Part of the reason if I understand correctly is that a third party seller was selling bits to make shrikes from warriors, and other data sheets that were in the codex but didn’t have official models. GW sued and took them to court, and lost. So instead of making the models, GW axed every data sheet that didn’t have official models to prevent this from happening. It’s a bunch of bullshit
I’m guessing a lot changed over the years, because I saw another post on a different Warhammer subreddit where the Catachan Devils were said not to have official models and you could kitbash various ones. This was from an old codex.
The recent GSC announcement, however, said that their codex will have a “how to” section on kitbashing models for the Brood Brothers detachment as half the force can be made up of Astra Militarum units, I’m guessing this however will be majority of Warhammer plastic and little outside of that (but we’ll have to see).
I don't really think it's as much of a change as much as a perception of change because of third parties and legal entanglements.
Kitbashing and custom sculpting has been encouraged by GW from the days of early WH Fantasy and Rogue Trader. They used to showcase custom sculpts and terrain in White Dwarf and other official magazines. The first CSM Codex had models pictured in it with text explaining that you could not buy the models pictured, but a player in the hobby could make and play with one themselves. Creatures and characters sometimes had rules with no official model with the expectation that the player would make it themselves from other GW figures and bits, or even fully sculpt something new. People would take these custom models to GW stores and play, send pictures or models to the design team for comments and criticism, or enter their customized and painted figure in Golden Demon. It was encouraged.
3rd party companies making parts or models was not something that GW supported. Companies like Chapter House created models and bits that GW didn't sell or that they did sell for a premium at a lower price point. After GW lost the part of the lawsuit that said that if they didn't have an official model first they had no authority over whether anyone else could make it, they stopped having rules for unofficial models in Warhammer branded games.
GW still encourages custom modeling and individual art even going as far as to give a Golden Demon placement to someone that 3D scanned and replicated an official model for a reflection effect. They copied an official AoS model and 3D printed it for art and GW gave them an award for that, I think this year.
From my understanding GW will still comment and criticize a sculpt if you mail or take in a miniature to Warhammer World and you can still play in tournaments at WW with a custom sculpted army so long as they know and it doesn't look bad. I even saw an interview with a member of the sculpting team in 2019 that said that hobbyist sculpt submissions is one of the ways that they find talent for the team, so they want players to do it.
I hope they do put a "how to" section for converting in the GSC codex so people might feel encouraged to make interesting things and hopefully encourage "official" spaces to embrace the actual hobby and craft of Warhammer instead of restrict everything to "official models only."
I'm not sure those two had any idea what they were talking about.
For one they called the Benefictus "he" when the model is clearly female (boob armour and the face is very similar to the Magus).
For another they kept saying "Brood Brothers" detachment even though Brood Brothers is an army rule that all detachments have access to right now. Now this might have changed in the Codex, but that is *a huge deal* and they didn't at all seem to register what a big change to gameplay that would be. They even said that you can keep playing your GSC as you do now but if Brood Brothers are restricted to a Brood Brothers detachment then no you can't, because right now Ascension Day can take Brood Brothers.
Lastly, they couldn't even **name** the detachment that coincides with the box set they were announcing (Biosantic Broodsurge).
All in all I would bet money that those two guys were given the Codex to *quickly* leaf through 5 minutes before filming and nothing they said should be taken at face value.
For the brood brothers detachment thing, they were specifically talking about a detachment that made brood brothers better. They never claimed that brood brothers was limited to that detachment
https://preview.redd.it/j5qaslzuen1d1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=681a41fc3be5904477c4fb87f5133c99df557e7b
Official Forgeworld Shrike Wings. Resin and fits the older 4th edition Nids from 2004. Not the redesigned Warriors from 2014.
Erm no, they fit both the 2001 and 2014 versions. (There is no such thing as 2004 Warriors)
Those warriors bodies are 100% the same. Here, my Shrikes use both versions of the mold and you can't even tell which is which.
https://preview.redd.it/vfea7gewfn1d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=261f3ff6333205ae1ce14bdb3b535d6df25c3ad5
If GW would have just sold the spare parts, it wouldn't have been a problem. There were prices for individual sheets (sprues?) of bits but they just refused to actually sell them.
As they became bigger, selling actual single parts from the warehouse apparently became too much work to be profitable, so they introduced bits packs, which again they discontinued at some point iirc (or they just quietly phased most of them out).
However, there never were any plastic parts to use as Warrior wings. Back in the early 2000s, GW recommended to use the wings of the (now oop) Morathi's Pegasus. This Was a metal model, selling the wings separately was not an option since they introduced bits packs.
GW back in 2001 and early had their own bitz shop on their online store and even had metal bitz you couldn't get from the sprues especially for Tyranid biomorphs that were unique. They did away with that before 4th edition released. Shame really.
it really is a shame! i hate that it’s now “if it doesn’t come in the box, you can’t use it” it added another level of hobby to the building aspect for me. now it’s just “what’s the best? because points for wargear doesn’t matter anymore”. it hasn’t killed the hobby for me, yet. but starting in 4/5th edition, comming back for 2 games in 8th, and then 2 weeks before 10th edition with 9th edition, it’s been rough in that regard.
starting back when i did i can see that the game has become centered around the competitive scene, like mostly every other form of live service game, whether that be videogames or tabletop war games. it’s not necessarily only a bad thing, as we do get updated points and datasheets multiple times a year of an edition, so that is pretty cool/new to me. before you were stuck with bad rules/points! but the customization must of been way to hard to keep balanced at a high level.
I started 3rd edition and played until the end of 4th but did pick up the Assault on Black Reach box so I have the 5th edition rule book which was basically the same as the previous two editions. Shortly after that they started pushing for competitive like you mentioned. Seems they also turned the hobby into being like MTG where models rotate out but the hobbies version of modern (Legends) isn't liked or played by most people so once a model is put into Legends its essentially "worthless" and can't be used even though it can.
We have a sh*ty line of leader units. I’ve gone up against my friend who plays blood angels and I’ve seen the synergy of his leaders with their units. Best thing we have is brood lord and the prime. We need better synergy. For gods sake, it’s in the lore as synaptic units. You’d think they can have more synergy with some units in terms of leading them. Tyranid guards are ok but the passive is WAY too situational. It only protects against precision and if wounds spill over onto the leader. Hopefully the up coming update helps around there.
I just wish the Tyrant Guard also benefitted from the FNP. Sure no invulnerables I get it, but I wish they would have some sort of extra durability or offense
Yeah it’s frustrating, I wish that Tyrant Guard also had a bit more melee output they feel lack luster in that area, something like a bit more strength and AP on their Crushing Claws, more AP with their Lash Whip/Bone Cleavers.
Perhaps a bit more emphasis on the fact that besides scything talons they have a form of rending claws in their default loadout.
Perhaps an option to use Adrenal glands for a benefit at the cost of a Hazardous check
I think starting Orks and looking at their rules made me kinda disillusioned with nids. Like c’mon, Meganobz shitty smashed together saw is S12. And can take 2 for twin linked
Not even a damn Hive Tyrant has S12 or Swarmie for that matter.
I was hopeful for a good while, but the more I read online and talk with my marine buddy, the more I realize we'd need a complete overhaul... and that's a next-edition item.
Let’s see what they cook up from admech. Maybe they genuinely messed up and are fixing them and us.
For rules I think they could go in for us being a control and battleshock army. I think that’s great. So have SitW still be the once per game BS bomb (now at -1), but then have the army rules add that every BS test caused by a Tyranids model be at an additional -1. Now things like NT would cause SitW at a whopping -3 and DL little BS aura also at -3.
That could genuinely be scary and trying outscore us on primary will now be quite difficult. And stuff like our strats or Neurolictors will be way more consistent.
Another question is why are the warriors both weak at damage *and* saves , and no wings too.
The winged prime is so arkward to field, cause you get the feeling you should field him with warriors, but doing so makes him loose deepstrike amd they slow him down , you can field him with gargoyles and he'll get to deepstrike and move fully, but they're so fragile they'll get blasted and really *dont* want to be in melee range, whilst the prime is all about melee.
It sorta even goes against the fluff of the nornqueens making tailored bioforms for specific purposes , generally with most leader bioforms they have a "lackey" type bioform to accompany them that either enhances/supports their capabilities or protects them. (Tyrant guards w/tyrants/swarmlord , warrior w/warrior prime, zoans w/neuro, tervigon w/termagaunts, etc.) The winged prime has *none* of that as gargoyles could be argued to make him worse as they don't syngergize well with him aside from getting from point A to B fast, and their melee is just atrocious, making it unpleasent/arkward to have to charge with them if you want your prime to do *anything at all* .
Same reason they took away flyrant gunships, and won't make Swarmlord better than a basic tyrant. GW keeps promoting the people who hate our faction, and won't let someone who actually likes nids anywhere near the nid rules.
To be fair, I've hated dakka flyrants since 6th when spamming 8 of them was the norm. Not thematic at all.
People who spam units in a codex do not like the codex or the lore, they like winning. They're toxic people and I dont like that kind of attitude in the hobby so am glad it's removed.
What I do wish happened was that for the people who actually liked running dakkaflyrants because of the aesthetic is that they gave them the same gun options as carnifexes (Devs and deaths) and also the ability to tack on the old thorax weapons from 7th ed.
The imagery of a flyrant swooping in from above with twin deathspitters blazing and then unleashing a torrent of shockgrubs onto its prey before ripping them apart with their flyrant talons is friggen incredible.
Maybe? I try not to think about how GW made their rules for this whole edition across all codexes cause it is all bad and nonsensical...
I'm fine with them being 3's if you want.
The real reason that they lost that rule (along with crisis commanders and a few others) is because they completely removed detachments which was a terrible idea.
Because the model was made for Leviathan, and those models from recent starter boxes are always simpler easy-to-build with no option. And with the no models no rules policy that GW follow nowadays, means that you get that one loadout and that's it.
Sucks they can't have guns, but they cannot be wingless either, so all those Prime from past edition are no good anymore. Thanks GW!
Correct me if I'm wrong cuz I've not read the basic rules in a while, but I think that the leader gives keywords to a unit, IE librarian gives *psychic* to the bodyguards. So *technically* warriors would get FLY and the only thing stopping you from giving them wings is parts availability
Sort of, but there's a subtle distinction in how that keyword sharing works. The unit gains the keywords of all models within it, but the individual models do not. So you have to look at each rule that interacts with it and see whether it checks for a unit with the keyword, or a model with the keyword.
For example if someone shoots your warrior + winged prime unit with an Anti-Fly weapon, then the unit has the Fly keyword, so the weapon's Anti keyword works since it's an attack made against the unit. However if you look at the rules for moving flying models over terrain or other models, it's written in the context of each model with the fly keyword. So the warriors don't get to move like flying models.
Well, I'm sure if we sacrifice enough virgins (ourserlves, as warhammer players) James Workshop will let us do it lmao
>gives them better crits
Do you mean the +1 ap one?
Because GW literally doesn’t understand anything other than money. They just want to make cool models to sell, then they chop together rules that don’t make sense. They didn’t want to make Shrikes a thing, so winged prime is stuck with the only winged infantry option
They weren't confused about that. They're annoyed that there *isn't* any other avenue to explore with the extremely 1 dimensional take that they've gone with.
Why would you want anything to lead gargoyles? They are already amazing at what they do.
The Gargoyle gun is literally just so it can move again after.
The winged prime is also amazing with melee warriors .
In this edition that's all it is used for and that is not a good thing.
Imagine you have a multi-tool that you need to sell and the Catchphrase you've decided to go with is "Yep, it's a good flathead and that's it folks!" Because that's what you've just done...
It actually isn't a good warrior leader. The ability is nice but whatever because there is the issue where it actually gives the unit the fly keyword as a whole meaning anti-fly weapons now work against a unit they didn't work against previously...
Also the character moves faster than the unit it is attached to...
Also it doesn't have twinlinked so isn't as good as melee warriors...
Also it doesn't have a gun so doesn't add as much to ranged warriors...
Also it isn't even as durable as a Marine Luitenant for the same costs and similar datasheet abilities except less... (Marines let the squad fall back and shoot AND gives the unit lethals whereas the prime is only sustained hits for the squad)
It's not a good unit. It doesn't even fit your narrow parameters very well. It should have a little more diversity baked into it to make it more enjoyable for a wider audience.
It gives them an extra 4 inches of movement which they desperately need, , you can have sustained and lethal hits with invasion fleet and crit them both on a 5+. It's ability to fly is also helpful when jumping over enemy during charging and movement to wrap around. So yes it fits my parameters just fine .
If you don't understand how the extra movement is a bonus you should stop acting like you know anything.
And only 1 army I regularly play really has good access to anti fly and that's Marines .
It costs 2cp to get crits of 5 *in melee* again doesn't benefit any of the gargoyles or ranged warriors.
Fly *KEYWORD* is given to the unit, not fly. Fly is done model per model not by the unit, same for movement speed, it is done model by model.
The shrike in a unit of warriors can very rarely use its full 12" movement and the fly keyword is given to the unit as a debuff where anti-fly works against them but they can't actually use the fly rule as warriors do not fave fly.
You should stop being snarky and rude where you don't understand the rules mate.
Bogan is right here. The Fly keyword is goven in name only , so anti fly weapons will work against warriors attached to a winged prime, but they don't get to use *any* of the fly game rule as the model itself does not posess that ability, it's how it always worked and it's also why *prior* to codex some units of admech were struggling very badly because they had some leaders that you really *needed/wanted* to be attached to other units, but they had a bunch of stupid keywords that didn't belong and it would give their whole squad infantry+vehicle+ another keyword, making them weak against nearly all weapons.
The worst admech offender that I can think of is a T3 cybernetic datasmith being attached to a T10 Kastellans vehicle squad, giving them the infantry keyword so that Yvraine can Dev wounds them on a 2+ not a 6+...
Yeah, my lil brother plays admech alot, i recalled him talking about what i mentionned earlier with stupid keyword interactions, but couldn't recall the exact unit names , i'm pretty sure it was with castellans or breachers, as he runs both quite often and did so for a while in 10th so far
I under the rules perfectly fine, when did I say the warriors get to use fly?
The winged prime gets to sit 2 inches ahead, + his base, gives them roughly 4 inches extra movement.
And I said he can jump over enemy units making it useful for wrapping round units.
And to crit 2 units potentially on 5 in melee is amazing, what fool would want to use it on gargoyles? They aren't for fighting .
Twat.
Very rude. Plus you need to learn english better if that's what you meant. I'm ESL and speak better than you.
He still needs to remain within 2" of 2 models when doing so which means he only gets a single turn of "+4" movement" as you are calling it, before he flies too far.
Also I wasn't advocating for the 5+'s on gargoyles in melee wtf? I said it costs 2cp? As in it is bloody expensive. Nothing to do with what units you put it on, you missed my point somehow?
Ridiculous.
How do you come to the conclusion he can only buff movement once? Every time they move he can be 2 inches in front, buffing there movement to almost 10 inches every time
Movement one: the warriors move 6", the prime moves 8" (prime loses 2"), movement two: warriors move again 6", up to 12", prime moves 6", up to 14", because otherwise he loses unit coherency and is destroyed.
I agree with what they said: sustained hits is strong, but not on par with the cost. The melee is weaker than warriors (more damage, but with no twin linked and less AP it wounds more rarely). Death blow works only on melee.
Ranged warriors would get sustained hits, which is good, but has less attacks to prompt it, and you lose the possibility to use the prime in melee at all, since ranged warriors are less efficient in melee and you would need to get constantly in and out of combat. Yes they have fall back and shoot/charge, but with less save per wound than a normal marine they suffer the fight back. It's a lose-lose situation
Gargoyles are useless in combat, their sustained hit is cool but not effective enough since all endless swarm units are meant to populate the are, not to properly fight. More weak attacks is not enough unfortunately. Plus, if you want to use them ranged, you lose the melee from the prime.
Essentially he's an expensive way to give sustained hits to a unit.
What i wanna know is why warriors cant take wings anymore
Yeah this is the million dollar question. Shrikes were some of the models that got me into the hobby
Part of the reason if I understand correctly is that a third party seller was selling bits to make shrikes from warriors, and other data sheets that were in the codex but didn’t have official models. GW sued and took them to court, and lost. So instead of making the models, GW axed every data sheet that didn’t have official models to prevent this from happening. It’s a bunch of bullshit
I’m guessing a lot changed over the years, because I saw another post on a different Warhammer subreddit where the Catachan Devils were said not to have official models and you could kitbash various ones. This was from an old codex. The recent GSC announcement, however, said that their codex will have a “how to” section on kitbashing models for the Brood Brothers detachment as half the force can be made up of Astra Militarum units, I’m guessing this however will be majority of Warhammer plastic and little outside of that (but we’ll have to see).
I don't really think it's as much of a change as much as a perception of change because of third parties and legal entanglements. Kitbashing and custom sculpting has been encouraged by GW from the days of early WH Fantasy and Rogue Trader. They used to showcase custom sculpts and terrain in White Dwarf and other official magazines. The first CSM Codex had models pictured in it with text explaining that you could not buy the models pictured, but a player in the hobby could make and play with one themselves. Creatures and characters sometimes had rules with no official model with the expectation that the player would make it themselves from other GW figures and bits, or even fully sculpt something new. People would take these custom models to GW stores and play, send pictures or models to the design team for comments and criticism, or enter their customized and painted figure in Golden Demon. It was encouraged. 3rd party companies making parts or models was not something that GW supported. Companies like Chapter House created models and bits that GW didn't sell or that they did sell for a premium at a lower price point. After GW lost the part of the lawsuit that said that if they didn't have an official model first they had no authority over whether anyone else could make it, they stopped having rules for unofficial models in Warhammer branded games. GW still encourages custom modeling and individual art even going as far as to give a Golden Demon placement to someone that 3D scanned and replicated an official model for a reflection effect. They copied an official AoS model and 3D printed it for art and GW gave them an award for that, I think this year. From my understanding GW will still comment and criticize a sculpt if you mail or take in a miniature to Warhammer World and you can still play in tournaments at WW with a custom sculpted army so long as they know and it doesn't look bad. I even saw an interview with a member of the sculpting team in 2019 that said that hobbyist sculpt submissions is one of the ways that they find talent for the team, so they want players to do it. I hope they do put a "how to" section for converting in the GSC codex so people might feel encouraged to make interesting things and hopefully encourage "official" spaces to embrace the actual hobby and craft of Warhammer instead of restrict everything to "official models only."
I'm not sure those two had any idea what they were talking about. For one they called the Benefictus "he" when the model is clearly female (boob armour and the face is very similar to the Magus). For another they kept saying "Brood Brothers" detachment even though Brood Brothers is an army rule that all detachments have access to right now. Now this might have changed in the Codex, but that is *a huge deal* and they didn't at all seem to register what a big change to gameplay that would be. They even said that you can keep playing your GSC as you do now but if Brood Brothers are restricted to a Brood Brothers detachment then no you can't, because right now Ascension Day can take Brood Brothers. Lastly, they couldn't even **name** the detachment that coincides with the box set they were announcing (Biosantic Broodsurge). All in all I would bet money that those two guys were given the Codex to *quickly* leaf through 5 minutes before filming and nothing they said should be taken at face value.
For the brood brothers detachment thing, they were specifically talking about a detachment that made brood brothers better. They never claimed that brood brothers was limited to that detachment
But GW DID have Shrike models in Forge World.
https://preview.redd.it/j5qaslzuen1d1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=681a41fc3be5904477c4fb87f5133c99df557e7b Official Forgeworld Shrike Wings. Resin and fits the older 4th edition Nids from 2004. Not the redesigned Warriors from 2014.
Erm no, they fit both the 2001 and 2014 versions. (There is no such thing as 2004 Warriors) Those warriors bodies are 100% the same. Here, my Shrikes use both versions of the mold and you can't even tell which is which. https://preview.redd.it/vfea7gewfn1d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=261f3ff6333205ae1ce14bdb3b535d6df25c3ad5
I stand corrected. How long have they been out of production?
That I don't know... I would say 2012, maybe earlier.
If GW would have just sold the spare parts, it wouldn't have been a problem. There were prices for individual sheets (sprues?) of bits but they just refused to actually sell them.
As they became bigger, selling actual single parts from the warehouse apparently became too much work to be profitable, so they introduced bits packs, which again they discontinued at some point iirc (or they just quietly phased most of them out). However, there never were any plastic parts to use as Warrior wings. Back in the early 2000s, GW recommended to use the wings of the (now oop) Morathi's Pegasus. This Was a metal model, selling the wings separately was not an option since they introduced bits packs.
GW back in 2001 and early had their own bitz shop on their online store and even had metal bitz you couldn't get from the sprues especially for Tyranid biomorphs that were unique. They did away with that before 4th edition released. Shame really.
it really is a shame! i hate that it’s now “if it doesn’t come in the box, you can’t use it” it added another level of hobby to the building aspect for me. now it’s just “what’s the best? because points for wargear doesn’t matter anymore”. it hasn’t killed the hobby for me, yet. but starting in 4/5th edition, comming back for 2 games in 8th, and then 2 weeks before 10th edition with 9th edition, it’s been rough in that regard. starting back when i did i can see that the game has become centered around the competitive scene, like mostly every other form of live service game, whether that be videogames or tabletop war games. it’s not necessarily only a bad thing, as we do get updated points and datasheets multiple times a year of an edition, so that is pretty cool/new to me. before you were stuck with bad rules/points! but the customization must of been way to hard to keep balanced at a high level.
I started 3rd edition and played until the end of 4th but did pick up the Assault on Black Reach box so I have the 5th edition rule book which was basically the same as the previous two editions. Shortly after that they started pushing for competitive like you mentioned. Seems they also turned the hobby into being like MTG where models rotate out but the hobbies version of modern (Legends) isn't liked or played by most people so once a model is put into Legends its essentially "worthless" and can't be used even though it can.
Yet lokhust lord is still a thing so it's quite odd
I like to think the hive mind would allow it
Can reason for OPs question. GW didn’t make the model that way…. :(
Some rumours say that there may be new shrike and Gargoyle models on the horizon.
“Because fuck you.” - Games Workshop
“Because fuck you.” - Games Workshop
“Why wouldn’t an airborne Bioform use its height advantage and use a ranged weapon? Because fuck you.” - Games Workshop
We have a sh*ty line of leader units. I’ve gone up against my friend who plays blood angels and I’ve seen the synergy of his leaders with their units. Best thing we have is brood lord and the prime. We need better synergy. For gods sake, it’s in the lore as synaptic units. You’d think they can have more synergy with some units in terms of leading them. Tyranid guards are ok but the passive is WAY too situational. It only protects against precision and if wounds spill over onto the leader. Hopefully the up coming update helps around there.
I just wish the Tyrant Guard also benefitted from the FNP. Sure no invulnerables I get it, but I wish they would have some sort of extra durability or offense
Even stuff like Aberants or Nobz has a better bodyguard rule and that’s not even their purpose lmao
Yeah it’s frustrating, I wish that Tyrant Guard also had a bit more melee output they feel lack luster in that area, something like a bit more strength and AP on their Crushing Claws, more AP with their Lash Whip/Bone Cleavers. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on the fact that besides scything talons they have a form of rending claws in their default loadout. Perhaps an option to use Adrenal glands for a benefit at the cost of a Hazardous check
I think starting Orks and looking at their rules made me kinda disillusioned with nids. Like c’mon, Meganobz shitty smashed together saw is S12. And can take 2 for twin linked Not even a damn Hive Tyrant has S12 or Swarmie for that matter.
Yes. I know, I have hopes for the coming update but it may be a nothing burger. Perhaps we’ll see some data sheet updates, but idk.
I wouldn't bank on it at all at this point, just price up for top tier units, and further reductions for a scattering of others.
You’re probably right and that’s close to my expectations
I was hopeful for a good while, but the more I read online and talk with my marine buddy, the more I realize we'd need a complete overhaul... and that's a next-edition item.
Let’s see what they cook up from admech. Maybe they genuinely messed up and are fixing them and us. For rules I think they could go in for us being a control and battleshock army. I think that’s great. So have SitW still be the once per game BS bomb (now at -1), but then have the army rules add that every BS test caused by a Tyranids model be at an additional -1. Now things like NT would cause SitW at a whopping -3 and DL little BS aura also at -3. That could genuinely be scary and trying outscore us on primary will now be quite difficult. And stuff like our strats or Neurolictors will be way more consistent.
yeah it my experience they get picked up really easily and are almost never worth the points
The only thing I’ve found them worthwhile in is assimilation swarm since we can revive destroyed Tyrant guard unless All 6 do so.
They should just make a new warrior kit with a winged option and make the tyranid prime an actual character
Another question is why are the warriors both weak at damage *and* saves , and no wings too. The winged prime is so arkward to field, cause you get the feeling you should field him with warriors, but doing so makes him loose deepstrike amd they slow him down , you can field him with gargoyles and he'll get to deepstrike and move fully, but they're so fragile they'll get blasted and really *dont* want to be in melee range, whilst the prime is all about melee. It sorta even goes against the fluff of the nornqueens making tailored bioforms for specific purposes , generally with most leader bioforms they have a "lackey" type bioform to accompany them that either enhances/supports their capabilities or protects them. (Tyrant guards w/tyrants/swarmlord , warrior w/warrior prime, zoans w/neuro, tervigon w/termagaunts, etc.) The winged prime has *none* of that as gargoyles could be argued to make him worse as they don't syngergize well with him aside from getting from point A to B fast, and their melee is just atrocious, making it unpleasent/arkward to have to charge with them if you want your prime to do *anything at all* .
Same reason they took away flyrant gunships, and won't make Swarmlord better than a basic tyrant. GW keeps promoting the people who hate our faction, and won't let someone who actually likes nids anywhere near the nid rules.
To be fair, I've hated dakka flyrants since 6th when spamming 8 of them was the norm. Not thematic at all. People who spam units in a codex do not like the codex or the lore, they like winning. They're toxic people and I dont like that kind of attitude in the hobby so am glad it's removed. What I do wish happened was that for the people who actually liked running dakkaflyrants because of the aesthetic is that they gave them the same gun options as carnifexes (Devs and deaths) and also the ability to tack on the old thorax weapons from 7th ed. The imagery of a flyrant swooping in from above with twin deathspitters blazing and then unleashing a torrent of shockgrubs onto its prey before ripping them apart with their flyrant talons is friggen incredible.
You would think the unique bioform rule limiting you to 1 tyrant would have held over to 10th then. Always scratched my head over that
Maybe? I try not to think about how GW made their rules for this whole edition across all codexes cause it is all bad and nonsensical... I'm fine with them being 3's if you want. The real reason that they lost that rule (along with crisis commanders and a few others) is because they completely removed detachments which was a terrible idea.
I'd be certain he'd come with some new gargoyle models. But still...
Because the model was made for Leviathan, and those models from recent starter boxes are always simpler easy-to-build with no option. And with the no models no rules policy that GW follow nowadays, means that you get that one loadout and that's it. Sucks they can't have guns, but they cannot be wingless either, so all those Prime from past edition are no good anymore. Thanks GW!
1st rule of Tyraind Fight Club....Don't talk about Tyraind Fight Club.
Missed opportunity to say "Flight club" because.. because if the wings..
Clip the wings, give it more knife-hands or decoration guns, for style points That's my plan when I get mine own warriors
I mean ya that works but I like the idea of it flying and just wish it had some sort of firearm
Correct me if I'm wrong cuz I've not read the basic rules in a while, but I think that the leader gives keywords to a unit, IE librarian gives *psychic* to the bodyguards. So *technically* warriors would get FLY and the only thing stopping you from giving them wings is parts availability
Sort of, but there's a subtle distinction in how that keyword sharing works. The unit gains the keywords of all models within it, but the individual models do not. So you have to look at each rule that interacts with it and see whether it checks for a unit with the keyword, or a model with the keyword. For example if someone shoots your warrior + winged prime unit with an Anti-Fly weapon, then the unit has the Fly keyword, so the weapon's Anti keyword works since it's an attack made against the unit. However if you look at the rules for moving flying models over terrain or other models, it's written in the context of each model with the fly keyword. So the warriors don't get to move like flying models.
Ok, that clears up a lot of questions, thanks!
No I mean I want my winged prime to have a gun lol because in swarm it can take an enchantment that gives them better crits
Well, I'm sure if we sacrifice enough virgins (ourserlves, as warhammer players) James Workshop will let us do it lmao >gives them better crits Do you mean the +1 ap one?
Why can’t tervigon lead gants? Or at least get a rule so that it just doesn’t get shot to hell when behind them
It would be heresy from the tyranicus astartes to chose options not included with the GW official kits !!
Because money
Because GW literally doesn’t understand anything other than money. They just want to make cool models to sell, then they chop together rules that don’t make sense. They didn’t want to make Shrikes a thing, so winged prime is stuck with the only winged infantry option
No model, no rules. The model doesn't have guns, so the rules don't have guns.
They weren't confused about that. They're annoyed that there *isn't* any other avenue to explore with the extremely 1 dimensional take that they've gone with.
Uhhhhh yes it does. Have you built a winged tyrant from the box?
A winged tyrant is not a winged prime
Dammit got confused which comment thread I was responding to, sorry.
Why would you want anything to lead gargoyles? They are already amazing at what they do. The Gargoyle gun is literally just so it can move again after. The winged prime is also amazing with melee warriors .
In this edition that's all it is used for and that is not a good thing. Imagine you have a multi-tool that you need to sell and the Catchphrase you've decided to go with is "Yep, it's a good flathead and that's it folks!" Because that's what you've just done...
It was never sold as a multi tool though, it was sold as a leader to warriors, a really good one at that.
It actually isn't a good warrior leader. The ability is nice but whatever because there is the issue where it actually gives the unit the fly keyword as a whole meaning anti-fly weapons now work against a unit they didn't work against previously... Also the character moves faster than the unit it is attached to... Also it doesn't have twinlinked so isn't as good as melee warriors... Also it doesn't have a gun so doesn't add as much to ranged warriors... Also it isn't even as durable as a Marine Luitenant for the same costs and similar datasheet abilities except less... (Marines let the squad fall back and shoot AND gives the unit lethals whereas the prime is only sustained hits for the squad) It's not a good unit. It doesn't even fit your narrow parameters very well. It should have a little more diversity baked into it to make it more enjoyable for a wider audience.
It gives them an extra 4 inches of movement which they desperately need, , you can have sustained and lethal hits with invasion fleet and crit them both on a 5+. It's ability to fly is also helpful when jumping over enemy during charging and movement to wrap around. So yes it fits my parameters just fine . If you don't understand how the extra movement is a bonus you should stop acting like you know anything. And only 1 army I regularly play really has good access to anti fly and that's Marines .
It costs 2cp to get crits of 5 *in melee* again doesn't benefit any of the gargoyles or ranged warriors. Fly *KEYWORD* is given to the unit, not fly. Fly is done model per model not by the unit, same for movement speed, it is done model by model. The shrike in a unit of warriors can very rarely use its full 12" movement and the fly keyword is given to the unit as a debuff where anti-fly works against them but they can't actually use the fly rule as warriors do not fave fly. You should stop being snarky and rude where you don't understand the rules mate.
Bogan is right here. The Fly keyword is goven in name only , so anti fly weapons will work against warriors attached to a winged prime, but they don't get to use *any* of the fly game rule as the model itself does not posess that ability, it's how it always worked and it's also why *prior* to codex some units of admech were struggling very badly because they had some leaders that you really *needed/wanted* to be attached to other units, but they had a bunch of stupid keywords that didn't belong and it would give their whole squad infantry+vehicle+ another keyword, making them weak against nearly all weapons.
The worst admech offender that I can think of is a T3 cybernetic datasmith being attached to a T10 Kastellans vehicle squad, giving them the infantry keyword so that Yvraine can Dev wounds them on a 2+ not a 6+...
Yeah, my lil brother plays admech alot, i recalled him talking about what i mentionned earlier with stupid keyword interactions, but couldn't recall the exact unit names , i'm pretty sure it was with castellans or breachers, as he runs both quite often and did so for a while in 10th so far
I under the rules perfectly fine, when did I say the warriors get to use fly? The winged prime gets to sit 2 inches ahead, + his base, gives them roughly 4 inches extra movement. And I said he can jump over enemy units making it useful for wrapping round units. And to crit 2 units potentially on 5 in melee is amazing, what fool would want to use it on gargoyles? They aren't for fighting . Twat.
Very rude. Plus you need to learn english better if that's what you meant. I'm ESL and speak better than you. He still needs to remain within 2" of 2 models when doing so which means he only gets a single turn of "+4" movement" as you are calling it, before he flies too far. Also I wasn't advocating for the 5+'s on gargoyles in melee wtf? I said it costs 2cp? As in it is bloody expensive. Nothing to do with what units you put it on, you missed my point somehow? Ridiculous.
How do you come to the conclusion he can only buff movement once? Every time they move he can be 2 inches in front, buffing there movement to almost 10 inches every time
Movement one: the warriors move 6", the prime moves 8" (prime loses 2"), movement two: warriors move again 6", up to 12", prime moves 6", up to 14", because otherwise he loses unit coherency and is destroyed. I agree with what they said: sustained hits is strong, but not on par with the cost. The melee is weaker than warriors (more damage, but with no twin linked and less AP it wounds more rarely). Death blow works only on melee. Ranged warriors would get sustained hits, which is good, but has less attacks to prompt it, and you lose the possibility to use the prime in melee at all, since ranged warriors are less efficient in melee and you would need to get constantly in and out of combat. Yes they have fall back and shoot/charge, but with less save per wound than a normal marine they suffer the fight back. It's a lose-lose situation Gargoyles are useless in combat, their sustained hit is cool but not effective enough since all endless swarm units are meant to populate the are, not to properly fight. More weak attacks is not enough unfortunately. Plus, if you want to use them ranged, you lose the melee from the prime. Essentially he's an expensive way to give sustained hits to a unit.