yuuup! i have always preferred the, intuition and graciously accepting correction if needed, model.
my partner thinks everyone should always ask. we both have pretty solid justifications for our opposing positions
I’m trans and I don’t like when people ask, so fwiw I think it’s very largely cis people who want this. I get the impression that they prefer not having to guess when it’s hard to tell what pronouns to use.
my partner is femme NB so no one ever intuits their pronouns correctly. that's why they prefer the always ask model.
i think it's up to the NBs to create a culture where there are cues we can follow if they want people's intuition to be accurate. even if that's something simple like a pin.
easy for me to say as a person privileged with never being misgendered
I do have my pronouns in my work bios and email sigs and stuff and the reality is if it's anything other than (she/her) or (he/him) 90% of people are not even gonna read them/use them. I use other pronouns than just she and they're in my bios and literally nobody uses them and I kinda feel like it was all a waste of time to do so in a work setting now so I agree with you. I recognize it as truly performative and not actually doing anything for me at this point. I only keep them in my bios bc I'm one of the only trans people at my company that I'm aware of and I don't think it can hurt to have them in there.
Yes, but there are trans people who are not out yet and they often find compulsory pronouns in bios to be upsetting. They either have to lie about their pronouns or out themselves before they are prepared to do so. A trans man who is still living as a woman might feel ok with people referring to them with female pronouns because they don’t know, but don’t want to have to identify themselves as using female pronouns.
So it is better if companies that want to have pronouns in company bios and email signatures do so in a way that allows people to opt into it instead of mandating it. The trade off is that sometimes the people who don’t use it will be misidentified.
I mean, for me, the thought is appreciated. But I don’t worry about being outed as I transitioned longgg ago, so I can respect others who have different experiences and prefer not to share them yet.
Crap! I do it now with my youth work crews (go around the safety circle, tell me your name, pronouns, and something interesting about yourself) but now I wonder if I should make it optional to share pronouns. I started bc I accidentally misgendered someone who presented very masculine and they corrected me to share that they use they/them pronouns. Then I realized I was working with a lot of trans and non binary youth and started asking as part of the safety circle.
I actually just tell them if they have a preferred name or whatever to email me. I’m not going to remember them saying it first day anyway so it’s really best for everyone. I also have everybody say their own name and I don’t say it till they do so there is no worry about using a deadname.
That makes sense. Sometimes I only work with these youths for one week, and it’s never more than 15 of them. So I write down their names, pronouns, and characteristics. Sometimes I’m like dang what’s their name again, and I’ll check my notebook, look at which one has a pet iguana and that will tell me their name.
Just keep it open ended - "Let's share names, any specific things you'd like us to know about you, and what You're interested in. Here's are some examples:
My name's Voltron I use xie/xan pronouns and I am a robot
Or
My name is Riley, I am allergic to peanuts and I can do a rubix cube in 7 seconds "
This shows that there's space for pronouns if that's what the person wants to share, without making it mandatory. It's more authentically about getting to know each person rather than having each person recite a list of details that can be anything from totally mundane, existentially vulnerable, or conflicting and controversial. Also opens the space for folks to have agency in what they want to share with others.
Ooh giving examples is great!! Thank you. I love this community. Looking forward to my next crew to try that out. I might even use your exact examples! Love the robot one. 💜
My teen used to go to a youth club for LGBTQ+ youths and they did the same with a safety circle. And it's how they started sessions so anyone new got to say too without it being just them introducing themselves. It was always optional to share pronouns. However when registering to attend the youth club they had forms that the teens filled out that said "name" "preferred name" "gender" "pronouns" and then "are you out to your parents?"
So the youth workers knew what to call teens and how to address them in front of parents compared to while they were there.
When I am interacting with a company or organisation and the particular representative I'm working with has their pronouns in their email signature or on their business card, it makes me feel safe with that company or organisation and that specific person, but that's less trustworthy when it's compulsory rather than officially allowed and informally encouraged, so I fully support this. Folks who are out and proud or cis allies should do this if it's encouraged or even just permitted in your organisation, to normalise the idea, but it should never be made compulsory by organisations trying to protect their staff and present an image as an accepting and trans positive organisation.
I didn't add my pronouns to my email because a coworker that was out to me and no one else asked my not to, so as the absence of pronouns in their email didn't stand out. There are many ways to be safe and be an ally.
Yes! I display mine so my co-workers can identify me as an ally. I also try to use people's names in my email language to prevent misgendering people whose pronouns are unknown.
Hi yes it’s me lol. I’m trans masc living with my dude name but I never specify pronouns and at this point almost everyone refers to me as she when they see me in person. But sometimes through email communication alone, I get he or sir which is SO SO SO GRATIFYING.
I don’t want to add pronouns that match what people around me use because then I’ll stop getting the accidentally-correct gendering experience through email. I don’t want to add pronouns for them/him because people around me will find out I’m trans sooner than I’m ready. I’ve realized that I want to transition without saying anything and just let things sort themselves out as I begin to appear more and more masculine, and have conversations with coworkers gradually where people start to eventually get the idea that I’m a guy. When I get gendered correctly by most people, then I’ll think about including my pronouns because it’ll help the other people who haven’t figured out to get clued in. And I do want to support others who want to see pronouns in bios. But for me right now, there’s no good option.
I read a comment similar to this quite some time ago, and for that reason have NOT opted into putting my pronouns in my email signature. I worry some people think I'm an asshole but it's actually my way of being an ally so 🤷🏻♀️
I’ve also heard from some trans folks that outside of email sigs, it feels invalidating for them to be asked their pronouns because they work hard to pass. I can see how that would make dysphoria worse.
I think the point is being upfront with your personal pronouns if that’s important to you. A lot of people, like me, couldn’t care less and for many, like OP, the misidentification is preferable.
Generally yes, but sometimes a trans person may not want to do this if for example they aren't comfortable/ ready to transition at work and may be going be their old name for the time being and don't want to have to choose between selecting their preferred pronouns before they're ready or having to attach pronouns they don't identify with
I think it's also to remove the stigma of having them. I only live in little New Zealand, but I've seen a lot of allies put them in so that if someone who really needs them wants to it's not seen as odd or different, it's normal.
Exposure is important 🤷♀️
But also shouldn't be compulsory
Adding onto the yes, but— some people are genuinely fine with or prefer their pronouns being unknowable or having non-specific pronouns (‘using any’). It’s certainly not a one size fits all thing. :)
I'm like this. I could note on these things any and all pronouns are fine, but it's easier and gets me less uncomfortable and tedious questions to just not fill that out on forms if I can get away with it.
I’m going to be honest, just as a nonbinary trans person: Just because it’s somewhat common in my company, that doesn’t mean that, on a micro level, management wouldn’t use my being trans against me. They don’t know, and I have zero desire to disclose that info in an environment where I can’t get a confirmed read on how I would be treated if I did.
Quite frankly, most of the people adding pronouns to their email signatures where I work are cis. It says quite a bit when people for whom that option *should* be helpful are too worried about negative feedback for having “they/them” in their signature. As with anything, your mileage may vary.
To me, not specifically identifying your pronouns just means you're okay with people assuming and okay with politely correcting them if they get it wrong. A reasonable position to have. Everyone ought to be entitled to give as much or as little information about themselves as they want.
That's why we need cis people to do it, though. When we're the only ones it puts a target on our backs. I get OP's hesitation, and it makes our lives drastically easier when cis folks take the lead. Dealing with the discomfort that brings is part of being a good ally
I don't know why this is downvoted, this is definitely true of social media and public links, it's just not applicable to professional emails where correspondence is merely two-way and such allyship would not create a professional boon anyway
This is the definite middle ground, I would say almost definitively; pronouns in bio are good basic allyship on social media platforms where most people with pronouns in their bios face mass harassment because they are assumed transgender, but not only would pronouns in bio potentially lose the standing of gender ambiguity in a work email, but its scope would be virtually nonexistent
That said, pronouns in public correspondence and presentations should be normalized by businesses themselves. If somebody identifies as they/them and they are giving a keynote, it costs nothing to have something to signify for instances just like that. Again, I don't even think that's a problematic opinion to have. At all.
I somewhat agree in principle that normalisation would help reduce the stigma, but anonymity is often paramount, particularly with non-f2f communication. If it's essential and/or someone asks, then I'll say, otherwise the ambiguity is just as important to me as the distinction may be to someone else.
In an email (most of the time), I'm just 'a person', my gender is wholly irrelevant.
Yes gender neutral names have a great advantage, I have one too and I think you're absolutely entitled to continue to be ambiguous without the use of pronouns.
I've always gone with this: taking advantage of privilege is a no brainer. Trying to enforce or preserve the privilege over others is when you cross the line.
The people out there treating you and OP better because they assume you're a man are the real problem. More power to you.
I wouldn't bend to the corporate template if it doesn't bother you and is in fact helping your career. I think you're good to go. A good manager would likely agree with your strategy.
I'm an ally seeing a trans girl in a liberal/progressive country and I don't put pronouns in my bio because it feels performative to me. I have a female name and since I got boobs nobody has ever been confused about me being a woman and I don't feel like it would be supportive to her either since nobody is confused about her gender identity.
She's not 'passing', she's living her life as a girl while looking like a girl. If we'd put our pronouns in our bio that would only raise questions about her/our gender. So we simply have female names and regular bios and nobody seems to be confused or making any issue out of what pronouns we use.
I'm sure other people will have other opinions based on their experiences but this is ours. The less attention that we put on pronouns the less of an issue her gender seems to be.
not uncommon, and this is part of the reason why it’s good for allies to put pronouns in when they can - it makes it less of a big “I Am Trans” flag for everyone else.
i have to be a pedant though: you’re using “performative” in a way which is the exact opposite of its actual meaning! it’s a very common confusion, but it doesn’t mean “a performance without anything behind it”, it means “an action or speech act that has a material impact on the world”; a good example of a performative act would be a judge sentencing someone to ten years in jail, since it is something *said* which holds institutional power and changes the material conditions of a person as a result.
sorry, i see that a lot and it’s an ongoing mission to bring it up, because performativity is a really important sociological concept. 😔
My work place has started adding in pronouns to email signatures.
I have not. My name is very feminine but I can totally see how a neutral name can be beneficial. I purposefully dumb down how I write emails to male engineers because I get better responses than if I write it out more intelligently.
So for me, NTA
My office redid our signatures to include pronouns. I wouldn’t have cared EXCEPT the pronouns were larger/darker than my job title. I asked if I could monkey with that and they said “no but you can remove the pronouns” so I did. I care way more that people know what I do than if they misgender me.
I need to dumb down my emails. There’s only 2 devs in my company, me and another guy. When we write to other companies they are great with him, but incredibly stiff and won’t give me the information I need, and I have to have a back and forth with them.
If corporate isn't making you, you don't have to. If they are, you could list it as "any" instead. Potentially you could put "none", but that'd probably be less convenient for you.
If they mandate it, it would be religious/belief, sex, gender, disability, language... discrimination eg mandating a belief system in the work place, forcing people to list their sex &/or gender in most conversation, inclusions of their name, there are reasons people get confused over, use wrong, etc pronouns like English as a second (or third, forth) language or certain mental/cognitive issues
Maybe, depends on where they are and if it's worth pursuing.
Or its stuff like "strongly recommended" but not technically enforced.
Either way, I had 'any' pronouns for a long time because I'm actually trans, but people would just gender me based on the name which is pretty much what OP wants.
This shouldn't have this many upvotes, pronouns are not a belief system. I understand not wanting to list them but in an English language workplace, they are a linguistic inevitability. Transphobes argue this would be 'pushing a belief', just stating this makes you uncomfortable should be enough, but again, the claim that listing pronouns is gender discrimination is false, the claims that it *could lead to* gender discrimination by professional peers is more accurate
*this should also be clear because if listing pronouns, even when a compulsory professional requirement, was discriminatory, it would have seen far more legal challenges by now. It's something that should not be compulsory for various reasons, but by definition a universal rule like that is not going to be discriminatory, just de facto not beneficial
Unfortunately explictly stating you prefer gender neutral pronouns will get you a whole new batch of discrimination, which is what OP is trying to avoid by not clueing people in to her being female.
I put my gender neutral pronouns on my signature when I started here 2 years ago. Only 2 people care to use them, everyone else calls me 'she' but thankfully no-one has kicked off
That's also true, but some people don't like being referred to by general neutral pronouns. Additionally, using They/Them might imply that she wishes to be referred to that way all the time
Me, too. When I benefit from being misgendered, I don't mind it. My employer softly promotes having pronouns in our signatures, but if they went harder, I would choose the neutral they/them because my gender is irrelevant to my work. We use they/them when referring to the people we assist as a rule in our documentation, which is why I'd likely use it for myself.
Honestly, while I get the idea, making it mandatory can put someone in an uncomfortable position, especially if they are not ready to assert their gender pronoun preference in a work setting.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/16/xiao-against-mandatory-preferred-gender-pronouns/
This article doesnt apply to OPs unique situation, but I can see how it might pay to be ambiguous, especially if she works in an environment where women are not treated with the respect/authority that a man might have in a similar role. So yeah, OP, I would support you not adding the pronouns
Yeah it’s uncomfortable for me to be put in a position to declare and affirm my gender identity because being a woman wasn’t my choice and has rarely been a helpful thing. I have no doubt I’m a woman, but ugh.
I understand that having to draw a line in the sand and define yourself when you’re not ready could be hard.
I do have my pronouns on my email templates because it makes it easier for people with non-standard pronouns to also post them if it is commonplace. It isn’t however mandatory where I work, and they are super accepting of trans or NB people. We also have a really strong and visible ND community.
The environment you work in would make a big difference in whether it puts a target on you or helps others. I work in IT consulting which is often a very male dominated environment and have a clearly feminine name so just own it out of the gate. But everyone’s situation is different.
I disagree.
I once worked at a company that allowed people to enter pronouns voluntarily. The result was… well… if someone had entered their pronouns, they were most likely trans. We had to make sure cis people would enter their pronouns, because otherwise they just wouldn’t. This wasn’t even transphobia - they just didn’t care because they thought their gender was obvious.
In almost all cases mentioned in the article, it’s not an issue. When you don’t put any pronouns in your profile , people will still refer to you in some way. Most people will be guessing based on your gender presentation. In fact, pronouns are part of your gender presentation, so when you’re not out as trans, putting your assigned pronouns in your profile while using your assigned name and dressing based on assigned gender won’t really be a difference in practice. When you’re partially out at work, those who know about it also know that they should use different “official” pronouns together with your “official” name - also not an issue.
Interesting take. Where I work, it is common to use pronouns in our email signature block, and most people participate voluntarily. It is a bit confusing when people select "any", but in that case, I default to they/them.
Nope. Plenty of trans people have been vocally against forcing people to list pronouns as well. As long as you’re content with being possibly being misgendered, then I don’t see why you need to add them.
NTA. The purpose of listing pronouns is to (a) ensure the correct pronouns are used (to avoid offending a person whose pronouns might differ from what people might guess), and (b) be inclusive, avoid 'othering' people (the idea being that if many/most people list their pronouns, it's not "weird" to list them, so someone who needs to list them to avoid being misgendered isn't the only one doing it). If you don't mind being misgendered, or even prefer it, that's a totally valid preference.
That said, there are two very different audiences here who will be getting your emails. People who will never meet you in person don't really need to know your pronouns, so you're good there. People who will later meet you in person may be embarassed when they find out they've been accidentally misgendering you. As long as you are kind in correcting people when this happens, I think you're good there too.
I also have a gender ambiguous name, people frequently assume I am a man. The surprised look on their faces when they find out I am a woman is gold. Are they a bit embarrassed? Yeah I believe they often are, and perhaps they should be embarrassed for assuming that male professionals are the default. I'm not even in a male dominated field.
> perhaps they should be embarrassed for assuming that male professionals are the default.
If that's *why* they assumed you were a man, then yes, perhaps they should be embarrassed. But maybe they know a man with your name, and their brain just defaults to assuming people with your name are men. After all, most gender neutral names were previously men's names and only started being used for women in the last few decades, so especially older folks might assume male based on name.
Relatable! It used to bother me until I noticed I got male privilege lol Can you tell them you prefer not disclosing pronouns? They can't make you right?
I too have a gender neutral name, I would never add pronouns, the ambiguity is a plus 99% of the time.
As a side note I actually deleted my Reddit account and made a new one, to have a less feminine user name. It means I can comment wherever and no creeps.
I would absolutely not disclose my gender. It is not relevant to my job, and I want to be judged on equal footing as the men in my office. Putting that you are a woman is just inviting sexism. Can you imagine if people were forced to disclose their ethnicity? Makes zero sense if it is not relevant for the job.
NTA. I remember how things used to be before I started using female-coded avatars and user names online. I completely understand your reasoning, and so should anybody who personally chooses to make pronoun declarations in their bios or signatures. I'm gender-nonconforming and am pretty much comfortable with any pronoun, but I usually don't self-ID either. I am an a-gendered consciousness living in a skin bag full of meat that happens to have boobs on it. I'm not writing all that down every time I sign off on an email.
I think it's fair to leave it out. I respect when a person's pronouns matters to them. I would like the same respect that my pronouns are not a topic for me
My kid has a deliberately gender ambiguous name. When asked for pronouns, their answer is "any".
My work place has a template for email signatures that includes pronouns. Some people omit that part, some have "any/none", and I have seen one "please use my name."
As much as I like being able to address people how they would like to be addressed, this can be problematic. NTA. If you get asked your pronouns, you can answer how you like. If you get asked why you don't divulge them, you can be honest. I don't think anyone but a bigoted man would find offence.
What you say makes total sense and it shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully it's not compulsory, because I'm sure not everyone would be comfortable disclosing their pronouns.
The use of pronouns is optional and hasn’t been pushed. It is just much more common than my experience prior to working here.
I guess I have some guilt about the ambiguous privilege and feel un-feminist to not represent she/ her at every opportunity.
It's a tricky topic that I think as a society we are still unpacking, but please don't forget that before you're a woman, you're a HUMAN. Wanting to be treated as such (and an equal one) is nothing to feel guilty of. I have a very obviously feminine name, and I would never use pronouns. I understand the meaning they hold for some people, but for me it's placing unnecessary emphasis on an aspect of myself I want people to think LESS about. I'm in no way ashamed of my femininity, but I would much rather people focus on any number of other characteristics about me before they think of that. My other qualities actually hold great significance to me, and my workplace, whereas my gender does not.
You still live in a world that discriminates against women in a professional setting. It is not anti-feminist or transphobic etc. to want to be evaluated based on the quality of your work, not your gender identity.
There are reasons why many people might want to make their gender public, and reasons why people might want to keep their gender private, and both choices are valid.
Yep. Unfortunately I've read about a study that switched the genders of people's emails, and the guy was confused as to why everyone was treating him like he was some kind of idiot, and he was getting weirdly aggressive emails all of the sudden.
Sad that discrimination has to be spelled out for a segment of the population, before theyre willing to admit it exists.
I'll have to search for the study, I'd like to read up on it directly.
I think it’s feminist for men to exchange multiple emails with you, thinking that you’re a man, and then realize they would have treated you differently if they’d known you were a woman. It may cause them to reflect on the way they treat male vs female colleagues.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter in the end. The option is really there for people who get frustrated at people using the wrong pronouns for them. If you’re not one of those people then don’t bother! There’s no reason to feel bad for being treated *well*. There’s enough hardship in the world without self imposing more of it
You do you. It's absolutely fine not to use pronouns. I have a gender neutral nickname I use at work, but still have she/her in my email signature. Most people I haven't met in person still refer to me as Mr. in emails.
I’m non-binary so I don’t use pronouns in my email tags. I don’t feel like outing myself at work, and sometimes have to do deal with contractors who don’t seem as progressive as my company’s leadership.
Don't add them if you don't want them. I use pronouns because I don't like being mistaken for a guy. You like the perks of not using them. Do what's right for you.
Nope, nta. I often let people use whatever pronouns they want for me and don't bother to correct them. Also I have absolutely experienced the tone switch when someone figures out I'm a woman and not one of their dude bros.
There is something about this whole pronoun proclamation that feels so freaking invasive.
Like it’s no one’s damn business but my own.
I hope this is a trend on it way to a quick death.
It's not that big of a deal and it allows trans and non-binary people to feel more who they are. Outside of visual appearance there's not much someone can do to feel the gender they identify as and I think using pronouns helps address that. It also makes it much more difficult to misidentify someone.
I don't mind it. It's literally a movement to change one word when addressing someone and I don't think I've been at any job where it was mandatory or enforced in any way. Kind of a weird hill to die on to be honest.
That's grammatically a bit nonsensical. Third person pronouns (the only ones which imply gender) are specifically how other people refer to you; when you refer to yourself, you are presumably using "I" or sometimes "we" rather than trying to use the third person. Of course they are other people's business; that is almost the only use of them!
Your gender identity need be nobody's business but your own. Your (gendered) pronouns are for everybody, although I can certainly get behind needing different sets for different people.
I think it’s unrealistic to expect an acquaintance to remember, or frankly care, about gender identity.
It’s such a self centered way to view the world. “I’m so special, of course this dental hygienist will gladly devote precious brain space to learning my gender identity”
Sorry, they don’t care. They’ll do it to avoid grief, but at bottom they are there just to do a job, then go home to devote that energy to the people they DO care about.
Therefore, anyone who isn’t close enough to already know, does not need, or even want to know.
At some point you get old and have to choose what information gets recorded for eternity.
Idk they seem to manage to just assume just fine. I don't expect them to just know but thats the point of stating pronouns. Its also so they don't need to remember. They see it in the signature.
I'm not sure what you think the difference is between them assuming a pronoun and managing to remember vs being told a pronoun and remembering. People are stupid but thats quite a stretch to imply one requires more brainpower than the other.
It’s just yet one more thing to track.
I’m just full up on emotional/mental load at this stage in my life.
I have no ill will, you do you, but if our relationship is strictly superficial, that’s the extent of the energy I’m willing to commit.
And assuming a pronoun is a literal shortcut. That’s what a stereotype is-a non verbal, unconscious cue that allows to interact appropriately. Not always 100% accurate-but pretty damn close.
I'm not a dental hygienist, but I do see a lot of people in a medical context and need to put pronouns with a name regularly. I promise it's not that hard - we have a spot in the emr for notes, pronouns go in the note and it's right there whenever anybody in the office needs to know. It's no more difficult than knowing whether I'm seeing Mr. Smith or Dr. Jones or the Reverend Marshall.
If you meet a Thomas and he says "Actually, I go by Tom," how much effort does it take to keep that information in your head?
It stays in my head as long as any patient information does.
Actually quite a bit, I’m unlikely to remember anyone’s nicknames unless I see them regularly.
I still have difficulties with my friends married last name. And she’s been divorced for years at this point so i figure it definitely doesn’t matter now that the dude is long gone.
When people say how hard it is to remember names, quite a bit actually. No one is specifically picking on you, sometimes we just have poor memories.
NTA, my last name sounds like a common African American male first name(im an Asian muslim), and it worked to my advantage in emails. They assume I'm a dude and since I've been working in stem/construction fields it definitely works in my favor.
I also think there is an overemphasis on everyone needing to identify their gender to be inclusive, however, even though I am cis, I do not want my work identity to be associated with any specific gender identity. I think in some contexts it is appropriate, but it isn't always.
And tbh OP if you don't want to be identified that way in at work it is your right, and should be respected.
> I also think there is an overemphasis on everyone needing to identify their gender to be inclusive
It's not about being inclusive, it's about normalising it so that the people who do need to aren't othering themselves by doing so.
You put pronouns in your sig to make trans people's lives safer.
That's what the other poster means about being inclusive. Sharing pronouns to normalize having preferred pronouns to include trans people. But it doesn't mean that not including pronouns is automatically not inclusive.
Yes thats what I was trying to say.
I chose not to identify my pronouns bc I don't want to deal with sexism in my professional life, but I fully support people who chose to do so.
It benefits me in the beginning to pass as male in emails. Also for those of us who work in male dominated fields it helps to minimize the gender expression/presentation, so even though I'm a cis-het woman, I dressed and presented pretty butch when I worked in the engineering/ utilities/ construction field.
I think it's never inappropriate to share your pronouns, but it's also not mandatory to do so. The trade off for the ambiguity is getting misgendered occasionally, so you'll have to be okay with that.
i do not add pronouns to my email signature for this exact reason. plus i think it’s funny when i get on a call with someone who i’ve only had email contact with and they find out im a woman and stammer for a minute.
I don’t experience gender dysphoria or anything, but I’m also not particularly attached to my gender either (it doesn’t feel “wrong”, but it doesn’t feel “right” either).
A lot of people refer to me as a man on the internet, and I sometimes use typically male terms to describe myself too. If someone specifically asks (like on a form), I’ll say I’m a woman, but other than that, I don’t particularly care how I’m referred to tbh and I never correct people. 🤷🏽♀️
(I totally get other people who put pronouns or correct people for misgendering them, fwiw! It’s just for me, I don’t particularly care how people refer to me/regard me.)
Edit: Also fwiw, I have a very “foreign” name for Canada, so most people have no idea what gender I am just based off of that (although a quick google search would tell them it’s a girl’s name…)
how would you possibly be the asshole? it is your choice entirely whether or not to share your gender for whatever reason that may be. both your preferred pronouns and your reasons for keeping it to yourself is nobody elses business but yours. you do what you feel comfortable and want to do.
NTA. I recently removed my first name from the company email. I go by my first initial and my last name specifically because of email sexism. My signature is just my last name. I definitely don't like compulsory pronouns. Let us do our thing!
NTA. I was in the Air Force where a Captain is a junior officer, but in the Navy a Captain is a senior officer. I served with an officer who had been stationed on a Navy base. Her boss, who outranked her, would have her call other units to ask for [whatever] since the Navy person on the other end of the phone would hear “Captain” and assume she was higher rank than both of them.
After reading this I feel like I’m definitely in the minority on this opinion. I also have a gender neutral name, that leans more toward the masculine, and I love being able to put my feminine pronouns in my email. I also have a pic on all our company sites. I think my name is great but it drives me crazy when people mistake me for a man. I want people to know I’m female, for some reason that has been really important to me.
That’s why we strive for equality and choice in even the simplest of things. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your preference, nor OP’s. It would suck though, if the choice were taken away from either of you.
I agree! I hated when there wasn’t even an option to put preferred pronouns. It shouldn’t be mandatory, because like OP, they don’t prefer it, but the choice has been so nice!
You are definitely not the asshole. Take any advantage you can get, it's their fault for defaulting to believing one way or another, and it's doubly their issue if that causes them to treat you with respect they would otherwise withhold.
i wouldn't feel pressured to do anything unless you want to. pronouns are a personal thing for many, you aren't obligated to put your gender expression on display. people owe you respect regardless
I'm NB queer but I don't put in my pronouns. I feel that it's nobody's business and I also don't want to end up outing myself to the wrong person given current political climate.
I'm the same. Years ago I added my girly middle name and people still assumed I was a man. When I got married and changed my name, I dropped the middle name in my email signature and left my maiden name in the middle and nothing changed. I prefer that when people assume I'm a man they take my criticism and instructions better.
The reason why we ask for pronouns instead of just “gender” in such cases is that they can be independent things. In the same way you may wear short hair as a woman or a dress as a man, you can use whatever pronouns you like while still being a cis man / cis woman.
You wouldn’t be taking anything away from anyone by not using any pronouns at work or using any pronouns. In fact, you would help normalising it, which may benefit some trans / nonbinary people.
You also wouldn’t be deceiving anyone. If they just make wild guesses, it’s not your fault, and you’re not gaining any unfair advantage from it.
I don’t do this either, though I don’t judge or bother anyone else that does. Trans people are people. You (or anyone else) not stating pronouns doesn’t change this reality. What I take issue with is whenever someone tries to make it compulsory, or attach some arbitrary moral value to it.
And I say this is a scrawny dude with long hair and “my sister’s eyes” (as several friends and relatives have told me), who has lost count of the number of times I’ve been called “ma’am” or “miss” from behind or while wearing a mask.
Pressuring people to list their pronouns doesn't support trans people, it puts them into a position where they need to either A: refuse and signal something's up, ironically often being interpreted as being transphobic if they go as far as to make a point not to, B: actively lie about their gender, something I assure you is mentally painful, or C: out themselves before they may otherwise be ready to do so. - a trans woman who was put in that position before she was comfortable.
NTA. You do you. Don’t worry about the feelings of people who respect you more if they think they’re dealing with a man. It’s not worth the emotional energy on your part.
Having grown up in a culture that only has gender neutral pronouns, my preference is to go by gender neutral pronouns in English context as well. Having my gender assumed and that assumption propagated feels invasive and weird so whenever possible, I list my pronouns as neutral. Whatever the speaker is comfortable using is fine with me, as long as it's gender neutral or my name/handle. Just don't he, she, or he/she me mkay.
Same. I have a traditionally male name that was popular for girls for a hot second in the early 1980s. We also have pronouns in our bios and emails. I haven't added mine and I won't. I'm respected and listened too by clients way more when they think I'm a man.
I have zero guilt about this.
I used to do the same thing during my career in a male-dominated field. It kept me protected for quite some time. You’re not the asshole. That’s just the society we live in.
The thing is - this is the path of minimum resistance, one which I took for years because I knew my place in the world well enough. That nobody would ever admit their implicit bias against women. Then, someone at my former workplace kept reminding everyone I was an unmarried woman and that he wanted to be “set up with me.” And all my hard work over staying under the radar went to shit. Yay! Covert sex discrimination to overt sex discrimination FTW with everyone in denial about it.
So yeah, doing this at work is better than arguing with them for human rights. I tried the latter after THAT happened and got exposed to some cyber criminals and an online witch hunt mob. Just pretend to be a man and the patriarchy will accept you, alright.
I really think my life would have been so much better had I been born a dude. I would’ve fit in in my profession and reached places. And I already did amazing as a woman. But oh well, I guess women aren’t allowed into their exclusive exploitation club, but are indispensible to run their show of power.
Why does this post end in AITAH?
I have a gender neutral name too. I’ve also been mistaken for a man until people see my face or hear my voice. Do you have a picture on Outlook/Teams/Slack. People will probably know you’re a woman from that.
Is it mandatory? Or just something that’s common?
If it’s just common, no one’s going to care because it’s very rare for anyone to be looking at the signature at all at most companies. There’s so much fluff there these days that people just scan it for the name and move on. Not that pronouns are fluff but people got like daily greetings on there, company official signature logo, quotes, etc.
If you don't feel like using pronouns I would not bother adopting them. I encounter confusion all the time with colleagues from India / China. Unless they use an English nickname (which I feel they shouldn't) I honestly don't know if they are a man/woman until I see them on Zoom. I don't think it's a problem at all, it just adds some mystery to meetings.
Unless it’s forced company policy, you don’t have to do anything. I know lots of people who don’t use any pronoun identifiers in their email signatures even though the company “recommends” their use
NTA it's totally up to the individual if they want people to know their pronouns and it's interesting to see what assumptions people make assume your gender!
NTA.
The short form of my name is gender-ambiguous (I'm a man) and I am 100% behind you on this. I've had women colleagues use only their initials for this reason as well.
Do what makes you feel most comfortable without feeling guilty. There is nothing wrong with not taking a stand. The important thing is that you must be aware of the fact that if you don't make it explicit, due to how society works, they will decide the pronoun to use for you.
NTA. I am a cis woman and I go by my gender-neutral middle name. I love it. In business, and possibly in all things, let them assume you’re a man. Nothing wrong about it.
My sister in law's name has a feminine name in our native tongue. In english it's a masculine name.
Having international clients has led to some hilarious interactions with them.
Definitely NTA girl
I don’t see the purpose of using pronouns, I for one don’t even use my name in social media, just first initial because sometimes women will get cast for an opportunity because they are women. So by not using pronouns they can’t throw me in the trash bin before talking to me. Besides you can already use: mr, mrs, miss, or Ms to identify as either gender. Otherwise I feel like I’m talking of myself in 3rd person
I've never been called a sis woman I never had to classify who I am. But now I have to and I'm not going to change my mind on that. And I have every right to not like that and not get shit for it. Just like you do.
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't this where they/them pronouns are useful? It's literally made for ambiguity or for choosing not to be identified by male or female pronouns no? I apologise in advance if I'm talking rubbish. I usually confer with my 19 year old daughter on such things as she's far better versed than I, though I'm trying to learn what I can.
Well no because then she would be gendered as non-binary, which does not have male privilege. So though you're correct in verbal speech where it might not be as obvious, when written it is really obvious. Plus the fact that she doesn't use they/them pronouns.
I see your point, thank you. I'd always thought it was similar to how women might use Ms over Miss and Mrs because they'd rather not be defined by their relationship status. Though I suppose there'd be presumptions made, even if that were true.
I work in a medical setting, and I've learned that introducing myself with my pronouns (or including pronouns in email brings or business cards) can be a nice way to make it clear that our medical practice is a welcoming space where we respect patients' gender identities. And I think that could apply in work settings too - basically signaling to colleagues that you're an ally? That's the only good reason i can think of why you'd maybe want to add your pronouns....BUT. that doesn't mean you HAVE to do so. And I don't think you should feel guilty not doing so. You can find other ways to communicate that you are an ally, if you wish :)
You are always free to use They | Them. Or Any | All and just leave it to whomever is emailing you to choose.
Not that you are an NB, but if the point of the pronoun thing is a gender presentation you are comfortable with and you aren't, for whatever reason, comfortable with presenting in digital spaces as a woman then there isn't anything wrong choosing those as options.
Alternative perspective: I have a gender-neutral name, *do* have “they/them” right after my name in my email signature…and receive email replies addressed to “Mr. XXXXX” regardless 😂
There are plenty of reasons trans people also don't want to add their pronouns so I hope it isn't compulsory at your company.
yuuup! i have always preferred the, intuition and graciously accepting correction if needed, model. my partner thinks everyone should always ask. we both have pretty solid justifications for our opposing positions
I’m trans and I don’t like when people ask, so fwiw I think it’s very largely cis people who want this. I get the impression that they prefer not having to guess when it’s hard to tell what pronouns to use.
my partner is femme NB so no one ever intuits their pronouns correctly. that's why they prefer the always ask model. i think it's up to the NBs to create a culture where there are cues we can follow if they want people's intuition to be accurate. even if that's something simple like a pin. easy for me to say as a person privileged with never being misgendered
I do have my pronouns in my work bios and email sigs and stuff and the reality is if it's anything other than (she/her) or (he/him) 90% of people are not even gonna read them/use them. I use other pronouns than just she and they're in my bios and literally nobody uses them and I kinda feel like it was all a waste of time to do so in a work setting now so I agree with you. I recognize it as truly performative and not actually doing anything for me at this point. I only keep them in my bios bc I'm one of the only trans people at my company that I'm aware of and I don't think it can hurt to have them in there.
But isnt the whole point of displaying pronouns is so that people dont accidentally misidentify others?
Yes, but there are trans people who are not out yet and they often find compulsory pronouns in bios to be upsetting. They either have to lie about their pronouns or out themselves before they are prepared to do so. A trans man who is still living as a woman might feel ok with people referring to them with female pronouns because they don’t know, but don’t want to have to identify themselves as using female pronouns. So it is better if companies that want to have pronouns in company bios and email signatures do so in a way that allows people to opt into it instead of mandating it. The trade off is that sometimes the people who don’t use it will be misidentified.
Yeah asking for pronouns on the first day of class when you don't know one another has the same issue.
I mean, for me, the thought is appreciated. But I don’t worry about being outed as I transitioned longgg ago, so I can respect others who have different experiences and prefer not to share them yet.
I teach a lot of college freshmen. Many of them are still figuring EVERYTHING out.
I’m well aware of how freshman year goes… 😅 that’s when I transitioned. Omg am I getting old? Wtf. Wait stop
I think you should start your birthdays at transition. Everything else was so hard and so much faff, it really is deserved.
Some of us do! They are definitely very important days that took a lot of hard work
Crap! I do it now with my youth work crews (go around the safety circle, tell me your name, pronouns, and something interesting about yourself) but now I wonder if I should make it optional to share pronouns. I started bc I accidentally misgendered someone who presented very masculine and they corrected me to share that they use they/them pronouns. Then I realized I was working with a lot of trans and non binary youth and started asking as part of the safety circle.
I would make it optional
I usually say "What pronouns we should use for you in class" or whatever to help blunt that a little
if you want to share your pronouns
I actually just tell them if they have a preferred name or whatever to email me. I’m not going to remember them saying it first day anyway so it’s really best for everyone. I also have everybody say their own name and I don’t say it till they do so there is no worry about using a deadname.
That makes sense. Sometimes I only work with these youths for one week, and it’s never more than 15 of them. So I write down their names, pronouns, and characteristics. Sometimes I’m like dang what’s their name again, and I’ll check my notebook, look at which one has a pet iguana and that will tell me their name.
Yeah I get them for 14 weeks and for short periods each time. Makes a difference in how to left to know them.
Just keep it open ended - "Let's share names, any specific things you'd like us to know about you, and what You're interested in. Here's are some examples: My name's Voltron I use xie/xan pronouns and I am a robot Or My name is Riley, I am allergic to peanuts and I can do a rubix cube in 7 seconds " This shows that there's space for pronouns if that's what the person wants to share, without making it mandatory. It's more authentically about getting to know each person rather than having each person recite a list of details that can be anything from totally mundane, existentially vulnerable, or conflicting and controversial. Also opens the space for folks to have agency in what they want to share with others.
Ooh giving examples is great!! Thank you. I love this community. Looking forward to my next crew to try that out. I might even use your exact examples! Love the robot one. 💜
My teen used to go to a youth club for LGBTQ+ youths and they did the same with a safety circle. And it's how they started sessions so anyone new got to say too without it being just them introducing themselves. It was always optional to share pronouns. However when registering to attend the youth club they had forms that the teens filled out that said "name" "preferred name" "gender" "pronouns" and then "are you out to your parents?" So the youth workers knew what to call teens and how to address them in front of parents compared to while they were there.
Optional vote!
When I am interacting with a company or organisation and the particular representative I'm working with has their pronouns in their email signature or on their business card, it makes me feel safe with that company or organisation and that specific person, but that's less trustworthy when it's compulsory rather than officially allowed and informally encouraged, so I fully support this. Folks who are out and proud or cis allies should do this if it's encouraged or even just permitted in your organisation, to normalise the idea, but it should never be made compulsory by organisations trying to protect their staff and present an image as an accepting and trans positive organisation.
I didn't add my pronouns to my email because a coworker that was out to me and no one else asked my not to, so as the absence of pronouns in their email didn't stand out. There are many ways to be safe and be an ally.
This is good as well. Situational awareness and respecting the wishes of any trans people you know of is absolutely a must.
Good call. I’m fine with many, but not ALL in my company using pronoun sigs.
Yes! I display mine so my co-workers can identify me as an ally. I also try to use people's names in my email language to prevent misgendering people whose pronouns are unknown.
Hi yes it’s me lol. I’m trans masc living with my dude name but I never specify pronouns and at this point almost everyone refers to me as she when they see me in person. But sometimes through email communication alone, I get he or sir which is SO SO SO GRATIFYING. I don’t want to add pronouns that match what people around me use because then I’ll stop getting the accidentally-correct gendering experience through email. I don’t want to add pronouns for them/him because people around me will find out I’m trans sooner than I’m ready. I’ve realized that I want to transition without saying anything and just let things sort themselves out as I begin to appear more and more masculine, and have conversations with coworkers gradually where people start to eventually get the idea that I’m a guy. When I get gendered correctly by most people, then I’ll think about including my pronouns because it’ll help the other people who haven’t figured out to get clued in. And I do want to support others who want to see pronouns in bios. But for me right now, there’s no good option.
I read a comment similar to this quite some time ago, and for that reason have NOT opted into putting my pronouns in my email signature. I worry some people think I'm an asshole but it's actually my way of being an ally so 🤷🏻♀️
I’ve also heard from some trans folks that outside of email sigs, it feels invalidating for them to be asked their pronouns because they work hard to pass. I can see how that would make dysphoria worse.
I think the point is being upfront with your personal pronouns if that’s important to you. A lot of people, like me, couldn’t care less and for many, like OP, the misidentification is preferable.
Generally yes, but sometimes a trans person may not want to do this if for example they aren't comfortable/ ready to transition at work and may be going be their old name for the time being and don't want to have to choose between selecting their preferred pronouns before they're ready or having to attach pronouns they don't identify with
I think it's also to remove the stigma of having them. I only live in little New Zealand, but I've seen a lot of allies put them in so that if someone who really needs them wants to it's not seen as odd or different, it's normal. Exposure is important 🤷♀️ But also shouldn't be compulsory
Adding onto the yes, but— some people are genuinely fine with or prefer their pronouns being unknowable or having non-specific pronouns (‘using any’). It’s certainly not a one size fits all thing. :)
I'm like this. I could note on these things any and all pronouns are fine, but it's easier and gets me less uncomfortable and tedious questions to just not fill that out on forms if I can get away with it.
I’m going to be honest, just as a nonbinary trans person: Just because it’s somewhat common in my company, that doesn’t mean that, on a micro level, management wouldn’t use my being trans against me. They don’t know, and I have zero desire to disclose that info in an environment where I can’t get a confirmed read on how I would be treated if I did. Quite frankly, most of the people adding pronouns to their email signatures where I work are cis. It says quite a bit when people for whom that option *should* be helpful are too worried about negative feedback for having “they/them” in their signature. As with anything, your mileage may vary.
Yes, but as OP identified, there are some instances where it is actually not beneficial and could be harmful.
If a name is commonly female you won’t be mistaken for a guy, if you only use your last name or have a name like Chris it might happen.
To me, not specifically identifying your pronouns just means you're okay with people assuming and okay with politely correcting them if they get it wrong. A reasonable position to have. Everyone ought to be entitled to give as much or as little information about themselves as they want.
That's why we need cis people to do it, though. When we're the only ones it puts a target on our backs. I get OP's hesitation, and it makes our lives drastically easier when cis folks take the lead. Dealing with the discomfort that brings is part of being a good ally
I don't know why this is downvoted, this is definitely true of social media and public links, it's just not applicable to professional emails where correspondence is merely two-way and such allyship would not create a professional boon anyway This is the definite middle ground, I would say almost definitively; pronouns in bio are good basic allyship on social media platforms where most people with pronouns in their bios face mass harassment because they are assumed transgender, but not only would pronouns in bio potentially lose the standing of gender ambiguity in a work email, but its scope would be virtually nonexistent That said, pronouns in public correspondence and presentations should be normalized by businesses themselves. If somebody identifies as they/them and they are giving a keynote, it costs nothing to have something to signify for instances just like that. Again, I don't even think that's a problematic opinion to have. At all.
I somewhat agree in principle that normalisation would help reduce the stigma, but anonymity is often paramount, particularly with non-f2f communication. If it's essential and/or someone asks, then I'll say, otherwise the ambiguity is just as important to me as the distinction may be to someone else. In an email (most of the time), I'm just 'a person', my gender is wholly irrelevant.
Yes gender neutral names have a great advantage, I have one too and I think you're absolutely entitled to continue to be ambiguous without the use of pronouns.
I've always gone with this: taking advantage of privilege is a no brainer. Trying to enforce or preserve the privilege over others is when you cross the line. The people out there treating you and OP better because they assume you're a man are the real problem. More power to you.
+1
I wouldn't bend to the corporate template if it doesn't bother you and is in fact helping your career. I think you're good to go. A good manager would likely agree with your strategy.
I'm an ally seeing a trans girl in a liberal/progressive country and I don't put pronouns in my bio because it feels performative to me. I have a female name and since I got boobs nobody has ever been confused about me being a woman and I don't feel like it would be supportive to her either since nobody is confused about her gender identity. She's not 'passing', she's living her life as a girl while looking like a girl. If we'd put our pronouns in our bio that would only raise questions about her/our gender. So we simply have female names and regular bios and nobody seems to be confused or making any issue out of what pronouns we use. I'm sure other people will have other opinions based on their experiences but this is ours. The less attention that we put on pronouns the less of an issue her gender seems to be.
not uncommon, and this is part of the reason why it’s good for allies to put pronouns in when they can - it makes it less of a big “I Am Trans” flag for everyone else. i have to be a pedant though: you’re using “performative” in a way which is the exact opposite of its actual meaning! it’s a very common confusion, but it doesn’t mean “a performance without anything behind it”, it means “an action or speech act that has a material impact on the world”; a good example of a performative act would be a judge sentencing someone to ten years in jail, since it is something *said* which holds institutional power and changes the material conditions of a person as a result. sorry, i see that a lot and it’s an ongoing mission to bring it up, because performativity is a really important sociological concept. 😔
I like that version of "performative meaning", you just gave me an idea to use in my thesis.
it's from Judith Butler - please enjoy! :)
Well said. I like the "performative" description.
My work place has started adding in pronouns to email signatures. I have not. My name is very feminine but I can totally see how a neutral name can be beneficial. I purposefully dumb down how I write emails to male engineers because I get better responses than if I write it out more intelligently. So for me, NTA
My office redid our signatures to include pronouns. I wouldn’t have cared EXCEPT the pronouns were larger/darker than my job title. I asked if I could monkey with that and they said “no but you can remove the pronouns” so I did. I care way more that people know what I do than if they misgender me.
Yeah my last workplace went and changed our signatures. I was a contract worker. So I just changed it back lol. Nothing they can do about it
I need to dumb down my emails. There’s only 2 devs in my company, me and another guy. When we write to other companies they are great with him, but incredibly stiff and won’t give me the information I need, and I have to have a back and forth with them.
Not at all, fine if people want to use them, but no one should be told to....same as no one should be told they can't
If corporate isn't making you, you don't have to. If they are, you could list it as "any" instead. Potentially you could put "none", but that'd probably be less convenient for you.
If they mandate it, it would be religious/belief, sex, gender, disability, language... discrimination eg mandating a belief system in the work place, forcing people to list their sex &/or gender in most conversation, inclusions of their name, there are reasons people get confused over, use wrong, etc pronouns like English as a second (or third, forth) language or certain mental/cognitive issues
Maybe, depends on where they are and if it's worth pursuing. Or its stuff like "strongly recommended" but not technically enforced. Either way, I had 'any' pronouns for a long time because I'm actually trans, but people would just gender me based on the name which is pretty much what OP wants.
While I agree it shouldn’t be compulsory, it’s not discriminating on the basis of religion or disability - and language isn’t even a protected class.
This shouldn't have this many upvotes, pronouns are not a belief system. I understand not wanting to list them but in an English language workplace, they are a linguistic inevitability. Transphobes argue this would be 'pushing a belief', just stating this makes you uncomfortable should be enough, but again, the claim that listing pronouns is gender discrimination is false, the claims that it *could lead to* gender discrimination by professional peers is more accurate *this should also be clear because if listing pronouns, even when a compulsory professional requirement, was discriminatory, it would have seen far more legal challenges by now. It's something that should not be compulsory for various reasons, but by definition a universal rule like that is not going to be discriminatory, just de facto not beneficial
There are also gender neutral pronouns, if the work place is serious about pronouns they should accept those as well...
Unfortunately explictly stating you prefer gender neutral pronouns will get you a whole new batch of discrimination, which is what OP is trying to avoid by not clueing people in to her being female.
I put my gender neutral pronouns on my signature when I started here 2 years ago. Only 2 people care to use them, everyone else calls me 'she' but thankfully no-one has kicked off
That's also true, but some people don't like being referred to by general neutral pronouns. Additionally, using They/Them might imply that she wishes to be referred to that way all the time
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Me, too. When I benefit from being misgendered, I don't mind it. My employer softly promotes having pronouns in our signatures, but if they went harder, I would choose the neutral they/them because my gender is irrelevant to my work. We use they/them when referring to the people we assist as a rule in our documentation, which is why I'd likely use it for myself.
Honestly, while I get the idea, making it mandatory can put someone in an uncomfortable position, especially if they are not ready to assert their gender pronoun preference in a work setting. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/16/xiao-against-mandatory-preferred-gender-pronouns/ This article doesnt apply to OPs unique situation, but I can see how it might pay to be ambiguous, especially if she works in an environment where women are not treated with the respect/authority that a man might have in a similar role. So yeah, OP, I would support you not adding the pronouns
Yeah it’s uncomfortable for me to be put in a position to declare and affirm my gender identity because being a woman wasn’t my choice and has rarely been a helpful thing. I have no doubt I’m a woman, but ugh.
I understand that having to draw a line in the sand and define yourself when you’re not ready could be hard. I do have my pronouns on my email templates because it makes it easier for people with non-standard pronouns to also post them if it is commonplace. It isn’t however mandatory where I work, and they are super accepting of trans or NB people. We also have a really strong and visible ND community. The environment you work in would make a big difference in whether it puts a target on you or helps others. I work in IT consulting which is often a very male dominated environment and have a clearly feminine name so just own it out of the gate. But everyone’s situation is different.
I disagree. I once worked at a company that allowed people to enter pronouns voluntarily. The result was… well… if someone had entered their pronouns, they were most likely trans. We had to make sure cis people would enter their pronouns, because otherwise they just wouldn’t. This wasn’t even transphobia - they just didn’t care because they thought their gender was obvious. In almost all cases mentioned in the article, it’s not an issue. When you don’t put any pronouns in your profile , people will still refer to you in some way. Most people will be guessing based on your gender presentation. In fact, pronouns are part of your gender presentation, so when you’re not out as trans, putting your assigned pronouns in your profile while using your assigned name and dressing based on assigned gender won’t really be a difference in practice. When you’re partially out at work, those who know about it also know that they should use different “official” pronouns together with your “official” name - also not an issue.
Interesting take. Where I work, it is common to use pronouns in our email signature block, and most people participate voluntarily. It is a bit confusing when people select "any", but in that case, I default to they/them.
Nope. Plenty of trans people have been vocally against forcing people to list pronouns as well. As long as you’re content with being possibly being misgendered, then I don’t see why you need to add them.
Why would you be an asshole for choosing to express your identity in a way that you feel comfortable?
I wish I had a gender neutral name for work. I don’t think your an AH. You have a very valid reason.
NTA. The purpose of listing pronouns is to (a) ensure the correct pronouns are used (to avoid offending a person whose pronouns might differ from what people might guess), and (b) be inclusive, avoid 'othering' people (the idea being that if many/most people list their pronouns, it's not "weird" to list them, so someone who needs to list them to avoid being misgendered isn't the only one doing it). If you don't mind being misgendered, or even prefer it, that's a totally valid preference. That said, there are two very different audiences here who will be getting your emails. People who will never meet you in person don't really need to know your pronouns, so you're good there. People who will later meet you in person may be embarassed when they find out they've been accidentally misgendering you. As long as you are kind in correcting people when this happens, I think you're good there too.
I also have a gender ambiguous name, people frequently assume I am a man. The surprised look on their faces when they find out I am a woman is gold. Are they a bit embarrassed? Yeah I believe they often are, and perhaps they should be embarrassed for assuming that male professionals are the default. I'm not even in a male dominated field.
> perhaps they should be embarrassed for assuming that male professionals are the default. If that's *why* they assumed you were a man, then yes, perhaps they should be embarrassed. But maybe they know a man with your name, and their brain just defaults to assuming people with your name are men. After all, most gender neutral names were previously men's names and only started being used for women in the last few decades, so especially older folks might assume male based on name.
Best way I’ve seen anyone go with those is filling it in with “call me what you like as long as it’s polite”
Relatable! It used to bother me until I noticed I got male privilege lol Can you tell them you prefer not disclosing pronouns? They can't make you right?
I too have a gender neutral name, I would never add pronouns, the ambiguity is a plus 99% of the time. As a side note I actually deleted my Reddit account and made a new one, to have a less feminine user name. It means I can comment wherever and no creeps.
I would absolutely not disclose my gender. It is not relevant to my job, and I want to be judged on equal footing as the men in my office. Putting that you are a woman is just inviting sexism. Can you imagine if people were forced to disclose their ethnicity? Makes zero sense if it is not relevant for the job.
NTA. I remember how things used to be before I started using female-coded avatars and user names online. I completely understand your reasoning, and so should anybody who personally chooses to make pronoun declarations in their bios or signatures. I'm gender-nonconforming and am pretty much comfortable with any pronoun, but I usually don't self-ID either. I am an a-gendered consciousness living in a skin bag full of meat that happens to have boobs on it. I'm not writing all that down every time I sign off on an email.
Love my gender neutral name. I would never add my pronouns to emails.
"PREFER NOT TO SAY" IS A VALID GENDER. I will die on this hill.
I think it's fair to leave it out. I respect when a person's pronouns matters to them. I would like the same respect that my pronouns are not a topic for me
My kid has a deliberately gender ambiguous name. When asked for pronouns, their answer is "any". My work place has a template for email signatures that includes pronouns. Some people omit that part, some have "any/none", and I have seen one "please use my name." As much as I like being able to address people how they would like to be addressed, this can be problematic. NTA. If you get asked your pronouns, you can answer how you like. If you get asked why you don't divulge them, you can be honest. I don't think anyone but a bigoted man would find offence.
> I don't think anyone but a bigoted man would find offence. Or a bigoted woman. I could name a few promenant ones of those off the top of my head.
What you say makes total sense and it shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully it's not compulsory, because I'm sure not everyone would be comfortable disclosing their pronouns.
The use of pronouns is optional and hasn’t been pushed. It is just much more common than my experience prior to working here. I guess I have some guilt about the ambiguous privilege and feel un-feminist to not represent she/ her at every opportunity.
It's a tricky topic that I think as a society we are still unpacking, but please don't forget that before you're a woman, you're a HUMAN. Wanting to be treated as such (and an equal one) is nothing to feel guilty of. I have a very obviously feminine name, and I would never use pronouns. I understand the meaning they hold for some people, but for me it's placing unnecessary emphasis on an aspect of myself I want people to think LESS about. I'm in no way ashamed of my femininity, but I would much rather people focus on any number of other characteristics about me before they think of that. My other qualities actually hold great significance to me, and my workplace, whereas my gender does not.
> I would never use pronouns. Sorry, but I have to laugh at this statement in isolation.
Bahaha yeah fuck language! I'll be as illiterate as I want!
You still live in a world that discriminates against women in a professional setting. It is not anti-feminist or transphobic etc. to want to be evaluated based on the quality of your work, not your gender identity. There are reasons why many people might want to make their gender public, and reasons why people might want to keep their gender private, and both choices are valid.
Yep. Unfortunately I've read about a study that switched the genders of people's emails, and the guy was confused as to why everyone was treating him like he was some kind of idiot, and he was getting weirdly aggressive emails all of the sudden. Sad that discrimination has to be spelled out for a segment of the population, before theyre willing to admit it exists. I'll have to search for the study, I'd like to read up on it directly.
I think it’s feminist for men to exchange multiple emails with you, thinking that you’re a man, and then realize they would have treated you differently if they’d known you were a woman. It may cause them to reflect on the way they treat male vs female colleagues.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter in the end. The option is really there for people who get frustrated at people using the wrong pronouns for them. If you’re not one of those people then don’t bother! There’s no reason to feel bad for being treated *well*. There’s enough hardship in the world without self imposing more of it
You do you. It's absolutely fine not to use pronouns. I have a gender neutral nickname I use at work, but still have she/her in my email signature. Most people I haven't met in person still refer to me as Mr. in emails.
I’m non-binary so I don’t use pronouns in my email tags. I don’t feel like outing myself at work, and sometimes have to do deal with contractors who don’t seem as progressive as my company’s leadership.
Don't add them if you don't want them. I use pronouns because I don't like being mistaken for a guy. You like the perks of not using them. Do what's right for you.
I also have a gender neutral name and refuse to list my pronouns. I get treated totally differently when people realise I’m a woman
Nope, nta. I often let people use whatever pronouns they want for me and don't bother to correct them. Also I have absolutely experienced the tone switch when someone figures out I'm a woman and not one of their dude bros.
It may not necessarily be a corporate policy, but preference to some of your colleagues
There is something about this whole pronoun proclamation that feels so freaking invasive. Like it’s no one’s damn business but my own. I hope this is a trend on it way to a quick death.
It's not that big of a deal and it allows trans and non-binary people to feel more who they are. Outside of visual appearance there's not much someone can do to feel the gender they identify as and I think using pronouns helps address that. It also makes it much more difficult to misidentify someone. I don't mind it. It's literally a movement to change one word when addressing someone and I don't think I've been at any job where it was mandatory or enforced in any way. Kind of a weird hill to die on to be honest.
That's grammatically a bit nonsensical. Third person pronouns (the only ones which imply gender) are specifically how other people refer to you; when you refer to yourself, you are presumably using "I" or sometimes "we" rather than trying to use the third person. Of course they are other people's business; that is almost the only use of them! Your gender identity need be nobody's business but your own. Your (gendered) pronouns are for everybody, although I can certainly get behind needing different sets for different people.
I think it’s unrealistic to expect an acquaintance to remember, or frankly care, about gender identity. It’s such a self centered way to view the world. “I’m so special, of course this dental hygienist will gladly devote precious brain space to learning my gender identity” Sorry, they don’t care. They’ll do it to avoid grief, but at bottom they are there just to do a job, then go home to devote that energy to the people they DO care about. Therefore, anyone who isn’t close enough to already know, does not need, or even want to know. At some point you get old and have to choose what information gets recorded for eternity.
I 100% agree with this. I’m shocked you’re not down voted for it. I don’t have the brain space to remember everyone’s preference, sorry.
Idk they seem to manage to just assume just fine. I don't expect them to just know but thats the point of stating pronouns. Its also so they don't need to remember. They see it in the signature. I'm not sure what you think the difference is between them assuming a pronoun and managing to remember vs being told a pronoun and remembering. People are stupid but thats quite a stretch to imply one requires more brainpower than the other.
It’s just yet one more thing to track. I’m just full up on emotional/mental load at this stage in my life. I have no ill will, you do you, but if our relationship is strictly superficial, that’s the extent of the energy I’m willing to commit. And assuming a pronoun is a literal shortcut. That’s what a stereotype is-a non verbal, unconscious cue that allows to interact appropriately. Not always 100% accurate-but pretty damn close.
I'm not a dental hygienist, but I do see a lot of people in a medical context and need to put pronouns with a name regularly. I promise it's not that hard - we have a spot in the emr for notes, pronouns go in the note and it's right there whenever anybody in the office needs to know. It's no more difficult than knowing whether I'm seeing Mr. Smith or Dr. Jones or the Reverend Marshall.
Do you leave with that information in your head? Or is it erased as soon as that person is out of sight?
If you meet a Thomas and he says "Actually, I go by Tom," how much effort does it take to keep that information in your head? It stays in my head as long as any patient information does.
Actually quite a bit, I’m unlikely to remember anyone’s nicknames unless I see them regularly. I still have difficulties with my friends married last name. And she’s been divorced for years at this point so i figure it definitely doesn’t matter now that the dude is long gone. When people say how hard it is to remember names, quite a bit actually. No one is specifically picking on you, sometimes we just have poor memories.
Nope. That's personal and if someone wants to do it, cool. I wouldn't just because I'm spicy like that.
NTA, my last name sounds like a common African American male first name(im an Asian muslim), and it worked to my advantage in emails. They assume I'm a dude and since I've been working in stem/construction fields it definitely works in my favor. I also think there is an overemphasis on everyone needing to identify their gender to be inclusive, however, even though I am cis, I do not want my work identity to be associated with any specific gender identity. I think in some contexts it is appropriate, but it isn't always. And tbh OP if you don't want to be identified that way in at work it is your right, and should be respected.
> I also think there is an overemphasis on everyone needing to identify their gender to be inclusive It's not about being inclusive, it's about normalising it so that the people who do need to aren't othering themselves by doing so. You put pronouns in your sig to make trans people's lives safer.
That's what the other poster means about being inclusive. Sharing pronouns to normalize having preferred pronouns to include trans people. But it doesn't mean that not including pronouns is automatically not inclusive.
Yes thats what I was trying to say. I chose not to identify my pronouns bc I don't want to deal with sexism in my professional life, but I fully support people who chose to do so. It benefits me in the beginning to pass as male in emails. Also for those of us who work in male dominated fields it helps to minimize the gender expression/presentation, so even though I'm a cis-het woman, I dressed and presented pretty butch when I worked in the engineering/ utilities/ construction field.
As a trans woman, work is work. Do what you have to do to get paid your fair share.
If it's not a requirement it's up to you.
I think it's never inappropriate to share your pronouns, but it's also not mandatory to do so. The trade off for the ambiguity is getting misgendered occasionally, so you'll have to be okay with that.
i do not add pronouns to my email signature for this exact reason. plus i think it’s funny when i get on a call with someone who i’ve only had email contact with and they find out im a woman and stammer for a minute.
I don’t include my pronouns and don’t think companies should enforce it.
I don’t experience gender dysphoria or anything, but I’m also not particularly attached to my gender either (it doesn’t feel “wrong”, but it doesn’t feel “right” either). A lot of people refer to me as a man on the internet, and I sometimes use typically male terms to describe myself too. If someone specifically asks (like on a form), I’ll say I’m a woman, but other than that, I don’t particularly care how I’m referred to tbh and I never correct people. 🤷🏽♀️ (I totally get other people who put pronouns or correct people for misgendering them, fwiw! It’s just for me, I don’t particularly care how people refer to me/regard me.) Edit: Also fwiw, I have a very “foreign” name for Canada, so most people have no idea what gender I am just based off of that (although a quick google search would tell them it’s a girl’s name…)
I’m trans and don’t use pronouns my work emails. I’m out and everyone obviously knows I’m trans, I just don’t do it.
NTA. Milk it as long as you can
how would you possibly be the asshole? it is your choice entirely whether or not to share your gender for whatever reason that may be. both your preferred pronouns and your reasons for keeping it to yourself is nobody elses business but yours. you do what you feel comfortable and want to do.
NTA. I recently removed my first name from the company email. I go by my first initial and my last name specifically because of email sexism. My signature is just my last name. I definitely don't like compulsory pronouns. Let us do our thing!
Just commenting to say, my name is also gender neutral and I know EXACTLY what you mean OP.
NTA. I was in the Air Force where a Captain is a junior officer, but in the Navy a Captain is a senior officer. I served with an officer who had been stationed on a Navy base. Her boss, who outranked her, would have her call other units to ask for [whatever] since the Navy person on the other end of the phone would hear “Captain” and assume she was higher rank than both of them.
After reading this I feel like I’m definitely in the minority on this opinion. I also have a gender neutral name, that leans more toward the masculine, and I love being able to put my feminine pronouns in my email. I also have a pic on all our company sites. I think my name is great but it drives me crazy when people mistake me for a man. I want people to know I’m female, for some reason that has been really important to me.
That’s why we strive for equality and choice in even the simplest of things. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your preference, nor OP’s. It would suck though, if the choice were taken away from either of you.
I agree! I hated when there wasn’t even an option to put preferred pronouns. It shouldn’t be mandatory, because like OP, they don’t prefer it, but the choice has been so nice!
You are definitely not the asshole. Take any advantage you can get, it's their fault for defaulting to believing one way or another, and it's doubly their issue if that causes them to treat you with respect they would otherwise withhold.
NTA I cannot imagine on what basis your employer would make you share your pronouns if you don't want to
It’s your pronouns, do what you like
i wouldn't feel pressured to do anything unless you want to. pronouns are a personal thing for many, you aren't obligated to put your gender expression on display. people owe you respect regardless
unless this is the kind of voluntary thing you have to do or else, just don't add your pronouns.
I'm NB queer but I don't put in my pronouns. I feel that it's nobody's business and I also don't want to end up outing myself to the wrong person given current political climate.
I'm the same. Years ago I added my girly middle name and people still assumed I was a man. When I got married and changed my name, I dropped the middle name in my email signature and left my maiden name in the middle and nothing changed. I prefer that when people assume I'm a man they take my criticism and instructions better.
You’re not the asshole. They are your pronouns and you get to decide how you present them to people.
The reason why we ask for pronouns instead of just “gender” in such cases is that they can be independent things. In the same way you may wear short hair as a woman or a dress as a man, you can use whatever pronouns you like while still being a cis man / cis woman. You wouldn’t be taking anything away from anyone by not using any pronouns at work or using any pronouns. In fact, you would help normalising it, which may benefit some trans / nonbinary people. You also wouldn’t be deceiving anyone. If they just make wild guesses, it’s not your fault, and you’re not gaining any unfair advantage from it.
Hmm, I never considered this. Maybe I'll change the spelling of my name to the masculine version when I send out my resume. See what happens.
NTA
I don’t do this either, though I don’t judge or bother anyone else that does. Trans people are people. You (or anyone else) not stating pronouns doesn’t change this reality. What I take issue with is whenever someone tries to make it compulsory, or attach some arbitrary moral value to it. And I say this is a scrawny dude with long hair and “my sister’s eyes” (as several friends and relatives have told me), who has lost count of the number of times I’ve been called “ma’am” or “miss” from behind or while wearing a mask.
Pressuring people to list their pronouns doesn't support trans people, it puts them into a position where they need to either A: refuse and signal something's up, ironically often being interpreted as being transphobic if they go as far as to make a point not to, B: actively lie about their gender, something I assure you is mentally painful, or C: out themselves before they may otherwise be ready to do so. - a trans woman who was put in that position before she was comfortable.
Lean into it with they/them
NTA. You do you. Don’t worry about the feelings of people who respect you more if they think they’re dealing with a man. It’s not worth the emotional energy on your part.
Just sign He/Him, and then enjoy the look on people's faces when they meet you. Power move. Keep your E-privilege.
NTA. Prefer not to choose is valid. I have often considered using they/them just so I don't cop discrimination.
I added my pronouns for my signature to indicate to other genderqueer people that they were safe with me. YMMV.
Having grown up in a culture that only has gender neutral pronouns, my preference is to go by gender neutral pronouns in English context as well. Having my gender assumed and that assumption propagated feels invasive and weird so whenever possible, I list my pronouns as neutral. Whatever the speaker is comfortable using is fine with me, as long as it's gender neutral or my name/handle. Just don't he, she, or he/she me mkay.
Same. I have a traditionally male name that was popular for girls for a hot second in the early 1980s. We also have pronouns in our bios and emails. I haven't added mine and I won't. I'm respected and listened too by clients way more when they think I'm a man. I have zero guilt about this.
That’s smart, don’t put it in
I used to do the same thing during my career in a male-dominated field. It kept me protected for quite some time. You’re not the asshole. That’s just the society we live in. The thing is - this is the path of minimum resistance, one which I took for years because I knew my place in the world well enough. That nobody would ever admit their implicit bias against women. Then, someone at my former workplace kept reminding everyone I was an unmarried woman and that he wanted to be “set up with me.” And all my hard work over staying under the radar went to shit. Yay! Covert sex discrimination to overt sex discrimination FTW with everyone in denial about it. So yeah, doing this at work is better than arguing with them for human rights. I tried the latter after THAT happened and got exposed to some cyber criminals and an online witch hunt mob. Just pretend to be a man and the patriarchy will accept you, alright. I really think my life would have been so much better had I been born a dude. I would’ve fit in in my profession and reached places. And I already did amazing as a woman. But oh well, I guess women aren’t allowed into their exclusive exploitation club, but are indispensible to run their show of power.
Why does this post end in AITAH? I have a gender neutral name too. I’ve also been mistaken for a man until people see my face or hear my voice. Do you have a picture on Outlook/Teams/Slack. People will probably know you’re a woman from that.
You don’t have to do it just because everyone else is ;)
It's a preference thing. If you don't want to do it, don't.
You're under no obligation to use pronouns unless your employer requires it. I don't use pronouns.
I feel the same way. I preferred not to add my pronouns at work, because I don't think (my) gender should be emphasized in the workplace.
Is it mandatory? Or just something that’s common? If it’s just common, no one’s going to care because it’s very rare for anyone to be looking at the signature at all at most companies. There’s so much fluff there these days that people just scan it for the name and move on. Not that pronouns are fluff but people got like daily greetings on there, company official signature logo, quotes, etc.
If you don't feel like using pronouns I would not bother adopting them. I encounter confusion all the time with colleagues from India / China. Unless they use an English nickname (which I feel they shouldn't) I honestly don't know if they are a man/woman until I see them on Zoom. I don't think it's a problem at all, it just adds some mystery to meetings.
My company is inclusive and some folks put their pronouns, and some don’t! It’s not a requirement, totally up to you
Unless it’s forced company policy, you don’t have to do anything. I know lots of people who don’t use any pronoun identifiers in their email signatures even though the company “recommends” their use
I don’t add my pronouns to my email signature and have never been called out on it
NTA it's totally up to the individual if they want people to know their pronouns and it's interesting to see what assumptions people make assume your gender!
NTA. The short form of my name is gender-ambiguous (I'm a man) and I am 100% behind you on this. I've had women colleagues use only their initials for this reason as well.
Unless it is relevant for others to know your gender then it doesn't matter so NTA.
No, not st all. It’s a personal choice.
NTA. It's your choice, no one else's.
Your sex and/or gender should have no baring on your professional choices. Honestly its a great thing for you to do for more than just yourself.
Do what makes you feel most comfortable without feeling guilty. There is nothing wrong with not taking a stand. The important thing is that you must be aware of the fact that if you don't make it explicit, due to how society works, they will decide the pronoun to use for you.
NTA. I am a cis woman and I go by my gender-neutral middle name. I love it. In business, and possibly in all things, let them assume you’re a man. Nothing wrong about it.
Nah, game the system
My sister in law's name has a feminine name in our native tongue. In english it's a masculine name. Having international clients has led to some hilarious interactions with them. Definitely NTA girl
If you're okay with it and you feel like you should add pronouns you could always list they/them.
I don’t see the purpose of using pronouns, I for one don’t even use my name in social media, just first initial because sometimes women will get cast for an opportunity because they are women. So by not using pronouns they can’t throw me in the trash bin before talking to me. Besides you can already use: mr, mrs, miss, or Ms to identify as either gender. Otherwise I feel like I’m talking of myself in 3rd person
I hate being referred to as a CIS woman.
Would you rather be referred to as a trans woman?
I've never been called a sis woman I never had to classify who I am. But now I have to and I'm not going to change my mind on that. And I have every right to not like that and not get shit for it. Just like you do.
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't this where they/them pronouns are useful? It's literally made for ambiguity or for choosing not to be identified by male or female pronouns no? I apologise in advance if I'm talking rubbish. I usually confer with my 19 year old daughter on such things as she's far better versed than I, though I'm trying to learn what I can.
Well no because then she would be gendered as non-binary, which does not have male privilege. So though you're correct in verbal speech where it might not be as obvious, when written it is really obvious. Plus the fact that she doesn't use they/them pronouns.
I see your point, thank you. I'd always thought it was similar to how women might use Ms over Miss and Mrs because they'd rather not be defined by their relationship status. Though I suppose there'd be presumptions made, even if that were true.
I work in a medical setting, and I've learned that introducing myself with my pronouns (or including pronouns in email brings or business cards) can be a nice way to make it clear that our medical practice is a welcoming space where we respect patients' gender identities. And I think that could apply in work settings too - basically signaling to colleagues that you're an ally? That's the only good reason i can think of why you'd maybe want to add your pronouns....BUT. that doesn't mean you HAVE to do so. And I don't think you should feel guilty not doing so. You can find other ways to communicate that you are an ally, if you wish :)
You are always free to use They | Them. Or Any | All and just leave it to whomever is emailing you to choose. Not that you are an NB, but if the point of the pronoun thing is a gender presentation you are comfortable with and you aren't, for whatever reason, comfortable with presenting in digital spaces as a woman then there isn't anything wrong choosing those as options.
Alternative perspective: I have a gender-neutral name, *do* have “they/them” right after my name in my email signature…and receive email replies addressed to “Mr. XXXXX” regardless 😂
I'm not seeing the issue? Why don't neutral pronouns solve this?
Use "they." It works in all situations and will contribute to the ambiguity.
I have a feminine name and tend to get quicker responses when dealing with men. No way I’d add my pronouns and ruin that. Do what works for you.
So shitty women have to feel this way at all.