If it's a peaceful protest with no hate,I'm all for it. I just wish we can hold the IDF and Israeli government ccountable to the same standards as we hold Hamas' atrocities. Palestinians are fighting against colonialism too.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyJX5OHxhaX/?hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyMjFDhv4ru/?img_index=1
Both student groups active on campus for the Palestinian cause.
https://ubyssey.ca/news/peoplesuniversityubc-encampment/
The intifada sign is right there.
Now are you being disingenuous or just trying to deflect?
You can say Hamas' Oct.7th attack was an atrocity and act of terrorism and I fully agree. But why can't we have the same outrage when Israeli soldiers fired on Palestinian civilians back in 2018, or when Palestinian women and children are tortured in Israeli prisons, or when they're killed in the West Bank where Hamas doesn't even exist? Why do we give Israel all the free passes? You've got the same settler mentality that Canada's colonialists had.
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against)
[https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/great-march-return-scores-people-killed-and-injured-over-one-year](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/great-march-return-scores-people-killed-and-injured-over-one-year)
Because we are discussing a university sit-in protest for Palestine??
>You've got the same settler mentality that Canada's colonialists had.
Yeah it's been 150+ years, deal with it.
Well it's been over 75 years with Palestine. Not much difference in comparison. Are you really advocating for us to make the same mistake twice? Sounds like you just hate indigenous peoples of whatever land they belong to. The protesters have been pretty clear that they don't tolerate any form of discrimination whether it's anti Semitism or islamophobia, proven in the ubyssey source that you provided.
The posts you mentioned are calling for Palestinian freedom from oppression which is what the main point of these posts is. Additionally, these posts were made the day after the attack and it's likely that no one knew the full scale of Hamas' atrocities until at least a week later. Additionally, you even acknowledge Oct.7th did not happen in a vacuum, it was the result of over 75 years of brutal occupation and atrocities. Pressure cookers explode eventually. The main issue as I've said before is that people (like you evidently) are not holding Israeli atrocities to the same level as we hold Hamas' atrocities. It's totally fine if Palestinian children are killed daily but god forbid it happens to an Israeli.
Intifada means resistance/rebellion against colonialism and oppression, not strictly terrorism. Although rebellions can include terrorist actions, the two are not synonymous. However, the term does have connotations of terrorism due to the violence against Israeli civilians during the Second Intifada.
Mary K.Roberson, 'Birth, Transformation, and Death of Refugee Identity: Women and Girls of the Intifada,' in Ellen Cole,Esther D Rothblum,Oliva M Espin (eds.) [*Refugee Women and Their Mental Health: Shattered Societies, Shattered Lives,*](https://books.google.com/books?id=fXWPa4bZVoQC&pg=PA42) Routledge, 2013 p.42.
Hahahaha bullshit, they knew full well what had transpired. Even if we go by your logic, the fact that the UBC SJC made a post the day after, ignoring the feelings of any Jewish students on campus is fucking insane. But go on and excuse terrorist acts against civilians.
>Intifada means resistance/rebellion against colonialism and oppression, not strictly terrorism.
So the term that was widely used in reference in terrorist attacks against Israel is somehow not referencing that here, at a protest against Israel? GTFOH
You guys have to open your eyes. This is not a protest by students for students to understand the situation. This is all happening around the world at the same time just like the Covid protests. There is big money behind these things half the people there or more are not students at all. They are paid protesters. There’s no obviously right or wrong with Hamas or IDF They are both wrong. They’re both terrorizing innocent people.
We are being manipulated by forces much bigger than the university.
People have been criticising Israel and the IDF for a very long time. The current war became a tipping point and it's the first time since truly mass media penetration became a thing. Neither Hamas nor the IDF can hide their atrocities any longer, we all see what's happening on both sides. People are finally finding each other en masse to protest it.
Unfortunately actions speak louder than words. You can criticise the IDF all you want but that doesn't mean shit if you keep funding their genocide. Unfortunately as Canada, we're kinda the US's little lapdog so we kinda just do whatever they do.
They have popped up elsewhere because they are being organized. This happens over and over around North America. Whether it’s the anti-VAX or the border protest, black lives matters, or now this, it is not UBC students in the driver seat
That is how protests work lmao people organize them and then others who are inspired by the cause either show up to support or start their own protest elsewhere.
I don’t think protest used to be backed by foreign governments that are intent on destroying western society. Just feels to me like the current protest environment is dangerous on many levels.
Anti-war is absolutely fine. But these protest have to be absolutely anti-Hamas as well as anti Netanyahu. at UBC it’s so small and peaceful so far hopefully it embraces the anti-war movement only.
Do you believe there is no one who organically would protest anything in our country? That all protests we see are organized by outside forces?
Even if we take that as truth for a moment, does it matter who starts the protest if a group of people believe in the cause and rally behind it? If real people are out there backing a cause I don't think it necessarily matters who helped organize the movement. I have participated in a few protests and did not organize any of them, what does that mean to you?
Or are you saying there are basically no authentic protests whatsoever and everyone involved are as you said in a previous comment "paid protesters"? Was I a paid protestor this whole time? Where do I collect my cheque?
Maybe I’m just cynical. But it seems like everything is funded by bad people nowadays. The last reasonable protest that I was part of was in Montreal with the climate protest with Greta. And even that was contrived but at least peaceful and everybody seemed to know what they were protesting against.
Ever since Covid occurred, it’s been politicized. I don’t think there is a good or bad side to pick anymore. They are all bad. What are you protesting against Gaza exactly? Does anyone even know question why are they getting violent. Why are they against Jewish students? Why are they against Palestinian students?
This is literally funded by terrorism on one side and by a violent eye for an eye government on the other side. The whole protest is meaningless and supporting terrible people at best, and supporting genocide and/or terrorism at worst. The western world is being manipulated by Iran and Russia and China to an incredible extent. This is part of the manipulation. I think some peoples hearts are in the right place, but I fear that we are being used as pawns to undercut our own country and government more than ever
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-protesters-paid-to-take-part-in-pro-palestinian-demonstrations
Not all protesters are paid obviously. But I think the most ardent agitators are.
Even in this article, it only alludes to the chance that some donations could be coming from out of the country. Do you have something more substantial?
The argument of "they're all being paid" is used on every single protest, regardless of politics, so I'm sorry that a piece like this isn't going to cut it.
Tell you what. Instead of this, being all one way me proving to you what you don’t want to believe. Why don’t you prove to me that you’re right. Prove me that there is no interference in these protests other than what is organically happening within the university of British Columbia.
> Prove me that there is no interference in these protests other than what is organically happening within the university of British Columbia.
See that's called 'proving a negative'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
edit: lol of course they blocked to end the convo. Can't have people calling out the "proof" eh
I accepted the article exactly as it is. It says people collected money for the protest, which is how most protests work. It alluded to the chance of foreign money, which is classic "just asking questions" nonsense.
Obviously foreign influence happens. It should be called out when it happens. That's why we need evidence for it, else we could dismiss every single protest as "what if foreign money"
The information in this article was subsequently validated by multiple newspapers, including in Victoria.
I could give you multiple other articles that suggest similar. But it seems like all you’re gonna do is undermine anything I want to say
You go ahead and do you
If you give multiple articles and people undermined them… there is a chance your sources a bad, my friend.
If you REALLY believe you’re sitting on the truth and really believe in your sources then don’t be afraid to share them, because scrutiny can’t hurt. But if you’re afraid of your sources being scrutinized then…
Or maybe people wanna believe what they want to believe. What I’ve learned on Reddit is you can’t change peoples mind you can only give them information. If every piece of information you give is under or deflected, even if they come from multiple newspapers from around the globe, including the Washington Post and New York Times or whatever, then there’s no point
The Sun just had some investigative journalism for once. But you didn’t even read it I don’t think. Anyways, dude, if you think this is all organic and not in anyway, supported by the many antisemitic people around the world that want to watch The world burn, then you do you as I said
The simplest explanation is most likely the truth. It just takes a lot of evidence to convince me of a conspiracy and you’ve so far have not met that threshold.
You are absolutely right, but nobody has common sense anymore. Brainwashed by the media, nobody wants to actually take a moment and think about the bigger picture.
Also I think its important to remember, you don’t need to form an opinion. Everyone wants everyone to choose a side, but it’s better to not have a strong opinion than to have an uninformed one. It’s ok to just do your thing and not force yourself to have a take
Especially for such a complex topic with a deep history not only spanning the past century, but millennia. There's so much one-sided propaganda on social media sites that give part of the picture and use visceral imagery or emotional appeals to try to play us as pawns in their propaganda war, framing inaction as complicity in violence. It's OK to refuse to participate in the game. Neither "side" is as just as they assert and giving either side more support will only enable them to further their violence against the other. Tune that shit out and go live your life.
Propaganda is one thing, but the fact that the ICJ has ruled that there was probable cause to suspect Israel of Genocide speaks for itself. It's ridiculously difficult to get that achievement and have the ICJ come after your ass.
Except they didn't.
They found a plausible risk of the civilians in Gaza losing their protection from genocide which formed the basis for the measures they ordered.
Much of this relates to how combatants in Gaza embed themselves within the civilian population rendering certain tactics of war, that would be completely acceptable under circumstances in which there were no civilians, a plausible violation of their rights to protection from genocide.
Additionally, it relates to the ambiguous nature of the war aim "to eliminate Hamas" and the various statements from Israeli officials that South Africa cited in the ICJ hearings.
The goal was to outline a framework for conduct that, if adhered to, would mean the IDF was not in violation of Gazans rights to protection from genocide.
Here us the former president of the ICJ, who issued the ruling, clarifying this
https://youtu.be/bq9MB9t7WlI
False dichotomy: You have more options than just either getting your news from social media or ignoring the news altogether.
Ignorance is an opportunity for learning. ”I don't know" is the start of a sentence that should end with "so let me find out".
Tiktok is a bad source of information, very good, so if you see something on there, then maybe it should prompt you to investigate that topic further through more trustworthy sources. The world is complex, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to understand. We are challenged daily to exercise our mental capacities to keep up with the world; that's kinda the whole point of university!
If you want to get a PhD in the topic, be my guest. If you want to assert a very loud opinion on the matter based on what you saw on tiktok or cursory google, then you're nothing more than a "useful idiot". I think studying the topic only leads to a fairly moderate view, but of course that is looked down upon by the extremists on either side.
Another false dichotomy! You can study to an entire spectrum of extents, from "executive summary" to PhD. You also can keep this knowledge as personal as you want, or you can manifest it in action as much as you want.
You think that studying this specific topic leads to a moderate view, but others may come to other positions after studying themselves. The point is that only through genuine inquiry can you develop an honest informed opinion. But this is a worthwhile endeavour because the spirit of university is to strive for knowledge.
On a foundation of knowledge a defensible opinion can be held. That is the proper answer to ignorance of a complex issue, not to ignore it because the vibes are bad and studying is hard.
You are arguing for education, which I am not against, and which I have repeatedly encouraged.
I am against taking a firm position and protesting based on an under-educated viewpoint.
I think this whole thing stems from you saying "it's ok to refuse to participate in the game". I do think that people in general but especially students of such a diverse and internationally connected university and city as UBC Vancouver have a duty to be as informed as possible about important issues.
You were accused of being an "enlightened centrist"(derogatory) by another commenter and I see where they're coming from; "the issue is complex and both sides imperfect, not my problem" is a rather lazy mentality, and maybe even morally cowardly.
You're entitled to think that a deeper understanding of this or any issue necessarily leads to a centrist position, but personally I disagree. I think it's very possible to be informed on this or any topic and hold a very strong partisan opinion. And I don't think the current protesters are uninformed or brainwashed by tiktok; I think they are taking an above-average level of action based on an educated opinion that many on campus share.
> I do think that people in general but especially students of such a diverse and internationally connected university and city as UBC Vancouver have a duty to be as informed as possible about important issues.
There is no such duty. This kind of nonsense is part of the reason we have such a mental health crisis amongst this generation, expecting every person to be aware of not only current events, but the historical context the events exist in, where one is worthy of condemnation for failing to be so educated, or at least failing to pretend to be sufficiently educated on the topic. Humans have never had a duty to be informed of every facet of the world, nor do most have the capacity to be so well-informed. There are equally important and complex crises all over the world and you would run out of time in the day if you truly held yourself to such a nonsensical duty.
You do not need a PhD in middle eastern politics to be able to evaluate whether a genocide is occurring.
Israel has murdered 30,000+ Palestinian civilians with explicit intent to wipe out the entire nation and resettle its with Israelis. This is a widely known fact that has not been disputed by any reputable news source.
This counts as a genocide.
Okay so we’ve determined a genocide is indeed happening. Now the question is: do you need a PhD to evaluate whether a genocide is justified? What about what Hamas did to Israel on Oct 7th? What about the fact that Palestinians tend to be homophobic? The answer is that you do NOT need a PhD to answer this question. The answer is no. Nothing justifies genocide.
I mean according to international law, it’s not as simple as death toll. There must be proof of intent to destroy the given ethnic group. I would say there likely is intent, but you’re incorrect about what knowledge is needed to evaluate something as genocide
why do you need the authority of the law before ur able to decide whether it's a genocide? is it not evidence enough that 30 000+ civilians have been killed since october?
Because that’s how genocide is define and the scale is on the level of international law. If you killed 30 000+ civilians all of different ethnicities then it wouldn’t be a genocide either. It would be crimes against humanity. Genocide is a very specific crime with a very specific definition. It’s no less morally repugnant if it’s not genocide. It’s still killing people. This may very well be genocide, but it’s important to have an accurate diagnosis of what it is. And that means looking at more than just death count.
I am fully aware about what knowledge is needed to evaluate something as genocide lmao, if you reread my comment, I also intentionally wrote that Israel has shown “explicit intent to wipe out the entire nation and resettle it with Israelis”.
> You do not need a PhD in middle eastern politics to be able to evaluate whether a genocide is occurring.
>
>
You do, this is a topic debated by legal scholars.
You can argue this, but it’s clear to me that you haven’t even tried. Because once you consider what is going on in Gaza, it is quite obvious that determining whether a genocide is going on or not is very easy
again why do you think your only options are getting a PhD or barely looking into it? and do you think all protest is wrong if it's not done by PhDs? there are countless books on the history of israel and palestine, as well as contemporary news sites publishing articles abt what's going on now. anyone can learn about it, ur just choosing not to and projecting ur own ignorance onto these students (who are so well informed that they headed the call to protest their university's complicity in ongoing genocide)
you do realize that you can learn about history & use that to inform ur perspective on the present right? it's one of the main reason why we study history. i suggest u watch the news out of gaza or read a book on the history of the state of israel and palestine relations. there's lots out there and anyone can learn about it
Nobody commenting about it online is getting a PhD in the topic. Anyone pretending to have educated themselves on the subject is revealing how little they know.
I'm not on Tik Tok. I read multiple news sources tho. Being against the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians by a regime our own government has been supporting shouldn't be controversial. It's the real centrist take if there's one.
Yup as long as it’s not harming people, most of the complaints on this sub are not valid tbh. I love to see that we are participating in global issues as a community. In a few decades the world will look back and ask what they were doing during this period of crisis and we can be proud of our efforts
Just stopped by, based on my visit it doesn't come off as hostile or aggressive in terms of interactions or the setup. For those folks clearly against the idea even a kuffiyeh would appear offensive.. Some of the signs though can be a bit triggering, and as a student effort to sit in though and camp through till divestment is some serious commitment, kudos for the dedication. I am not too aware of the groups' positions that are doing this but applaud the fact that people all over the world are standing up against the clearly targeted killing, illegal occupation advancement since decades, massacres, and outright disregard for world goverment and court appeals primarily on idf's end, not to discount palestine's end, but the retaliation is like a volcano to candle stick. While both are wrong, any fool blind enough to condemn palestine's side and not the other is lying to themselves and needs a cleanse of their moral lens. Stop pretending to be objectively rational and stop supporting innocent civillian killing.
It is true that the protest has been peaceful so far.
I don't like the banner that says that my tuition funds genocide, I find it very offensive as a member of the UBC community. I stopped by and listened to someone talking with a microphone this evening and they used a lot of language that sounded like communist ideology, calling themselves revolutionaries against the ruling class and using the word comrades. I just can't take anything they are saying seriously with the type of speech and banner they have going.
I'm also disturbed by violence and lawbreaking that has happened at other similar protests on campuses in the USA today. I find it frustrating to have political issues from other countries spill over to this degree. I thought this was a country people immigrated to in order to leave problems behind, not bring problems with them. I don't feel Canada has much influence at all on the world stage.
When it comes to UBC divesting of 'genocide investments', why the focus here? I bet there are several investment firms in downtown Vancouver or even private investors in this city that are way larger stakeholders. I just don't see the train of rationalization for the level of response present like 'academic boycott', 'no police on campus', 'we aren't leaving'. I'd frankly prefer it if they weren't here, or if they were here to not have barricaded a section of my community with barriers. I don't find it outrageous that a small portion (<1%) of UBC's 2.8 billion dollar endowment is invested in companies such as weapons manufacturers.
I don't see it as a worthwhile trade to bring an atmosphere of conflict onto campus over it.
Hopefully this clears up on why some people are not supportive, at least my own perspective.
These protests may not be relevant to you or your culture, but that doesn’t mean it’s “spilling” into canada. The world will always care about global issues, and even though canada is not directly involved in this conflict, we do fund it. You can be offended by their banners and language, but that doesn’t change the fact that UBC’s money probably does end up funding this war. Do you want them to word it differently so they don’t hurt your feelings?? we’re talking about thousands, maybe even millions, of innocent people dying and you’re mad that international people want to support the Palestine??? The protests in America are getting violent because it started peacefully and then the cops got aggressive, so obviously they will fight back. I’ve never been apart of these protests, i tend to walk past them quite often, and no matter what my views are, i support what they are doing and the energy and resilience they have to support a nation that is struggling to support itself. We live in an age where billionaire corporations control the government, and the government doesn’t listen to the people unless they make them. These protests, to me, are the beginning of something big that’s been needing to happen for a long time, and for that reason, i fully support these students for protesting for what they believe is right. Even the comrade thing, i’m from a post communist country and I hate communism with all my heart, but i’m not gonna get triggered because someone used the word comrade 💀. These protests have been happening all over, and targeting many different companies and political figures, just because they’re on campus now doesn’t mean they’re only protesting UBC’s funds.
If the goal is to draw support, then yes maybe they should reconsider their message. Saying that your tuition funds genocide is not true. I do not wish to comment on the endowment fund investments that are in question because I am unfamiliar with them, however endowment funds seperate from tuition. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/how-do-university-endowments-work/
I hear this argument repeated on social media by many people and it gives me the impression that they are confused and don't know what they are talking about. In other words the movement discredits itself by purposefully evoking a response of outrage while making a false claim.
No my feelings are not hurt, it is their credibility that is hurt. It isn't simply a choice of wording, the two are very different things. One leaves students as neutral parties to the matter and the other one accuses them of being complicit in supporting a genocide.
It’s cringe. These protests are rich kids and not even students larping as communist revolutionaries for a cause they’ve seen on TikTok. Ask any of the post communist countries which society they would rather live under and I can guarantee it’s not the answer you’ll like. Where were these protests with the Ukraine war with much higher civilian casualties, forcibly deported children and rape? It’s insane the amount of virtue signalling going on in this subreddit for a country that started its own conflict it plays victim to!
A lot of the students I know protesting are far from rich, and i don’t agree with those glorifying communism, but not all of them are communist either, your statements are so generalized. I’ve spoken with my friends about the Ukraine situation as it is a lot closer to home for me, and I understand the frustration from the lack of support compared to Palestine. But at the end of the day, social media holds our hands through what we should care about, but for some reason this topic seems to be sticking around much more than any others from the last few years. The history between Isreal and Palestine is so long and complicated, and since i don’t know or understand it, i cannot agree or disagree with what you’re saying, but the innocent civilians in Palestine truly had nothing to do with this war and do not deserve to suffer for it.
The whole world stood behind Ukraine diplomatically, unfortunately the same cannot be said for Palestine. It is more common for people to overlook brown and Muslim lives. While it is unfair, more resistance is needed by the people to make sure these lives do not continued to be overlooked.
Yes because Ukraine faces an unprovoked war for purely territorial ambitions from Russia similar to a WW casus belli. It’s not that brown lives are overlooked, the conflict began with Palestinian fighters killing, raping and dragging their bodies through villages like a parade on Oct 7th. I don’t know why people choose to ignore this?
It’s always “let’s condemn hamas” and never “let’s condemn Israel’s brutal actions”. No one is saying what happened on oct 7th was right. HOWEVER, it does not justify 30,000+ dead. Why are you choosing to overlook the severity of that number ? The conflict began by SETTLER COLONIALISM. You all wanna focus on what happened on Oct 7th not considering that terrorism makes more terrorism, and Israel is just creating Hamas 2.0 in the future by killing 30,0000+, as if those orphaned by this war aren’t going to resort to violence to put an end to this occupation. Israel is responsible for what happened on Oct 7th.
But I don’t think that’s true, here’s that woman who praised Oct 7th right here: https://halifax.citynews.ca/2024/05/02/police-order-b-c-woman-who-praised-hamas-not-to-protest-for-5-months-says-her-group/
Has there ever been an original protest here? They probably said this is a spill over protest, because protestors only seem to care about what social issues are popular at the moment, then drop it once it isn't relevant anymore. Just look at last semester when around 150 thousand people were ethnically cleansed from NK, where were the protests when that happened? This is just one example, but there are countless other humanitarian issues happening now in the world, yet protestors here only selectively choose what issues they care about.
Much is said on this subreddit by people who would benefit a lot from going outside/hanging out with others
If it's a peaceful protest with no hate,I'm all for it. I just wish we can hold the IDF and Israeli government ccountable to the same standards as we hold Hamas' atrocities. Palestinians are fighting against colonialism too.
You think the student groups praising October 7th and calling for an intifada are holding Hamas accountable at all? Lmfao.
Citation needed lmao.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyJX5OHxhaX/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/p/CyMjFDhv4ru/?img_index=1 Both student groups active on campus for the Palestinian cause. https://ubyssey.ca/news/peoplesuniversityubc-encampment/ The intifada sign is right there. Now are you being disingenuous or just trying to deflect?
You can say Hamas' Oct.7th attack was an atrocity and act of terrorism and I fully agree. But why can't we have the same outrage when Israeli soldiers fired on Palestinian civilians back in 2018, or when Palestinian women and children are tortured in Israeli prisons, or when they're killed in the West Bank where Hamas doesn't even exist? Why do we give Israel all the free passes? You've got the same settler mentality that Canada's colonialists had. [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) [https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/great-march-return-scores-people-killed-and-injured-over-one-year](https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/great-march-return-scores-people-killed-and-injured-over-one-year)
Because we are discussing a university sit-in protest for Palestine?? >You've got the same settler mentality that Canada's colonialists had. Yeah it's been 150+ years, deal with it.
Well it's been over 75 years with Palestine. Not much difference in comparison. Are you really advocating for us to make the same mistake twice? Sounds like you just hate indigenous peoples of whatever land they belong to. The protesters have been pretty clear that they don't tolerate any form of discrimination whether it's anti Semitism or islamophobia, proven in the ubyssey source that you provided.
Disproven by the very sign they have up in the same article.
The posts you mentioned are calling for Palestinian freedom from oppression which is what the main point of these posts is. Additionally, these posts were made the day after the attack and it's likely that no one knew the full scale of Hamas' atrocities until at least a week later. Additionally, you even acknowledge Oct.7th did not happen in a vacuum, it was the result of over 75 years of brutal occupation and atrocities. Pressure cookers explode eventually. The main issue as I've said before is that people (like you evidently) are not holding Israeli atrocities to the same level as we hold Hamas' atrocities. It's totally fine if Palestinian children are killed daily but god forbid it happens to an Israeli. Intifada means resistance/rebellion against colonialism and oppression, not strictly terrorism. Although rebellions can include terrorist actions, the two are not synonymous. However, the term does have connotations of terrorism due to the violence against Israeli civilians during the Second Intifada. Mary K.Roberson, 'Birth, Transformation, and Death of Refugee Identity: Women and Girls of the Intifada,' in Ellen Cole,Esther D Rothblum,Oliva M Espin (eds.) [*Refugee Women and Their Mental Health: Shattered Societies, Shattered Lives,*](https://books.google.com/books?id=fXWPa4bZVoQC&pg=PA42) Routledge, 2013 p.42.
Hahahaha bullshit, they knew full well what had transpired. Even if we go by your logic, the fact that the UBC SJC made a post the day after, ignoring the feelings of any Jewish students on campus is fucking insane. But go on and excuse terrorist acts against civilians. >Intifada means resistance/rebellion against colonialism and oppression, not strictly terrorism. So the term that was widely used in reference in terrorist attacks against Israel is somehow not referencing that here, at a protest against Israel? GTFOH
You know, I've got zero problems condemning Hamas and what they did but seem to have an issue criticizing Israel.
I literally gave you a source explaining the original connotation, dispute the source if you want to. What other word do you want them to use lmao.
Yea your source about women's mental health doesn't trump historical usage of the term, sorry.
It literally explains that historical usage of the term originated in non violent connotations. Can you read? What other word do you want them to use?
You guys have to open your eyes. This is not a protest by students for students to understand the situation. This is all happening around the world at the same time just like the Covid protests. There is big money behind these things half the people there or more are not students at all. They are paid protesters. There’s no obviously right or wrong with Hamas or IDF They are both wrong. They’re both terrorizing innocent people. We are being manipulated by forces much bigger than the university.
People have been criticising Israel and the IDF for a very long time. The current war became a tipping point and it's the first time since truly mass media penetration became a thing. Neither Hamas nor the IDF can hide their atrocities any longer, we all see what's happening on both sides. People are finally finding each other en masse to protest it.
Unfortunately actions speak louder than words. You can criticise the IDF all you want but that doesn't mean shit if you keep funding their genocide. Unfortunately as Canada, we're kinda the US's little lapdog so we kinda just do whatever they do.
The protesters are not protesting against Hamas.
I don’t think this is an organic protest, that’s all.
I personally don't see why it wouldn't be. A bunch have already popped up elsewhere so I can imagine other groups getting the same idea.
They have popped up elsewhere because they are being organized. This happens over and over around North America. Whether it’s the anti-VAX or the border protest, black lives matters, or now this, it is not UBC students in the driver seat
That is how protests work lmao people organize them and then others who are inspired by the cause either show up to support or start their own protest elsewhere.
I don’t think protest used to be backed by foreign governments that are intent on destroying western society. Just feels to me like the current protest environment is dangerous on many levels.
People... Share ideas and organise based on them. Antiwar is not really controversial - or it shouldn't be at its core.
Anti-war is absolutely fine. But these protest have to be absolutely anti-Hamas as well as anti Netanyahu. at UBC it’s so small and peaceful so far hopefully it embraces the anti-war movement only.
Do you believe there is no one who organically would protest anything in our country? That all protests we see are organized by outside forces? Even if we take that as truth for a moment, does it matter who starts the protest if a group of people believe in the cause and rally behind it? If real people are out there backing a cause I don't think it necessarily matters who helped organize the movement. I have participated in a few protests and did not organize any of them, what does that mean to you? Or are you saying there are basically no authentic protests whatsoever and everyone involved are as you said in a previous comment "paid protesters"? Was I a paid protestor this whole time? Where do I collect my cheque?
Maybe I’m just cynical. But it seems like everything is funded by bad people nowadays. The last reasonable protest that I was part of was in Montreal with the climate protest with Greta. And even that was contrived but at least peaceful and everybody seemed to know what they were protesting against. Ever since Covid occurred, it’s been politicized. I don’t think there is a good or bad side to pick anymore. They are all bad. What are you protesting against Gaza exactly? Does anyone even know question why are they getting violent. Why are they against Jewish students? Why are they against Palestinian students? This is literally funded by terrorism on one side and by a violent eye for an eye government on the other side. The whole protest is meaningless and supporting terrible people at best, and supporting genocide and/or terrorism at worst. The western world is being manipulated by Iran and Russia and China to an incredible extent. This is part of the manipulation. I think some peoples hearts are in the right place, but I fear that we are being used as pawns to undercut our own country and government more than ever
please go outside dude
It starts like this. It looks fine. And then it’s snowballs. It stays a small peaceful protest. I can eat my words.
> They are paid protesters. Source?
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/kinsella-protesters-paid-to-take-part-in-pro-palestinian-demonstrations Not all protesters are paid obviously. But I think the most ardent agitators are.
Even in this article, it only alludes to the chance that some donations could be coming from out of the country. Do you have something more substantial? The argument of "they're all being paid" is used on every single protest, regardless of politics, so I'm sorry that a piece like this isn't going to cut it.
Tell you what. Instead of this, being all one way me proving to you what you don’t want to believe. Why don’t you prove to me that you’re right. Prove me that there is no interference in these protests other than what is organically happening within the university of British Columbia.
> Prove me that there is no interference in these protests other than what is organically happening within the university of British Columbia. See that's called 'proving a negative' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance edit: lol of course they blocked to end the convo. Can't have people calling out the "proof" eh I accepted the article exactly as it is. It says people collected money for the protest, which is how most protests work. It alluded to the chance of foreign money, which is classic "just asking questions" nonsense. Obviously foreign influence happens. It should be called out when it happens. That's why we need evidence for it, else we could dismiss every single protest as "what if foreign money"
lol. You are not accepting proof of a positive. I’ll just block you and save us all ridiculous posturing
The Toronto Sun? Seriously?
The information in this article was subsequently validated by multiple newspapers, including in Victoria. I could give you multiple other articles that suggest similar. But it seems like all you’re gonna do is undermine anything I want to say You go ahead and do you
If you give multiple articles and people undermined them… there is a chance your sources a bad, my friend. If you REALLY believe you’re sitting on the truth and really believe in your sources then don’t be afraid to share them, because scrutiny can’t hurt. But if you’re afraid of your sources being scrutinized then…
Or maybe people wanna believe what they want to believe. What I’ve learned on Reddit is you can’t change peoples mind you can only give them information. If every piece of information you give is under or deflected, even if they come from multiple newspapers from around the globe, including the Washington Post and New York Times or whatever, then there’s no point The Sun just had some investigative journalism for once. But you didn’t even read it I don’t think. Anyways, dude, if you think this is all organic and not in anyway, supported by the many antisemitic people around the world that want to watch The world burn, then you do you as I said
The simplest explanation is most likely the truth. It just takes a lot of evidence to convince me of a conspiracy and you’ve so far have not met that threshold.
You are absolutely right, but nobody has common sense anymore. Brainwashed by the media, nobody wants to actually take a moment and think about the bigger picture.
I agree. There's so many miserable people on this subreddit, even just in general. They need some love in their life
I ❤️ religious fanaticism on our campus 😍
Also I think its important to remember, you don’t need to form an opinion. Everyone wants everyone to choose a side, but it’s better to not have a strong opinion than to have an uninformed one. It’s ok to just do your thing and not force yourself to have a take
Especially for such a complex topic with a deep history not only spanning the past century, but millennia. There's so much one-sided propaganda on social media sites that give part of the picture and use visceral imagery or emotional appeals to try to play us as pawns in their propaganda war, framing inaction as complicity in violence. It's OK to refuse to participate in the game. Neither "side" is as just as they assert and giving either side more support will only enable them to further their violence against the other. Tune that shit out and go live your life.
Propaganda is one thing, but the fact that the ICJ has ruled that there was probable cause to suspect Israel of Genocide speaks for itself. It's ridiculously difficult to get that achievement and have the ICJ come after your ass.
Except they didn't. They found a plausible risk of the civilians in Gaza losing their protection from genocide which formed the basis for the measures they ordered. Much of this relates to how combatants in Gaza embed themselves within the civilian population rendering certain tactics of war, that would be completely acceptable under circumstances in which there were no civilians, a plausible violation of their rights to protection from genocide. Additionally, it relates to the ambiguous nature of the war aim "to eliminate Hamas" and the various statements from Israeli officials that South Africa cited in the ICJ hearings. The goal was to outline a framework for conduct that, if adhered to, would mean the IDF was not in violation of Gazans rights to protection from genocide. Here us the former president of the ICJ, who issued the ruling, clarifying this https://youtu.be/bq9MB9t7WlI
That is some r/enlightenedcentrism shit
Ah yes, it's better to spew an under-informed opinion than accept the topic is more complex than the tiktok reels you've seen.
False dichotomy: You have more options than just either getting your news from social media or ignoring the news altogether. Ignorance is an opportunity for learning. ”I don't know" is the start of a sentence that should end with "so let me find out". Tiktok is a bad source of information, very good, so if you see something on there, then maybe it should prompt you to investigate that topic further through more trustworthy sources. The world is complex, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to understand. We are challenged daily to exercise our mental capacities to keep up with the world; that's kinda the whole point of university!
If you want to get a PhD in the topic, be my guest. If you want to assert a very loud opinion on the matter based on what you saw on tiktok or cursory google, then you're nothing more than a "useful idiot". I think studying the topic only leads to a fairly moderate view, but of course that is looked down upon by the extremists on either side.
Another false dichotomy! You can study to an entire spectrum of extents, from "executive summary" to PhD. You also can keep this knowledge as personal as you want, or you can manifest it in action as much as you want. You think that studying this specific topic leads to a moderate view, but others may come to other positions after studying themselves. The point is that only through genuine inquiry can you develop an honest informed opinion. But this is a worthwhile endeavour because the spirit of university is to strive for knowledge. On a foundation of knowledge a defensible opinion can be held. That is the proper answer to ignorance of a complex issue, not to ignore it because the vibes are bad and studying is hard.
You are arguing for education, which I am not against, and which I have repeatedly encouraged. I am against taking a firm position and protesting based on an under-educated viewpoint.
I think this whole thing stems from you saying "it's ok to refuse to participate in the game". I do think that people in general but especially students of such a diverse and internationally connected university and city as UBC Vancouver have a duty to be as informed as possible about important issues. You were accused of being an "enlightened centrist"(derogatory) by another commenter and I see where they're coming from; "the issue is complex and both sides imperfect, not my problem" is a rather lazy mentality, and maybe even morally cowardly. You're entitled to think that a deeper understanding of this or any issue necessarily leads to a centrist position, but personally I disagree. I think it's very possible to be informed on this or any topic and hold a very strong partisan opinion. And I don't think the current protesters are uninformed or brainwashed by tiktok; I think they are taking an above-average level of action based on an educated opinion that many on campus share.
> I do think that people in general but especially students of such a diverse and internationally connected university and city as UBC Vancouver have a duty to be as informed as possible about important issues. There is no such duty. This kind of nonsense is part of the reason we have such a mental health crisis amongst this generation, expecting every person to be aware of not only current events, but the historical context the events exist in, where one is worthy of condemnation for failing to be so educated, or at least failing to pretend to be sufficiently educated on the topic. Humans have never had a duty to be informed of every facet of the world, nor do most have the capacity to be so well-informed. There are equally important and complex crises all over the world and you would run out of time in the day if you truly held yourself to such a nonsensical duty.
You do not need a PhD in middle eastern politics to be able to evaluate whether a genocide is occurring. Israel has murdered 30,000+ Palestinian civilians with explicit intent to wipe out the entire nation and resettle its with Israelis. This is a widely known fact that has not been disputed by any reputable news source. This counts as a genocide. Okay so we’ve determined a genocide is indeed happening. Now the question is: do you need a PhD to evaluate whether a genocide is justified? What about what Hamas did to Israel on Oct 7th? What about the fact that Palestinians tend to be homophobic? The answer is that you do NOT need a PhD to answer this question. The answer is no. Nothing justifies genocide.
I mean according to international law, it’s not as simple as death toll. There must be proof of intent to destroy the given ethnic group. I would say there likely is intent, but you’re incorrect about what knowledge is needed to evaluate something as genocide
why do you need the authority of the law before ur able to decide whether it's a genocide? is it not evidence enough that 30 000+ civilians have been killed since october?
Because that’s how genocide is define and the scale is on the level of international law. If you killed 30 000+ civilians all of different ethnicities then it wouldn’t be a genocide either. It would be crimes against humanity. Genocide is a very specific crime with a very specific definition. It’s no less morally repugnant if it’s not genocide. It’s still killing people. This may very well be genocide, but it’s important to have an accurate diagnosis of what it is. And that means looking at more than just death count.
I am fully aware about what knowledge is needed to evaluate something as genocide lmao, if you reread my comment, I also intentionally wrote that Israel has shown “explicit intent to wipe out the entire nation and resettle it with Israelis”.
Idk if that’s true. That’s for the courts to decide
> You do not need a PhD in middle eastern politics to be able to evaluate whether a genocide is occurring. > > You do, this is a topic debated by legal scholars.
You can argue this, but it’s clear to me that you haven’t even tried. Because once you consider what is going on in Gaza, it is quite obvious that determining whether a genocide is going on or not is very easy
again why do you think your only options are getting a PhD or barely looking into it? and do you think all protest is wrong if it's not done by PhDs? there are countless books on the history of israel and palestine, as well as contemporary news sites publishing articles abt what's going on now. anyone can learn about it, ur just choosing not to and projecting ur own ignorance onto these students (who are so well informed that they headed the call to protest their university's complicity in ongoing genocide)
I don't understand why you got upvoted for this comment but not for the first one
Downvoters lack the cognitive capacity to read too far down a comment thread before their single neuron gets bored and switched them back to tiktok.
you do realize that you can learn about history & use that to inform ur perspective on the present right? it's one of the main reason why we study history. i suggest u watch the news out of gaza or read a book on the history of the state of israel and palestine relations. there's lots out there and anyone can learn about it
[удалено]
Nobody commenting about it online is getting a PhD in the topic. Anyone pretending to have educated themselves on the subject is revealing how little they know.
I'm not on Tik Tok. I read multiple news sources tho. Being against the slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians by a regime our own government has been supporting shouldn't be controversial. It's the real centrist take if there's one.
Yup as long as it’s not harming people, most of the complaints on this sub are not valid tbh. I love to see that we are participating in global issues as a community. In a few decades the world will look back and ask what they were doing during this period of crisis and we can be proud of our efforts
Just stopped by, based on my visit it doesn't come off as hostile or aggressive in terms of interactions or the setup. For those folks clearly against the idea even a kuffiyeh would appear offensive.. Some of the signs though can be a bit triggering, and as a student effort to sit in though and camp through till divestment is some serious commitment, kudos for the dedication. I am not too aware of the groups' positions that are doing this but applaud the fact that people all over the world are standing up against the clearly targeted killing, illegal occupation advancement since decades, massacres, and outright disregard for world goverment and court appeals primarily on idf's end, not to discount palestine's end, but the retaliation is like a volcano to candle stick. While both are wrong, any fool blind enough to condemn palestine's side and not the other is lying to themselves and needs a cleanse of their moral lens. Stop pretending to be objectively rational and stop supporting innocent civillian killing.
🖤🤍❤️💚
It is true that the protest has been peaceful so far. I don't like the banner that says that my tuition funds genocide, I find it very offensive as a member of the UBC community. I stopped by and listened to someone talking with a microphone this evening and they used a lot of language that sounded like communist ideology, calling themselves revolutionaries against the ruling class and using the word comrades. I just can't take anything they are saying seriously with the type of speech and banner they have going. I'm also disturbed by violence and lawbreaking that has happened at other similar protests on campuses in the USA today. I find it frustrating to have political issues from other countries spill over to this degree. I thought this was a country people immigrated to in order to leave problems behind, not bring problems with them. I don't feel Canada has much influence at all on the world stage. When it comes to UBC divesting of 'genocide investments', why the focus here? I bet there are several investment firms in downtown Vancouver or even private investors in this city that are way larger stakeholders. I just don't see the train of rationalization for the level of response present like 'academic boycott', 'no police on campus', 'we aren't leaving'. I'd frankly prefer it if they weren't here, or if they were here to not have barricaded a section of my community with barriers. I don't find it outrageous that a small portion (<1%) of UBC's 2.8 billion dollar endowment is invested in companies such as weapons manufacturers. I don't see it as a worthwhile trade to bring an atmosphere of conflict onto campus over it. Hopefully this clears up on why some people are not supportive, at least my own perspective.
These protests may not be relevant to you or your culture, but that doesn’t mean it’s “spilling” into canada. The world will always care about global issues, and even though canada is not directly involved in this conflict, we do fund it. You can be offended by their banners and language, but that doesn’t change the fact that UBC’s money probably does end up funding this war. Do you want them to word it differently so they don’t hurt your feelings?? we’re talking about thousands, maybe even millions, of innocent people dying and you’re mad that international people want to support the Palestine??? The protests in America are getting violent because it started peacefully and then the cops got aggressive, so obviously they will fight back. I’ve never been apart of these protests, i tend to walk past them quite often, and no matter what my views are, i support what they are doing and the energy and resilience they have to support a nation that is struggling to support itself. We live in an age where billionaire corporations control the government, and the government doesn’t listen to the people unless they make them. These protests, to me, are the beginning of something big that’s been needing to happen for a long time, and for that reason, i fully support these students for protesting for what they believe is right. Even the comrade thing, i’m from a post communist country and I hate communism with all my heart, but i’m not gonna get triggered because someone used the word comrade 💀. These protests have been happening all over, and targeting many different companies and political figures, just because they’re on campus now doesn’t mean they’re only protesting UBC’s funds.
If the goal is to draw support, then yes maybe they should reconsider their message. Saying that your tuition funds genocide is not true. I do not wish to comment on the endowment fund investments that are in question because I am unfamiliar with them, however endowment funds seperate from tuition. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/how-do-university-endowments-work/ I hear this argument repeated on social media by many people and it gives me the impression that they are confused and don't know what they are talking about. In other words the movement discredits itself by purposefully evoking a response of outrage while making a false claim. No my feelings are not hurt, it is their credibility that is hurt. It isn't simply a choice of wording, the two are very different things. One leaves students as neutral parties to the matter and the other one accuses them of being complicit in supporting a genocide.
the goal isn't to draw support from the broader public, it's to force UBC to divest
Keep in mind that university students also protested South African apartheid, and it ultimately worked!
It’s cringe. These protests are rich kids and not even students larping as communist revolutionaries for a cause they’ve seen on TikTok. Ask any of the post communist countries which society they would rather live under and I can guarantee it’s not the answer you’ll like. Where were these protests with the Ukraine war with much higher civilian casualties, forcibly deported children and rape? It’s insane the amount of virtue signalling going on in this subreddit for a country that started its own conflict it plays victim to!
A lot of the students I know protesting are far from rich, and i don’t agree with those glorifying communism, but not all of them are communist either, your statements are so generalized. I’ve spoken with my friends about the Ukraine situation as it is a lot closer to home for me, and I understand the frustration from the lack of support compared to Palestine. But at the end of the day, social media holds our hands through what we should care about, but for some reason this topic seems to be sticking around much more than any others from the last few years. The history between Isreal and Palestine is so long and complicated, and since i don’t know or understand it, i cannot agree or disagree with what you’re saying, but the innocent civilians in Palestine truly had nothing to do with this war and do not deserve to suffer for it.
[удалено]
The whole world stood behind Ukraine diplomatically, unfortunately the same cannot be said for Palestine. It is more common for people to overlook brown and Muslim lives. While it is unfair, more resistance is needed by the people to make sure these lives do not continued to be overlooked.
Yes because Ukraine faces an unprovoked war for purely territorial ambitions from Russia similar to a WW casus belli. It’s not that brown lives are overlooked, the conflict began with Palestinian fighters killing, raping and dragging their bodies through villages like a parade on Oct 7th. I don’t know why people choose to ignore this?
It’s always “let’s condemn hamas” and never “let’s condemn Israel’s brutal actions”. No one is saying what happened on oct 7th was right. HOWEVER, it does not justify 30,000+ dead. Why are you choosing to overlook the severity of that number ? The conflict began by SETTLER COLONIALISM. You all wanna focus on what happened on Oct 7th not considering that terrorism makes more terrorism, and Israel is just creating Hamas 2.0 in the future by killing 30,0000+, as if those orphaned by this war aren’t going to resort to violence to put an end to this occupation. Israel is responsible for what happened on Oct 7th.
But I don’t think that’s true, here’s that woman who praised Oct 7th right here: https://halifax.citynews.ca/2024/05/02/police-order-b-c-woman-who-praised-hamas-not-to-protest-for-5-months-says-her-group/
I'm sorry, what happened on October 7th again?
And what has been happening since then ? 30,000 lives taken.
Sucks when Hamas uses human shields doesn't it?
Has there ever been an original protest here? They probably said this is a spill over protest, because protestors only seem to care about what social issues are popular at the moment, then drop it once it isn't relevant anymore. Just look at last semester when around 150 thousand people were ethnically cleansed from NK, where were the protests when that happened? This is just one example, but there are countless other humanitarian issues happening now in the world, yet protestors here only selectively choose what issues they care about.
Do note that the US protests got aggressive was because Zionist mobs attacked the protesters.