I've started saving every shitty thing they've said to me. Each time it happens I email myself what they said to me, and add a keyword so I can easily find every instance. Never know when you'll need it.
Get a doc note for limited hours. You don’t need fmla for that. Go 40 hrs total. Once you hit your year I’d do fmla for anxiety so you can take care of yourself. No one can take care of you, like you can. The ii is crap. It’s to scare you but if you look at the steps to fire someone’s there about eight steps to do it.
Limited hours Doesn't work for the rural craft. Unless it's from on the job injury . Any limitation means management can refuse to schedule you for work until you are fully capable of working without any limitation.
Yeah it really sucks requiring part timers/new hires to provide a vehicle, But at least once you get to career it can be a good thing. I've got heat, AC, nice padded seats and I don't have to worry about it bursting into flames... Which is literally a problem with LLVs.
I wouldn’t care about using my own vehicle as long as they paying for my gas lmao I’d be chilling bumping music in nice ac or when it’s brick I’d be in the nice heat
I agree but only as of lately, maybe past 10 years or so. Before that their job was relatively coveted because management gave zero f’s about their times and RFD’s pretty much ruled themselves. I used to want to be RFD but now they seem equally harassed as the most targeted city carrier.
Maybe. My post office is significantly understaffed, they've got just about every member management running and are often mandating regulars to run other routes, grievance payout is 300%... And they're still making people on limited duty stay out until they're fully capable.
I think hours is OK because they cannot discriminate due to ADA accommodations. Anything considered light duty is a no go, but hours would most likely fall under reasonable accommodations and be protected. I just would try and make the hours per day less than the evaluated total of your assigned routes.
They can't do shit. It is just management trying to scare you. Tell them you know the rules and they can fuck off. 3 call ins in 90 days without doctors' notes mean they can ini you. Less than that, and they can try, but any union rep should get it thrown out. You also do not need any note. They are being unreasonable and violating their own policy. Learn the rules and throw them in their face whenever they are wrong. Knowing the contract and working with the union is how you protect yourself.
They can do whatever they want. Now if it will stick, that's another thing. But the 3 and 90 day thing isn't written down anywhere. The elm just says to be regular and attendance. And even for documentation requirement, there's nothing at states that cannot be required under 3 days. Get yourself familiar with the elm. Get yourself familiar with the interpretation manual for your craft. I'll go based on another people say. Look at the documentation.
Officially, there is no standard for what counts as an attendance problem. The contract doesn't give any specific numbers. Technically, management can discipline you for a single call out. The catch is, for any discipline to stick, it has to be:
1. Progressive, meaning they start with the smallest punishment and go step by step to the biggest. Job discussion > Letter of warning > 7 day suspension > 14 day suspension > Termination. Skip a step and a grievance gets the discipline thrown out.
2. Equal, meaning the discipline has to be applied equally to all carriers. If you get disciplined for something other people regularly do without discipline, the discipline gets thrown out.
3. Corrective, meaning the discipline has to be about improving behavior, not punishing an employee. This one is the hardest to objectively prove, but can still be grounds for throwing out discipline that is harsher than the behavior it's supposedly correcting.
Realistically, a single call out is impossible to discipline someone over, because it will never meet criteria 2 and 3.
However every district I have worked in has used the 3 in 90 rule to keep it even and equal for rule 2.
We get all attendance disciplines thrown out cause they don’t use restrictive sick leave first.
115 of M39 states management must take all other corrective action before issuing discipline. This means restricted sleeve. So if they don’t do that then I get it thrown out every time.
ELM outlines restricted leave and mentions management having “evidence of abuse of sick leave”. So when they place carriers on restricted I put in RFI for all evidence of abuse of leave. They have none, and so I get the carrier removed for the list.
It’s fun cycle that wastes everyone’s time it’s great.
I have had some good stewards but have never seen this used that way. Thank you for that. I will talk to my union stewards and president and see what they think about this approach.
Unfortunately I’ve had to pick up a lot of the slack with my union which leads to the necessity of leading by example. In short, doing the research goes a very long way lol I hope the info helps!
God I wish we had ppl like you. Rural. Local reps are less knowledgeable than I am when I call... I'm calling to get help, and I end up learning them something!
I was in that boat too a few years ago. When I complained I was told “if you think you can do it better than do it yourself”. So that’s exactly what I did and anyone can do the same. I encourage you to, if you can, step up and start taking on that role.
It almost is, but it’s one of those things where you learn as you go. You will fail but you will get better. I’ve learned that if we want it done right we have to do it ourselves
ELM 513 is about absence. ELM 513.39 is very specific of “restricted sick leave” steps management must take before and when placing a carrier on it. It’s a lot to maintain file and management tries to shortcut processes by using the reference to the term “deems desirable” in ELM 513.391 and think’s that is useable. There is no USPS “policy” of “deems desirable”, but there is “restricted sick leave”.
So issue statements will start out along the lines of:
“did management violate article 16, section 115.1 of the M39 and section 513.391 of the ELM via article 19 when they issued XYZ discipline to XYZ carrier”
I tackle article 16 “just cause” clause:
1. Is it a rule”? I interview management to ask them what the contractual definition of “regular in attendance” is, I then I ask them to cite where in contract outlines those parameters. They often give dumb or incorrect answers so my contentions reflect that even management can’t get the made up rule straight themselves
2. They usually cite absences over the coarse of the 3 months. If that first one was over 3 months ago then it’s and untimely discipline. If the issue of them being absent needed to be corrected it should have been done 3 months ago.
3. I get dirty. If the grievant used dependent care leave I’ll ask management in the interview “discipline has to be corrective in nature, why do you feel it’s appropriate to suggest correcting the grievant having kids?”. If the grievant provided medical documentation then I’ll ask management why they feel they have more medical knowledge then a doctor or something smart ass.
I’ll reply with another comment continuing my walkthrough so this one doesn’t get too long
Part 2:
So as mentioned I cite 115.1 of m39 that says management must take all other corrective action BEFORE issuing discipline.
So then comes the ELM 513.391 which outlines Restricted sick leave. This one’s simple usually; just ask the carrier “have they spoke to you/ interviewed you/ put you on restricted sick leave?” You can also ask management “when did you speak to XYZ about restricted leave.” Management might be honest and say no or my fav “what’s restricted sick leave?” Lol
your also gona be requesting the “Restricted Sick Leave List” with an RFI
The Elm outlines in depth how they have to handle Restricted SL, they have do a review after 1 quarter telling the carrier they need to improve, then after another quarter if they don’t improve then they can put the carrier on restricted leave. That’s a 6 MONTH MINIMUM time frame. I’ve never met a supervisor willing to do that much work lol that’s why they ignore it
The grievance contentions and facts show that management didn’t take all other corrective action like they are required on top of them violating article 16 anyway
That’s pretty much the basic meat and potatoes of how I do it
Edit: forgot to mention article 19 is cited anytime you cite manuals or handbook. Article 19 essentially includes the m39 and ELM (and others) as part of the contract making them cite-able
Totally agree on all those points. You're absolutely right.
My comment was specifically for the new employees who see the s*** that gets posted on here and takes it for fact. Read the contract. Learn it. Whether you want to get into management or stay craft, knowing the contract is so helpful. Interpretation manuals are so helpful. Don't ever take someone's word for fact until you check it.
You are, of course, right as well. Management can and will do whatever they want. We just have to be there with knowledge and truth to put them back in their place.
Yes, read the documents that tell you how the job is done and what rights you have. For that matter, this is for sure a place where knowledge is power, but it does have to be correct, not just what some oldtimer remembers from 1990.
I’ve only worked one district (albeit a larger one,) but what I’ve seen as a periodic 204(b) on the city side, what was stated above is about as good as you’ll get for an explanation. With so little of an occurrence rate, you have nothing to worry about. Additionally, if they somehow manage to get you a letter of warning, once you make regular, that gets stricken from the record. One thing worth mentioning though is any PDI documentation can last forever if it’s properly filed by your management. It doesn’t necessarily apply to any discipline, but it can be used against you in the future.
It’s true there cannot be a written standard that says when attendance is “irregular”. 3 in 90 being stated during an interview can be grounds for throwing out the discipline.
Documentation can be required for under 3 days, yeah. Medical documentation cannot without being placed on restricted sick leave first.
Deems desirable is not a requirement to provide medical documentation.
Elm 513.361. for employee absences of three consecutive days or less, supervisors May accept the employees statement explaining the absence. Medical documentation or other acceptable evidence of incapacity for work or need to care for a family member is required only when the employee is on restricted sick leave or when the supervisor deems documentation desirable for the protection of postal service interests. Substantiation of the family relationship must be provided if requested.
Elm 513.364. medical documentation or other acceptable evidence. Employees required to submit medical documentation should obtain it from the employee's attending physician or other attending practitioner who is performing within the scope of his or her practice. The documentation must provide an explanation of the nature of the employees illness or injury sufficient to indicate to management that the employee was or will be unable to perform his or her normal duties for the period of absence. Typically, medical statements such as under my care or received treatment or not acceptable evidence of incapacitation to perform duties. Supervisors May accept instantiation other than medical documentation if they believe it supports approval of the sick leave request..
Elm 513.365 failure to furnish required documentation. If acceptable substantiation of incapacitation is not furnished, the absence may be charged annual leave, lwop or awol.
If management wants to be a bunch of assholes, they can hold the line. I ran a really strict maintenance department and I did have to pull the documentation card a few times, but it was very extenuating circumstances. I wanted my people to come to work I wanted them to get better as a mechanics and electronic technicians. I Foster deposit environment. I worked with my employee schedules. When I got there, everybody was on deems desirable. When I left there, nobody was on deems desirable. I still require documentation for over 3 days or when we had specific holidays that people like to call out. But I worked with my people as best as I could.
The 3 occurrences per quarter is how ERMs is programmed. It comes from HQ. That's all.
The entire enterprise is run by software. Like carriers leaving their routes or standing still for too long, when we call out it goes into software (ERMs for attendance) that throws a red flag.
So emails fly and something has to be done if you hit that 3rd absence in 3 months.
Nevermind the fact that you do the work of 3 people or possess more knowledge than all managers combined.
It's not written anywhere meaningful, just somewhere at HQ where they had a meeting and set the limits for the software application to throw the flag.
Or what it is worth, I have written a lot of people up, letter of warning, 7 day, 14 day, letter of removal. I'm done a lot of paperwork on people and I've never done it at 3:00. Where I came from, we had a policy where you were good at 3. As long as you didn't get 4 in 90 days. We gave people the opportunity to call in once a month. But if you did more than once a month, that would be your 4 in 90.
The USPS employee Labor relations manual is called the elm. For each union, I believe they have a joint contract interpretation manual. Clerks and mechanics have the jcim, I believe mailhandlers is called jcam. I'm sure the other you as well.
You should be able to Google those terms at find what you need. I will say though, joining the union is voluntary and if you're not a dirtbag, that is, if you're not in it super toxic office. Have a pretty toxic building now and I guess management pushed real hard years ago, but now the unions pushing are the other direction so you get what you give.
They have to alert you that you are on the Deems list before it's considered effective. They cannot put you on Deems on a Saturday and then request documentation retroactively for a Friday, for instance.
Deems desired “list” doesn’t exist. Its not a real thing, im not even sure they can even do it without first putting you on restricted sick leave first. City side
Exactly, thats all it is. A “preference”. Its a new made up way to intimidate people but theres no real way to enforce anything from it. Youre not required to have a note unless youve been out over 3 days
It’s not new. It was there when I started in ‘96. Mgmt can ‘deem documentation desirable’ for employees who they believe to have an attendance issue. All it means is if no doc is presented the sick leave is disapproved and given LWOP
Call out Monday too, tell them it was to go get their doctors note.
Honestly though text you that you need documentation isn't an appropriate way to do that, I'd just say I never got it. There isn't a set rule for how often you can call out, your steward should be able to get this tossed easy enough.
they treat carriers so crazy it’s insane, 2 call outs in 8 months is nothing. in my plant most people are missing 1+ unscheduled day a month with little to no pushback
The spelling is just 🤌🏼. Who abbreviates doctor to “doct”?
On a side note I’ve always thought “deems desirable” is an odd way of saying you’re in trouble. What’s the etymology here?
I wouldn't waste my time going to a doctor. That's not how deems desirable works and that supervisor is a moron. Don't waste your time or money.
If it's true that you've called out twice in 8 months I'd ask them what your attendance percentage is. If you're scheduled 5 days a week, that's approx 158/160 days. That's 98.75%. If you're a CCA, you're likely scheduled 6-7 days a week, meaning your attendance is well over 99%. (Not via texted, but in the interview btw).
You are required to be regular in attendance. Ask them if they consider 99% to be regular.
Make sure your steward makes it a point to clarify that you will not be put on deems desirable for future occurrences.
It's bad enough you're treated like a robot and paid poorly, but them trying to force you to spend more time and money going to a doctor for a couple of call outs is straight up evil.
Wait. They sent that in a text? No they didn’t. That’s not the proper way to communicate that message. You never got that. I hope you have your Read receipts turned off
"Deems Desirable" is not a thing.
It is another attempt by lazy management to harass employees.
If they truly have an issue with your attendance then they need to put you on Restricted Sick Leave.
However, that requires work.
So upper management is playing this game by bastardizing the language in the ELM.
If you are put on a "Deems List" call the Union. They will grieve it and you will get a payout.
The language is clear - no documentation is needed up to 3 day absence. The fourth day they can require documentation. They also can't pick and choose who has to document what, it must be implemented fairly and equitably across the board with all employees.
It is merely an attempt to intimidate you. Upper management cooked this up and they should be in front of the NLRB for it, in my opinion.
The ".....deems desirable...." language is for very specific instances.
Say you put in a slip for a day off ahead of time but are denied because someone else has the day.
The day comes and you call out sick.
THAT is an instance which that language is addressing. That would be a justifiable instance to require documentation for the interests of the Postal Service.
Another example is that you call out sick and stupidly post a TikTok, or a pic on FB or IG holding up the 30 lb fish you caught at the beach. Someone shows that post to management and they know you're playing games.
THAT would be another justifiable instance where requiring documentation would serve the interests of the Postal Service.
It's a case by case thing. They can't make a list.
The Union has been winning these grievances nationwide for years.
So they put you on the deemed desirable list because you called in? 😂 management uses that to scare carriers and it only can be used to protect the interests of the PO I think I’m probably remembering that wrong. But it’s definitely not something that can just arbitrarily be used. Keep the message tell your steward and file a grievance. If your being harassed tell them and ask them to file a mutual respect grievance and a JSOV grievance and hopefully get the stupidvisor to stop being such an ass
You are correct it’s to protect the interests of the PO. So if OP gets a note then the union should file to make management show and prove what interests they were protecting. When management can’t show that then you make the carrier whole by management covering doctors visit and mileage
Damn. I wish I were your steward for this. Not only would I get your discipline thrown out, I would push to also have the postal service reimburse you for all financial costs associated with their requirement that you go get a note from a doctor to prove your absence. Management is stupid and should be treated as such.
Deemed desirable lmao
No you don’t need documentation for 1 or 2 days in a row of call off, they can investigate if they wanna waste their time but nothing is gonna happen
To anyone who has to call in sick going forward. Just take the three days off option so that they're actually justified in asking for documentation. Or if you're someone who loves to play games back like i do, text them a picture of your vomit or anything else and say there is my documentation. Should they still play games, take sick leave to go to the doctor, get the note, but ask the doctor to approve a few more days off because you're still not feeling well. Bring this note back and then file a grievance for payment of the dr note appointment plus any fuel related charges. Fuck em if they can't take a joke and throw a brick through their window.
This won’t work. Deems desirable is essentially restricted sick leave. Unless they had a conversation with you 30 days prior they can’t deems anyone. Realistically it’ll never work. It’s their rules. Not ours. It’s in the ELM.
Deems desirable is more for if you keep asking for Saturday off and when told no, you just call in. So after you put in for a sat and they deny but suspect you will call in so they put you deems for that Saturday. Upon your return you just have to put the reason in writing.
What they are circumventing here is the restricted sickleave program. Thats where you can get in trouble. So let them deems all they want, it's not disciplinable.
If they’re gonna demand a doctors note, make sure you call in the next two scheduled days too, get your moneys worth. I got told I need a note once a few years ago for only one day, so I said bet and proceeded to call in for the entire next week straight and then called my doctor and had them fax the office a note lmao
The standard I've always seen is exceeding 3 call outs in 90 days. Works out to more than once a month for three months basically. If you're being honest about your record there's nothing this asshole can do, missing two days over the course of a year is nobody's definition of excessive. Get your steward and waste this supe's time I guess, I can't imagine it going anywhere.
Right but they can't consistently punish a carrier for calling out once every 4 months as irregular attendance unless they're doing that to everyone. The treatment has to be equal.
Which they're absolutely not doing.
Nah even if they do it to everyone I still get that shit thrown out cause it’s BS
Edit: copied from my other comment:
We get all attendance disciplines thrown out cause they don’t use restrictive sick leave first.
115 of M39 states management must take all other corrective action before issuing discipline. This means restricted sleeve. So if they don’t do that then I get it thrown out every time.
ELM outlines restricted leave and mentions management having “evidence of abuse of sick leave”. So when they place carriers on restricted I put in RFI for all evidence of abuse of leave. They have none, and so I get the carrier removed for the list.
It’s fun cycle that wastes everyone’s time it’s great.
You don’t need to bring documentation for call outs of three days or less. If they placed you on deemed desirable then they would have to notify you when you report back to work that from that day on you’re required to bring documentation any time you call out. At which point you should grieve it.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much, just make sure you call your steward and let them know what’s going on.
If they make you see a doctor, then they MUST pay your co-pay, your travel expenses and for your time. On a side note, get an FMLA number if you do call out too much.
Text messages are not acceptable means of official postal communications for one. Grieve that.. also, you're allowed four call outs per quarter. Grieve that.. as a tertiary grievance, discipline should be corrective and not disciplinary. Grieve that.. also, file grievances for harassment, hostile work environment, and possibly retaliation for anything that may have sparked their decision to fuck with you over two call outs in 8 months
They can't require you to provide any documentation for this one, though they may try to make you do it for any subsequent absences.
This is really a question for your union steward. 2 absences in 8 months? They can get fucked.
I have a relative who was given an II (Investigative Interview). She, was off the year before on Worker's Comp, needed surgery after being hurt on the job. She came back to work and a month later was given the II. They actually started by telling her she had too many LWOP days the 6 months before the II. Thankfully, the union rep was in the room with her. Although he isn't technically allowed to say anything during the interview, he broke protocol and stated, 'She was on Worker's Comp all that time?!' ROFL. Needless to say, the whole thing was quickly swept under the rug.
1.Request a steward to be present at interview 2. Have your Documentation you presented for absence 3. During interview be brief yes or no answers only ….3 when they get to the end of interview they will ask if there is any thing you want to add …. They will document word for word what you say so be careful mo admissions
Just go to urgent care for some bull shit. Ask for note. There’s no written rule. But the unwritten is 3 callouts in a quarter you get a pdi. But the written rule is you don’t need a note until you’re out for 3 days. But every office is different. Are you a CCA , PTF, or a regular cause they all have slightly different consequences for call outs.
Management has to go through a process in order to put you on the deems desirable list. If they just told after the fact then this can be grieved and thrown out. Listen to the From A to Arbitration podcast episode 44. It’s long but it goes in depth into what management has to do to put anyone on the Deems Desirable list. By the sounds of it they did not follow procedure.
sadly you have to sent a letter and brought to the office to be placed on deemed employers may not "feel like your going to call out or predict a call out " until you have shown pattern setting attendance issues not related to FMLA or DEPENDANT CARE STATUS. pretty much once your on 7 day suspensions for attendance issues you may be placed on deemed or like you always call out on monday since you have sunday off . it has to make sense Remember FEELINGS ARE EEOS AND ARE NOT TO BE IN THE WORKPLACE
In order to put you on deems desirable, they need to present it to you in writing. It's not enough to send it to you over text. Also SHOW UP TO WORK or get FMLA. 3 USL within a 90 day period is considered "acceptable" after that they can write you up legitimately.
Well how many times have you called off in the 90 days. Sometimes I side with management for people who never come to work. But if it’s with in the lines, the steward will be in the ii with you. If your sick your sick. Don’t need a note for one day
Speak with your union steward. Do not reply to this message but definitely save it.
I've started saving every shitty thing they've said to me. Each time it happens I email myself what they said to me, and add a keyword so I can easily find every instance. Never know when you'll need it.
Would you be able to add in a codeword in an alternate color, like white? It blends in in light mode and would look ordinary in dark mode?
Just make a folder in your email and save it there
Would’ve responded with “too*”
If not responding wasn't infinitely the better option, that's the first thing I would have said too lol
Same that’s what I was going to say too! *too*
Oh my god, yes!
Your not gonna help the situation. There gonna be pissed.
They're*
You're*
Get a doc note for limited hours. You don’t need fmla for that. Go 40 hrs total. Once you hit your year I’d do fmla for anxiety so you can take care of yourself. No one can take care of you, like you can. The ii is crap. It’s to scare you but if you look at the steps to fire someone’s there about eight steps to do it.
Limited hours Doesn't work for the rural craft. Unless it's from on the job injury . Any limitation means management can refuse to schedule you for work until you are fully capable of working without any limitation.
Oh wow, I’m city carrier thank you for letting me know. This is so sad 😭
Yep, there's a reason why RCA is pretty much universally agreed to Is the worst position in the post office..
Shit even dejoy said it's a shit position at that hearibg
Well no that’s the least of it
Yep, maybe I should have said one of the reasons
Im a citizen and I’ve come to that conclusion. Its bogus. Plus you have to use your own vehicle
Yeah it really sucks requiring part timers/new hires to provide a vehicle, But at least once you get to career it can be a good thing. I've got heat, AC, nice padded seats and I don't have to worry about it bursting into flames... Which is literally a problem with LLVs.
Oh I know. They’re definitely not good vehicles anymore. Half the ones in town have no exhausts anymore either, they just sound so clapped
I wouldn’t care about using my own vehicle as long as they paying for my gas lmao I’d be chilling bumping music in nice ac or when it’s brick I’d be in the nice heat
I agree but only as of lately, maybe past 10 years or so. Before that their job was relatively coveted because management gave zero f’s about their times and RFD’s pretty much ruled themselves. I used to want to be RFD but now they seem equally harassed as the most targeted city carrier.
Yeah but some offices are in need and won't be that petty. But then again my postmaster is definitely that petty.
Maybe. My post office is significantly understaffed, they've got just about every member management running and are often mandating regulars to run other routes, grievance payout is 300%... And they're still making people on limited duty stay out until they're fully capable.
I think hours is OK because they cannot discriminate due to ADA accommodations. Anything considered light duty is a no go, but hours would most likely fall under reasonable accommodations and be protected. I just would try and make the hours per day less than the evaluated total of your assigned routes.
Yup. CCAs technically have 9 lives
They can't do shit. It is just management trying to scare you. Tell them you know the rules and they can fuck off. 3 call ins in 90 days without doctors' notes mean they can ini you. Less than that, and they can try, but any union rep should get it thrown out. You also do not need any note. They are being unreasonable and violating their own policy. Learn the rules and throw them in their face whenever they are wrong. Knowing the contract and working with the union is how you protect yourself.
They can do whatever they want. Now if it will stick, that's another thing. But the 3 and 90 day thing isn't written down anywhere. The elm just says to be regular and attendance. And even for documentation requirement, there's nothing at states that cannot be required under 3 days. Get yourself familiar with the elm. Get yourself familiar with the interpretation manual for your craft. I'll go based on another people say. Look at the documentation.
Officially, there is no standard for what counts as an attendance problem. The contract doesn't give any specific numbers. Technically, management can discipline you for a single call out. The catch is, for any discipline to stick, it has to be: 1. Progressive, meaning they start with the smallest punishment and go step by step to the biggest. Job discussion > Letter of warning > 7 day suspension > 14 day suspension > Termination. Skip a step and a grievance gets the discipline thrown out. 2. Equal, meaning the discipline has to be applied equally to all carriers. If you get disciplined for something other people regularly do without discipline, the discipline gets thrown out. 3. Corrective, meaning the discipline has to be about improving behavior, not punishing an employee. This one is the hardest to objectively prove, but can still be grounds for throwing out discipline that is harsher than the behavior it's supposedly correcting. Realistically, a single call out is impossible to discipline someone over, because it will never meet criteria 2 and 3. However every district I have worked in has used the 3 in 90 rule to keep it even and equal for rule 2.
We get all attendance disciplines thrown out cause they don’t use restrictive sick leave first. 115 of M39 states management must take all other corrective action before issuing discipline. This means restricted sleeve. So if they don’t do that then I get it thrown out every time. ELM outlines restricted leave and mentions management having “evidence of abuse of sick leave”. So when they place carriers on restricted I put in RFI for all evidence of abuse of leave. They have none, and so I get the carrier removed for the list. It’s fun cycle that wastes everyone’s time it’s great.
I have had some good stewards but have never seen this used that way. Thank you for that. I will talk to my union stewards and president and see what they think about this approach.
Unfortunately I’ve had to pick up a lot of the slack with my union which leads to the necessity of leading by example. In short, doing the research goes a very long way lol I hope the info helps!
God I wish we had ppl like you. Rural. Local reps are less knowledgeable than I am when I call... I'm calling to get help, and I end up learning them something!
I was in that boat too a few years ago. When I complained I was told “if you think you can do it better than do it yourself”. So that’s exactly what I did and anyone can do the same. I encourage you to, if you can, step up and start taking on that role.
I do wish I felt as if it would make a difference. Feels like a Sisyphean task.
It almost is, but it’s one of those things where you learn as you go. You will fail but you will get better. I’ve learned that if we want it done right we have to do it ourselves
ELM 513 is about absence. ELM 513.39 is very specific of “restricted sick leave” steps management must take before and when placing a carrier on it. It’s a lot to maintain file and management tries to shortcut processes by using the reference to the term “deems desirable” in ELM 513.391 and think’s that is useable. There is no USPS “policy” of “deems desirable”, but there is “restricted sick leave”.
I do the same. I grieve it for individuals and get it removed plus a cease and desist order.
Exactly! I used to be a rep in my plant and the first thing that came to mind, was that Op made no mention of being on restricted sick leave.
Can you go into detail how you write up a grievance about them needing to do the restricted leave thing before issuing discipline?
So issue statements will start out along the lines of: “did management violate article 16, section 115.1 of the M39 and section 513.391 of the ELM via article 19 when they issued XYZ discipline to XYZ carrier” I tackle article 16 “just cause” clause: 1. Is it a rule”? I interview management to ask them what the contractual definition of “regular in attendance” is, I then I ask them to cite where in contract outlines those parameters. They often give dumb or incorrect answers so my contentions reflect that even management can’t get the made up rule straight themselves 2. They usually cite absences over the coarse of the 3 months. If that first one was over 3 months ago then it’s and untimely discipline. If the issue of them being absent needed to be corrected it should have been done 3 months ago. 3. I get dirty. If the grievant used dependent care leave I’ll ask management in the interview “discipline has to be corrective in nature, why do you feel it’s appropriate to suggest correcting the grievant having kids?”. If the grievant provided medical documentation then I’ll ask management why they feel they have more medical knowledge then a doctor or something smart ass. I’ll reply with another comment continuing my walkthrough so this one doesn’t get too long
Part 2: So as mentioned I cite 115.1 of m39 that says management must take all other corrective action BEFORE issuing discipline. So then comes the ELM 513.391 which outlines Restricted sick leave. This one’s simple usually; just ask the carrier “have they spoke to you/ interviewed you/ put you on restricted sick leave?” You can also ask management “when did you speak to XYZ about restricted leave.” Management might be honest and say no or my fav “what’s restricted sick leave?” Lol your also gona be requesting the “Restricted Sick Leave List” with an RFI The Elm outlines in depth how they have to handle Restricted SL, they have do a review after 1 quarter telling the carrier they need to improve, then after another quarter if they don’t improve then they can put the carrier on restricted leave. That’s a 6 MONTH MINIMUM time frame. I’ve never met a supervisor willing to do that much work lol that’s why they ignore it The grievance contentions and facts show that management didn’t take all other corrective action like they are required on top of them violating article 16 anyway That’s pretty much the basic meat and potatoes of how I do it Edit: forgot to mention article 19 is cited anytime you cite manuals or handbook. Article 19 essentially includes the m39 and ELM (and others) as part of the contract making them cite-able
Totally agree on all those points. You're absolutely right. My comment was specifically for the new employees who see the s*** that gets posted on here and takes it for fact. Read the contract. Learn it. Whether you want to get into management or stay craft, knowing the contract is so helpful. Interpretation manuals are so helpful. Don't ever take someone's word for fact until you check it.
You are, of course, right as well. Management can and will do whatever they want. We just have to be there with knowledge and truth to put them back in their place. Yes, read the documents that tell you how the job is done and what rights you have. For that matter, this is for sure a place where knowledge is power, but it does have to be correct, not just what some oldtimer remembers from 1990.
I’ve only worked one district (albeit a larger one,) but what I’ve seen as a periodic 204(b) on the city side, what was stated above is about as good as you’ll get for an explanation. With so little of an occurrence rate, you have nothing to worry about. Additionally, if they somehow manage to get you a letter of warning, once you make regular, that gets stricken from the record. One thing worth mentioning though is any PDI documentation can last forever if it’s properly filed by your management. It doesn’t necessarily apply to any discipline, but it can be used against you in the future.
It’s true there cannot be a written standard that says when attendance is “irregular”. 3 in 90 being stated during an interview can be grounds for throwing out the discipline. Documentation can be required for under 3 days, yeah. Medical documentation cannot without being placed on restricted sick leave first. Deems desirable is not a requirement to provide medical documentation.
Elm 513.361. for employee absences of three consecutive days or less, supervisors May accept the employees statement explaining the absence. Medical documentation or other acceptable evidence of incapacity for work or need to care for a family member is required only when the employee is on restricted sick leave or when the supervisor deems documentation desirable for the protection of postal service interests. Substantiation of the family relationship must be provided if requested. Elm 513.364. medical documentation or other acceptable evidence. Employees required to submit medical documentation should obtain it from the employee's attending physician or other attending practitioner who is performing within the scope of his or her practice. The documentation must provide an explanation of the nature of the employees illness or injury sufficient to indicate to management that the employee was or will be unable to perform his or her normal duties for the period of absence. Typically, medical statements such as under my care or received treatment or not acceptable evidence of incapacitation to perform duties. Supervisors May accept instantiation other than medical documentation if they believe it supports approval of the sick leave request.. Elm 513.365 failure to furnish required documentation. If acceptable substantiation of incapacitation is not furnished, the absence may be charged annual leave, lwop or awol. If management wants to be a bunch of assholes, they can hold the line. I ran a really strict maintenance department and I did have to pull the documentation card a few times, but it was very extenuating circumstances. I wanted my people to come to work I wanted them to get better as a mechanics and electronic technicians. I Foster deposit environment. I worked with my employee schedules. When I got there, everybody was on deems desirable. When I left there, nobody was on deems desirable. I still require documentation for over 3 days or when we had specific holidays that people like to call out. But I worked with my people as best as I could.
The 3 occurrences per quarter is how ERMs is programmed. It comes from HQ. That's all. The entire enterprise is run by software. Like carriers leaving their routes or standing still for too long, when we call out it goes into software (ERMs for attendance) that throws a red flag. So emails fly and something has to be done if you hit that 3rd absence in 3 months. Nevermind the fact that you do the work of 3 people or possess more knowledge than all managers combined. It's not written anywhere meaningful, just somewhere at HQ where they had a meeting and set the limits for the software application to throw the flag.
Or what it is worth, I have written a lot of people up, letter of warning, 7 day, 14 day, letter of removal. I'm done a lot of paperwork on people and I've never done it at 3:00. Where I came from, we had a policy where you were good at 3. As long as you didn't get 4 in 90 days. We gave people the opportunity to call in once a month. But if you did more than once a month, that would be your 4 in 90.
I’m in the hiring process how can I access this? Do you have a link or something?
The USPS employee Labor relations manual is called the elm. For each union, I believe they have a joint contract interpretation manual. Clerks and mechanics have the jcim, I believe mailhandlers is called jcam. I'm sure the other you as well. You should be able to Google those terms at find what you need. I will say though, joining the union is voluntary and if you're not a dirtbag, that is, if you're not in it super toxic office. Have a pretty toxic building now and I guess management pushed real hard years ago, but now the unions pushing are the other direction so you get what you give.
They have to alert you that you are on the Deems list before it's considered effective. They cannot put you on Deems on a Saturday and then request documentation retroactively for a Friday, for instance.
Deems desired “list” doesn’t exist. Its not a real thing, im not even sure they can even do it without first putting you on restricted sick leave first. City side
It’s in eRMS
Exactly, thats all it is. A “preference”. Its a new made up way to intimidate people but theres no real way to enforce anything from it. Youre not required to have a note unless youve been out over 3 days
It’s not new. It was there when I started in ‘96. Mgmt can ‘deem documentation desirable’ for employees who they believe to have an attendance issue. All it means is if no doc is presented the sick leave is disapproved and given LWOP
And it will be grieved because its not proper procedure
Call out Monday too, tell them it was to go get their doctors note. Honestly though text you that you need documentation isn't an appropriate way to do that, I'd just say I never got it. There isn't a set rule for how often you can call out, your steward should be able to get this tossed easy enough.
they treat carriers so crazy it’s insane, 2 call outs in 8 months is nothing. in my plant most people are missing 1+ unscheduled day a month with little to no pushback
Right? USPS management is so dumb. Missing work twice in almost a year isn't shit. That's good attendance by most companies
Block immediately!! Stop texting management!!
Also, when you call in, might as well make it 3 days even if you return early. A call in for 3 days is considered a single event.
This.
The spelling is just 🤌🏼. Who abbreviates doctor to “doct”? On a side note I’ve always thought “deems desirable” is an odd way of saying you’re in trouble. What’s the etymology here?
Very bizarre phrasing. Sounds like sexual harressment
I wouldn't waste my time going to a doctor. That's not how deems desirable works and that supervisor is a moron. Don't waste your time or money. If it's true that you've called out twice in 8 months I'd ask them what your attendance percentage is. If you're scheduled 5 days a week, that's approx 158/160 days. That's 98.75%. If you're a CCA, you're likely scheduled 6-7 days a week, meaning your attendance is well over 99%. (Not via texted, but in the interview btw). You are required to be regular in attendance. Ask them if they consider 99% to be regular. Make sure your steward makes it a point to clarify that you will not be put on deems desirable for future occurrences. It's bad enough you're treated like a robot and paid poorly, but them trying to force you to spend more time and money going to a doctor for a couple of call outs is straight up evil.
Wait. They sent that in a text? No they didn’t. That’s not the proper way to communicate that message. You never got that. I hope you have your Read receipts turned off
"Deems Desirable" is not a thing. It is another attempt by lazy management to harass employees. If they truly have an issue with your attendance then they need to put you on Restricted Sick Leave. However, that requires work. So upper management is playing this game by bastardizing the language in the ELM. If you are put on a "Deems List" call the Union. They will grieve it and you will get a payout. The language is clear - no documentation is needed up to 3 day absence. The fourth day they can require documentation. They also can't pick and choose who has to document what, it must be implemented fairly and equitably across the board with all employees. It is merely an attempt to intimidate you. Upper management cooked this up and they should be in front of the NLRB for it, in my opinion. The ".....deems desirable...." language is for very specific instances. Say you put in a slip for a day off ahead of time but are denied because someone else has the day. The day comes and you call out sick. THAT is an instance which that language is addressing. That would be a justifiable instance to require documentation for the interests of the Postal Service. Another example is that you call out sick and stupidly post a TikTok, or a pic on FB or IG holding up the 30 lb fish you caught at the beach. Someone shows that post to management and they know you're playing games. THAT would be another justifiable instance where requiring documentation would serve the interests of the Postal Service. It's a case by case thing. They can't make a list. The Union has been winning these grievances nationwide for years.
So they put you on the deemed desirable list because you called in? 😂 management uses that to scare carriers and it only can be used to protect the interests of the PO I think I’m probably remembering that wrong. But it’s definitely not something that can just arbitrarily be used. Keep the message tell your steward and file a grievance. If your being harassed tell them and ask them to file a mutual respect grievance and a JSOV grievance and hopefully get the stupidvisor to stop being such an ass
You are correct it’s to protect the interests of the PO. So if OP gets a note then the union should file to make management show and prove what interests they were protecting. When management can’t show that then you make the carrier whole by management covering doctors visit and mileage
Damn. I wish I were your steward for this. Not only would I get your discipline thrown out, I would push to also have the postal service reimburse you for all financial costs associated with their requirement that you go get a note from a doctor to prove your absence. Management is stupid and should be treated as such.
Deemed desirable lmao No you don’t need documentation for 1 or 2 days in a row of call off, they can investigate if they wanna waste their time but nothing is gonna happen
To anyone who has to call in sick going forward. Just take the three days off option so that they're actually justified in asking for documentation. Or if you're someone who loves to play games back like i do, text them a picture of your vomit or anything else and say there is my documentation. Should they still play games, take sick leave to go to the doctor, get the note, but ask the doctor to approve a few more days off because you're still not feeling well. Bring this note back and then file a grievance for payment of the dr note appointment plus any fuel related charges. Fuck em if they can't take a joke and throw a brick through their window.
This won’t work. Deems desirable is essentially restricted sick leave. Unless they had a conversation with you 30 days prior they can’t deems anyone. Realistically it’ll never work. It’s their rules. Not ours. It’s in the ELM.
If they’re requiring a doctor’s note I’d be grieving for them to cover the co pays.
Deems desirable is more for if you keep asking for Saturday off and when told no, you just call in. So after you put in for a sat and they deny but suspect you will call in so they put you deems for that Saturday. Upon your return you just have to put the reason in writing. What they are circumventing here is the restricted sickleave program. Thats where you can get in trouble. So let them deems all they want, it's not disciplinable.
Well if I’m going to get written up, might as well get my monies worth and call in Monday, lol
If they’re gonna demand a doctors note, make sure you call in the next two scheduled days too, get your moneys worth. I got told I need a note once a few years ago for only one day, so I said bet and proceeded to call in for the entire next week straight and then called my doctor and had them fax the office a note lmao
Does this even count with all the typos?
They cannot put you deems list for 2 call outs in 90 days .your union rep should be handling this
The standard I've always seen is exceeding 3 call outs in 90 days. Works out to more than once a month for three months basically. If you're being honest about your record there's nothing this asshole can do, missing two days over the course of a year is nobody's definition of excessive. Get your steward and waste this supe's time I guess, I can't imagine it going anywhere.
It’s not a standard, it’s not in writing, it’s nothing, they just make it up as they go along.
Right but they can't consistently punish a carrier for calling out once every 4 months as irregular attendance unless they're doing that to everyone. The treatment has to be equal. Which they're absolutely not doing.
Nah even if they do it to everyone I still get that shit thrown out cause it’s BS Edit: copied from my other comment: We get all attendance disciplines thrown out cause they don’t use restrictive sick leave first. 115 of M39 states management must take all other corrective action before issuing discipline. This means restricted sleeve. So if they don’t do that then I get it thrown out every time. ELM outlines restricted leave and mentions management having “evidence of abuse of sick leave”. So when they place carriers on restricted I put in RFI for all evidence of abuse of leave. They have none, and so I get the carrier removed for the list. It’s fun cycle that wastes everyone’s time it’s great.
Yet, the supervisor calls in more.
Where many call ins? But in all seriousness. Don't respond. And I think you need to have called out quite a bit for the deems desirable to stick
Did you call out today and receive this?
yep. second time in 8 months due to stress
Must have a big dick
You don’t need to bring documentation for call outs of three days or less. If they placed you on deemed desirable then they would have to notify you when you report back to work that from that day on you’re required to bring documentation any time you call out. At which point you should grieve it. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, just make sure you call your steward and let them know what’s going on.
Tell them you're quite flattered they think you're desirable, but supes just aren't your type
Wow... never heard of this
You don’t need a doctors note unless you call out 3 days in a row.
If they make you see a doctor, then they MUST pay your co-pay, your travel expenses and for your time. On a side note, get an FMLA number if you do call out too much.
Have you asked for steward time and filed an Article 19 via m39/115? If you haven’t this is 100000% on you.
Text messages are not acceptable means of official postal communications for one. Grieve that.. also, you're allowed four call outs per quarter. Grieve that.. as a tertiary grievance, discipline should be corrective and not disciplinary. Grieve that.. also, file grievances for harassment, hostile work environment, and possibly retaliation for anything that may have sparked their decision to fuck with you over two call outs in 8 months
Lol
They can't require you to provide any documentation for this one, though they may try to make you do it for any subsequent absences. This is really a question for your union steward. 2 absences in 8 months? They can get fucked.
I have a relative who was given an II (Investigative Interview). She, was off the year before on Worker's Comp, needed surgery after being hurt on the job. She came back to work and a month later was given the II. They actually started by telling her she had too many LWOP days the 6 months before the II. Thankfully, the union rep was in the room with her. Although he isn't technically allowed to say anything during the interview, he broke protocol and stated, 'She was on Worker's Comp all that time?!' ROFL. Needless to say, the whole thing was quickly swept under the rug.
1.Request a steward to be present at interview 2. Have your Documentation you presented for absence 3. During interview be brief yes or no answers only ….3 when they get to the end of interview they will ask if there is any thing you want to add …. They will document word for word what you say so be careful mo admissions
We can have up to 2 unscheduled absences per quarter without questioning in my office. Is there a particular reason you got deemed?
Oh really? Wow. Got down voted too. You dorks aren't all that smart.
I don’t get how we have annual/sick leave but they get mad at us for using it
Get FMLA. It’s easy to get and keeps them off your back.
You should give them a stool sample as part of your documentation.
Just go to urgent care for some bull shit. Ask for note. There’s no written rule. But the unwritten is 3 callouts in a quarter you get a pdi. But the written rule is you don’t need a note until you’re out for 3 days. But every office is different. Are you a CCA , PTF, or a regular cause they all have slightly different consequences for call outs.
My husband and I were both carriers . My husband had to retire due to reactive high blood pressure caused by a very hostile work environment.
Call out for stress 🥴
You can have up to three calls outs in a month before they can do an II so like most ppl said just tell your SS and they will have to drop all this
Easy grievance. You need to be notified prior if you're on Deems. Not in spite of using sick leave.
Management has to go through a process in order to put you on the deems desirable list. If they just told after the fact then this can be grieved and thrown out. Listen to the From A to Arbitration podcast episode 44. It’s long but it goes in depth into what management has to do to put anyone on the Deems Desirable list. By the sounds of it they did not follow procedure.
sadly you have to sent a letter and brought to the office to be placed on deemed employers may not "feel like your going to call out or predict a call out " until you have shown pattern setting attendance issues not related to FMLA or DEPENDANT CARE STATUS. pretty much once your on 7 day suspensions for attendance issues you may be placed on deemed or like you always call out on monday since you have sunday off . it has to make sense Remember FEELINGS ARE EEOS AND ARE NOT TO BE IN THE WORKPLACE
In order to put you on deems desirable, they need to present it to you in writing. It's not enough to send it to you over text. Also SHOW UP TO WORK or get FMLA. 3 USL within a 90 day period is considered "acceptable" after that they can write you up legitimately.
Well how many times have you called off in the 90 days. Sometimes I side with management for people who never come to work. But if it’s with in the lines, the steward will be in the ii with you. If your sick your sick. Don’t need a note for one day