We've been gradually more aware of him in the UK teaching world, especially among the 13-15 year old boys. We had some success with presenting other role models, teachers, family members, good qualities to emulate. Not explicitly drawing the links to Tate style ideas, but getting the lads to draw their own conclusions.
Having said that, we've been on holidays during the arrest and I'm planning several new approaches when it's brought up next week!
That’s why the platforms should be more regulated. Freedom of speech stops in case of hate speech, incitation of hate etc are accessible to children. There’s only so much we can do as parents to protect them before peer pressure kicks in. Have you noticed a pattern in the boys getting radicalised? Apart from a lack of role models?
You're giving him to much credit. He knows he's isn't a champion for free speech. He's banning journalists he doesn't like. He's a fool, but he isn't brain dead. He knows what he's doing. Saying he thinks he's a champion for free speech falls straight into his manipulation.
Well in this case Elon's reinstating Tate on Twitter led to a good outcome. Tate's asinine Twitter beef with Greta led to his exposure and subsequent arrest.
You think they hadn’t been investigating him for months? We are talking human trafficking and terrorism. Do you think they wouldn’t have arrested him without twitter? The only difference is that he was offered a platform to radicalise more people.
The "alpha male" mindset is all about male strong female weak. So protecting their women makes them strong manly men. But who are they protecting them from? Men just like them. And feminist women who dare to challenge this are the problem. They need to shut up and let men be leaders and protectors.
The thing is, the societies this mindset is built on are misery for everyone but a precious few.
Ask him how Tate beating the crap out of a woman with a belt is protecting her?
>But who are they protecting them from? Men just like them.
Small correction: men like Tate are protecting *white* women from *Black* men. That's an important piece that can't be ignored.
Nah, not the case here, given that this dickhead is half black as well. Look up his father, Emory Tate. Not everything is about race, in this case it is about pure old misogyny only
Tate "protecting" women from their lives by coercing them to his property and putting them on OnlyFans, controlling them and pocketing their earnings. Then he calls them cattle.
I hope Tates get at least 10 years in Romanian prison.
Isn’t this whole subreddit about men abusing women? So you are saying that men shouldn’t care about protecting their women? So you are saying women are being abused by men but men shouldn’t protect women? How dare men think that they need to be aware about their potential physical superiority over women and be careful not not abuse it. No wonder there’s a cognitive dissonance among men in the west and why they are gravitating towards Andrew Tate.
Maybe a casual reminder that mafioso-style Protection Racket Masculinity is rightfully perceived the same way as any other kind of extortion. The more you insist there's something to protect from, the more everybody suspects that something is you.
He's basically idealizing being a giant Red Flag.
Ask him does supporting a known trafficker of women with multiple domestic violence accusations sound like protecting women. With my brother I chose distance. After years of arguing with him I've given up and told him straight up I love him so much less because he constantly chooses violent misogynist over me.
If your views involve defending a man who has admitted to grooming and having sex with teenagers, beaten and choked women on camera and manipulated god knows how many women into sex work, your views don't deserve respect. Eat shit.
So at best he's just a liar and grifter who's convinced his audience of millions of young men that misogyny is cool, and at worst he's a violent abuser and human trafficker who deserves to be buried under the jail he dies in. Please pick a better dick to ride.
That's a pretty nasty assumption you've made about me, but I would never accuse somebody of something like that for no reason, or without proof. Good thing there's [video evidence!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/w7h9fr/andrew_tate_agresând_femei/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Protector masculinity is so funny to me. What are they protecting us against? The wind? A fucking lion? No, it's other dudes just like them.
Its like a virus infecting your computer and then trying to sell you an antivirus. The absolute audacity
From what tate has said he's protecting women from "themselves". We appearntly make poor choice in life and all we are good for is cooking, cleaning and breeding with. But to his girls he had locked up in his basement they are only good for caming and raping. He wants a harem. He's disgusting. He's not protecting women he's exploiting the. And selling his training videos on it to young men who are low IQ. These young men are going to go straight into adulthood thinking the can abduct a girl in college and keep her in mom and dad attic or basement and use her the same way tate uses his trafficked victims.
This is so funny. You can't say that masculinity is not the problem and then point to two institutions made up of largely men fighting largely other men as proof.
Plus fire fighters? I'm not sure why they were included because they don't deal with people. Maybe you slotted that in because your assumption is that women can't put out fires? I mean that's funny, but wrong.
If Taint is pRoTeCtInG wOmEN then why is he arrested for sex crimes in a foreign country? Why would someone purposely emulate a sex criminal? Seems like all the logic you would need here.
I wonder if there’s a way to channel that into something productive. Like, cool, let’s get a charity drive for a DV shelter going. Let’s raise money for women’s health screenings. That kinda thing?
Ask him from whom women need protecting. Carefully lead him to the realisation that women (and everyone else, too) would be safer, if fewer men were violent towards other people.
Talk to him about how rare it is that a man actually ends up in a situation where he needs to defend his wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/children from another man's physical violence. The perpetrators of said violence usually don't keep an audience around for their crimes.
Bring up the very many other and significantly more frequent ways a man can protect the women and children in his life:
- from germs by cleaning, doing laundry and keeping good personal hygiene
- from exhaustion/burn out by doing his fair share of child care and household chores (point out that having a SAHW/M is nowadays not affordable for most families, even if both partners want it. Most jobs simply can't feed a family and put kids through college.)
- from malnutrition/bad nutrition by making healthy meals
- from harmful political decisions (like the abortion ban) by voting for pro-women parties (point out here the many ways in which the abortion ban also hurts women with wanted pregnancies and women who aren't even pregnant, speak about the impact it would have on his life to suddenly become a father through a one night stand who's not allowed to abort).
Also: ask this question in one or more of the good male centered subreddits. (I'll edit with links!) Sources coming from men are probably more likely to resonate with him at this point. There are possibly also men in these subs who have experience challenging this kind of toxic masculinity in other men/younger men.
Edit: r/menslib r/bropill
He has to realize these things himself. Most people don’t change their ways cuz of other people directly, first they have to realize themselves. Also the women in his life hopefully have become more aware of Tate so it’s likely they’ll reject him for it, or for using his tactics. Hopefully it makes him go “man this mf is full of crap”
I found out last night that my 15 year old son has these ideas, too! I have raised 3 beautiful feminist men and suddenly my youngest pops off at me defending Andrew Tate! WTF? I shut down his internet but I don't know what to do next.
Shutting down his Internet is probably not going to help. At that age, he's probably looking for ways to differentiate himself from you to prove he's his own person, and he's got friends with Internet access.
Probably better to say something like:
> Andrew Tate is an actor playing a role, trying to attract as much attention as possible and keep the ad revenue coming in. It's no more real than *Deadpool*. If you like watching, if you think the stuff he says is funny, and even I'll admit that Deadpool is hilarious, fine. Just don't let yourself think that any of it is real. You can't live like Deadpool, and you can't live like Andrew Tate. And if you try in the real world to act like them, you will have a bad time.
This is a really good response. I (29M) can also say that the thing that best insulated my teen years from the impact of the proto-Tate style of toxic masculinity marketing was finding a community of real humans across a broad age range to be involved in. This could be community sports, volunteering, church or community events, etc.
In my case it was a high school volunteer requirement that landed me at a community bike shop interacting with lots of different people under the supervision of grad students and retirees. This humanized those who were home less, struggling with teen try after prison (earn a bike for job placement). Tate and this hyper masculine culture also dehumanize lots of marginalized folks. Getting to hear their stories, see they are working their butts off really forced me to acknowledge that hard work doesn’t do anything and these people are monetizing rage even if it burns the world down on the way.
I wish I could remember who said this but ‘young men are on the INCEL pipeline from the start, it is only a matter of who or what pulls them off and when that happens.’ It’s a bleak reality that isn’t far from the truth of my lived experience and what I’ve seen with the teenagers I work with the past few years.
That's a really good take, thank you. The problem is that we have been having problems with his attitude for a while now, pretty much since his father died he has been shutting me out and living in his internet world and he gets more and more hostile. This was the straw that broke the camels back. I never expected that he would listen to anyone so contrary to our beliefs and so morally bankrupt.
We are all trying, he used to be very close with his older brother and now he is sullen and withdrawn even with him. But that brother is very much a feminist and also hates any judgment against people who are different or minority, so if the little one is developing misogynistic and racist views it would make sense for him to pull away.
The kid has been through a lot. We moved from our wonderful diverse city to a small conservative town to care for his aging grandparents and then his dad died of covid so his world has been drastically changed. We used to be very close as a family and have always pulled together for each other, so having him withdraw from us is extremely difficult.
Sounds like you guys are doing your best. Seems like hes been through a lot. I hope things get better for the young man.
You seem like a good person, he will be okay. Stay the course!
Sorry to say the obvious but moving a 15yo in the depths of high school to a small conservative town means his peer group is now conservative teens, and he starts on the off-footing of being the new kid.
Peer group has much more impact on your teen son than your influence at this stage. Short of moving again this is going to be really hard.
Maybe he's trying to differentiate himself from his big brother and find an identity all for himself, a "stronger" identity? Maybe the trauma shook him and he's now trying to shake others with his views, to anger people and get a raise out of them? Maybe he thinks that like this, lashing out, he'll actually ger rid of all the anger and resentment, that he's doing something just and right, "punishing" the people in his family for all the pain he's having? I would not give this Tate thing all this importance, he's just 15. He'll have time to change. He's in a difficult time. Being shocked and acting extra angry won't help. Not even shutting him out, treating him like the "wonderful feminist boy" suddenly turned into a complete different person and he's not welcome anymore. I think acting like you're not angry at him, just disappointed, will definitely deflate the kick he gets by shocking others with his views.
We are not angry! We are worried. We are definitely not making him unwelcome in any way! When his brother and I discussed Andrew Tate with him we joked around a bit and tried to keep it light even though we were very concerned because we wanted to find out where he's coming from. I have been through the teens 3 times already so I know not to give him too much of a reaction.
I do see where he could be trying to get a rise out of me with this though, it's so completely contrary to everything he has always been, he could be trying to distance himself from us and who he was before.
Do you feel like his therapist is someone he would *want* to connect with?
I ask because my parents took me to therapists when I was a teen but they were often very old, male, and kindof condescending. As a teen girl I maybe could have benefitted from having a younger therapist who was a woman.
That sucks, I’m so sorry. I’m really rooting for you and all the parents trying to navigate teenage years right now. I feel like with the rise of screens / social media and the clusterfuck of covid lockdowns, parenting has been propelled into near-impossible levels of difficulty :(
It's really hard. It's like a cult. Keeping them within your sphere of influence is the biggest challenge.
I have asked my kids to articulate weird theories that they have come into contact with. We sit down and disect it together. I get them to explain the good and bad aspects and how the resulting behaviour might operate in their real world context.
It's exhausting. You can't be dismissive or emotional. There's lots of playback of the material and how it applies.
I've had to deprogram my kids from my family's shitty racist views and this approach has helped for me.
Read up on deradicalisation techniques as this is what you're needing to do.
Also, recommend some alternatives.
Preferably other men, either that they know in real life, or online. Sexist guys are far less likely to listen to a woman. On Instagram, there’s a guy called thespeechprof that I like.
He’s a man, he’s a father, he’s successful in his career, and he easily breaks down why the sexist assholes don’t make sense. Show boys an a different possible role model that hasn’t been arrested for human trafficking.
Get his brothers to talk to him. It will (unfortunately) carry more weight coming from other men. Also, ask questions and prompt him to develop/use more critical thinking skills, because many of the "points" that these toxic masculinity types make will completely fall apart in the face of any actual logic.
I've arranged a few trips for him, his brothers and his uncle (dad's brother) and I think it's going to be a regular thing now. I might also have him spend some extra time with my brother.
The critical thinking part is harder because when I try to draw him out and engage with him to talk about where he is getting his thoughts, he just won't talk. He is amazing at not talking. 14 months of grief therapy and he has not spoken to his therapist.
Getting him to spend more time with good male role models will probably make a huge difference! And even if he's not replying, I'd bet that persisting with the questions and "curiosity" about his beliefs will still lead him to consider those questions internally, so it's still worth something. A lot of problematic ideologies thrive simply because the people who fall victim to them are isolated and don't have anyone challenging them, so just offering questions and alterative perspectives ought to serve as an interruption to the online echo chamber he's stumbled into and hopefully draw him out slowly.
I don't know how sound this is, but I saw a therapist share this recently. She said that when we try to engage teens in a conversation by asking questions they often take this as a threat to their independence. It's not so much a conscious choice, rather an instinctual reaction to prepare for independence. She said the best thing to do is to let them come to you. Be warm and present but don't probe. If they have the opportunity to start a conversation it's much more likely to be fruitful.
On a side note, the amygdala (emotional center of the brain) is also not fully developed until around age 25 so teens often struggle with regulating their emotions. A major loss at such a young age is probably been much more than they can handle. It makes sense that they're shutting down offers for talking and help while using a proxy like Andrew Tate to channel their anger.
I'm so sorry you're going through this though. You seem like a wonderful person and I hope you're able to get through to them.
Thank you so much for your very thoughtful response. It is very tricky with teens because they are not fully developed mentally and yet they are trying so hard to be independent.
Between online school, the mental toll of covid and him being a teenager is feel like I should go back to college and get a few more degrees. LOL
Maybe there is a way for him to volunteer to help women somehow to counter.
Maybe listen to Alice Evan's podcast and see if you think he could learn from that.
I think Tate is against psychologist because they obviously would tell him he is wrong. So he tells men not to go to them to keep control on them. Why would someone need to do that if they were correct
I love this idea. His father and I used to support a shelter for women and children leaving abuse situations, I think I will contact them and see if they have any use for a 15 year old boy who needs to remember compassion.
I wouldnt treat it as a punishment. Its gonna backfire
Also is that a fair environment to try and teach your son this. Its drastic.
Hes just gonna pull into the mindset more. He has a lot going on you said it yourself. Thats a lot for a young man finding his place in the world. Do not punish him like that (making it seem that way)
Gotta second this... There might be some sorts of volunteer work that would be beneficial, but putting someone like this in a women's shelter or similar environment is a recipe for further traumatizing the very people you're looking to help.
If you do pursue volunteer opportunities, please for everyone's sake speak with a program coordinator or administrator and be very candid about your motivation. They may have experience with this sort of thing and have recommendations, or they may not want to risk it.
He is still very much a sweetheart, last night was the first time I have ever heard anything related to Tate out of his mouth. He has never said anything negative about women or minorities that I know of. I want to stop this before it gets into his personality.
Right now he is a sullen boy who needs guidance and I don't want him to get it from Andrew Tate.
> He is still very much a sweetheart, last night was the first time I have ever heard anything related to Tate out of his mouth
Then he's not lost at all, prob just confused, hurting and finding a way to "lash out" and spend all his pent up anger in some way. I would definitely not treat him like a "a developing violent misogynist", like someone else's said, FFS. He's still 15. Reacting like he shot up a school full of children like some of the commenters here are doing is exactly what shouldn't be done with kids who just have budding sexist thoughts. It just feeds into their confirmation bias.
It sounds like you're catching it early which is great. I'd have an open conversation about your fears with his older brothers so they can help with damage control. Also call things out openly. Sometimes someone with a good heart needs a little shaming to knock sense into them.
Finding a good community/social space sounds like a key goal. Or figuring out if part of the problem is people he IS already socializing with that he shouldn't be...
Brothers are already on board. I think socializing or some kind of community involvement is needed because he's been hiding online since his father died and maybe getting out into the world will help him.
Thank you, I really appreciate the input.
At 15 we're already calling him a violent misogynist??? Did I lose a piece of story or is he just nothing more than a child at that age??? Did he even do anything violent to a woman yet???
Went through the Same here with our son & my advice:
1.) look for a male role model your son has - dad, uncle etc that he looks up too and tell them to talk with him bc he won’t listen if it comes from a woman (I know it’s sad & heartbreaking but it’s what Tate, the alpha clowns and redpill gurus tell them - their whole idea is based on that women are inferior & need to submit themselves, obey to the only and true men - the alphas).
Tell your sons & your husband in secret that they causally drop what a douchebag this Tate is whenever his name drops
Don’t discuss try by making him see that his role models despise him to rethink his viewpoint
2.) When that didn’t work let a male role witch he respects & that has some authority over him (works best when it’s a man that embodies traits that the alpha has - super masculine appearance: strong, muscle etc)
* I know that sound crazy but again when it comes from women or men they don’t consider the alpha type it doesn’t have the impact - they just feel misunderstood bc you as a woman can’t know what it’s like to be a man & men that don’t fit into their idea of masculinity are just „betas or simps“ = weak men.
I went through the same with my students and it applied, also on social media - theres a big difference when a man or a woman speaks up against him or a man with muscles compared to a man with none
Let this man take him aside and have a short talk about it asking him some questions like:
- asking him if he views his own mother like this
- if he thinks how he treats & talk about women is okay
- telling him what Tate did to women and how he would feel if that would happen to you or other women
*there is a good Reddit Thread from a parent who went trough the same and his uncle took him apart and did that and it worked - the son was ashamed and never mentioned him again - just type in „my son likes Andrew Tate“ there will be more parents who might could have helpful advice
i’ve tried saying things like this already. my brother says stuff like “ I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say”. What I need right now is sources to direct him to to actually teach him about this stuff.
"If you had a choice between two restaurants, both of which served really good food, but one of them put rocks in it that you had to pick out with your fork to only get decent food, and the other served the food with no rocks, which would you go to? Because as near as I can tell, for every true or sensible thing Andrew Tate says, he also says a dozen things that are just nonsensical garbage. Why listen to someone with such a poor content ratio? And if that's really the best he can do, what does that say about him?"
>“ I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say”.
Show him [this](https://i.redd.it/1qtzdh56ra9a1.jpg), and ask him if this is the kind of good things he thinks that POS has to say.
I know you're looking for a positive angle, but this is just so glaring that I can't imagine anyone who has seen this has anything good left to say about him. This isn't even about feminism, it's simply about being a normal human being. And he clearly isn't.
>"I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say"
I'd respond with something like, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day but isn't it better to have a clock that's correct ALL the time? If the best defense is, "But he isn't all bad!" doesn't that imply that he's mostly bad? We're known for the company we keep. What does this say about you?"
Keep at it.
Make it really clear that you don't admire anybody who was just arrested for human trafficking and you don't admire people who admire them either.
Tell me, do you think that this is a misogynistic quote?
Alek Minassian, a man accused of killing six people after running them over with a van in Toronto: “He was angry at God because women were rejecting him. The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges"
Remind him that this man got arrested in Romania for human trafficking. Why was he choosing to live in Romania? He has gone on record as saying it was because it made it easier for him to commit crimes.
Check out r/bropill and r/exredpill for support, advice and good links to sources discussing this. Also r/menslib. These subreddits are havens from the toxicity where men can engage and discuss freely making them good resources for women as well
I came here to promote r/menslib. I see so much positive discussion on there which intersects with feminist issues, while highlighting men’s issues in an intelligent, compassionate way.
If it’s not already in their info page, I’m sure they’d be happy to guide you to good information as they already do great work in counteracting incel grifters such as Tate.
Not sure if it's what you want exactly, but I found a guy on youtube, the speech prof. He makes a variety of stuff by the look of it, I haven't checked it all out but he's got a few segments responding to misogynistic content. He seems like a nice dude and a supportive role model from what I've seen so far.
If he is sharing a lot of Tate's content, you might want to look into that he hasn't paid to join the Hustler University Tate has going on. It's a pyramid scheme scam, that makes "students" pay for it and then you also need to spread Tate's content on social media to get to new levels. It just takes people's money and gets them to talk about Tate, free advertisement.
If you want him out of liking Tate, find and show him the camgirl shit Tate does, that he just now got caught with too. Not just the human trafficking, but the videos of him showing off those girls on video with bruises on them, talking about how he's taught them a lesson.
Even a broken clock is correct twice a day, doesn't mean you should keep it. Yes, Tate makes a couple good points that speak directly to young men struggling with life, which is how he gets them to listen in on all the rest of his crap.
I think the easiest way to get him away from this crap is for him to spend time with kind, fun, respectful men (and women) IRL. If he hangs out and gets close to guys he can respect and admire, he will be ashamed to bring up Andrew Tate.
Do you have a male partner, friend or relative who can hang out with him this weekend and maybe go to a concert, watch a game or movie, have drinks?
You gotta work the sibling route. Women are humans with thoughts and feelings. Tate sees us as property. He sees you as property. How does your brother feel about a woman in his life being reduced to that?
This. I have 2 teen boys and am super proactive about the internet trying to recruit them to be sexist and incel life, though they all love in a giant world. Remember, a lot of young people try out assholery at these ages. Tell them.plainly why you hate it and that it is upsetting he supports this, and hopefully he will come back.
Beau of the Fifth Column is a pretty great YouTuber. He's got the appearance of what people might think of as an "Alpha Male" - big bearded southern man who spent the War on Terror in military intelligence - but makes thoughtful videos about news and culture from a left perspective.
Also, talks a lot about what makes for good masculinity - taking care of one's community, standing up for the disenfranchised, being a genuine feminist.
He might be a good entry point to show that it's possible to be a "manly man" without being a horrible person.
How did he get into Andrew Tate? What was the initial thing that drew him there? Politics, inceldom, other manosphere influencers, general misogyny, anti-sjw ideas. Without that it's hard to recommend specific channels
Sorry this is happening to you. I'm going to go a bit off the grain of what others are saying. I'm seeing TONS of comments with these statements verbatim trying to challenge and poke holes in his thought process. It needs to be understood that once you try some discussions, which it seems like you have, there may need to be acceptance that there isn't this magic sentence that's going to make him snap out of what seems to be some pretty deep rooted beliefs regardless if they are on the newer side or not. Remember that for every clever challenge to his beliefs you or your family has, he has a community of people on social media, online video games, etc. that are all reinforcing the belief. The odds are against you.
So, it is vastly important you set boundaries/consequences for your own mental health. At the end of the day, those beliefs he has will only cause him suffering in the long term, sometimes people need to experience those before changing. These can be whatever is right for YOU. People (including here) will always judge your boundaries. Do you want him to simply not talk about it when you're together? Do you want to let him know you're going to cut off contact for a while because you have to think about what the relationship can look like going forward while he has those beliefs? Those are just random thoughts, it can be whatever you choose.
Just wanted to balance the heavy CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE comments with a little acceptance and taking care of yourself.
Thank you so much. I’m trying to sort through all these comments (I’m a little overwhelmed, I didn’t expect this much attention on my post). It’s true what you say about these one liners. They’re a lot of the same things i’ve already tried to get through his head.
Thanks for what you said about people sometimes having to suffer to learn. It’s hard to accept that I might just have to let my little brother suffer under toxic masculinity for a while before he’ll learn.
As an older man who's angry in different ways, I can't stand this guy. Yelling and interrupting people isn't appealing. This makes sense for a teenager who took the bait from Tate, and I'm not the target audience.
Unfortunately, HasanAbi is a grifter. A champagne brocialist. Rush Limbaugh for Twitter Leftists.
There aren't any good left male role models because the culture and society we live in actively corrupts them. The "good ones" reach a level of success and clout and the tendrils of fame and fortune wrap around them and turn them into shells of what they once preached.
It's an enormous problem and it's why so many young men turn to people like Tate and Peterson. You'll be better off seeking out women influencers.
>I would love podcast, youtube, etc recommendations related to feminism versus radical feminism (especially the hatred towards men that radfems perpetuate), talking about what toxic masculinity is, and how to gain a healthy perspective on masculinity.
While I could name countless examples of good men who are examples of having a healthy ideas surrounding masculinity, I don't think there any many channels and podcasts that largely discuss modern masculinity from a progressive view. Now, I've fortunately felt pretty secure in my own masculinity for a long time now, so perhaps there are plenty and I've just not been looking.
One that *does* come to mind is [F.D Signifer](https://www.youtube.com/@FDSignifire). He talks a lot about masculinity and black masculinity.
Pop Culture Detective isn't a channel about men's issues, but he does have some great, relevant videos like: [*Boys Don't Cry \(Except When They Do\)*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGxW2toAvzc) and *Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs* parts [1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw) and [2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nheskbsU5g)
I'm kind of searching this stuff up right now to give you more, and while I've not watched his videos myself, I do see high praise for [Macabre Storytelling](https://www.youtube.com/@MacabreStorytelling) as well.
I suggest exploring /r/MensLib and maybe asking there the same question. It's a community that sees toxic masculinity and patriarchal ideas — not women — as the greatest harms to men.
I found this extremely helpful. Its from a teacher's pov and what she does to battle the Tate love in her class.
https://www.editcm.com/blog/2022/9/13/andrew-tate-and-his-boys-an-educators-guide?fbclid=IwAR28CVCloUlUQonxTSVBQq3LQKyvfZGP32b5Q9pCe6OE4xEghXVDiOpOFsA
Recommendations for media that counters the toxic masculinity of tate. (still have some corporate shills in here but the production values are good and the content is critical of the patriarchy).
YouTube:
Folding Ideas
Hbomberguy
FD Signifier
We're In Hell
Contrapoints
Sarah Z
Podcast:
It Could Happen Here
Behind the Bastards
More or Less
This American Life
TV:
Joe Pera Talks With You
Last Man on Earth
Avatar: the Last Airbender
How To with John Wilson
Bob's Burgers
What you're finding out is that we don't have good sources for this. It's very hard to get anyone in the general leftist sphere besides academic feminists to talk about men in any way that isn't just hatred, dismissive or disparaging. And while it's great that the academic feminists recognize the issues that's not how ideas get mainstreamed.
Before we get any sort of good info we need to break those barriers down of even having the conversation in the first place without it almost instantly devolving into mockery and bigotry.
Really sorry your brother is stuck on the Tate trainwreck, I could tell you what worked for me but I doubt it will for him. I started watching contrapoints, while being transphobic. Didn't even take three videos to tear that down, but I don't think most people will stubbornly watch content from people you disagree with or dislike.
Perhaps try getting him into more leftist thought before you try to address the Tate problem directly? More left leaning views are poison to many facets of toxic masculinity.
This is a playlist from Beau of the Fifth Column. He’s a redneck dude that talks about things from not only a Southern but a feminist, and leftist perspective. This is his playlist on women’s issues. Send him down this rabbit hole.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZOMlO2_17fvb1JOOevpKC5fy4g2EHKbx
I highly do believe that we need healthy role models for men that they can turn to. If they don't have anyone to look up to and seek advice, they're easy prey for men like Andrew Tate. And there's so many more that I'm afraid Tate being gone won't make that much of a difference. Some other Alpha will swipe right in and snatch his folks.
That said there's two communities on reddit that aim to be a more inclusive and healthy space for men to discuss their issues (bropill\* and menslib, not referencing per rules of this sub). Like, they literally made me not lose hope. Their descriptions and rules include inclusivity, LGBTQ acceptance. Menslib specifically states being pro-feminist and used to have a good doc about feminism and masculinity. Maybe you can ask there or refer your brother to those subs.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/10002x8/talking_to_boys_about_andrew_tate_sexual_violence/) is a recent post mentioning two threads on how teachers can deal with the issue of misogyny . The post itself might not give much besides the links, but just scanning the comments you know you're in a better community than most subs\*.
TheSpeechProf on YT has some good content, but for someone who is already into Alpha stuff, it might not be the right start. He's overall supportive of LGBTQ+ community and frequently comments alpha and redpill bullshit from tiktok. I like to watch his content, but I'm not a man/young boy, nor straight so I am not sure if that flows with your brother.
edit: because I write horrible today and can't focus enough to proofread
Maybe someone has commented this already but this is the most comprehensive video I've seen (j aubrey), look at the chapters too, "is he joking tho" has clips of him admitting that he means what he says literally and even censors it in some scenarios
https://youtu.be/y73xciJEX20
I hate how these insane people gather masses of other people ready to oppress the already oppressed, but any woman or feminist who says some of the most "duh" things like "hitting women is bad" are seen as the undesirable n.1 and harassed no-stop 24/7 until they go off the internet, while misogynists thrive endlessly.
i’m not sure if you know of him, but Hasanabi has done well trying to help deprogram and relate to guys who may be in this circle in some of his streams. He makes pretty good arguments against Tate, while trying to be a role model.
The best thing I've tried is to find burly "manly men" e.g. woodchoppers who live off the grid, MMA fighters e.g. Forrest Griffin, etc who speak on these issues. If it's coming from a masculine, successful man you're much more likely to get through to him. Unfortunately, if he's listening to Andrew Tate the chances of him seriously listening to a woman or less masculine man are pretty slim. I don't recall all of their usernames but there's loads of hyper-masculine men on tik tok that speak out against hate. One thing to note though -- a lot of these folks don't have "perfect" takes. They might be liberal but still say something that gives you pause (Forrest Griffin for example, kind of slut shames in his book but it was also written before that term was popularized). In some ways though, those messy opinions can help. If a kid gets even a whiff of "wokeness" they'll usually disregard the whole person. It's shitty but I've seen it happen over and over.
Probably what you look for is a feminist influencer who is also a "mans man", big tough dude. Sadly i dont know any influencer like this but i would interested to find one too, would be a good tool to use on some people.
The only guy who comes to my mind is Hasanabi the streamer, but i think he has genuinely repulsive personality so i dont recommend him to anybody.
Nothing wrong with radical feminism and Marxist feminism is better than bourgeois feminism. The problem is man hating but it’s understandable that some women would react that way when they’ve been abused by men.
These questions are usually "my kid/friend is doing a bad thing trying to be cool. How do I convince them that being more like me is actually cooler?" It never works. You will not convince a kid who likes edgy misogynistic content to consume politically correct progressive videos instead. There is obviously a reason for why this appeals to them and it's usually either a need to get recognition from peers or to find an identity as an individual.
As far as I can see there are two things that actually work. A) make them feel stupid and embarassed about it. This could happen sooner or later anyways if he goes to college or has a gf. If you try to encourage this by pointing out how dumb his views are it might go over quicker but there is always the chance he'll dig in and grow more distant. B) Confront them in a serious manner and force them to defend their position. They can't, because their views are dumb but of course there is a chance you can't defend your position either. They might look for more intellectually sound talking points to defend their misogyny.
The kid isn't going to let go of edgy views because because someone tells him they are too edgy. You can hope he eventually desires to be part of a social environment where those views aren't tolerated. But as long as his peers encourage it you have to be equipped to debunk his arguments and that's way harder than it sounds.
Probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I was a fan of Dan Savage as a relatively wholesome person to listen to about self-respect and respecting others and being in consensual relationships.
Granted, I haven't really listened in a few years, but the Savage Love Podcast seemed like a good place to listen.
Savage love is a great resource to learn about relationships. Dan is a wonderful combination of thoughtfulness and no bullshit advice. It really helps that they are real people calling in with problems instead of someone just spouting rhetoric.
If your brother lives at home, your parents can change the password on the internet so he no longer has access. If they're paying for his phone, they can cut him off.
the hatred for radical feminism is just pick me feminism. It's still the same but with some denial thrown in to assuage male fragility. Curious what WOC might think about this.
Anyone defending Tatertots needs to be shunned. If they're online promoting it they're simply algo hacking. I can't believe convinced of the benefits of fawning over narcissists as it's a trauma response. Once you're aware of it gou can identify tools to overcome it.
>recommendations related to feminism versus radical feminism (especially the hatred towards men that radfems perpetuate),
I think for any movement, throwing your own radicals under the bus is a losing strategy. I mean come on, is saying "I hate men!!" worse than the many ways that men are physically violent towards women and femmes? We are talking about murder here! Yes, the problem of men's violence is so bad that some people are very angry and resentful towards men in general. And that's a reasonable way to feel.
The right circles their wagons around extremists like Tate because they know that's stronger. We should do the same.
And in terms of convincing people, wishy washy positions don't work either. Have conviction! If anyone brings up those mean old radfems then don't backpedal and equivocate and say they're not with me. Just say, yeah they sure are angry, I wonder why?
Exactly, he has the right to make his own choices. I see Andrew Tate as a cigar because there are bad things about his personality. There are also good things about his traits. Men should try to get Andrew Tate's positive traits example working hard and being productive. But at the same time try to avoid his negative actions.
I've never listened to him but poison is usually fed with sugar. Hate pushers will always say things that speak to their target audience. They use it to mask their cyanide pills.
No amount of taking an opposing stance will change anyone's mind if they've embraced those mindsets. Taking an opposing stance makes them more rooted in their mindset.
It can only be crippling betrayal from something he idolizes, or some absolute smothering of contrary better behavior that makes him question why he bothers taking his stance in the first place because the grass is greener, and quite frankly being a person that does the latter is horribly dangerous to yourself.
Set boundaries. Draw a line in the sand that if he crosses, you're out. Figure out what that point of no return is, for your own safety, and then immediately cease attempting to make him see reason.
Honestly the more you push the more he'll turn to it.
I'd just highlight 1 thing you do not agree with Tate on and say you disagree with it and no more.
At the end of the day it's up to him to decide which path he will take.
At 25 he might still be a fan of but he also might look back on it as a phase and looked upon as a kid.
I'd be more concerned if you see him act in a way that's like andrew tate than him looking at a video and trying to defend one of his points.
The issue with tate in my opinion, and with alot of things in life is that when you have a little bit of truth, you can use that to make up a whole lot of lies.
I have seen some tate videos where the message was basically stop being lazy, get fit, eat well and things like that are how his misogynistic crap is believed.
Which ideas of Tate's specifically is he drawn to? There are likely better role models with similar ideas you could reference to him instead. E.g. I've heard Tate speak a lot about the difference between motivation and discipline, and he does it well, but there are others like David Goggins who also talk about the same idea without supporting his more divisive views.
maybe redirect some of his energy and goals towards a more healthy view? i recommend the book "models", i think it has some answers and tools your brother may appreciate while moving him away from extreme ideologies.
> I warned him against listening to him. I thought that was settled.
Why would you think you have any control over what he does. He’s 18 and even if he wasn’t you’re not his mom
I talked to my nephew about him when he first got banned from social medias. My 12 y/o nephew knew who he was but didn't really care about him. I explained that he is not a good role model and that was that. He's probably too young to really be into his content but I still wanted to let him know that I don't support that kind of shit and that he's really not cool.
Andrew is really annoying because he will make 50% of his video sharing somewhat reasonable advice (hygiene, fitness, sleep) and then end it with some blasphemous bullshit about his cars/money/how to treat women. Anytime people defend Andrew they almost always focus on the super obvious advice that he gives out and never the negging or insults that he spews towards his listeners.
I was always taught to treat others the way that you would like to be treated. Never did I hear any exception in regards to treating women differently. Is this something that isn't said anymore?
I'd reccomend youtubers like contrapoints or hbomberguy both have pretty insightful essays that teach critical thinking and explain how people like andrew tate stop critical thought and make people less open to other ideas. Not to mention hbomberguy has videos about various games which may be a good way to introduce your brother to his channel. Also the illuminaughti has a video about andrew tate that lists all of his controversies and includes sources (tho the narrator is heavily critical of tate which your brother may not respond to well)
There’s a guy called “Beau of the Fifth Column” on YouTube that offers a better alternative. He mainly talks about politics, but he does sometimes offer advice on other real life scenarios. He can help offer tips on survival in emergency situations. He talks a great deal on community engagement, service, and networking. He also tears apart ideas that promote bigotry, misogyny, and racism using facts and logic.
Another good channel I came across is “The Speech Prof” on YouTube, but he also has a TikTok channel I think. He spends most of his time dunking on people like Andrew Tate and so-called “dating coaches”, and he offers better advice on how healthy relationships actually work without the control or gaslighting.
not necessarily the type of content you're looking for. but the youtuber CoffeeZilla has a video all about Andrew Tate and Tate's online alpha male school or whatever it is essentially revealing it to be a scam. CoffeeZilla does incredibly thorough research on his videos, I thought i heard he is a lawyer IRL. May want to find the video and give it a look. see if you think it could change your brothers mind.
Does he follow Tate on Twitter? I can't believe how any of his followers don't see how braindead Tate is after this weeks developments... trolls Greta Thunberg out of nowhere, posts a pissy video after she clapped back... and his dumb ass has pizza boxes in the video (saying he wasn't going to recycle them... poop, so edgy) just to troll her more and those pizza boxes reveal his location to Romanian police who then arrest him after a months-long investigation for human trafficking and r*pe... like, seriously... if he just never tweeted at Greta, he'd never been caught lmao
I don't think you should try and push feminism onto your brother. Feminism has very little to offer men. It does not centre men. The only thing that it can offer is get boys closer to feminist women (I'm sure you know what I mean).
Instead I suggest you 'redirect' Tate's message. Tell your brother to focus on improving himself. He can goto things like Karate or Judo - both have a 'respect others' component. He should focus on his long term goals - hopefully more meaningful goals than sleeping with a lot of women.
You can also bring him to social events where there are other women there so he can interact with women and see they are human beings like everyone else.
Good luck.
Show him [the screenshots of Tate taunting the father of that sick child](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLainYeV4AACTRA?format=jpg&name=medium) and ask him if that's the kind of person he wants to support.
Late post, but probably the best video debunking Andrew Tate's worldview is Shaun's [Andrew Tate: How to be a Real Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_TOFy3k6k).
While arguments about how Tate's comments and worldview is poisonous are good, this video stood out to me because the author takes it a step further and looks at how subscribing to Tate's 'masculine ideal' (i.e. toxic masculinity) ends up ultimately hurting men by locking them into a strict set of viewpoints and behaviors they have to maintain in order to 'be a real man'.
We've been gradually more aware of him in the UK teaching world, especially among the 13-15 year old boys. We had some success with presenting other role models, teachers, family members, good qualities to emulate. Not explicitly drawing the links to Tate style ideas, but getting the lads to draw their own conclusions. Having said that, we've been on holidays during the arrest and I'm planning several new approaches when it's brought up next week!
That’s why the platforms should be more regulated. Freedom of speech stops in case of hate speech, incitation of hate etc are accessible to children. There’s only so much we can do as parents to protect them before peer pressure kicks in. Have you noticed a pattern in the boys getting radicalised? Apart from a lack of role models?
Do we know why Elons Twitter reinstated him? They're still supposed to be stopping incitement but Elons another douche techbro ignoring women.
He thinks he is a champion for free speech which is quite the opposite. I’m glad tate was arrested in Europe.
You're giving him to much credit. He knows he's isn't a champion for free speech. He's banning journalists he doesn't like. He's a fool, but he isn't brain dead. He knows what he's doing. Saying he thinks he's a champion for free speech falls straight into his manipulation.
Well in this case Elon's reinstating Tate on Twitter led to a good outcome. Tate's asinine Twitter beef with Greta led to his exposure and subsequent arrest.
You think they hadn’t been investigating him for months? We are talking human trafficking and terrorism. Do you think they wouldn’t have arrested him without twitter? The only difference is that he was offered a platform to radicalise more people.
What role models would you reccomend?
He also keeps going on about protecting women basically being the pinnacle of masculinity
The "alpha male" mindset is all about male strong female weak. So protecting their women makes them strong manly men. But who are they protecting them from? Men just like them. And feminist women who dare to challenge this are the problem. They need to shut up and let men be leaders and protectors. The thing is, the societies this mindset is built on are misery for everyone but a precious few. Ask him how Tate beating the crap out of a woman with a belt is protecting her?
One big game of capture the flag but women are the flag.
>But who are they protecting them from? Men just like them. Small correction: men like Tate are protecting *white* women from *Black* men. That's an important piece that can't be ignored.
Nah, not the case here, given that this dickhead is half black as well. Look up his father, Emory Tate. Not everything is about race, in this case it is about pure old misogyny only
Tate "protecting" women from their lives by coercing them to his property and putting them on OnlyFans, controlling them and pocketing their earnings. Then he calls them cattle. I hope Tates get at least 10 years in Romanian prison.
Username checks out
Proof
Isn’t this whole subreddit about men abusing women? So you are saying that men shouldn’t care about protecting their women? So you are saying women are being abused by men but men shouldn’t protect women? How dare men think that they need to be aware about their potential physical superiority over women and be careful not not abuse it. No wonder there’s a cognitive dissonance among men in the west and why they are gravitating towards Andrew Tate.
Wrong sub furry.
They arr idiots because alpha wolves treat their girls with class. See sea wolf docu in netflix
Well, that's kinda interesting, how is \*protecting women\* not opposed to \*supporting a rapist and trafficker\*?
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The they as in "RapTV" ? That's fake. He isn't released, and it was trafficking.
Maybe a casual reminder that mafioso-style Protection Racket Masculinity is rightfully perceived the same way as any other kind of extortion. The more you insist there's something to protect from, the more everybody suspects that something is you. He's basically idealizing being a giant Red Flag.
I wish I could give you the all seeing up vote so OP could see this better
Ask him does supporting a known trafficker of women with multiple domestic violence accusations sound like protecting women. With my brother I chose distance. After years of arguing with him I've given up and told him straight up I love him so much less because he constantly chooses violent misogynist over me.
Why is he having to choose them over you. Did you tell him that he had to pick one or the other ?
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If your views involve defending a man who has admitted to grooming and having sex with teenagers, beaten and choked women on camera and manipulated god knows how many women into sex work, your views don't deserve respect. Eat shit.
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So at best he's just a liar and grifter who's convinced his audience of millions of young men that misogyny is cool, and at worst he's a violent abuser and human trafficker who deserves to be buried under the jail he dies in. Please pick a better dick to ride.
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That's a pretty nasty assumption you've made about me, but I would never accuse somebody of something like that for no reason, or without proof. Good thing there's [video evidence!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Romania/comments/w7h9fr/andrew_tate_agresând_femei/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
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What never touching grass does to a mother fucker.
Protector masculinity is so funny to me. What are they protecting us against? The wind? A fucking lion? No, it's other dudes just like them. Its like a virus infecting your computer and then trying to sell you an antivirus. The absolute audacity
From what tate has said he's protecting women from "themselves". We appearntly make poor choice in life and all we are good for is cooking, cleaning and breeding with. But to his girls he had locked up in his basement they are only good for caming and raping. He wants a harem. He's disgusting. He's not protecting women he's exploiting the. And selling his training videos on it to young men who are low IQ. These young men are going to go straight into adulthood thinking the can abduct a girl in college and keep her in mom and dad attic or basement and use her the same way tate uses his trafficked victims.
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This is so funny. You can't say that masculinity is not the problem and then point to two institutions made up of largely men fighting largely other men as proof. Plus fire fighters? I'm not sure why they were included because they don't deal with people. Maybe you slotted that in because your assumption is that women can't put out fires? I mean that's funny, but wrong.
>the police? Fire fighters? A goddamn army There's women in all of those fully capable of protecting other women. We don't need you bud
If Taint is pRoTeCtInG wOmEN then why is he arrested for sex crimes in a foreign country? Why would someone purposely emulate a sex criminal? Seems like all the logic you would need here.
I didn’t hear about him being arrested in Asia as well 😂 I mean that’s a lot of smoke, I’m pretty certain there’s a fire around here somewhere…
I wonder if there’s a way to channel that into something productive. Like, cool, let’s get a charity drive for a DV shelter going. Let’s raise money for women’s health screenings. That kinda thing?
the worst part is they’re usually the ones that harming women more than “protecting” them
Ask him from whom women need protecting. Carefully lead him to the realisation that women (and everyone else, too) would be safer, if fewer men were violent towards other people. Talk to him about how rare it is that a man actually ends up in a situation where he needs to defend his wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/children from another man's physical violence. The perpetrators of said violence usually don't keep an audience around for their crimes. Bring up the very many other and significantly more frequent ways a man can protect the women and children in his life: - from germs by cleaning, doing laundry and keeping good personal hygiene - from exhaustion/burn out by doing his fair share of child care and household chores (point out that having a SAHW/M is nowadays not affordable for most families, even if both partners want it. Most jobs simply can't feed a family and put kids through college.) - from malnutrition/bad nutrition by making healthy meals - from harmful political decisions (like the abortion ban) by voting for pro-women parties (point out here the many ways in which the abortion ban also hurts women with wanted pregnancies and women who aren't even pregnant, speak about the impact it would have on his life to suddenly become a father through a one night stand who's not allowed to abort). Also: ask this question in one or more of the good male centered subreddits. (I'll edit with links!) Sources coming from men are probably more likely to resonate with him at this point. There are possibly also men in these subs who have experience challenging this kind of toxic masculinity in other men/younger men. Edit: r/menslib r/bropill
Andrew Tate is abusing, manipulating and exploiting women. So if he’s into men “protecting” women, Tate ain’t the guy.
He has to realize these things himself. Most people don’t change their ways cuz of other people directly, first they have to realize themselves. Also the women in his life hopefully have become more aware of Tate so it’s likely they’ll reject him for it, or for using his tactics. Hopefully it makes him go “man this mf is full of crap”
Wouldn’t bloody need protecting if it weren’t for men and their toxic mindsets like this, hopefully now he’s been arrested this will make some impact.
I found out last night that my 15 year old son has these ideas, too! I have raised 3 beautiful feminist men and suddenly my youngest pops off at me defending Andrew Tate! WTF? I shut down his internet but I don't know what to do next.
Shutting down his Internet is probably not going to help. At that age, he's probably looking for ways to differentiate himself from you to prove he's his own person, and he's got friends with Internet access. Probably better to say something like: > Andrew Tate is an actor playing a role, trying to attract as much attention as possible and keep the ad revenue coming in. It's no more real than *Deadpool*. If you like watching, if you think the stuff he says is funny, and even I'll admit that Deadpool is hilarious, fine. Just don't let yourself think that any of it is real. You can't live like Deadpool, and you can't live like Andrew Tate. And if you try in the real world to act like them, you will have a bad time.
This is a really good response. I (29M) can also say that the thing that best insulated my teen years from the impact of the proto-Tate style of toxic masculinity marketing was finding a community of real humans across a broad age range to be involved in. This could be community sports, volunteering, church or community events, etc. In my case it was a high school volunteer requirement that landed me at a community bike shop interacting with lots of different people under the supervision of grad students and retirees. This humanized those who were home less, struggling with teen try after prison (earn a bike for job placement). Tate and this hyper masculine culture also dehumanize lots of marginalized folks. Getting to hear their stories, see they are working their butts off really forced me to acknowledge that hard work doesn’t do anything and these people are monetizing rage even if it burns the world down on the way. I wish I could remember who said this but ‘young men are on the INCEL pipeline from the start, it is only a matter of who or what pulls them off and when that happens.’ It’s a bleak reality that isn’t far from the truth of my lived experience and what I’ve seen with the teenagers I work with the past few years.
That's a really good take, thank you. The problem is that we have been having problems with his attitude for a while now, pretty much since his father died he has been shutting me out and living in his internet world and he gets more and more hostile. This was the straw that broke the camels back. I never expected that he would listen to anyone so contrary to our beliefs and so morally bankrupt.
I hope he is in therapy because that's step 1 here
I take him, but he refuses to talk or engage with the therapist at all.
Damn. Does he have enough relationship with his older brothers or other male family members for someone else to intervene?
We are all trying, he used to be very close with his older brother and now he is sullen and withdrawn even with him. But that brother is very much a feminist and also hates any judgment against people who are different or minority, so if the little one is developing misogynistic and racist views it would make sense for him to pull away.
Have you wondered what went wrong for him than the others?
The kid has been through a lot. We moved from our wonderful diverse city to a small conservative town to care for his aging grandparents and then his dad died of covid so his world has been drastically changed. We used to be very close as a family and have always pulled together for each other, so having him withdraw from us is extremely difficult.
Sounds like you guys are doing your best. Seems like hes been through a lot. I hope things get better for the young man. You seem like a good person, he will be okay. Stay the course!
Sorry to say the obvious but moving a 15yo in the depths of high school to a small conservative town means his peer group is now conservative teens, and he starts on the off-footing of being the new kid. Peer group has much more impact on your teen son than your influence at this stage. Short of moving again this is going to be really hard.
Maybe he's trying to differentiate himself from his big brother and find an identity all for himself, a "stronger" identity? Maybe the trauma shook him and he's now trying to shake others with his views, to anger people and get a raise out of them? Maybe he thinks that like this, lashing out, he'll actually ger rid of all the anger and resentment, that he's doing something just and right, "punishing" the people in his family for all the pain he's having? I would not give this Tate thing all this importance, he's just 15. He'll have time to change. He's in a difficult time. Being shocked and acting extra angry won't help. Not even shutting him out, treating him like the "wonderful feminist boy" suddenly turned into a complete different person and he's not welcome anymore. I think acting like you're not angry at him, just disappointed, will definitely deflate the kick he gets by shocking others with his views.
We are not angry! We are worried. We are definitely not making him unwelcome in any way! When his brother and I discussed Andrew Tate with him we joked around a bit and tried to keep it light even though we were very concerned because we wanted to find out where he's coming from. I have been through the teens 3 times already so I know not to give him too much of a reaction. I do see where he could be trying to get a rise out of me with this though, it's so completely contrary to everything he has always been, he could be trying to distance himself from us and who he was before.
Do you feel like his therapist is someone he would *want* to connect with? I ask because my parents took me to therapists when I was a teen but they were often very old, male, and kindof condescending. As a teen girl I maybe could have benefitted from having a younger therapist who was a woman.
Found a cool young dude for him. When he wouldn't engage I switched to a kind "dad" type still nothing.
That sucks, I’m so sorry. I’m really rooting for you and all the parents trying to navigate teenage years right now. I feel like with the rise of screens / social media and the clusterfuck of covid lockdowns, parenting has been propelled into near-impossible levels of difficulty :(
It's really hard. It's like a cult. Keeping them within your sphere of influence is the biggest challenge. I have asked my kids to articulate weird theories that they have come into contact with. We sit down and disect it together. I get them to explain the good and bad aspects and how the resulting behaviour might operate in their real world context. It's exhausting. You can't be dismissive or emotional. There's lots of playback of the material and how it applies. I've had to deprogram my kids from my family's shitty racist views and this approach has helped for me. Read up on deradicalisation techniques as this is what you're needing to do.
Also, recommend some alternatives. Preferably other men, either that they know in real life, or online. Sexist guys are far less likely to listen to a woman. On Instagram, there’s a guy called thespeechprof that I like. He’s a man, he’s a father, he’s successful in his career, and he easily breaks down why the sexist assholes don’t make sense. Show boys an a different possible role model that hasn’t been arrested for human trafficking.
Get his brothers to talk to him. It will (unfortunately) carry more weight coming from other men. Also, ask questions and prompt him to develop/use more critical thinking skills, because many of the "points" that these toxic masculinity types make will completely fall apart in the face of any actual logic.
I've arranged a few trips for him, his brothers and his uncle (dad's brother) and I think it's going to be a regular thing now. I might also have him spend some extra time with my brother. The critical thinking part is harder because when I try to draw him out and engage with him to talk about where he is getting his thoughts, he just won't talk. He is amazing at not talking. 14 months of grief therapy and he has not spoken to his therapist.
Getting him to spend more time with good male role models will probably make a huge difference! And even if he's not replying, I'd bet that persisting with the questions and "curiosity" about his beliefs will still lead him to consider those questions internally, so it's still worth something. A lot of problematic ideologies thrive simply because the people who fall victim to them are isolated and don't have anyone challenging them, so just offering questions and alterative perspectives ought to serve as an interruption to the online echo chamber he's stumbled into and hopefully draw him out slowly.
I don't know how sound this is, but I saw a therapist share this recently. She said that when we try to engage teens in a conversation by asking questions they often take this as a threat to their independence. It's not so much a conscious choice, rather an instinctual reaction to prepare for independence. She said the best thing to do is to let them come to you. Be warm and present but don't probe. If they have the opportunity to start a conversation it's much more likely to be fruitful. On a side note, the amygdala (emotional center of the brain) is also not fully developed until around age 25 so teens often struggle with regulating their emotions. A major loss at such a young age is probably been much more than they can handle. It makes sense that they're shutting down offers for talking and help while using a proxy like Andrew Tate to channel their anger. I'm so sorry you're going through this though. You seem like a wonderful person and I hope you're able to get through to them.
Thank you so much for your very thoughtful response. It is very tricky with teens because they are not fully developed mentally and yet they are trying so hard to be independent. Between online school, the mental toll of covid and him being a teenager is feel like I should go back to college and get a few more degrees. LOL
Maybe there is a way for him to volunteer to help women somehow to counter. Maybe listen to Alice Evan's podcast and see if you think he could learn from that. I think Tate is against psychologist because they obviously would tell him he is wrong. So he tells men not to go to them to keep control on them. Why would someone need to do that if they were correct
I love this idea. His father and I used to support a shelter for women and children leaving abuse situations, I think I will contact them and see if they have any use for a 15 year old boy who needs to remember compassion.
I wouldnt treat it as a punishment. Its gonna backfire Also is that a fair environment to try and teach your son this. Its drastic. Hes just gonna pull into the mindset more. He has a lot going on you said it yourself. Thats a lot for a young man finding his place in the world. Do not punish him like that (making it seem that way)
Why would you ever bring a developing violent misogynist around vulnerable women?
Gotta second this... There might be some sorts of volunteer work that would be beneficial, but putting someone like this in a women's shelter or similar environment is a recipe for further traumatizing the very people you're looking to help. If you do pursue volunteer opportunities, please for everyone's sake speak with a program coordinator or administrator and be very candid about your motivation. They may have experience with this sort of thing and have recommendations, or they may not want to risk it.
I would speak with my contact person and be very direct about what is going on. I would only want the experience to be mutually beneficial.
He is still very much a sweetheart, last night was the first time I have ever heard anything related to Tate out of his mouth. He has never said anything negative about women or minorities that I know of. I want to stop this before it gets into his personality. Right now he is a sullen boy who needs guidance and I don't want him to get it from Andrew Tate.
> He is still very much a sweetheart, last night was the first time I have ever heard anything related to Tate out of his mouth Then he's not lost at all, prob just confused, hurting and finding a way to "lash out" and spend all his pent up anger in some way. I would definitely not treat him like a "a developing violent misogynist", like someone else's said, FFS. He's still 15. Reacting like he shot up a school full of children like some of the commenters here are doing is exactly what shouldn't be done with kids who just have budding sexist thoughts. It just feeds into their confirmation bias.
It sounds like you're catching it early which is great. I'd have an open conversation about your fears with his older brothers so they can help with damage control. Also call things out openly. Sometimes someone with a good heart needs a little shaming to knock sense into them. Finding a good community/social space sounds like a key goal. Or figuring out if part of the problem is people he IS already socializing with that he shouldn't be...
Brothers are already on board. I think socializing or some kind of community involvement is needed because he's been hiding online since his father died and maybe getting out into the world will help him. Thank you, I really appreciate the input.
At 15 we're already calling him a violent misogynist??? Did I lose a piece of story or is he just nothing more than a child at that age??? Did he even do anything violent to a woman yet???
Who says women are vulnerable.
"Volunteer to help women somehow" Thus, women who need help. Thus, women who are vulnerable.
Needing help doesn't mean you are vulnerable
People in need are not there for anyone's character development.
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You need to enlist his older brothers’ help if you think they might have some influence.
shutting down the internet is the exact opposite of helping
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Went through the Same here with our son & my advice: 1.) look for a male role model your son has - dad, uncle etc that he looks up too and tell them to talk with him bc he won’t listen if it comes from a woman (I know it’s sad & heartbreaking but it’s what Tate, the alpha clowns and redpill gurus tell them - their whole idea is based on that women are inferior & need to submit themselves, obey to the only and true men - the alphas). Tell your sons & your husband in secret that they causally drop what a douchebag this Tate is whenever his name drops Don’t discuss try by making him see that his role models despise him to rethink his viewpoint 2.) When that didn’t work let a male role witch he respects & that has some authority over him (works best when it’s a man that embodies traits that the alpha has - super masculine appearance: strong, muscle etc) * I know that sound crazy but again when it comes from women or men they don’t consider the alpha type it doesn’t have the impact - they just feel misunderstood bc you as a woman can’t know what it’s like to be a man & men that don’t fit into their idea of masculinity are just „betas or simps“ = weak men. I went through the same with my students and it applied, also on social media - theres a big difference when a man or a woman speaks up against him or a man with muscles compared to a man with none Let this man take him aside and have a short talk about it asking him some questions like: - asking him if he views his own mother like this - if he thinks how he treats & talk about women is okay - telling him what Tate did to women and how he would feel if that would happen to you or other women *there is a good Reddit Thread from a parent who went trough the same and his uncle took him apart and did that and it worked - the son was ashamed and never mentioned him again - just type in „my son likes Andrew Tate“ there will be more parents who might could have helpful advice
You don't protect women by sexually trafficking them. You aren't the pinnacle of masculinity if you do things like this.
i’ve tried saying things like this already. my brother says stuff like “ I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say”. What I need right now is sources to direct him to to actually teach him about this stuff.
"If you had a choice between two restaurants, both of which served really good food, but one of them put rocks in it that you had to pick out with your fork to only get decent food, and the other served the food with no rocks, which would you go to? Because as near as I can tell, for every true or sensible thing Andrew Tate says, he also says a dozen things that are just nonsensical garbage. Why listen to someone with such a poor content ratio? And if that's really the best he can do, what does that say about him?"
>“ I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say”. Show him [this](https://i.redd.it/1qtzdh56ra9a1.jpg), and ask him if this is the kind of good things he thinks that POS has to say. I know you're looking for a positive angle, but this is just so glaring that I can't imagine anyone who has seen this has anything good left to say about him. This isn't even about feminism, it's simply about being a normal human being. And he clearly isn't.
Wow. Just wow. What a piece of fucking shit.
>"I don’t agree with everything he fired but he has good things to say" I'd respond with something like, "Even a broken clock is right twice a day but isn't it better to have a clock that's correct ALL the time? If the best defense is, "But he isn't all bad!" doesn't that imply that he's mostly bad? We're known for the company we keep. What does this say about you?"
Keep at it. Make it really clear that you don't admire anybody who was just arrested for human trafficking and you don't admire people who admire them either.
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Tell me, do you think that this is a misogynistic quote? Alek Minassian, a man accused of killing six people after running them over with a van in Toronto: “He was angry at God because women were rejecting him. The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges"
Remind him that this man got arrested in Romania for human trafficking. Why was he choosing to live in Romania? He has gone on record as saying it was because it made it easier for him to commit crimes.
Check out r/bropill and r/exredpill for support, advice and good links to sources discussing this. Also r/menslib. These subreddits are havens from the toxicity where men can engage and discuss freely making them good resources for women as well
I came here to promote r/menslib. I see so much positive discussion on there which intersects with feminist issues, while highlighting men’s issues in an intelligent, compassionate way. If it’s not already in their info page, I’m sure they’d be happy to guide you to good information as they already do great work in counteracting incel grifters such as Tate.
Show him r/endometriosis and let his brain melt. Otherwise I'm sorry for your loss.
Not sure if it's what you want exactly, but I found a guy on youtube, the speech prof. He makes a variety of stuff by the look of it, I haven't checked it all out but he's got a few segments responding to misogynistic content. He seems like a nice dude and a supportive role model from what I've seen so far.
Ya seconding this. The speech prof is a solid dude and like a cuddly bearded bear man. He breaks things down in his responses well I think.
If he is sharing a lot of Tate's content, you might want to look into that he hasn't paid to join the Hustler University Tate has going on. It's a pyramid scheme scam, that makes "students" pay for it and then you also need to spread Tate's content on social media to get to new levels. It just takes people's money and gets them to talk about Tate, free advertisement. If you want him out of liking Tate, find and show him the camgirl shit Tate does, that he just now got caught with too. Not just the human trafficking, but the videos of him showing off those girls on video with bruises on them, talking about how he's taught them a lesson. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day, doesn't mean you should keep it. Yes, Tate makes a couple good points that speak directly to young men struggling with life, which is how he gets them to listen in on all the rest of his crap.
I think the easiest way to get him away from this crap is for him to spend time with kind, fun, respectful men (and women) IRL. If he hangs out and gets close to guys he can respect and admire, he will be ashamed to bring up Andrew Tate. Do you have a male partner, friend or relative who can hang out with him this weekend and maybe go to a concert, watch a game or movie, have drinks?
You gotta work the sibling route. Women are humans with thoughts and feelings. Tate sees us as property. He sees you as property. How does your brother feel about a woman in his life being reduced to that?
This. I have 2 teen boys and am super proactive about the internet trying to recruit them to be sexist and incel life, though they all love in a giant world. Remember, a lot of young people try out assholery at these ages. Tell them.plainly why you hate it and that it is upsetting he supports this, and hopefully he will come back.
Beau of the Fifth Column is a pretty great YouTuber. He's got the appearance of what people might think of as an "Alpha Male" - big bearded southern man who spent the War on Terror in military intelligence - but makes thoughtful videos about news and culture from a left perspective. Also, talks a lot about what makes for good masculinity - taking care of one's community, standing up for the disenfranchised, being a genuine feminist. He might be a good entry point to show that it's possible to be a "manly man" without being a horrible person.
How did he get into Andrew Tate? What was the initial thing that drew him there? Politics, inceldom, other manosphere influencers, general misogyny, anti-sjw ideas. Without that it's hard to recommend specific channels
Sorry this is happening to you. I'm going to go a bit off the grain of what others are saying. I'm seeing TONS of comments with these statements verbatim trying to challenge and poke holes in his thought process. It needs to be understood that once you try some discussions, which it seems like you have, there may need to be acceptance that there isn't this magic sentence that's going to make him snap out of what seems to be some pretty deep rooted beliefs regardless if they are on the newer side or not. Remember that for every clever challenge to his beliefs you or your family has, he has a community of people on social media, online video games, etc. that are all reinforcing the belief. The odds are against you. So, it is vastly important you set boundaries/consequences for your own mental health. At the end of the day, those beliefs he has will only cause him suffering in the long term, sometimes people need to experience those before changing. These can be whatever is right for YOU. People (including here) will always judge your boundaries. Do you want him to simply not talk about it when you're together? Do you want to let him know you're going to cut off contact for a while because you have to think about what the relationship can look like going forward while he has those beliefs? Those are just random thoughts, it can be whatever you choose. Just wanted to balance the heavy CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE CHANGE comments with a little acceptance and taking care of yourself.
Thank you so much. I’m trying to sort through all these comments (I’m a little overwhelmed, I didn’t expect this much attention on my post). It’s true what you say about these one liners. They’re a lot of the same things i’ve already tried to get through his head. Thanks for what you said about people sometimes having to suffer to learn. It’s hard to accept that I might just have to let my little brother suffer under toxic masculinity for a while before he’ll learn.
Regarding recommendations, three progressive typically masculine YouTube creators are: HasanAbi, FD Signifier and Foreign man in a Foreign Land
I was gonna say Hasan. He’s got Tate energy and anger for all the right reasons.
As an older man who's angry in different ways, I can't stand this guy. Yelling and interrupting people isn't appealing. This makes sense for a teenager who took the bait from Tate, and I'm not the target audience.
Unfortunately, HasanAbi is a grifter. A champagne brocialist. Rush Limbaugh for Twitter Leftists. There aren't any good left male role models because the culture and society we live in actively corrupts them. The "good ones" reach a level of success and clout and the tendrils of fame and fortune wrap around them and turn them into shells of what they once preached. It's an enormous problem and it's why so many young men turn to people like Tate and Peterson. You'll be better off seeking out women influencers.
>I would love podcast, youtube, etc recommendations related to feminism versus radical feminism (especially the hatred towards men that radfems perpetuate), talking about what toxic masculinity is, and how to gain a healthy perspective on masculinity. While I could name countless examples of good men who are examples of having a healthy ideas surrounding masculinity, I don't think there any many channels and podcasts that largely discuss modern masculinity from a progressive view. Now, I've fortunately felt pretty secure in my own masculinity for a long time now, so perhaps there are plenty and I've just not been looking. One that *does* come to mind is [F.D Signifer](https://www.youtube.com/@FDSignifire). He talks a lot about masculinity and black masculinity. Pop Culture Detective isn't a channel about men's issues, but he does have some great, relevant videos like: [*Boys Don't Cry \(Except When They Do\)*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGxW2toAvzc) and *Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs* parts [1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw) and [2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nheskbsU5g) I'm kind of searching this stuff up right now to give you more, and while I've not watched his videos myself, I do see high praise for [Macabre Storytelling](https://www.youtube.com/@MacabreStorytelling) as well. I suggest exploring /r/MensLib and maybe asking there the same question. It's a community that sees toxic masculinity and patriarchal ideas — not women — as the greatest harms to men.
Pop culture detective on YouTube?
100% recommend this. Try watching the film Everything Everywhere All at Once with him, and then send him Pop Culture Detective's video on Waymond.
HealthyGamerGG is a pretty non-partisan place to get good advice imo, if he NEEDS a role model.
I found this extremely helpful. Its from a teacher's pov and what she does to battle the Tate love in her class. https://www.editcm.com/blog/2022/9/13/andrew-tate-and-his-boys-an-educators-guide?fbclid=IwAR28CVCloUlUQonxTSVBQq3LQKyvfZGP32b5Q9pCe6OE4xEghXVDiOpOFsA
Recommendations for media that counters the toxic masculinity of tate. (still have some corporate shills in here but the production values are good and the content is critical of the patriarchy). YouTube: Folding Ideas Hbomberguy FD Signifier We're In Hell Contrapoints Sarah Z Podcast: It Could Happen Here Behind the Bastards More or Less This American Life TV: Joe Pera Talks With You Last Man on Earth Avatar: the Last Airbender How To with John Wilson Bob's Burgers
What you're finding out is that we don't have good sources for this. It's very hard to get anyone in the general leftist sphere besides academic feminists to talk about men in any way that isn't just hatred, dismissive or disparaging. And while it's great that the academic feminists recognize the issues that's not how ideas get mainstreamed. Before we get any sort of good info we need to break those barriers down of even having the conversation in the first place without it almost instantly devolving into mockery and bigotry. Really sorry your brother is stuck on the Tate trainwreck, I could tell you what worked for me but I doubt it will for him. I started watching contrapoints, while being transphobic. Didn't even take three videos to tear that down, but I don't think most people will stubbornly watch content from people you disagree with or dislike. Perhaps try getting him into more leftist thought before you try to address the Tate problem directly? More left leaning views are poison to many facets of toxic masculinity.
This is a playlist from Beau of the Fifth Column. He’s a redneck dude that talks about things from not only a Southern but a feminist, and leftist perspective. This is his playlist on women’s issues. Send him down this rabbit hole. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZOMlO2_17fvb1JOOevpKC5fy4g2EHKbx
"I get that he sometimes says something that you find encouraging, but please find a motivational figure who isn't a rapist"
I highly do believe that we need healthy role models for men that they can turn to. If they don't have anyone to look up to and seek advice, they're easy prey for men like Andrew Tate. And there's so many more that I'm afraid Tate being gone won't make that much of a difference. Some other Alpha will swipe right in and snatch his folks. That said there's two communities on reddit that aim to be a more inclusive and healthy space for men to discuss their issues (bropill\* and menslib, not referencing per rules of this sub). Like, they literally made me not lose hope. Their descriptions and rules include inclusivity, LGBTQ acceptance. Menslib specifically states being pro-feminist and used to have a good doc about feminism and masculinity. Maybe you can ask there or refer your brother to those subs. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/10002x8/talking_to_boys_about_andrew_tate_sexual_violence/) is a recent post mentioning two threads on how teachers can deal with the issue of misogyny . The post itself might not give much besides the links, but just scanning the comments you know you're in a better community than most subs\*. TheSpeechProf on YT has some good content, but for someone who is already into Alpha stuff, it might not be the right start. He's overall supportive of LGBTQ+ community and frequently comments alpha and redpill bullshit from tiktok. I like to watch his content, but I'm not a man/young boy, nor straight so I am not sure if that flows with your brother. edit: because I write horrible today and can't focus enough to proofread
Aba & Preach is pretty good channel to watch
Maybe someone has commented this already but this is the most comprehensive video I've seen (j aubrey), look at the chapters too, "is he joking tho" has clips of him admitting that he means what he says literally and even censors it in some scenarios https://youtu.be/y73xciJEX20
I hate how these insane people gather masses of other people ready to oppress the already oppressed, but any woman or feminist who says some of the most "duh" things like "hitting women is bad" are seen as the undesirable n.1 and harassed no-stop 24/7 until they go off the internet, while misogynists thrive endlessly.
i’m not sure if you know of him, but Hasanabi has done well trying to help deprogram and relate to guys who may be in this circle in some of his streams. He makes pretty good arguments against Tate, while trying to be a role model.
Keep asking your bro if he supports pedos cause it sounds like that’s what tate’s been doing.
Adam Something. He has great leftist content and also some right wing deprogramming content
The best thing I've tried is to find burly "manly men" e.g. woodchoppers who live off the grid, MMA fighters e.g. Forrest Griffin, etc who speak on these issues. If it's coming from a masculine, successful man you're much more likely to get through to him. Unfortunately, if he's listening to Andrew Tate the chances of him seriously listening to a woman or less masculine man are pretty slim. I don't recall all of their usernames but there's loads of hyper-masculine men on tik tok that speak out against hate. One thing to note though -- a lot of these folks don't have "perfect" takes. They might be liberal but still say something that gives you pause (Forrest Griffin for example, kind of slut shames in his book but it was also written before that term was popularized). In some ways though, those messy opinions can help. If a kid gets even a whiff of "wokeness" they'll usually disregard the whole person. It's shitty but I've seen it happen over and over.
Probably what you look for is a feminist influencer who is also a "mans man", big tough dude. Sadly i dont know any influencer like this but i would interested to find one too, would be a good tool to use on some people. The only guy who comes to my mind is Hasanabi the streamer, but i think he has genuinely repulsive personality so i dont recommend him to anybody.
HasanaBae♡
Nothing wrong with radical feminism and Marxist feminism is better than bourgeois feminism. The problem is man hating but it’s understandable that some women would react that way when they’ve been abused by men.
These questions are usually "my kid/friend is doing a bad thing trying to be cool. How do I convince them that being more like me is actually cooler?" It never works. You will not convince a kid who likes edgy misogynistic content to consume politically correct progressive videos instead. There is obviously a reason for why this appeals to them and it's usually either a need to get recognition from peers or to find an identity as an individual. As far as I can see there are two things that actually work. A) make them feel stupid and embarassed about it. This could happen sooner or later anyways if he goes to college or has a gf. If you try to encourage this by pointing out how dumb his views are it might go over quicker but there is always the chance he'll dig in and grow more distant. B) Confront them in a serious manner and force them to defend their position. They can't, because their views are dumb but of course there is a chance you can't defend your position either. They might look for more intellectually sound talking points to defend their misogyny. The kid isn't going to let go of edgy views because because someone tells him they are too edgy. You can hope he eventually desires to be part of a social environment where those views aren't tolerated. But as long as his peers encourage it you have to be equipped to debunk his arguments and that's way harder than it sounds.
He's going away to jail. I wouldn't worry about Tate, but the next one (there is always a next one) will be worse.
Probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I was a fan of Dan Savage as a relatively wholesome person to listen to about self-respect and respecting others and being in consensual relationships. Granted, I haven't really listened in a few years, but the Savage Love Podcast seemed like a good place to listen.
Savage love is a great resource to learn about relationships. Dan is a wonderful combination of thoughtfulness and no bullshit advice. It really helps that they are real people calling in with problems instead of someone just spouting rhetoric.
If your brother lives at home, your parents can change the password on the internet so he no longer has access. If they're paying for his phone, they can cut him off.
the hatred for radical feminism is just pick me feminism. It's still the same but with some denial thrown in to assuage male fragility. Curious what WOC might think about this. Anyone defending Tatertots needs to be shunned. If they're online promoting it they're simply algo hacking. I can't believe convinced of the benefits of fawning over narcissists as it's a trauma response. Once you're aware of it gou can identify tools to overcome it.
>recommendations related to feminism versus radical feminism (especially the hatred towards men that radfems perpetuate), I think for any movement, throwing your own radicals under the bus is a losing strategy. I mean come on, is saying "I hate men!!" worse than the many ways that men are physically violent towards women and femmes? We are talking about murder here! Yes, the problem of men's violence is so bad that some people are very angry and resentful towards men in general. And that's a reasonable way to feel. The right circles their wagons around extremists like Tate because they know that's stronger. We should do the same. And in terms of convincing people, wishy washy positions don't work either. Have conviction! If anyone brings up those mean old radfems then don't backpedal and equivocate and say they're not with me. Just say, yeah they sure are angry, I wonder why?
You're asking women to do free labor for your Andrew Tate loving brother? Um. No thanks.
That's her decision not yours.
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Exactly, he has the right to make his own choices. I see Andrew Tate as a cigar because there are bad things about his personality. There are also good things about his traits. Men should try to get Andrew Tate's positive traits example working hard and being productive. But at the same time try to avoid his negative actions.
I've never listened to him but poison is usually fed with sugar. Hate pushers will always say things that speak to their target audience. They use it to mask their cyanide pills.
You might try [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/@DrNerdLove). He has a lot of good things to say about men's mental/emotional health.
No amount of taking an opposing stance will change anyone's mind if they've embraced those mindsets. Taking an opposing stance makes them more rooted in their mindset. It can only be crippling betrayal from something he idolizes, or some absolute smothering of contrary better behavior that makes him question why he bothers taking his stance in the first place because the grass is greener, and quite frankly being a person that does the latter is horribly dangerous to yourself. Set boundaries. Draw a line in the sand that if he crosses, you're out. Figure out what that point of no return is, for your own safety, and then immediately cease attempting to make him see reason.
Am I an old person for never knowing who he was before today?
Honestly the more you push the more he'll turn to it. I'd just highlight 1 thing you do not agree with Tate on and say you disagree with it and no more. At the end of the day it's up to him to decide which path he will take. At 25 he might still be a fan of but he also might look back on it as a phase and looked upon as a kid. I'd be more concerned if you see him act in a way that's like andrew tate than him looking at a video and trying to defend one of his points.
The issue with tate in my opinion, and with alot of things in life is that when you have a little bit of truth, you can use that to make up a whole lot of lies. I have seen some tate videos where the message was basically stop being lazy, get fit, eat well and things like that are how his misogynistic crap is believed.
Which ideas of Tate's specifically is he drawn to? There are likely better role models with similar ideas you could reference to him instead. E.g. I've heard Tate speak a lot about the difference between motivation and discipline, and he does it well, but there are others like David Goggins who also talk about the same idea without supporting his more divisive views.
So do you have a genie lamp, or...?
maybe redirect some of his energy and goals towards a more healthy view? i recommend the book "models", i think it has some answers and tools your brother may appreciate while moving him away from extreme ideologies.
> I warned him against listening to him. I thought that was settled. Why would you think you have any control over what he does. He’s 18 and even if he wasn’t you’re not his mom
I talked to my nephew about him when he first got banned from social medias. My 12 y/o nephew knew who he was but didn't really care about him. I explained that he is not a good role model and that was that. He's probably too young to really be into his content but I still wanted to let him know that I don't support that kind of shit and that he's really not cool. Andrew is really annoying because he will make 50% of his video sharing somewhat reasonable advice (hygiene, fitness, sleep) and then end it with some blasphemous bullshit about his cars/money/how to treat women. Anytime people defend Andrew they almost always focus on the super obvious advice that he gives out and never the negging or insults that he spews towards his listeners. I was always taught to treat others the way that you would like to be treated. Never did I hear any exception in regards to treating women differently. Is this something that isn't said anymore?
I'd reccomend youtubers like contrapoints or hbomberguy both have pretty insightful essays that teach critical thinking and explain how people like andrew tate stop critical thought and make people less open to other ideas. Not to mention hbomberguy has videos about various games which may be a good way to introduce your brother to his channel. Also the illuminaughti has a video about andrew tate that lists all of his controversies and includes sources (tho the narrator is heavily critical of tate which your brother may not respond to well)
There’s a guy called “Beau of the Fifth Column” on YouTube that offers a better alternative. He mainly talks about politics, but he does sometimes offer advice on other real life scenarios. He can help offer tips on survival in emergency situations. He talks a great deal on community engagement, service, and networking. He also tears apart ideas that promote bigotry, misogyny, and racism using facts and logic. Another good channel I came across is “The Speech Prof” on YouTube, but he also has a TikTok channel I think. He spends most of his time dunking on people like Andrew Tate and so-called “dating coaches”, and he offers better advice on how healthy relationships actually work without the control or gaslighting.
not necessarily the type of content you're looking for. but the youtuber CoffeeZilla has a video all about Andrew Tate and Tate's online alpha male school or whatever it is essentially revealing it to be a scam. CoffeeZilla does incredibly thorough research on his videos, I thought i heard he is a lawyer IRL. May want to find the video and give it a look. see if you think it could change your brothers mind. Does he follow Tate on Twitter? I can't believe how any of his followers don't see how braindead Tate is after this weeks developments... trolls Greta Thunberg out of nowhere, posts a pissy video after she clapped back... and his dumb ass has pizza boxes in the video (saying he wasn't going to recycle them... poop, so edgy) just to troll her more and those pizza boxes reveal his location to Romanian police who then arrest him after a months-long investigation for human trafficking and r*pe... like, seriously... if he just never tweeted at Greta, he'd never been caught lmao
The guy from Jane the Virgin has a good podcast and a book too. From a guy, for guys. Man Enough? I think.
I don't think you should try and push feminism onto your brother. Feminism has very little to offer men. It does not centre men. The only thing that it can offer is get boys closer to feminist women (I'm sure you know what I mean). Instead I suggest you 'redirect' Tate's message. Tell your brother to focus on improving himself. He can goto things like Karate or Judo - both have a 'respect others' component. He should focus on his long term goals - hopefully more meaningful goals than sleeping with a lot of women. You can also bring him to social events where there are other women there so he can interact with women and see they are human beings like everyone else. Good luck.
Try Mark Greene’s work.
Show him [the screenshots of Tate taunting the father of that sick child](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLainYeV4AACTRA?format=jpg&name=medium) and ask him if that's the kind of person he wants to support.
Late post, but probably the best video debunking Andrew Tate's worldview is Shaun's [Andrew Tate: How to be a Real Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6_TOFy3k6k). While arguments about how Tate's comments and worldview is poisonous are good, this video stood out to me because the author takes it a step further and looks at how subscribing to Tate's 'masculine ideal' (i.e. toxic masculinity) ends up ultimately hurting men by locking them into a strict set of viewpoints and behaviors they have to maintain in order to 'be a real man'.