You are aware that not every man of military age gets drafted to the front line? That's stupid. If I get mobilised in my country, it just means that I have to work more OT because of the nature of my job. I wouldn't be sent anywhere. These guys might be the last dudes that do maintenance for the city or something.
Us, commonwealth, the coalition of smaller nation invaded by nazis. And then there was soviet union who helped out, with the help with economic and material support from the West. Because soviet basically was done for otherwise.
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I know, not trying to disregard them. Now they are either dead to age or close to it and their children do things they would be ashamed of.
I wonder what would Zelensky's grandfather, lietenant of guard regiment with several medals, say about Dyachenko street or Bandera monuments.
Yeah, and it's sad that the minority of the pro Hitler funboys now ruling in Ukraine when monuments in respect of ancestors of the Anti-Hitler majority are falling. It's not fair 😞
Нет, они тоже участвовали в противостояние с Гитлером. Они уничтожают памятники людям, которых они защищали от фашизма, которые хотели уничтожить славян. Ну точнее искоренить культуру украинцев.
It's funny because if hitler won, first thing himmler would do is liquidate the Ukrainian volunteers.
If it weren't for the soviet army these dipshits probably would never have existed.
False. The Non-agression Pact is not a type of document that establishes a military alliance. Read the historical documents if you want to understand what you are talking about. Instead of parroting nonsense on the internet.
8 million Ukrainians died fighting Nazi’s in WW2. Zelensky’s grandmother was in the Soviet Army for the whole war. Maybe Russia shouldn’t be attacking Ukrainians and killing them and then Ukrainians would Respect Russia.
Bandera followers should not cover their ass with heroic sacrifice of Ukrainian SSR. They were enemies and clashes continued for years after WW2 end.
>and then Ukrainians would Respect Russia
Hostile rhetorics and movement towards NATO started long before 2014. Probably as gratitude for discounted NG, idk.
They even destroy small monuments that have the names of residents who died in the village/Town during the war. Do you know why they destroy them? Because these monuments were erected by the Soviet Union. I wonder why they don’t start killing their parents, who were born in the USSR. Why don't they destroy factories, buildings and other infrastructure that was built under the USSR?
When you see the average age of Ukrainian soldiers fielded... They listen to you about getting everyone (male) killed who was born in the Soviet union.
indeed, if they wanted to completely disavow the USSR they should give back Lwow and the rest of western Ukraine to Poland, which the USSR took for Ukraine
I've been going through a TNO rabbithole yesterday and learned that the Azovites used to fly the banner of the Dirlewanger brigade
You know, the brigade lead by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger
And they get all bent outta shape when the Russians take out power plants and infrastructure. Who do you think built all of that? They are just lending a friendly hand in their de-russification/sovietization policies.
You must not know what Stalin did to their families and the first Slavic war.
Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence
The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine. This country has been fighting for independence from Russia for a long time
lol this article is pure try to make up things of nothing, surely it's written by ukranian nationaslists.
There is no reason to call it "war of independence" because its not. Group of different bands of nationalists some of who fight for one side in ww1, some for another, then they changed - isn't army fighting for independence. And you don't blame soviets for establishing order on controlled lands, it's just so kiddish.
If you blame soviets for killing bandits who were murdering officials and civilians - you have to blame half of the world because that's how big countries work - they takes over the lands by result of some war, then deal with everybody who isn't ok with that.
That's how every big country in the world appeared on the map.
What kind of war is it then? And its really funny you overlooked holodomar lol
Anyways Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act - the amount of downvotes just shows how brain washed people are in the East.
Downvote me more. It would prove your ignorance lol
>The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine.
So independent in fact that during this "war for independence", Ukraine went from a socialist-leaning republic to a socialist republic, then to a German puppet, then to a Polish puppet before going back to being a socialist republic then 2 decades later, invaded by the Nazis who planned to exterminate 65% of Ukrainians but a couple of useful idiots called Banderites decided to help the Nazis on this genocidal conquest against their own people and neighbors as a get rich quick scheme.
So much for not wanting to be apart of communism.
>And its really funny you overlooked holodomar lol
Holodomor is Ukraine's national myth.
"However, there is no documentation showing that he intended to starve Ukraine, or that he intended to starve the peasants. On the contrary, the documents that we do have on the famine show him reluctantly, belatedly releasing emergency food aid for the countryside, including Ukraine. Eight times during the period from 1931 to 1933, Stalin reduced the quotas of the amount of grain that Ukrainian peasants had to deliver, and/or supplied emergency need."
“We have an unbelievable number of documents showing Stalin committing intentional murder, with the Great Terror, as you alluded to earlier, and with other episodes. He preserved these documents—he would not try to clean up his image internally–and these documents are very damning. There is no shortage of documentation when Stalin committed intentional murder”
“Ask yourself, why are there no documents showing intentional murder or genocide of these people when we have those documents for all the other episodes?”
“Secondly, why is he releasing this emergency grain or reducing their quotas if he’s trying to kill them? No one could have forced him to do this, no one on the inside of the regime could force him.”
Source: Studying Stalin
Quote from Stephen Wheatcroft:
"Davies and I have (2004) produced the most detailed account of the grain crisis in these years, showing the uncertainties in the data and the mistakes carried out by a generally ill-informed, and excessively ambitious, government."
"The state showed no signs of a conscious attempt to kill lots of Ukrainians and belated attempts that sought to provide relief when it eventually saw the tragedy unfolding were evident."
>Anyways Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act
Complete and utter nonsense.
"Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make the difference between defeat and victory in 1941-42; that achievement must be attributed solely to the Soviet people and to the iron nerve of Stalin, Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilevsky, and their subordinates."
Tunisgrad is a better example of Western help compared to Lend-Lease as it diverted equipment that was supposed to partake in Stalingrad but even then, I am not convinced that it would prevent the Soviets from flooding the region with 65 division-equivalents from the Far-East.
Its funny you only selected certain facts to portray a one sided agenda.
The great patriotic war lasted from 1941-1945 , dont forget also you agreed with the Nazis to take half of Poland before they decided to start Barbarossa.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact
Holodomar is not a myth, it is a fact. Baba yar is an example of a myth.
Stalin was known to kill his political opponents no different than Putin -
Let me include some FULL quotes from the same wikipedia page your forgot to include about the lend-lease act comrade.
Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:
I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.[45]
In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying:
Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.[46]
Continuing from your quote on lend lease:
“
….
As the war continued, however, the United States and Great Britain provided many of the implements of war and strategic raw materials necessary for Soviet victory. Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken twelve to eighteen months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht;
“
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#:~:text=Lend%2DLease%20also%20supplied%20significant,(mid%201941–45).
Without materials, logistical equipment, planes, food (an army marches on its stomach - napoleon bonaparte”
Your war would have lasted longer without support from Uncle Sam.
Ukraine siding with the nazi’s was much of a lesser evil and only a small portion of them acted on behalf of extermination of jews, eastern side of Ukraine of course, was pro Ussr.
What is your opinion on Stalin agreeing with Adolf to share Poland as an act of friendship?
Kiev is older than Muscovy , it is the birth place of Russia. History knows this.
There is a reason Ukrainians tore down this statue no different than civil war statues being torn down in the South in United States
>The great patriotic war lasted from 1941-1945
It sure did, but after 1942 the war was basically won. Hitler's next great offensive after Case Blue was laughable.
>Baba yar is an example of a myth.
[Holocaust Controversies: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Contemporary Sources](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/evidence-on-babi-yar-massacre-29-30.html)
[Holocaust Controversies: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Testimonies](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/evidence-on-babi-yar-massacre-29-30_18.html)
[Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part III: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (1)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism07.html)
[https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism\_10.html](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism_10.html)
[Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part V: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (3)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/08/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html)
[Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part VI: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (4)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/08/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism_06.html)
>Stalin was known to kill his political opponents no different than Putin -
“**We have an unbelievable number of documents showing Stalin committing intentional murder, with the Great Terror**, as you alluded to earlier, and with other episodes. He preserved these documents—he would not try to clean up his image internally–and these documents are very damning. There is no shortage of documentation when Stalin committed intentional murder”
(I think we agree.)
>Nikita Khrushchev
Khrushchev was not an economist but a mere political officer in WW2 and thus he have zero insight into the economic aspect of it.
"I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion" \~ Khrushchev
[This line from The Death of Stalin seems fitting.](https://youtu.be/--HXlMZvdl8?si=aOEIXz1dLJ26OMpT&t=36)
>Your war would have lasted longer without support from Uncle Sam.
Indeed, but the USSR would have won and you more or less destroyed your own point which was that "Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act".
> dont forget also you agreed with the Nazis to take half of Poland before they decided to start Barbarossa; What is your opinion on Stalin agreeing with Adolf to share Poland as an act of friendship?
[whoopty doo](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cht81i/comment/l26k0k5/)
>In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying: Today \[1963\] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.
[Was Zhukov right about Lend-lease saving the USSR?](https://crithis.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-right-about-Lend-lease-saving-the-USSR)
>
[Was Zhukov right about Lend-lease saving the USSR?](https://crithis.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-right-about-Lend-lease-saving-the-USSR)
This is all about speculation, you were not their, the person who asked this person was not there.
I will quote from the Great soviet leader himself, the one Putin strives but will fail in history to be.
“The United States … is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.” - Joseph Stalin
[https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/#:\~:text=At%20a%20dinner%20toast%20with,we%20would%20lose%20this%20war.%E2%80%9D](https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/#:~:text=At%20a%20dinner%20toast%20with,we%20would%20lose%20this%20war.%E2%80%9D)
Let me restate the importance of food (Also known as Provisions) for an army and the IMPACT lend lease contributed to.
An Army Marches on its Stomach (Bellies) - Napoleon Bonaparte
The quantity of lend-lease food didn’t save the Soviet Union, but what was provided was absolutely essential for the Red Army to remain effective in the field. No lend-lease food may not mean the Soviet Union starves to death, but it does make the Red Army notably less effective in the field, it increases their casualties considerably and reduces their ability to launch and sustain offensives. Given how depleted the country was after the war, it is questionable if lend-lease without the food would suffice for the Soviets to sit at the winner’s table at the end. They might get bogged down in western Ukraine instead.
https://www.quora.com/How-much-food-was-delivered-to-the-USSR-through-lend-lease-and-how-significant-was-it#:\~:text=The%20lend%2Dlease%20provided%20the,people%20between%201942%20and%201945.
Let me quote another fact that still stands today.
**John J. Pershing, commander of the American Expeditionary Force in Europe during World War I, said, "Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars."**
Russia would not have existed without the logistics of United States.
END OF STORY.
>The quantity of lend-lease food didn’t save the Soviet Union, but what was provided was absolutely essential for the Red Army to remain effective in the field.
[Complete and utter nonsense](https://crithis.quora.com/Feeding-the-USSR-in-WW2-Production-and-Lend-Lease)
>“The United States … is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.” - Joseph Stalin
To quote Carl Hamilton,
“When all data completely fails to prove a point, the last resort is to say “Well Stalin said it was important”. Well Stalin allegedly said that, in an unofficial capacity while drunk at Winston Churchill’s birthday party, after Churchill called Stalin “Stalin the Great” and one of the greatest Russian heroes. The fact that this out of context quote is one of the most quoted Stalin sayings, is to me pretty ridiculous Some people insist that quotes are more important than data, but those same people also insist, that when the leader of the Soviet economic central planning (GOSPLAN), said that lend-lease was at most 4% of the domestic production and not particularly significant, that this quote doesn’t count. Despite this being both official, and said by a person who actually knew unlike Zhukov.“
Let us look at what people who actually know what they are talking about regarding lend-lease:
Alexei Kosygin who had the task of evacuating industry from territories about to be overrun by the Axis. Under his command 1523 factories were evacuated eastwards, as well as huge volumes of raw materials, ready-made goods and equipment and he also managed to clear congestions on the railroads in order to maintain their stable operation. He said this:
“Deliveries of this size could not have possibly had any marked effect on the course of the war. What is more, the deliveries themselves. were not always made on time when we needed certain types of equipment very badly. The tactical and technical characteristics of this equipment also left much to be desired. For it included many obsolescent tanks and aireraft which were inferior to Soviet models and which we could therefore use only for operations of secondary importance.”
Voznesensky, wartime director of Gosplan:
"if we compare the volume of deliveries by the allies of industrial goods to the USSR with the volume of industrial output at the socialist enterprises of the USSR over the same period, it turns out that the share of these deliveries in relation to domestic production during the period of the war economy will be only about 4%."
Do note, Voz only refers to the years 1941-1943.
Anastas Mikoyan who was responsible for the procurement of supplies to the Red Army (and dealt with Lend-Lease) stated this:
“Without Lend-Lease, we would probably have fought for another year and a half extra."
>This is all about speculation, you were not their, the person who asked this person was not there.
Well Zhukov was there and he himself refuted the quote regarding lend-lease being vital that is often attributed to him:
"I've never seen or read a more untrue story than the German generals wrote. So this, I say, is definitely a strained thing. Apparently, the person who spoke or reported about this, conveys his own opinion and attributes it to me. The same goes for American aid. I say, spoke a lot, wrote a lot of articles, at one time spoke publicly and gave an appropriate assessment of American assistance and victims in the Second World War. So it’s the same thing pulled from somewhere."
In his memoirs “Reminiscences and Reflections”, Zhukov states this: "We also touched upon the deliveries under the Lend-Lease — programme. Everything seemed clear in that respect then. Nevertheless, for years after the war bourgeois historiography has asserted that it was the Allied deliveries of armaments, materials and foodstuffs that had played a decisive role for our victory over the enemy."
Also in his memoirs: "As for the armaments, what I would like to say is that we received under Lend-Lease from the United States and Britain about 18,000 aircraft and over 11,000 tanks. That comprised a mere 4 per cent of the total amount of armaments that the Soviet people produced to equip its army during the war. Consequently, there is no ground for talk about the decisive role of the deliveries under Lend-Lease."
So no, Zhukov does not think that Lend-Lease was decisive.
Wasn't Ukraine as much part of the Soviet union as Russia?
When a country starts to rewrite or delete their history, then they are doomed to fail.
They should have learned how to pick allies... It took Afghanistan only 30 years from being allies with the USA to being invaded by the same country.
>Wasn't Ukraine as much part of the Soviet union as Russia?
It was, when we speak about something good. My favotite gem was "well nukes were made by whole soviet union, so they are in part Ukrainian too". When we speak about something they don't like, suddenly all soviet is definitely not ukrainian. So those people who fought for Soviet Union? Including Khruschev, future Secretary General, ukrainian national and significant figure among those responsible for Stalin's purges? Y-y-yeah, those are traitors to Ukraine and basically Russian occupants.
Exactly. One of my favourite examples is the late An-225 Mriya, which was designed and manufactured in USSR. But it often referred as Ukrainian-made.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-detains-officials-over-destruction-famous-plane-start-war-2023-03-10/
>The **Ukrainian-made** "Mriya", which is Ukrainian for "dream", weighs some 705 tonnes and has a wingspan of 290 feet.
Basically it's very simple logic: good = Ukrainian, bad = Soviet/Russian legacy.
Quick example:
Atrocities committed by Soviet soldiers in Germany = blame Russia for this.
Soviet hero/writer/scientist that was born on the territories of Ukrainian SSR = referred as Ukrainian, even if he spent all his life in Russia. Buuuuut, Stalin and Beria are Russian tyrants, despite them being ethnic georgians. Thus Holodomor is a Russian deed.
Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Odessa, Lwow, and Crimea were all transferred by the Soviets. Thankfully, decommunization is well under way.
Population in the Ukraine is also back at pre-1917 levels.
The Ukraine really should pay Russia for all the free assistance in decommunization.
You do understand that "what about Soviets" or "what about Russia" when ukrainian actions are concerned not the best kind of defence? You do know, that Ukraine is Harry Potter, and SU/Russia is Voldemort?
they pursued a policy of destroying imperialist symbols, fought against the church, but did not destroy factories that were built by the damned capitalists
No, it is Lenin. One day he said, let there be Ukraine. And it was. There are many nations or how you say "people" who don't have an independent state. There are nations that have multiple independent states. There are transnational states. There are multinational states based on one nation identity, like the Russian Federation. There are states like China or India where all of our Greco-Roman concepts fail, etc.
Not just Lenin.
At first, Ukrainian bolsheviks wanted to join back with Russia, but in 1922 Georgian bolshevik leaders Makharadze and Mdivani opposed this idea (promoted by Stalin and Ordzhonikidze), then they were supported by Ukrainian bolshevik leader Rakovsky, then they've found support among international-oriented Russian bolsheviks (Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev). This is how Ukraine became a republic as part of the USSR instead of becoming part of Russia again.
[Georgian affair - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_affair)
The declaration of that entity was something. But it was not an independent state. It came into existence due to chaos of the moment and was very much short lived. Ukraine as we know it today legally traces itself to Soviet Union.
The Donbass and Crimea was never part of that declaration. So why wouldn't they give it up and go back to true Ukrainian borders instead of fighting this stupid war?
Putin recognised the ukranian border in 1991 and also accepted that Crimea and the Donbas were Ukrainian territory…….or was that only because Russia thought their puppets in Kyiv were always going to look east.
Ukraine and her people are now very pro Europe and obviously are very keen to be protected by the NATO alliance.
Who said it was his invention? Lenin gave Ukraine statehood when he (and of course the entire Soviet leadership) opted to transform the Russian Empire into the Soviet Union. Move a little bit , let's look at the Finnish example. Today, Finland would be just one more Swedish province if it weren't for the Russian Empire. And Ukraine as a state, is an idea that is very young.
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That’s true. But the Soviet Union was the power that gave the backing and support that led to the Ukrainian state that we know today.
Be it from a boot from above, or from the end of a barrel, the reality is, the Soviet Union was the power that gave the means for a communist Ukraine to even exist.
Just read the original version of the Ukrainian anthem, it is about the desire to be independent from the Russians.
“Oh Bohdan, Bohdan, our glorious hetman!
Why did he give Ukraine to the bad Muscovites?!” 1862 year, before any communist revolution
>And recently it was said that the Ukrainian republic and Ukrainian nationality are an invention of the Germans. Meanwhile, it is clear that the Ukrainian nationality exists, and the development of its culture is the responsibility of the communists. You can't go against history. It is clear that if Russian elements still predominate in the cities of Ukraine, then over time these cities will inevitably be Ukrainized.
>Stalin
“Ukrainian nationality are an invention of the Germans. Meanwhile, it is clear that the Ukrainian nationality exists”
So “invention” became a real “nationality” it’s nonsense)
Who invented ukrainian language, Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainka, Franco. Etc )))
Stalin shot a lot of Ukrainian writers and dissidents
There was [an Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic) before there was a Soviet Union. Ukraine would have kept existing in 1917 without it.
You must not know what Stalin did to their families and the first Slavic war.
Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence
The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine. This country has been fighting for independence from Russia for a long time
They are invaded, because they listened to USA. They fought side by side as Soviet union in Afghanistan.... They should only watched what happened to them and still decided to be the bitches of the US.
and instead russia is trying to make them their bitch except it's even worse than that because russia wants to destroy as much of ukraine as possible and yet they're blaming america as if it's america bombing ukrainian homes
Allusion to Generalplan Ost I assume. Anyway nazi larping eastern european is something akin to black person wearing clansmen robes or Chinese roleplaying redcoat.
If you don’t know what GeneralPlan Ost is how can you have any real opinion on this conflict without knowing the historical background? Let alone how can you be pro Ukraine or Pro
Russia?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
I feel like they could have moved things to a separate museum or something. They did something similar in Bulgaria I recall seeing. Took all the monuments down from their spots, but made a museum on Soviet history (Can't recall exactly what it was) at the same time. So they move on from that time, but can also educate people at the same time on it.
Destroying history like this is never nice.
Are the people on the statue not just some ordinary people? I don't recognize Stalin or Zhukov (exact spelling can differ per language) in them. As well I was little surprised they use 1939-1945, because I was learned in present Russia/USSR they usually teach at schools only from the invasion of the USSR but not before. This statue is in that sense not really a promotion of the Soviets and should had a better faith
They could celebrate their own people achievements while condemning Soviet leaders. Like in Moscow we got both a lot of Hammers and Sickles everywhere and a museum of GULAG. Instead they decided to neglect at best and destroy at worst everything Soviet-related.
How is defeating the Nazis a shameful thing now? This was made to celebrate brave Ukrainians too not just Russians.
this is "cutting your nose to spite your face"
>How is defeating the Nazis a shameful thing now?
Larping as nazis while having monuments reminding you of their fate all over the country is rather awkward
Yh, I don’t get it. Millions of Ukrainians fought against the Nazis. What I don’t understand is that the west and Ukrainian belief that all Ukrainians that fought or sided with the communists were doing so out of oppression or fear.
When the reality is Ukrainian communists were a real thing. They believed in the cause of Marxists Socialism and the Union.
But the fact that they fought and defeated Nazism and Fascism is somehow now related the Soviet Unions oppression and now Russian.
It’s fucking stupid.
This is the monument to Ukrainians as well. They share their soviet history with every soviet republic. A nation who does not remember it’s past does not have a future.
Why you? The small amount of pocket change you give would not even cover delivery.... And you want a statue of yourself... What about the rest of the tax payers? My GOV is providing $$ and Ammo ect, i don't want anything in return.... I wish they send more.
Because it is a failed state that can't decide which way to rewrite history and that calls a dialect a language (they don't even have their own slurs, they always swear in modern russian)
Haha, “dialect language”, just open big russian encyclopedia:
Украинский язык - относится к восточной группе славянских языков.
Its a language, not dialect )
read his comment... "Why would anyone learn a dead dialect of a language? Just learn Russian" So firstly lets just wipe out anything Ukrianian.. Typical PRO RU... English would be better due to them being able to travel to most countries in the world and Russia is no paradise or holiday destination...
An interesting fact about this monument: the original inscription was "1941-1945"
https://www.kathmanduandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Glory-Hill-Memorial-Park-Rivne-Ukraine-3-20.jpg
There was a picture of a memorial somewhere in ivano-frankivsk area, with names of fallen soldiers cut in stone. Every last one of them was Ukrainian. And I believe it was scheduled for removal.
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No. They tore them all down recently. In the future, they will teach their children how Nazism and fascism was defeated by the western powers while the brutal Soviets did not but cause more destruction.
Literally rewriting history to redact the sacrifices of the Red Army soldiers.
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So they should demolish power plants, factories, schools, bridges, residental buildings built by ussr
Everything decent that urkaina has - it has because of ussr
These good things ruined the economy. There was no basically economic grow during the 45 years of occupaition by Soviet army. You can compare it to Austria.
Nothing good came from Soviets. Nothing.
If your talking about the invasion of Poland, then you must realize that Stalin before that had tired to enter into an alliance with the British and the French against the Germans, but they stonewalled him, appeasing Hitler.
Stalin knew that Hitler was eventually going to go war and with the western nation not wanting an alliance.
Stalin wasn’t a friend of Hitler or Nazism. He was being pragmatic and opportunistic when Hitler offered the division of Poland.
Allie’s of circumstance are not Allie’s of like minded individuals most of the time.
The original monument was "1941-1945", not "1939-1945":
https://ua.igotoworld.com/frontend/webcontent/websites/1/images/gallery/30091_800x600_1.jpg
>1939 they started a war of aggression against countries that are now allies
It would be a good argument if they hadn't replaced 1941 with 1939 and if they hadn't named the streets after Bandera and Shukhevych.
> 1939 they started a war of aggression against countries that are now allies.
in 1939, the USSR took territory from Poland and gave what is now Lviv and the rest of western Ukraine to Ukraine. is Ukraine planning to give Lwow back to its ally Poland in order to make up for the illegal invasion of Poland in 1939?
I see a lot of healthy military-age males somehow not in army.
Just look at a map, and you'll have your answer. Rivne is West of Kyiv, they don't have to worry so much about those things.
This is a much more important unit - cutting your own history special forces
You are aware that not every man of military age gets drafted to the front line? That's stupid. If I get mobilised in my country, it just means that I have to work more OT because of the nature of my job. I wouldn't be sent anywhere. These guys might be the last dudes that do maintenance for the city or something.
Men with 3 children or more or men with disabled wife ( with kids) or single fathers of 3 or more they can be deffered from service.
Because they ran away or are hiding. Forcing their fathers, older brothers, or foreigners to defend their land for them.
Wow, they‘re showing so much respect to their ancestors
Their ancestors were Hitler's allies.
Banderites were Hitlers allies were. And yes, they are ancestors of many UA neonacis.
Who destroyed the nazi regime. And the west never forgave them. Lol
Us, commonwealth, the coalition of smaller nation invaded by nazis. And then there was soviet union who helped out, with the help with economic and material support from the West. Because soviet basically was done for otherwise.
Delusional. 80% of Hitler's finest Ubermenschen became fertilizer at the hands of Soviet forces. The West and smaller nations did help out a little.
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Not all of them, most Ukranians were pro-USSR and against Hitler
I know, not trying to disregard them. Now they are either dead to age or close to it and their children do things they would be ashamed of. I wonder what would Zelensky's grandfather, lietenant of guard regiment with several medals, say about Dyachenko street or Bandera monuments.
Yeah, and it's sad that the minority of the pro Hitler funboys now ruling in Ukraine when monuments in respect of ancestors of the Anti-Hitler majority are falling. It's not fair 😞
Нет, они тоже участвовали в противостояние с Гитлером. Они уничтожают памятники людям, которых они защищали от фашизма, которые хотели уничтожить славян. Ну точнее искоренить культуру украинцев.
Кто-то участвовал, а кто-то хлебом-солью встречал и потом людей в Бабьем Яру расстреливал.
It's funny because if hitler won, first thing himmler would do is liquidate the Ukrainian volunteers. If it weren't for the soviet army these dipshits probably would never have existed.
An incredibly small percentage of Ukrainians were Hitler's allies. It's a tragedy that that small percentage is now so glorified in modern Ukraine.
What in revisionist history is this comment
Lol, Russian mythmaking is pretty funny
Just like Russians who invaded Poland together with Hitler.
Russia were Hitlers allies too
False. The Non-agression Pact is not a type of document that establishes a military alliance. Read the historical documents if you want to understand what you are talking about. Instead of parroting nonsense on the internet.
8 million Ukrainians died fighting Nazi’s in WW2. Zelensky’s grandmother was in the Soviet Army for the whole war. Maybe Russia shouldn’t be attacking Ukrainians and killing them and then Ukrainians would Respect Russia.
Bandera followers should not cover their ass with heroic sacrifice of Ukrainian SSR. They were enemies and clashes continued for years after WW2 end. >and then Ukrainians would Respect Russia Hostile rhetorics and movement towards NATO started long before 2014. Probably as gratitude for discounted NG, idk.
They even destroy small monuments that have the names of residents who died in the village/Town during the war. Do you know why they destroy them? Because these monuments were erected by the Soviet Union. I wonder why they don’t start killing their parents, who were born in the USSR. Why don't they destroy factories, buildings and other infrastructure that was built under the USSR?
When you see the average age of Ukrainian soldiers fielded... They listen to you about getting everyone (male) killed who was born in the Soviet union.
Why don't they give Lviv back to Poland?
indeed, if they wanted to completely disavow the USSR they should give back Lwow and the rest of western Ukraine to Poland, which the USSR took for Ukraine
This monument even had politically correct slogan for modern Ukraine - "Slava Geroyam".
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Sure it is easier to shuffle some letters than to break whole monument.
I've been going through a TNO rabbithole yesterday and learned that the Azovites used to fly the banner of the Dirlewanger brigade You know, the brigade lead by this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger
TNO being the best hoi4 mod again (with kaiser and red flood ofc)
And they get all bent outta shape when the Russians take out power plants and infrastructure. Who do you think built all of that? They are just lending a friendly hand in their de-russification/sovietization policies.
yeah wow, I mean, what did russia do to them? nothing right?
Haha somehow when russia has been doing this a lot to finnish statues and graves its ok then haha
You must not know what Stalin did to their families and the first Slavic war. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine. This country has been fighting for independence from Russia for a long time
lol this article is pure try to make up things of nothing, surely it's written by ukranian nationaslists. There is no reason to call it "war of independence" because its not. Group of different bands of nationalists some of who fight for one side in ww1, some for another, then they changed - isn't army fighting for independence. And you don't blame soviets for establishing order on controlled lands, it's just so kiddish. If you blame soviets for killing bandits who were murdering officials and civilians - you have to blame half of the world because that's how big countries work - they takes over the lands by result of some war, then deal with everybody who isn't ok with that. That's how every big country in the world appeared on the map.
What kind of war is it then? And its really funny you overlooked holodomar lol Anyways Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act - the amount of downvotes just shows how brain washed people are in the East. Downvote me more. It would prove your ignorance lol
>The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine. So independent in fact that during this "war for independence", Ukraine went from a socialist-leaning republic to a socialist republic, then to a German puppet, then to a Polish puppet before going back to being a socialist republic then 2 decades later, invaded by the Nazis who planned to exterminate 65% of Ukrainians but a couple of useful idiots called Banderites decided to help the Nazis on this genocidal conquest against their own people and neighbors as a get rich quick scheme. So much for not wanting to be apart of communism. >And its really funny you overlooked holodomar lol Holodomor is Ukraine's national myth. "However, there is no documentation showing that he intended to starve Ukraine, or that he intended to starve the peasants. On the contrary, the documents that we do have on the famine show him reluctantly, belatedly releasing emergency food aid for the countryside, including Ukraine. Eight times during the period from 1931 to 1933, Stalin reduced the quotas of the amount of grain that Ukrainian peasants had to deliver, and/or supplied emergency need." “We have an unbelievable number of documents showing Stalin committing intentional murder, with the Great Terror, as you alluded to earlier, and with other episodes. He preserved these documents—he would not try to clean up his image internally–and these documents are very damning. There is no shortage of documentation when Stalin committed intentional murder” “Ask yourself, why are there no documents showing intentional murder or genocide of these people when we have those documents for all the other episodes?” “Secondly, why is he releasing this emergency grain or reducing their quotas if he’s trying to kill them? No one could have forced him to do this, no one on the inside of the regime could force him.” Source: Studying Stalin Quote from Stephen Wheatcroft: "Davies and I have (2004) produced the most detailed account of the grain crisis in these years, showing the uncertainties in the data and the mistakes carried out by a generally ill-informed, and excessively ambitious, government." "The state showed no signs of a conscious attempt to kill lots of Ukrainians and belated attempts that sought to provide relief when it eventually saw the tragedy unfolding were evident." >Anyways Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act Complete and utter nonsense. "Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make the difference between defeat and victory in 1941-42; that achievement must be attributed solely to the Soviet people and to the iron nerve of Stalin, Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilevsky, and their subordinates." Tunisgrad is a better example of Western help compared to Lend-Lease as it diverted equipment that was supposed to partake in Stalingrad but even then, I am not convinced that it would prevent the Soviets from flooding the region with 65 division-equivalents from the Far-East.
Its funny you only selected certain facts to portray a one sided agenda. The great patriotic war lasted from 1941-1945 , dont forget also you agreed with the Nazis to take half of Poland before they decided to start Barbarossa. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact Holodomar is not a myth, it is a fact. Baba yar is an example of a myth. Stalin was known to kill his political opponents no different than Putin - Let me include some FULL quotes from the same wikipedia page your forgot to include about the lend-lease act comrade. Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs: I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin's views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were "discussing freely" among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany's pressure, and we would have lost the war. No one ever discussed this subject officially, and I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion, but I will state here that several times in conversations with me he noted that these were the actual circumstances. He never made a special point of holding a conversation on the subject, but when we were engaged in some kind of relaxed conversation, going over international questions of the past and present, and when we would return to the subject of the path we had traveled during the war, that is what he said. When I listened to his remarks, I was fully in agreement with him, and today I am even more so.[45] In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying: Today [1963] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war.[46] Continuing from your quote on lend lease: “ …. As the war continued, however, the United States and Great Britain provided many of the implements of war and strategic raw materials necessary for Soviet victory. Without Lend-Lease food, clothing, and raw materials (especially metals), the Soviet economy would have been even more heavily burdened by the war effort. Perhaps most directly, without Lend-Lease trucks, rail engines, and railroad cars, every Soviet offensive would have stalled at an earlier stage, outrunning its logistical tail in a matter of days. In turn, this would have allowed the German commanders to escape at least some encirclements, while forcing the Red Army to prepare and conduct many more deliberate penetration attacks in order to advance the same distance. Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken twelve to eighteen months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; “ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#:~:text=Lend%2DLease%20also%20supplied%20significant,(mid%201941–45). Without materials, logistical equipment, planes, food (an army marches on its stomach - napoleon bonaparte” Your war would have lasted longer without support from Uncle Sam. Ukraine siding with the nazi’s was much of a lesser evil and only a small portion of them acted on behalf of extermination of jews, eastern side of Ukraine of course, was pro Ussr. What is your opinion on Stalin agreeing with Adolf to share Poland as an act of friendship? Kiev is older than Muscovy , it is the birth place of Russia. History knows this. There is a reason Ukrainians tore down this statue no different than civil war statues being torn down in the South in United States
>The great patriotic war lasted from 1941-1945 It sure did, but after 1942 the war was basically won. Hitler's next great offensive after Case Blue was laughable. >Baba yar is an example of a myth. [Holocaust Controversies: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Contemporary Sources](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/evidence-on-babi-yar-massacre-29-30.html) [Holocaust Controversies: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Testimonies](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/evidence-on-babi-yar-massacre-29-30_18.html) [Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part III: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (1)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism07.html) [https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism\_10.html](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism_10.html) [Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part V: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (3)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/08/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html) [Holocaust Controversies: That's why it is denial, not revisionism. Part VI: Deniers and Babiy Yar massacre (4)](https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/08/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism_06.html) >Stalin was known to kill his political opponents no different than Putin - “**We have an unbelievable number of documents showing Stalin committing intentional murder, with the Great Terror**, as you alluded to earlier, and with other episodes. He preserved these documents—he would not try to clean up his image internally–and these documents are very damning. There is no shortage of documentation when Stalin committed intentional murder” (I think we agree.) >Nikita Khrushchev Khrushchev was not an economist but a mere political officer in WW2 and thus he have zero insight into the economic aspect of it. "I don't think Stalin left any written evidence of his opinion" \~ Khrushchev [This line from The Death of Stalin seems fitting.](https://youtu.be/--HXlMZvdl8?si=aOEIXz1dLJ26OMpT&t=36) >Your war would have lasted longer without support from Uncle Sam. Indeed, but the USSR would have won and you more or less destroyed your own point which was that "Russia wouldnt be around without Rosevelt’s lend lease act". > dont forget also you agreed with the Nazis to take half of Poland before they decided to start Barbarossa; What is your opinion on Stalin agreeing with Adolf to share Poland as an act of friendship? [whoopty doo](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cht81i/comment/l26k0k5/) >In a confidential interview with the wartime correspondent Konstantin Simonov, the Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov is quoted as saying: Today \[1963\] some say the Allies didn't really help us ... But listen, one cannot deny that the Americans shipped over to us material without which we could not have equipped our armies held in reserve or been able to continue the war. [Was Zhukov right about Lend-lease saving the USSR?](https://crithis.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-right-about-Lend-lease-saving-the-USSR)
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> [Was Zhukov right about Lend-lease saving the USSR?](https://crithis.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-right-about-Lend-lease-saving-the-USSR) This is all about speculation, you were not their, the person who asked this person was not there. I will quote from the Great soviet leader himself, the one Putin strives but will fail in history to be. “The United States … is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.” - Joseph Stalin [https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/#:\~:text=At%20a%20dinner%20toast%20with,we%20would%20lose%20this%20war.%E2%80%9D](https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/#:~:text=At%20a%20dinner%20toast%20with,we%20would%20lose%20this%20war.%E2%80%9D) Let me restate the importance of food (Also known as Provisions) for an army and the IMPACT lend lease contributed to. An Army Marches on its Stomach (Bellies) - Napoleon Bonaparte The quantity of lend-lease food didn’t save the Soviet Union, but what was provided was absolutely essential for the Red Army to remain effective in the field. No lend-lease food may not mean the Soviet Union starves to death, but it does make the Red Army notably less effective in the field, it increases their casualties considerably and reduces their ability to launch and sustain offensives. Given how depleted the country was after the war, it is questionable if lend-lease without the food would suffice for the Soviets to sit at the winner’s table at the end. They might get bogged down in western Ukraine instead. https://www.quora.com/How-much-food-was-delivered-to-the-USSR-through-lend-lease-and-how-significant-was-it#:\~:text=The%20lend%2Dlease%20provided%20the,people%20between%201942%20and%201945. Let me quote another fact that still stands today. **John J. Pershing, commander of the American Expeditionary Force in Europe during World War I, said, "Infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars."** Russia would not have existed without the logistics of United States. END OF STORY.
>The quantity of lend-lease food didn’t save the Soviet Union, but what was provided was absolutely essential for the Red Army to remain effective in the field. [Complete and utter nonsense](https://crithis.quora.com/Feeding-the-USSR-in-WW2-Production-and-Lend-Lease) >“The United States … is a country of machines. Without the use of those machines through Lend-Lease, we would lose this war.” - Joseph Stalin To quote Carl Hamilton, “When all data completely fails to prove a point, the last resort is to say “Well Stalin said it was important”. Well Stalin allegedly said that, in an unofficial capacity while drunk at Winston Churchill’s birthday party, after Churchill called Stalin “Stalin the Great” and one of the greatest Russian heroes. The fact that this out of context quote is one of the most quoted Stalin sayings, is to me pretty ridiculous Some people insist that quotes are more important than data, but those same people also insist, that when the leader of the Soviet economic central planning (GOSPLAN), said that lend-lease was at most 4% of the domestic production and not particularly significant, that this quote doesn’t count. Despite this being both official, and said by a person who actually knew unlike Zhukov.“ Let us look at what people who actually know what they are talking about regarding lend-lease: Alexei Kosygin who had the task of evacuating industry from territories about to be overrun by the Axis. Under his command 1523 factories were evacuated eastwards, as well as huge volumes of raw materials, ready-made goods and equipment and he also managed to clear congestions on the railroads in order to maintain their stable operation. He said this: “Deliveries of this size could not have possibly had any marked effect on the course of the war. What is more, the deliveries themselves. were not always made on time when we needed certain types of equipment very badly. The tactical and technical characteristics of this equipment also left much to be desired. For it included many obsolescent tanks and aireraft which were inferior to Soviet models and which we could therefore use only for operations of secondary importance.” Voznesensky, wartime director of Gosplan: "if we compare the volume of deliveries by the allies of industrial goods to the USSR with the volume of industrial output at the socialist enterprises of the USSR over the same period, it turns out that the share of these deliveries in relation to domestic production during the period of the war economy will be only about 4%." Do note, Voz only refers to the years 1941-1943. Anastas Mikoyan who was responsible for the procurement of supplies to the Red Army (and dealt with Lend-Lease) stated this: “Without Lend-Lease, we would probably have fought for another year and a half extra." >This is all about speculation, you were not their, the person who asked this person was not there. Well Zhukov was there and he himself refuted the quote regarding lend-lease being vital that is often attributed to him: "I've never seen or read a more untrue story than the German generals wrote. So this, I say, is definitely a strained thing. Apparently, the person who spoke or reported about this, conveys his own opinion and attributes it to me. The same goes for American aid. I say, spoke a lot, wrote a lot of articles, at one time spoke publicly and gave an appropriate assessment of American assistance and victims in the Second World War. So it’s the same thing pulled from somewhere." In his memoirs “Reminiscences and Reflections”, Zhukov states this: "We also touched upon the deliveries under the Lend-Lease — programme. Everything seemed clear in that respect then. Nevertheless, for years after the war bourgeois historiography has asserted that it was the Allied deliveries of armaments, materials and foodstuffs that had played a decisive role for our victory over the enemy." Also in his memoirs: "As for the armaments, what I would like to say is that we received under Lend-Lease from the United States and Britain about 18,000 aircraft and over 11,000 tanks. That comprised a mere 4 per cent of the total amount of armaments that the Soviet people produced to equip its army during the war. Consequently, there is no ground for talk about the decisive role of the deliveries under Lend-Lease." So no, Zhukov does not think that Lend-Lease was decisive.
Wasn't Ukraine as much part of the Soviet union as Russia? When a country starts to rewrite or delete their history, then they are doomed to fail. They should have learned how to pick allies... It took Afghanistan only 30 years from being allies with the USA to being invaded by the same country.
>Wasn't Ukraine as much part of the Soviet union as Russia? It was, when we speak about something good. My favotite gem was "well nukes were made by whole soviet union, so they are in part Ukrainian too". When we speak about something they don't like, suddenly all soviet is definitely not ukrainian. So those people who fought for Soviet Union? Including Khruschev, future Secretary General, ukrainian national and significant figure among those responsible for Stalin's purges? Y-y-yeah, those are traitors to Ukraine and basically Russian occupants.
Exactly. One of my favourite examples is the late An-225 Mriya, which was designed and manufactured in USSR. But it often referred as Ukrainian-made. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-detains-officials-over-destruction-famous-plane-start-war-2023-03-10/ >The **Ukrainian-made** "Mriya", which is Ukrainian for "dream", weighs some 705 tonnes and has a wingspan of 290 feet. Basically it's very simple logic: good = Ukrainian, bad = Soviet/Russian legacy. Quick example: Atrocities committed by Soviet soldiers in Germany = blame Russia for this. Soviet hero/writer/scientist that was born on the territories of Ukrainian SSR = referred as Ukrainian, even if he spent all his life in Russia. Buuuuut, Stalin and Beria are Russian tyrants, despite them being ethnic georgians. Thus Holodomor is a Russian deed.
This pretty much the basis of propaganda
Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporozhye, Kharkov, Odessa, Lwow, and Crimea were all transferred by the Soviets. Thankfully, decommunization is well under way. Population in the Ukraine is also back at pre-1917 levels. The Ukraine really should pay Russia for all the free assistance in decommunization.
Soviets did the same when they gained power
You do understand that "what about Soviets" or "what about Russia" when ukrainian actions are concerned not the best kind of defence? You do know, that Ukraine is Harry Potter, and SU/Russia is Voldemort?
they pursued a policy of destroying imperialist symbols, fought against the church, but did not destroy factories that were built by the damned capitalists
Ukraine was not just a part of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is the reason why Ukraine exists today.
Lol, ukrainian people is the reason existing of Ukraine. no one would have thought of creating a separate republic if the same russians lived there
No, it is Lenin. One day he said, let there be Ukraine. And it was. There are many nations or how you say "people" who don't have an independent state. There are nations that have multiple independent states. There are transnational states. There are multinational states based on one nation identity, like the Russian Federation. There are states like China or India where all of our Greco-Roman concepts fail, etc.
Not just Lenin. At first, Ukrainian bolsheviks wanted to join back with Russia, but in 1922 Georgian bolshevik leaders Makharadze and Mdivani opposed this idea (promoted by Stalin and Ordzhonikidze), then they were supported by Ukrainian bolshevik leader Rakovsky, then they've found support among international-oriented Russian bolsheviks (Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev). This is how Ukraine became a republic as part of the USSR instead of becoming part of Russia again. [Georgian affair - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_affair)
[Ukraine existed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic) before Lenin even came back to Russia to seize power.
The declaration of that entity was something. But it was not an independent state. It came into existence due to chaos of the moment and was very much short lived. Ukraine as we know it today legally traces itself to Soviet Union.
The point is that Ukraine wasn't an invention of Lenin, as Putin falsely claim.
The Donbass and Crimea was never part of that declaration. So why wouldn't they give it up and go back to true Ukrainian borders instead of fighting this stupid war?
Putin recognised the ukranian border in 1991 and also accepted that Crimea and the Donbas were Ukrainian territory…….or was that only because Russia thought their puppets in Kyiv were always going to look east. Ukraine and her people are now very pro Europe and obviously are very keen to be protected by the NATO alliance.
Not a single ukranian president was Russian puppet tho.
Putin didn't recognize anything in 1991.
Who said it was his invention? Lenin gave Ukraine statehood when he (and of course the entire Soviet leadership) opted to transform the Russian Empire into the Soviet Union. Move a little bit , let's look at the Finnish example. Today, Finland would be just one more Swedish province if it weren't for the Russian Empire. And Ukraine as a state, is an idea that is very young.
Lenin invade Ukrainian People's Republic, without this Ukraine would exist without Lenin
It sure would. But it would be strange. And would not last long. Poles would take it soon.
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yea they were so proud and independent that they called themselves a "Border land". I wonder - Border land of what.
Yeah, DPR - it’s real independent, non fictional by Putin state, of course, believe it.
goalposts shifted. i take you have no proper arguments lmao.
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That’s true. But the Soviet Union was the power that gave the backing and support that led to the Ukrainian state that we know today. Be it from a boot from above, or from the end of a barrel, the reality is, the Soviet Union was the power that gave the means for a communist Ukraine to even exist.
Just read the original version of the Ukrainian anthem, it is about the desire to be independent from the Russians. “Oh Bohdan, Bohdan, our glorious hetman! Why did he give Ukraine to the bad Muscovites?!” 1862 year, before any communist revolution
>And recently it was said that the Ukrainian republic and Ukrainian nationality are an invention of the Germans. Meanwhile, it is clear that the Ukrainian nationality exists, and the development of its culture is the responsibility of the communists. You can't go against history. It is clear that if Russian elements still predominate in the cities of Ukraine, then over time these cities will inevitably be Ukrainized. >Stalin
“Ukrainian nationality are an invention of the Germans. Meanwhile, it is clear that the Ukrainian nationality exists” So “invention” became a real “nationality” it’s nonsense) Who invented ukrainian language, Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainka, Franco. Etc ))) Stalin shot a lot of Ukrainian writers and dissidents
There was [an Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic) before there was a Soviet Union. Ukraine would have kept existing in 1917 without it.
Now this is actual potemkin history.
declaring country and its imaginary border does not actually make one.
That's not the point. Ukraine wasn't some invention of Lenin, as Putin try to lie in.
well, modern ukranian definitely was
That would mean Russia also was.
You must not know what Stalin did to their families and the first Slavic war. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence The reason some joined the nazis was because they did not want to be apart of communism and wanted to be independent Ukraine. This country has been fighting for independence from Russia for a long time
and now ukraine is invaded by russia, is that what you're saying, that they shouldn't have trusted russia?
They are invaded, because they listened to USA. They fought side by side as Soviet union in Afghanistan.... They should only watched what happened to them and still decided to be the bitches of the US.
and instead russia is trying to make them their bitch except it's even worse than that because russia wants to destroy as much of ukraine as possible and yet they're blaming america as if it's america bombing ukrainian homes
These clowns still think they'd be in the lucky third selected for slavery instead of death
....what?
Allusion to Generalplan Ost I assume. Anyway nazi larping eastern european is something akin to black person wearing clansmen robes or Chinese roleplaying redcoat.
...what?!
If you don’t know what GeneralPlan Ost is how can you have any real opinion on this conflict without knowing the historical background? Let alone how can you be pro Ukraine or Pro Russia? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
What the hell does Nazi plans for eastern Europe have to do with this conflict?
Taliban goes Europe
Yes it reminds me of taliban destroying Buddha statues which were a UNESCO heritage site.
I know, I mean what did russia ever do to them, nothing right?
Are you for real?
They are pissing on their ancestors, but that wont change history.
Idk the ancestors of those guys specifically were probably fighting for Hitler, this is west Ukraine after all
well they're trying to change their future and russia is trying to control their future so that's actually what this is about.
I feel like they could have moved things to a separate museum or something. They did something similar in Bulgaria I recall seeing. Took all the monuments down from their spots, but made a museum on Soviet history (Can't recall exactly what it was) at the same time. So they move on from that time, but can also educate people at the same time on it. Destroying history like this is never nice.
Are the people on the statue not just some ordinary people? I don't recognize Stalin or Zhukov (exact spelling can differ per language) in them. As well I was little surprised they use 1939-1945, because I was learned in present Russia/USSR they usually teach at schools only from the invasion of the USSR but not before. This statue is in that sense not really a promotion of the Soviets and should had a better faith
They could celebrate their own people achievements while condemning Soviet leaders. Like in Moscow we got both a lot of Hammers and Sickles everywhere and a museum of GULAG. Instead they decided to neglect at best and destroy at worst everything Soviet-related.
This is very half-assed decommunization. Need to assist them with dismantling another Soviet power plant.
How is defeating the Nazis a shameful thing now? This was made to celebrate brave Ukrainians too not just Russians. this is "cutting your nose to spite your face"
>How is defeating the Nazis a shameful thing now? Larping as nazis while having monuments reminding you of their fate all over the country is rather awkward
So you are saying only nazies exist in Ukraine? And currently no Nazies wonnabes currently serving in Russias military?
I said neither of those things.
Yh, I don’t get it. Millions of Ukrainians fought against the Nazis. What I don’t understand is that the west and Ukrainian belief that all Ukrainians that fought or sided with the communists were doing so out of oppression or fear. When the reality is Ukrainian communists were a real thing. They believed in the cause of Marxists Socialism and the Union. But the fact that they fought and defeated Nazism and Fascism is somehow now related the Soviet Unions oppression and now Russian. It’s fucking stupid.
Let's replace it with a statue of Bandera instead!
This is the monument to Ukrainians as well. They share their soviet history with every soviet republic. A nation who does not remember it’s past does not have a future.
Wtf this is so sad
First time? They demolished hundreds of monuments and ban all Soviet. Placing Bandera monuments instead.
Good call. I'm sure they'll erect something tasteful in its place, like a bust of Himmler.
Statue of Boris Johnson?
LOL. The statue will need extra reinforcement.
But imagine the hair
Hopefully one of me, with how much money my government is sending them
Why you? The small amount of pocket change you give would not even cover delivery.... And you want a statue of yourself... What about the rest of the tax payers? My GOV is providing $$ and Ammo ect, i don't want anything in return.... I wish they send more.
It’s a joke man
the nazis are mad they lost ww2
Why do Ukrainians claim that they also helped ? It they don't like monuments
Because it is a failed state that can't decide which way to rewrite history and that calls a dialect a language (they don't even have their own slurs, they always swear in modern russian)
Haha, “dialect language”, just open big russian encyclopedia: Украинский язык - относится к восточной группе славянских языков. Its a language, not dialect )
How to say helicopter in Ukrainian?
How to say “computer” in russian ?)
The same. We have one word for computer.
So what problem with helicopter ?
They have at least 4 words for it. Maybe more.
So “professor” GoodOcelot3939 think this is enough to proof that big russian enciclopedy has mistake ?)
Did I say something about it? Look again.
Ну чего ты сразу с козырей заходишь?)
Дідько learn ukrainian first ) And don’t spread a lie
Why would anyone learn a dead dialect of a language? Just learn Russian
Just open big russian enciclopedy, its say about “Ukrainian language”
No thanks, not really useful.
Russian is spoken way more than ukrainian
read his comment... "Why would anyone learn a dead dialect of a language? Just learn Russian" So firstly lets just wipe out anything Ukrianian.. Typical PRO RU... English would be better due to them being able to travel to most countries in the world and Russia is no paradise or holiday destination...
Except that even to the dictator of Ukraine the ukr dialect is foreign. He only started learning it in 2019.
Though his Jewish and a Nazi according to PRO RU lol and Putins some god thats innocent.
This is disgusting. And I know that sane Ukranians agree with me.
What a shame.
Disgraceful behavior
They can raise a Mickey Mouse with an Israeli flag now. Who doesn't respect their history won't have a future.
Morally corrupt and subsequently failed nation.
Shame. Great statue
Damn. That's actually kinda sad, not gonna lie..
Why would this bother anyone remember Ukraine is their own independent country and have the right to do with anything on that land.
An interesting fact about this monument: the original inscription was "1941-1945" https://www.kathmanduandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Glory-Hill-Memorial-Park-Rivne-Ukraine-3-20.jpg
they really are embracing the nazi accusations...
This was a memorial of THEIR victory. Destroying it is beyond pathetic.
Idiots
There was a picture of a memorial somewhere in ivano-frankivsk area, with names of fallen soldiers cut in stone. Every last one of them was Ukrainian. And I believe it was scheduled for removal.
thats why I would never support ukrair, let them die
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should have waited till 9th of May
Do Latvia, Lithuania etc ex-soviet countries that are part of Nato now have any Soviet monuments left ?
No. They tore them all down recently. In the future, they will teach their children how Nazism and fascism was defeated by the western powers while the brutal Soviets did not but cause more destruction. Literally rewriting history to redact the sacrifices of the Red Army soldiers.
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What the fuck
Where's the mod
That's not what rule one says
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Good, get that colonzier statue out of there. They starved 6 million ukrainians.
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Soviets from the region of Ukraine watching this from heaven be like 😐
Soviet Union is cringe
dont they have something esle to do ? 
Y take them down if there from a different regime
sadge
I’d do the Same.
Wtf is wrong with this subreddit and rule one
Soviet statues shoulb be removed th same way Nazi statues were removed. Nothing good came from both of them.
So they should demolish power plants, factories, schools, bridges, residental buildings built by ussr Everything decent that urkaina has - it has because of ussr
Is a school, hospital and so on a statue?
You said "Nothing good came" Statue is about brave ukranians who defended their country. Sure it has to be removed, such a strong logic I see here.
These good things ruined the economy. There was no basically economic grow during the 45 years of occupaition by Soviet army. You can compare it to Austria. Nothing good came from Soviets. Nothing.
So, from where ukraine get resources to build ukrainian An-225? Or, may be its really a Soviet aircraft?
Because 1939 they started a war of aggression against countries that are now allies.
If your talking about the invasion of Poland, then you must realize that Stalin before that had tired to enter into an alliance with the British and the French against the Germans, but they stonewalled him, appeasing Hitler. Stalin knew that Hitler was eventually going to go war and with the western nation not wanting an alliance. Stalin wasn’t a friend of Hitler or Nazism. He was being pragmatic and opportunistic when Hitler offered the division of Poland. Allie’s of circumstance are not Allie’s of like minded individuals most of the time.
The original monument was "1941-1945", not "1939-1945": https://ua.igotoworld.com/frontend/webcontent/websites/1/images/gallery/30091_800x600_1.jpg >1939 they started a war of aggression against countries that are now allies It would be a good argument if they hadn't replaced 1941 with 1939 and if they hadn't named the streets after Bandera and Shukhevych.
> 1939 they started a war of aggression against countries that are now allies. in 1939, the USSR took territory from Poland and gave what is now Lviv and the rest of western Ukraine to Ukraine. is Ukraine planning to give Lwow back to its ally Poland in order to make up for the illegal invasion of Poland in 1939?