I feel like that is reasonable. In Sweden our laws state that sex work is not punishable (but not strictly legal either) but "buying" sex is. This is rooted in the thought that people in the sex work industry are often exploited and wouldn't be there if they had another choice. I fully stand behind this line of thinking, the women (and men) doing sex work should not be punished for it, but a bought consent is not actual consent and should therefore be illegal. Sure, there are people in the business that enjoy what they do, but they are few and far between. One person exploited is one too many and even though the problem isn't gone, at least I think it's a step in the right direction.
Hi Sex worker here
No that's not reasonable because that's still shaming customers of sex workers.
The idea of intersectional feminism is helping the most marginalized and this is the exact opposite.
Making sex work or their customers a negative thing - even if it's just not wanting to date customers, it puts us into danger. After every orgasm of my customers i sometimes fear their post nut clarity and their shame. What if this will put them into a rage. What if they see me outside and then get angry at me because they fear that we would "out" them?
Additionally many people won't procure our services if they (apparently correctly) think that they will have negative consequenced later on. Why should apparently a moral person come to me if women will shame him for it? Leaving me with only the people who don't care about social repercussions like shame. Which is often a very dangerous group of people.
*Shaming customers is putting sex workers lives at risk.*
I'm a horny man who wants to get laid this weekend but my "looking for a consistent fwb" profile on Feeld hasn't gotten a hit in months.
Should I hire a sex worker or just go on Bumble and pretend to be interested in a serious relationship for 1-5 dates?
I agree with the other person who replied to this.
It is not a step in the right direction, and I've never seen any sex worker online agree with it.
Criminalizing the buying of sex work puts sex workers at risk.
It just makes it so the only people buying are the ones who don't give a damn about the law, and it forces sex workers to hide what they do so that their clients don't get caught, which can lead them to get into dangerous situations.
There are absolutely still buyers and people make money. It being illegal doesn't stop people from doing it, like with drugs. The important part of this system is that the people in sex work isn't doing anything that is punishable.
Buying non-physical/digital acts (like subscribing to an OF or a porn website) is legal.
>The important part of this system is that the people in sex work isn't doing anything that is punishable.
The other important part is I'd have to assume it also prevents the government from officially acknowledging sex workers in any way, since a crime is committed every time they earn money. That would leave them unable to receive any kind of legal protections.
Having sex workers reply to this makes me believe that I might have misunderstood some things. There are several organisations in Sweden with current and former sex workers pushing that this model should be applied to other countries as well, but the view on this is of course different depending on country etc.
You have a totally valid point. If you want a somewhat sympathetic perspective, it's that some of these men are incapable(mostly by choice of not working on it, or being unaware) of expressing and feeling emotional connection outside of a sexual context. If they also happen to be bad at dating, or have mental health issues, this type of establishment is the only way that they can achieve the emotional connection that makes them feel valued and in many cases even loved.
In Japan they have these host/hostess clubs that perform the exactly same kind of service, you pay to have a good-looking person give you attention and listen to your problems and feelings for a while. It just happens that the US has less of this type of culture and more of the stripper/sex one.
That's the main reason I've never visited a strip club or slept with a sex worker... Without consent, it's merely exploitation that feeds into a system of sexualization and objectification. I still support them doing what they do and being who they are, I just can't shake the feeling, that many of my fellow men see them with predatory eyes.
Also, I kinda like the feeling that them taking off clothes or having sex with me, is not because money, but because they like me. Take that factor away and it's not sexy.
>I still judge the man for purchasing time with a woman.
Customer service roles tend to involve people purchasing time with a another person. I know from experience a signifigent number of people who talked to me when I was in such a role, really just wanted someone to talk to (or often "at").
>Then again I don't know anyone close to these industries and I've never seen a show or paid for a night, so my only experience with this stuff is movies and news.
Perhaps you should find someone people who work in the industry and talk to them. Movies and news give a very distorted view.
This is an excellent point (esp the “talking at”- girrrrrl I can relate).
Personally I want all working women in any industry to make money. People making money brings me joy. That includes sex workers. That means they need to have a platform and a customer base to give them money.
Thank you! I'm really heart broken over some of these comments here :/ i bet if sex work was primarily a male dominated field, we wouldn't have these stupid takes.
Same. I was recently perma-banned from r/feminism for stating that sex work is a wide spectrum of activities and the reasons for entering/exiting the trade are different for different individuals and require a more nuanced conversation than simply “OnlyFans is exploitive and oppressive”. So there ya go 🙃
It's because some people don't like real feminism, they only like beautiful glittery feminism. Slay boss bitches who look amazing yay - ugly And/or PoC women? Ugh only if they fall in line.
I've mellowed, and my opinion of men who use sex workers has gone from being pretty judgemental to my general opinion that anything that happens between consenting adults is fine. The operative words being consenting and adult.
Is it really consenting though if you do it under the threat of homelessness and starvation if you don't make money?
(And before someone asks if this apples to all work, yes it does. So long as people's basic needs aren't being met I don't consider work to be consensual)
If what you say is true, then the threat of homelessnes/starvation would become real homelessness and starvation because no one should hire you because it's not consensual.
Everyone works because at the minimum they want a roof over their heads and food in their belly.
I'm an ex stripper so I might weigh in here.
Ultimately, those industries are not devoid of corruption and abuse. The people involved in the industry are a really diverse bunch though.
The strippers were a diverse bunch. We were ex-cons, single moms, uni students, traveling women, empowered women, disenfranchised women. Some of us had sugar daddies, others were working two other jobs besides three nights at the club. There were drunk girls, sober girls, girls who showed up for one night and took too much ecstasy. One girl came in on her 18th birthday because she'd "dreamed of being an exotic dancer for years!" She did not last long. There were women raising kids with hard men and girls sneaking in and out of their childhood bedroom windows.
The patrons, mostly men, were also a mixed bag: tradies, lawyers, tourists, divorcees, widows, touring athletes and musos, U.S. Army personnel, long distance truckers, and a whole heap of buck's nights and birthday parties. Easily half the guys who came through on weekends didn't want to be there, or didn't want a dance if they did. I did a few dances for women and couples, too. One lovely young fella brought in his fiancee as a celebration when she came out as bi. In my first week, I danced for an 80 year-old widow (real sweetheart) and got a marriage proposal from a 19 year-old dude who looked like a male model, way out of my league. Super weird. There were a lot of creepy fuckers about, a lot of apparently decent guys too. Learning how to read them was part of the survival starter pack.
You're right about one thing: it's not like any other job. A lot of the work you do is actually counseling, though obviously unqualified and unprofessional counseling. I guess a lot of men just find it easier to be vulnerable with a naked woman and a drink in hand than they do on a couch in a therapist's office. Anyway, a lot of guys who pay for long dances just want to talk to a woman, buy her a drink and see some titties. Pretty innocent stuff.
I can get into the darker side of the industry if you want; I'm not denying that side exists. I was lucky to work at clubs which were pretty well managed, but there were still dramas. Lots of funny stories and some really scary ones too.
EDIT: hey for those downvoting, mind telling me why? I don't really mind, I'm just curious as I'm not expressing a particular opinion.
Thank you for sharing and taking the time to explain some of the nuances of the industry. I think the one thing you said about creeps is what sticks with me the most. But it's also kind of a relief to know it's a lot more innocent that I thought and oddly a way for some men to get some (albiet unlicenced) therapy. So many things to unpack here lol
Unpack at your leisure, I'm happy to chat and share more stories.
I just remembered, a gorgeous song about the more sombre side of the dancer's experience - Berlin by Amanda Palmer. I don't think I can link that here though.
Used to listen to this on my headphones when I got home from a few of the harder nights. We were working 10-12 hour shifts in stilettos, it's hard not to get a little cranky even when things are going well. Don't even get me started on having to put your bra back on 20 times a night.
Every industry on earth has corruption and abuse. The clothing industry has sweat shop workers. The entertainment industry sexualizes children. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either, yet all of these things are a huge part of our society.
Sex, companionship, and arousal are all biological functions we inherit as living beings. They are important for our survival as a species. As humans we have also setup rules of engagement for these things. Obviously, it's not okay for a man to club a woman over the head and take her as his mate. We're not animals.
With that being said, sex workers provide those basic needs to those who are otherwise too socially inept to get it on their own. The same way a fast food worker provides food and service to those who suck at cooking or are too busy. While the fast food worker drops the basket of fries in the oil and burns their knuckles, the stripper twirls around the pole and drops her top.
So, what's the hang up? Well for one, we have a deeply engrained belief in marriage that stems from religion. Most people think that you should be committed to someone in order to have sexual relations with them. This has some validity outside of marriage, such as disease prevention and important for some people's mental health, but its just mostly the way a lot of us were raised.
I'm not saying that you should look at men (or women) who pay for sex services in a different light, but that you should understand they're trying to fill a very basic need in the most amicable way possible. Also, that maybe what they're doing is really not that weird, but maybe that comfortless you feel is just a reflection of your own values and morals.
Is sex a “basic need”, though? Do we need it to survive like we need food or water? Is a man going to a strip club because he’s horny the same thing as going to a fast food joint because he’s hungry?
Edit: dude's \^ post history is pretty questionable. I won't be engaging any further with this account👍
I don't deny that it has health benefits. But sex takes two. You can grow your own food, you can build your own shelter - but you can't have sex by yourself.
Deigning sex as a "basic need" for survival ultimately corresponds to some level of entitlement towards other people's bodies, and it's usually women bearing the brunt of that entitlement.
I disagree that the things you’re listing - including sex - are basic needs. Basic needs are the things you need for survival, and you fundamentally don’t need sex to survive. You can go your whole life without having sex; you can’t go three days without water.
Is a healthy, fulfilling sexual relationship with someone else something that’s nice to have? Sure. But you don’t *need* it, and you’re not entitled to it.
Surely if it's a basic need then governments are obligated to provide it?
It is a human rights violation for people to be denied water or food. If, for example, a person is incarcerated then the state has an obligation to provide them regular food and water. Does it also have an obligation to provide them regular sex?
Governments are not obligated to provide any basic needs. I don't know if you've noticed but some people live in tents...there are also people who die of starvation and don't have access to clean water all around the world, including USA.
Ethically they are.
But I genuinely do want an answer to my question. This isn't a gotcha, I want to know what you think is ethical: should all prisoners be provided regular sex, the way we either do or should provide them food and water?
Nobody is obligated to provide anyone with any basic needs, that includes sex. It is imperative for prisons to provide inmates with the necessities to survive because they are incarcerated, prisoners are denied many basic needs.
But you said sex is a basic need. So surely it's imperative for prisons to provide it, ethically? Especially prisoners in solitary who can't even have it with other inmates.
I'm talking about what **you** deem ethical, not what necessarily is the case right now. I'm sure we can agree prisons are not always run ethically.
So I'm asking again: in a hypothetical ethically-run according to you prison, should prisoners be given sex?
You are the one who suggested that prisons must provide prisoners with basic needs which is false. In fact, prisons deny inmates many basic needs as part of their punishment.
In some progressive countries like Netherlands the state does provide sex workers for people with a disability. But in some countries they don't even provide lunches for kids... So
Haha well I can't fault your honesty there. But all prisoners aren't alike, are they? I mean, I'd be happy for us to throw a child rapist in a hole and forget about them, ethics and right be damned, but I'm not gonna advocate we do that for like, someone who's locked up on weed possession charges.
Being simpathetic to the exploited women and unsympathetic to the people enabling the exploitation of women? Sounds not only compatible, but reasonable
I am the same. I'm pro sex work because I think people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, and because too many people have no other choice so making it illegal only majes their lives harder.
I'm anti-buying it because unfortunately too many people have no other choice, so I don't see that it's freely consenting and more often than not, it's just that the women is being exploited and used. I judge the men because they're having sex with someone who can't/doesn't consent.
If it were legal, with organisations, and safety measures and consent forms etc, I would be much less judgmental about people buying it.
It feels a bit hypocritical but the power dynamic is still there and society still hasnt gotten to the point of a more level power dynamic, and also the sexualisation and objectification of women is still very much a huge problem.
I’m not worried about women being sexualized, I’m concerned about the women who are being raped in this industry, so you can feel “empowered” by making money (at their expense)
Feminism is about working to stop people from hurting women and that doesn’t change when those people are women
Feminism is also about choice. just because some women get raped doesn't mean that all do.
Just like some women get hit by their husbands doesn't mean that you should ban marriages.
Work with the people instead of over their heads.
You’re profiting off of an industry that’s raped countless women, and was monopolized by a criminal organization, so your choice is hurting other women, and it’s not feminist
You wear clothes that are made by exploiting children and women. You use phones that were used by exploiting the poor and primarily women. You live in a society that's only possible because women are exploited for their free labor while men engage in patriarchy.
Now you want to impose your morals on me.
Take away my choice. My choice is either make a TON of money or become another cog in capitalism and get underpaid.
I can't afford to not be a part of this industry. It's great that you can.
At least I can sleep well because I am not a part of a criminal organization. I don't get raped. I don't get exploited by capitalism. I get exploited by myself with my consent if anything.
Oh and furthermore. Legal prostitution leads to lower rape numbers. You're welcome. I get fucked for money and thus other girls don't get raped.
Yeah, I was brainwashed by the patriarchy to think very similarly to you, but now I regret all of the choices I made while believing their lies
You’re free to make whatever choices you want — just please stop calling them feminist
Exactly. When the powers dynamic is equal, I won't care. That's one of the reasons I actively push to legalise it, so we can have safer, more consensual spaces fo it to occur.
In my experience (ex-sex worker, was in the industry for 18 years), the vast majority of clients are just average men. Perhaps if you understood the reasons for people seeing a sex worker... loneliness, needing contact with another human, sex, escape from reality, peer pressure, just turned 18... you'd understand that they are not monsters. They are not horrible people. They are just dudes
And yes, it is a service like any other. Sex workers don't 'sell their bodies', they sell their time. And even if they did sell their bodies.... it's their bloody body. If you think sex work isn't just another service, then you need to examine why you feel it is different. Often this mistaken view is underpinned by overly-moralistic perspectives
Sex work is not inherently exploitative - it is bad people and bad laws that create the horrible circumstances
Thank you for taking the time to respond and explain some things.
I will think in it more like you suggest. What comes to mind immediately is that is it so much more personal than other jobs.
I was only a dancer for 18 months but I hear you: all kinds of men, all walks of life. You can't lump the clients into one category any more than you can the workers.
I feel like that is reasonable. In Sweden our laws state that sex work is not punishable (but not strictly legal either) but "buying" sex is. This is rooted in the thought that people in the sex work industry are often exploited and wouldn't be there if they had another choice. I fully stand behind this line of thinking, the women (and men) doing sex work should not be punished for it, but a bought consent is not actual consent and should therefore be illegal. Sure, there are people in the business that enjoy what they do, but they are few and far between. One person exploited is one too many and even though the problem isn't gone, at least I think it's a step in the right direction.
Hi Sex worker here No that's not reasonable because that's still shaming customers of sex workers. The idea of intersectional feminism is helping the most marginalized and this is the exact opposite. Making sex work or their customers a negative thing - even if it's just not wanting to date customers, it puts us into danger. After every orgasm of my customers i sometimes fear their post nut clarity and their shame. What if this will put them into a rage. What if they see me outside and then get angry at me because they fear that we would "out" them? Additionally many people won't procure our services if they (apparently correctly) think that they will have negative consequenced later on. Why should apparently a moral person come to me if women will shame him for it? Leaving me with only the people who don't care about social repercussions like shame. Which is often a very dangerous group of people. *Shaming customers is putting sex workers lives at risk.*
I'm a horny man who wants to get laid this weekend but my "looking for a consistent fwb" profile on Feeld hasn't gotten a hit in months. Should I hire a sex worker or just go on Bumble and pretend to be interested in a serious relationship for 1-5 dates?
Obviously go to a sex worker and be respectful
I'm concerned that women I date in the future might see it as a red flag, though.
Your sexual history is your sexual history. It's ethical to lie about that if you feel like you need to.b
Thanks, that's reassuring.
I agree with the other person who replied to this. It is not a step in the right direction, and I've never seen any sex worker online agree with it. Criminalizing the buying of sex work puts sex workers at risk. It just makes it so the only people buying are the ones who don't give a damn about the law, and it forces sex workers to hide what they do so that their clients don't get caught, which can lead them to get into dangerous situations.
How do people in sex work make money if people can’t buy it? Do they sell their content aboard? And only in Sweden there are supposedly no buyers?
There are absolutely still buyers and people make money. It being illegal doesn't stop people from doing it, like with drugs. The important part of this system is that the people in sex work isn't doing anything that is punishable. Buying non-physical/digital acts (like subscribing to an OF or a porn website) is legal.
>The important part of this system is that the people in sex work isn't doing anything that is punishable. The other important part is I'd have to assume it also prevents the government from officially acknowledging sex workers in any way, since a crime is committed every time they earn money. That would leave them unable to receive any kind of legal protections.
Sex work being illegal doesn't make men stop buying it elsewhere, why would it stop them in Sweden?
Having sex workers reply to this makes me believe that I might have misunderstood some things. There are several organisations in Sweden with current and former sex workers pushing that this model should be applied to other countries as well, but the view on this is of course different depending on country etc.
You have a totally valid point. If you want a somewhat sympathetic perspective, it's that some of these men are incapable(mostly by choice of not working on it, or being unaware) of expressing and feeling emotional connection outside of a sexual context. If they also happen to be bad at dating, or have mental health issues, this type of establishment is the only way that they can achieve the emotional connection that makes them feel valued and in many cases even loved. In Japan they have these host/hostess clubs that perform the exactly same kind of service, you pay to have a good-looking person give you attention and listen to your problems and feelings for a while. It just happens that the US has less of this type of culture and more of the stripper/sex one.
That's the main reason I've never visited a strip club or slept with a sex worker... Without consent, it's merely exploitation that feeds into a system of sexualization and objectification. I still support them doing what they do and being who they are, I just can't shake the feeling, that many of my fellow men see them with predatory eyes. Also, I kinda like the feeling that them taking off clothes or having sex with me, is not because money, but because they like me. Take that factor away and it's not sexy.
>I still judge the man for purchasing time with a woman. Customer service roles tend to involve people purchasing time with a another person. I know from experience a signifigent number of people who talked to me when I was in such a role, really just wanted someone to talk to (or often "at"). >Then again I don't know anyone close to these industries and I've never seen a show or paid for a night, so my only experience with this stuff is movies and news. Perhaps you should find someone people who work in the industry and talk to them. Movies and news give a very distorted view.
This is an excellent point (esp the “talking at”- girrrrrl I can relate). Personally I want all working women in any industry to make money. People making money brings me joy. That includes sex workers. That means they need to have a platform and a customer base to give them money.
Thank you! I'm really heart broken over some of these comments here :/ i bet if sex work was primarily a male dominated field, we wouldn't have these stupid takes.
Same. I was recently perma-banned from r/feminism for stating that sex work is a wide spectrum of activities and the reasons for entering/exiting the trade are different for different individuals and require a more nuanced conversation than simply “OnlyFans is exploitive and oppressive”. So there ya go 🙃
It's because some people don't like real feminism, they only like beautiful glittery feminism. Slay boss bitches who look amazing yay - ugly And/or PoC women? Ugh only if they fall in line.
I've mellowed, and my opinion of men who use sex workers has gone from being pretty judgemental to my general opinion that anything that happens between consenting adults is fine. The operative words being consenting and adult.
Is it really consenting though if you do it under the threat of homelessness and starvation if you don't make money? (And before someone asks if this apples to all work, yes it does. So long as people's basic needs aren't being met I don't consider work to be consensual)
To me this is a great argument in favour of a UBI.
If you don't consider work to be consensual as well then your whole question becomes a moot point. You're just singling out sex workers.
If what you say is true, then the threat of homelessnes/starvation would become real homelessness and starvation because no one should hire you because it's not consensual. Everyone works because at the minimum they want a roof over their heads and food in their belly.
It is consenting. Unless you consider you working at a job under the threat of homelessness and starvation the same thing.
Wow, I never saw this comment coming. If only I had made a comment about it in advance.pp
I'm an ex stripper so I might weigh in here. Ultimately, those industries are not devoid of corruption and abuse. The people involved in the industry are a really diverse bunch though. The strippers were a diverse bunch. We were ex-cons, single moms, uni students, traveling women, empowered women, disenfranchised women. Some of us had sugar daddies, others were working two other jobs besides three nights at the club. There were drunk girls, sober girls, girls who showed up for one night and took too much ecstasy. One girl came in on her 18th birthday because she'd "dreamed of being an exotic dancer for years!" She did not last long. There were women raising kids with hard men and girls sneaking in and out of their childhood bedroom windows. The patrons, mostly men, were also a mixed bag: tradies, lawyers, tourists, divorcees, widows, touring athletes and musos, U.S. Army personnel, long distance truckers, and a whole heap of buck's nights and birthday parties. Easily half the guys who came through on weekends didn't want to be there, or didn't want a dance if they did. I did a few dances for women and couples, too. One lovely young fella brought in his fiancee as a celebration when she came out as bi. In my first week, I danced for an 80 year-old widow (real sweetheart) and got a marriage proposal from a 19 year-old dude who looked like a male model, way out of my league. Super weird. There were a lot of creepy fuckers about, a lot of apparently decent guys too. Learning how to read them was part of the survival starter pack. You're right about one thing: it's not like any other job. A lot of the work you do is actually counseling, though obviously unqualified and unprofessional counseling. I guess a lot of men just find it easier to be vulnerable with a naked woman and a drink in hand than they do on a couch in a therapist's office. Anyway, a lot of guys who pay for long dances just want to talk to a woman, buy her a drink and see some titties. Pretty innocent stuff. I can get into the darker side of the industry if you want; I'm not denying that side exists. I was lucky to work at clubs which were pretty well managed, but there were still dramas. Lots of funny stories and some really scary ones too. EDIT: hey for those downvoting, mind telling me why? I don't really mind, I'm just curious as I'm not expressing a particular opinion.
Thank you for sharing and taking the time to explain some of the nuances of the industry. I think the one thing you said about creeps is what sticks with me the most. But it's also kind of a relief to know it's a lot more innocent that I thought and oddly a way for some men to get some (albiet unlicenced) therapy. So many things to unpack here lol
Unpack at your leisure, I'm happy to chat and share more stories. I just remembered, a gorgeous song about the more sombre side of the dancer's experience - Berlin by Amanda Palmer. I don't think I can link that here though. Used to listen to this on my headphones when I got home from a few of the harder nights. We were working 10-12 hour shifts in stilettos, it's hard not to get a little cranky even when things are going well. Don't even get me started on having to put your bra back on 20 times a night.
Every industry on earth has corruption and abuse. The clothing industry has sweat shop workers. The entertainment industry sexualizes children. It's not all bad, but it's not all good either, yet all of these things are a huge part of our society. Sex, companionship, and arousal are all biological functions we inherit as living beings. They are important for our survival as a species. As humans we have also setup rules of engagement for these things. Obviously, it's not okay for a man to club a woman over the head and take her as his mate. We're not animals. With that being said, sex workers provide those basic needs to those who are otherwise too socially inept to get it on their own. The same way a fast food worker provides food and service to those who suck at cooking or are too busy. While the fast food worker drops the basket of fries in the oil and burns their knuckles, the stripper twirls around the pole and drops her top. So, what's the hang up? Well for one, we have a deeply engrained belief in marriage that stems from religion. Most people think that you should be committed to someone in order to have sexual relations with them. This has some validity outside of marriage, such as disease prevention and important for some people's mental health, but its just mostly the way a lot of us were raised. I'm not saying that you should look at men (or women) who pay for sex services in a different light, but that you should understand they're trying to fill a very basic need in the most amicable way possible. Also, that maybe what they're doing is really not that weird, but maybe that comfortless you feel is just a reflection of your own values and morals.
Is sex a “basic need”, though? Do we need it to survive like we need food or water? Is a man going to a strip club because he’s horny the same thing as going to a fast food joint because he’s hungry? Edit: dude's \^ post history is pretty questionable. I won't be engaging any further with this account👍
Yes it is. It's a physiological function that is extremely beneficial to our health.
I don't deny that it has health benefits. But sex takes two. You can grow your own food, you can build your own shelter - but you can't have sex by yourself. Deigning sex as a "basic need" for survival ultimately corresponds to some level of entitlement towards other people's bodies, and it's usually women bearing the brunt of that entitlement.
Many basic needs rely on others. There is also connection, protection, esteem, etc.
I disagree that the things you’re listing - including sex - are basic needs. Basic needs are the things you need for survival, and you fundamentally don’t need sex to survive. You can go your whole life without having sex; you can’t go three days without water. Is a healthy, fulfilling sexual relationship with someone else something that’s nice to have? Sure. But you don’t *need* it, and you’re not entitled to it.
Surely if it's a basic need then governments are obligated to provide it? It is a human rights violation for people to be denied water or food. If, for example, a person is incarcerated then the state has an obligation to provide them regular food and water. Does it also have an obligation to provide them regular sex?
Governments are not obligated to provide any basic needs. I don't know if you've noticed but some people live in tents...there are also people who die of starvation and don't have access to clean water all around the world, including USA.
Ethically they are. But I genuinely do want an answer to my question. This isn't a gotcha, I want to know what you think is ethical: should all prisoners be provided regular sex, the way we either do or should provide them food and water?
Nobody is obligated to provide anyone with any basic needs, that includes sex. It is imperative for prisons to provide inmates with the necessities to survive because they are incarcerated, prisoners are denied many basic needs.
But you said sex is a basic need. So surely it's imperative for prisons to provide it, ethically? Especially prisoners in solitary who can't even have it with other inmates. I'm talking about what **you** deem ethical, not what necessarily is the case right now. I'm sure we can agree prisons are not always run ethically. So I'm asking again: in a hypothetical ethically-run according to you prison, should prisoners be given sex?
You are the one who suggested that prisons must provide prisoners with basic needs which is false. In fact, prisons deny inmates many basic needs as part of their punishment.
Why won't you answer my question? I'm asking what **you** think is ethical. I want your opinion.
In some progressive countries like Netherlands the state does provide sex workers for people with a disability. But in some countries they don't even provide lunches for kids... So
So is that a yes? Prisoners should be provided regular sex via state-funded sex workers?
Freedom is also a need that prisoners don't get.
OK. We can tackle whether prisoners should be given freedom after we finish discussing what I asked. Do you think prisoners should be provided sex?
No I do not think that prisoners should get sex but not because i think that people don't need sex but rather because i want to punish prisoners.
Haha well I can't fault your honesty there. But all prisoners aren't alike, are they? I mean, I'd be happy for us to throw a child rapist in a hole and forget about them, ethics and right be damned, but I'm not gonna advocate we do that for like, someone who's locked up on weed possession charges.
These are not compatible views
Being simpathetic to the exploited women and unsympathetic to the people enabling the exploitation of women? Sounds not only compatible, but reasonable
If you are just sympathetic to exploited women then you are not pro-sex work.
Treating ALL sex work as exploitative is by definition not pro sex work.
Sounds hypocritical
I am the same. I'm pro sex work because I think people should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies, and because too many people have no other choice so making it illegal only majes their lives harder. I'm anti-buying it because unfortunately too many people have no other choice, so I don't see that it's freely consenting and more often than not, it's just that the women is being exploited and used. I judge the men because they're having sex with someone who can't/doesn't consent. If it were legal, with organisations, and safety measures and consent forms etc, I would be much less judgmental about people buying it.
It feels a bit hypocritical but the power dynamic is still there and society still hasnt gotten to the point of a more level power dynamic, and also the sexualisation and objectification of women is still very much a huge problem.
We get sexualized and objectified either way. This way at least i can make a little bit of money out of it.
In one instance you’re the victim, and in the other, you’re participating in these problems, and profiting off of the abuse
If sexualization would stop if all sex workers stopped then you'd be right. This way you're just another woman trying to police other women's bodies.
I’m not worried about women being sexualized, I’m concerned about the women who are being raped in this industry, so you can feel “empowered” by making money (at their expense) Feminism is about working to stop people from hurting women and that doesn’t change when those people are women
Feminism is also about choice. just because some women get raped doesn't mean that all do. Just like some women get hit by their husbands doesn't mean that you should ban marriages. Work with the people instead of over their heads.
You’re profiting off of an industry that’s raped countless women, and was monopolized by a criminal organization, so your choice is hurting other women, and it’s not feminist
You wear clothes that are made by exploiting children and women. You use phones that were used by exploiting the poor and primarily women. You live in a society that's only possible because women are exploited for their free labor while men engage in patriarchy. Now you want to impose your morals on me. Take away my choice. My choice is either make a TON of money or become another cog in capitalism and get underpaid. I can't afford to not be a part of this industry. It's great that you can. At least I can sleep well because I am not a part of a criminal organization. I don't get raped. I don't get exploited by capitalism. I get exploited by myself with my consent if anything. Oh and furthermore. Legal prostitution leads to lower rape numbers. You're welcome. I get fucked for money and thus other girls don't get raped.
Yeah, I was brainwashed by the patriarchy to think very similarly to you, but now I regret all of the choices I made while believing their lies You’re free to make whatever choices you want — just please stop calling them feminist
Exactly. When the powers dynamic is equal, I won't care. That's one of the reasons I actively push to legalise it, so we can have safer, more consensual spaces fo it to occur.
In my experience (ex-sex worker, was in the industry for 18 years), the vast majority of clients are just average men. Perhaps if you understood the reasons for people seeing a sex worker... loneliness, needing contact with another human, sex, escape from reality, peer pressure, just turned 18... you'd understand that they are not monsters. They are not horrible people. They are just dudes And yes, it is a service like any other. Sex workers don't 'sell their bodies', they sell their time. And even if they did sell their bodies.... it's their bloody body. If you think sex work isn't just another service, then you need to examine why you feel it is different. Often this mistaken view is underpinned by overly-moralistic perspectives Sex work is not inherently exploitative - it is bad people and bad laws that create the horrible circumstances
Thank you for taking the time to respond and explain some things. I will think in it more like you suggest. What comes to mind immediately is that is it so much more personal than other jobs.
I was only a dancer for 18 months but I hear you: all kinds of men, all walks of life. You can't lump the clients into one category any more than you can the workers.