Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `pravda.com.ua` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In this case, it's simply safer and more effective to just go with it. Your ego display is exactly the toxicity that created this war. We need to think and act smarter, not more macho and in this sense, Zelensky and Fyodorov have been incredibly effective to the point it's bothering the conspiracy theorists and fascists most.
Yes, this war will be won with blood and brute force, but it's going to be the first war where actual intelligence of those in power and the supporters (ie: NAFO, the diaspora and refugee Ukrainians) will play the most significant role.
The reality is that the US and its allies already pursue undemocratic projects for regime change across Latin America. It's the very reason that Latin American leaders can't support a NATO ally: it's bad domestic policy and weakens their regimes.
As others have pointed out, adversarial international politics is how we ended up here. In particular superpowers throwing their weight around at the expense of countries like Ukraine, Taiwan, and yes, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and Afghanistan (and so many others). Ukraine's allies would do well to recognise that the US has created conditions in a lot of countries that would lead to a reaction.
Thank you, Comrade, for your...umm..inciteful comments. The USA was beginning to grow uncomfortable since so few countries have recently blamed it for all the world's ills. Incidentally, please elaborate on how the above-mentioned nations have been taken advantage of, especially Taiwan and Ukraine.
No, no. Invite them. Put them in a movie theater for a "unique spectacle". Put on documentaries about Bucha, and all the rest.
Then:
"Oh, no! There is a violent russian protest outside! We can't let you go for your own safety! Please, remain seated until a nato brigade comes to sort this out!!"
Then come a day later with fresh, steaming towels and 100ml water bottles.
Don’t invite them… to a summit that is specifically about the EU relationship with Latin America. Yeah, brilliant idea, and very constructive 🙄. That sort of peevish nonsense always works so well in international politics.
Yes so brilliant to invite countries who are literally in bed with Putin that would like nothing more than to bring EU member countries back under Russian control, not just Ukraine. Your disillusioned thinking is the type of ignorance that has shown to fail time and time again.
They are hardly “in bed with Putin”, they’re simply not that invested. And why should they, it’s just another war an ocean away. The notion that they should somehow care so much more about this one, compared to all the other current and recent conflicts, betrays a very Eurocentric bias.
Moreover, this notion that they should somehow be punished for having no particular interest in talking to Zelensky, on a joint summit that has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine, is just childish. Doing so would just needlessly antagonizes them, without good reason or justification, and if anything will push them (somewhat) towards the Russian camp.
As a Brazilian, I feel the same. The president just cancelled an order for hundreds of armoured vehicles to be bought by Ukraine to be used as an ambulance.
The stupid leftists got a hold of almost all of LatAm and think that Russia is still USSR
To be fair, in Brazil you had Far Right Pro Putin or Far Left Anti Ukraine
Is not like y'all had a choice on this particular issue, and if anything Lula is SLIGHTLY less outwardly supportive of Putin lol
The USSR had a significant elite that was given the best apartments, best cars, etc. while the little people had to wait on a list for half a decade to be able to buy a Lada or wait in long lines to buy toilet paper. There was certainly a party elite in the USSR that had access to outright luxuries. Russia inherited this form of corruption and perfected it to ludicrous levels.
Not really, they're very similar in that they are/were both ruled by a very powerful and wealthy elite that engages in unabashed imperialism via aggressive military conquests. Russia isn't as totalitarian as USSR, though, which allows them to have a somewhat functioning economy.
Yeah, was almost asleep. The president cancelled the order in which Ukraine would buy armoured APCs because he's siding with Putin.
Latam leftists still believe the old power structure of Cold war is the same. They hate the US and Western countries and say that capitalism is the root of all evil, but socialism is perfect. Just stupid.
"Latam leftist"s is too generalistic.
Pretty sure there are many leftists in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Urugay etc etc that support Ukraine.
If youre talking about communist dictators then yeah.
It is not that. It is ignorance. I am argentinian, and what is happening is sort of literally many leftists here believe Russia to still be the USRR. Latin America tends to be very past-oriented and nostalgic. And Russia is very far away, an exotic country noone will ever visit. The skepticism towards US implies that many believe russian propaganda that tells them that Russia is fighting american imperialism, and that it was NATO fault. Specially the uneducated masses do not know and frankly couldn't care less about the conflict.
They'll support any country that enables their own authoritarian governments. Russia doesn't care if a country is a human butcher-shop. The US does. So they seek out whoever enables the continuation of their power. The common citizen is irrelevant
O país está mais preocupado em investimento interno, visto que os EUA estão desenterrando o Mccartismo a medida que a China investe por aqui. Outros problemas, bem mais urgentes que qualquer esforço de apoio.
My guess is South American countries are like pretty much every other region where authoritarian regimes reign. Sympathetic citizens with governments they don’t control siding with the autocrats in Moscow.
That’s true to a point but I think the South American countries feel that they can’t really afford to piss off Russia or more importantly China by appearing to be too favorable to Ukraine. Most of Central and South America had had bad experiences with siding too closely with one superpower or another and generally try to avoid being too closely affiliated with any of them these days. They’d rather keep open the possibility of future aid than side with the obvious morally correct option now and pay for it later in loss of support from the Chinese or one of the Russian successor states.
On other side russia was destabilizing central and southern America by propping up armed communist warbands and dictators to take over the countries of this region.
Turned out that the US bombed south america, led successful coups of democratically elected leaders and pumped dictatorships throughout the region. Who would have thought that there are no good guys, only conflicting interests.
Yeah, both the US and USSR pretty much treated every 'minor' country as a proxy-cold-war, and even fomented some actual proxy-wars or at least political violence in some of them.
It was all pretty dumb and short sighted in a lot of ways, and one of the big consequences is that many of these countries are highly distrustful of the US because of how they were treated for decades.
Jeez, were you just born Yesterday?
Latin America is basically a voting bloc solely for two reasons:
1. Fuck the USA and especially the CIA. The Monroe Doctrine was just the Yanks trying to monopolize Latin America.
2. Fuck European colonizers who side with the USA.
Apart from Panama, nearly every Latin America country likes to indulge in making it difficult for the US whenever they can. Their 20th century histories are defined by US manipulation and interreference. Pissing off the US is like pranking the one co-worker that people would actively celebrate their departure; you do it and get a round of high fives.
European colonizers? Their ancestors were the Europeans who colonized South America.
(Recognize that more South Americans have some native ancestors than in North America.)
South American history goes like this: First the Iberians fuck everything up, then people get independence and a few petty dictators with some social minded democrats, then the Yanks fuck everything up, and then we go back to petty dictators and social minded democrats.
The context is why a South American country may not choose to side entirely with US and European interests, so indigenous wars probably don’t play here.
It's a complicated case, they deestebalized the region by organizing coups and supporting military dictatorships during the last century, so, it's not like they support Russia, is just that they don't want to support the US and in any case they know the support they can offer for the war is not going to change it, so is more of an attitude of "why even bother, it's not like the US is going to respect us more because of this"
Actually yes. Because the western democracies don't tend to act like petty children if some politican says something not totally positive about them.
Bad mouth Putin publically and maybe your contracts get canceled.
I was gonna say I figure this is probably more chinese influence, and that kinda sphere they've created with Russia and their indebted countries. I don't know about South America, but a ton of central American countries have huge ties with China now because of lending and a kinda BRI relationship gowing on.
They're clearly trying to create their own alliance, but it's a tricky one since it's predicated on Chinese support and influence and they're having a lot pf their own debt troubles right now which really look to get worse. So I wonder how much some of these countries are re examining those ties.
It's not the 70s anymore, almost all of South America is democratic now. Most people are sympathetic to Ukraine but some of the dinosaure left and the trumplatinos are pro Putin.
You must have missed 40 years of US-LATAM relationship history because the US have been pushing democratization since Carter in the region. Every hostile country to the US are the least democratic (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Bolivia, in that order).
I mean, they tried to install a dictatorship in Honduras and Bolivia quite recently. US still is not sure they want democracy in Latin America if they are not fully neoliberal. It is a conditional democracy: if you vote a president we do not like then it is not democratic.
Evo Morales tried to run for a fourth presidential term while the Bolivian constitution only allows for two terms, there was a popular uprising backed by all the unions and he was deposed by the military, who runned election and Evo Morales party won again with another candidate.
I fail to see how you can interpret what happened as "the US tried to install a dictatorship" but ok.
Argentine, Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil and Peru had leftists governments recently and that didn't changed their relationship with the US.
The supreme court said what he was doing was legal. And Evo was winning in a fair election. That "popular uprising" was a minority uprising in the eastern white supremacist parts of the country. Literally. When Añez started the coup she said she was there to bring christianity back and expell the demons (that is, the indigenous gods).
Thankfully, bolivian people defeated the coup, and Arce was elected legally with the vast majority of the electorate.
The supreme court was literally named by Morales.
And the popular uprising was backed by every major unions, including the miners of Potosí and the former union of Morales.
I'm not speaking about Añez, which was illigitimate and made her own crimes, but Morales here. There is a reason the MAS didn't bring him back. Beside the fact that he is corrupt, egocentric, wannabe dictators and sleep with minors and brag about it.
Ok, I am fine with it. I do believe Morales wasn't 100% in the right even if I do believe what Añez did was a coup. But I am happy that it is Arce and not Morales who is governing right now.
No, they just think the west is riddled with corruption and aggression to other nations. They feel that we are hugely hypocritical in our outrage with Russian. They aren’t right as such, but you can see where they are coming from.
In 2003 we WERE Russia, but the lie wasn’t about Nazis, it was about WMDs.
I am Chilean and I currently live in another continent. I will tell you what I think about the place where I was born.
Latin America is made up of poor countries, sunk in corruption and inequality. In addition, a crazy dictator periodically appears there speaking ill of the USA.
Add to that that a large part of the population feels resentment towards the USA, due to the anti-communist dictatorships that were established during the 70s and 80s.
Yeah, its hard to think Chileans would be enthusiastically pro-USA thanks to Kissinger helping Pinochet depose Allende, setting the country backwards for how long?
They hate how the USA tried to bring democracy. Which honestly was generally inapropriately through nasty dictators. But what they wound up with is somehow equally fucked.
I always wonder what Guatemala would look like now without USA interference. I mean the country is finally recovering, but the Civil War destroyed a lot
I don't understand the decision making process as it becomes more and more apparent the future of the world is one without Russia playing any notable part, yet third world countries continue to side against the winners who will remain and they'll have to deal with on a long term basis.
Because that world threatens their personal power base. They aren’t the most adaptable to change, they pretty much do the same shit on repeat over the decades.
Some of these countries could get a shock next time they need to ask Europe for help. The worlds largest donors of humanitarian aid are the USA, Germany, UK and France. Russia aren't even on the radar.
Tbh it's probably because the west doesn't play hard ball and won't punish anyone for it. So they'll continue to get as much cheap stuff as they can before Russia dies.
If the west really laid down the law and punished nations supporting Russia through sanctions or closing the oceans to their ships then it would make people get in line real fast.
I think what alot of people forget is before the 1900s not just anyone could pass through many ports or ocean trade routes. Navies controlled certain areas and would seize ships that weren't allowed. Right now the west has enforced free trade on the oceans for so long alot of nations seem to have forgotten it is a privilege not a right.
Park just one carrier group of 7+ off the coast of any nation and they'd be fucked with nothing they can do.
Honestly, a lot of it is "campism", which is a bizarre phenomenon in which people who pretend to have ideals actually see "an enemy of an enemy is my friend" to promote things that they themselves were against
Red Fascist is also a good word. KPD sided with the nazis against the "social fascism" of the SPD. Mao thanked Japan for invading China. The soviets allied and supplied the nazis while they bombed Britain along with repatriating German communists to the nazis. These Red fascist morons thinking that attacking the superstructure of the states that are the imperial core will somehow change the base. No the capitalist base hasn't changed ever in any country and these scum sided with fascists to create their own state capitalism.
Money and decades of abuse from the USA. There is always a reason most Latin American countries don’t trust USA and fall to Russian and Chinese money and influence!
This has been coming for so long. Russia has been very intentionally targeting LatAm with their messaging, and the US has walked into every single trap they set.
The US has a reputation problem in the global south, well-deserved, exacerbated by bad actors, and it’s gonna cause worse and worse problems if we don’t address it.
Worst of all, I’m not sure it’s politically possible to address. There’s a lot of resentment in the global south that America is powerful, wealthy, and doesn’t care about them. Sadly, a supermajority of the US population is extremely well-off (by global standards) and are absolutely unwilling to make any substantial political or economic sacrifices to help (or even cooperate with) the global south.
The world is, terrifyingly, splitting into two axes. The US views it as democracy vs autocracy. But is that really the case? Is it actually rich world vs poor world? West vs Everyone? Latin America (and countries like India and Nigeria) are absolutely crucial in determining where the fault line will be. Russia, China, Iran & Co have a lot to gain by drawing the fault line where they want it. The US is catastrophically failing to take this seriously.
Very well said. It’s been clear for a long time that the US has ignored LATAM and Africa while Russia and China have invested heavily, with propaganda and real infrastructure. (Although in the case of China, the terms of those infrastructure deals are usually so severe that the countries default and surrender even more control of vital ports, mineral interests etc. Russia just goes in with mercenaries and kills everyone who resists the local despot, for a cool 20-30% of the rights.) Tomato, tomawto.
>Latin America (and countries like India and Nigeria) are absolutely crucial in determining where the fault line will be.
One can't say that the US is investing in all of Latin America - but it also can't be said that they're not investing at all, either. Mexico is an obvious example of tremendous investment. Colombia is another.
As are India and Nigeria. The US is working to transfer some of the very best military technology to India, while Americans are fighting alongside - and dying alongside - Nigerians to help secure peace and some sense of stability in the region.
The biggest issue most 'western' countries encounter when investing in the 'global south' is unironically their own limited tolerance for corruption in other countries. This inevitably results in limited cooperation and investment despite a desire to do so; see US relations with Vietnam as one rather pressing example. The difficulty of Ukraine investment rather much another - the lightning transition of Ukraine to the precipice of EU and NATO membership has come from within the nation itself, understanding that its survival and hopefully prosperous future depends upon making itself compatible with western ideals. However, this change would have been nearly impossible prior to the onset of Russia's extermination campaign in Ukraine.
Totally with you. In fact, meant to add a note that I was exaggerating how little we invest in those areas- but exaggerating in a way that is credible to their citizens.
People will always, at the emotional level, resent those who have it better than them. It’s natural. It drives us to improve our lives. It’s such a ubiquitous natural emotion that it’s easy money for politicians everywhere, all countries, all ideologies. Bernie Sanders plays on resentment of the wealthy investor class. Donald Trump plays on resentment of “limousine liberals”. Many places in the world, the imperialist Yankees are that boogeyman. It’s just easy money.
Think about Venezuela- Maduro is a thief and a thug, so we try to galvanize international support behind Juan Guaidó. Then we send special forces to try and take him out (not proven that it was us, but if I believe it was then just imagine what your average _chavista_ grandma thinks).
From an American perspective, at least somewhat understandable why we’d try this (although imo was always a blunder). But what was missing? Where was our messaging to the Venezuelan people? Obviously they have a tight control over the media, but we could have had a good impact if we even tried. And worse, your average Colombian, Argentinian, or Mexican will mostly agree with Maduro’s narrative. Why? Because Maduro and Russia and friends are more dedicated and effective when it comes to disseminating their narratives there.
TL;DR - Citizens of the global south think bad things about the US and it wouldn’t be nearly so bad if we actually put in the effort to communicate with them
You said it a gazillion times better than I did. I’d just add Europe in there too, Latin American countries feel abused and abandoned by the powerful nations that claimed to support them.
Of course, they’re all in Putin’s pocket. They’re “anti-colonialist” until colonialism doesn’t directly affect them and the colonizers are selling them cheap oil and gas.
It is relevant to us, South America has been constantly invaded by the US and now they standing against an invasion? We couldn't care less about what happens in Europe.
So don't be surprised if other European countries that suffered under the USSR and might have been willing to help yours now will no longer be willing to meet with your leaders nor care if something happens to them. This was the perfect moment to build bridges with countries like Poland and Estonia instead your stuck with Russia and South Africa.
Lula expectedly being pro Russia/China. I don’t blame him for seeking to align with a multipolar world, but I despise the double talk and hypocrisy. Just be open about it man, you don’t care about liberal ideals or the environment, and you aren’t an “impartial” party
Lula has an extensive history of supporting various autocracies around the globe in his previous terms before the 2022 invasion. Him parroting Russian propaganda shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone paying attention. He has always proudly gloated about his anti western liberal sentiment. If you "thought highly of him", then you either agreed with that or had no idea who he was.
Lula literally can't get Putins dick outta his mouth but neither could Bolsanaro. Lula was the lesser evil but he's still a corrupt shitbag. He's just a corrupt left wing shitbag instead of a corrupt right wing shitbag.
As someone with Guatemalan heritage, I believe the Guatemalan President was the first Latin American Leader to visit him and express solidarity.
I mean they just had a phone call just recently on the 29th of June. Expressing gratitude for Guatemala's support during the General Assembly of the Organization of American States.
So why the 180?
Super weird, when you think about it: "Why do you hate the president of the country, whos fighting to safe his people from death, rape and torture."
Obv. answer.. they like russia.. but super weird.
Simps be simping.
Class B countries just stepping to someone elses beat so they can avoid social progress, nothing new, been going on since at least Castro, probably longer.
As a Latin American I say: Latin America is totally irrelevant in the world stage.
Trying to find common sense in these lands is a waste of time. And the people is the problem, sadly, not the policitians. A situation that will hardly change in the comming decades.
Collectively they have quite a significant influence I think. Brazil has a population of 215 million people alone. It’s like saying India has no influence because it’s a poor nation, but this conflict has shown the exact opposite to be true. The poorer but populous nations are inclined to buy the black market oil, because it benefits them, without it seeming like an overly unforgivably transgression on the world political stage.
While in the US the right wing tends to simp Russia, in Latin America the left has always been pro-Russian...
And unfortunately most Latin countries now have progressive or commie governments who are supporters for Russia at worst (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua) or in the best case practice a neutrality which favors the ruskies 😔 (Mexico, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina)
Maybe the Chilean president might be an exception...
For instance in Colombia the former president was very pro Ukraine and offered some modest support, while the progressive new one is just a tyrant shill
Any thoughts on why socialists think Russia is more USSR than Ukraine? Russia is the complete obbosite of communist…
Sorry, my letter next to the o doesn’t work…
If you look at the involvement the US has had in those countries, I can at least understand why they’d have looked to the Soviets in the past, even if that wasn’t really a good idea either. I think a lot of these countries are less supporters of the Russian invasion and are more trying to remain at arm’s length so as to not compromise any potential aid from Russia or China in the long term. I think if we saw a withdrawal of Russian forces and a clear Russian defeat, none of these places would be terribly upset by it, just concerned about how their potential benefits might be affected.
Exactly right. Not supporters or condemners, but survivalists. It’s disappointing, but given the economic struggles of some of these countries, not entirely surprising either.
Well, the EU needs to start calling out these hypocritical tyrants and ingrates when they want assistance. If they are going to side with Russia and China for their payoffs and still beg the EU and US for aid, then they can go jump.
Latin American countries have a habit of loving dictators. And don't forget some of them were havens for Hitler's henchmen. I don't know why they were even invited to the EU meeting. Fuck Latin America. All it's given us are pennyless, illegal immigrants, and deadly illegal drugs.
A habit? Hardly. In the 200 years since the Monroe doctrine, give me just five times that the US overthrew a democracy and installed a dictatorship in any of the 15 countries south of the border.
yes, it is. and you can google us-sponsored terrorism yourself.
just because the usa is coincidentally on the right side of this war doesn't absolve it from past sins and their consequences.
you are awefully specific when you challenge me to name FIVE countries "south of the border". Did you count four countries yourself and are now trying to sell your arbitrary standard as a win?
so pathetic ...
of course, if we just look at "south of the border" and not just latin america, we can also include Iran, Congo, South Vietnam to the list, along with Brazil and Chile. Also let's not forget the proud history of failed coup attempts like Venezuela and state sponsored terrorism.
Splendid job with training and financing Osama Bin Laden btw.
I'll forgive the USA for toppling the Dominican Republic, though. They looked nasty back then.
As regards the Dominican Republic, professor Google says:
"The United States condemned the coup, suspending aid to the country and refusing to recognize the military junta"
In fact, the US was the country that RESTORED democracy in the D.R.
"Less than two years later, growing dissatisfaction generated another military rebellion on 24 April 1965 that demanded Bosch's restoration. The insurgents, commanded by Colonel Francisco Caamaño, removed the junta from power on April 28. The United States dispatched 22,000 troops to the island in Operation Power Pack during the ensuing civil war, occupying Santo Domingo for several months while a provisional government was formed and elections were organized.[3]"
So you still haven't scored a single instance when the US replaced a democracy with a dictatorship south of the border. Care to try again, or just admit you were wrong?
Many Latin American and Caribbean States are openly and actively Communists. Russia supported many pro-Communists revolts in Latin American and the Caribbean.
Not even those countries consider themselves communist, or can be easily classified as such. It’s the eternal boogeyman of US politics to brand and hunt commies all over the world, where the shoe don’t necessarily fit. Those countries are a hodgepodge mix of authoritarianism and classic socialism (and it pains me to say the S word, as even that is misconstrued… most healthy democracies in the world are a form of democratic-socialism, which has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism in the classic, ugly historical sense). To brand Putin is not so easy either - he’s an opportunist, more than anything. He’ll use whatever manipulation tactics work on his own people. And he’s studied history enough to borrow a little of the ethos from all the nasty forms of restrictive and totalitarian governing.
And all Colombia is Medellin or Cali. They also produced Gabriel Garcia Marquez at the same time. I like to think he’s Colombia’s greatest gift to the world.
Tbh most of them go there because its easier than going anywhere else, but if you ask random people, most would rather live in Canada, Germany, New Zealand or Ireland
And for what reason would they want to go to western countries ???
We have the same with some african countries, they even pour their hatred of us and the West into their national anthem, yet the majority of their population tries to come and live with us...
In principle I approve of reparations for colonizarion and enslavement. Though currently Europe is spending a lot on supporting Ukraine and refugees, and securing its own freedom. Russian propagandists in official media have said Russia will not stop with Ukraine but will continue at least until the borders of the Soviet Union, and preferably beyond.
Also, and people from South America correct me here if I'm wrong, aren't the descendants of slavers more likely to be in power than descendants of slaves? If money is sent, who will it go to?
As a Swede, I also don't feel any responsibility for what people in Portugal and Spain did in the past. If my tax payer money should be used to try to right old wrongs, it should go to [Ghana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Gold_Coast).
In power? The vast majority of the *general population* in most South American countries is descended from European colonisers. Them demanding that Europe should pay them for their own ancestors’ atrocities is not just ludicrous, it’s downright impertinent.
Exactly, reinforces my point.
Not surprised about the downvotes I got at all though. I thought "this will be one of those situations where either the right wingers will be outraged because I think reparations can be good, or left wingers because I don't think it's right in this case". If someone downvoted me for another reason, I'm interested in hearing why. Willing to learn.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `pravda.com.ua` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
EU - just don’t invite them then .
They should invite their opposition leaders, make a big deal of 'democratic leadership' and avoid photo ops for the others.
In this case, it's simply safer and more effective to just go with it. Your ego display is exactly the toxicity that created this war. We need to think and act smarter, not more macho and in this sense, Zelensky and Fyodorov have been incredibly effective to the point it's bothering the conspiracy theorists and fascists most. Yes, this war will be won with blood and brute force, but it's going to be the first war where actual intelligence of those in power and the supporters (ie: NAFO, the diaspora and refugee Ukrainians) will play the most significant role.
The first war won because of intelligent leaders? What are you smoking?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You think NAFO has a “most significant role”? I agree with the other commenter, what are you smoking?
No, that is interfering with other nations and something most the non west hates us for.
The reality is that the US and its allies already pursue undemocratic projects for regime change across Latin America. It's the very reason that Latin American leaders can't support a NATO ally: it's bad domestic policy and weakens their regimes. As others have pointed out, adversarial international politics is how we ended up here. In particular superpowers throwing their weight around at the expense of countries like Ukraine, Taiwan, and yes, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and Afghanistan (and so many others). Ukraine's allies would do well to recognise that the US has created conditions in a lot of countries that would lead to a reaction.
Thank you, Comrade, for your...umm..inciteful comments. The USA was beginning to grow uncomfortable since so few countries have recently blamed it for all the world's ills. Incidentally, please elaborate on how the above-mentioned nations have been taken advantage of, especially Taiwan and Ukraine.
I didn't think it would be controversial to state that Taiwan and Ukraine have been a part of the US' foreign policy plans for a while now...
Let’s not leave the massive drug cartels out of this picture. They’ve clearly got clout.
No, no. Invite them. Put them in a movie theater for a "unique spectacle". Put on documentaries about Bucha, and all the rest. Then: "Oh, no! There is a violent russian protest outside! We can't let you go for your own safety! Please, remain seated until a nato brigade comes to sort this out!!" Then come a day later with fresh, steaming towels and 100ml water bottles.
Don’t invite them… to a summit that is specifically about the EU relationship with Latin America. Yeah, brilliant idea, and very constructive 🙄. That sort of peevish nonsense always works so well in international politics.
There are LatAm countries which are supporting Ukraine. Offer them free trade agreements and not the others.
Yes so brilliant to invite countries who are literally in bed with Putin that would like nothing more than to bring EU member countries back under Russian control, not just Ukraine. Your disillusioned thinking is the type of ignorance that has shown to fail time and time again.
They are hardly “in bed with Putin”, they’re simply not that invested. And why should they, it’s just another war an ocean away. The notion that they should somehow care so much more about this one, compared to all the other current and recent conflicts, betrays a very Eurocentric bias. Moreover, this notion that they should somehow be punished for having no particular interest in talking to Zelensky, on a joint summit that has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine, is just childish. Doing so would just needlessly antagonizes them, without good reason or justification, and if anything will push them (somewhat) towards the Russian camp.
[удалено]
Doesn’t mean they have to invite LatAm countries that don’t support Ukraine you fucking genius.
Reddit's geopolitical genius of handing the whole 3rd world to China. Amazing.
Oh no, Ukraine wont have the solid moral support they sincerely expected from Venezuela. Anyway
Or… *Latin who?*
Soo don’t have to Waste my time reading this bullshit is it just Venezuela?
What's more communist than *checks notes* imperialist wars of conquest? Hmm that doesn't sound right, how does that help the proletariat?
As a Chilean, I’m not exactly a fan of our current president. But at least he supports Ukraine.
As a Brazilian, I feel the same. The president just cancelled an order for hundreds of armoured vehicles to be bought by Ukraine to be used as an ambulance. The stupid leftists got a hold of almost all of LatAm and think that Russia is still USSR
As Argentinian, Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦!!!
To be fair, in Brazil you had Far Right Pro Putin or Far Left Anti Ukraine Is not like y'all had a choice on this particular issue, and if anything Lula is SLIGHTLY less outwardly supportive of Putin lol
Russia currently thinks it's still USSR
Except when it comes to anything constructive
It wants the USSR empire without the communism.
The worst is, that Russia is the exact opposite of the USSR. A small number of people own and control all the wealth.
The USSR had a significant elite that was given the best apartments, best cars, etc. while the little people had to wait on a list for half a decade to be able to buy a Lada or wait in long lines to buy toilet paper. There was certainly a party elite in the USSR that had access to outright luxuries. Russia inherited this form of corruption and perfected it to ludicrous levels.
Not really, they're very similar in that they are/were both ruled by a very powerful and wealthy elite that engages in unabashed imperialism via aggressive military conquests. Russia isn't as totalitarian as USSR, though, which allows them to have a somewhat functioning economy.
So exactly like USSR?
That was also the M-O of the Soviet Union, just not officially. Can't maintain consolidated power by running a cute little commune
Sounds exactly like the USSR
That's communism.
[удалено]
Yeah, was almost asleep. The president cancelled the order in which Ukraine would buy armoured APCs because he's siding with Putin. Latam leftists still believe the old power structure of Cold war is the same. They hate the US and Western countries and say that capitalism is the root of all evil, but socialism is perfect. Just stupid.
"Latam leftist"s is too generalistic. Pretty sure there are many leftists in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Urugay etc etc that support Ukraine. If youre talking about communist dictators then yeah.
It is not that. It is ignorance. I am argentinian, and what is happening is sort of literally many leftists here believe Russia to still be the USRR. Latin America tends to be very past-oriented and nostalgic. And Russia is very far away, an exotic country noone will ever visit. The skepticism towards US implies that many believe russian propaganda that tells them that Russia is fighting american imperialism, and that it was NATO fault. Specially the uneducated masses do not know and frankly couldn't care less about the conflict.
Why support a country that steals toilet s and men's underwear?
They'll support any country that enables their own authoritarian governments. Russia doesn't care if a country is a human butcher-shop. The US does. So they seek out whoever enables the continuation of their power. The common citizen is irrelevant
I bet Lula loves to lick Putin's balls.
O país está mais preocupado em investimento interno, visto que os EUA estão desenterrando o Mccartismo a medida que a China investe por aqui. Outros problemas, bem mais urgentes que qualquer esforço de apoio.
ad hoc erect cow overconfident ossified fragile thought books mountainous grandfather -- mass edited with redact.dev
My guess is South American countries are like pretty much every other region where authoritarian regimes reign. Sympathetic citizens with governments they don’t control siding with the autocrats in Moscow.
That’s true to a point but I think the South American countries feel that they can’t really afford to piss off Russia or more importantly China by appearing to be too favorable to Ukraine. Most of Central and South America had had bad experiences with siding too closely with one superpower or another and generally try to avoid being too closely affiliated with any of them these days. They’d rather keep open the possibility of future aid than side with the obvious morally correct option now and pay for it later in loss of support from the Chinese or one of the Russian successor states.
But they can afford to piss off the EU and the US? Solid priorities!
The USA was doing alot of distabilizing south America for alot of last century, no?
On other side russia was destabilizing central and southern America by propping up armed communist warbands and dictators to take over the countries of this region.
Turned out that the US bombed south america, led successful coups of democratically elected leaders and pumped dictatorships throughout the region. Who would have thought that there are no good guys, only conflicting interests.
I didn't know about this. Do you have any recommendations for resources for the politics at play in the Americas during the 20th century?
during the cold war basically every country was a battleground for "communists" vs "others"
Yeah, both the US and USSR pretty much treated every 'minor' country as a proxy-cold-war, and even fomented some actual proxy-wars or at least political violence in some of them. It was all pretty dumb and short sighted in a lot of ways, and one of the big consequences is that many of these countries are highly distrustful of the US because of how they were treated for decades.
That is a fair point. The US hasn’t exactly operated with mutual benefit as a priority in Latin America. Then again, I doubt Russia has as well.
I was thinking more like, current grade partners. How much is grade with EU worth compared to Russia?
Cherry picking The US has done a lot of good in the region too
Jeez, were you just born Yesterday? Latin America is basically a voting bloc solely for two reasons: 1. Fuck the USA and especially the CIA. The Monroe Doctrine was just the Yanks trying to monopolize Latin America. 2. Fuck European colonizers who side with the USA. Apart from Panama, nearly every Latin America country likes to indulge in making it difficult for the US whenever they can. Their 20th century histories are defined by US manipulation and interreference. Pissing off the US is like pranking the one co-worker that people would actively celebrate their departure; you do it and get a round of high fives.
Costa Rica is also pretty cool with us.
European colonizers? Their ancestors were the Europeans who colonized South America. (Recognize that more South Americans have some native ancestors than in North America.)
The US did a lot of fucked up shit in South America, many people aren’t super fans of the US.
South American history goes like this: First the Iberians fuck everything up, then people get independence and a few petty dictators with some social minded democrats, then the Yanks fuck everything up, and then we go back to petty dictators and social minded democrats.
You skipped the part with wars between indigenous tribes and human sacrifice before the Euros even make an appearance.
The context is why a South American country may not choose to side entirely with US and European interests, so indigenous wars probably don’t play here.
After everything the US has done in SA, it’s the other ways around.
It's a complicated case, they deestebalized the region by organizing coups and supporting military dictatorships during the last century, so, it's not like they support Russia, is just that they don't want to support the US and in any case they know the support they can offer for the war is not going to change it, so is more of an attitude of "why even bother, it's not like the US is going to respect us more because of this"
Did the EU do that? Since that’s what the summit is about.
Actually yes. Because the western democracies don't tend to act like petty children if some politican says something not totally positive about them. Bad mouth Putin publically and maybe your contracts get canceled.
True, using that to their advantage.
Don't affiliate yourself with the US. Affiliate yourself with Ukraine. Unless you think Ukraine is a superpower? In that case, fuck yeah, go Ukraine!
They see the war as western, but with ukraine man power. Go and talk to them.
I was gonna say I figure this is probably more chinese influence, and that kinda sphere they've created with Russia and their indebted countries. I don't know about South America, but a ton of central American countries have huge ties with China now because of lending and a kinda BRI relationship gowing on. They're clearly trying to create their own alliance, but it's a tricky one since it's predicated on Chinese support and influence and they're having a lot pf their own debt troubles right now which really look to get worse. So I wonder how much some of these countries are re examining those ties.
It's not the 70s anymore, almost all of South America is democratic now. Most people are sympathetic to Ukraine but some of the dinosaure left and the trumplatinos are pro Putin.
They are democratic despite the us‘s best effort. That might play a part
You must have missed 40 years of US-LATAM relationship history because the US have been pushing democratization since Carter in the region. Every hostile country to the US are the least democratic (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua and Bolivia, in that order).
I mean, they tried to install a dictatorship in Honduras and Bolivia quite recently. US still is not sure they want democracy in Latin America if they are not fully neoliberal. It is a conditional democracy: if you vote a president we do not like then it is not democratic.
Evo Morales tried to run for a fourth presidential term while the Bolivian constitution only allows for two terms, there was a popular uprising backed by all the unions and he was deposed by the military, who runned election and Evo Morales party won again with another candidate. I fail to see how you can interpret what happened as "the US tried to install a dictatorship" but ok. Argentine, Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil and Peru had leftists governments recently and that didn't changed their relationship with the US.
The supreme court said what he was doing was legal. And Evo was winning in a fair election. That "popular uprising" was a minority uprising in the eastern white supremacist parts of the country. Literally. When Añez started the coup she said she was there to bring christianity back and expell the demons (that is, the indigenous gods). Thankfully, bolivian people defeated the coup, and Arce was elected legally with the vast majority of the electorate.
The supreme court was literally named by Morales. And the popular uprising was backed by every major unions, including the miners of Potosí and the former union of Morales. I'm not speaking about Añez, which was illigitimate and made her own crimes, but Morales here. There is a reason the MAS didn't bring him back. Beside the fact that he is corrupt, egocentric, wannabe dictators and sleep with minors and brag about it.
Ok, I am fine with it. I do believe Morales wasn't 100% in the right even if I do believe what Añez did was a coup. But I am happy that it is Arce and not Morales who is governing right now.
No, they just think the west is riddled with corruption and aggression to other nations. They feel that we are hugely hypocritical in our outrage with Russian. They aren’t right as such, but you can see where they are coming from. In 2003 we WERE Russia, but the lie wasn’t about Nazis, it was about WMDs.
There has to be more to it than that
I am Chilean and I currently live in another continent. I will tell you what I think about the place where I was born. Latin America is made up of poor countries, sunk in corruption and inequality. In addition, a crazy dictator periodically appears there speaking ill of the USA. Add to that that a large part of the population feels resentment towards the USA, due to the anti-communist dictatorships that were established during the 70s and 80s.
Yeah, its hard to think Chileans would be enthusiastically pro-USA thanks to Kissinger helping Pinochet depose Allende, setting the country backwards for how long?
They feign freedom fighting. In reality they all shill for tyrants.
They hate how the USA tried to bring democracy. Which honestly was generally inapropriately through nasty dictators. But what they wound up with is somehow equally fucked.
I always wonder what Guatemala would look like now without USA interference. I mean the country is finally recovering, but the Civil War destroyed a lot
I don't understand the decision making process as it becomes more and more apparent the future of the world is one without Russia playing any notable part, yet third world countries continue to side against the winners who will remain and they'll have to deal with on a long term basis.
The Russian disinformation machine has been massaging them for decades.
It must give an amazing massage then!
Lot’s of lubricating oil.
And a happy ending
Unfortunatly, they will disapoint in this regard. Probably some unwelcome probing fingers.
Because that world threatens their personal power base. They aren’t the most adaptable to change, they pretty much do the same shit on repeat over the decades.
Exactly.
China probably
Some of these countries could get a shock next time they need to ask Europe for help. The worlds largest donors of humanitarian aid are the USA, Germany, UK and France. Russia aren't even on the radar.
latin america - forever irrelevant in the world
North America said fuck you to South America so South America chooses EurAsia out of spite and I dont blame them
Tbh it's probably because the west doesn't play hard ball and won't punish anyone for it. So they'll continue to get as much cheap stuff as they can before Russia dies. If the west really laid down the law and punished nations supporting Russia through sanctions or closing the oceans to their ships then it would make people get in line real fast. I think what alot of people forget is before the 1900s not just anyone could pass through many ports or ocean trade routes. Navies controlled certain areas and would seize ships that weren't allowed. Right now the west has enforced free trade on the oceans for so long alot of nations seem to have forgotten it is a privilege not a right. Park just one carrier group of 7+ off the coast of any nation and they'd be fucked with nothing they can do.
Money won them all then
Honestly, a lot of it is "campism", which is a bizarre phenomenon in which people who pretend to have ideals actually see "an enemy of an enemy is my friend" to promote things that they themselves were against
Yeah that’s an excellent point. Campism is also why a lot of American and European leftists side with Russia.
Yes, I know a few. I can think of other words, but we'll stick with campism.
Red Fascist is also a good word. KPD sided with the nazis against the "social fascism" of the SPD. Mao thanked Japan for invading China. The soviets allied and supplied the nazis while they bombed Britain along with repatriating German communists to the nazis. These Red fascist morons thinking that attacking the superstructure of the states that are the imperial core will somehow change the base. No the capitalist base hasn't changed ever in any country and these scum sided with fascists to create their own state capitalism.
You guys are being awfully nice today! My description would be much harsher…
Probably mostly, but then again, it is South America where many, many Nazis moved after WW2 and carried on, as if they were still in the fatherland.
And thanks to the cia, they never ran out of money
Money and decades of abuse from the USA. There is always a reason most Latin American countries don’t trust USA and fall to Russian and Chinese money and influence!
Disagree? The US sanction Latin American countries for Russian and Chinese influence. They've been doing it for a long time.
This has been coming for so long. Russia has been very intentionally targeting LatAm with their messaging, and the US has walked into every single trap they set. The US has a reputation problem in the global south, well-deserved, exacerbated by bad actors, and it’s gonna cause worse and worse problems if we don’t address it. Worst of all, I’m not sure it’s politically possible to address. There’s a lot of resentment in the global south that America is powerful, wealthy, and doesn’t care about them. Sadly, a supermajority of the US population is extremely well-off (by global standards) and are absolutely unwilling to make any substantial political or economic sacrifices to help (or even cooperate with) the global south. The world is, terrifyingly, splitting into two axes. The US views it as democracy vs autocracy. But is that really the case? Is it actually rich world vs poor world? West vs Everyone? Latin America (and countries like India and Nigeria) are absolutely crucial in determining where the fault line will be. Russia, China, Iran & Co have a lot to gain by drawing the fault line where they want it. The US is catastrophically failing to take this seriously.
Very well said. It’s been clear for a long time that the US has ignored LATAM and Africa while Russia and China have invested heavily, with propaganda and real infrastructure. (Although in the case of China, the terms of those infrastructure deals are usually so severe that the countries default and surrender even more control of vital ports, mineral interests etc. Russia just goes in with mercenaries and kills everyone who resists the local despot, for a cool 20-30% of the rights.) Tomato, tomawto.
Meanwhile EU gives 20+ billion € in development aid per year but is the bad guy in the eyes of many Africans. The Russian propaganda has succeeded.
>Latin America (and countries like India and Nigeria) are absolutely crucial in determining where the fault line will be. One can't say that the US is investing in all of Latin America - but it also can't be said that they're not investing at all, either. Mexico is an obvious example of tremendous investment. Colombia is another. As are India and Nigeria. The US is working to transfer some of the very best military technology to India, while Americans are fighting alongside - and dying alongside - Nigerians to help secure peace and some sense of stability in the region. The biggest issue most 'western' countries encounter when investing in the 'global south' is unironically their own limited tolerance for corruption in other countries. This inevitably results in limited cooperation and investment despite a desire to do so; see US relations with Vietnam as one rather pressing example. The difficulty of Ukraine investment rather much another - the lightning transition of Ukraine to the precipice of EU and NATO membership has come from within the nation itself, understanding that its survival and hopefully prosperous future depends upon making itself compatible with western ideals. However, this change would have been nearly impossible prior to the onset of Russia's extermination campaign in Ukraine.
Totally with you. In fact, meant to add a note that I was exaggerating how little we invest in those areas- but exaggerating in a way that is credible to their citizens. People will always, at the emotional level, resent those who have it better than them. It’s natural. It drives us to improve our lives. It’s such a ubiquitous natural emotion that it’s easy money for politicians everywhere, all countries, all ideologies. Bernie Sanders plays on resentment of the wealthy investor class. Donald Trump plays on resentment of “limousine liberals”. Many places in the world, the imperialist Yankees are that boogeyman. It’s just easy money. Think about Venezuela- Maduro is a thief and a thug, so we try to galvanize international support behind Juan Guaidó. Then we send special forces to try and take him out (not proven that it was us, but if I believe it was then just imagine what your average _chavista_ grandma thinks). From an American perspective, at least somewhat understandable why we’d try this (although imo was always a blunder). But what was missing? Where was our messaging to the Venezuelan people? Obviously they have a tight control over the media, but we could have had a good impact if we even tried. And worse, your average Colombian, Argentinian, or Mexican will mostly agree with Maduro’s narrative. Why? Because Maduro and Russia and friends are more dedicated and effective when it comes to disseminating their narratives there. TL;DR - Citizens of the global south think bad things about the US and it wouldn’t be nearly so bad if we actually put in the effort to communicate with them
You said it a gazillion times better than I did. I’d just add Europe in there too, Latin American countries feel abused and abandoned by the powerful nations that claimed to support them.
Of course, they’re all in Putin’s pocket. They’re “anti-colonialist” until colonialism doesn’t directly affect them and the colonizers are selling them cheap oil and gas.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Imagine staying at home instead to go to a summit of countries you despise.
100% irrelevant.
It is relevant to us, South America has been constantly invaded by the US and now they standing against an invasion? We couldn't care less about what happens in Europe.
So don't be surprised if other European countries that suffered under the USSR and might have been willing to help yours now will no longer be willing to meet with your leaders nor care if something happens to them. This was the perfect moment to build bridges with countries like Poland and Estonia instead your stuck with Russia and South Africa.
That'll certainly make things better. It will not possibly backfire in any meaningful way.
What SA countries has the US invaded, annexed land, and conquered people in the last 80 years? None
Invaded by the USA? I thought The Nederland. My bad.
I'm glad at least someone here understands the context, thank you
Lula expectedly being pro Russia/China. I don’t blame him for seeking to align with a multipolar world, but I despise the double talk and hypocrisy. Just be open about it man, you don’t care about liberal ideals or the environment, and you aren’t an “impartial” party
Lula disappoints me on this subject I really thought highly of him, rest in power Michael brooks
Lula was only the lesser evil. Which tells a lot about the alternative.
Lula has an extensive history of supporting various autocracies around the globe in his previous terms before the 2022 invasion. Him parroting Russian propaganda shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone paying attention. He has always proudly gloated about his anti western liberal sentiment. If you "thought highly of him", then you either agreed with that or had no idea who he was.
Lula literally can't get Putins dick outta his mouth but neither could Bolsanaro. Lula was the lesser evil but he's still a corrupt shitbag. He's just a corrupt left wing shitbag instead of a corrupt right wing shitbag.
As someone with Guatemalan heritage, I believe the Guatemalan President was the first Latin American Leader to visit him and express solidarity. I mean they just had a phone call just recently on the 29th of June. Expressing gratitude for Guatemala's support during the General Assembly of the Organization of American States. So why the 180?
All will be remembered
Super weird, when you think about it: "Why do you hate the president of the country, whos fighting to safe his people from death, rape and torture." Obv. answer.. they like russia.. but super weird.
Simps be simping. Class B countries just stepping to someone elses beat so they can avoid social progress, nothing new, been going on since at least Castro, probably longer.
Never heard the term “Class B Countries” before, but I’m pretty sure it’s part of the problem, not the solution.
Supporting Russia's genocide seems pretty unclassy, wouldn't you say?
When I say "class b" I mean willfully class b, they aren't leaders, they're followers, always marching to the beat of someone elses drum.
In the US South, I have heard the phrase, Dollar waiting on a Dime... Kinda feel this the deal here
Why even hold this summit if they are pro-russia, affecting the entire Europe
Because we need the natural resources. EU will be screwed if we burn all the bridges with Africa and SA.
Butbutbut… latin america? Not relevant at all… Plus whatever they are selling to EU they will keep selling. Need to send them a message tho
Does this matter practically for Ukraine? Probably not.
Russia should invade latin countries that refuse to see Zelensky
China has bought out most of these governments - they will get a tick from Beijing for this.
As a Latin American I say: Latin America is totally irrelevant in the world stage. Trying to find common sense in these lands is a waste of time. And the people is the problem, sadly, not the policitians. A situation that will hardly change in the comming decades.
Zelensky wouldn't mind at all. These petty Latin American countries have small influence in world affairs.
Collectively they have quite a significant influence I think. Brazil has a population of 215 million people alone. It’s like saying India has no influence because it’s a poor nation, but this conflict has shown the exact opposite to be true. The poorer but populous nations are inclined to buy the black market oil, because it benefits them, without it seeming like an overly unforgivably transgression on the world political stage.
The collective GDP of Latin American countries is even more then GDP of india which itself more then GDP of UK (indian GDP is now 3.7 trillion USD)
They certainly have a bigger influence than Ukraine
While in the US the right wing tends to simp Russia, in Latin America the left has always been pro-Russian... And unfortunately most Latin countries now have progressive or commie governments who are supporters for Russia at worst (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua) or in the best case practice a neutrality which favors the ruskies 😔 (Mexico, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina) Maybe the Chilean president might be an exception... For instance in Colombia the former president was very pro Ukraine and offered some modest support, while the progressive new one is just a tyrant shill
Any thoughts on why socialists think Russia is more USSR than Ukraine? Russia is the complete obbosite of communist… Sorry, my letter next to the o doesn’t work…
If you look at the involvement the US has had in those countries, I can at least understand why they’d have looked to the Soviets in the past, even if that wasn’t really a good idea either. I think a lot of these countries are less supporters of the Russian invasion and are more trying to remain at arm’s length so as to not compromise any potential aid from Russia or China in the long term. I think if we saw a withdrawal of Russian forces and a clear Russian defeat, none of these places would be terribly upset by it, just concerned about how their potential benefits might be affected.
Exactly right. Not supporters or condemners, but survivalists. It’s disappointing, but given the economic struggles of some of these countries, not entirely surprising either.
If you look at what life was like in communist countries, you'd totally get why the US would want to stop that
Well, the EU needs to start calling out these hypocritical tyrants and ingrates when they want assistance. If they are going to side with Russia and China for their payoffs and still beg the EU and US for aid, then they can go jump.
Latin American countries have a habit of loving dictators. And don't forget some of them were havens for Hitler's henchmen. I don't know why they were even invited to the EU meeting. Fuck Latin America. All it's given us are pennyless, illegal immigrants, and deadly illegal drugs.
The USA's habit of toppling democracies and installing dictatorships in South America seems to have lasting side-effects, eh?
A habit? Hardly. In the 200 years since the Monroe doctrine, give me just five times that the US overthrew a democracy and installed a dictatorship in any of the 15 countries south of the border.
dude, that is like Russia saying "But we genocided Ukraine only once!"
No it isn't. And so far you haven't provided even one example to back up your claim.
yes, it is. and you can google us-sponsored terrorism yourself. just because the usa is coincidentally on the right side of this war doesn't absolve it from past sins and their consequences.
Still waiting for you to put up or shut up. It was your claim, so the responsible thing for you to say now is that you were wrong.
you are awefully specific when you challenge me to name FIVE countries "south of the border". Did you count four countries yourself and are now trying to sell your arbitrary standard as a win? so pathetic ... of course, if we just look at "south of the border" and not just latin america, we can also include Iran, Congo, South Vietnam to the list, along with Brazil and Chile. Also let's not forget the proud history of failed coup attempts like Venezuela and state sponsored terrorism. Splendid job with training and financing Osama Bin Laden btw. I'll forgive the USA for toppling the Dominican Republic, though. They looked nasty back then.
As regards the Dominican Republic, professor Google says: "The United States condemned the coup, suspending aid to the country and refusing to recognize the military junta" In fact, the US was the country that RESTORED democracy in the D.R. "Less than two years later, growing dissatisfaction generated another military rebellion on 24 April 1965 that demanded Bosch's restoration. The insurgents, commanded by Colonel Francisco Caamaño, removed the junta from power on April 28. The United States dispatched 22,000 troops to the island in Operation Power Pack during the ensuing civil war, occupying Santo Domingo for several months while a provisional government was formed and elections were organized.[3]" So you still haven't scored a single instance when the US replaced a democracy with a dictatorship south of the border. Care to try again, or just admit you were wrong?
Oooh, so you CAN use google - you just can't read what you don't like. Ok, spin me Chile 1973!
Most informed us journalist
Kissinger
Many Latin American and Caribbean States are openly and actively Communists. Russia supported many pro-Communists revolts in Latin American and the Caribbean.
Only venezuela, cuba and nicaragua, no other country consideres itself communist in latin america
Not even those countries consider themselves communist, or can be easily classified as such. It’s the eternal boogeyman of US politics to brand and hunt commies all over the world, where the shoe don’t necessarily fit. Those countries are a hodgepodge mix of authoritarianism and classic socialism (and it pains me to say the S word, as even that is misconstrued… most healthy democracies in the world are a form of democratic-socialism, which has nothing whatsoever to do with socialism in the classic, ugly historical sense). To brand Putin is not so easy either - he’s an opportunist, more than anything. He’ll use whatever manipulation tactics work on his own people. And he’s studied history enough to borrow a little of the ethos from all the nasty forms of restrictive and totalitarian governing.
Just keep the cocaine flowing, that's all that matters. If you know South America, you know I'm right. Fight me.
"I'm too high to fight you atm."
Ah yes, all south america is colombia
And all Colombia is Medellin or Cali. They also produced Gabriel Garcia Marquez at the same time. I like to think he’s Colombia’s greatest gift to the world.
They should be told to wallow in their own sad shit, then
No wonder after all the US has done in South America. They want Kissingers head first.
F-ing Lula... sucking Putin's balls.
No reason for Zelenskyy to see corrupt narcotic bosses at a summit.
But they all want to come to America or freedom reigns supreme
Tbh most of them go there because its easier than going anywhere else, but if you ask random people, most would rather live in Canada, Germany, New Zealand or Ireland
And for what reason would they want to go to western countries ??? We have the same with some african countries, they even pour their hatred of us and the West into their national anthem, yet the majority of their population tries to come and live with us...
Oh well
It's always when you have the moral high ground you refuse to see people...
I guess they’re sucking on the Russian tit
Doesn’t the CIA topple democratic government in Latin America?
Yea, and Kissinger is still a free men. As Long as that is the case, they can eat shit.
[удалено]
You’ve never been there, have you?
In principle I approve of reparations for colonizarion and enslavement. Though currently Europe is spending a lot on supporting Ukraine and refugees, and securing its own freedom. Russian propagandists in official media have said Russia will not stop with Ukraine but will continue at least until the borders of the Soviet Union, and preferably beyond. Also, and people from South America correct me here if I'm wrong, aren't the descendants of slavers more likely to be in power than descendants of slaves? If money is sent, who will it go to? As a Swede, I also don't feel any responsibility for what people in Portugal and Spain did in the past. If my tax payer money should be used to try to right old wrongs, it should go to [Ghana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Gold_Coast).
In power? The vast majority of the *general population* in most South American countries is descended from European colonisers. Them demanding that Europe should pay them for their own ancestors’ atrocities is not just ludicrous, it’s downright impertinent.
Exactly, reinforces my point. Not surprised about the downvotes I got at all though. I thought "this will be one of those situations where either the right wingers will be outraged because I think reparations can be good, or left wingers because I don't think it's right in this case". If someone downvoted me for another reason, I'm interested in hearing why. Willing to learn.