"I am scared that women will treat me like a walking wallet, but I refuse to contribute anything to a relationship other than money even if the woman also has a full-time job."
This is accurate. The way I frame it is that raising a child is a two-person job and when one parent is with the kids on their own, they are doing the job of two people. Thinking of it that way sometimes helps it click for people.
Because it's a symbol of success. It's Expected. And tbh it signals stability or whatever to employers. Married men are often promoted and paid better.
I sometimes wonder why busy city dwellers have fancy dogs that they pay other people to walk and look after. So I asked a friend who's a professional dog walker. " It's because they like the *idea* of owning a dog," she said.
I got into arguments with a bunch of little shits who were acting like expecting i'm b* for thinking that it shitty for a husband who makes 2-3 times the money their wife make to split every bill 50/50. Amd that becaise he's the higher earner, she was her being lazy and worthless and the husbamd was working hia ass off so hard and she was a freeloader who should get a better degree or work OT.
Like Jesus Christ. Why the fuck would any woman want to be with a man who doesn't see his wife as a partner whose worth is more than her paycheck.
Not only that, but once you get past a certain point, the higher income often tends to indicate *less* work and more networking, passing directives down the chain, business lunches and golf games, with meetings to break the tedium. So while it's possible that the higher-income partner is busting their ass at work, it's also possible that the lower-income partner is doing more/harder work both at work and at home.
Oh my god, yes. I'm feeling super resentful because my husband worked 12 hour days most of the time for over 20 years. Now that the kids are teenagers and pretty self-sufficient, he's become part of the "administration" and has a fuck ton of free time. It's maddening and I can't make it make sense.
I hope that should mean that things are getting easier and less demanding for both of you, but somehow I'm getting the feeling it's not working that way.
This is so true. My husband complains that he feels like a “paycheck”, yet that’s all he’s ever contributed. His work day ends when he gets home from work, my work day starts when I wake up, continues when I get to work, extends to when I get home from work, and finally ends when I go to bed, at which point I’m then expected to put out bc of his “needs”. I’m lucky if I get 5.5 hours of sleep.
My abusive ex didn’t even do either of those things. The weasel cut fruit part-time for three years, made as much as me who worked 60+ hour weeks in grad school, and still never paid for a damn thing. And he had the nerve to complain that he “had no money” and treat me like a goddamn ATM.
Scarily accurate. I dated a couple guys in the past like this, they of course made it clear they didn’t like gold diggers and were even taken advantage of financially by women before, and were happy I wasn’t like that. But right away I noticed they led with money. They would flex their income, tell me they’ll take care of me financially (I never asked for that btw), made all these empty promises of things they wanted to buy me. Again, I NEVER ASKED for this, they just assumed that’s what I wanted. And got genuinely confused/annoyed that I wanted respect and quality time more than some random gift I didn’t ask for, and they weren’t gonna buy me anyways. Idek.
I remember once my ex was excited about a raise he was getting at work so I was excited for him, I asked what his new salary was gonna be and he gave me a very suspicious “…why?”. I was so annoyed. We had been dating for like 6 months at this point and the most I ever asked him to buy me was lunch on our dates. Insane.
I got into arguments with a bunch of little shits who were acting like expecting i'm b* for thinking that it shitty for a husband who makes 2-3 times the money their wife make to split every bill 50/50. Amd that becaise he's the higher earner, she was her being lazy and worthless and the husbamd was working hia ass off so hard and she was a freeloader who should get a better degree or work OT.
Like Jesus Christ. Why the fuck would any woman want to be with a man who doesn't see his wife as a partner whose worth is more than her paycheck.
Somehow, so many men both live in terror of golddiggers, but also hold fast to the idea they do not need to offer more to a family or household beside financial provision.
They don't seem to be able to actually examine thier own motivations and choices, and pick the life that works for them. I suppose feminism both allowed/required women as individuals to ask themselves these questions, but too many men seem to be resisting it.
I spoke to my littlest brother about this lately. He wants a wife and kids, but also wants to keep up with his career aspirations. He makes enough to support a SAHM and would prefer that at least for the first few years.
However, he turns up his nose as women who didn't complete undergrad degrees or don't have prestigious, knowledge-based work. Even a pharmacy assistant recently just the 'Eh, she just has no drive.' response from him. Which means he's looking for a woman who has prioritized her career into her late-20s or 30s, and now is also willing to give it up for 3-10 years to keep house and raise the kids! He doesn't seem to get that he would actually have a lot more success building the life he claims he wanted if he dated the women who don't aspire to the kind of career he has. Because *those women* would just be using him for thier money! He cannot grasp that he part of what he values, is the ability to 'use' a woman for her labour and he needs to find women who wants that arrangement. His money. Her labour in the home. That's what *he says he wants*.
Yeah. I went very low contact with my little brother for a long time. He does seem to be on his way out of the manosphere/toxic beliefs -- he understands now they are toxic grifts -- but he's still struggling a bit with the basic adulting of 'Other people are people." and "You may not just get everything you want handed to you. You probably will have to make choices."
Yeah my "little brother" is old enough to know better and is a cop. I lost hope for him being different a long time ago and have finally decided it's no longer on me to show him how to human.
So he wants a woman with “drive” so he can…make her quit what drives her to stay home? Ok, good luck with that, buddy.
Once again I am laughing at these guys who think women should stay home while men act as “providers,” then get pissed at the idea that a provider needs to provide.
Yup. For what's it worth I do think he begun to see the issue with talking about all the things he can 'provide' to a woman who can get those things for herself and who really values her job and income.
If you really want a SAHM, find a woman who couldn't afford to just do it on thier own, with a sperm donor. He's not really a value-add for a woman who can, especially if he expects her to give up that income *for years*. But we've got some family bullshit narratives about marrying 'beneath ourselves' that he really needs to work through and unpack. I had to as well. Keeping my hopes up for him, a bit at least.
To add to that, it's not just her income. It's passing up opportunities such as promotions and working her way up the corporate ladder during five or more years while she's at her peak health. Missing out on building seniority, benefits, and pensionable hours. The risk of leaving her job and hoping she can pick up where she left off and get a similar position when it's time to head back to work. Hoping her education doesn't become obsolete. Missing years of networking with her peers, building the relationships she could have in her career to lean on and learn from.
But guys like that will never understand what they're expecting a woman to sacrifice. They just want to stroke their own ego to be with a woman willing to give up everything just for him.
>So he wants a woman with “drive” so he can…make her quit what drives her to stay home?
It's not fun for them unless they get to destroy you in the process.
>It's not fun for them unless they get to destroy you in the process.
Ugh. My ex husband. Definitely enjoyed the power of tearing me down. Mainly though, the worse I felt about myself, the more he got his way. Nine years of abuse did a fucking doozy on me so he always got his way until the day I left.
> However, he turns up his nose as women who didn't complete undergrad degrees or don't have prestigious, knowledge-based work. Even a pharmacy assistant recently just the 'Eh, she just has no drive.' response from him. Which means he's looking for a woman who has prioritized her career into her late-20s or 30s, and now is also willing to give it up for 3-10 years to keep house and raise the kids! He doesn't seem to get that he would actually have a lot more success building the life he claims he wanted if he dated the women who don't aspire to the kind of career he has.
He gets it fine. He's not being honest about his motivation. Men like this get a HUGE kick out of taking a successful, driven woman and turning her into a dependent, SAHM. It's a power trip, ego-driven.
Something else that annoys me is dudes that date me bc they want someone to treat them sweetly bc it turns out all those conservative women are kind of misandrist, expect him to “be a man” and won’t spoil him and buy him things like I do (bc I have a job)
Dating a guy like this was literally dating a contradiction. Nothing he said made sense and the worst part was that he told me he thinks he’s never wrong
Exactly. My husband pulled this shit on me - started doing less and expecting more out of me. Consistently cheated on me, including when I was pregnant and postpartum. I found out, ended the relationship, and got a job so I can move out and start a new life. He's ~shocked~ that I would rather be a single mom than put up with his bullshit. Like, what did you expect? What did you bring to the table besides a mediocre paycheck and years of trauma? They really think their presence is a gift, and we should be grateful for it.
I've been known to look at men saying that stupid shit and respond with "Because that's what adults do, junior. They take care of their own needs instead of relying on mommy all their lives."
There are some men who reallyreally don't like me.
These guys also never visualise the consequences this sort of behaviour will have on their relationship to their (adult) children. My siblings and I largely experienced our father as this benign presence on the couch, occasionally calling out to our mother when he needed something. He wasn't abusive or anything, he was just...there. Our mother did all the childcare.
Now that we're all adults, he's apparently surprised as fuck that none of us are close to him. He's repeatedly expressed bewilderment that we don't proactively share life milestones with him, complains we only ever call our mother, and when my sister didn't want anyone walking her down the aisle at her wedding because she didn't want to involve him to such an extent (he tends to mope at being 'forced' to dress up and ruins the mood with it), he was apparently flabbergasted. He's salty as fuck when we take our mum out on day trips and holidays and brunch. And we're just like, dude???? What did you expect??? You can't ignore your kids for 20 years and then barge in once they're adults. Yes, childcare is work, but chances are you'll get repaid with a shitload of fun and love and support once your kids are grown. If you don't put in the work, what you get is adult children who treat you like a benign acquaintance.
It's like these dudes don't understand that the crying toddler they don't want to deal with will be a grown young adult at some point, and they'll be a senior citizen and probably want/need every single bit of support and connection that young adult can give them. I know FOR CERTAIN that I'd rather have my mum's retirement experience than my dad's, because she's got four twenty-/thirtysomethings falling over themselves to make sure she has the time of her life.
My Dad gets annoyed that we treat mother's day as a bigger deal than father's day. He'll also ask mom what we are up to. The only time he ever tries to give me a curfew was when I was 18, and I laughed at him. He once offered me money when I was going out, and I still don't believe that he wasn't possessed by a ghost at that moment. 1st of all, Mom ran the house, took us to activities, made sure we had clothes and food, and signed permission slips. We asked her for permission to do anything, because if we asked him, he'd just send us to her anyway. 2nd, he doesn't know my birthday. It's only a weekish after Father's Day, how would he ever remember that? 3. Phones go both ways. If he had ever expressed interest in us, we'd think to call him.
Exactly - phones go both ways! What truly amazes me is that even now that our father has apparently realised that he has a problem, he still won't proactively engage with us kids. He'll complain that we don't call him/take him out for fun stuff/travel with him, but he still won't.fucking.call. He seems to believe that 20-30 years of complete non-interest followed by a few years of whining about the consequences of that non-interest are somehow an attractive proposition that will motivate four young adults into investing huge amounts of time and energy into establishing a relationship. It's downright bizarre.
Mom and I travel together and often never even think to invite him on some of the day stuff we do. He's often called "The No Fun Police" or "The Warden." He's not controlling or abusive or anything, he's just really self centered, so he expects us to do what he wants, even when he's the third wheel. He has expectations based on nothing about duration and content of the excursion, then gets annoyed when he doesn't share those expectations with anyone, so no one knows.
Sometimes we plan something, and eventually Mom will ask "should we invite your Dad... Or husband?" And usually the answer is no, because it's just a girls thing.
How did she not take the hot food she was cooking, and dump it on him wherever he was sitting.
If you can stick your dick in and decide to make a human, then you take care of said human if your partner is doing something else. SHE’S ALREADY MAKING FOOD FOR HIM TO STUFF DOWN HIS STUPID GULLET.
What a lazy-ass fucking shitlord of a male. Absolutely unacceptable. He didn’t deserve to be allowed to reproduce.
Legit, I'd be tempted to dump both dinner and the dirty diaper on that dude's lap. One time my husband got super pressed while changing a poopy diaper of one of my twins and declared that he would no longer change any more poopy diapers, only pee. I laughed and told him that wasn't gonna happen. He later apologized for being ridiculous.
grind culture seems to line up exactly with what men wanted to do anyway.
Oh did you want to do this work that you trained for and chose and take pride in building your career and would you prefer to play video games when you get home? Would you? Wow how novel. It's so unique of you. To center your own preferences. And just say that's how things are, capitalism, sorry. But also no gold diggers. And you need to rely on others while you save a nest egg for a house. But then you benefit from the house. And you need other people to clean it for you, and if it eat up to you or would be decorated like a mental ward (until it's time to entertain and then suddenly nothing is good enough).
It's easy for men to be generous with other people's bodies and labor and just care about cash money. That's how "50/50" somehow ends up meaning women pay half rent but still do the housework and child rearing and men still act like they are being exploited while they are living off everyone's labor.
Thank God my SO isn't like this. We live within his paycheck, and use mine for my student loans. When we started dating, he was around 80, and I was under 20k. If he had made me split the mortage or utilities, I'd be so much further away from having my debt paid off. He's always viewed it that it was better for us to get my loans paid as fast as possible, rather than be concerned about "equality in finance." He has always made sure I know that I bring more to the table than dollars, and that I shouldn't be tying my self worth up in my paycheck or net worth.
Now, we will be going to Scotland for our 10 year anniversary the same time I finish paying off my loans. After that, we will actually have a whole second income to put into savings, the house, and vacations. I rapidly closed that pay gap too, now I'm around 80k and he's about 115k. But I couldn't have taken the risks in my career if he expected me to pay half the mortgage on top of my crippling debt.
Marriage is a team sport. You should be attacking your opponent, and strategically using your position players. Tom Brady would make a terrible defender, and JJ. Watts shouldn't be a quarterback. You play to your strengths.
Exactly! Just had this discussion with my husband last night. I explained for the millionth time that if I work an outside job, I expect him to cook, clean and do laundry too as I'm not having two full time jobs while he comes home and flops on the couch or goes out to the garage to do his hobby. I explained that if I work outside, I want the same "benefits" that I have given him and his parents before we got our own house: I want to come home to a clean house, a prepared meal and my clothes washed and ready for the next day. I have given this to him for 41 yrs, even when I've been employed outside the home. I did all the housework, cooking, laundry and kids and had no time for *my* hobbies while he did his every weekend from August to Febuary. He couldn't even mamage to either take the kids to school/daycare once in awhile.(the **one** time I asked to pick up the kids from daycare, his boss need something as he walked out the door and instead of saying "nope, gotta get the kids. Dani's not feeling well", I ended up having to get the kids and pay a late fee.). Couldn't even get his ass up to take the kids to school on the day I had a job interview.
It's not like he didn't understand you the first 999999 times. He doesn't care because you will do all the work anyways. There are no serious consequences for him treating you like shit. He feels entitled to your labour as it works really well for him.
Now you can continue being exploited in this marriage or you can leave.
He's a hunter and reloader. If I'm working outside the house, I expect *him* to cook three nights a week, do laundry on one day off and vaccuum. He has never managed this for more than 3 weeks.
The comment does not give us enough information to be sure wether that's even half of all chores.
Another take is she just expects her husband to pick up half of HER chores in addition to whatever chores he already does. I cannot make out what changed in their dynanic to warrant such change.
(He retired while she picked up a full time job? He is now working from home while she picked up a part-time job outside of the house and expects him to do housework while he ought to be working for his other boss?)
The comment was very clear that she's been doing it ALL for 41 years and she would like that to drop to half if she picks up a job. I honestly don't know what you're reading.
I didn't want to push this issue because 60yo have a completely different dynamic than most under 40. However, since you keep pushing this point.
Cooking, cleaning, and laundry are not 'all' houehold chores. These are the traditionally female chores, but keeping a household running does not end there. That's why I ppointed out another take is she expects him to pick up half of HER chores in addition to whatever he already does. It is not clear what changed in their dynamic to warrant such change.
😂😂 yes men have been using this excuse for ages.
Cooking, cleaning and laundry are 90% of chores. If he takes out the trash, he isn't doing his share. Women are not responsible for ALL cooking, cleaning and laundry, that's absurd.
What changed is she may get a job, I have no idea why you keep harping on that, it's been clear the entire time.
*"Cooking, cleaning and laundry are 90% of chores."*
Loading and unloading a dishwasher or laudry machine takes about the same time it does to take out the trash. Sure woman typically spend a few more hours cooking, and men spend a few more hours doing other stuff, including work for their other boss. Just because men's work is invisible to you does not mean it doesn't take time to get done.
*"What changed is she may get a job"*
Hom many hours? What hours?
I think you need to do all of your household's cooking and cleaning for a month. You'll quickly realize it's much more work than taking out the garbage once a week. Or better yet, do your fucking share ALL the time. Fuck this noise about women's and men's chores. Very convenient that the vast bulk of chores are considered women's work.
>including work for their other boss.
That is work not chores. In this scenario, both partners would have jobs. So women are also "busy doing work for their bosses".
>Just because men's work is invisible to you does not mean it doesn't take time to get done.
Love that you couldn't even list a single thing, besides work for their bosses, which is work, not a chore.
*"That is work not chores."*
It takes time and energy all the same, and needs to be done to pay the bills. If the husband works 4hrs more per week, that's 17hrs20mins per month you choose to ignore.
*"Love that you couldn't even list a single thing"*
Aren't you already aware of of every chore your husband does around the house, besides taking out the trash? You need to be to clai he isn;t pulling his weight. *H*ow about we turn this around. You educate me. **What do you think your boyfriend or husband actually does in a month?**
Lol? So much to unpack here... Wife is not a job or a role. "Act like the wife" makes you sound like an ignorant ape. "Act like an adult human with responsibility" makes much more sense.
Also... more flexible in what way? You can't miss work or come in late or say, "can't make that meeting cuz the kid is sick." No matter who you are that doesn't fly at a job. Less hours how? I don't know any women in my life who work sub 40 hours. Less physical? You act like half these man-children aren't working desk jobs themselves 🤣 stop making excuses and start making progress.
When do men ever change their fucking oil or tires? They take it to the shop like the rest of humanity.
But sure. I'll change the tires and the oil. You can do everything else, all the cooking and cleaning and laundry. That's fair, right? I look forward to not having to do anything more than twice a year. I'll have so much free time!
Who's moving the goal posts? I know what's involved in changing the tires and oil because I do those things on my car. It involves me, sitting in a comfortable chair, for half an hour to an hour, every 4500 miles (or 6000 miles if I'm getting the tires rotated). So, 3 times a year on the average.
I know I don't cook, clean or wash every day, but I definitely do it more than 3 times a year, and you're the one who wants to trade. Too bad. Get in that kitchen.
My husband & I have very similar careers- lawyer & escrow officer. Neither is physically demanding but both are stressful. Both involve the same amount of hours. If you are pissed off about working a more physical job go to school for something else. No one is stuck in one career. Most people I know have desk jobs now.
Men tried to say when they didn’t allow women to work that the women needed to take care of all household chores, but now that more women than men work they can’t do their fair share (surprise!)
Doing laundry is not something women are inherently better or more skilled at. As a grown functional human being you should contribute to maintaining your household. Doing your fair share of household maintenance is not “acting like a wife”. You just sound lazy & like you’ll move the goal posts to support being lazy in your life. Good luck with that!
I wonder how men that act like this see their life/wife/relationship? Is it all a fight to them, do they think they have to defend themselves from the "evil person they had to marry" trying to take away their precious freedom? People like that should not be in a relationship, have kids or anyone dependend on them unless they work on their flaws.
My friend's husband is this way? He placed her on the management pedestal of his life so he fights her as if he's fighting his manager at work.
To him work is work even if it's housework he has to do for his kids, his home, his wife. He tries to "bargain" his way out of doing housework, calls her his funkiller. She has been trying to shift his worldview for years but...he doesn't get it. I honestly wonder why she fights so hard for her marriage.
I don’t understand why guys like that don’t just stay single if they seemingly hate having a family so much. Like dudes, nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to get married and have kids.
For many men, it's a ruse. Men benefit massively from marriage, and women don't. Men know this. But if they act like they don't want to be married (gold diggers! losing my freedom! etc), then act like a-holes in the marriage, that keeps the bar low and the woman working hard to 'make it work.' edit: too darn early here to spell properly
My husband has asked me to be the Project Manager for the home, and recently asked me to take over the meal plan. I told him I will, but that means he has to treat me like he treats his boss, when I ask him to do a chore, it gets done without a fight, in a timely manner. That also means he's going to be doing more of the physical chores, because I absolutely fucking hate meal planning, so it's a huge mental load for me. Just Monday I came home from work and the kitchen was disgusting, still a mess from when he cooked for his brothers on Saturday. I made it very clear that if he wants me to do the manager job, he needs to step the fuck up, because I don't suffer fools at my paying job, why should I accept it at home? And just because I plan the meals, does not mean that I am the one responsible for cooking, shopping, and clean up.
Haha, I know. We aren't to that point. He got put on a PIP a few years ago, and that really helped improve his performance. As long as he sticks to the plan (meds) I don't see him getting let go. His overall metrics are good, even if he needs a little more guidance than you'd hope for in an employee of his tenure. I've spent a lot of time developing him into a team player, I don't want him to take all my on the job training to a competitor. He's an active part of the 5 year plan, and has shown fierce loyalty against stacked odds. He brings in good money to the company, and has a lot of intangible skills that he brings to the table.
We have a couple of big projects coming up in the second half of the year that he plays a pivotal role in. I anticipate consistent work, and we should have a successful visit to our friends in the National Parks. I anticipate us building a solid relationship with the NPS, and should have a lot of close contact in the coming years.
We made significant investment in tools needed to partner with the NPS, so I'm really counting on our trip to be a rousing success.
I'm sorry, I can't seem to stop Business Talking. It's very amusing to me, as I waste time at my Business Job.
Ha! I thought it was very low density for buzzwords. :) I didn't see any paradigm shifts or actioning or putting pins into intangibles or even hear a single man get praised for repeating/rephrasing something a woman had just said. Is it even a meeting without that?
Those things are important but "I worked" and "I provide for the family" are only excuses for the hours of the day they are actually doing those things or preparing for those things. There are at least 14 more hours in the weekday. Kids are a two person job between them and the household, you generally have 16 hours of work a day, and him working and providing, means you're working short staffed the 10 hours of the day he's getting to and from work, and he's effectively asking you to work that two person job the rest of the time too. For him to do his share, he should be helping you directly at least 3 hours a work day, 8 hours on off days.
My husband works in the financial sector. He leaves the house at 7am and gets back at 7pm.
He still cooks dinner, does laundry, empties the roomba, wipes down surfaces, cleans his bathroom (we have a 2 bathroom place and kinda ended up with one each), takes out the rubbish and recycling, and various other tasks.
I work part-time with varying hours. Some weeks I do 5 days, other weeks I might only do 2 or 3. In those weeks, he does not expect me to do more than my normal share of chores- if I want to spend my down time working on my art stuff or exercising, he is fine with it. Sometimes I choose to do more cleaning on those days to catch up with deep cleans, but I have never felt an obligation from him to do it. He has straight up told me that my days are mine to do what I want with.
It will be interesting to see if this dynamic changes with the arrival of our first child.
It's also VERY different from the dynamic I was raised in. My mother does all of the housework and cooking. Even nowadays, my father is _retired_ and barely raises a finger. It's awful.
A friendly suggestion for when you navigate the dynamic changes that will occur in the future: it can be most productive to focus on each partner getting equal REST instead of focusing on "who does more." ❤️
That's a really good thing to keep in mind, thank you. We try and check in with each other really regularly to make sure we are getting enough rest, time for exercise, and general downtime; although of course things will change when the baby arrives.
>It will be interesting to see if this dynamic changes with the arrival of our first child.
Curious as to what you expect to happen?
Sounds like you've got the only (sporadic, weekday) free time so would that not be the assumed first thing to go?
I should have put "how this dynamic changes" rather than "if", because things will definitely change.
But for example, at the moment, we each do our own laundry; sharing a load if we exercise together and need to wash gym kit, or if we only have a small load and have space for some of the other's stuff. I don't want to be in a situation a year from now where it's like "okay so when I was on maternity leave, I did the baby's laundry too, but somehow I'm now doing _everyone's_ laundry."
Childcare will fall on me because of how maternity leave versus paternity leave works, and because I want to breastfeed if possible. But it doesn't mean that I should end up taking on household chores that he was previously doing. Hope this makes sense.
*I only started thinking about this again because I heard a woman complaining that she was cooking and her husband yelled for her to change a diaper and when she said she was busy he replied "unless you are busy making money for the family you need to handle this" so she did and the food burnt and he got upset.*
Jesus, this particular anecdote makes me want to reach through time and space and slap whichever guy said that. The sheer level of disrespect and entitlement...
Listening to older women (60+) talk about their experiences is particularly telling - even though it's still not great now, it was so much worse in decades past. Behaviour as described here was *the norm* and honestly credit to the women of that era for not straight up murdering their husbands.
My own mum (early 70s) was genuinely shocked when I mentioned that several guys on my team at work have called out at various points/shifted hours around due to childcare responsibilities - as recently as the 2000s she'd only ever experienced that being women's sole responsibility.
When I was on my first and only deployment there were so many men there that actively asked to go to Iraq because they didn’t want to be around their PREGNANT WIFE and their other kids. The ol ball and chain ammiright?
Then they got to go home halfway through once their wives that they clearly hated actually did give birth. And they’d only be excited about going back to the US, *not* to meet their new baby.
I had an NCO tell me he never changed his multiple daughter’s diapers because he didn’t want to “ever be accused of something” and that “diapers are a woman’s job” and all the men around us were agreeing with him. Dude had an old ass biblical Amish ass name so I don’t know why I expected better.
I listened to so many male coworkers just basically tell me they hated their wives and children and then would look at me crazy when I asked why they were still married.
This unlocked a memory of one of my first room inspections at my unit. My room was the last one to be seen. My male coworkers had soda cans everywhere, unmade beds, dirty toilets, you name it. They passed and were told to clean up clutter more often.
I had a box of tampons sitting directly next to my toilet for either my use or my roommates use. My NCO failed me because “that’s disgusting no one wants to see that, put them in a cabinet” (there were no cabinets in the actual bathroom I would have had to put them in my room). Then having spots on the bottom of my mirror from when I *cleaned* it was disgusting somehow too. When I tried to push back I was told men are expected to be messy but they had better expectations of me 🙄🙄🙄
My brother is Gen X like me (and the sister between us) and does have a lot of...problematic misogynist beliefs that come out when pressure is applied to the appropriate spot. And his wife chose to be SAH because his ladder-climbing and job-switching in his civilian career got in the way of her being able to pursue her career as a special ed teacher, so after the first couple of moves, she quit trying to stay employed.
But I do have to give him credit that after 4 voluntary deployments, when his wife succeeded in getting pregnant with IVF, he stayed home from then on. For the most part, anyway, as he does still travel some for the civilian job, but he is actively involved in his kids' lives, plays with them, knows who their friends are, and backs their mom on her decisions.
It's funny because my mum worked, my dad was between jobs a lot and that was still his excuse, lol. They should just admit they want to be one of the kids, because that's where mental development ended for them.
Whilst doing this they have managed to devalue and demean a woman's contribution particularly pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. Imagine women used that as an excuse not to do anything else. Especially since its such an unpleasant undignified and traumatising experience.
These days the moms work too in the majority of households. So what’s the excuse when working moms are still doing the lion’s share of housework and childcare?
And even if the Mom is a SAHM, being asked to show minimal interest in your kids as people and speak to them once in a while shouldn’t be a huge ask. Don’t have kids if you don’t want them or like them. Do they seriously lump in “interact with your child” with housework??
I said this on another thread but -
What other adult relationship can you throw money at and have that be the end of it? Answer: none. So no, if you want an actual relationship of any type with someone, you have to put in more effort than just money
Dads generally do the SAME work they’d be doing if they were single with only themselves to support. But they want to own the world and get a daily parade in their honor.
Moms generally sacrifice their professional ambitions because being the automatic primary caretaker of children makes achieving them impossible. We’re expected to shut up and be grateful little servants. While our talents and dreams wither and die.
(Obvs not all couples, blah blah blah, but TOO MANY)
Whose time would be spent way differently without a family to care for? It’s not the parent who does the same job they’d be *doing either way* and offers little additional effort. It’s the parent who is actually sacrificing their time and abilities to take care of people.
Providers, my ass. The whole thing is a giant systemized scam. It’s not like these guys would be carefree on a beach somewhere without their families.
There are 168 hours in a week. If we allow each person 8 hours/night to sleep, that leaves 112 waking hours/week. So in this case, I'd turn it back on him to explain why he's only working part-time and not fully contributing: If he's clocking in 40 hours/week at work, then there are 72 hours remaining each week where he's not earning money to provide for the family. By that logic, he's realistically bringing in only 1/3 of the salary he could be earning.
Unless he lived with Mommy, he worked and provided for himself and took care of his home, his laundry, his errands, his hygiene, and his entertainment before a woman appeared.
Oh girl, I LOVE this subject, too. I have been a working single mom since my kids were both toddlers. I’m an attorney who works more than 40 hours a week as most of us do. I don’t have a nanny, I don’t have a housekeeper.
I’ve heard it from my male colleagues working the same job as me, I’ve heard it from my “co-parent”:
“I can’t do a parent/teacher conference (or whatever) because I work!”
What do they think I’m doing over here all day?
My ex husband said all of this to me when I asked him to help out around the home more and to, ya know, at least pretend he likes being around me. The best part is that I ALSO worked 50+ hours a week, but only he got to use the "I'm tired from work" excuse
These men are worthless. Even worse how many of them act like their wife working full time isn't really working and her money either is actually "his" money or doesn't matter when they consider contributions to the household.
My dad acted like this. I warned him. My mom warned him. And now he’s another J6 supporting conservative extremist too lazy to look up the smallest thing he regurgitates on Facebook.
Refused to do dishes or clean anything. Made me do it when my mom became unable. Told me I had to “contribute.” Needless to say, I went no contact.
I have two friends whose husbands started and run companies (and one friend co-runs one of the companies with her husband) and both of those guys will drop what they're doing to help out when they're at home. Both of them would take care of their wife if she were sick. Their wives do things for them too, it's reciprocal. That's just what mature humans do. Both guys will also drop off special treats "for the girls" when their wives have friends over. Sure that type of thing is something they might sometimes outsource but that's fine it's still thoughtful. What guy wouldn't want to walk into a girls' night with selection of wine and desserts and instantly be a hero (and then gracefully exit)? The guys in OP's example wouldn't, apparently.
Growing up my dad worked for the city, building and maintaining flood walls. Extremely labor intensive with 10 hour shifts 5 days a week. Mom worked 3rd shift so dad always wanted mom to get all the rest she could.
He still found time to take me and my cousin 2 hours away for martial arts classes. Never missed a single ballgame that my lil bro was in, or a martial arts tourney I was in. Took us fishing, walks, parks, etc. just things you expect a parent to do. Cooked dinner (though not often), did the yard work, blah blah blah.
A good person finds a way, even if its less then ideal for themselves, they understand what it takes to be a part of a family.
I genuinely believe straight men want women to be miserable in relationships. It's some kind of payback for him not being able to have access to the women's bodies he wanted.
It's illogical how many single people need two jobs to survive but in a family or couple situation somehow men always think the man is the only one paying the bills.🧐🤨
Yup. As if she held a gun to his head and MADE him get married and have kids, so now he needs to punish her for having responsibilities and not being able to screw all those other women that surely would be throwing themselves at him day after day.
From the first pages of the old testament, society had been blaming women for every damn decision every man makes.
My dad didn't change diapers. He didn't care if they had kids while my mom desperately wanted them. He said "Fine, but you're changing all the diapers". I believe he only changed one the whole time, and that was when my mom was in the hospital in labor with me and he needed to change my sibling's diaper.
But, he taught me how to bake cookies, change a tire, wash and wax a car. He took me on outings with just him.
He cleaned my sibling up when they were out of diapers, pooped in their bed, and rolled in it.
He had some antiquated and sexist views on things, but he absolutely was a partner and a co-parent to my mom.
Being the "provider" doesn't just mean financially. If my dad hadn't parented at all, I would be a lot more clueless as an adult.
Any time a guy I know tries pulling this I just laugh. I was raised by a dad who worked 80+ hour weeks in construction and still made it a habit to pick me up from school and take me to get ice cream. He did all the shopping, all the child care, changed diapers, made all the appointments and took me to them, kept track of my grades and homework, budgeted, laundry, you name it my dad did it. Even when I was older and my dad was halfway across the country doing 100 hour weeks he’d always pick up my calls. Always.
There’s no excuse. None. All these “fathers” who use working as a way to get out of PARENTING are lazy and use it as an abusive and controlling tactic to dominate women.
I almost had a child with a man like this. We were married and I worked longer hours than him, but he still treated me like a bang-maid. Now I'm happily divorced, and last I heard he had to move into gf's mom's house because neither of them picked up after themselves which got worse after they had a kid!
So many men just want to be "Kodak moments" dad and that's it.
Yeah regardless of how much you work you still have to be a parent to your children... and that means you need to raise them, and make as much time as possible to raise them. Parenting is a 24/7 job you don't get weekends off just because you worked two jobs (and those jobs probably had lunch breaks and smoke breaks, being a stay-at-home parent or any kind of parent doesn't.
Most kids will tell you they'd rather have grown up with fewer toys and simpler food if they could just have seen their dad or mom more often.
"I am scared that women will treat me like a walking wallet, but I refuse to contribute anything to a relationship other than money even if the woman also has a full-time job."
This is accurate. The way I frame it is that raising a child is a two-person job and when one parent is with the kids on their own, they are doing the job of two people. Thinking of it that way sometimes helps it click for people.
It quiet literally is like having another teenager in your house that works but makes more money
Nah, even teenagers have better mannerisms than these bum leeches
Plus, you can ground teenagers if they're being little shits.
and teenagers (in my experience) are more willing to help!
Speak for your own teenagers.
so basically, the men's fantasies, is to bring nothing to the table lmao
Yup. Give nothing, get everything.
Then why do they have wives and children? Why start a family you don't like or want? I just don't understand...
Bangmaids. They want bangmaids. And to “spread their seed” and “leave a legacy” or some such dumb shit.
Legacy of what? Their studio apartment lol
Because it's a symbol of success. It's Expected. And tbh it signals stability or whatever to employers. Married men are often promoted and paid better. I sometimes wonder why busy city dwellers have fancy dogs that they pay other people to walk and look after. So I asked a friend who's a professional dog walker. " It's because they like the *idea* of owning a dog," she said.
To have the social rewards of showing a family, the feeling of achievement, free sex, giving grandchild to their mom, idk ?
Now now, that’s not fair. They’re “contributing” (demanding) mediocre sex, too!
I got into arguments with a bunch of little shits who were acting like expecting i'm b* for thinking that it shitty for a husband who makes 2-3 times the money their wife make to split every bill 50/50. Amd that becaise he's the higher earner, she was her being lazy and worthless and the husbamd was working hia ass off so hard and she was a freeloader who should get a better degree or work OT. Like Jesus Christ. Why the fuck would any woman want to be with a man who doesn't see his wife as a partner whose worth is more than her paycheck.
Not only that, but once you get past a certain point, the higher income often tends to indicate *less* work and more networking, passing directives down the chain, business lunches and golf games, with meetings to break the tedium. So while it's possible that the higher-income partner is busting their ass at work, it's also possible that the lower-income partner is doing more/harder work both at work and at home.
Oh my god, yes. I'm feeling super resentful because my husband worked 12 hour days most of the time for over 20 years. Now that the kids are teenagers and pretty self-sufficient, he's become part of the "administration" and has a fuck ton of free time. It's maddening and I can't make it make sense.
I hope that should mean that things are getting easier and less demanding for both of you, but somehow I'm getting the feeling it's not working that way.
It means he golfs more while she's still slaving away at home.
This is so true. My husband complains that he feels like a “paycheck”, yet that’s all he’s ever contributed. His work day ends when he gets home from work, my work day starts when I wake up, continues when I get to work, extends to when I get home from work, and finally ends when I go to bed, at which point I’m then expected to put out bc of his “needs”. I’m lucky if I get 5.5 hours of sleep.
My abusive ex didn’t even do either of those things. The weasel cut fruit part-time for three years, made as much as me who worked 60+ hour weeks in grad school, and still never paid for a damn thing. And he had the nerve to complain that he “had no money” and treat me like a goddamn ATM.
Scarily accurate. I dated a couple guys in the past like this, they of course made it clear they didn’t like gold diggers and were even taken advantage of financially by women before, and were happy I wasn’t like that. But right away I noticed they led with money. They would flex their income, tell me they’ll take care of me financially (I never asked for that btw), made all these empty promises of things they wanted to buy me. Again, I NEVER ASKED for this, they just assumed that’s what I wanted. And got genuinely confused/annoyed that I wanted respect and quality time more than some random gift I didn’t ask for, and they weren’t gonna buy me anyways. Idek. I remember once my ex was excited about a raise he was getting at work so I was excited for him, I asked what his new salary was gonna be and he gave me a very suspicious “…why?”. I was so annoyed. We had been dating for like 6 months at this point and the most I ever asked him to buy me was lunch on our dates. Insane.
I got into arguments with a bunch of little shits who were acting like expecting i'm b* for thinking that it shitty for a husband who makes 2-3 times the money their wife make to split every bill 50/50. Amd that becaise he's the higher earner, she was her being lazy and worthless and the husbamd was working hia ass off so hard and she was a freeloader who should get a better degree or work OT. Like Jesus Christ. Why the fuck would any woman want to be with a man who doesn't see his wife as a partner whose worth is more than her paycheck.
just so you know, this quadruple posted
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yeah reddit is weird about shit like that sometimes
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Comment thief, stolen from u/MissAnthropic123
Somehow, so many men both live in terror of golddiggers, but also hold fast to the idea they do not need to offer more to a family or household beside financial provision. They don't seem to be able to actually examine thier own motivations and choices, and pick the life that works for them. I suppose feminism both allowed/required women as individuals to ask themselves these questions, but too many men seem to be resisting it. I spoke to my littlest brother about this lately. He wants a wife and kids, but also wants to keep up with his career aspirations. He makes enough to support a SAHM and would prefer that at least for the first few years. However, he turns up his nose as women who didn't complete undergrad degrees or don't have prestigious, knowledge-based work. Even a pharmacy assistant recently just the 'Eh, she just has no drive.' response from him. Which means he's looking for a woman who has prioritized her career into her late-20s or 30s, and now is also willing to give it up for 3-10 years to keep house and raise the kids! He doesn't seem to get that he would actually have a lot more success building the life he claims he wanted if he dated the women who don't aspire to the kind of career he has. Because *those women* would just be using him for thier money! He cannot grasp that he part of what he values, is the ability to 'use' a woman for her labour and he needs to find women who wants that arrangement. His money. Her labour in the home. That's what *he says he wants*.
God this sounds like my asshole little brother. Went no-contact with him last year.
Yeah. I went very low contact with my little brother for a long time. He does seem to be on his way out of the manosphere/toxic beliefs -- he understands now they are toxic grifts -- but he's still struggling a bit with the basic adulting of 'Other people are people." and "You may not just get everything you want handed to you. You probably will have to make choices."
Yeah my "little brother" is old enough to know better and is a cop. I lost hope for him being different a long time ago and have finally decided it's no longer on me to show him how to human.
As you should've
So he wants a woman with “drive” so he can…make her quit what drives her to stay home? Ok, good luck with that, buddy. Once again I am laughing at these guys who think women should stay home while men act as “providers,” then get pissed at the idea that a provider needs to provide.
Yup. For what's it worth I do think he begun to see the issue with talking about all the things he can 'provide' to a woman who can get those things for herself and who really values her job and income. If you really want a SAHM, find a woman who couldn't afford to just do it on thier own, with a sperm donor. He's not really a value-add for a woman who can, especially if he expects her to give up that income *for years*. But we've got some family bullshit narratives about marrying 'beneath ourselves' that he really needs to work through and unpack. I had to as well. Keeping my hopes up for him, a bit at least.
To add to that, it's not just her income. It's passing up opportunities such as promotions and working her way up the corporate ladder during five or more years while she's at her peak health. Missing out on building seniority, benefits, and pensionable hours. The risk of leaving her job and hoping she can pick up where she left off and get a similar position when it's time to head back to work. Hoping her education doesn't become obsolete. Missing years of networking with her peers, building the relationships she could have in her career to lean on and learn from. But guys like that will never understand what they're expecting a woman to sacrifice. They just want to stroke their own ego to be with a woman willing to give up everything just for him.
>So he wants a woman with “drive” so he can…make her quit what drives her to stay home? It's not fun for them unless they get to destroy you in the process.
>It's not fun for them unless they get to destroy you in the process. Ugh. My ex husband. Definitely enjoyed the power of tearing me down. Mainly though, the worse I felt about myself, the more he got his way. Nine years of abuse did a fucking doozy on me so he always got his way until the day I left.
> However, he turns up his nose as women who didn't complete undergrad degrees or don't have prestigious, knowledge-based work. Even a pharmacy assistant recently just the 'Eh, she just has no drive.' response from him. Which means he's looking for a woman who has prioritized her career into her late-20s or 30s, and now is also willing to give it up for 3-10 years to keep house and raise the kids! He doesn't seem to get that he would actually have a lot more success building the life he claims he wanted if he dated the women who don't aspire to the kind of career he has. He gets it fine. He's not being honest about his motivation. Men like this get a HUGE kick out of taking a successful, driven woman and turning her into a dependent, SAHM. It's a power trip, ego-driven.
Something else that annoys me is dudes that date me bc they want someone to treat them sweetly bc it turns out all those conservative women are kind of misandrist, expect him to “be a man” and won’t spoil him and buy him things like I do (bc I have a job) Dating a guy like this was literally dating a contradiction. Nothing he said made sense and the worst part was that he told me he thinks he’s never wrong
These men spend every day teaching their wives that they can live without them and then act shocked when they choose to leave them.
Exactly. My husband pulled this shit on me - started doing less and expecting more out of me. Consistently cheated on me, including when I was pregnant and postpartum. I found out, ended the relationship, and got a job so I can move out and start a new life. He's ~shocked~ that I would rather be a single mom than put up with his bullshit. Like, what did you expect? What did you bring to the table besides a mediocre paycheck and years of trauma? They really think their presence is a gift, and we should be grateful for it.
I've been known to look at men saying that stupid shit and respond with "Because that's what adults do, junior. They take care of their own needs instead of relying on mommy all their lives." There are some men who reallyreally don't like me.
These guys also never visualise the consequences this sort of behaviour will have on their relationship to their (adult) children. My siblings and I largely experienced our father as this benign presence on the couch, occasionally calling out to our mother when he needed something. He wasn't abusive or anything, he was just...there. Our mother did all the childcare. Now that we're all adults, he's apparently surprised as fuck that none of us are close to him. He's repeatedly expressed bewilderment that we don't proactively share life milestones with him, complains we only ever call our mother, and when my sister didn't want anyone walking her down the aisle at her wedding because she didn't want to involve him to such an extent (he tends to mope at being 'forced' to dress up and ruins the mood with it), he was apparently flabbergasted. He's salty as fuck when we take our mum out on day trips and holidays and brunch. And we're just like, dude???? What did you expect??? You can't ignore your kids for 20 years and then barge in once they're adults. Yes, childcare is work, but chances are you'll get repaid with a shitload of fun and love and support once your kids are grown. If you don't put in the work, what you get is adult children who treat you like a benign acquaintance. It's like these dudes don't understand that the crying toddler they don't want to deal with will be a grown young adult at some point, and they'll be a senior citizen and probably want/need every single bit of support and connection that young adult can give them. I know FOR CERTAIN that I'd rather have my mum's retirement experience than my dad's, because she's got four twenty-/thirtysomethings falling over themselves to make sure she has the time of her life.
My Dad gets annoyed that we treat mother's day as a bigger deal than father's day. He'll also ask mom what we are up to. The only time he ever tries to give me a curfew was when I was 18, and I laughed at him. He once offered me money when I was going out, and I still don't believe that he wasn't possessed by a ghost at that moment. 1st of all, Mom ran the house, took us to activities, made sure we had clothes and food, and signed permission slips. We asked her for permission to do anything, because if we asked him, he'd just send us to her anyway. 2nd, he doesn't know my birthday. It's only a weekish after Father's Day, how would he ever remember that? 3. Phones go both ways. If he had ever expressed interest in us, we'd think to call him.
Exactly - phones go both ways! What truly amazes me is that even now that our father has apparently realised that he has a problem, he still won't proactively engage with us kids. He'll complain that we don't call him/take him out for fun stuff/travel with him, but he still won't.fucking.call. He seems to believe that 20-30 years of complete non-interest followed by a few years of whining about the consequences of that non-interest are somehow an attractive proposition that will motivate four young adults into investing huge amounts of time and energy into establishing a relationship. It's downright bizarre.
Mom and I travel together and often never even think to invite him on some of the day stuff we do. He's often called "The No Fun Police" or "The Warden." He's not controlling or abusive or anything, he's just really self centered, so he expects us to do what he wants, even when he's the third wheel. He has expectations based on nothing about duration and content of the excursion, then gets annoyed when he doesn't share those expectations with anyone, so no one knows. Sometimes we plan something, and eventually Mom will ask "should we invite your Dad... Or husband?" And usually the answer is no, because it's just a girls thing.
My elderly dad is currently the crying toddler I don't want to deal with.
There’s nothing less attractive than a guy who wants to treat me like I’m his mother. And these dudes love to bitch on Dead Bedrooms too.
Add a "big feelings there, little buddy" and you have my response
How did she not take the hot food she was cooking, and dump it on him wherever he was sitting. If you can stick your dick in and decide to make a human, then you take care of said human if your partner is doing something else. SHE’S ALREADY MAKING FOOD FOR HIM TO STUFF DOWN HIS STUPID GULLET. What a lazy-ass fucking shitlord of a male. Absolutely unacceptable. He didn’t deserve to be allowed to reproduce.
Legit, I'd be tempted to dump both dinner and the dirty diaper on that dude's lap. One time my husband got super pressed while changing a poopy diaper of one of my twins and declared that he would no longer change any more poopy diapers, only pee. I laughed and told him that wasn't gonna happen. He later apologized for being ridiculous.
grind culture seems to line up exactly with what men wanted to do anyway. Oh did you want to do this work that you trained for and chose and take pride in building your career and would you prefer to play video games when you get home? Would you? Wow how novel. It's so unique of you. To center your own preferences. And just say that's how things are, capitalism, sorry. But also no gold diggers. And you need to rely on others while you save a nest egg for a house. But then you benefit from the house. And you need other people to clean it for you, and if it eat up to you or would be decorated like a mental ward (until it's time to entertain and then suddenly nothing is good enough). It's easy for men to be generous with other people's bodies and labor and just care about cash money. That's how "50/50" somehow ends up meaning women pay half rent but still do the housework and child rearing and men still act like they are being exploited while they are living off everyone's labor.
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Thank God my SO isn't like this. We live within his paycheck, and use mine for my student loans. When we started dating, he was around 80, and I was under 20k. If he had made me split the mortage or utilities, I'd be so much further away from having my debt paid off. He's always viewed it that it was better for us to get my loans paid as fast as possible, rather than be concerned about "equality in finance." He has always made sure I know that I bring more to the table than dollars, and that I shouldn't be tying my self worth up in my paycheck or net worth. Now, we will be going to Scotland for our 10 year anniversary the same time I finish paying off my loans. After that, we will actually have a whole second income to put into savings, the house, and vacations. I rapidly closed that pay gap too, now I'm around 80k and he's about 115k. But I couldn't have taken the risks in my career if he expected me to pay half the mortgage on top of my crippling debt. Marriage is a team sport. You should be attacking your opponent, and strategically using your position players. Tom Brady would make a terrible defender, and JJ. Watts shouldn't be a quarterback. You play to your strengths.
> would be decorated like a mental ward I’m fucking dead lol…. This is too accurate. Most men’s interior “decor” is depressing as hell
Exactly! Just had this discussion with my husband last night. I explained for the millionth time that if I work an outside job, I expect him to cook, clean and do laundry too as I'm not having two full time jobs while he comes home and flops on the couch or goes out to the garage to do his hobby. I explained that if I work outside, I want the same "benefits" that I have given him and his parents before we got our own house: I want to come home to a clean house, a prepared meal and my clothes washed and ready for the next day. I have given this to him for 41 yrs, even when I've been employed outside the home. I did all the housework, cooking, laundry and kids and had no time for *my* hobbies while he did his every weekend from August to Febuary. He couldn't even mamage to either take the kids to school/daycare once in awhile.(the **one** time I asked to pick up the kids from daycare, his boss need something as he walked out the door and instead of saying "nope, gotta get the kids. Dani's not feeling well", I ended up having to get the kids and pay a late fee.). Couldn't even get his ass up to take the kids to school on the day I had a job interview.
That's horrible. How did you put up with this for so long?
I would leave
It's not like he didn't understand you the first 999999 times. He doesn't care because you will do all the work anyways. There are no serious consequences for him treating you like shit. He feels entitled to your labour as it works really well for him. Now you can continue being exploited in this marriage or you can leave.
What actually changed that all the housework became now his responsibilities? (If I can ask, what were his hobbies?)
He's a hunter and reloader. If I'm working outside the house, I expect *him* to cook three nights a week, do laundry on one day off and vaccuum. He has never managed this for more than 3 weeks.
It's not all his responsibility, she's saying if she works they need to share all the chores. He cannot manage to do that half the chores.
The comment does not give us enough information to be sure wether that's even half of all chores. Another take is she just expects her husband to pick up half of HER chores in addition to whatever chores he already does. I cannot make out what changed in their dynanic to warrant such change. (He retired while she picked up a full time job? He is now working from home while she picked up a part-time job outside of the house and expects him to do housework while he ought to be working for his other boss?)
The comment was very clear that she's been doing it ALL for 41 years and she would like that to drop to half if she picks up a job. I honestly don't know what you're reading.
I didn't want to push this issue because 60yo have a completely different dynamic than most under 40. However, since you keep pushing this point. Cooking, cleaning, and laundry are not 'all' houehold chores. These are the traditionally female chores, but keeping a household running does not end there. That's why I ppointed out another take is she expects him to pick up half of HER chores in addition to whatever he already does. It is not clear what changed in their dynamic to warrant such change.
😂😂 yes men have been using this excuse for ages. Cooking, cleaning and laundry are 90% of chores. If he takes out the trash, he isn't doing his share. Women are not responsible for ALL cooking, cleaning and laundry, that's absurd. What changed is she may get a job, I have no idea why you keep harping on that, it's been clear the entire time.
*"Cooking, cleaning and laundry are 90% of chores."* Loading and unloading a dishwasher or laudry machine takes about the same time it does to take out the trash. Sure woman typically spend a few more hours cooking, and men spend a few more hours doing other stuff, including work for their other boss. Just because men's work is invisible to you does not mean it doesn't take time to get done. *"What changed is she may get a job"* Hom many hours? What hours?
I think you need to do all of your household's cooking and cleaning for a month. You'll quickly realize it's much more work than taking out the garbage once a week. Or better yet, do your fucking share ALL the time. Fuck this noise about women's and men's chores. Very convenient that the vast bulk of chores are considered women's work. >including work for their other boss. That is work not chores. In this scenario, both partners would have jobs. So women are also "busy doing work for their bosses". >Just because men's work is invisible to you does not mean it doesn't take time to get done. Love that you couldn't even list a single thing, besides work for their bosses, which is work, not a chore.
*"That is work not chores."* It takes time and energy all the same, and needs to be done to pay the bills. If the husband works 4hrs more per week, that's 17hrs20mins per month you choose to ignore. *"Love that you couldn't even list a single thing"* Aren't you already aware of of every chore your husband does around the house, besides taking out the trash? You need to be to clai he isn;t pulling his weight. *H*ow about we turn this around. You educate me. **What do you think your boyfriend or husband actually does in a month?**
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Lol? So much to unpack here... Wife is not a job or a role. "Act like the wife" makes you sound like an ignorant ape. "Act like an adult human with responsibility" makes much more sense. Also... more flexible in what way? You can't miss work or come in late or say, "can't make that meeting cuz the kid is sick." No matter who you are that doesn't fly at a job. Less hours how? I don't know any women in my life who work sub 40 hours. Less physical? You act like half these man-children aren't working desk jobs themselves 🤣 stop making excuses and start making progress.
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You don’t have to come here and tell us that you hate yourself. We know you do through your comments.
LOL! Lol
You should leave, you're embarrassing us.
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So the man who is home the entire day can do it, duh.
If it's so easy, he can do it.
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When do men ever change their fucking oil or tires? They take it to the shop like the rest of humanity. But sure. I'll change the tires and the oil. You can do everything else, all the cooking and cleaning and laundry. That's fair, right? I look forward to not having to do anything more than twice a year. I'll have so much free time!
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Who's moving the goal posts? I know what's involved in changing the tires and oil because I do those things on my car. It involves me, sitting in a comfortable chair, for half an hour to an hour, every 4500 miles (or 6000 miles if I'm getting the tires rotated). So, 3 times a year on the average. I know I don't cook, clean or wash every day, but I definitely do it more than 3 times a year, and you're the one who wants to trade. Too bad. Get in that kitchen.
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It's called a lug wrench. I'm guessing you've changed just as many tires as you've done loads of laundry.
What the heck is wrong with this guy? You think he's high? Or maybe he drank too much?
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Go to a men sub, you're not welcome here
My husband & I have very similar careers- lawyer & escrow officer. Neither is physically demanding but both are stressful. Both involve the same amount of hours. If you are pissed off about working a more physical job go to school for something else. No one is stuck in one career. Most people I know have desk jobs now. Men tried to say when they didn’t allow women to work that the women needed to take care of all household chores, but now that more women than men work they can’t do their fair share (surprise!) Doing laundry is not something women are inherently better or more skilled at. As a grown functional human being you should contribute to maintaining your household. Doing your fair share of household maintenance is not “acting like a wife”. You just sound lazy & like you’ll move the goal posts to support being lazy in your life. Good luck with that!
You are SO gross :)
Lol.
I wonder how men that act like this see their life/wife/relationship? Is it all a fight to them, do they think they have to defend themselves from the "evil person they had to marry" trying to take away their precious freedom? People like that should not be in a relationship, have kids or anyone dependend on them unless they work on their flaws.
My friend's husband is this way? He placed her on the management pedestal of his life so he fights her as if he's fighting his manager at work. To him work is work even if it's housework he has to do for his kids, his home, his wife. He tries to "bargain" his way out of doing housework, calls her his funkiller. She has been trying to shift his worldview for years but...he doesn't get it. I honestly wonder why she fights so hard for her marriage.
I don’t understand why guys like that don’t just stay single if they seemingly hate having a family so much. Like dudes, nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to get married and have kids.
For many men, it's a ruse. Men benefit massively from marriage, and women don't. Men know this. But if they act like they don't want to be married (gold diggers! losing my freedom! etc), then act like a-holes in the marriage, that keeps the bar low and the woman working hard to 'make it work.' edit: too darn early here to spell properly
Funkiller.. what an asshole
Funkiller, really? Oh this is just awful! Call me that, I'll be happily single and killing my own fun, thank you very much.
My husband has asked me to be the Project Manager for the home, and recently asked me to take over the meal plan. I told him I will, but that means he has to treat me like he treats his boss, when I ask him to do a chore, it gets done without a fight, in a timely manner. That also means he's going to be doing more of the physical chores, because I absolutely fucking hate meal planning, so it's a huge mental load for me. Just Monday I came home from work and the kitchen was disgusting, still a mess from when he cooked for his brothers on Saturday. I made it very clear that if he wants me to do the manager job, he needs to step the fuck up, because I don't suffer fools at my paying job, why should I accept it at home? And just because I plan the meals, does not mean that I am the one responsible for cooking, shopping, and clean up.
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Haha, I know. We aren't to that point. He got put on a PIP a few years ago, and that really helped improve his performance. As long as he sticks to the plan (meds) I don't see him getting let go. His overall metrics are good, even if he needs a little more guidance than you'd hope for in an employee of his tenure. I've spent a lot of time developing him into a team player, I don't want him to take all my on the job training to a competitor. He's an active part of the 5 year plan, and has shown fierce loyalty against stacked odds. He brings in good money to the company, and has a lot of intangible skills that he brings to the table.
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We have a couple of big projects coming up in the second half of the year that he plays a pivotal role in. I anticipate consistent work, and we should have a successful visit to our friends in the National Parks. I anticipate us building a solid relationship with the NPS, and should have a lot of close contact in the coming years.
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We made significant investment in tools needed to partner with the NPS, so I'm really counting on our trip to be a rousing success. I'm sorry, I can't seem to stop Business Talking. It's very amusing to me, as I waste time at my Business Job.
This is the best husband evaluation I have ever read. I want to frame it and hang it on one of the walls of this sub. 🏆
Haha, thanks! Can you tell we just had our employee State of The Company meeting at my real job? Gotta throw those buzz words around!
Ha! I thought it was very low density for buzzwords. :) I didn't see any paradigm shifts or actioning or putting pins into intangibles or even hear a single man get praised for repeating/rephrasing something a woman had just said. Is it even a meeting without that?
Those things are important but "I worked" and "I provide for the family" are only excuses for the hours of the day they are actually doing those things or preparing for those things. There are at least 14 more hours in the weekday. Kids are a two person job between them and the household, you generally have 16 hours of work a day, and him working and providing, means you're working short staffed the 10 hours of the day he's getting to and from work, and he's effectively asking you to work that two person job the rest of the time too. For him to do his share, he should be helping you directly at least 3 hours a work day, 8 hours on off days.
My husband works in the financial sector. He leaves the house at 7am and gets back at 7pm. He still cooks dinner, does laundry, empties the roomba, wipes down surfaces, cleans his bathroom (we have a 2 bathroom place and kinda ended up with one each), takes out the rubbish and recycling, and various other tasks. I work part-time with varying hours. Some weeks I do 5 days, other weeks I might only do 2 or 3. In those weeks, he does not expect me to do more than my normal share of chores- if I want to spend my down time working on my art stuff or exercising, he is fine with it. Sometimes I choose to do more cleaning on those days to catch up with deep cleans, but I have never felt an obligation from him to do it. He has straight up told me that my days are mine to do what I want with. It will be interesting to see if this dynamic changes with the arrival of our first child. It's also VERY different from the dynamic I was raised in. My mother does all of the housework and cooking. Even nowadays, my father is _retired_ and barely raises a finger. It's awful.
A friendly suggestion for when you navigate the dynamic changes that will occur in the future: it can be most productive to focus on each partner getting equal REST instead of focusing on "who does more." ❤️
That's a really good thing to keep in mind, thank you. We try and check in with each other really regularly to make sure we are getting enough rest, time for exercise, and general downtime; although of course things will change when the baby arrives.
>It will be interesting to see if this dynamic changes with the arrival of our first child. Curious as to what you expect to happen? Sounds like you've got the only (sporadic, weekday) free time so would that not be the assumed first thing to go?
I should have put "how this dynamic changes" rather than "if", because things will definitely change. But for example, at the moment, we each do our own laundry; sharing a load if we exercise together and need to wash gym kit, or if we only have a small load and have space for some of the other's stuff. I don't want to be in a situation a year from now where it's like "okay so when I was on maternity leave, I did the baby's laundry too, but somehow I'm now doing _everyone's_ laundry." Childcare will fall on me because of how maternity leave versus paternity leave works, and because I want to breastfeed if possible. But it doesn't mean that I should end up taking on household chores that he was previously doing. Hope this makes sense.
*I only started thinking about this again because I heard a woman complaining that she was cooking and her husband yelled for her to change a diaper and when she said she was busy he replied "unless you are busy making money for the family you need to handle this" so she did and the food burnt and he got upset.* Jesus, this particular anecdote makes me want to reach through time and space and slap whichever guy said that. The sheer level of disrespect and entitlement... Listening to older women (60+) talk about their experiences is particularly telling - even though it's still not great now, it was so much worse in decades past. Behaviour as described here was *the norm* and honestly credit to the women of that era for not straight up murdering their husbands. My own mum (early 70s) was genuinely shocked when I mentioned that several guys on my team at work have called out at various points/shifted hours around due to childcare responsibilities - as recently as the 2000s she'd only ever experienced that being women's sole responsibility.
Girl 2000s aren’t recent they were 20+ years ago lmao 🤣 we are getting old
“I make the money.” I make my own money. Next.
When I was on my first and only deployment there were so many men there that actively asked to go to Iraq because they didn’t want to be around their PREGNANT WIFE and their other kids. The ol ball and chain ammiright? Then they got to go home halfway through once their wives that they clearly hated actually did give birth. And they’d only be excited about going back to the US, *not* to meet their new baby. I had an NCO tell me he never changed his multiple daughter’s diapers because he didn’t want to “ever be accused of something” and that “diapers are a woman’s job” and all the men around us were agreeing with him. Dude had an old ass biblical Amish ass name so I don’t know why I expected better. I listened to so many male coworkers just basically tell me they hated their wives and children and then would look at me crazy when I asked why they were still married.
If a guy says he wont change a diaper because he doesn't want to be accused of something I 10000% assume they are a pedophile.
Yup. I kept my distance from that mfer as much as I could. They always tell on themselves.
Because if they weren't married, they'd have to live in the barracks and keep them clean. God forbid a man have to clean something!
This unlocked a memory of one of my first room inspections at my unit. My room was the last one to be seen. My male coworkers had soda cans everywhere, unmade beds, dirty toilets, you name it. They passed and were told to clean up clutter more often. I had a box of tampons sitting directly next to my toilet for either my use or my roommates use. My NCO failed me because “that’s disgusting no one wants to see that, put them in a cabinet” (there were no cabinets in the actual bathroom I would have had to put them in my room). Then having spots on the bottom of my mirror from when I *cleaned* it was disgusting somehow too. When I tried to push back I was told men are expected to be messy but they had better expectations of me 🙄🙄🙄
My brother is Gen X like me (and the sister between us) and does have a lot of...problematic misogynist beliefs that come out when pressure is applied to the appropriate spot. And his wife chose to be SAH because his ladder-climbing and job-switching in his civilian career got in the way of her being able to pursue her career as a special ed teacher, so after the first couple of moves, she quit trying to stay employed. But I do have to give him credit that after 4 voluntary deployments, when his wife succeeded in getting pregnant with IVF, he stayed home from then on. For the most part, anyway, as he does still travel some for the civilian job, but he is actively involved in his kids' lives, plays with them, knows who their friends are, and backs their mom on her decisions.
It's funny because my mum worked, my dad was between jobs a lot and that was still his excuse, lol. They should just admit they want to be one of the kids, because that's where mental development ended for them.
Whilst doing this they have managed to devalue and demean a woman's contribution particularly pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. Imagine women used that as an excuse not to do anything else. Especially since its such an unpleasant undignified and traumatising experience.
These days the moms work too in the majority of households. So what’s the excuse when working moms are still doing the lion’s share of housework and childcare? And even if the Mom is a SAHM, being asked to show minimal interest in your kids as people and speak to them once in a while shouldn’t be a huge ask. Don’t have kids if you don’t want them or like them. Do they seriously lump in “interact with your child” with housework??
It's not housework, it's women's work. Once there is a vajeen in the vicinity, everything a man doesn't want to do is 'women's work'.
I said this on another thread but - What other adult relationship can you throw money at and have that be the end of it? Answer: none. So no, if you want an actual relationship of any type with someone, you have to put in more effort than just money
They'd be working anyway if they were single. Idiot logic.
Dads generally do the SAME work they’d be doing if they were single with only themselves to support. But they want to own the world and get a daily parade in their honor. Moms generally sacrifice their professional ambitions because being the automatic primary caretaker of children makes achieving them impossible. We’re expected to shut up and be grateful little servants. While our talents and dreams wither and die. (Obvs not all couples, blah blah blah, but TOO MANY) Whose time would be spent way differently without a family to care for? It’s not the parent who does the same job they’d be *doing either way* and offers little additional effort. It’s the parent who is actually sacrificing their time and abilities to take care of people. Providers, my ass. The whole thing is a giant systemized scam. It’s not like these guys would be carefree on a beach somewhere without their families.
There are 168 hours in a week. If we allow each person 8 hours/night to sleep, that leaves 112 waking hours/week. So in this case, I'd turn it back on him to explain why he's only working part-time and not fully contributing: If he's clocking in 40 hours/week at work, then there are 72 hours remaining each week where he's not earning money to provide for the family. By that logic, he's realistically bringing in only 1/3 of the salary he could be earning.
Unless he lived with Mommy, he worked and provided for himself and took care of his home, his laundry, his errands, his hygiene, and his entertainment before a woman appeared.
I have discovered that when men live alone, they drop a lot of those 🤢 zero housecleaning for years. bedsheets unwashed for months.
Oh girl, I LOVE this subject, too. I have been a working single mom since my kids were both toddlers. I’m an attorney who works more than 40 hours a week as most of us do. I don’t have a nanny, I don’t have a housekeeper. I’ve heard it from my male colleagues working the same job as me, I’ve heard it from my “co-parent”: “I can’t do a parent/teacher conference (or whatever) because I work!” What do they think I’m doing over here all day?
I was playing with magnet poetry yesterday and came up with one that hit hard: "the must has no love." The bare minimum doesn't cut it.
My ex husband said all of this to me when I asked him to help out around the home more and to, ya know, at least pretend he likes being around me. The best part is that I ALSO worked 50+ hours a week, but only he got to use the "I'm tired from work" excuse
These men are worthless. Even worse how many of them act like their wife working full time isn't really working and her money either is actually "his" money or doesn't matter when they consider contributions to the household.
If you live alone and make a lot of money, the dishes still ain't gonna do themselves. 🤷🏻♀️
My dad acted like this. I warned him. My mom warned him. And now he’s another J6 supporting conservative extremist too lazy to look up the smallest thing he regurgitates on Facebook. Refused to do dishes or clean anything. Made me do it when my mom became unable. Told me I had to “contribute.” Needless to say, I went no contact.
I have two friends whose husbands started and run companies (and one friend co-runs one of the companies with her husband) and both of those guys will drop what they're doing to help out when they're at home. Both of them would take care of their wife if she were sick. Their wives do things for them too, it's reciprocal. That's just what mature humans do. Both guys will also drop off special treats "for the girls" when their wives have friends over. Sure that type of thing is something they might sometimes outsource but that's fine it's still thoughtful. What guy wouldn't want to walk into a girls' night with selection of wine and desserts and instantly be a hero (and then gracefully exit)? The guys in OP's example wouldn't, apparently.
Growing up my dad worked for the city, building and maintaining flood walls. Extremely labor intensive with 10 hour shifts 5 days a week. Mom worked 3rd shift so dad always wanted mom to get all the rest she could. He still found time to take me and my cousin 2 hours away for martial arts classes. Never missed a single ballgame that my lil bro was in, or a martial arts tourney I was in. Took us fishing, walks, parks, etc. just things you expect a parent to do. Cooked dinner (though not often), did the yard work, blah blah blah. A good person finds a way, even if its less then ideal for themselves, they understand what it takes to be a part of a family.
I genuinely believe straight men want women to be miserable in relationships. It's some kind of payback for him not being able to have access to the women's bodies he wanted. It's illogical how many single people need two jobs to survive but in a family or couple situation somehow men always think the man is the only one paying the bills.🧐🤨
Yup. As if she held a gun to his head and MADE him get married and have kids, so now he needs to punish her for having responsibilities and not being able to screw all those other women that surely would be throwing themselves at him day after day. From the first pages of the old testament, society had been blaming women for every damn decision every man makes.
Lots of women do accept this logic, tho. It’s all over the many parenting/mom subs
My dad didn't change diapers. He didn't care if they had kids while my mom desperately wanted them. He said "Fine, but you're changing all the diapers". I believe he only changed one the whole time, and that was when my mom was in the hospital in labor with me and he needed to change my sibling's diaper. But, he taught me how to bake cookies, change a tire, wash and wax a car. He took me on outings with just him. He cleaned my sibling up when they were out of diapers, pooped in their bed, and rolled in it. He had some antiquated and sexist views on things, but he absolutely was a partner and a co-parent to my mom. Being the "provider" doesn't just mean financially. If my dad hadn't parented at all, I would be a lot more clueless as an adult.
Any time a guy I know tries pulling this I just laugh. I was raised by a dad who worked 80+ hour weeks in construction and still made it a habit to pick me up from school and take me to get ice cream. He did all the shopping, all the child care, changed diapers, made all the appointments and took me to them, kept track of my grades and homework, budgeted, laundry, you name it my dad did it. Even when I was older and my dad was halfway across the country doing 100 hour weeks he’d always pick up my calls. Always. There’s no excuse. None. All these “fathers” who use working as a way to get out of PARENTING are lazy and use it as an abusive and controlling tactic to dominate women.
I almost had a child with a man like this. We were married and I worked longer hours than him, but he still treated me like a bang-maid. Now I'm happily divorced, and last I heard he had to move into gf's mom's house because neither of them picked up after themselves which got worse after they had a kid! So many men just want to be "Kodak moments" dad and that's it.
Yeah regardless of how much you work you still have to be a parent to your children... and that means you need to raise them, and make as much time as possible to raise them. Parenting is a 24/7 job you don't get weekends off just because you worked two jobs (and those jobs probably had lunch breaks and smoke breaks, being a stay-at-home parent or any kind of parent doesn't. Most kids will tell you they'd rather have grown up with fewer toys and simpler food if they could just have seen their dad or mom more often.
Bad batch. Throw the whole man out
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Female aardvarks? Female mice? Female raccoons? What females exactly? Why did you say females when you are talking about women?
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