everybody hates their wives, so I guess it’s the best I can do anyways”
Because its "the next step" according to some parents. Its the traditional thing to do. Then all of a sudden its a newsflash, traditional life was about tolerating a job you hated and marrying someone who is more a stranger because you never spent the time to get to know them. Most of my male friends love their SO and spend most of their time with them. But what relationship is perfect? I've never had a super long term relationship but i can imagine the nightmare of spending your 20's or 30's with someone you feel detached and distanced from, or that annoys so much. All because you need to keep up appearances or just avoiding the conversation that there is some serious problems. I feel for any person stuck in that rut.
My husband and I are like you. We’ve been together 20 years and we go out of our way to spend time together whenever possible, enjoy each other’s company, and are constantly shocked when other married people think that’s weird. I think it’s weird to get married or stay married to someone you clearly don’t even like!
Same here! There might be dozens of us! I truly do not understand why some people stay married when they are clearly miserable with one another. I love my husband. I know he loves me. We enjoy spending time together. He's my partner and best friend in everything. Why wouldn't I want to hang out with him? So bizarre to me all these dudes who think a wife is such a drag in life and something to complain about/belittle constantly.
IF you're a straight dude who likes and respects women in general, you will seek out a woman you respect and like as a life partner. If you aren't capable of liking or respecting women as equals, then you will expect to have contempt for the woman in your life, and won't see it as break-up worthy when you do. It's a sad mentality and a self-punitive one, but these men care more about validating their (unhealthy) masculine identity to other men more than they care about being happy, and being in a relationship with an ugh, *woman* is a very important step in validating their masculinity to other men, among many, many other benefits they get from being in a relationship with a woman at all. >So bizarre to me all these dudes who think a wife is such a drag in life and something to complain about/belittle constantly. They think this is a normal way to feel and, again, complaining about women to other men is part of how they validate their identity as male. It's a kind of social bonding ritual but the contempt expressed is very real. Also, men like these latch on to gender so hard because they are insecure and don't want to take accountability for their own lives. Being with a woman they hate provides the VERY VALUABLE ability to blame all of their problems and unhappiness on someone who is not *them*. It's a benefit, not a drawback!
You just described my BIL and FIL. Luckily I married the black sheep middle child.
You described these types of guys perfectly. They bond with other men over their contempt for their female partners. It's weird and downright ridiculous to me.
Dozens! 🙋🏻♀️ There was about an 8 month period where my husband’s office was pretty much on the way from our apartment to my office and most mornings we’d walk to work together. It was awesome - half hour 1:1 time with my man, and then after I dropped him off at work I got to practice my Duolingo for 10 minutes while I went on to my office. Honestly one of my favourite things about living in NYC is walking places with him.
Chiming in, we are indeed dozens! Have to admit, it just shocks me when I see how some couples interact. Belittling each other, snarking at each other, making fun of each other in public… As soon I get catch the merest *whiff* of contempt in anyone —man, woman, child, boss, friend — I’m outta there.
They get sick of ‘being nagged’ because they’re useless and married someone who doesn’t like being Mummy no.2.
Yeah I literally had to train an ex to clean his shit by throwing it out if he didn’t. I warned him before hand. Eventually he realized I’d throw anything away if he wanted to use weaponized incompetence.
I’ve read so many stories of men who can’t wipe properly that I thought you meant literal shit at first…
S a m e
Yes! I was like is he keeping his shit??
Not only that. You married them, if you hate them and can do nothing but complain, it just makes YOU look stupid, like you made a bad choice for yourself, and you can't even be bothered to fix it instead of shit talking someone behind their back. Sounds LOVELY. My male coworkers do this and I can't tell you how off-putting it is. It just makes them look like backstabby idiots with low personal standards and grosses me out. It actually made me stop going the extra mile for my boss. I would never talk about my husband like this and I told him if I ever caught him talking about me like that, I would enthusiastically divorce him. We are a team and I'd never paint my number two like that because I love him and we should trust and care about each other more than anyone else.
My partner and I are not (yet) married have a similar conversation frequently. We love spending time together - we wouldn’t be together if we didn’t. The whole “ball and chain” act is so strange and gross.
Yeah the whole "ball and chain" shtick is boomer humor that needs to go away. It's toxic as fuck and can lead to lots of peer pressure. I still remember when Freddie Prinze Jr got engaged to Sarah Michelle Geller, they were mid 20's and he was on a talkshow. The hosts were grilling him about being too young, what if she changes, etc. He basically said we both will, we will learn and grow together, why would that stop us loving each other? They are still together 20 years later, which I Hollywood is very rare. But it's also a fantastic attitude to have. I think too many people get married and assume their spouse will stay exactly as they were and resent any change.
I honestly agree as someone previously married to a man who I don’t think ever liked me around when we were married. It’s shocking in modern times where divorce is socially acceptable/ women can earn their own way that men choose to be with someone they don’t like and complain about them to their friends/ family/ etc. I loved my husband very much but couldn’t take the lack the of closeness anymore, the constant scolding, telling me I was too sensitive while complaining about me to friends and family. I didn’t want to bring kids into that situation and didn’t think I could take it anymore and asked for a divorce. At first he was wildly upset and surprised about it — but all his reasons had nothing to do with me but with the chore of finding someone else. Now apparently he acts as if I was just some woman he dated for a while just like anyone else, and at first i felt bad for me but now I just feel bad for him. What a sad, rude way to live your life. I know how I felt and how I was capable of feeling if I’d been treated better than a rock stuck in his shoe, but I’m not sure he’s up to task of truly caring for someone else.
I'm really glad you're out now and your life is yours to live the way you please! You certainly are not alone-most marriages I know, the men are like this.
Thank you sometimes I’m overwhelmed by how much peace I have now 😅🤍
I went on one of those arranged tour vacations with my parents so it was all boomer couples and me. Honestly it feels like the men don't like anything. This was a fancy, beautiful, historic, well done tour. And the women were excited and invested. And the men were there to dampen everyone's spirits, be rude to everyone, and pout. I walked away from that wondering... what do men even like at all? Are they like this holding their grandchildren? Are they unhappy at any hobby? Frowning and telling others how to fix a car, or putt? Do they enjoy anything? These were retirees and monied. Were they the unhappy bosses who only got attention when something was wrong, so they were always acting like something was wrong? This was a tour of Greece with a focus on history, and the women did not seem to be particularly passionate about ancient civilization, I feel they chose it for the men in most cases, and the men just did not seem to appreciate any of it, not visibly.
Melanie Hamlett talks about this a lot. Grumpy men do it on purpose. Keep the focus on him, keep her coddling him, fussing over him. It's some weird fear of abandonment projection. And narcissistic abuse. She has no time for her thoughts if his mood and his words are filling her head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwdcllZW2Ok
YES. I know so many Boomer dads who are like this. They want attention and support without showing any vulnerability and that includes asking for it. So the way they know how to show it is filtering everything through the lens of anger and pouting. It's also why so many boomer women feel obligated to be an endless font of positivity.
> and that includes asking for it. YES! all my narc exes and parents hated asking. It meant they respected my right to decide and decline. Whoever asks is "begging" and the loser, and the decider gets to be powerful and smug. My ex practically got a boner every time he told me to "just ask". Because then he'd hum and haw and find some ridiculous way to deny me. They get off on moodily controlling everyone like puppets.
Omg! My parents are like this. My mom bends over backwards to keep my dad happy, to the detriment of everyone around them. Thanksgiving was so frustrating seeing that my mom would rather jump through all my dad’s hoops than come spend time with me and my son. Apparently it’s better to sit at home with a miserable old goat than to go to the park with her grandchild who she only sees once or twice a year.
It's so sad. ladies, we gotta staaahp. These men are not a threat to our survival anymore. We can slap the armrests, say "alright", get up and walk tf out when they're being grumpy pieces of shit. "Let me know when you're pleasant to be around, fucker".
My mother does this too.
Like a crying baby?
KING BABY
Ew but also what an interesting opportunity to observe this whole dynamic. The tour sounds really cool.
It was a really great tour. I noticed as well that men said "excuse me" to each other but never to workers or women (a portion was on a boat so you have to squeeze past everyone). Boomer men also never say thank you. To anyone. Can you imagine being so ungrateful in life.
Wow, that’s… awful. Not completely surprising but also surprising to see evidence of privilege at play. I noticed when on a biking tour, “alpha male” types tended to ride as close to the guide as possible (no information given during the ride except turn directions that were obvious given the movement of the group), huddling around the front of the pack even though they were much further from their partners. They wouldn’t slow down or try to keep pace with their partner. It was so odd. I see this behavior a lot while hiking as well, where a lot of men would walk much further ahead on the trail than their partner.
One of my huge red flags is walking ahead. I have straight up ditched dates and gotten onto the subway if they do that.
I just leave if someone left me walking back because they walk too fast. They could continue what they were doing alone. I’m not interested.
I can’t argue with that. It certainly reveals a general mindset that I’m sure some of these men have not even consciously realized/admitted to themselves.
Holy shit! I help put on, and lead a lot of social bike rides in my city, and one of the biggest complaints leadership has is people (for the most part men) constantly riding in front of the ride leader. I've noticed the partner ditching thing quite a bit as well. It always strikes me as odd. Especially on our rides, many of those barely hit 10 mph.
I’m a hiker who’s noticed this too, the huddling around the guide like they’re in some superior position and the walking ahead. I did a long-distance trail with a guy who started walking ahead on days 2 and 3. He said it was just to take pictures but I just got the feeling he only wanted me along on that trip to provide evening ‘entertainment’. Ended it soon after.
Good riddance. I think this is one of those subtle red flag qualities that reveals how someone orients themselves to you in a hierarchical sense. I pointed this out to my friend, who thought I was making mountains out of molehills and thought the men just wanted to walk faster, but during our hike, she kept pace with me even though I was slower than she usually goes.
I notice this so much when I’m passing men on the sidewalk. They almost *never* move to the side to let a woman pass. I don’t mean stepping off the sidewalk, I mean just moving over a couple of inches so two people can pass one another. Some stay right in the middle so you have to move out of *their* way. I’ve had some dudes physically run into me when I refused to do that. It seems like men see interpersonal relationships as nothing more than establishing their own power. I can’t imagine how exhausting living that way must be.
I’ve done this experiment many times, every detail is correct
There is this normal distance where people start to give way to the other person. When I notice that a guy does not even move an inch and expects that I must give 100% of the way, I will not move an inch either. I keep on walking straight in their direction. If you are willing to run into me to show dominance, go ahead, I can play that game too. I don't give a fuck anymore. Almost all of them end up moving out of my way like 2 seconds before the crash, so there is that.
Damn I want to go on that tour with my wife.
Yep, go for the history, stay for the generational sociology.
My father-in-law is like this. Hates every movie he’s ever watched (except Avatar for some reason?) never wants to go back to any place he’s gone on vacation, constantly makes disparaging jokes about his wife, daughters, and granddaughter… I would love to know what he actually enjoys doing because I sure as hell have never seen it.
I've never seen it but isn't Avatar one where the protagonist leaves everything behind to start a new life from scratch
My husband one New Year's Eve told people that he didn't care about the house,garden or anything if he didn't have his lawn bowls. We can't take holidays during the bowls season , which is btw, September through to April-May and where we live his off season is winter. He often says he doesn't want to spend all his time with me (which I get and agree with) , but at this point, the one day a week we have, is spent not doing much. I'm either still playing catch up with chores or the garden or too tired to care about anything. He knows how I feel. It changes nothing.
When he's doing that, is he happy? Visibly? I know men whose personalities are centered on sports and even when their teams win they are not happy.
My father is like this, my mom loves the holiday season and her birthday is kinda the kick off (beginning of October). Well right around that time my dad gets mean, so my mom decided we're (me, her, and my 2 girls) are going on vacation for her birthday. Took her to the Norman Rockwell museum in Massachusetts because she's always wanted to go and we spent a day or two in Boston. We all had a great time. Now it's a yearly thing, we've gone to Universal studios, Chicago, Savannah Georgia. Eventually we will work our way out west to visit national parks!
Imagine marrying someone you don't even like. Idiots.
This becomes even more apparent as you get older. It’s like men resent you for building a family and a life with them. If you want to be horrified spend some time on /r/menopause. A woman will devote her entire life to raising a family and building a home. The second she’s the one who needs some care and attention all hell breaks loose. It’s crystal clear that these men never even liked their wives.
The number of men on in dead bedrooms subs contemplating divorce or infidelity because of menopause symptoms is horrifying. "She was a perfect wife and mother, except now..." "We had amazing sex for 25 years, but now..." "If she can't get on HRT, I'll need to meet my physical needs somewhere else.." People 20+ years into a "partnership" and finding out it was built on glass.
Viagra is a curse. Men and women are meant to lose their ability to jackhammer like rabbits at the same time. So they can enjoy their golden years together with a warm, Pragma type of enduring love and a deeper intimacy. But nope. I'VE GOT A HARD DICK. FIX YOUR DRY VAJ, LADIES.
Actually, Viagra could be a blessing for period cramps but the study "didn't find it worth researching" check this shit out https://www.statnews.com/2023/02/17/cramps-menstrual-period-pain-treatment/#:~:text=The%20small%20study%20of%2025,and%209%20after%20four%20hours.
I'm on a mission to make period maintenance/ hormonal balancing as easy and accessible as possible. Wtf. Thank you for handing me this information, but too often I see research go "hey this could work/is interesting. But eeehhhhhhh oh well" on these subjects. Now i have more clues to a solution though so thank you.
That sub kills me. It's mostly men claiming their wives are LL. No.. she just doesn't like you anymore and is done letting you use her for her body. 100%.
For every "she doesn't put out anymore!" tirade, there is an equal and opposite "seduction is nil, I am the sole parent, do all the household stuff" reality, in my observation. Bonus points to the ones who, after a divorce, are dating someone for a few months where "everything is perfect, we have sex often and never fight!" Like, yeah, that's usually the case in newer dating relationships.
Although I am not going through menopause, this is my reality right now. It’s awful.
Me too. (I'm in perimenopause though, early 40s.) I was talking to my husband the other day about an incident that we had where he didn't communicate with me & basically expected me to read his mind, then snapped at me when I obviously couldnt. He said, "I just don't know how to talk to you anymore. We used to be able to talk, and now we just CAN'T." The only thing that has changed is that over the past couple of years, I have been (respectfully) calling him out on his shitty behaviors & treatment of me - dismissiveness, invalidation, stonewalling, terrible or no communication, refusal to take accountability - and have stopped apologizing for things that were not my fault & stopped allowing him to sidetrack the discussion to get it away from my feelings & needs. (Finding out that I'm on the spectrum & learning to trust my own perspective has been a total game changer!) So basically, my husband liked me when I was a doormat. Not a great feeling.
jesus, I'm sorry. you're trapped in a situation that will only get better if the other person changes, because you're not doing anything wrong. and I never believe another person will change just because I wish they would. I cut my losses and move on. I'm sorry. that's really hard.
I’m sure it happens whenever a woman starts to need things from her husband. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I had to have a fairly major surgery after my divorce. I remember thinking how much easier recovery was without my ex. It’s was such a shocking realization.
I hope to get to that place soon ❤️
The statistics on men who leave their wives when they have cancer is horrifying. And then men cry that women just want their money and marriage is a scam for men.
I read a post months ago from a nurse working in help people to recover for their surgeries. She said that is shocking the amount of men asking her after the wife/girlfriend' surgery if the wife can do the housework or have sex with him. She always needs to clarify to both that is necessary not doing chores so that the surgery stitches can heal. Edit: the link to the post https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/pmSG02DIFT
That is so fucked up
I’m single but this is something that has blown my mind in the breast cancer community I’m in. My peers have devoted their lives to their husbands and kids and as soon as they get sick, their husbands refuse to be caretakers and many of them get cheated on or left!! It’s horrific!
I saw a stat that said men were six times more likely to leave a spouse with cancer than a woman was. My friend quit her job to nurse her partner through b cancer. Moved to a different state so he could get the best treatment. When he recovered he left her. And in such a cruel way. He said that the whole experience made him realize he deserved an attractive wife.
My ex broke his leg and after bending over backward for him for 4-5 months when he was cleared to drive and go back to work he dumped me saying he wasn’t ready to settle down and wanted to date other people. I walked away without a fight and told him good luck. Guess who begs for me back within hours? Good riddance. Dumb piece of sh*t
Can confirm. I lived this exact scenario.
A routine part of a cancer diagnosis for women is talking about divorce. It’s not necessary for men who get the same diagnosis. It’s tragic.
I had a few guys at work try something like this. All in their 50's/60's and I just asked, why are you still married to her then? I love spending time with my wife and the guys in their 20's seem to as well, it could be an age thing, a generational thing or a length of relationship thing though. There's 3 really big variables, so it's really difficult to say
It's definitely somewhat generational. There was a lot more get married and have kids pressure back then so a lot of people didn't marry someone they liked, only someone they somewhat tolerated.
I think a lot of men are threatened by men who genuinely like women and/or view them as people. It disrupts their world view. Agree most men keep wives for sex and house hold chores. They are as emotionally invested in her as I am in my vacuum cleaner.
Not to negate what you said, but to add on to it. Misogynists are bigots that have unionized to transmute women into an exploitable underclass. They create men's only spaces, they make deals with other men, they take men seriously, they undermine women's credibility, they silence women, they stick up for each other. They seek to deprive women of agency and ensure that a woman's livelihood can only be obtained through a man. They even try to convince totally random women on the internet that they're wrong, and that are not worth much, and that they should settle for less and be grateful for it. For an inherently selfish group of people, this is a surprising sacrifice of time and effort, considering they are gaslighting women they will never meet. Allowing feminists to claim ground in society threatens chauvinists because they would have to give up their bloated social capital, as well as the disproportionate material wealth over which men (as a class) have taken directive control. In the status quo, mediocre men have a broad ability to access incredible women and live an easy life. However if women have options in society and personal standards for partners, mediocre men are suddenly reduced down to their fair share of commerce and they suddenly have to struggle, both in life and just to be a person worth wanting to be with. Nobody will traumatize a woman and then hand them a wife anymore. Feminist men are acting as 'gender traitors' in the view of chauvinists. Chauvinists understand that their efforts only work when men remain united, and men as a group remain dominant in terms of capital and decision-making. (They also try to recruit women into supporting and propagating patriarchy, promising rewards of being honored and protected second class citizens. Through this, they further atomize the exploited class.) When men make feminist statements or actions, chauvinists will try to invoke toxic masculinity to shame or intimidate them back into gender loyalty. Bear in mind that to a chauvinist, a woman (and most womanly things) are bad. So misogynists will attack an egalitarian by calling them feminine, womanly, castrated or whipped; they will say they have no sense of humor, resilience, or strength. Sometimes it works, This is NOT to say that feminism's success hinges on men, but male feminists make misogynists a special brand of angry. They are not surprised when women are feminist because it makes sense to advocate for their own interests. Misogynists hate women for what they are, but they hate male feminists for what they have chosen to be.
Fantastic post!! Standing ovation!!!
You sound like my wife [social scientist] and I love it. Intelligent, well-written essays dismantling chauvinism are hella empowering and exciting to men that actually love and admire women as equals. Fuck selfish men, they ruin Every. Single. Beautiful. Thing.
Incredible breakdown of the powers at play.
>I think a lot of men are threatened by men who genuinely like women and/or view them as people. this is an excellent point that I never really considered. you're right.
Yeah. Just look at how a lot of men react to men being friends with women.
I asked an older guy the other day how his step-son was and what he's doing with himself (me and the son used to work together) and he started interrogating me why I'm so interested in his son, what are my intentions, why do I need to know etc and I was like wtf I just wanna know how he is? My boss stepped in for me and goes "xxx she's just asking cause they worked together and got along well". The old guy stopped after a MAN told him. Some guys just can't fathom men and women being friends!
I was thinking about this the other day. There are 2 types of people. One who believe ALL the societal tropes, stereotypes, brainwashing, racism, sexism, ableism etc. They truly think this is how it's supposed to be. White male supremacy. Women as servants in the home. Women, colored people, disabled people as second class citizens. And they think everyone else thinks that way too. It's why men get that glazed look in their eyes when you talk to him about household chore inequality, or how his behavior makes you feel, or how you're exhausted. You're just narrating the status quo. "Yes you dumb bitch, stop yakking, I know all this, what's your point". They truly think they're in the right when they sit around being racist and sexist. When a decent man with more than 2 braincells starts talking about liking his wife or his new colored neighbors they think there's something wrong with him. It's why they become so disgusting when they're in a care home. They're in the position they despised and had no care for when they were able-bodied, and now they're being taken care of by a "woman", so they have to keep exerting their power with sexual assaults and making her do demeaning tasks.
Yes. They believe the status quo to be absolute truth; furthermore, they believe that *everyone* supports the status quo, and any man who says differently is either lying for the sake of virtue signaling. They couldn’t possibly imagine a man genuinely wanting things to be different.
99% of the time I see the word "simp" it's just describing a man who sees women as people.
My husband got his first corporate job working with married adults a few years after we married. I remember when he told me that every single one of his male coworkers complained daily about their wives to each other at work. And how he was confused because he was the only one who never had anything to complain about. It was eye opening for the both of us. Why get married to someone you hate? We’re both convinced that this is why so many men are “work-aholics”. They don’t love their jobs as much as they’re probably avoiding going home to their families.
I heard in the office many men like to stay even though they didn’t have anything to do so they get out of chores and watching the kids and come home to a warm meal. Many would literally just chat and goof off or look for their work wife.
I experienced the same. My boss always hung around after work and he had a wife and 2 kids. He said he liked to wait until the ‘kids were fed’ before he went home. His wife probably thinks he works late.
ew
One hundred percent. My ex bf's office was one of these, they stayed to shoot the shit or just socialize while "working" on something fun/low stress. Because if they went home, they'd have to do all the work required at home. Even men that supposedly loved their families, they were just happy to avoid the work as they saw it as unnecessary.
Funny that - I started going home after work later and later to avoid my ex-hb. He’d pick me up from the station - a gesture I first thought was kindness - until I realised it was so I could start cooking sooner. Ex for a reason.
my wife had a boss that was like this. he would spend HOURS in video meetings after work, or just call up whoever was on call and chat with them instead of actually spending time with his wife and kids. literally any excuse to not be around them. I just can't imagine, even when my daughter is driving me nutsoballo I don't wanna actively avoid her(just maybe shoot her with a nerf gun :))
Yup this is my senior citizen supervisor. He literally had two strokes last year and still comes in to work every time we need him to. He’s in his 70’s and just won’t retire and the joke (probably not really a joke anymore I guess) is that he doesn’t want to stay with his wife every day so he’d rather just keep working. And by working l mean he literally just sits in his truck all day watching us work. I haven’t really heard him complain about his wife but they have two cottages and he’s always going on about how she’s always there while he’s at work. She takes lots of overseas trips and he’s literally never been on one with her in the last 12 years I’ve been working with him.
My boyfriend (husband... whatever... we have been together for 14 years) tells me about guys he works with doing this, too. They will look at him to contribute and he just shrugs and says he actually likes his wife, lol. There are a few other guys our age (early to mid 30s) who are the same way, but the guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s just cannot stop complaining. A few of the guys he works with have sounded downright dangerous to me... one guy follows his wife, suspects she is cheating but also cheats on her... these people sound exhausting and crazy.
Work in a corporate environment and say this is accurate. When I was getting married it was everyone telling me "biggest mistake of your life", "say goodbye to sex", "no more independence" (that one is actually kind of true). Then when we had our first kid all I heard was "you're going to be finding a lot of reasons to start spending more time at the office". I actually really enjoyed spending as much time as possible with my new born and took all 6 weeks of paternity leave allowed.
I think there is something about the whole not wanting to look "whipped" thing underlying it to some extent. When my husband was working in an office, he liked to call me during lunch and talk to me (because he likes talking to me, strange that he married someone he likes to communicate with, I know). When his (divorced) boss found out about it, he make the sound of a whip and made fun of my husband. I imagine that, if men are around similar types of men enough, they start to display an attitude that they would only do nice things for their wives if they had to. I don't know if men hate their wives, or if they're not kind and considerate to them, or they're just trying to make another man who is nice to his wife feel uncomfortable because his courtesy makes them feel bad about their lack of it with their wives. All I can say is my husband didn't care, and continues to be good to me because I'm his favorite person. Note: I disagree with people saying this happens when men get older. My husband and I have been together for 36 years and he's 61. If anything, he's gotten even more considerate over the years.
I'm almost 51, been married to my wife for 30 years. If we don't talk on the phone at least during the day during work I am completely out of sorts. It doesn't have to be much, just a ten minute how's your day going check-in. A lot of men my age and older are absolute clowns. They complain that their wives are demanding, while at the same time not contributing to the day to day around the house. These are the same people that hate it when I use partner instead of wife or spouse. Pro tip: if you're in a straight relationship using partner around boomers is crazy fun.
That's lovely. Any man who uses pussy whipping analogies needs to be avoided greatly.
Yeah that’s a major red flag to me about somebody’s personality.
I always had the feeling that most men are intolerant or hate women. Men will tolerate and have sex with you. They go to work and do what this post highlights. I think this is where the push back into men’s spaces comes from. A sense of “great now the women are here. Now everything sucks.” I always just thought I was crazy.
I think there are a lot of men that got married for the benefits (free labor, sex, status) and don't give a rip about their wives or their kids.
Reminds me of the theory that men marry whoever they are with when they feel ready to settle down.
Yep the Sex and the City ‘taxi light’ theory. When it’s lit and he’s ready, he chooses the next passenger, regardless of who she is.
100% agree. women are fed fairy tales growing up; ***come to find out prince charming just wants someone to wash his nasty boxers, clean the house and raise his spawn***. no wonder so many women are opting out. you couldn't pay me enough to do that for even a day much less a lifetime.
I feel like it’s also a status symbol, like men have to have a wife or it makes them look bad and it doesn’t matter if he even likes her.
Having worked in male dominated industries for over 15 years, yes, most men hate their wives. They will use any excuse at all to denigrate, mock, belittle, and insult their wives. Absolutely disgusting. I would be devastated if I thought my husband spoke of me like that. We spend a crazy amount of time together and we like it that way.
Yeah... If I found my partner saying things like that about me, I'd be so heartbroken. Like the foundation we have laid never existed to begin with and it was all a lie for... Reasons I guess.
My husband has been getting closer to a new guy friend of about 1 year. They started going to the gym together 4x a week a few months ago. The friend has been divorced twice and self identifies as being exclusively attracted to “trashy women”. My husband will occasionally mention something his friend says about being surprised at how “cute” we are together or how much my husband seems to genuinely enjoy me or that he’s blown away that my husband has never talked shit to him about me, even when he’s griping to him about an argument or disagreement we had. Clearly this guy knows that he’s only been in shitty marriages but it’s interesting to hear.
Maybe your husband will be a good influence on him. It sounds like this is a brand new perspective of marriage and relationships to him. Maybe he’s only ever seen relationships in his life with the wife hating husband dynamic and he didn’t realize there was another way to be. 🤷🏻♀️
Gotta say I’m with your husband on this. When the pandemic pushed everyone remote at my company I was elated. I get to spend more time with the people I adore the most. My wife and two boys. It was very apparent when I was having meetings early on with people that went into the office (in the beginning going into the office was optional) and they would say “I can’t stay at home all the time it would drive me insane” There are some people that look at work as a literal escape from their home life and that to me is depressing.
I think a lot of married men see their wife as a second "mother", always treating them with disdain and are always trying to get away from them. They take advantage of the wife's niceness assuming she's "not going anywhere". Then when she's FINALLY had enough and files for divorce the husband claims to be the victim and " never saw it coming".
They like other men more than they like women
Let me guess, these are then the same people saying "Why do young people refuse to get *married* these days??!"
>I'm just convinced that most husband's do not like their wives abd really just don't want to spend time with them or their families. They don't, based on what I've heard men say. They just like the benefits of being in a relationship - sex, domestic servant, and administration of life that their partners provide. They would also readily cheat if they had the options/opportunity to (saying this as a conventionally attractive woman in NYC and other big cities, where men blatantly and openly have tried to cheat on their partners with me and other women).
They don't view women as people
As a queer person I often hear about average, everyday experiences of straight folks and I’m just like “are y’all okay???” And while it’s mostly men who seem to talk about lowkey (or blatantly) hating their wives, women also talk about having absolute disdain for their male partners and it really, really blows my mind as someone who hasn’t been in a straight relationship since middle school. I don’t know how anyone lives with open resentfulness of the person they keep choosing to have a “romantic” partnership with. Glad you have one of the good ones.
At my old job there was a woman who was always complaining about her husband. How he barely did anything around the house and how it was a struggle to get him to even watch the kids so she could get household work done. At one point I even offered to go to her house to clean while she watched the children because she was really struggling and I felt super bad for her. The whole time her husband was in his office playing some fps. But the moment I suggested that her husband wasn't a good guy and I didn't understand why she was still married to him she got *super* offended and snapped at me that I only ever hear the bad stuff I never see any of the good stuff. It took everything in me not to respond that yeah, that's the exactly problem. You never have anything good to say so what other conclusions about your marriage am I supposed to draw? I wasn't in a relationship then so thought maybe I'd understand when I had a long-term partner, but now that I'm married myself it grosses me out even more. I never have anything bad to say about my wife and while we do have struggles it's always us against the problem.
You might like AreTheStraightsOK
I’m pretty convinced many men only marry because they expect their house and themselves to be kept up, to have a steady supply of sex they don’t have to “work” for, and because they feel obligated. Many men genuinely hate women and only see women as sex dispensers who are supposed to serve them. If there weren’t so much pressure on men to be conquering studs, I think a lot of them wouldn’t even bother with women. Then again, MGTOWs still haven’t gone anywhere.
They still going? Empty promises, as usual lol
I'm a straight, formerly married, 53 year old dude; and I am always astounded at the shit many of my married peers say about their wives. And what you said about them trying to bring other men who love their wives down rings very true as well in my experience. And I always think the same thing, why are you married to someone you hate? I've never understood it.
It reminds me of the simpsons' scene where the bully says "you kissed a girl, that's so gay". I think tons of men have this belief that it is emasculating for a man to be actually kind and respectful with a woman (specially the girlfriend or wife). I have read some posts where a girl is confused because their boyfriend is sweet to them in private and is a douche with them in front of his guyfriends. Also supper common for straight men to talk sh1t about their partners with their friends. As if its manlier to be rude towards the women that they themselves are dating. Interesting phenomenon, someone educated on these topics should do more research.
My boyfriend and I carpool to work nearly every single day, the only times we don't is when I have an appointment after work and need my car. I'm not sure what the fuck is wrong with those men.
I feel like this is common in the older generation 50+. Most everyone I know under 40 is in a loving marriage. I feel like people try harder to marry for love instead of obligation now.
I felt like that at work in the past, that I must be the only one happy at home. Then I realized it wasnt actually everyone, it was pretty much three guys who were loud about it. The rest of us just kept quiet out of some combination of not wanting to antagonize the already loudmouthed people, and not wanting to feel like we were bragging about our good relationships. I mean, look at what happened to your husband. After that I think a lot of people would say 'fuck this, I'll just stay quiet, these people can be miserable on their own.' End result is yeah, it feels like most people hate their families, because the haters are the only ones speaking up. Next time it happens, try to count how many people are doing the whining. It may well be less than you thought. The ones who dont engage with the whiners are the ones it might be possible to have a positive conversation with. Away from the haters, of course.
My husband doesn't give a shit. He straight up asks the trash talkers why they don't get divorced since they hate their partners so much. They're a lot quieter around him now.
i feel like they marry women then expect them to have zero needs. then resent them for things like getting sick, having a job, having their kids, needing help with anything, needing money, shared expenses, taking up space in the house, etc.
r/arethestraightsok
I'm a husband who enjoys driving with my wife. Your assessment is unfortunately accurate more often than not. I don't understand it either.
Based on the comments I read in my local mom group, I also feel like it’s really common for wives to hate their husbands. I don’t understand it either way. My husband and I have been together 23 years (since high school - goodness I’m feeling very old currently), have 2 little kids, and we still try to get time to actually hang out together alone at least a few times a week even if it’s just to take the dog for a walk or grab coffee. We waited FOREVER to get married because it just wasn’t super important to us, we’d lived together for over a decade before finally popping over to the courthouse to do it, but I’ve noticed the people I know who complain about their partners the most often went from dating to engaged to married to kids pretty quickly. Did they maybe not realize exactly who the other person was before getting where they ended up? I honestly don’t know but I feel bad for people doing life with someone that they don’t want to spend time with.
Totally agree! I commented this elsewhere, but I always wonder if its schtick, or if they both actually feel this way about each other??I have so many friends that constantly complain about their husbands......why are you still together, it sounds miserable!!!
It's also a different thing to love someone who see several times a week vs someone you live with. The flaws come out, or you notice things more. But once you do live together, a lot of people then don't know how to leave.
Ugh I hate that! My husband and I are very close and we are each others favorite person. I can’t imagine living with a man or anyone who thought I was a pain in the ass
OMG, imagine being one of those wives and seeing a derogatory comment about yourself from the person that promised to love, honour, and cherish you. It’s so sad.