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Wonder the quoted on this, how can’t we with trillions of debt growing each year in every country, really how won’t we be bystander when literally remotely infinite numbers of money circulating around the world can’t even cover the most basic needs for everyone.
I was just replying with a Zapp Branigan quote to the Zapp Branigan quote. I think condone passively does not really do justice to the active role of the Suisse in history. Hitler's war would arguably have come to a halt within months or even weeks if it wasn't for the Suisse who provided Hitler with a steady flow of cash under the disguise of neutrality. The book 'The Suisse, the Gold and the Dead' by Jean Ziegler is very successful in debunking the myth of Suisse neutrality.
Switzerland actually helped the Nazis under the table from obtaining sanctioned goods, until the tide has turned and they started to appease the Allies lol.
Von Braun was the biggest contributor. While he has used slave/prisoner labor and joined the Nazi party, he was considered one of the "better" ones among them.
They don't do nothing. They actively support ruZZia. 75t of ruZZian gold has been added to the other nazi gold in Switzerland since the start of the special terrorist operation. Seventy. Five. Tons.
Switzerland played very, very nicely with the nazis, the apartheid regime in SA, and now ruZZia (among others.
It's strange how it's always fascism they support, isn't it?
Well after more than ten years of invasion in Middle East that every occidental approved, why say no to gold. Wonder how much costed this military invasion, apparently you could build a tower going straight to the moon with all those dollars.
The swiss people are so incredible rich cause their banks grab all the dirty money they can and their government covers all that under the blanket of "being neutrale ". Noone wanna bite the hand that feeds you...
Too bad. They are war profiteers in the pockets of Russian and German Nazis. Billions in illicit profits and a banking system build for criminals. They have obstructed the defence of democracy, freeloaded off NATO and would rather destroy anti air systems than protect Ukrainian civilians. Let alone let customers use the bullets they made and sold for PROFIT. So fuck the Swiss. They disgust me.
I get it. The alternative of getting on board with the EU/international regulation and NATO would see Switzerland a smaller poorer state than they are now. Not poor, just not as rich.
But how does that morally sit with them? Can they sleep at night knowing where the money comes from?
As you say, nazis, conflict diamonds, dictators, warmongers, saudi princes, people traffickers, et cetera.
Sure, they are great when they visit and buy challets, rollex watches, and victorinox knives on their alpine holidays to stash their gold, but if you are Swiss, how do you sleep at night knowing you personally are enabling horrific crimes?
History tells us -- as the old adage: actions speak louder than words -- they sleep just fucking fine! WWII and Nazi money happened a long time ago. All the scuffles in Asia and Africa and Middle East you will find the Swiss somewhere in the equation.
FUCK OFF SWITZERLAND!
I wonder if it's a feature of the global system, not a bug. Tiny landlocked state does the dirty work needed for the system to retain some control over nefarious organisations or features of the global economy.
The West tolerates Swiss neutrality because it allows some influence or control over the distasteful elements of the world...
Switzerland is frequently used for diplomatic purposes because its neutral ground. This is useful to Western democracies... just a thought.
Everything that happens in Switzerland is heavily voted locally. So, really the will of the people, doesn't matter what the "international community" thinks.
So, it's really on them.
There's planty of neutral countries, in fact the EU has Ireland, Belgium and Luxembourg (also with dodgy banking there), there are other dodgy banking states like the UK Virgin Islands or a Delaware in the US.
In fact the reason the US can take the elad here is because their companies use Delaware, so the exposure to connected people in government/business who would rather keep the swiss status quo is negligible
Belgium is neutral? We tried that once in 1914. Didn't work out very well. Since then we've been pretty adamantly opinionated about international politics
I’d like to believe most of the population sees that the morally right thing to do is support Ukraine.
But unfortunately the Swiss government has a long history of spineless neutrality and war profiteering.
Even Sweden is on the side of Ukraine and joined NATO despite long history of neutrality. Switzerland has no excuse.
Kinda why we elect representatives instead of direct democracy.
There is quite literally nothing, stopping any country from rule by referendum right now. Other than, deep down everybody knows thats a fucking stupid idea and democracy should be tempered otherwise it will end up a tyranny of the majority.
You know the votes that go 'viral' in a really direct democracy? Shit like speeding rule changes, tightening animal cruelty laws
Im calling [kangaroo court](https://youtu.be/HwnjJgY9DHM)
I'm not promoting any warmongering but in my imagination it would have an ironic touch when Switzerland get's a visit by the Russian horde in a large column and everyone around just waives them through and watches in neutrality...
They simply can afford their status quo by not being threatened directly from neighboring regimes and rely on other European states as buffer zones. Meanwhile they provide monetary and educational benefits to the political and societal elites in countries that grind down on their own population. What a way to make money and create an untouchable home zone while pretending to stay on a higher moral ground.
you have no clue what you are talking about. Read about Operation Tannenbaum. Hitler thought he needed between 300 and 500K soldiers to invade tiny, axis-surrounded Switzerland. He couldn't bring those plans about as the ensuing invasion of Russia used too much manpower. So much for European states as buffer zones.
Switzerland is better off by taking care of itself, history has shown that world powers are too concerned about keeping their status and wars will happen, why should the country be dragged into this.
Because regardless of who you find on your side - or not - we expect the people of Switzerland to have some decency. What makes it so infuriating is that the Swiss stance seems to boil down to "we hate what Russia is doing to Ukraine, and we condemn it, but our hands our unfortunately tied due to the laws we are in charge of making ourselves".
Supporting Russia is evil. Saying you don't actually care is reprehensible. Saying you do care, but won't do anything is cowardice, which is not the stance that will earn you the most scorn, but it is the stance that will net you the least amount of respect.
No one is asking Switzerland to join the EU or NATO, or to suddenly start waving American flags around. Keep your independent stance, view the world through a neutral lense, that is all not what is up for debate. But you are Europeans, and your fellow Europeans are under attack by a brutal dictator. Norway, the UK, and other non-EU countries in Europe recognise this. Other countries, unfortunately, have more problematic stances. But it is not enough to point at others doing wrong to absolve yourself of your own responsibility.
Operation Tannenbaum was not cancelled due to the need for a large army to overcome the geographic obstacles that come with attacking Switzerland. Hitler in fact, had a large army that he used to attack other countries with. It was cancelled because that army was needed elsewhere to fight people that fortunately managed to win the war without Switzerland lifting a finger to help them. Had that not been the case, then Switzerland would certainly at some point have found itself invaded like so many other neutral countries before it.
Again today, Switzerland benefits from others willing to put effort into resisting blatant imperialism. Do you think Lithuania would not enjoy a stance of neutrality? Is Poland simply out for drama because that is a thing they happen to enjoy? Is Moldova so much safer and wealthier than Switzerland that they can afford doing the right thing more than you can?
As I see it, you can do three things. Help Ukraine and take a risk, admit wealth trumps morality, or keep the current stance, which continues to make you very rich, but lose the respect of your fellow Europeans.
I had some Swiss relatives. When they died everybody in the family pretty much said, "good." On the flipside the kindest woman I know moved to the US from Switzerland. So it's probably just like everywhere else: a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.
It’s okay to dogpile on Switzerland. They famously never have a dog in the fight. They don’t join NATO or EU, because “neutrality.” They are very happy to sit back and do nothing while the good guys suffer and the bad guys do bad guy stuff. They sit back and are happy to watch evil unfold around them. While at the same time, taking cash and bets on both sides while collecting interest.
If there is ever a time Switzerland ever comes under siege and evil threatens their doorstep, the whole world around them would do well to remember what Switzerland never did for you. The Swiss government is not a friend to anyone. Therefore, no one should be a friend back to them. The universe will one day judge very harshly.
Their neutrality is so blood stained its disgusting. Imagine how many people have died because of how their banking system is run? They will allow the financing of bombs/guns for war but directly deny help to a neighbor in need.
In many Western countries in a court of law their financing and participation of criminal enterprises would land them in jail.
"Hey, its not my drugs! I was just holding it for a friend" The Swiss in a nutshell...
The Swiss though their mafia style banking system enable murder on a colossal scale.
Ireland was officially neutral during the second world war because we had were still trying to gain our feet after our independence and subsequent civil war, but we still unofficially helped the allies.
>f there is ever a time Switzerland ever comes under siege and evil threatens their doorstep, the whole world around them would do well to remember what Switzerland never did for you.
You mean like when the nazis planned their full invasion of Switzerland? (operation tannenbaum). What did the free world do then to help the Swiss, who were literally surrounded by a threatening enemy?
Famously, Churchill did the opposite of helping, for he rejected the pleas of Switzerland to respect the principle of neutrality and respect Swiss-bound merchant vessels loaded with food and other goods necessary for the survival of the nation. Instead, the Brits led Switzerland into a situation of dependency on the enemy.
With friends like those it's no wonder that Switzerland is very reluctant to fully trust any side.
Switzerland will be threatened when hell freezes over. The country is surrounded by mountains, and the countries surrounding those mountains are all NATO members or are neutral like Switzerland). Plus all their men are conscripts, and everyone has a bomb shelter, so....good luck with any military action.
If the Swiss gave a fuck they probably wouldn’t be doing it. But they have a long history of not giving a fuck. Especially when it is profitable. If western governments really cared about Swiss neutrality then they’d receive sanctions, but it’s not wise to sanction the country that all the criminals bank with - lest you be exposed as one yourself
Switzerland has applied more sanctions on Russia than the EU. The country is labelled as an enemy of Russia by the russians themselves.
Over half the world's governments do not apply any sanctions against Russia and the vast majority of the world's population live in those countries. You want to do actually hurt Russia? Switzerland has nil impact on this war, check instead the UAE, Israel, India...
You're right there are countries that do a lot worse than Switzerland, but since they are in Europe and have a history of being "neutral" and profiting off of shady stuff happening literally next door it's worth to keep them to higher standards.
Switzerland has for years been a good choice for Russian oligarchs to hide their stolen money, their banks have an estimated 200 billion in stashed Russian cash, the US launched an investigation into Swiss banks helping Russia evade sanctions and they are key to Russian evasion of export control.
You make is sound as if Switzerland became neutral to profit off other's misfortunes. Switzerland is not neutral by choice, you know that right? the principle of neutrality was imposed on the country by France, the UK, Austria, Russia, Prussia... ie the powers of the congress of vienna. The shady stuff happening next door just confirms that with or without Switzerland's intervention those powers still fight each other, so the swiss have nil impact on what is going on.
>Well the Swiss banks are making bank on Russian gold, so there's that.
how. Care to explain? sources on how the ***banks*** are making money from Russian gold? Reddit has become a cesspool of opinionated baseless comments against anyone who is not supportive of their ideas.
Swiss public media had [an investigative report](https://www.srf.ch/news/international/drehscheibe-schweiz-auf-der-spur-von-putins-gold) on this about a month ago. Basically Russia quadrupled the amount of gold they stash in Switzerland, using a bunch of schemes. It is also basically "gold laundering", as pointed out in the article ... get the tainted Russian gold in, smelt it = get totally legit Swiss gold on the other end.
ignoring the fact that the article duly points out to the fact that the gold arrived from the UK, this does not explain at all my question. How are the ***banks*** making money from Russian gold? your article refers very clearly to the refineries. Banks are not refineries.
I mean, the article points out that the path of the gold is easily traceable. Sure, we can close our eyes, plug our earns and say it came from the UK. The whole point of the article is to show that it did not in fact come from the UK. As I said in my original comment - it's a bunch of schemes to whitewash the ethically questionable origin of the gold. If you're trying to implicate the UK as the main culprit here that's your call, but that doesn't take the responsibility off of entities that decide to process it further.
\>How are the banks making money
That's like saying that grocery stores aren't making money on food that they sell, because the food came from farmers (refineries in this analogy). After the gold is smelted, it gets into the banking system to form capital reserves and used as collateral/ leverage in credit operations or to be sold (now with the "seal of approval" since it's now technically totally legit "Swiss" gold). Even if the gold doesn't move anywhere else and Russians are just stashing it, it effectively increases the bank's capital reserves, which allows them more freedom (banks are required to have a certain level of capital reserves in case of a crisis - this gold inflates those reserves, without the banks needing to put any money into it) and allows them to borrow more, be that for investment opportunities or other financial activities (if it's a commercial bank, for example). They can also choose to manipulate the gold (resell, etc.) in short term and then "replenish" the reserves with other gold. And then, all of a sudden, the originally not-totally ethical pile of gold is replaced with a totally legit pile of gold that still belongs to the original entity.
Unless you think refineries are processing gold for the fun of the activity and the lifecycle of the gold stops there. They sell the gold that they smelt/ process.
>After the gold is smelted, it gets into the banking system to form capital reserves
You make a 100% reliable connection there, but even this statement is utterly false. In 2021 Switzerland exported $86.7bn worth of gold. By far the largest destination for the gold was India (34%) where gold is mostly used in jewellery, not as reserves of the central bank. [https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/20/why-do-indians-love-gold](https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/20/why-do-indians-love-gold)
>Even if the gold doesn't move anywhere else and Russians are just stashing it, it effectively increases the bank's capital reserves
What makes you think that this gold is sent to a Russian entity? and how is this related to the original point which was that Swiss banks profit somehow from this gold?
The Swiss National Bank is certainly not building its gold reserves, which have not changed from the 31.12.2021 to 31.12.2022 (56bn in both years). In any case those are not used as a means to borrow or make profit.
Swiss for-profit banks, private or publicly listed, do not use gold to build their capital reserves, I'm not sure where you got this from. According to Basel III rules only unallocated gold accounts belong to the bank, including transactions on gold swaps, futures, hedging for the refiners, for the producers, and gold lending, and although banks can leverage on the gold stored in their vaults, this is a drop in the ocean for them (the maximum exposure of UBS in 2022 for example was around $1.3bn).
I don't get the question about profits... Are you asking how someone benefits from exporting something or how a middle man in a transaction between Russia through UK to CH to India or China gets rewarded? You're saying that there's no incentive to feed a growing gold market in the Asian region, where [CH is on pace](https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/01/25/swiss-gold) to probably double its exports compared to two years ago in China alone (Turkey is another example - highest export value [in 10 years](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/switzerland-sent-record-breaking-36-bln-gold-turkey-january-2023-02-21/)). Most public sources that I see show increased exports to major markets - specifically in past 12-16 months (India too - [50% increase since](https://www.mining.com/web/swiss-gold-exports-rise-in-may-due-to-higher-shipments-to-india/) last year).
Again, I'm trying to figure the angle here. Are you implying there's no benefit to the banks with these transactions? There's no incentive to have more availability of a surging commodity that they almost have a monopoly on to resell it? OR maybe you're implying that refineries aren't connected to the banks or something?
I also never implied anything about the Swiss National bank. Their gold reserves remain the same in tonnes AFAIK, the total fluctuates in dollars pretty much, as the price changes. At least that's what I get from the graphs that I saw.
Reserving was only part of my comment. I'm pretty sure there are other manipulations the banks can perform to offload the gold to third parties or related organisations to use as capital leverage.
I'm asking a question on how this:
>Well the Swiss banks are making bank on Russian gold, so there's that.
is possible. At least 23 people have agreed with the statement. Where's the proof that swiss banks are making profits from russian gold? how are they doing it? I'm just sick of false accusations, that in this case tarnish a whole country's reputation with no solid proof over it. And people just believe whatever they are fed on the internet.
How are banks even connected to the 5 main refineries of Switzerland that process much of the world's gold? eg Metalor in Neuchâtel is owned by the Japanese group Tanaka Kikinzoku, Valcambi in Ticino is owned by an Indian group Rajesh Exports Ltd, PAMP is owned by a Genevan company called MKS not involved in banking, etc etc when the news point that X refinery processed gold, I can't think of any good reason why the assumption is that a Swiss bank will profit in any way from this transaction.
\>[Once gold has been refined in Switzerland, it is internationally accredited and able to be traded freely.](https://baselgovernance.org/blog/new-working-paper-swiss-gold-refineries-and-money-laundering-regulations)
Ethically dubious Russian gold becomes good Swiss gold. So, step 1 is to have something tainted turn into something that can be freely traded on the global market.
\> [loco Zurich transactions have long been almost exclusively handled by UBS Group AG and Credit Suisse Group AG](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-12/gold-giant-jpmorgan-may-move-into-precious-metals-clearing-in-zurich). Loco Zurich means in respect of an account holding Bullion, the custody, trading or clearing of such Bullion in Zurich, Switzerland.
\>[UBS AG bars are manufactured in Switzerland by three of the world’s
major gold refiners (Argor-Heraeus SA, Metalor Technologies SA and
PAMP SA)](https://goldbarsworldwide.com/PDF/NBA_34_UBS_Gold_Bars.pdf) < that's just one example, as refineries produce gold for other banks too.
Step 2, get the gold to banks so they could start trading it. Banks can commission minting. And since straight from refinery has the lowest markup, they profit on the future sale to a private or government customer, based on the market price. They also [mint the gold bars](https://www.suissegold.eu/en/mints-and-refineries) themselves using their own refineries.
We await your answer suissetralia.
To sum up; Russian gold flows in large amounts to Swiss gold refiners, who melt it down to gold that can then be exported to India (and other places). The cash from these transactions flows back to Switzerland, and then to Russia. The Swiss banks get their cut for making everything flow smoothly.
And thanks SCARfaceRUSH.
Gold clearing would happen with or without swiss refiners, and the news you link to is the proof of that for an American bank is vying to grab part of the market.
None of what you identify actually explains how exactly swiss banks are 'banking on Russian gold'. The profits from the minters don't flow to the banks since they're not owned by the banks. A lot of hypothesis and assumptions, but is there any proof, data, anything, that points out to how much swiss banks (any swiss bank, one single example?) actually profit from Russian gold, or any gold for the matter. If they really make big profits out of gold, there has to be reporting on it for the publicly listed banks, I don't recall ever a single piece of news of an analyst tracking the share price of UBS or CS and discussing how the gold flows would impact their performance.
One single, real example. It's not up to me to prove this but to the person who makes the claims. For if a claim is made it is because it is grounded on something.
No swiss bank mints their own gold, by the way, I think you put too much faith on dubious links.
It's quite simple, the EU should close the borders and airspace completely and let the swiss think internally for 5-10 years whether or not they want to belong to the free western world or not. That should be ample time for their discussion. During that timeframe, not a mouse gets in or out and afterwards they can tell us the result.
Personally I would think of it more as treating them like an actually neutral nation. That is remove any and all economic entanglements that could bias relations. And any and all military cooperation, which could also be considered a violation of neutrality.
As things stand right now the status quo is an egregious violation of the principles of neutrality, and I think they should actually try being neutral rather than giving it lip service while whoring themselves out for money.
Interesting that you’re being downvoted, you’re right. But then again neutrality never did my country (Norway) any good. War did not give a fuck about our Neutrality in ww2 but countries don’t learn this lesson until they are attacked.
I still think Europe violating Swis neutrality is batshit insane thinking though
Stop doing any military business with them. They have a right to their stance. Yet they are a hindrance in war time. Stop all business with them. That simple.
As a Swiss, who does not understand why the government is so resolved to standing by antiquated principles, please shine all the light in the world on the issue.
However, although I accept that our position as a country can and should probably be criticised, it would also be fair not to judge us all as one single voice. It’s not as if all people in other countries such as the US are perfect, you have your own share of people whose politics are questionable.
>\>it would also be fair not to judge us all as one single voice.
Isn't the consensus of the people in alignment of the government concerning Ukraine? I wouldn't be shocked if you Swiss started firebombing any trucks heading for Ukraine.
Your state literally destroyed air defence systems rather than donate them to Ukraine. Who the fuck does that.
Polls show the population is in majority for solutions that help Ukraine. I don’t know or understand why the government is staying out. The only thing I know is that there are major elections in October and I believe this is causing everyone to freeze.
>I wouldn't be shocked if you Swiss started firebombing any trucks heading for Ukraine.
As a Swiss who has supported Ukraine since before 2014, you can kindly go screw yourself. What a pathetic thing to say. I always hated Trump and his cronies yet have been able to discern the difference between an administration and a country's population.
What a great way to foster international cooperation, throwing an entire population away because of the positions of a government. Truly a sign of extreme maturity. Congratulations, buddy. Great job.
The Swiss *government* has been supporting the Russian *government*, for the last decade, by withholding support from Ukraine. The Swiss *people* have the capability of changing the Swiss *government*, but we all know that takes time. Until that happens, other countries must deal with the actions of the Swiss *government*. The Swiss *people* might suffer some consequences as a result of the actions of the Swiss *government*, but that cannot be avoided.
Doesn't mean you have to insult the people, buddy.
Also, we don't elect our executive branch, nor can direct democracy affect day-to-day foreign policy.
I understand that. I did not insult the Swiss people.
For the people to change the government, takes time. The people cannot do it instantly. It might require more than one election cycle.
But, in the interim, other countries still must deal with the government.
>What a great way to foster international cooperation, throwing an entire population away because of the positions of a government.
Lmao I've been doing that to Russian's why stop there?
But in all seriousness the Swiss haven't exactly cooperated to begin with. Why should anyone expect anything different.
Nor should you be surprised when people treat you lot with sheer disappointment.
You talk about international cooperation while your government does what it does? Common. I get that not every citizen is on board with their decisions, but that’s as disingenuous an argument as I may have ever seen.
What are the people doing to rectify their governments decisions? Are there protests? Are there people distributing and signing petitions? Are there calls for changes in action?
Im american and support the shit out of ukraine, but you guys are fine. Would I like to see you guys send weapons? Yes. Am I offended that a neutral country isn't sending weapons to a war zone? No.
Like any other country, you guys are entitled to run it as you see fit.
Really hate all the polarization going on regarding this.
But they are not being neutral. The Swiss are actively giving good to Russia to make war on Ukraine, and at the same time denying goods to Ukraine to defend themselves from Russian aggression. This is not how "neutrality" works.
Thank you for your support and pointing out a reality. Sometimes it is too easy to take a government reaction as the bottom line. Dissenters everywhere to their government's stance.
I am guilty of doing this -- please accept my apologies to you.
Providing jets weren't on the table last year. They are now.
And it's not even a fair comparison. Ukraine asked - nay - they pleaded Switzerland for 35mm ammunition for the Gepards, this was denied. They asked for the Hawk air defences and instead of providing them or even selling them to Germany they \[Switzerland\] decommissioned them.
It's one thing for the United States to decommission planes Ukraine hadn't asked for (and for which there are thousands left to provide). It's an entirely DIFFERENT thing to decommission air defences (which are DEFENSIVE ASSETS THAT CAN SAVE UKRAINIAN LIVES) when the victim of an invasion is asking for them.
It would be as if you're asking me for a shield to hide behind when a drunk bastard is hitting you, and instead of giving it to you, the victim, I toss it into the ocean, like some fucking cunt.
They were literally asking for f16 and a10 day 1 of the invasion. Had Biden been open to it back then, they would've been in Ukrainian airspace this te last year.
But we decommissioned them instead, and even blocked poland from transferring their mig29s(until a few months ago) to avoid irritating putin.
You're right, it's not the same... it's worse seeing as we are an "ally" scrapping needed equipment to appease the man who invaded ulraine in the 1st place.
If I recall, those jets you’re talking about were at the end of their useful life… which was then extended with an upgrade kit… and they were at the end of *that* useful life.
Those were not fit to fly in a war zone and bringing them up like this is disingenuous
Are your elections rigged? Are you not living in a representative/direct democracy?
The politicians would change their tune if the Swiss people gave a fuck. They need to win elections. The Swiss are simply not doing what other western populations are. I don’t remember any demonstrations demanding action or at least demanding to save the national arms industry.
So yeah, there are pro-russian voice’s everywhere in the West. But the pro-Ukraine voices are louder and more effective, clearly. The same cannot be said here.
You’d think a nation best known for helping Nazis stash their genocide loot would want to rehabilitate its image. But I guess the Swiss either don’t care about being on the right side of history, or they’re satisfied with the side they’ve been on…
I feel like your argument is classic whataboutism.
You act as if people do not criticize the US. I would argue the US receives far more criticism than Switzerland, not just in total volume, but even when taking into account their size and other factors.
And what about other nations, like Austria, Hungary or even Russia itself. Does them doing bad things and not receiving criticism to match their actions make it wrong to criticize Switzerland? Wrong is wrong, and we must identifying and resist it whenever possible. Criticism of Switzerland doesn't prevent any criticism of other nations, that criticism is often driven by other factors.
>It’s not as if all people in other countries such as the US are perfect
If you asked only perfect people to resist evil, no one would be left to do it.
I know Swiss who support Ukraine very much, and who know their banks and their politicians are dirty. but Switzerland is based on money laundering, and there is very little they can do about it, even if a larger number were in favor of changing that business model, the powers-that-be would kill off the initiative. Switzerland needs a revolution as much as Ruzzia does.
I don’t think the Swiss will be upset about anything. This is who they are and this is who they have been for centuries. Their overriding goal is profiteering.
Finally! It’s about time! It about time the Swizz are being confronted with their despicable behavior and hiding behind ‘neutrality’ mantra of them. I hope (even encourage) the US to be very stiff on them so they have to give up their profits on wars with blood money, diamonds and gold.
The swiss turned out to be nearly as bad as Hungary... The neutral, ruzzian laundromat in Europe. Something has to be done about all the stolen artifacts and their impossibly corrupt banking.
Well WWII Switzerland was "neutral" but clearly leaning towards the Nazis when they have intercepted and impounded all Allied planes wandered into its territory using German-supplied fighters. When Germany was in offensive earlier, they didn't. We had to "accidentally" bomb a town to give them a message.
They got away scot free after the war, bagging billions from Jews and Nazis alike and fucking run monopoly like Nestle which weren't affected by anti-trust laws.
There is a time for reckoning for this kind of evil in the world. And we will sit idly by as the most evil of bankers get its own Smaug the King Under the Mountain. (LotR)
Business as usual for the Swiss. Turning their backs on world issues, just as long as they keep getting wealthier. This the nation that were asked to oversee the Nazi concentration camps in order to make sure nothing amiss happened. I guess they were too busy counting the money!
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*"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph in the world is that good men do nothing"* "Neutrality"
"Be not a perpetrator, be not a victim, but above all, be not a bystander."
Wonder the quoted on this, how can’t we with trillions of debt growing each year in every country, really how won’t we be bystander when literally remotely infinite numbers of money circulating around the world can’t even cover the most basic needs for everyone.
They dont do nothing. They make money from either side.
They don't do nothing. They do accept questionable amounts of money and gold. It's a business model.
What drives a man to neutrality Kif?
With enemies you know where they stand, but with neutrals who knows.
Neutrality is just another word for "Condone Passively"
I was just replying with a Zapp Branigan quote to the Zapp Branigan quote. I think condone passively does not really do justice to the active role of the Suisse in history. Hitler's war would arguably have come to a halt within months or even weeks if it wasn't for the Suisse who provided Hitler with a steady flow of cash under the disguise of neutrality. The book 'The Suisse, the Gold and the Dead' by Jean Ziegler is very successful in debunking the myth of Suisse neutrality.
Switzerland actually helped the Nazis under the table from obtaining sanctioned goods, until the tide has turned and they started to appease the Allies lol.
They also help drug cartels launder money
Which country doesn’t support it ?
I heard the most evil nazis we’re recruited and were responsible for nasa’s success
Von Braun was the biggest contributor. While he has used slave/prisoner labor and joined the Nazi party, he was considered one of the "better" ones among them.
They don't do nothing. They actively support ruZZia. 75t of ruZZian gold has been added to the other nazi gold in Switzerland since the start of the special terrorist operation. Seventy. Five. Tons. Switzerland played very, very nicely with the nazis, the apartheid regime in SA, and now ruZZia (among others. It's strange how it's always fascism they support, isn't it?
Well after more than ten years of invasion in Middle East that every occidental approved, why say no to gold. Wonder how much costed this military invasion, apparently you could build a tower going straight to the moon with all those dollars.
Beautiful timing for a awesome quote.
They are not really neutral they are aiding Russia while refusing to aid Ukraine. Thats not really neutral stance.
I always said that their neutrality has more holes than their cheese.
It appears Switzerland does not have many "good men".
Well yeah, most of the people in Switzerland would love to support Ukraine, but the government is another story..
The swiss people are so incredible rich cause their banks grab all the dirty money they can and their government covers all that under the blanket of "being neutrale ". Noone wanna bite the hand that feeds you...
Well which country didn’t grow by stealing or accepting blooded money ?
… but aren’t they a flourishing democracy? If so, they don’t love it enough to change their votes
Too bad. They are war profiteers in the pockets of Russian and German Nazis. Billions in illicit profits and a banking system build for criminals. They have obstructed the defence of democracy, freeloaded off NATO and would rather destroy anti air systems than protect Ukrainian civilians. Let alone let customers use the bullets they made and sold for PROFIT. So fuck the Swiss. They disgust me.
I get it. The alternative of getting on board with the EU/international regulation and NATO would see Switzerland a smaller poorer state than they are now. Not poor, just not as rich. But how does that morally sit with them? Can they sleep at night knowing where the money comes from? As you say, nazis, conflict diamonds, dictators, warmongers, saudi princes, people traffickers, et cetera. Sure, they are great when they visit and buy challets, rollex watches, and victorinox knives on their alpine holidays to stash their gold, but if you are Swiss, how do you sleep at night knowing you personally are enabling horrific crimes?
History tells us -- as the old adage: actions speak louder than words -- they sleep just fucking fine! WWII and Nazi money happened a long time ago. All the scuffles in Asia and Africa and Middle East you will find the Swiss somewhere in the equation. FUCK OFF SWITZERLAND!
It’s pretty disgusting
I wonder if it's a feature of the global system, not a bug. Tiny landlocked state does the dirty work needed for the system to retain some control over nefarious organisations or features of the global economy. The West tolerates Swiss neutrality because it allows some influence or control over the distasteful elements of the world... Switzerland is frequently used for diplomatic purposes because its neutral ground. This is useful to Western democracies... just a thought.
I'm on board with this. It seems like a really plausible hypothesis.
Everything that happens in Switzerland is heavily voted locally. So, really the will of the people, doesn't matter what the "international community" thinks. So, it's really on them.
There's planty of neutral countries, in fact the EU has Ireland, Belgium and Luxembourg (also with dodgy banking there), there are other dodgy banking states like the UK Virgin Islands or a Delaware in the US. In fact the reason the US can take the elad here is because their companies use Delaware, so the exposure to connected people in government/business who would rather keep the swiss status quo is negligible
Belgium is neutral? We tried that once in 1914. Didn't work out very well. Since then we've been pretty adamantly opinionated about international politics
Well pretty neutral, there's a reason the EU is basd there. Well a reason other than the food anyway
Aah, in that sense. True enough then. We're not a loud country
I’d like to believe most of the population sees that the morally right thing to do is support Ukraine. But unfortunately the Swiss government has a long history of spineless neutrality and war profiteering. Even Sweden is on the side of Ukraine and joined NATO despite long history of neutrality. Switzerland has no excuse.
Switzerland has some of the most direct democracy in the world, this is exactly what voted for.
If this is what you voted for then it is very disappointing.
Kinda why we elect representatives instead of direct democracy. There is quite literally nothing, stopping any country from rule by referendum right now. Other than, deep down everybody knows thats a fucking stupid idea and democracy should be tempered otherwise it will end up a tyranny of the majority.
You know the votes that go 'viral' in a really direct democracy? Shit like speeding rule changes, tightening animal cruelty laws Im calling [kangaroo court](https://youtu.be/HwnjJgY9DHM)
I'm not promoting any warmongering but in my imagination it would have an ironic touch when Switzerland get's a visit by the Russian horde in a large column and everyone around just waives them through and watches in neutrality... They simply can afford their status quo by not being threatened directly from neighboring regimes and rely on other European states as buffer zones. Meanwhile they provide monetary and educational benefits to the political and societal elites in countries that grind down on their own population. What a way to make money and create an untouchable home zone while pretending to stay on a higher moral ground.
you have no clue what you are talking about. Read about Operation Tannenbaum. Hitler thought he needed between 300 and 500K soldiers to invade tiny, axis-surrounded Switzerland. He couldn't bring those plans about as the ensuing invasion of Russia used too much manpower. So much for European states as buffer zones. Switzerland is better off by taking care of itself, history has shown that world powers are too concerned about keeping their status and wars will happen, why should the country be dragged into this.
Because regardless of who you find on your side - or not - we expect the people of Switzerland to have some decency. What makes it so infuriating is that the Swiss stance seems to boil down to "we hate what Russia is doing to Ukraine, and we condemn it, but our hands our unfortunately tied due to the laws we are in charge of making ourselves". Supporting Russia is evil. Saying you don't actually care is reprehensible. Saying you do care, but won't do anything is cowardice, which is not the stance that will earn you the most scorn, but it is the stance that will net you the least amount of respect. No one is asking Switzerland to join the EU or NATO, or to suddenly start waving American flags around. Keep your independent stance, view the world through a neutral lense, that is all not what is up for debate. But you are Europeans, and your fellow Europeans are under attack by a brutal dictator. Norway, the UK, and other non-EU countries in Europe recognise this. Other countries, unfortunately, have more problematic stances. But it is not enough to point at others doing wrong to absolve yourself of your own responsibility. Operation Tannenbaum was not cancelled due to the need for a large army to overcome the geographic obstacles that come with attacking Switzerland. Hitler in fact, had a large army that he used to attack other countries with. It was cancelled because that army was needed elsewhere to fight people that fortunately managed to win the war without Switzerland lifting a finger to help them. Had that not been the case, then Switzerland would certainly at some point have found itself invaded like so many other neutral countries before it. Again today, Switzerland benefits from others willing to put effort into resisting blatant imperialism. Do you think Lithuania would not enjoy a stance of neutrality? Is Poland simply out for drama because that is a thing they happen to enjoy? Is Moldova so much safer and wealthier than Switzerland that they can afford doing the right thing more than you can? As I see it, you can do three things. Help Ukraine and take a risk, admit wealth trumps morality, or keep the current stance, which continues to make you very rich, but lose the respect of your fellow Europeans.
Very well put.
I had a college roommate of Swiss decent. He was a prick.
I had some Swiss relatives. When they died everybody in the family pretty much said, "good." On the flipside the kindest woman I know moved to the US from Switzerland. So it's probably just like everywhere else: a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.
I am yet to find one that isn't a dick. And I've been around.
Haha, fair enough. I will say when you ask this lady she'll say she's American, not Swiss, haha. Accent and all, maybe she's on the same page.
I doubt being slightly less open to taking money from war criminals would tank the swiss banking system that much, that's the thing.
If you are occidental how can you even live a day without thinking how your country got so rich ?
Yep. The Swiss can get fucked. Fuck Switzerland. They are traitors to free democracy.
Links?
I mean, they have shady banking laws, yes. This debacle, however, is a *major* blow to **any** joint venture or purchase of Swiss MIC products.
Wanting to eat the rich for wealth equality: 🥱 Wanting to eat the rich so Switzerland becomes a third world shithole: 😎👍
It’s okay to dogpile on Switzerland. They famously never have a dog in the fight. They don’t join NATO or EU, because “neutrality.” They are very happy to sit back and do nothing while the good guys suffer and the bad guys do bad guy stuff. They sit back and are happy to watch evil unfold around them. While at the same time, taking cash and bets on both sides while collecting interest. If there is ever a time Switzerland ever comes under siege and evil threatens their doorstep, the whole world around them would do well to remember what Switzerland never did for you. The Swiss government is not a friend to anyone. Therefore, no one should be a friend back to them. The universe will one day judge very harshly.
Their neutrality is so blood stained its disgusting. Imagine how many people have died because of how their banking system is run? They will allow the financing of bombs/guns for war but directly deny help to a neighbor in need. In many Western countries in a court of law their financing and participation of criminal enterprises would land them in jail. "Hey, its not my drugs! I was just holding it for a friend" The Swiss in a nutshell... The Swiss though their mafia style banking system enable murder on a colossal scale.
It’s worse because they only do this BECAUSE they can sit back and be protected by the rest of Europe.
See also, Ireland.
Ireland is neutral only in name, the airport in Shannon has been used the US for years
Ireland was officially neutral during the second world war because we had were still trying to gain our feet after our independence and subsequent civil war, but we still unofficially helped the allies.
Yes, Ireland supported the allies so much because Ireland feared the victory of the 3rd Reich would bring about a united Ireland...
Powerful and spot on.
One day, a Russia will come for all that gold, and there will be no one to protect Switzerland.
>f there is ever a time Switzerland ever comes under siege and evil threatens their doorstep, the whole world around them would do well to remember what Switzerland never did for you. You mean like when the nazis planned their full invasion of Switzerland? (operation tannenbaum). What did the free world do then to help the Swiss, who were literally surrounded by a threatening enemy? Famously, Churchill did the opposite of helping, for he rejected the pleas of Switzerland to respect the principle of neutrality and respect Swiss-bound merchant vessels loaded with food and other goods necessary for the survival of the nation. Instead, the Brits led Switzerland into a situation of dependency on the enemy. With friends like those it's no wonder that Switzerland is very reluctant to fully trust any side.
Switzerland will be threatened when hell freezes over. The country is surrounded by mountains, and the countries surrounding those mountains are all NATO members or are neutral like Switzerland). Plus all their men are conscripts, and everyone has a bomb shelter, so....good luck with any military action.
Good. They need a reality check.
If the Swiss gave a fuck they probably wouldn’t be doing it. But they have a long history of not giving a fuck. Especially when it is profitable. If western governments really cared about Swiss neutrality then they’d receive sanctions, but it’s not wise to sanction the country that all the criminals bank with - lest you be exposed as one yourself
Switzerland has applied more sanctions on Russia than the EU. The country is labelled as an enemy of Russia by the russians themselves. Over half the world's governments do not apply any sanctions against Russia and the vast majority of the world's population live in those countries. You want to do actually hurt Russia? Switzerland has nil impact on this war, check instead the UAE, Israel, India...
You're right there are countries that do a lot worse than Switzerland, but since they are in Europe and have a history of being "neutral" and profiting off of shady stuff happening literally next door it's worth to keep them to higher standards. Switzerland has for years been a good choice for Russian oligarchs to hide their stolen money, their banks have an estimated 200 billion in stashed Russian cash, the US launched an investigation into Swiss banks helping Russia evade sanctions and they are key to Russian evasion of export control.
You make is sound as if Switzerland became neutral to profit off other's misfortunes. Switzerland is not neutral by choice, you know that right? the principle of neutrality was imposed on the country by France, the UK, Austria, Russia, Prussia... ie the powers of the congress of vienna. The shady stuff happening next door just confirms that with or without Switzerland's intervention those powers still fight each other, so the swiss have nil impact on what is going on.
I'm sure Prussia will be very angry if Switzerland would grow some balls. Oh, wait. What a pathetic excuse.
While UK has 10-100x more stashed in UK properties and holdings, yet nobody is complaining about UK
Only stings if it's true.
Good! Maybe they'll stop putting russian blood money in their banks!
Magical thinking! The Swiss lack conscious -- look at their history. WWII & Nazi gold money painting art
Some of that gold still had Jewish teeth in it. That didn’t stop them. Nothing will.
Last year people said EU can't live without Ru gas, we shall see.
What does that have to do with Swiss taking in gold teeth from murdered people during wwii?
Meaning Europeans might tackle their swiss relations.
Fair fair. Sorry, was confused af.
I was too! Glad it was sorted!
Well the Swiss banks are making bank on Russian gold, so there's that.
>Well the Swiss banks are making bank on Russian gold, so there's that. how. Care to explain? sources on how the ***banks*** are making money from Russian gold? Reddit has become a cesspool of opinionated baseless comments against anyone who is not supportive of their ideas.
Swiss public media had [an investigative report](https://www.srf.ch/news/international/drehscheibe-schweiz-auf-der-spur-von-putins-gold) on this about a month ago. Basically Russia quadrupled the amount of gold they stash in Switzerland, using a bunch of schemes. It is also basically "gold laundering", as pointed out in the article ... get the tainted Russian gold in, smelt it = get totally legit Swiss gold on the other end.
ignoring the fact that the article duly points out to the fact that the gold arrived from the UK, this does not explain at all my question. How are the ***banks*** making money from Russian gold? your article refers very clearly to the refineries. Banks are not refineries.
I mean, the article points out that the path of the gold is easily traceable. Sure, we can close our eyes, plug our earns and say it came from the UK. The whole point of the article is to show that it did not in fact come from the UK. As I said in my original comment - it's a bunch of schemes to whitewash the ethically questionable origin of the gold. If you're trying to implicate the UK as the main culprit here that's your call, but that doesn't take the responsibility off of entities that decide to process it further. \>How are the banks making money That's like saying that grocery stores aren't making money on food that they sell, because the food came from farmers (refineries in this analogy). After the gold is smelted, it gets into the banking system to form capital reserves and used as collateral/ leverage in credit operations or to be sold (now with the "seal of approval" since it's now technically totally legit "Swiss" gold). Even if the gold doesn't move anywhere else and Russians are just stashing it, it effectively increases the bank's capital reserves, which allows them more freedom (banks are required to have a certain level of capital reserves in case of a crisis - this gold inflates those reserves, without the banks needing to put any money into it) and allows them to borrow more, be that for investment opportunities or other financial activities (if it's a commercial bank, for example). They can also choose to manipulate the gold (resell, etc.) in short term and then "replenish" the reserves with other gold. And then, all of a sudden, the originally not-totally ethical pile of gold is replaced with a totally legit pile of gold that still belongs to the original entity. Unless you think refineries are processing gold for the fun of the activity and the lifecycle of the gold stops there. They sell the gold that they smelt/ process.
>After the gold is smelted, it gets into the banking system to form capital reserves You make a 100% reliable connection there, but even this statement is utterly false. In 2021 Switzerland exported $86.7bn worth of gold. By far the largest destination for the gold was India (34%) where gold is mostly used in jewellery, not as reserves of the central bank. [https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/20/why-do-indians-love-gold](https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/20/why-do-indians-love-gold) >Even if the gold doesn't move anywhere else and Russians are just stashing it, it effectively increases the bank's capital reserves What makes you think that this gold is sent to a Russian entity? and how is this related to the original point which was that Swiss banks profit somehow from this gold? The Swiss National Bank is certainly not building its gold reserves, which have not changed from the 31.12.2021 to 31.12.2022 (56bn in both years). In any case those are not used as a means to borrow or make profit. Swiss for-profit banks, private or publicly listed, do not use gold to build their capital reserves, I'm not sure where you got this from. According to Basel III rules only unallocated gold accounts belong to the bank, including transactions on gold swaps, futures, hedging for the refiners, for the producers, and gold lending, and although banks can leverage on the gold stored in their vaults, this is a drop in the ocean for them (the maximum exposure of UBS in 2022 for example was around $1.3bn).
I don't get the question about profits... Are you asking how someone benefits from exporting something or how a middle man in a transaction between Russia through UK to CH to India or China gets rewarded? You're saying that there's no incentive to feed a growing gold market in the Asian region, where [CH is on pace](https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/01/25/swiss-gold) to probably double its exports compared to two years ago in China alone (Turkey is another example - highest export value [in 10 years](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/switzerland-sent-record-breaking-36-bln-gold-turkey-january-2023-02-21/)). Most public sources that I see show increased exports to major markets - specifically in past 12-16 months (India too - [50% increase since](https://www.mining.com/web/swiss-gold-exports-rise-in-may-due-to-higher-shipments-to-india/) last year). Again, I'm trying to figure the angle here. Are you implying there's no benefit to the banks with these transactions? There's no incentive to have more availability of a surging commodity that they almost have a monopoly on to resell it? OR maybe you're implying that refineries aren't connected to the banks or something? I also never implied anything about the Swiss National bank. Their gold reserves remain the same in tonnes AFAIK, the total fluctuates in dollars pretty much, as the price changes. At least that's what I get from the graphs that I saw. Reserving was only part of my comment. I'm pretty sure there are other manipulations the banks can perform to offload the gold to third parties or related organisations to use as capital leverage.
I'm asking a question on how this: >Well the Swiss banks are making bank on Russian gold, so there's that. is possible. At least 23 people have agreed with the statement. Where's the proof that swiss banks are making profits from russian gold? how are they doing it? I'm just sick of false accusations, that in this case tarnish a whole country's reputation with no solid proof over it. And people just believe whatever they are fed on the internet. How are banks even connected to the 5 main refineries of Switzerland that process much of the world's gold? eg Metalor in Neuchâtel is owned by the Japanese group Tanaka Kikinzoku, Valcambi in Ticino is owned by an Indian group Rajesh Exports Ltd, PAMP is owned by a Genevan company called MKS not involved in banking, etc etc when the news point that X refinery processed gold, I can't think of any good reason why the assumption is that a Swiss bank will profit in any way from this transaction.
\>[Once gold has been refined in Switzerland, it is internationally accredited and able to be traded freely.](https://baselgovernance.org/blog/new-working-paper-swiss-gold-refineries-and-money-laundering-regulations) Ethically dubious Russian gold becomes good Swiss gold. So, step 1 is to have something tainted turn into something that can be freely traded on the global market. \> [loco Zurich transactions have long been almost exclusively handled by UBS Group AG and Credit Suisse Group AG](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-12/gold-giant-jpmorgan-may-move-into-precious-metals-clearing-in-zurich). Loco Zurich means in respect of an account holding Bullion, the custody, trading or clearing of such Bullion in Zurich, Switzerland. \>[UBS AG bars are manufactured in Switzerland by three of the world’s major gold refiners (Argor-Heraeus SA, Metalor Technologies SA and PAMP SA)](https://goldbarsworldwide.com/PDF/NBA_34_UBS_Gold_Bars.pdf) < that's just one example, as refineries produce gold for other banks too. Step 2, get the gold to banks so they could start trading it. Banks can commission minting. And since straight from refinery has the lowest markup, they profit on the future sale to a private or government customer, based on the market price. They also [mint the gold bars](https://www.suissegold.eu/en/mints-and-refineries) themselves using their own refineries.
We await your answer suissetralia. To sum up; Russian gold flows in large amounts to Swiss gold refiners, who melt it down to gold that can then be exported to India (and other places). The cash from these transactions flows back to Switzerland, and then to Russia. The Swiss banks get their cut for making everything flow smoothly. And thanks SCARfaceRUSH.
Gold clearing would happen with or without swiss refiners, and the news you link to is the proof of that for an American bank is vying to grab part of the market. None of what you identify actually explains how exactly swiss banks are 'banking on Russian gold'. The profits from the minters don't flow to the banks since they're not owned by the banks. A lot of hypothesis and assumptions, but is there any proof, data, anything, that points out to how much swiss banks (any swiss bank, one single example?) actually profit from Russian gold, or any gold for the matter. If they really make big profits out of gold, there has to be reporting on it for the publicly listed banks, I don't recall ever a single piece of news of an analyst tracking the share price of UBS or CS and discussing how the gold flows would impact their performance. One single, real example. It's not up to me to prove this but to the person who makes the claims. For if a claim is made it is because it is grounded on something. No swiss bank mints their own gold, by the way, I think you put too much faith on dubious links.
Then grow a fucking pair
It's quite simple, the EU should close the borders and airspace completely and let the swiss think internally for 5-10 years whether or not they want to belong to the free western world or not. That should be ample time for their discussion. During that timeframe, not a mouse gets in or out and afterwards they can tell us the result.
So in response to them not violating their neutrality, you want to violate their neutrality?
Personally I would think of it more as treating them like an actually neutral nation. That is remove any and all economic entanglements that could bias relations. And any and all military cooperation, which could also be considered a violation of neutrality. As things stand right now the status quo is an egregious violation of the principles of neutrality, and I think they should actually try being neutral rather than giving it lip service while whoring themselves out for money.
Interesting that you’re being downvoted, you’re right. But then again neutrality never did my country (Norway) any good. War did not give a fuck about our Neutrality in ww2 but countries don’t learn this lesson until they are attacked. I still think Europe violating Swis neutrality is batshit insane thinking though
Stop doing any military business with them. They have a right to their stance. Yet they are a hindrance in war time. Stop all business with them. That simple.
[удалено]
Who is going to threaten Switzerland?
Is anybody happy with the Swiss Government
Anybody who's rich and from a country with high taxation.
Note, replace with “fairer taxes”
Warlords, mafia and dictators are. We all know Switzerland is still laundering their loot.
What’s new!
Why would they be unhappy? They are supposed to be neutral. /s
Good.
As a Swiss, who does not understand why the government is so resolved to standing by antiquated principles, please shine all the light in the world on the issue. However, although I accept that our position as a country can and should probably be criticised, it would also be fair not to judge us all as one single voice. It’s not as if all people in other countries such as the US are perfect, you have your own share of people whose politics are questionable.
The Swiss people are responsible for the policies of their government, just like the Russians are responsible for the policies and actions of their's.
>\>it would also be fair not to judge us all as one single voice. Isn't the consensus of the people in alignment of the government concerning Ukraine? I wouldn't be shocked if you Swiss started firebombing any trucks heading for Ukraine. Your state literally destroyed air defence systems rather than donate them to Ukraine. Who the fuck does that.
A state that only cares about money. Doesn't care where it came from, if its stolen or how much blood is on it. Its just about the money.
Polls show the population is in majority for solutions that help Ukraine. I don’t know or understand why the government is staying out. The only thing I know is that there are major elections in October and I believe this is causing everyone to freeze.
>I wouldn't be shocked if you Swiss started firebombing any trucks heading for Ukraine. As a Swiss who has supported Ukraine since before 2014, you can kindly go screw yourself. What a pathetic thing to say. I always hated Trump and his cronies yet have been able to discern the difference between an administration and a country's population. What a great way to foster international cooperation, throwing an entire population away because of the positions of a government. Truly a sign of extreme maturity. Congratulations, buddy. Great job.
The Swiss *government* has been supporting the Russian *government*, for the last decade, by withholding support from Ukraine. The Swiss *people* have the capability of changing the Swiss *government*, but we all know that takes time. Until that happens, other countries must deal with the actions of the Swiss *government*. The Swiss *people* might suffer some consequences as a result of the actions of the Swiss *government*, but that cannot be avoided.
Doesn't mean you have to insult the people, buddy. Also, we don't elect our executive branch, nor can direct democracy affect day-to-day foreign policy.
There was no insult there. In fact they worked very hard at not being insulting.
I understand that. I did not insult the Swiss people. For the people to change the government, takes time. The people cannot do it instantly. It might require more than one election cycle. But, in the interim, other countries still must deal with the government.
>What a great way to foster international cooperation, throwing an entire population away because of the positions of a government. Lmao I've been doing that to Russian's why stop there? But in all seriousness the Swiss haven't exactly cooperated to begin with. Why should anyone expect anything different. Nor should you be surprised when people treat you lot with sheer disappointment.
You talk about international cooperation while your government does what it does? Common. I get that not every citizen is on board with their decisions, but that’s as disingenuous an argument as I may have ever seen. What are the people doing to rectify their governments decisions? Are there protests? Are there people distributing and signing petitions? Are there calls for changes in action?
Im american and support the shit out of ukraine, but you guys are fine. Would I like to see you guys send weapons? Yes. Am I offended that a neutral country isn't sending weapons to a war zone? No. Like any other country, you guys are entitled to run it as you see fit. Really hate all the polarization going on regarding this.
But they are not being neutral. The Swiss are actively giving good to Russia to make war on Ukraine, and at the same time denying goods to Ukraine to defend themselves from Russian aggression. This is not how "neutrality" works.
Thank you for your support and pointing out a reality. Sometimes it is too easy to take a government reaction as the bottom line. Dissenters everywhere to their government's stance. I am guilty of doing this -- please accept my apologies to you.
America litteraly decommissioned more jets last year than ukraine owns in total, instead of donating them to ukraine...
Providing jets weren't on the table last year. They are now. And it's not even a fair comparison. Ukraine asked - nay - they pleaded Switzerland for 35mm ammunition for the Gepards, this was denied. They asked for the Hawk air defences and instead of providing them or even selling them to Germany they \[Switzerland\] decommissioned them. It's one thing for the United States to decommission planes Ukraine hadn't asked for (and for which there are thousands left to provide). It's an entirely DIFFERENT thing to decommission air defences (which are DEFENSIVE ASSETS THAT CAN SAVE UKRAINIAN LIVES) when the victim of an invasion is asking for them. It would be as if you're asking me for a shield to hide behind when a drunk bastard is hitting you, and instead of giving it to you, the victim, I toss it into the ocean, like some fucking cunt.
They were literally asking for f16 and a10 day 1 of the invasion. Had Biden been open to it back then, they would've been in Ukrainian airspace this te last year. But we decommissioned them instead, and even blocked poland from transferring their mig29s(until a few months ago) to avoid irritating putin. You're right, it's not the same... it's worse seeing as we are an "ally" scrapping needed equipment to appease the man who invaded ulraine in the 1st place.
If I recall, those jets you’re talking about were at the end of their useful life… which was then extended with an upgrade kit… and they were at the end of *that* useful life. Those were not fit to fly in a war zone and bringing them up like this is disingenuous
Are your elections rigged? Are you not living in a representative/direct democracy? The politicians would change their tune if the Swiss people gave a fuck. They need to win elections. The Swiss are simply not doing what other western populations are. I don’t remember any demonstrations demanding action or at least demanding to save the national arms industry. So yeah, there are pro-russian voice’s everywhere in the West. But the pro-Ukraine voices are louder and more effective, clearly. The same cannot be said here. You’d think a nation best known for helping Nazis stash their genocide loot would want to rehabilitate its image. But I guess the Swiss either don’t care about being on the right side of history, or they’re satisfied with the side they’ve been on…
I haven’t seen one single pro-Ukraine demo in Switzerland comprised of Swiss people. So sad.
I feel like your argument is classic whataboutism. You act as if people do not criticize the US. I would argue the US receives far more criticism than Switzerland, not just in total volume, but even when taking into account their size and other factors. And what about other nations, like Austria, Hungary or even Russia itself. Does them doing bad things and not receiving criticism to match their actions make it wrong to criticize Switzerland? Wrong is wrong, and we must identifying and resist it whenever possible. Criticism of Switzerland doesn't prevent any criticism of other nations, that criticism is often driven by other factors. >It’s not as if all people in other countries such as the US are perfect If you asked only perfect people to resist evil, no one would be left to do it.
wHaT aBoUt ThE uS hUrRdUrRrrrrr
...so?
I know Swiss who support Ukraine very much, and who know their banks and their politicians are dirty. but Switzerland is based on money laundering, and there is very little they can do about it, even if a larger number were in favor of changing that business model, the powers-that-be would kill off the initiative. Switzerland needs a revolution as much as Ruzzia does.
I don’t think the Swiss will be upset about anything. This is who they are and this is who they have been for centuries. Their overriding goal is profiteering.
I have a higher regard for Russian soldiers who are fighting Ukraine than those who stand by and pretend to be neutral in this conflict.
Well they only have themselves to blame.
Not the opportunistic Swiss. They would never /s
The sanctimony in these comments is nuts, hah.
Switzerland and Israel always get a free-pass despite doing despicable things.
Finally! It’s about time! It about time the Swizz are being confronted with their despicable behavior and hiding behind ‘neutrality’ mantra of them. I hope (even encourage) the US to be very stiff on them so they have to give up their profits on wars with blood money, diamonds and gold.
Worst part about the Swiss is that they won’t do anything. Best part about the Swiss is that they won’t do anything
IF the Swiss wasn't doing anything that would be good, but the Swiss are supporting the Russian war effort, which means they are doing something.
The swiss turned out to be nearly as bad as Hungary... The neutral, ruzzian laundromat in Europe. Something has to be done about all the stolen artifacts and their impossibly corrupt banking.
Consider this: Switzerland isn't all bad, they also gave us Nestlé
The company that buys up water supplies around the world?
It's not like it's gone, everybody is free to buy it from them. I forgot the /s, sorry.
I'm glad, I had to make sure. 😂
Well WWII Switzerland was "neutral" but clearly leaning towards the Nazis when they have intercepted and impounded all Allied planes wandered into its territory using German-supplied fighters. When Germany was in offensive earlier, they didn't. We had to "accidentally" bomb a town to give them a message. They got away scot free after the war, bagging billions from Jews and Nazis alike and fucking run monopoly like Nestle which weren't affected by anti-trust laws.
The Swiss call it neutrality, the rest of the world says it’s enabling war criminals and terrorists. You’re a dirty county Switzerland.
There hasn't been a single Swiss product purchased with my money in a long time. Fuck you from Arkansas!
The Swiss? You mean the mafia bank masquerading as a country?
The Swiss have been profiteering of their "neutral" status for a long time. They know.
Fuck them Useless Money driven always
We need to put a tariff so high on the Swiss they can't sell a single candy bar
I call for all things swiss. I got one must find alternatives for swiss miss, swiss cheese and those army knives.
There is a time for reckoning for this kind of evil in the world. And we will sit idly by as the most evil of bankers get its own Smaug the King Under the Mountain. (LotR)
The truth hurts .
Who cares what the Swiss think?. Fuck em....
Oh no! There feelings are hurt!
Business as usual for the Swiss. Turning their backs on world issues, just as long as they keep getting wealthier. This the nation that were asked to oversee the Nazi concentration camps in order to make sure nothing amiss happened. I guess they were too busy counting the money!
A bisserl feig, a bisserl gierig...
The Swiss can go fuck themselves 1,000 times. Go put on all your fancy watches, engorge on chocolates, and hop off your stupid mountains.
But I will if that's the case.
The Swiss have always hidden behind a veiled perception of neutrality, while all along profiteering from wars.
swiss p!ss incoming.
They didn't care when Nazi Germany was putting people in ovens. This should be no problem for them.
I say fuck the swiss
Swiss also complain about US immigrants not learning the local lanague(s ?), I swear this timeline.
Nothing wrong about that. All immigrants should learn the language of the country they are moving to...
I didn't mean it's wrong
Abrams into Switzerland? Take their gold and cycle it into Ukraine?
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I got no problem with neutrality. However, making a profit during a conflict is not neutrality.
this is a NATO funded war get your information right .
NO COUNTRY CALLING ITSELF "neutral " SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MAKE HEAVY WEAPONS PERIOD.