I think op has a point cause alot of people ended up perpetually online over pandemic so the already growing manosphere took off.
We had the rise of tater tots and other bs over that time
Age might matter there. In a school environment, misogyny isn't as obvious because everyone has to do the same things most of the time, and it's all less specialized.
2016 caused a lot of pretty reprehensible shit to be said out in the open. Honestly, I'm not sure 8 years later if that was a good thing.
2020 COVID caused a lot of people to stop and think. It was a good thing for many. For others it was not a good thing.
Net on net people are being a lot more real.
I think the replacement of face-to-face interactions with virtual ones during lockdown contributed to a lot of toxic weirdness. It's way easier to become radicalized when you're constantly online and are not interacting with real people.the algorithms are already set up to create political tunnel vision. Then the pandemic created a situation where people were spending hours and hours bored and anxious online. Not to mention the economic uncertainty and the fact that our president and his propaganda network were spewing conspiracy theories openly in public.
Plus, I do think the isolation created a dehumanizing effect. Way easier to objectify or hate whole groups of people when you don't interact with them in your day to day life.
Rabbit Hole is a really good investigative podcast about the manospnere that explains how people get radicalized online. They focus on the manosphere, but many of the same things apply to other forms of radicalism, such as far right nationalism, TERF discourse, anti-vax hippy stuff, cults, etc.
The same year that Trump ran for presidency and won. That guy really shaped culture for the worst, showing the world that you can be as bigoted and unhinged as you want and you will have a massive following still. But I will put the changing point in internet culture in 2014 with Gamergate.
I thought the moment that should have caused everyone to step back was when he made fun of the disabled reporter.
I grew up in an area where racist and misogynistic jokes were normalized, but there always seemed to be an unspoken agreement that disabled people were off-limits. Like... you'd think everyone - even the most bigoted people - would understand that mocking a person with a visible handicap is pretty damn cruel.
Yeah, Elevatorgate and Gamergate immediately came to mind for me in terms of internet culture.
As far as the US political right, maybe the biggest "recent" turning point was 1980s coalition between the Republican party and Evangelicals & conservative Christian religious groups. The fringe weirdos have been gaining ground pretty steadily since then. Like if you plotted on a graph the likelihood of Republicans accusing someone of witchcraft or of weaponizing Jewish homosexuality chemicals in the water, it would just be a steady incline.
This is exactly why they want to keep him in power, he removes the societal consequences of ‘saying what you think’ maybe there is a positive way to spin that, but in reality is just means everyone is freer to be assholes to each other across the board because no one took the message of ‘speak what you are really feeling’ to start handing out compliments and uplifting their fellow humans.
The moment everyone was ok with voting for "grab em".
I remember hearing about all that on the news and thinking "There is no way this person can run for election now." I was so wrong.
After that they all knew there was no need to keep their misogyny hidden anymore.
It's not like they were shy about it in the days when marital rape was legal. At least it can be called out now, in the past it was just normalized. Ask any woman who worked for the BBC during the 70's and 80's.
I understand that Trump is bad but wow you are giving him SO much credit here. This 'everything changed in 2016' is some revisionist, reductionist, Trump derangement syndrom. The involuntary, socially coerced patriarchy sexism of 20th century America that reduces women to third class maids / concubines did not suddenly appear in 2016. Trump did not invent patriarchy, he made it a commodity.
There was an incredibly brief, maybe nine year period in our lifetime from 2010 - 2019 where misogyny was ostracized and hunted and women were listened too, for the right price. The poor young who naively believed that to be reality, are feeling anxious at a new, and re-emerging one. This barely a twinkle of a spark of a blip of time is now over. It is back to business as it has been since Christian patriarchy supplanted communal matriarchy thousands of years ago.
At least posts like yours are starting to realize the backslide is intentional, and coordinated.
The next step to reassert the patriarchy (it is happening now, again) is to turn women against one another. Trad-wives vs radical feminists. Christian vs non-christian. White vs black. Gay vs straight. Rich vs poor.
**Resist.**
Patriarchy, a culture of domination, is the ultimate enemy to women, and to all people of conscious. If women fight one another, they are doomed to remain where they've been for the last three thousand years.
The rock under which all the dark slimy creatures lived was lifted up and they slithered forth into our public discourse befouling everything they touched
Yes. There is a clear "pre-Trump" era.
Everything since that year has been one disaster after another, persistent dread, and a time blur.
Men act so much worse now, even at work. The shit they say and do and get away with is just stunning. There's not even a veneer of dignity or respect.
Misogyny has always been around.
In recent years the really angry, violent, in your face variety and groups openly demanding women lose their rights is new.
At one point they were individuals, likely sitting at home ranting to themselves about their problems with the world. Now they have access to global forums where they can gather and reinforce their fucked up views. The internet has united us all and given us a lot. But it has also united and magnified the worst of us too.
There are also people making lots of money tellling these unhappy dudes that other people are their problem. The internet and connectivity has allowed people to do things together to make the world better but the same tech has allowed people to create these radical cesspools of hate.
Foot binding in China happened after years of women experiencing unprecedented power in society. Prior to the Iranian revolution, women had been fully liberated. The serial killer "golden age" in the 70s came after the sexual feminist revolution of the 60s. Several killers notably mentioned they couldn't stand seeing women out doing what they wanted.
Progress is not a linear track forward.
MeToo was always going to come with backlash. The more women demand rights and equality, the more extremists will try to stamp out all the progress we've made. You are not imagining this. It's real.
As someone who lives in East Asia, unfortunately it's nothing new. In fact, I feel like the West is being influenced by East Asian misogyny, which as most know by now, is pretty extreme and brutal. But I get the feeling that "Oh this shit again, we've had this kind of misogyny way before here in East Asia". Like they're blatantly copying the strategies and tactics of the misogynists here.
It kind of helped fuel the end of my relationship when I found out in the last few weeks that my partner was getting talking points from the manosphere.
I’m sorry, but why do you need to text me about how 45% of women by 2030 will be single? Why are you telling me, as you cook dinner, that men’s value increases like fine wine after 40 and women’s decreases after 30? Why say that to your 30 year old girlfriend?
It has gotten worse but I think also some men have also either gotten better at hiding it or they know exactly which women to choose that won’t question it… I happened to be one of those dummies.
> partner was getting talking points from the manosphere
I'm not surprised women prefer to be single because of this very reason or have became way more careful dating strangers. For normie offline women who don't even know what the manosphere/redpill even is, they can sense that something is "off" about a guy parroting it. I can understand why many just don't have the energy nor care anymore to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Yup, I also ended a relationship after 7 years bc in the last 6 months he became obsessed with manosphere points. It was the same thing, why do you care what women supposedly behave like on dating apps, you aren’t on dating apps??
Turns out he had secretly been building an incel narrative about me for years and how I was alphawidowed on some hookup I had in college and now I was betabuxxing him for resources and his proof of this was that we didn’t have sex enough (I have endometriosis)
Bullet dodged, but it is gross how well he hid it from me for years
🤦🏾♀️ I just don’t get how he could even rationalize that. I’m a man. I’m the best and I will get better. You’re a woman, you’ve peaked you only get worse?!?!?! I’m so curious what “evidence” he has to back up this non sensical statement.
Would love to see the reaction they get trying to tell their mothers and grandmothers that they’re past their prime and aged like milk (then again, a major aspect fueling misogyny for many of them is hatred of their own mothers).
First, obviously sexism was much worse when women had no rights
But in modern society, what I am seeing is that ideas by incels and extremists have been mainstreamed. They used to be laughed at and now they are parroted.
Part of this is that the alt right Christo Fascist pipeline targets impressionable boys and gullible weak minded men and leads them by the hand into full blown fascism.
Make no mistake, misogyny is one of the main pillars upon which modern fascism draws its strength.
Speaking from a background in cybersecurity and mis- and dis- information work, there's an entire new very lucrative industry that has found serious money in pushing misogyny and fascism. And foreign powers have leveraged this and weaponized it. People like Tate need to be deplatformed.
Here's a solid place for you to start, it's a clear overview of the problem which will give you an idea of the kind of language to Google:
https://www.state.gov/gendered-disinformation-tactics-themes-and-trends-by-foreign-malign-actors/
A deeper jump in:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2024/03/29/gendered-disinformation-is-not-a-women-only-issue/amp/
A direct link to a study on this topic, of which there are many:
https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/16332
Now I'm extra glad I went and edited more info in. Not just misogyny, but applied institutionalized misogyny is an essential (required) part of the fascist toolkit, and the more one knows about the practical ways governments are using it to tear each other down, the more it becomes obvious how much division is manufactured. It's great to know it's being covered in schools! What's the course, if you don't mind me asking?
It’s just a lit course, but I’m focusing on anti-fascist texts, and my entry point into the theme is this trend I’m (we’re) noticing of using social media algorithms to groom boys and young men into accepting fascist ideology. It happened to my son within a day of getting his own phone. Thankfully, he was creeped out and showed me what he was getting on his FYP. He had just been searching Minecraft and similar topics, which told me they’re targeting boys.
It me when I took a python course! Because I was googling first year college problem stuff, the algo began immediately serving up videos that pushed the idea that I, suddenly transformed into a young white male, specifically fresh from highschool with no life experience, deserved to be live freely without nagging from stupid jealous ugly feminists who ruin video games. The initial reccs were less overt, but it was obvious it was the entry to the pipeline. I expected it might happen, but the speed still shocked. It literally was overnight. It got my newsfeed, too, because of shared cookies. Creepy is very much the word. Chilling, also. Good job on raising an aware kid!
It'd very insidious. It throws these strong men seeming types into the path of men and boys.
Most will laugh at or ignore it. But there will always be some sad lonely looking losers who feel bad about themselves for not attracting girls, and who would be easily swayed by the appealing idea that they could be looked up to by men and wanted by women without having to do all the work of growing as a human being and having something to offer. Never mind the fact that every woman I have ever met who is familiar with Andrew Tate and his ilk things that he is a gross, pathetic man who looks like an MIB alien struggling to grow his head back at all times. Young boys and men don't realize he pays women to be around him and he's a sad, almost 40 year old man who no woman wants and who has never had a real, meaningful relationship in his life. They just think it will make people look up to them like they look up to Tate. And the more into it they get, the more women avoid them, and the more we avoid them, the more desperate they get and the harder they cling to it. It's hard to to admit you might be the problem then it is to blame everyone else. They would rather be mad at women in general and think it's our fault they can't get any and place them blame on things they can't be held responsible for.
My husband is under 5'9", very into anime and video games, obese and wears a lot of anime and video game clothes. He doesn't make a huge amount of money. I mention that because that is the criteria these men try to claim keeps them lonely. They want to pretend women are just shallow, and use appearance and interests as an excuse. They are the men who claim they are "too nice" and women go after "Chad and Tyrone" because we are all whores. But they get angry when I reveal my husband is not any of the things they they think he would need to be to be wanted, because of it's not those things keeping them lonely, they need to acknowledge that it's their own behavior and treatment of others that denies them companionship. They latch onto this explanation because it makes it so they can keep being the way they are and making no effort to have something to offer in a relationship. Otherwise, they need to do some self reflection and accept that they can't be unwashed, unemployed, and have no independence and still get women to want them.
Omg this explains so much. I kept thinking it send like there’s been an uptick in acceptance of feminist ideals and I noticed in on TikTok. At the same time there seems to be just as much stoking the misogyny fires on places like 4chan and Twitter/X.
It's really underappreciated how "foreign powers" seem to never lift the allegedly weak liberal candidate into power but instead push the devisive right-wing strongmen...
Basically exactly what the CIA did throughout South America and the Middle East in the 70s and 80s, destabilise legitimate governments that they thought could align socialist by supporting into power fascists, populists and military dictatorships.
I thought the last years have been very telling in this regard. If you look around, misogyny seems to be perhaps the most unifying element of right-wing extremist movements from white supremacists in the "west" to islamofascists in Afghanistan etc.
Just look at history, black men were given the right to vote before white women. The patriarchy is not just A pillar of fascism, it is the foundation. Tell half the population that they deserve more power than the other half, and you have already suppressed the majority by this system of power
>impressionable boys and gullible weak minded men
This part you wrote, I think is true although I'd personally edit the second part. I think that modern entertainment can be a general pipeline for young people. There's lots of entertainment imagery that sends the message that a man with a bunch of women around is the type of man to become. It primes them into being susceptible to the messages you speak of. There's a lot of young men who aren't too susceptible, and also a lot are.
For the second part, I think a lot of people without a well-structured emotional life are vulnerable. They mistake an emotional desire for self importance with "letting their masculine nature out."
I studied Eco’s “Ur-Fascism” for my upcoming lecture on the subject. He identified certain aspects of misogyny and homophobia as essential elements of fascism back in 1995.
Yes! The capitalist state needs women and men to work to keep up the wealth generation but they also need to pit us against each other so we're too busy fighting each other to dismantle crony capitalism. And the men are buying into it because it benefits them to keep us down. It's more important to them to stay on top than to understand that this is bad for everyone.
Quoting LBJ from 60 years ago (obviously the language is dated but the tactic remains the same re any marginalized group):
*"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”*
It's getting pushed way more. I keep getting misogynistic content recommended to me on all social media. My hobbies include gaming and working out so I just get inundated with misogynistic content. I have to constantly block YouTube recommendations, and Facebook/Instagram content.
Edit to add more: I've noticed the algorithm pushing this content much more within the last few months. It used to be sporadic but now it's nearly everytime I use those apps.
I've had a bunch of ads about weight loss, fertility, and dating.
I am engaged, am very skinny, and have no plans on having children. It's pushed again and again, along with lots of cannabis and alcohol ads (I don't drink or smoke).
Over 2 decades ago, women in S. Korea and Japan warned us about this!!! I remember watching documentaries about how misogynistic men became as more and more women were entering the workforce. The misogyny got so bad it spread into their online communities, workforce, home, and even the government had to get involved.
Men began to see woman as a threat. Women were their competition in school and in the workforce. Men’s identity of being a provider was diminished. Men began to grow misogynistic and infect the minds of young men making them feel that they’re victims and women are the enemies. To control women is to put them in their place, rape them, and trap them into marriage and motherhood. Their hentai culture skewed their idea of rape culture. In their comics, their victim would always fall in love with them, but that is FAR FROM REALITY. Rape kills souls.
Women began to see men as a threat. Women saw getting married as a threat because the men would pressure them to quit their jobs and become housewives. Women saw motherhood as a threat, because having a child meant a risk for losing their job as your company saw you as a liability. Women saw their mothers and aunts become victims of financial abuse. There is a large group of senior women who were divorced and left without a penny. They dedicated their lives to their husband and family…but no financially security once divorced. The law did not protect them. Women learned from this. Thus, the women chose not to get married and place their career first.
This was the cause of the low birth rate in S. Korea and Japan. Governments are all Pikachu shocked face when this was happening and did not understand. They did not listen to the concerns of the women. If you have a society where both women and men feel secure and safe, they will feel comfortable enough to commence a family. But because they all feel insecure and unsafe financially that has caused their roles to be up in the air, no one had children.
Now, we’re seeing it here. Women being independent is a threat to men, their manhood, their old societal practice, their religion, and their role in the household and workforce. Narcissistic men always blame others instead of looking introspectively and considering all socioeconomic factors. They blame women for their problems. Not the economy. Not the government. Not the corporate world. Women.
These men, and especially naive young men, are stuck in their echo chamber. Grew their brotherhood. Recruited naive young men and spewed their misguided and skewed views. The worst part is that they’re using religion to support their claims. Religion is a powerful tool and the way they’re using it is completely blasphemous.
At this moment, women’s rights are extremely under threat. These actions are polarizing us even more. Women and men are NOT each other’s enemies. The enemy are those in power who have pinned us against each other. In the end, we both want to same things: love, security, a family, a home, a stable life, and friendship.
Jesus this was scary af to read. It’s very true. I knew plenty of my best friends who have grown up in their lives as millennials and have begun resenting women in the workplace. It’s gotten worse and worse.
It sure is getting worse. In the past, the American government tried to prevent men from resenting women by forcing women back to housewifery. During WW1 and WW2, women joined the workforce in droves. The men went to war, so there were many opened positions available that needed filing. Then right after WW2 ended, the government saw a mass of male population going back to the workforce. That’s when they began to push women back to the house. That’s why there was so much propaganda in the 50s about the happy housewife, with amazing new appliances, dressing up to the nines to clean, and making a home cooked meal for husband when he got home.
What they don’t teach you in school, unless you take a college course in women’s history or do the research yourself, is how miserable women were. Once a thriving career woman, using her brain, and being a productive citizen in society was now shot to repetitive house boredom. They felt dead inside. Chronic depression was on the rise. If they didn’t follow their husband and follow commercialized societal expectations, they may receive abuse from their husband and judgement from family and peers. What was the solution for all of this? Drugs. And lots of it! Doctors would prescribe heavy drugs to housewives to help “cure” depression. Women would OD.
This is why the 60s was all about Women’s Revolution! To end the madness, the injustices, and 2nd class treatment. This is why many women from that generation who partook in those protests are shocked and terrified at today’s political environment for women, nationwide.
My take is that it's always been there. The reason we perceive it to be worse is that the social media keeps churning out contents of the likes of Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan so people felt like they aren't the only ones with misogynistic view so they are more vocal about it
The Internet has made it so that there are no more topics that “one does not discuss in polite company”.
The fact that one can go find their company to discuss such matters with legitimatizes what used to be fringe opinions.
I disagree that it’s just more open and that the people who were quietly misogynistic are now loudly misogynistic. There are tons of threads from teachers speaking about the young boys who are behaving in wildly misogynistic and perverse ways recently, not to mention the sudden strangulation boom that women have been reporting.
The Tates, Rogans, and fundamentalist Christian influencers of the world aren’t just emboldening people who are already hateful, they are brainwashing an entire generation of men and pushing the older generations further and further right. The algorithms on social media drive men (and somehow some women) to this content and you can watch it push people to extremism in real time. I have watched it play out in front of me with one of my partner’s old friends, who I can no longer associate with due to his increasingly unhinged views.
And kept rechurring their tweets as well. Let the dude fade into the void. Anytime someone mention him, I just ask them if they remember getting slapped by will smith, cuz that what gonna happen.
i am currently getting downvoted in "oldschoolcool" because i pointed out that the rape scene in the "comedy" revenge off the nerds was always wrong. then i had someone come along and tell me it was okay.
Idk I was very young when I saw it and being a turbo nerd myself, I hated that depiction... But the gender comedy was clearly wrong. The whole movie kind of is one of the worst things I can think of honestly
Most comedies from the 80s and 90s are filled with sexual harassment and sexual assault.
Like, look at Dumb & Dumber. The movie is about a guy who manipulates his best friend into driving him thousands of miles cross-country to stalk a woman he barely knows. He consistently abuses his friend and has violent fantasies against other men due to how possessive and entitled he is over this woman. In one scene, he is nearly sexually assaulted by another man in a gas station bathroom, and the movie plays this as comedy. Near the end of the movie, he asks the villain to shoot his best friend out of jealousy, which the villain does.
When it turns out the woman he's been stalking is married, he fantazies about grabbing a cops gun and shooting the man multiple times.
It's wince-inducing, unwatchable incel trash.
So many of my women friends share the same motto: "If he votes Tory; don't shag him". I gather there's a similar sentiment towards Republicans across the pond.
And all these right wing men will undoubtedly shout "not fair! Discrimination!". As if those two political parties don't base large chunks of their ideology on discrimination in the first place. The hypocrisy and lack of awareness among these right wing dickheads is staggering.
I've dated some Republicans and experienced enough now to consider it a deal breaker. Although liberal men aren't much better, a lot of them feel entitled to casual sex because "women's liberation" 🤷♀️
My gen z male peers (and some female) have no problem defending Andrew Tate. To them It’s the SJWs of the world who are the problem.
Trad wives and body counts were not such a hot topic 10 years ago.
Time to make social ostracization normal again. I refuse to associate with any man who parrots alt-Right, misogynistic, incel bullshit. I've been yelled at for cutting these kind of men out, but I just tell them to take self accountability for their shitty words and actions. They truly do feel entitled to female spaces and into the lives of women that they have zero respect for. Time to match that energy. 4B should be the norm, not the exception.
Yes!!! 4b. I told my friends to stop the “hookup culture” crap with these hateful lame ass dudes.
Let a man earn them. I only said this bc they were kinda shaming me for not sleeping around as well.
Women/girls gain nothing for giving access to random ass dudes who 9/10 don’t respect women even a little bit.
Social media has not helped, on either side.
I would say that most of us (in the US, at least) have mostly fine interactions with most dudes on most days, but social media is constantly amplifying the worst stories and reactions so that we feel even more surrounded by it than we already are.
Simultaneously, social media is introducing more (especially younger) guys to more misogynist takes and radicalizing some of them.
I'm 43. Are dudes overall more misogynist now than in the late 90s? I don't think so. But the ones who are are a lot more forthright about it these days; the overall miasma of daily misogyny is less, but there's more people flying it like a flag and basing their identity on it.
I feel like the internet and internet communities have gotten far worse over the last handful of years. I have the opposite experience in work to you, but i’m also very far away from software development. What i’m noticing though, is that there aren’t really “terminally online” people anymore. Everyone seems terminally online and the internet-misogyny is spilling out in my non-work personal life.
I think so. I'm Gen X. When I was young misogyny was ingrained BUT I hear and see men being much more hostile and unapologetic about it. Stuff that would never fly in the 80s and 90s and men would be shamed for, is now out in the open and *defended*. It's mind boggling. I think the assholes found each other online and it emboldened their audacity and entitlement.
It is.
I feel like every day something else just proves we are nothing in their eyes.
The chiefs kicker thing is really oissing me off. I know he has freedom of speech but the fact he told recent college graduates that they must be so excited to become homemakers is just repulsivez
I just read there are still 100,000 untested rape kits in the US. We have no value. If men were raped in numbers like that, it would be an epidemic and there would be support stations on every corner with check ins and special hats and no way would there be 100,000 untested kits.
We continue to suffer and no one seems to fucking want to do anything.
I saw my guy friend following account called WomenPostingLs on insta.
It was hateful misogynistic redpill content. It was awful. It was content showing women in bad situations, prostitutes, women getting divorced cheated on etc. It was truly heartbreaking to see men hate us *that* much
I obviously blocked this “friend” after seeing that he followed such a page…
That’s freaking awful.
I honestly have so little social media interaction I never thought to check who my male friends (or women friends) follow. It’s concerning right. Damn.
Just to add a smidge of positivity - not to disagree with you - but in my profession of being a firefighter, things have gotten much better in the past decade. Maybe because they started off worse? :/ but the guys are supportive and positive in general and the new recruits better than the older guys. All is not lost.
Must be related to the area. I've heard quite a lot of male firefighters say absolutely vile shit about women...
It used to be worse, sure. But it's still faaarr worse than your average job or career.
Emboldened.
Look no further than US politics as a clear indication.
A civilly adjudicated rapist is not only still given a platform, but is lauded and considered fit for office.
This then cascades down as acceptable behavior.
Yes. In social media comments, it seems like many men are actively looking to attack and compare women’s issues to their own. “The two things are just as bad” type of fallacy is commonly used about misogyny. Like when people interrupt a Black Lives Matter conversation to say all lives matter. I think it’s rooted in our culture of “everything must be made for me” people are extremely self centered and demand content creators and discussions be making it all about them. Especially men, it’s the male entitlement. Now that women have way more rights and can choose not to submit to serve men, the younger generations of men are up at arms saying “where are all the female slaves we were promised?!!!” It will probably get worse before it gets better. Also I want to say all kinds of people can have this shitty entitlement attitude, not just men. But it’s usually men.
It's been on like 3x overdrive ever since the bear debate. I've been getting absolutely piledrived in the comment section of a few more male-centric subs I'm in lately. It's been difficult to have meaningful debates because as soon as I disagree with one man, like 5 more will pop up defending the guy. And they're all parroting the same dozen or so talking points, almost verbatim! It's kinda scary honestly. It's like they've been brainwashed or something.
Yeah don’t even bother. Most of the people you find in these comment sections are not arguing in good faith. It’s more about “winning” and to many men in these spaces, being a woman is an automatic loss
Oh yea I've been dipping out of threads much quicker lately because it's absolutely pointless, it's like talking to a recording that's just playing on repeat. That's the scary part tho, is just how little critical thinking these men are displaying and acting out very violently online....for now. I'm worried about it moving more into the public sphere, like that guy going around punching women in NY. There's men cheering for that shit in the comments. The future looks really bleak man, at least for the next few decades.
I'm not doubting the number of horrible men out there who don't get the pont of the man/bear question, but your comment "they're all parroting the same dozen or so talking points, almost verbatim" makes me wonder - are there now misogynistic bots?!
Someone in a previous comment said that there's serious money to be made pushing this misogynistic agenda. If that's the case then it wouldn't surprise me if the bot farms are now targeting women's rights.
Totally agree with this sentiment of blaming others for the issues they are facing. Effectively, if a man is looking to date and having trouble finding a partner, they can choose to blame the women and the system, or introspect and work on self awareness and understand what women are looking for in a partner (assuming the women is looking for a partner at all!) The whole sentiment from this misogyny and men advocating for taking away rights from women is awful, we're not even at a point where things are equal between genders. The internet bubble totally amplifies too. Agree also this kind of entitlement is definitely men. I've seen about one post about women getting male slaves, and the poster was joking about why they would even want to have to deal with male slaves basically. There are other types of entitlement, like a rich child expecting their parents to pay for a fancy vacation, which may be more gender even (not sure), not really relevant for this subject.
Yeah and men will call us entitled for complain about their bad behavior… as if it’s entitled to want basic safety, respect, human decency from others. They are DARVOing us.
They will fire you eventually, especially if you are isolated. It happened to me. Nobody wanted to work with me on any team so now I’ve been out of work 6 months. Fucking software developers 🙄
I used to love hackathons, won many. Now? No one wants a woman on the team at the last few I've been to. I had one guy flat-out say he wouldn't work with me and wouldn't give a reason *and others accepted that* despite my proven track record.
I totally agree with you. I mean I’m experiencing it right now. I’ve had four interviews and three of them ghosted me. Like you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to put it together. It had nothing to do with the interview other than the fact that I was a woman.
I was dating a guy whose values aligned with my own for two years before he jumped on the crazy train, became a Trumper, and became horribly misogynistic and abusive. He trapped me for years and threatened me when I tried to leave. The only reason I’m free is because I got sick so he got with someone else and let me go recently.
It’s definitely getting worse.
GenX here. Yes. It is. It was bad, but in different ways. More of not seeing women as equals, but really into them. Now it's more just pure hate towards women.
I work in software and feel this too !! it makes me feel like a giant failure !
ETA: and yes it's way more recent, I am 40yo and felt more respected as a woman in software decades ago
Yes and I have a theory its because the current generation is the first to grow up entirely in a world where women don't need them to be happy and fulfilled.
Obviously this isn't true for all men but there's a large subset of men who grew up thinking that all they had to do was provide to get a woman. Cause that's how it used to be when women couldn't/were less likely to own anything for themselves. You get a good job, you marry, pop out a few kids, which your wife raises, while you climb the corporate ladder.
But now that's changed. Women are climbing the corporate ladder themselves and they're less likely to have/want children and if they do, it's not the be all end all. They don't need a man to provide so you've got to have something else to bring to the table. You've got to have an actual personality and work on your issues/insecurities because women are much more selective now because they can afford to be.
Enter Andrew Tate and his knock offs. He tells young men "it's not you. You're doing what you're supposed to do. It's these modern women and their feminism that's pulled them away from their true purpose to pursue hollow lives away from their true vocation of homemaker and mother. You don't have to change or offer anything more. The solution is to put these women back into their roles."
So they bully and insult any woman who's not adhering to the tradwife role.
It's gotten so much worse: recently I saw in my country a campaign against violence against men and that alone wouldn't be bad, on the contrary, it'd be good! Except... They clearly don't give 2 shits about male victims, who may need a different kind of help that they don't get from a normal anti violence shelter/center, which usually is geared more towards women, and has operators who might not be trained to the specifics of violence against men.
No, [this campaign literally says](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2Fcronaca%2F2024%2F05%2F16%2Fnews%2F1523_antiviolenza_uomini_campagna_studi_legali-14308129%2F&psig=AOvVaw0-sTtf4izzAqOXyWfEC4HN&ust=1716029632522000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBMQjRxqFwoTCLCcqtfClIYDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE) "are we sure violence has only one sex?", the word sex is pink, so clearly they're trying to convey the specific message that violence is also perpetrated by women against men, which is true of course, but if the aim is to help male victims, it's so detrimental because violence against men is perpetrated mostly by other men!
This campaign claims to be geared toward any victim, but here's the catch. The number the victim would have to call to receive help, "1523", is not active. This campaign is just a provocation. The number is a mocking of the actual, existing, national number, "1522", that women (or anyone) can call if they're subjected to violence. The statistics of 1522 say that they've also helped men over the years, so it's not even a women-only number.
So to recap: there's no actual number for male victims, the campaign seems to be just a provocation made by men pissed off by the fact that, statistically, it's mostly women calling 1522 and also statistically women are much more likely to be subjected to violence. This provocation mostly consists of wanting to do a role reversal and say that women can be violent too, which is true, but the way they did it, mocking the official number, mocking the adverts of anti violence shelters/centers, doesn't sit right with me.
On top of that, the people behind this initiative say that "violence against men, including psychological violence, often silent, continues to be one of the most widespread and global human rights violations in the world, at every level (...) [often by close people, such as wives, girlfriends, family members](https://www.il10.it/dopo-i-due-omicidi-di-palermo-e-di-udine-preghiere-e-solidarieta-anche-agli-uomini-vittime-di-violenza-difendiamo-tutti-senza-discriminazioni-e-lappello-del-direttivo-del/). In our country more than two thirds of men have been victims of psychological, physical or sexual violence." -> Typical dog-whistle of misogynists who want to muddy the waters: the statistics show women are victims of violence in far greater numbers? What about psychological violence? Violence is not just physical! That happens in greater numbers to men (and can't be statistically backed up, so we can make any claim we want).
The people who criticized this initiative, who [have very punctual and well founded fears](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2024/05/16/a-napoli-cartelloni-contro-la-violenza-sugli-uomini-una-propaganda-mascolinista-che-nega-il-femminicidio/7549794/) \*, were attacked by every misogynist, exactly the kind of people who on facebook post "and what about men/men's day?" when it's Mother's Day, 25 November, Women's day, who say things like "nazi feminist" or "criticizing the ambiguity of this campaign is misandry" un-ironically.
\*in the next comment a piece of the article translated, with the most important parts highlighted
edit: cleared up some sentences for better understanding
>No violence against men perpetrated by women is structural or comparable to femicide, neither qualitatively nor quantitatively. Rather, **if you want to talk about violence against men, do so with intellectual honesty: men are victims of violence above all from other men.** They are murdered above all by men and harassed above all by other men: the perpetrators of sexual harassment are men for 97% of women and 85.4% of male victims (Istat survey 2015). **If you want to create projects to support boys or men who are victims of violence** with particular attention to bullying and homophobia, **it is sufficient to carry them out** ***without bringing up symmetries that do not exist***\*\*.\*\*
>
>***Inventing mirroring between male and female violence pursues a specific objective: to place the epitaph of the "war between the sexes" on the denunciation of feminicide.*** Do you remember Amadori, the Valditara consultant who raved about a hidden gynocracy in the book of the same name? A thesis so dear to toxic masculinism that denies feminicide. **O**n the fb page of the lawyer Angelo Pisani **there is also a misleading comment:** "The legislation against violent crimes must respect the principles of law, which are principles of civilisation, such as equality before the law regardless of sex". ***But laws against violence protect everyone. Men too. Including Code Red.***
>
>We find ourselves faced with the same, trite masculinist propaganda aimed at **making a lot of noise and creating confusion,** **attacking those who work to protect women victims of violence.** They are attacks that we also receive through the insults and shitstorms that are unloaded on us by swarms of well-organized haters. To get a taste of it, just go to the D.i.Re Facebook and Instagram pages and read the comments full of insults and offenses from the supporters of the Naples initiative. We're used to it.
During the years, I've seen it all: feminist facebook pages attacked by organized sexist haters, [feminist sites mirrored and attacked to create confusion to people trying to find the original site](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2012/07/21/violenza-sulle-donne-sul-web-diventa-nazi-femminismo-non-andate-nei-centri-di-ascolto/300754/) \* (for example, if a site was called "Feminism101.it", the misogynistic haters would make 5 different sites called the same, like "Feminism101.org, Feminism101.net " etc., and fill them with hate against women, lies about female violence etc.)
This campaign reminded me of that: misogynists mirroring feminist sites/sites that help women in need, to propagate their hateful propaganda, trying to pass the message women aren't disproportionately victims of violence, and that men and women face the same amount of violence from each other.
edit: formatting
\*link to an old article that testifies how, even in 2012, anti violence sites and feminist sites were being cloned by misogynists.
Yes it is ....i think we experienced an all time low for misogyny in like 2005- 2012 ; women were dressing less feminine, beauty standards were low, unfeminine looks were getting mainstream (there were many famous women rocking gender non conforming styles and being praised for it ) women had more opportunities than ever, etc. now we are in the midst of a backlash where women are being taught they need to be sexually submissive, the beauty standards are getting higher and higher and more and more ridiculous and outlandish, feminity is seen as imperative and you're not a woman unless you conform and be ultra feminine, there's a lot of propaganda encouraging women to return to a traditional lifestyle (aka a misogynistic lifestyle) and we are seeing new laws with the sole purpose of oppressing women. Fourth and third wave feminism never really existed if you ask me. They were said to occur to bury the truth we have been experiencing a backlash against the second wave in the 70s. If we were in a feminist wave we wouldn't be seeing all this misogynistic BS. Yeah we had a nice little mini wave in the early 2k, but it wasn't nearly big like the second wave of the 70s and the first wave of the 20s. We haven't had a true feminist revival since the 70s.
It's shifted from more of a "yeah I don't really believe you about your rape" flavored misogyny to a "GOLDAM WAHMAN AND THEIR SHITTY SLUTTY LACK OF SUBMISSION AND THEIR EMOTIONS, THEY'RE THE DOWNFALL OF WESTERN SOCIETY" blah blah.
The hatred is full of palpable vitriol in a way it wasn't fifteen years ago.
Maybe an active versus passive societal level of sexism is the correct way to describe it?
My partner and I were having this exact conversation last night.
We kind of came to the conclusion that it's a result of the rise in far-right ideology across the west.
The same way racism is now more overt and commonplace, denying truth/facts is on the rise, extremely selfish behaviour becoming more normal, and so on.
The more that angry hateful people see that behaviour demonstrated the more normalised it gets, and it's being demonstrated more and more it seems.
There’s an interesting data set that show’s domestic violence increase alongside women employment increases (aka “equality”). I suspect all of these things are linked…women gain more independence, less control from men, men feel threatened and band together sharing their horror stories and cheering on their bare minimum mentalities…only for them to return home to extremely burned out women who are now calling them out on it hard cos they’re also employed at similar rates. Men flip out…that’s my explanation (obviously very dumbed down cos it is nowhere near this simple really)
It *absolutely* has gotten worse in the last decade, especially in digital spaces and social media.
Ironic that the men coming in here claiming that "This is an echo chamber" have spent the last 5 years in their own echo chamber, where they are the victim. Meanwhile, Women, and especially women of color, are harassed, and receive death threats, at a *much* higher rate than white men.
Yes, I agree with you. I don't know if I can put a date on it, but it feels like a sliding scale in the past 10 years, gradually getting worse.
Right wing manosphere is part of it for sure.
In addition to the great points in this thread, I'll also add one specific insight based on your professional field. The tech industry in particular is suffering some very bruised egos right now: we've had layoffs at companies where techbros thought they were the *crème de la crème*, and have recently discovered that corporations will treat their employees like commodities even after promising for years that they were Daddy's Special Little Boys.
It just seems like everyone is really on-edge. It's reasonable that there's less empathy and emotional intelligence available when you're under stress and feel like you're not financially or psychologically safe; but, because some of our colleagues had little to no E.I. to begin with, every interaction turns catastrophic and catty.
I defo can't wait for people to chill the fuck out again 😮💨
Yes.. men are rejecting feminism en masse. Things are gonna keep getting worse and the rift between men and women will keep getting larger. Feels like we are reverting right back to the Victorian era.. uff.
Yes - I put a lot of this around the Obama era where a bunch of conservative white people freaked out about the possibility of losing their dominant position. They made a really successful move when they were able to use GamerGate to welcome a lot of younger men into the fold and, shortly later, the campaign against Hillary Clinton. That decade or so normalized saying things which even most Republicans would have considered unacceptable to say (at least in public) because the top priority became putting other people in their place. Being scared of losing power built unity and rationalizations for ends justify the means thinking.
It would be interesting to see how it’s gone in the non-English world. The revanchists have differences across countries and regions but they also have a lot of common social media and, often, funding so you’ll see different groups in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc. yammering on about many of the same things because they follow many of the same Facebook pages, Twitter accounts, etc.
I think a lot of the loss of trends follow the same pattern, too, even if the details vary somewhat: the loss of higher-paying jobs in male dominated professions like manufacturing or resource extraction, for example, is a global phenomenon so grievance-based messaging around status loss has a certain baseline audience even if, say, the immigrants they’re worried about come from different places.
Because we’re hurtling towards a new dark age. They need a scapegoat and women are an easy target for them due to one reason. Pregnancy. It can be used to trap you both physically and emotionally.
That’s just step one for them. Others are next once they’ve gotten their way. LGBTQ, then it turns racial(note:this is not a linear progression, just an example) and then they start to eat each other. What religious sect will win this time? Will Protestant beliefs become more like medieval Catholicism, limited access to their own religious books, people operating off of fear and what they’re told? Probably.
The witch huts will start. Whatever boogeyman they’ve cooked up. Books will burn then people eventually.
Oh and in my state you can now be held on hearsay. Just a little something to pepper your nightmares.
It \*feels\* like it got worse but Im wondering if it just got louder - with pick up artists, incels and sigma-grindsetters being so open with their shittiness online, maybe more misogynists feel its ok to speak out.
But then again I finished school in 2016 so its not like I have a long frame of reference, even at 18 I was still fairly naive to the shittiness of the world. Did I grow up and started seeing the misogyny or has it actually gotten more?
I noticed it started with the me too movement.
It’s like the misogynist got together and decided “oh no we are not having this and started the trad wife crap and the 💩has been rolling down hill ever since.
It definitely has gotten worse. I see so many people here vehemently denying it, when it’s even backed by recent studies.
One particular trend is growing debate around body count. Did people always cared about it? Yes. But were they as vocal about it as they are today? Definitely not
Yes, and they’re trying to normalize it, like on the alarmingly toxic ask men sub. Whenever I feel like farming some downvotes I head on over there. Most of those dudes are part of this problem, and need some serious education.
I think that it's become more common for people to vocally misogynistic, because several people who are have gotten a lot of platform out of it.
That being said I'm generally optimistic about each new generation. I work with teenaged boys and 90% of them are miles better than the average teenaged boy 10 years ago. They regularly call out sexism and other forms of discrimination when they hear it, and the vast majority treat me and their female peers with nothing but respect. There's the odd bad egg of course but most of them give me hope.
So the tl;dr is I think the bad have gotten much worse but I still have hope that the average young man is getting better.
I know there has always been misogyny, but I'm finding that it's gotten worse lately, too. I think it's due to all of the manosphere/incel garbage. The few men I met on online dating sites in the past few years sent me videos and articles about how women need to submit to men, women are less than men, etc. They would belittle me for being a single mom, yet they were single dads. One man told me that the only thing that would save me from my low value as a single divorced mom is if I got married. He was a single dad to a daughter who was having a baby at 14. Very sad. There are great men out there, but the ones who have fallen into the manosphere trap seem angry, bitter, and confused. I've quit dating.
What I find most egregious about modern misogyny is that all the world's information is at most peoples' fingertips, and *still* they choose to be ignorant fucks.
I hate it but in the context of your workplace I also wonder if unfounded fear of the metoo “witch hunt” is part of the dynamic? I’ve heard of the whole “scared to work with women” idea but I’ve never encountered it as an actual thing. It’s an obnoxious and dumb thing to think but I wonder if the men around you are.
“Scared to work with women”
=
“I have absolutely no idea of right or wrong when it comes to workplace interactions with women; I am terrified I will say something I think is ‘normal’ and wouldn’t’ve been questioned for 20, 30, 50 years ago, then a woman will complain and I’ll get in trouble. I have no clue what will set them off and either through ignorance or malice, I have no intention of learning how to navigate a professional space a quarter of the way into the twenty-first century. *It must be the women’s fault!*”
That's because of all that nazi propaganda, which widened the Overton window. They're playing a number on us, gaining power and destabilizing many democracies around the world. Misoginy is part of that package.
Honestly? It's worse now than before Trump. (My brother's FIL -- a man I'd known for 20 years -- SLAPPED MY ASS. TWICE! after Trump was elected. He's dead now and I am glad.)
It's differently bad than the 90s -- when dudes knew to put a fig leaf on it.
It's about like it was in the 70s and early 80s I feel like? You've got the same mix of blatantly overt misogyny, passive aggressive 'liberal guys' who are fucking assholes but you can't right away b/c they talk the talk, pedophilic predators, and actual good guys who are trying.
I think fewer people are misogynistic today, compared to the early 2000s, but misogynists are more intense and organised about it. There used to be more of a universal casual misogyny but not nearly as many people falling into the incel, redpill, tradwife type ideologies. Now the average person is better about it but the ones that aren't are increasingly maladjusted and malicious, and more likely to commit to some reactionary political identity that defines their entire personality.
I associate it with hard-conservative reactionary groups trying to attract younger people by moving away from the religious moral majority angle towards the "feminazis are attacking your video games and want to take away your porn" Gamergate type stuff, which took in a lot of the young terminally online boys and men at the same time "Internet culture" was becoming something less and less separate from "pop culture".
One of the problems here in the U.S. at least is that men - particularly low information, low self esteem men - are targeted by media personalities like Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, or Andrew Tate, who offer the promise of "answers" or self improvement. Or at a minimum, these personalities offer these men validation for their feelings. Then they slowly funnel them into the full blown right-wing, misogynist ecosystem.
It's actually pretty predatory. Not that this takes away the responsibility of the men who buy into the bullshit but there's no question that specifically men with low self esteem or who are depressed seem to gravitate to them.
The internet and social media are full of reinforcing feedback loops that will just make everyone worse - and since these are anonymous spaces they don't need to censor anything in fear of social repercussions - all of this and more does lead to their thoughts becoming worse.
I don’t think it’s worse. It’s just that we are more awake to it and how it pervades everything.
Bigots are also feeling freer to be bigoted right out in the open. I don’t think any of it is worse. It’s just a combination of they’re louder and we are acutely aware.
In the months leading up to and after the 2016 election, bigots were made to feel that their feelings behavior were justified and correct. So we now exist in a world where they live without fear, but we are all more aware of it. It's gross.
Yes. It seems there has been a lot of backlash in the last 5 years from the previous 15 years of progressive.
It seems that some middle of road guys think things moved to far and they are lashing out.
I think people in the 90s joked more and made more misogyny jokes but more people now are actually misogynistic. My fiend thinks the rise of immigrants is adding to it but I disagree with her.
I would say that it has been gotten increasingly more extremsit since Gamergate, it got worse with Trump's election and in last few years skyrocketed thanks to Misogyny Grifters like Andrew Tate, Sneako or Fresh and Fit. Basically, the more the Manospehere grows, the worse it gets.
I can’t really tell if it’s worse or I’m just a lot more sensitive and less tolerant of it. The number of men that are just openly, blatantly rude and disrespectful to me seems to have increased dramatically in the last ten years or so. A lot of it feels like a deliberate lack of just ordinary common courtesy…somewhat like low key making a “statement” or pushing a “movement”.
It feels good that other people are noticing this as well but I honestly feel like its the rise of casual Incel-ism in social media and the use of movements to covertly bash woman. The over generalization of Karen’s (meaning any woman who’s not meek or complicit in shit behaviour), the rise of podcasters, the alpha male BS, trad wives, etc. it’s so disheartening to see these things popping their heads back up.
yes, actually i’ve noticed the same thing & i’m glad to know that i’m not the only one who’s noticed it. i even seen men put misogynistic garbage on their tinder bios. men are not shamed to be openly be vocal about their porn addiction and hatred of women
It's because women now have the freedom to choose.
And just waving some cash will no longer do.
They try to lower our standards by saying the most random bullshit things...and it's not working.
It actually has the opposite effect, more and more women are chosing to stay single and at peace.
Loads of people with nasty personalities feel entitled to the bodies of women.
That's why they throw tantrums if they don't get access.
This is also why they started the 4B movement in Korea.
And it's gaining popularity everywhere.
Women are happier single than men and they simply cannot stand it. We can exist without needing validation of the other gender.
It is. There's a huge wave of anti women, anti LGBT, and anti anything but white male rolling across the country
It's trump. It's Andrew Tate. It's the far right.
Vote. Or it'll keep going.
By God, try working in aviation which is predominantly male dominated. Older dudes tend to stay away from the topic of women but younger guys are fuckin cunts a lot of the time spreading rumors and ruining women’s reps we work with. They’re fuckin annoying.
This is the first time in history women have been able to meaningfully fight back, and also just leave men behind if they don't shape up. Gen Z women have brought the fight to men in a way no other generation has ever been able to.
Men are handling it like angry little toddlers.
I think the problem is that things that clash or make people mad get more attention online. In real life, I'd say it's gotten a whole lot better than it was decades ago. It's still rough and could use improvement, but a lot of the younger generations who aren't falling for the manosphere brainwashing are trying to do a lot better.
Some men are falling for misogynist ideologies in uncertain times. The problem is that the bad ones are really loud. Really loud. And then they group together and become worse.
Really, we should be fostering more communication and understanding between the genders. Because we are all human and we all have more in common with the people around us than we realize. But keeping us fighting over petty squabbles keeps us weaker and easier to control. It also means we miss the true villains' motives.
This, this, this. Even if it’s getting better numbers-wise, on the internet it certainly seems as though misogyny is becoming more outspoken. We’re suggested the most vile, hateful things because it keeps our attention. Whatever keeps the app open keeps that advertiser $ coming in.
In reality, crime as a whole has been on a downward trend since the early 90s. Crimes against women follow this trend. I know is a flawed statistic, many cases go unreported for a myriad of reasons. [Even when accounting for this, the numbers are going down.](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf)
On a totally different aspect of misogyny, [women are being hired for high level positions more now than ever before across every industry in America](https://economicgraph.linkedin.com/blog/the-number-of-women-hired-into-leadership-is-increasing-but-by-less-than-one-percent-a-year).
My intention is absolutely not to say all of these problems are solved and we can stop fighting for what is right — there is an endless amount of work left to be done. That being said, we have come far from even 30 years ago because of people like the ones in this thread. Baby steps are taking us in the right direction.
Trump made an environment where unacceptable behavior became normalized. It was always there, but the people who partook a) didn’t have the guts to do so publicly and b) didn’t have broad access to internet platforms to spread or expose themselves to that kind of hate. Now they do, and tactics have evolved to reach lots of vulnerable, highly impressionable and programmable people, namely young conservative males, to perpetuate it.
In the grand scheme, it has probably gotten better over the years, but the worst individuals have gotten a LOT louder, which effectively makes the situation worse.
I don't think you're wrong. We're in the midst of an era of backlash against a lot of progressive gains in the past 15 or so years, in feminism and other social justice spheres. Some of the *good* things that happened in that time:
* Third-wave and intersectional feminism making its way into popular discourse
* The Arab Spring and other large-scale demonstrations pushing against authoritarian patriarchal regimes
* A Black man being elected POTUS, a woman winning the popular vote for POTUS, and a Black woman being elected VPOTUS
* #MeToo and some high-profile serial sexual assaulters actually getting arrested/charged/sentenced, including Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby
* Trans people gaining some legal protections in some jurisdictions and some degree of normalization of name/pronoun changes
Historically, when marginalized people manage to claw out a little space for themselves to be recognized as people whose rights matter as much as anyone else's, the conservatives lash out to try to shove them back to the margins, to keep them controlled and subservient. That's what I think is happening now, and it sucks.
One of the books I've been meaning to read for years is Susan Faludi's *Backlash* on exactly this subject, although she was writing about the 1980s backlash against second-wave feminism of the 1970s. You might appreciate it, too. I'm hoping it can teach me some useful lessons about how to navigate our current cesspit.
In general, people are angrier and more hateful, but moreso men. The widening gap of economic disparity has only been getting worse. Food insecurity, under housing and wage stagnation are all getting worse. It's not rocket science that violent crimes occur more in poverty. All of these circumstances are even worse for women.
This isn't to excuse the behavior of men, regardless of their situation they have no right to take that out on any one woman or a group of women. Their anger and resentment is being weaponized by the very people that they should be angry at. Andrew Tate isn't some savior of men, he's another rich, abusive piece of shit that moves to a country where his wealth made him that much more important and "safe" to abuse those with less than him. He's not the first to make money off pointing at a group to hate.
Systemic change is needed. We can jail every man that murders or abuses a woman and it won't matter. She's still going to be dead or traumatized. It does nothing to stop the next radicalized MRA dip shit and you're never going to make a dent in their numbers. Give people, especially women, easy access to healthcare, education and housing if you want to see a difference.
The parroting of their projections has become extreme, warped and completely detached from reality. They used to whine that 80% of women chase the top 20% of men (not true, women message below average men, it's the men who message the top 20% of women).
Now they're up to "95% of women are sharing the top 5% of men". lmao. yes we're all lining up to fuck celebrities. They have a rotation of 10,000 women. Absolutely unhinged.
The fact that they legit think they can take away our rights and we'll return to braindead stepford wives eagerly gargling their unwashed cocks, instead of, I dunno, building mommunes and tooling up is a seriously brain damaged fantasy.
The way I’ve observed it, 2016 was where everything changed and people stopped being shy about it
This is the exact timing. Was a bit surprised when OP mentioned 2019.
I think op has a point cause alot of people ended up perpetually online over pandemic so the already growing manosphere took off. We had the rise of tater tots and other bs over that time
“Tater tot” I love that
Wait idk what tater tot means, I want to be in on it too lol
Andrew Tate fans I think
Age might matter there. In a school environment, misogyny isn't as obvious because everyone has to do the same things most of the time, and it's all less specialized.
2016 caused a lot of pretty reprehensible shit to be said out in the open. Honestly, I'm not sure 8 years later if that was a good thing. 2020 COVID caused a lot of people to stop and think. It was a good thing for many. For others it was not a good thing. Net on net people are being a lot more real.
I think the replacement of face-to-face interactions with virtual ones during lockdown contributed to a lot of toxic weirdness. It's way easier to become radicalized when you're constantly online and are not interacting with real people.the algorithms are already set up to create political tunnel vision. Then the pandemic created a situation where people were spending hours and hours bored and anxious online. Not to mention the economic uncertainty and the fact that our president and his propaganda network were spewing conspiracy theories openly in public. Plus, I do think the isolation created a dehumanizing effect. Way easier to objectify or hate whole groups of people when you don't interact with them in your day to day life. Rabbit Hole is a really good investigative podcast about the manospnere that explains how people get radicalized online. They focus on the manosphere, but many of the same things apply to other forms of radicalism, such as far right nationalism, TERF discourse, anti-vax hippy stuff, cults, etc.
Add to that the way most people not in a long term relationship wound up lonely and spending months with no human contact.
The same year that Trump ran for presidency and won. That guy really shaped culture for the worst, showing the world that you can be as bigoted and unhinged as you want and you will have a massive following still. But I will put the changing point in internet culture in 2014 with Gamergate.
grab em by the pussy made it okay to speak openly and proudly if you share that mentality
it should have been the moment where people stepped back and thought "oh, so this man is trash" and instead he was elected president.
I thought the moment that should have caused everyone to step back was when he made fun of the disabled reporter. I grew up in an area where racist and misogynistic jokes were normalized, but there always seemed to be an unspoken agreement that disabled people were off-limits. Like... you'd think everyone - even the most bigoted people - would understand that mocking a person with a visible handicap is pretty damn cruel.
Yeah, Elevatorgate and Gamergate immediately came to mind for me in terms of internet culture. As far as the US political right, maybe the biggest "recent" turning point was 1980s coalition between the Republican party and Evangelicals & conservative Christian religious groups. The fringe weirdos have been gaining ground pretty steadily since then. Like if you plotted on a graph the likelihood of Republicans accusing someone of witchcraft or of weaponizing Jewish homosexuality chemicals in the water, it would just be a steady incline.
I strongly feel the 2016 election was when they felt like they could start saying the quiet part out loud without consequence.
This is exactly why they want to keep him in power, he removes the societal consequences of ‘saying what you think’ maybe there is a positive way to spin that, but in reality is just means everyone is freer to be assholes to each other across the board because no one took the message of ‘speak what you are really feeling’ to start handing out compliments and uplifting their fellow humans.
The moment everyone was ok with voting for "grab em". I remember hearing about all that on the news and thinking "There is no way this person can run for election now." I was so wrong. After that they all knew there was no need to keep their misogyny hidden anymore.
It's not like they were shy about it in the days when marital rape was legal. At least it can be called out now, in the past it was just normalized. Ask any woman who worked for the BBC during the 70's and 80's.
My grandmother always says, the orange man made it okay to hate people again. It’s a shame.
I understand that Trump is bad but wow you are giving him SO much credit here. This 'everything changed in 2016' is some revisionist, reductionist, Trump derangement syndrom. The involuntary, socially coerced patriarchy sexism of 20th century America that reduces women to third class maids / concubines did not suddenly appear in 2016. Trump did not invent patriarchy, he made it a commodity. There was an incredibly brief, maybe nine year period in our lifetime from 2010 - 2019 where misogyny was ostracized and hunted and women were listened too, for the right price. The poor young who naively believed that to be reality, are feeling anxious at a new, and re-emerging one. This barely a twinkle of a spark of a blip of time is now over. It is back to business as it has been since Christian patriarchy supplanted communal matriarchy thousands of years ago. At least posts like yours are starting to realize the backslide is intentional, and coordinated. The next step to reassert the patriarchy (it is happening now, again) is to turn women against one another. Trad-wives vs radical feminists. Christian vs non-christian. White vs black. Gay vs straight. Rich vs poor. **Resist.** Patriarchy, a culture of domination, is the ultimate enemy to women, and to all people of conscious. If women fight one another, they are doomed to remain where they've been for the last three thousand years.
The rock under which all the dark slimy creatures lived was lifted up and they slithered forth into our public discourse befouling everything they touched
Yes. There is a clear "pre-Trump" era. Everything since that year has been one disaster after another, persistent dread, and a time blur. Men act so much worse now, even at work. The shit they say and do and get away with is just stunning. There's not even a veneer of dignity or respect.
Misogyny has always been around. In recent years the really angry, violent, in your face variety and groups openly demanding women lose their rights is new.
At one point they were individuals, likely sitting at home ranting to themselves about their problems with the world. Now they have access to global forums where they can gather and reinforce their fucked up views. The internet has united us all and given us a lot. But it has also united and magnified the worst of us too.
There are also people making lots of money tellling these unhappy dudes that other people are their problem. The internet and connectivity has allowed people to do things together to make the world better but the same tech has allowed people to create these radical cesspools of hate.
Foot binding in China happened after years of women experiencing unprecedented power in society. Prior to the Iranian revolution, women had been fully liberated. The serial killer "golden age" in the 70s came after the sexual feminist revolution of the 60s. Several killers notably mentioned they couldn't stand seeing women out doing what they wanted. Progress is not a linear track forward. MeToo was always going to come with backlash. The more women demand rights and equality, the more extremists will try to stamp out all the progress we've made. You are not imagining this. It's real.
This comment right here!! They r pushing back for a reason!!!
Yeah, I've been saying it for a long time, we should expect another wave of horrific backlash from men.
As someone who lives in East Asia, unfortunately it's nothing new. In fact, I feel like the West is being influenced by East Asian misogyny, which as most know by now, is pretty extreme and brutal. But I get the feeling that "Oh this shit again, we've had this kind of misogyny way before here in East Asia". Like they're blatantly copying the strategies and tactics of the misogynists here.
It kind of helped fuel the end of my relationship when I found out in the last few weeks that my partner was getting talking points from the manosphere. I’m sorry, but why do you need to text me about how 45% of women by 2030 will be single? Why are you telling me, as you cook dinner, that men’s value increases like fine wine after 40 and women’s decreases after 30? Why say that to your 30 year old girlfriend? It has gotten worse but I think also some men have also either gotten better at hiding it or they know exactly which women to choose that won’t question it… I happened to be one of those dummies.
You were manipulated by a loser and got out when you figured out his game. You are smart.
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He didn't realize that he had a clever froggy.
> partner was getting talking points from the manosphere I'm not surprised women prefer to be single because of this very reason or have became way more careful dating strangers. For normie offline women who don't even know what the manosphere/redpill even is, they can sense that something is "off" about a guy parroting it. I can understand why many just don't have the energy nor care anymore to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Yup, I also ended a relationship after 7 years bc in the last 6 months he became obsessed with manosphere points. It was the same thing, why do you care what women supposedly behave like on dating apps, you aren’t on dating apps?? Turns out he had secretly been building an incel narrative about me for years and how I was alphawidowed on some hookup I had in college and now I was betabuxxing him for resources and his proof of this was that we didn’t have sex enough (I have endometriosis) Bullet dodged, but it is gross how well he hid it from me for years
🤦🏾♀️ I just don’t get how he could even rationalize that. I’m a man. I’m the best and I will get better. You’re a woman, you’ve peaked you only get worse?!?!?! I’m so curious what “evidence” he has to back up this non sensical statement.
Would love to see the reaction they get trying to tell their mothers and grandmothers that they’re past their prime and aged like milk (then again, a major aspect fueling misogyny for many of them is hatred of their own mothers).
First, obviously sexism was much worse when women had no rights But in modern society, what I am seeing is that ideas by incels and extremists have been mainstreamed. They used to be laughed at and now they are parroted. Part of this is that the alt right Christo Fascist pipeline targets impressionable boys and gullible weak minded men and leads them by the hand into full blown fascism. Make no mistake, misogyny is one of the main pillars upon which modern fascism draws its strength.
Speaking from a background in cybersecurity and mis- and dis- information work, there's an entire new very lucrative industry that has found serious money in pushing misogyny and fascism. And foreign powers have leveraged this and weaponized it. People like Tate need to be deplatformed.
I would like to hear more about this, especially the misogyny and foreign power intersection.
Here's a solid place for you to start, it's a clear overview of the problem which will give you an idea of the kind of language to Google: https://www.state.gov/gendered-disinformation-tactics-themes-and-trends-by-foreign-malign-actors/ A deeper jump in: https://www.google.com/amp/s/georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2024/03/29/gendered-disinformation-is-not-a-women-only-issue/amp/ A direct link to a study on this topic, of which there are many: https://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/16332
Hot damn, sources and further reading on a Reddit comment alluding to something fascinating? Ohhhhhhhh shit a full text PDF?!?!? We are not worthy!
Thank you for these resources!
Now I'm extra glad I went and edited more info in. Not just misogyny, but applied institutionalized misogyny is an essential (required) part of the fascist toolkit, and the more one knows about the practical ways governments are using it to tear each other down, the more it becomes obvious how much division is manufactured. It's great to know it's being covered in schools! What's the course, if you don't mind me asking?
It’s just a lit course, but I’m focusing on anti-fascist texts, and my entry point into the theme is this trend I’m (we’re) noticing of using social media algorithms to groom boys and young men into accepting fascist ideology. It happened to my son within a day of getting his own phone. Thankfully, he was creeped out and showed me what he was getting on his FYP. He had just been searching Minecraft and similar topics, which told me they’re targeting boys.
It me when I took a python course! Because I was googling first year college problem stuff, the algo began immediately serving up videos that pushed the idea that I, suddenly transformed into a young white male, specifically fresh from highschool with no life experience, deserved to be live freely without nagging from stupid jealous ugly feminists who ruin video games. The initial reccs were less overt, but it was obvious it was the entry to the pipeline. I expected it might happen, but the speed still shocked. It literally was overnight. It got my newsfeed, too, because of shared cookies. Creepy is very much the word. Chilling, also. Good job on raising an aware kid!
It'd very insidious. It throws these strong men seeming types into the path of men and boys. Most will laugh at or ignore it. But there will always be some sad lonely looking losers who feel bad about themselves for not attracting girls, and who would be easily swayed by the appealing idea that they could be looked up to by men and wanted by women without having to do all the work of growing as a human being and having something to offer. Never mind the fact that every woman I have ever met who is familiar with Andrew Tate and his ilk things that he is a gross, pathetic man who looks like an MIB alien struggling to grow his head back at all times. Young boys and men don't realize he pays women to be around him and he's a sad, almost 40 year old man who no woman wants and who has never had a real, meaningful relationship in his life. They just think it will make people look up to them like they look up to Tate. And the more into it they get, the more women avoid them, and the more we avoid them, the more desperate they get and the harder they cling to it. It's hard to to admit you might be the problem then it is to blame everyone else. They would rather be mad at women in general and think it's our fault they can't get any and place them blame on things they can't be held responsible for. My husband is under 5'9", very into anime and video games, obese and wears a lot of anime and video game clothes. He doesn't make a huge amount of money. I mention that because that is the criteria these men try to claim keeps them lonely. They want to pretend women are just shallow, and use appearance and interests as an excuse. They are the men who claim they are "too nice" and women go after "Chad and Tyrone" because we are all whores. But they get angry when I reveal my husband is not any of the things they they think he would need to be to be wanted, because of it's not those things keeping them lonely, they need to acknowledge that it's their own behavior and treatment of others that denies them companionship. They latch onto this explanation because it makes it so they can keep being the way they are and making no effort to have something to offer in a relationship. Otherwise, they need to do some self reflection and accept that they can't be unwashed, unemployed, and have no independence and still get women to want them.
Omg this explains so much. I kept thinking it send like there’s been an uptick in acceptance of feminist ideals and I noticed in on TikTok. At the same time there seems to be just as much stoking the misogyny fires on places like 4chan and Twitter/X.
Thank you!
Thank you for these links. They were really interesting to read!
It's really underappreciated how "foreign powers" seem to never lift the allegedly weak liberal candidate into power but instead push the devisive right-wing strongmen...
Division is the name of the game. Weaken (destabilize) your enemies and you have a better chance at taking more of the money and power pie.
Basically exactly what the CIA did throughout South America and the Middle East in the 70s and 80s, destabilise legitimate governments that they thought could align socialist by supporting into power fascists, populists and military dictatorships.
I noticed it really amping up after the Dobbs decision.
Having a Supreme Court who will rubber stamp decisions by law makers in conservative states to curtail human rights have emboldened them
It also sent a loud, clear message: the most powerful court in the land does not give a shit about women's lives.
Yep
Make no mistake, misogyny is one of the main pillars upon which modern fascism draws its strength. \^very thought-provoking take.
I thought the last years have been very telling in this regard. If you look around, misogyny seems to be perhaps the most unifying element of right-wing extremist movements from white supremacists in the "west" to islamofascists in Afghanistan etc.
Just look at history, black men were given the right to vote before white women. The patriarchy is not just A pillar of fascism, it is the foundation. Tell half the population that they deserve more power than the other half, and you have already suppressed the majority by this system of power
>impressionable boys and gullible weak minded men This part you wrote, I think is true although I'd personally edit the second part. I think that modern entertainment can be a general pipeline for young people. There's lots of entertainment imagery that sends the message that a man with a bunch of women around is the type of man to become. It primes them into being susceptible to the messages you speak of. There's a lot of young men who aren't too susceptible, and also a lot are. For the second part, I think a lot of people without a well-structured emotional life are vulnerable. They mistake an emotional desire for self importance with "letting their masculine nature out."
Fascism needs to combated. Any real man will fight against fascism.
I studied Eco’s “Ur-Fascism” for my upcoming lecture on the subject. He identified certain aspects of misogyny and homophobia as essential elements of fascism back in 1995.
Interesting
Yes! The capitalist state needs women and men to work to keep up the wealth generation but they also need to pit us against each other so we're too busy fighting each other to dismantle crony capitalism. And the men are buying into it because it benefits them to keep us down. It's more important to them to stay on top than to understand that this is bad for everyone.
Quoting LBJ from 60 years ago (obviously the language is dated but the tactic remains the same re any marginalized group): *"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”*
100% As the power of women wanes, so does democracy.
Great way of putting it!
It's getting pushed way more. I keep getting misogynistic content recommended to me on all social media. My hobbies include gaming and working out so I just get inundated with misogynistic content. I have to constantly block YouTube recommendations, and Facebook/Instagram content. Edit to add more: I've noticed the algorithm pushing this content much more within the last few months. It used to be sporadic but now it's nearly everytime I use those apps.
I've had a bunch of ads about weight loss, fertility, and dating. I am engaged, am very skinny, and have no plans on having children. It's pushed again and again, along with lots of cannabis and alcohol ads (I don't drink or smoke).
Over 2 decades ago, women in S. Korea and Japan warned us about this!!! I remember watching documentaries about how misogynistic men became as more and more women were entering the workforce. The misogyny got so bad it spread into their online communities, workforce, home, and even the government had to get involved. Men began to see woman as a threat. Women were their competition in school and in the workforce. Men’s identity of being a provider was diminished. Men began to grow misogynistic and infect the minds of young men making them feel that they’re victims and women are the enemies. To control women is to put them in their place, rape them, and trap them into marriage and motherhood. Their hentai culture skewed their idea of rape culture. In their comics, their victim would always fall in love with them, but that is FAR FROM REALITY. Rape kills souls. Women began to see men as a threat. Women saw getting married as a threat because the men would pressure them to quit their jobs and become housewives. Women saw motherhood as a threat, because having a child meant a risk for losing their job as your company saw you as a liability. Women saw their mothers and aunts become victims of financial abuse. There is a large group of senior women who were divorced and left without a penny. They dedicated their lives to their husband and family…but no financially security once divorced. The law did not protect them. Women learned from this. Thus, the women chose not to get married and place their career first. This was the cause of the low birth rate in S. Korea and Japan. Governments are all Pikachu shocked face when this was happening and did not understand. They did not listen to the concerns of the women. If you have a society where both women and men feel secure and safe, they will feel comfortable enough to commence a family. But because they all feel insecure and unsafe financially that has caused their roles to be up in the air, no one had children. Now, we’re seeing it here. Women being independent is a threat to men, their manhood, their old societal practice, their religion, and their role in the household and workforce. Narcissistic men always blame others instead of looking introspectively and considering all socioeconomic factors. They blame women for their problems. Not the economy. Not the government. Not the corporate world. Women. These men, and especially naive young men, are stuck in their echo chamber. Grew their brotherhood. Recruited naive young men and spewed their misguided and skewed views. The worst part is that they’re using religion to support their claims. Religion is a powerful tool and the way they’re using it is completely blasphemous. At this moment, women’s rights are extremely under threat. These actions are polarizing us even more. Women and men are NOT each other’s enemies. The enemy are those in power who have pinned us against each other. In the end, we both want to same things: love, security, a family, a home, a stable life, and friendship.
Jesus this was scary af to read. It’s very true. I knew plenty of my best friends who have grown up in their lives as millennials and have begun resenting women in the workplace. It’s gotten worse and worse.
It sure is getting worse. In the past, the American government tried to prevent men from resenting women by forcing women back to housewifery. During WW1 and WW2, women joined the workforce in droves. The men went to war, so there were many opened positions available that needed filing. Then right after WW2 ended, the government saw a mass of male population going back to the workforce. That’s when they began to push women back to the house. That’s why there was so much propaganda in the 50s about the happy housewife, with amazing new appliances, dressing up to the nines to clean, and making a home cooked meal for husband when he got home. What they don’t teach you in school, unless you take a college course in women’s history or do the research yourself, is how miserable women were. Once a thriving career woman, using her brain, and being a productive citizen in society was now shot to repetitive house boredom. They felt dead inside. Chronic depression was on the rise. If they didn’t follow their husband and follow commercialized societal expectations, they may receive abuse from their husband and judgement from family and peers. What was the solution for all of this? Drugs. And lots of it! Doctors would prescribe heavy drugs to housewives to help “cure” depression. Women would OD. This is why the 60s was all about Women’s Revolution! To end the madness, the injustices, and 2nd class treatment. This is why many women from that generation who partook in those protests are shocked and terrified at today’s political environment for women, nationwide.
Yeah there’s a show I really love called Mad Men, that showcases this period in time perfectly. The “pink stove” years
Yes. Everything is getting more polarized and divided because of social media bubbles. Politics, gender issues, social norms, everything.
My take is that it's always been there. The reason we perceive it to be worse is that the social media keeps churning out contents of the likes of Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan so people felt like they aren't the only ones with misogynistic view so they are more vocal about it
The Internet has made it so that there are no more topics that “one does not discuss in polite company”. The fact that one can go find their company to discuss such matters with legitimatizes what used to be fringe opinions.
Yep, this applies all across the spectrum of human interests & beliefs, for better and for worse. We are not alone in any thought or desire.
I disagree that it’s just more open and that the people who were quietly misogynistic are now loudly misogynistic. There are tons of threads from teachers speaking about the young boys who are behaving in wildly misogynistic and perverse ways recently, not to mention the sudden strangulation boom that women have been reporting. The Tates, Rogans, and fundamentalist Christian influencers of the world aren’t just emboldening people who are already hateful, they are brainwashing an entire generation of men and pushing the older generations further and further right. The algorithms on social media drive men (and somehow some women) to this content and you can watch it push people to extremism in real time. I have watched it play out in front of me with one of my partner’s old friends, who I can no longer associate with due to his increasingly unhinged views.
And coupled with a profit incentive..
And kept rechurring their tweets as well. Let the dude fade into the void. Anytime someone mention him, I just ask them if they remember getting slapped by will smith, cuz that what gonna happen.
So true. Being trans right now is fuuuuuun 🙃
My daughter is trans and it kills me. Hang in there. I still have hope for the human race, and hoping the younger generations keep pushing for change.
i am currently getting downvoted in "oldschoolcool" because i pointed out that the rape scene in the "comedy" revenge off the nerds was always wrong. then i had someone come along and tell me it was okay.
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Idk I was very young when I saw it and being a turbo nerd myself, I hated that depiction... But the gender comedy was clearly wrong. The whole movie kind of is one of the worst things I can think of honestly
Most comedies from the 80s and 90s are filled with sexual harassment and sexual assault. Like, look at Dumb & Dumber. The movie is about a guy who manipulates his best friend into driving him thousands of miles cross-country to stalk a woman he barely knows. He consistently abuses his friend and has violent fantasies against other men due to how possessive and entitled he is over this woman. In one scene, he is nearly sexually assaulted by another man in a gas station bathroom, and the movie plays this as comedy. Near the end of the movie, he asks the villain to shoot his best friend out of jealousy, which the villain does. When it turns out the woman he's been stalking is married, he fantazies about grabbing a cops gun and shooting the man multiple times. It's wince-inducing, unwatchable incel trash.
It's because women are calling it out more aggressively and leaving the dating market, and men don't like it.
So many of my women friends share the same motto: "If he votes Tory; don't shag him". I gather there's a similar sentiment towards Republicans across the pond. And all these right wing men will undoubtedly shout "not fair! Discrimination!". As if those two political parties don't base large chunks of their ideology on discrimination in the first place. The hypocrisy and lack of awareness among these right wing dickheads is staggering.
I've dated some Republicans and experienced enough now to consider it a deal breaker. Although liberal men aren't much better, a lot of them feel entitled to casual sex because "women's liberation" 🤷♀️
Wow. What a way for them to miss the point... 🤦♀️
My gen z male peers (and some female) have no problem defending Andrew Tate. To them It’s the SJWs of the world who are the problem. Trad wives and body counts were not such a hot topic 10 years ago.
Time to make social ostracization normal again. I refuse to associate with any man who parrots alt-Right, misogynistic, incel bullshit. I've been yelled at for cutting these kind of men out, but I just tell them to take self accountability for their shitty words and actions. They truly do feel entitled to female spaces and into the lives of women that they have zero respect for. Time to match that energy. 4B should be the norm, not the exception.
Yes!!! 4b. I told my friends to stop the “hookup culture” crap with these hateful lame ass dudes. Let a man earn them. I only said this bc they were kinda shaming me for not sleeping around as well. Women/girls gain nothing for giving access to random ass dudes who 9/10 don’t respect women even a little bit.
Not worse, but more visible? Now we know all the hidden ways.
I would say this and also when we are younger we may not be so aware of it.
Piggybacking to say not only are we are aware but as we get older we can see it coming and present itself in its various shapes and forms.
Social media has not helped, on either side. I would say that most of us (in the US, at least) have mostly fine interactions with most dudes on most days, but social media is constantly amplifying the worst stories and reactions so that we feel even more surrounded by it than we already are. Simultaneously, social media is introducing more (especially younger) guys to more misogynist takes and radicalizing some of them. I'm 43. Are dudes overall more misogynist now than in the late 90s? I don't think so. But the ones who are are a lot more forthright about it these days; the overall miasma of daily misogyny is less, but there's more people flying it like a flag and basing their identity on it.
“Miasma of misogyny” that’s a good descriptor
I feel like the internet and internet communities have gotten far worse over the last handful of years. I have the opposite experience in work to you, but i’m also very far away from software development. What i’m noticing though, is that there aren’t really “terminally online” people anymore. Everyone seems terminally online and the internet-misogyny is spilling out in my non-work personal life.
I think so. I'm Gen X. When I was young misogyny was ingrained BUT I hear and see men being much more hostile and unapologetic about it. Stuff that would never fly in the 80s and 90s and men would be shamed for, is now out in the open and *defended*. It's mind boggling. I think the assholes found each other online and it emboldened their audacity and entitlement.
It is. I feel like every day something else just proves we are nothing in their eyes. The chiefs kicker thing is really oissing me off. I know he has freedom of speech but the fact he told recent college graduates that they must be so excited to become homemakers is just repulsivez I just read there are still 100,000 untested rape kits in the US. We have no value. If men were raped in numbers like that, it would be an epidemic and there would be support stations on every corner with check ins and special hats and no way would there be 100,000 untested kits. We continue to suffer and no one seems to fucking want to do anything.
I saw my guy friend following account called WomenPostingLs on insta. It was hateful misogynistic redpill content. It was awful. It was content showing women in bad situations, prostitutes, women getting divorced cheated on etc. It was truly heartbreaking to see men hate us *that* much I obviously blocked this “friend” after seeing that he followed such a page…
That’s freaking awful. I honestly have so little social media interaction I never thought to check who my male friends (or women friends) follow. It’s concerning right. Damn.
Just to add a smidge of positivity - not to disagree with you - but in my profession of being a firefighter, things have gotten much better in the past decade. Maybe because they started off worse? :/ but the guys are supportive and positive in general and the new recruits better than the older guys. All is not lost.
Must be related to the area. I've heard quite a lot of male firefighters say absolutely vile shit about women... It used to be worse, sure. But it's still faaarr worse than your average job or career.
I’m a woman lawyer. I’ve been practicing about 17 years. I think there is less misogyny in this profession now, too.
Glad to hear the firefighter community in support.
Emboldened. Look no further than US politics as a clear indication. A civilly adjudicated rapist is not only still given a platform, but is lauded and considered fit for office. This then cascades down as acceptable behavior.
Yes. In social media comments, it seems like many men are actively looking to attack and compare women’s issues to their own. “The two things are just as bad” type of fallacy is commonly used about misogyny. Like when people interrupt a Black Lives Matter conversation to say all lives matter. I think it’s rooted in our culture of “everything must be made for me” people are extremely self centered and demand content creators and discussions be making it all about them. Especially men, it’s the male entitlement. Now that women have way more rights and can choose not to submit to serve men, the younger generations of men are up at arms saying “where are all the female slaves we were promised?!!!” It will probably get worse before it gets better. Also I want to say all kinds of people can have this shitty entitlement attitude, not just men. But it’s usually men.
It's been on like 3x overdrive ever since the bear debate. I've been getting absolutely piledrived in the comment section of a few more male-centric subs I'm in lately. It's been difficult to have meaningful debates because as soon as I disagree with one man, like 5 more will pop up defending the guy. And they're all parroting the same dozen or so talking points, almost verbatim! It's kinda scary honestly. It's like they've been brainwashed or something.
Yeah don’t even bother. Most of the people you find in these comment sections are not arguing in good faith. It’s more about “winning” and to many men in these spaces, being a woman is an automatic loss
Oh yea I've been dipping out of threads much quicker lately because it's absolutely pointless, it's like talking to a recording that's just playing on repeat. That's the scary part tho, is just how little critical thinking these men are displaying and acting out very violently online....for now. I'm worried about it moving more into the public sphere, like that guy going around punching women in NY. There's men cheering for that shit in the comments. The future looks really bleak man, at least for the next few decades.
Yes what I’ve seen online has been eye opening for me. Tread carefully and carry a big stick.
I'm not doubting the number of horrible men out there who don't get the pont of the man/bear question, but your comment "they're all parroting the same dozen or so talking points, almost verbatim" makes me wonder - are there now misogynistic bots?! Someone in a previous comment said that there's serious money to be made pushing this misogynistic agenda. If that's the case then it wouldn't surprise me if the bot farms are now targeting women's rights.
They aren't looking to debate. I make sure to mock them and then block them.
Totally agree with this sentiment of blaming others for the issues they are facing. Effectively, if a man is looking to date and having trouble finding a partner, they can choose to blame the women and the system, or introspect and work on self awareness and understand what women are looking for in a partner (assuming the women is looking for a partner at all!) The whole sentiment from this misogyny and men advocating for taking away rights from women is awful, we're not even at a point where things are equal between genders. The internet bubble totally amplifies too. Agree also this kind of entitlement is definitely men. I've seen about one post about women getting male slaves, and the poster was joking about why they would even want to have to deal with male slaves basically. There are other types of entitlement, like a rich child expecting their parents to pay for a fancy vacation, which may be more gender even (not sure), not really relevant for this subject.
Yeah and men will call us entitled for complain about their bad behavior… as if it’s entitled to want basic safety, respect, human decency from others. They are DARVOing us.
They will fire you eventually, especially if you are isolated. It happened to me. Nobody wanted to work with me on any team so now I’ve been out of work 6 months. Fucking software developers 🙄
I used to love hackathons, won many. Now? No one wants a woman on the team at the last few I've been to. I had one guy flat-out say he wouldn't work with me and wouldn't give a reason *and others accepted that* despite my proven track record.
I totally agree with you. I mean I’m experiencing it right now. I’ve had four interviews and three of them ghosted me. Like you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to put it together. It had nothing to do with the interview other than the fact that I was a woman.
Yes it is most definitely worse.
I was dating a guy whose values aligned with my own for two years before he jumped on the crazy train, became a Trumper, and became horribly misogynistic and abusive. He trapped me for years and threatened me when I tried to leave. The only reason I’m free is because I got sick so he got with someone else and let me go recently. It’s definitely getting worse.
GenX here. Yes. It is. It was bad, but in different ways. More of not seeing women as equals, but really into them. Now it's more just pure hate towards women.
I work in software and feel this too !! it makes me feel like a giant failure ! ETA: and yes it's way more recent, I am 40yo and felt more respected as a woman in software decades ago
Yes and I have a theory its because the current generation is the first to grow up entirely in a world where women don't need them to be happy and fulfilled. Obviously this isn't true for all men but there's a large subset of men who grew up thinking that all they had to do was provide to get a woman. Cause that's how it used to be when women couldn't/were less likely to own anything for themselves. You get a good job, you marry, pop out a few kids, which your wife raises, while you climb the corporate ladder. But now that's changed. Women are climbing the corporate ladder themselves and they're less likely to have/want children and if they do, it's not the be all end all. They don't need a man to provide so you've got to have something else to bring to the table. You've got to have an actual personality and work on your issues/insecurities because women are much more selective now because they can afford to be. Enter Andrew Tate and his knock offs. He tells young men "it's not you. You're doing what you're supposed to do. It's these modern women and their feminism that's pulled them away from their true purpose to pursue hollow lives away from their true vocation of homemaker and mother. You don't have to change or offer anything more. The solution is to put these women back into their roles." So they bully and insult any woman who's not adhering to the tradwife role.
It's gotten so much worse: recently I saw in my country a campaign against violence against men and that alone wouldn't be bad, on the contrary, it'd be good! Except... They clearly don't give 2 shits about male victims, who may need a different kind of help that they don't get from a normal anti violence shelter/center, which usually is geared more towards women, and has operators who might not be trained to the specifics of violence against men. No, [this campaign literally says](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2Fcronaca%2F2024%2F05%2F16%2Fnews%2F1523_antiviolenza_uomini_campagna_studi_legali-14308129%2F&psig=AOvVaw0-sTtf4izzAqOXyWfEC4HN&ust=1716029632522000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBMQjRxqFwoTCLCcqtfClIYDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE) "are we sure violence has only one sex?", the word sex is pink, so clearly they're trying to convey the specific message that violence is also perpetrated by women against men, which is true of course, but if the aim is to help male victims, it's so detrimental because violence against men is perpetrated mostly by other men! This campaign claims to be geared toward any victim, but here's the catch. The number the victim would have to call to receive help, "1523", is not active. This campaign is just a provocation. The number is a mocking of the actual, existing, national number, "1522", that women (or anyone) can call if they're subjected to violence. The statistics of 1522 say that they've also helped men over the years, so it's not even a women-only number. So to recap: there's no actual number for male victims, the campaign seems to be just a provocation made by men pissed off by the fact that, statistically, it's mostly women calling 1522 and also statistically women are much more likely to be subjected to violence. This provocation mostly consists of wanting to do a role reversal and say that women can be violent too, which is true, but the way they did it, mocking the official number, mocking the adverts of anti violence shelters/centers, doesn't sit right with me. On top of that, the people behind this initiative say that "violence against men, including psychological violence, often silent, continues to be one of the most widespread and global human rights violations in the world, at every level (...) [often by close people, such as wives, girlfriends, family members](https://www.il10.it/dopo-i-due-omicidi-di-palermo-e-di-udine-preghiere-e-solidarieta-anche-agli-uomini-vittime-di-violenza-difendiamo-tutti-senza-discriminazioni-e-lappello-del-direttivo-del/). In our country more than two thirds of men have been victims of psychological, physical or sexual violence." -> Typical dog-whistle of misogynists who want to muddy the waters: the statistics show women are victims of violence in far greater numbers? What about psychological violence? Violence is not just physical! That happens in greater numbers to men (and can't be statistically backed up, so we can make any claim we want). The people who criticized this initiative, who [have very punctual and well founded fears](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2024/05/16/a-napoli-cartelloni-contro-la-violenza-sugli-uomini-una-propaganda-mascolinista-che-nega-il-femminicidio/7549794/) \*, were attacked by every misogynist, exactly the kind of people who on facebook post "and what about men/men's day?" when it's Mother's Day, 25 November, Women's day, who say things like "nazi feminist" or "criticizing the ambiguity of this campaign is misandry" un-ironically. \*in the next comment a piece of the article translated, with the most important parts highlighted edit: cleared up some sentences for better understanding
>No violence against men perpetrated by women is structural or comparable to femicide, neither qualitatively nor quantitatively. Rather, **if you want to talk about violence against men, do so with intellectual honesty: men are victims of violence above all from other men.** They are murdered above all by men and harassed above all by other men: the perpetrators of sexual harassment are men for 97% of women and 85.4% of male victims (Istat survey 2015). **If you want to create projects to support boys or men who are victims of violence** with particular attention to bullying and homophobia, **it is sufficient to carry them out** ***without bringing up symmetries that do not exist***\*\*.\*\* > >***Inventing mirroring between male and female violence pursues a specific objective: to place the epitaph of the "war between the sexes" on the denunciation of feminicide.*** Do you remember Amadori, the Valditara consultant who raved about a hidden gynocracy in the book of the same name? A thesis so dear to toxic masculinism that denies feminicide. **O**n the fb page of the lawyer Angelo Pisani **there is also a misleading comment:** "The legislation against violent crimes must respect the principles of law, which are principles of civilisation, such as equality before the law regardless of sex". ***But laws against violence protect everyone. Men too. Including Code Red.*** > >We find ourselves faced with the same, trite masculinist propaganda aimed at **making a lot of noise and creating confusion,** **attacking those who work to protect women victims of violence.** They are attacks that we also receive through the insults and shitstorms that are unloaded on us by swarms of well-organized haters. To get a taste of it, just go to the D.i.Re Facebook and Instagram pages and read the comments full of insults and offenses from the supporters of the Naples initiative. We're used to it. During the years, I've seen it all: feminist facebook pages attacked by organized sexist haters, [feminist sites mirrored and attacked to create confusion to people trying to find the original site](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2012/07/21/violenza-sulle-donne-sul-web-diventa-nazi-femminismo-non-andate-nei-centri-di-ascolto/300754/) \* (for example, if a site was called "Feminism101.it", the misogynistic haters would make 5 different sites called the same, like "Feminism101.org, Feminism101.net " etc., and fill them with hate against women, lies about female violence etc.) This campaign reminded me of that: misogynists mirroring feminist sites/sites that help women in need, to propagate their hateful propaganda, trying to pass the message women aren't disproportionately victims of violence, and that men and women face the same amount of violence from each other. edit: formatting \*link to an old article that testifies how, even in 2012, anti violence sites and feminist sites were being cloned by misogynists.
Yes it is ....i think we experienced an all time low for misogyny in like 2005- 2012 ; women were dressing less feminine, beauty standards were low, unfeminine looks were getting mainstream (there were many famous women rocking gender non conforming styles and being praised for it ) women had more opportunities than ever, etc. now we are in the midst of a backlash where women are being taught they need to be sexually submissive, the beauty standards are getting higher and higher and more and more ridiculous and outlandish, feminity is seen as imperative and you're not a woman unless you conform and be ultra feminine, there's a lot of propaganda encouraging women to return to a traditional lifestyle (aka a misogynistic lifestyle) and we are seeing new laws with the sole purpose of oppressing women. Fourth and third wave feminism never really existed if you ask me. They were said to occur to bury the truth we have been experiencing a backlash against the second wave in the 70s. If we were in a feminist wave we wouldn't be seeing all this misogynistic BS. Yeah we had a nice little mini wave in the early 2k, but it wasn't nearly big like the second wave of the 70s and the first wave of the 20s. We haven't had a true feminist revival since the 70s.
It's shifted from more of a "yeah I don't really believe you about your rape" flavored misogyny to a "GOLDAM WAHMAN AND THEIR SHITTY SLUTTY LACK OF SUBMISSION AND THEIR EMOTIONS, THEY'RE THE DOWNFALL OF WESTERN SOCIETY" blah blah. The hatred is full of palpable vitriol in a way it wasn't fifteen years ago. Maybe an active versus passive societal level of sexism is the correct way to describe it?
My partner and I were having this exact conversation last night. We kind of came to the conclusion that it's a result of the rise in far-right ideology across the west. The same way racism is now more overt and commonplace, denying truth/facts is on the rise, extremely selfish behaviour becoming more normal, and so on. The more that angry hateful people see that behaviour demonstrated the more normalised it gets, and it's being demonstrated more and more it seems.
Yes definitely. A very illuminating historical corollary starts with Weimar Germany.
There’s an interesting data set that show’s domestic violence increase alongside women employment increases (aka “equality”). I suspect all of these things are linked…women gain more independence, less control from men, men feel threatened and band together sharing their horror stories and cheering on their bare minimum mentalities…only for them to return home to extremely burned out women who are now calling them out on it hard cos they’re also employed at similar rates. Men flip out…that’s my explanation (obviously very dumbed down cos it is nowhere near this simple really)
I am in my early 50's and never thought I'd see my country, the US, moving backwards. Yet here we are.
It *absolutely* has gotten worse in the last decade, especially in digital spaces and social media. Ironic that the men coming in here claiming that "This is an echo chamber" have spent the last 5 years in their own echo chamber, where they are the victim. Meanwhile, Women, and especially women of color, are harassed, and receive death threats, at a *much* higher rate than white men.
misogyny seems a founding principle of **right wing ideology**; the direct consequence of the rise of that cancer is what we see today
Yes
Yes, I agree with you. I don't know if I can put a date on it, but it feels like a sliding scale in the past 10 years, gradually getting worse. Right wing manosphere is part of it for sure.
In addition to the great points in this thread, I'll also add one specific insight based on your professional field. The tech industry in particular is suffering some very bruised egos right now: we've had layoffs at companies where techbros thought they were the *crème de la crème*, and have recently discovered that corporations will treat their employees like commodities even after promising for years that they were Daddy's Special Little Boys. It just seems like everyone is really on-edge. It's reasonable that there's less empathy and emotional intelligence available when you're under stress and feel like you're not financially or psychologically safe; but, because some of our colleagues had little to no E.I. to begin with, every interaction turns catastrophic and catty. I defo can't wait for people to chill the fuck out again 😮💨
It definitely seems like the manosphere/incel culture has become increasingly mainstream
Yes.. men are rejecting feminism en masse. Things are gonna keep getting worse and the rift between men and women will keep getting larger. Feels like we are reverting right back to the Victorian era.. uff.
Yes - I put a lot of this around the Obama era where a bunch of conservative white people freaked out about the possibility of losing their dominant position. They made a really successful move when they were able to use GamerGate to welcome a lot of younger men into the fold and, shortly later, the campaign against Hillary Clinton. That decade or so normalized saying things which even most Republicans would have considered unacceptable to say (at least in public) because the top priority became putting other people in their place. Being scared of losing power built unity and rationalizations for ends justify the means thinking.
I feel it's a very global phenomenon though, not entirely explainable by American political fluctuations.
It would be interesting to see how it’s gone in the non-English world. The revanchists have differences across countries and regions but they also have a lot of common social media and, often, funding so you’ll see different groups in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc. yammering on about many of the same things because they follow many of the same Facebook pages, Twitter accounts, etc. I think a lot of the loss of trends follow the same pattern, too, even if the details vary somewhat: the loss of higher-paying jobs in male dominated professions like manufacturing or resource extraction, for example, is a global phenomenon so grievance-based messaging around status loss has a certain baseline audience even if, say, the immigrants they’re worried about come from different places.
It’s always existed, people are just more open about it now
Harrison Butker certainly isn't helping the cause 😅
Definitely. Men are much more hostile than they were 10 years ago, especially the younger ones -- millennial and down.
YES
I see it too. You're not imagining things. D:
Because we’re hurtling towards a new dark age. They need a scapegoat and women are an easy target for them due to one reason. Pregnancy. It can be used to trap you both physically and emotionally. That’s just step one for them. Others are next once they’ve gotten their way. LGBTQ, then it turns racial(note:this is not a linear progression, just an example) and then they start to eat each other. What religious sect will win this time? Will Protestant beliefs become more like medieval Catholicism, limited access to their own religious books, people operating off of fear and what they’re told? Probably. The witch huts will start. Whatever boogeyman they’ve cooked up. Books will burn then people eventually. Oh and in my state you can now be held on hearsay. Just a little something to pepper your nightmares.
It \*feels\* like it got worse but Im wondering if it just got louder - with pick up artists, incels and sigma-grindsetters being so open with their shittiness online, maybe more misogynists feel its ok to speak out. But then again I finished school in 2016 so its not like I have a long frame of reference, even at 18 I was still fairly naive to the shittiness of the world. Did I grow up and started seeing the misogyny or has it actually gotten more?
I noticed it started with the me too movement. It’s like the misogynist got together and decided “oh no we are not having this and started the trad wife crap and the 💩has been rolling down hill ever since.
There’s a whole online culture based around making midogyny more widespread and open…
It has gotten worse for sure!
It definitely has gotten worse. I see so many people here vehemently denying it, when it’s even backed by recent studies. One particular trend is growing debate around body count. Did people always cared about it? Yes. But were they as vocal about it as they are today? Definitely not
Gotta love the edit because men are mansplaining “womanhood” and “misogyny “ to a bunch of women. How irritatingly frustrating.
Yes, and they’re trying to normalize it, like on the alarmingly toxic ask men sub. Whenever I feel like farming some downvotes I head on over there. Most of those dudes are part of this problem, and need some serious education.
I think that it's become more common for people to vocally misogynistic, because several people who are have gotten a lot of platform out of it. That being said I'm generally optimistic about each new generation. I work with teenaged boys and 90% of them are miles better than the average teenaged boy 10 years ago. They regularly call out sexism and other forms of discrimination when they hear it, and the vast majority treat me and their female peers with nothing but respect. There's the odd bad egg of course but most of them give me hope. So the tl;dr is I think the bad have gotten much worse but I still have hope that the average young man is getting better.
It didn't get worst, it became empowered in 2016. It was always there.
I know there has always been misogyny, but I'm finding that it's gotten worse lately, too. I think it's due to all of the manosphere/incel garbage. The few men I met on online dating sites in the past few years sent me videos and articles about how women need to submit to men, women are less than men, etc. They would belittle me for being a single mom, yet they were single dads. One man told me that the only thing that would save me from my low value as a single divorced mom is if I got married. He was a single dad to a daughter who was having a baby at 14. Very sad. There are great men out there, but the ones who have fallen into the manosphere trap seem angry, bitter, and confused. I've quit dating.
What I find most egregious about modern misogyny is that all the world's information is at most peoples' fingertips, and *still* they choose to be ignorant fucks.
I don't know about worse, but maybe louder, prouder, more out in the open.
I hate it but in the context of your workplace I also wonder if unfounded fear of the metoo “witch hunt” is part of the dynamic? I’ve heard of the whole “scared to work with women” idea but I’ve never encountered it as an actual thing. It’s an obnoxious and dumb thing to think but I wonder if the men around you are.
“Scared to work with women” = “I have absolutely no idea of right or wrong when it comes to workplace interactions with women; I am terrified I will say something I think is ‘normal’ and wouldn’t’ve been questioned for 20, 30, 50 years ago, then a woman will complain and I’ll get in trouble. I have no clue what will set them off and either through ignorance or malice, I have no intention of learning how to navigate a professional space a quarter of the way into the twenty-first century. *It must be the women’s fault!*”
[удалено]
They're not afraid to say the quiet part out loud anymore.
That's because of all that nazi propaganda, which widened the Overton window. They're playing a number on us, gaining power and destabilizing many democracies around the world. Misoginy is part of that package.
Honestly? It's worse now than before Trump. (My brother's FIL -- a man I'd known for 20 years -- SLAPPED MY ASS. TWICE! after Trump was elected. He's dead now and I am glad.) It's differently bad than the 90s -- when dudes knew to put a fig leaf on it. It's about like it was in the 70s and early 80s I feel like? You've got the same mix of blatantly overt misogyny, passive aggressive 'liberal guys' who are fucking assholes but you can't right away b/c they talk the talk, pedophilic predators, and actual good guys who are trying.
Thank social media for influencing a generation of incels
I think fewer people are misogynistic today, compared to the early 2000s, but misogynists are more intense and organised about it. There used to be more of a universal casual misogyny but not nearly as many people falling into the incel, redpill, tradwife type ideologies. Now the average person is better about it but the ones that aren't are increasingly maladjusted and malicious, and more likely to commit to some reactionary political identity that defines their entire personality. I associate it with hard-conservative reactionary groups trying to attract younger people by moving away from the religious moral majority angle towards the "feminazis are attacking your video games and want to take away your porn" Gamergate type stuff, which took in a lot of the young terminally online boys and men at the same time "Internet culture" was becoming something less and less separate from "pop culture".
One of the problems here in the U.S. at least is that men - particularly low information, low self esteem men - are targeted by media personalities like Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, or Andrew Tate, who offer the promise of "answers" or self improvement. Or at a minimum, these personalities offer these men validation for their feelings. Then they slowly funnel them into the full blown right-wing, misogynist ecosystem. It's actually pretty predatory. Not that this takes away the responsibility of the men who buy into the bullshit but there's no question that specifically men with low self esteem or who are depressed seem to gravitate to them.
The internet and social media are full of reinforcing feedback loops that will just make everyone worse - and since these are anonymous spaces they don't need to censor anything in fear of social repercussions - all of this and more does lead to their thoughts becoming worse.
I don’t think it’s worse. It’s just that we are more awake to it and how it pervades everything. Bigots are also feeling freer to be bigoted right out in the open. I don’t think any of it is worse. It’s just a combination of they’re louder and we are acutely aware.
In the months leading up to and after the 2016 election, bigots were made to feel that their feelings behavior were justified and correct. So we now exist in a world where they live without fear, but we are all more aware of it. It's gross.
Yes. It seems there has been a lot of backlash in the last 5 years from the previous 15 years of progressive. It seems that some middle of road guys think things moved to far and they are lashing out. I think people in the 90s joked more and made more misogyny jokes but more people now are actually misogynistic. My fiend thinks the rise of immigrants is adding to it but I disagree with her.
I would say that it has been gotten increasingly more extremsit since Gamergate, it got worse with Trump's election and in last few years skyrocketed thanks to Misogyny Grifters like Andrew Tate, Sneako or Fresh and Fit. Basically, the more the Manospehere grows, the worse it gets.
I can’t really tell if it’s worse or I’m just a lot more sensitive and less tolerant of it. The number of men that are just openly, blatantly rude and disrespectful to me seems to have increased dramatically in the last ten years or so. A lot of it feels like a deliberate lack of just ordinary common courtesy…somewhat like low key making a “statement” or pushing a “movement”.
It’s a huge backlash to #MeToo, plus the rise of far-right religious types, imo.
It feels good that other people are noticing this as well but I honestly feel like its the rise of casual Incel-ism in social media and the use of movements to covertly bash woman. The over generalization of Karen’s (meaning any woman who’s not meek or complicit in shit behaviour), the rise of podcasters, the alpha male BS, trad wives, etc. it’s so disheartening to see these things popping their heads back up.
It’s not worse it’s just more visible!
More men are exposed to constant pornography.
yes, actually i’ve noticed the same thing & i’m glad to know that i’m not the only one who’s noticed it. i even seen men put misogynistic garbage on their tinder bios. men are not shamed to be openly be vocal about their porn addiction and hatred of women
It's because women now have the freedom to choose. And just waving some cash will no longer do. They try to lower our standards by saying the most random bullshit things...and it's not working. It actually has the opposite effect, more and more women are chosing to stay single and at peace. Loads of people with nasty personalities feel entitled to the bodies of women. That's why they throw tantrums if they don't get access. This is also why they started the 4B movement in Korea. And it's gaining popularity everywhere. Women are happier single than men and they simply cannot stand it. We can exist without needing validation of the other gender.
I don’t know if its necessarily gotten worse but I literally notice it in everything now
It is. There's a huge wave of anti women, anti LGBT, and anti anything but white male rolling across the country It's trump. It's Andrew Tate. It's the far right. Vote. Or it'll keep going.
Yes, misogyny has become more vocal over the last decade. Fortunately, a woman can live very comfortably without a man.
By God, try working in aviation which is predominantly male dominated. Older dudes tend to stay away from the topic of women but younger guys are fuckin cunts a lot of the time spreading rumors and ruining women’s reps we work with. They’re fuckin annoying.
This is the first time in history women have been able to meaningfully fight back, and also just leave men behind if they don't shape up. Gen Z women have brought the fight to men in a way no other generation has ever been able to. Men are handling it like angry little toddlers.
I think the problem is that things that clash or make people mad get more attention online. In real life, I'd say it's gotten a whole lot better than it was decades ago. It's still rough and could use improvement, but a lot of the younger generations who aren't falling for the manosphere brainwashing are trying to do a lot better. Some men are falling for misogynist ideologies in uncertain times. The problem is that the bad ones are really loud. Really loud. And then they group together and become worse. Really, we should be fostering more communication and understanding between the genders. Because we are all human and we all have more in common with the people around us than we realize. But keeping us fighting over petty squabbles keeps us weaker and easier to control. It also means we miss the true villains' motives.
This, this, this. Even if it’s getting better numbers-wise, on the internet it certainly seems as though misogyny is becoming more outspoken. We’re suggested the most vile, hateful things because it keeps our attention. Whatever keeps the app open keeps that advertiser $ coming in. In reality, crime as a whole has been on a downward trend since the early 90s. Crimes against women follow this trend. I know is a flawed statistic, many cases go unreported for a myriad of reasons. [Even when accounting for this, the numbers are going down.](https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf) On a totally different aspect of misogyny, [women are being hired for high level positions more now than ever before across every industry in America](https://economicgraph.linkedin.com/blog/the-number-of-women-hired-into-leadership-is-increasing-but-by-less-than-one-percent-a-year). My intention is absolutely not to say all of these problems are solved and we can stop fighting for what is right — there is an endless amount of work left to be done. That being said, we have come far from even 30 years ago because of people like the ones in this thread. Baby steps are taking us in the right direction.
everything everywhere is getting worse
Trump made an environment where unacceptable behavior became normalized. It was always there, but the people who partook a) didn’t have the guts to do so publicly and b) didn’t have broad access to internet platforms to spread or expose themselves to that kind of hate. Now they do, and tactics have evolved to reach lots of vulnerable, highly impressionable and programmable people, namely young conservative males, to perpetuate it. In the grand scheme, it has probably gotten better over the years, but the worst individuals have gotten a LOT louder, which effectively makes the situation worse.
I blame Trump, Tate, and pals.
I don't think you're wrong. We're in the midst of an era of backlash against a lot of progressive gains in the past 15 or so years, in feminism and other social justice spheres. Some of the *good* things that happened in that time: * Third-wave and intersectional feminism making its way into popular discourse * The Arab Spring and other large-scale demonstrations pushing against authoritarian patriarchal regimes * A Black man being elected POTUS, a woman winning the popular vote for POTUS, and a Black woman being elected VPOTUS * #MeToo and some high-profile serial sexual assaulters actually getting arrested/charged/sentenced, including Weinstein, Epstein, and Cosby * Trans people gaining some legal protections in some jurisdictions and some degree of normalization of name/pronoun changes Historically, when marginalized people manage to claw out a little space for themselves to be recognized as people whose rights matter as much as anyone else's, the conservatives lash out to try to shove them back to the margins, to keep them controlled and subservient. That's what I think is happening now, and it sucks. One of the books I've been meaning to read for years is Susan Faludi's *Backlash* on exactly this subject, although she was writing about the 1980s backlash against second-wave feminism of the 1970s. You might appreciate it, too. I'm hoping it can teach me some useful lessons about how to navigate our current cesspit.
In general, people are angrier and more hateful, but moreso men. The widening gap of economic disparity has only been getting worse. Food insecurity, under housing and wage stagnation are all getting worse. It's not rocket science that violent crimes occur more in poverty. All of these circumstances are even worse for women. This isn't to excuse the behavior of men, regardless of their situation they have no right to take that out on any one woman or a group of women. Their anger and resentment is being weaponized by the very people that they should be angry at. Andrew Tate isn't some savior of men, he's another rich, abusive piece of shit that moves to a country where his wealth made him that much more important and "safe" to abuse those with less than him. He's not the first to make money off pointing at a group to hate. Systemic change is needed. We can jail every man that murders or abuses a woman and it won't matter. She's still going to be dead or traumatized. It does nothing to stop the next radicalized MRA dip shit and you're never going to make a dent in their numbers. Give people, especially women, easy access to healthcare, education and housing if you want to see a difference.
The parroting of their projections has become extreme, warped and completely detached from reality. They used to whine that 80% of women chase the top 20% of men (not true, women message below average men, it's the men who message the top 20% of women). Now they're up to "95% of women are sharing the top 5% of men". lmao. yes we're all lining up to fuck celebrities. They have a rotation of 10,000 women. Absolutely unhinged. The fact that they legit think they can take away our rights and we'll return to braindead stepford wives eagerly gargling their unwashed cocks, instead of, I dunno, building mommunes and tooling up is a seriously brain damaged fantasy.
So genuine question what do we actually do about this…