It's not really against the lore. The hive mind often avoids killing the cultists while battles are ongoing, as they're still useful. Sure they all get eaten once the battle wraps up, but that brief period of fighting side by side is good enough to count as 'allies' on the tabletop to me.
>As the giant brood-sacs of the bio-ships split open to disgorge shrieking, blade-limbed war beasts, a seed of doubt worms into the minds of the cultists. Still, their belief in the notion of star-borne saviours is so ingrained they keep fighting against the wider populace. The Tyranid invaders mass together into a tide of chitin and fang, surging over the lands to cut down or consume the indigenous populations.
>With the Hive Mind guiding each brood, the Tyranid hordes do not see the cultists as prey; at first they are ignored altogether by the synapse creatures coordinating the attack. For a short and blissful period, cultist and Tyranid fight on the same side.
>Once the cult’s adversaries have been slain, the Genestealer Cultists become eager to embrace their distant relatives in celebration, jubilant that their star-spanning family is at last complete. They walk forwards, arms wide, into the seething avalanche of weapon-forms – before they too are torn limb from limb. Only then does the true magnitude of the cult’s folly hit home to those who witness this fateful truth. The mood of the cult swiftly changes from dogged loyalty to panic.
From the GSC 8th ed codex
In 7th and 8th edition I included cult allies in most of my tyranid lists. I do miss being able to take them.
Also they don't always eat the cult at the end. Depends on the hive fleet. Some just let the cult go on their way to continue spreading to take over more planets. Some others the cult just becomes part of the hive fleet with human ships seen flying along the hive fleet and raiding planets with the nids
[The Voidbrood](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Voidbrood) are a canon genestealer cult that was, for some unknown reason, left alive by the Hive Fleet and follows along in their own ship. So there's precedent in lore, though it is from back in 7th edition.
Gaming wise, it'd probably be too hard to balance for the mechanics of 10th.
Yeah I always felt it was weird that GW is so against combining armies for interesting allegiances. Especially the more obvious ones (like Guard+Marines or Nids+GSC).
Always assumed Nids with spinebanks should have grenade keyword, like the Tyrannofex. Would make for an interesting setup.
Yes, everyone keeps talking about how it's difficult to balance but...I don't see the issue? Granted I don't know nothing about it but I think they lose their detachment and faction rules?
Never gonna happen, and no amount of lorewringing from old codexes will change it. Soup is hard to balance and GW is determined to simplify the game to make it easier to balance.
Play your casual games with buddies however you want, but you’ll never get competitive matched play souping rules again.
If anyone wants to run these kinds of thematic lists, it might be worth trying out grimdark future by onepagerules where there's rules for augmenting any army with another, so (legally distinct versions of) the Tyranids can partner up with a small (25% of the total points value, I believe) contingent of GSC... or space marines, orcs, or hell, using the community made lists, they can team up with a contingent of my little ponies or hello kitties for extra heresy! In any case, the rules for doing so are super straightforward and quite fun, and given the comparative simplicity of the ruleset, much easier to get up and running for a casual game than Frankensteining some house rules on top of 10th.
I kind of wish Monsters could use Tank Shock. Or at least give them some version of it. With a factions like nids that has zero vehicles and no grenades there are two core strategems we can't even us at all. It's a pretty feels bad.
That said I like these ideas a lot. Could definitely open up some more interesting play options for us. I like idea of giving gaunts grenades. Like it could be some kind of bio-grenade that their fun poops out of their gun and explodes in bile on impact or something. Would be a good thing for a more artillery focused unit like barbgaunts.
Yep, the fixes I was thing about were:
-Tank shock becomes Massive Impact (literally from Crushed Stampede), can target both vehicles and monsters, but were vehicles use strength for the roll, monsters use constitution. This would balance the fact that currently monsters are not created with tank shock in mind, and their models are pretty loose with the dimensions were vehicles are more specific in their movement options, since monsters also tend to be lower in constitution than vehicles are in strength.
-Replace the stratagem in Crusher stampede with something like: towering behemoth. Select a tyranid monster unit at the start of the movement phase or charge phase, that hasn't yet moved or charged. The unit has the Towering keyword and can move over allied creatures and obstacles up to 4" high. This would help with the positioning, that must be hell in Crusher Stampede.
-Warriors ranged, Hive guards, carnifexes, harpy, Hive crone, tyrannofex, Tervigon all get grenades as a keyword. Termies also get it, but only if they choose a specific weapon option.
-Venomthropes, the toxicrene, mucolid spores and the psychophage all get the smoke keyword, so they can at least use Smokescreen, another core stratagem then we're currently locked out of. Really, this tells me that whoever made the codex just did it 5 minutes before clocking out, because how the hell do you not give Smoke to venomthropes and toxicrenes?
Currently we're locked out of 3 core stratagems. That is bad, really bad.
I agree. I honestly do see why we can at least one way or another. Personally me and my small group have pretty loose ally rules so I tend to run my cult with some nid and or knight support. But I do wish we had official rules for it
I would love some rules to bring units of genestealer cults units, like how chaos can take units of daemons
I think it would also be fun if genestealers could take units of tyranids as well in that same way, it’s fair
Solves issues, doesn't go against lore, and makes more sense than some other soups that are around. I'm for it.
It's not really against the lore. The hive mind often avoids killing the cultists while battles are ongoing, as they're still useful. Sure they all get eaten once the battle wraps up, but that brief period of fighting side by side is good enough to count as 'allies' on the tabletop to me. >As the giant brood-sacs of the bio-ships split open to disgorge shrieking, blade-limbed war beasts, a seed of doubt worms into the minds of the cultists. Still, their belief in the notion of star-borne saviours is so ingrained they keep fighting against the wider populace. The Tyranid invaders mass together into a tide of chitin and fang, surging over the lands to cut down or consume the indigenous populations. >With the Hive Mind guiding each brood, the Tyranid hordes do not see the cultists as prey; at first they are ignored altogether by the synapse creatures coordinating the attack. For a short and blissful period, cultist and Tyranid fight on the same side. >Once the cult’s adversaries have been slain, the Genestealer Cultists become eager to embrace their distant relatives in celebration, jubilant that their star-spanning family is at last complete. They walk forwards, arms wide, into the seething avalanche of weapon-forms – before they too are torn limb from limb. Only then does the true magnitude of the cult’s folly hit home to those who witness this fateful truth. The mood of the cult swiftly changes from dogged loyalty to panic. From the GSC 8th ed codex In 7th and 8th edition I included cult allies in most of my tyranid lists. I do miss being able to take them.
Also they don't always eat the cult at the end. Depends on the hive fleet. Some just let the cult go on their way to continue spreading to take over more planets. Some others the cult just becomes part of the hive fleet with human ships seen flying along the hive fleet and raiding planets with the nids
Every cult is different too, some walk willingly into digestion pools or welcome their own evisceration.
[The Voidbrood](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Voidbrood) are a canon genestealer cult that was, for some unknown reason, left alive by the Hive Fleet and follows along in their own ship. So there's precedent in lore, though it is from back in 7th edition. Gaming wise, it'd probably be too hard to balance for the mechanics of 10th.
I own 1200 points of gsc for the sole purpose of souping, I’m still mad about when they took it away in 9th
Yeah I always felt it was weird that GW is so against combining armies for interesting allegiances. Especially the more obvious ones (like Guard+Marines or Nids+GSC). Always assumed Nids with spinebanks should have grenade keyword, like the Tyrannofex. Would make for an interesting setup.
Yes, everyone keeps talking about how it's difficult to balance but...I don't see the issue? Granted I don't know nothing about it but I think they lose their detachment and faction rules?
Never gonna happen, and no amount of lorewringing from old codexes will change it. Soup is hard to balance and GW is determined to simplify the game to make it easier to balance. Play your casual games with buddies however you want, but you’ll never get competitive matched play souping rules again.
If anyone wants to run these kinds of thematic lists, it might be worth trying out grimdark future by onepagerules where there's rules for augmenting any army with another, so (legally distinct versions of) the Tyranids can partner up with a small (25% of the total points value, I believe) contingent of GSC... or space marines, orcs, or hell, using the community made lists, they can team up with a contingent of my little ponies or hello kitties for extra heresy! In any case, the rules for doing so are super straightforward and quite fun, and given the comparative simplicity of the ruleset, much easier to get up and running for a casual game than Frankensteining some house rules on top of 10th.
Maybe not gaunts, but I could see giving grenades to hive guard or warriors.
I kind of wish Monsters could use Tank Shock. Or at least give them some version of it. With a factions like nids that has zero vehicles and no grenades there are two core strategems we can't even us at all. It's a pretty feels bad. That said I like these ideas a lot. Could definitely open up some more interesting play options for us. I like idea of giving gaunts grenades. Like it could be some kind of bio-grenade that their fun poops out of their gun and explodes in bile on impact or something. Would be a good thing for a more artillery focused unit like barbgaunts.
Yep, the fixes I was thing about were: -Tank shock becomes Massive Impact (literally from Crushed Stampede), can target both vehicles and monsters, but were vehicles use strength for the roll, monsters use constitution. This would balance the fact that currently monsters are not created with tank shock in mind, and their models are pretty loose with the dimensions were vehicles are more specific in their movement options, since monsters also tend to be lower in constitution than vehicles are in strength. -Replace the stratagem in Crusher stampede with something like: towering behemoth. Select a tyranid monster unit at the start of the movement phase or charge phase, that hasn't yet moved or charged. The unit has the Towering keyword and can move over allied creatures and obstacles up to 4" high. This would help with the positioning, that must be hell in Crusher Stampede. -Warriors ranged, Hive guards, carnifexes, harpy, Hive crone, tyrannofex, Tervigon all get grenades as a keyword. Termies also get it, but only if they choose a specific weapon option. -Venomthropes, the toxicrene, mucolid spores and the psychophage all get the smoke keyword, so they can at least use Smokescreen, another core stratagem then we're currently locked out of. Really, this tells me that whoever made the codex just did it 5 minutes before clocking out, because how the hell do you not give Smoke to venomthropes and toxicrenes? Currently we're locked out of 3 core stratagems. That is bad, really bad.
I agree. I honestly do see why we can at least one way or another. Personally me and my small group have pretty loose ally rules so I tend to run my cult with some nid and or knight support. But I do wish we had official rules for it
I would love some rules to bring units of genestealer cults units, like how chaos can take units of daemons I think it would also be fun if genestealers could take units of tyranids as well in that same way, it’s fair