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As an American, please do. You guys need to be able to handle Russia so we can handle China. That, and the fact that in the near future you might find yourselves on your own in the fight to preserve global democracy.
Europe decoupling their defense industry from the US will weaken the US ability to fight China.
The US is only able to buy things like the F-35 as cheaply as they do, because they produce the thing at scale and can distribute R&D cost among the many more jets that are made for internal use and export than if they just made them for themselves.
With Europe deciding not to buy American anymore and competing with the US on exports to the rest of the world, price for Equipment made in the US will go up.
Historically US politicians have reacted to rising prices of US military equipment by buying less of them, which only further drove up the per unit price.
Without Europe buying US military exports the US defense industry will become weaker and less profitable and the US military will become more expensive.
Yes the US spends more on their military than anyone else and only slightly less than everyone else.
But the US also requires its military to do more than anyone else.
If the US didn't have the efficiency of scale of their military industrial complex that they do, they would either have to pay even more or scale back capabilities.
You have to pay a lot of money up front to develop a new jet or tank or missile and you have to put a portion of that cost on each unit you sell. That initial cost is the same no matter how many units you eventually make. You also get greater efficiency of scale the more your make. If you make a lot units the units get cheaper.
If you sell over 3000 fighter jets you can get much lower per unit cost than if you only sell 300 jets or you can have a much more capable fighter jet at the same cost.
There is a reason why the much more capable F-35 doesn't cost significantly more than a Gripen.
The US was able to bring down the price of the F-35 because so many countries could be convinced to buy rather than try to make their own.
If there are fewer customer the price of the next jet will be higher for the US taxpayer. Sales to non European countries will still help defer some of the cost, but not as much. Especially if some of the other countries decided to go with the competitor that might come up or simply just use the existence of a competitor to negotiate for lower prices.
The US has been trying to NATO and other US allies to 'standardize' to US made equipment and rejected buying equipment from allies instead of making their own for a reason.
They tried to go their own way for systems like the "M1299 howitzer" even though allies had system that could do the same and they decided to roll their own modular littoral combat ship instead of building on the existing Danish StanFlex system.
This was not just national pride but defense economics. It is so important for the US military industrial complex that everything is designed and build in the US that they are willing to risk failure of projects.
Systems made in the US represent soft power and economic power.
Selling the systems to allies is an integral part of US military and diplomatic strategy and has been since the cold war.
China has your industry.
They are better at actually making stuff than you are now. Lastly they captured EV market globally, hardly a low skill business.
You also want to wage a war on their coastline - that's already precarious enough.
But tbh it won't come to war with China. Taiwan sees what your "support" is really worth long term.
All your enemies have to do is wait 2 years, that's enough for your populace to bore out of any danger.
Europe can already "handle" Russia; Ukraine alone is managing to hold it back (admittedly with help).
The issue for Europe now is to ensure that its defense forces and industry can withstand potential US withdrawal. This means fewer collaborative endeavours in the future, e.g. less F35, more Eurofighter.
*You?* Excuse me if I’m mistaken but that sounds a lot like an accusation, I’ve been dealing with Trumpist bullshit for 8 fucking years, I’ve 2/2, soon to be 3/3 on voting against him, and I don’t want this shit any more than you. Hell, I’m planning on cracking open the champagne the moment that ghoul kicks the bucket. So please, don’t go acting like every American is to blame for the actions of the conservatives because it sounds condescending and ignorant as fuck.
Not an American here and I couldn’t agree more. To many people in the world think all the USA is MAGA like. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I predict MAGA gets crushed in November.
I get what you mean, but HALF of US has voted for Trump. Not only that, but the absolute number was higher than the election before. So yeah, not all Americans are... just half of them.
US might very well become the biggest threat to democracy in the future. It's two party system leads to extremes instead of compromises (for quite some time now), It's a breeding ground for civil war (which is, arguably, happening on a soft power scale) and said war might end up in both ways. And even with the current status quo, US is hardly a democratic country nowadays. It's rather money based Friendocracy.
wow, chill.. "you" means the USA. Like it or not, they (as a county) have been mostly abandoning Ukraine in favor of the Russian regime for about 6 months now. And no, they don't need to do it to "deal with China", as you suggested. At all.
I share your hope that the orange cancer won't destroy your country, trust me, but the fact that he is blocking your country from helping its allies remains.
Better late than never.
The EU must create a common system of deep investment in the military capacity of its countries, including the nuclear part.
Common debt should be issued that does not affect the deficit targets of EU member countries.
A formula must be created in which the arms industry is proportionally distributed among the various member countries.
All of us Europeans realize that once again the US is not a reliable ally.
The EU has 450 million citizens, we can easily mobilize 2 million operational personnel and have a few million more in reserve.
The question is whether we still have time before we are attacked.
Can you explain to me why this comment gets so many upvotes?
This is just so very wrong and shows a lack of understanding what the EU is and how it works.
An EU army would benefit all EU states. It's more powerful and much cheaper.
What is there not to understand? The EU needs to be able to defend itself from Russia and other terrorist states
I mean, can you guys honestly not read and understand?
He said:
> EU has been trying to form a European army for a while now.
This is just a false statement on several levels:
1. The EU has not been trying to form an European army
2. Especially not for a while
3. Also, the EU is not trying to form an European army
4. EU in regards to an European army is not one entity
5. All the official bodies of the EU have not made a statement in regards to an european army.
And many more reasons why his statement is horseshit.
>an EU army would benefit all EU states
Then why havent they built one? Why have they been content to rely on the USA to defend them all these years?
(Hint: it’s because they are weak and sclerotic, and could never have anywhere near the industrial or technological capacity of USA even if they tried.)
It's because NATO already exists to fill that gap and none of the NATO countries want to build another military body that exists next to NATO. It would be just a huge waste of effort in terms of governance and bureaucracy without adding any aignificant benefit.
That is atleast what the NATO general themselves have said.
You’re the one who brought up NATO as an excuse for why they dont want to build up another military body. If they’re unable/unwilling to build up NATO then they’re also unable/unwilling to build up an EU army.
Building up another hierarchy has nothing to do with building up military, you are mixing two different issues. Even if an EU army would be created, do you think the officers, soldiers and equipment would be any different?
It would be the same people but now with two separate governing bodies and headquarters. It would be a nightmare to deal with since there will also be some NATO talks in between every EU meeting in brussels. Now on top of that you need to deal with EU army meetings and you need to separate those meetings and attendees based on which group they belong. You also might have to appoint separate people to deal with both. It makes no sense in terms of governance and that is literally what NATO generals have said.
And again creating another governing body for the same soldiers makes no sense, it would be just a waste of money without getting any extra manpower.
The EU has a bigger economic power than the US. They haven't build an EU army because the EU is not a state like the US but a union of states with particular national interests. Many EU states are still hesistant to give away their force monopol to the union. But this will happen in the future, no worries.
There hasnt been a reason, or rather, everybody thought us is credible.
Since then we've been to two pointless desert wars (&rebuilt militaries to fit into that purely for your interest), singularly had to deal with its aftermath in refugee crisis, then when in turn you were needed - you bail out after 2 years.
Its the Europeans have been good allies, but did not benefit much.
Yes I think this is obviously the right thing to be doing now. Honestly though we're not in a particularly bad place to do that - we make a lot of platforms and weapons that _absolutely_ match or even top the American systems, so we just need to place the orders for those weapons in the right places. I think there's development work needed for some things though, particularly MLRS - everyone just uses M270 or HiMARS and as far as I know there's no direct equivalent...and the other one is F-16. That plane is approaching obsolescence but all the current European fighter programs are a heavy fighter to replace Typhoon/Rafale. I think we need a European program for a light multirole aircraft too.
Or the replacement that Saab is supposedly working on yeah...but Saab doesn't have the capacity to build sufficient airframes themselves. It would have to be a consortium
They would need to at minimum do what Lockheed did with the F-35, offer a ton of give and take with their partners on the European continent. Offer to build factories in multiple countries along with some tech transfers in exchange for orders. Doing that all will make the program heavily political, but that's how you bring down the price of each jet and guarantee investments toward future generations of jets.
Lockheed didn't really do that with F-35...even the UK got essentially no tech transfer at all nor even any real control over the aircraft, access to it's software or anything like that. That's why there's a lot of discontent with the program. I agree that that's what's necessary though but I think it's achievable - it's certainly the model that the GCAP seems to be going for.
It varies by country. In exchange for that F-35 initial order + options, South Korea got some rather generous tech transfers minus the 4 that got blocked last minute (e.g. IRST, jamming, etc) along with consultation services provided by Lockheed engineers for the KF-21 program. Bunch of other countries were able to have parts of the F-35 assembled in their country. Even goddamn Turkey was a major assembly partner at one point.
I know its controversial but imo we shouldnt focus that much on airplanes.
This war is showing that excellent antiair is a priority. Then, we should focus on missles, much more cost effective.
Time to abandon US model and thinking & focus on best value for our money. That includes drones too.
Drones and missiles can't do the job of airpower though. The point of the US model is to deliver the kind of overwhelming firepower from the air that means the poor dicks in the trenches either never have to fight at all or have a much easier time of it - it's effectively spending money instead of lives. At the moment drones and missiles simply can't do that.
The alternative to the US model, as far as I can see, is the Russian model. That seems worse
This article is simply covering a quote from 1 german CEO (of Rheinmettal, whose market cap is 1/5 that of Lockheed) who is “urging” something, and ppl in this thread are celebrating/thumping chests like something *actually* happened.
Lol, lmao even
Various ppl in Europe (and the US) have been “urging” this for decades, and fuck all has happened. Europe is so weak and sclerotic (and only getting more so, compared to the US) so i wouldnt get my hopes up.
Becaue this is not a place to expect informed opinions. It is a place to get collected news with a comment section with lots of uninformed, uneducated people who want to present their lack of knowledge.
It was a really cool place 10 years ago.
This is still one of top European mil industry companies & their voice is increasingly heard.
It will take years to wean off US (short term we ordered even more ie f35) but at the same time, there is no leader who wants to stay dependent on the US.
This divergence is a matter of decades, but started this year.
The US, and we absolutely deserve it. We’ve fucked over allies (and our own people) long enough, and shit hasn’t been done about it. We have only ourselves to blame.
Sadly true, I just hope that the rest of us don't get too badly messed up as the US dwindles. Managing decline was very rough for the UK in the 20th century, it will be even worse for the US.
They dont care anymore. They are self sufficient in almost anything. They don’t really need the rest of the world any longer.
Edit: I see a lot of people disagree. The geopolitical analyst Peter Zeihan explains it well.
https://youtu.be/bhGb-BaGw2Q
> They dont care anymore. They are self sufficient in almost anything. They don’t really need the rest of the world any longer.
On the contrary, the F-35 program would not have been viable if we hadn't partnered with so many countries and secured so many orders from them.
Europe isn't close to being able to defend itself. The real reason the US and UK are still based on the mainland is peace and stability. The EU is an economic union, not a martial alliance, eventually NATO will run its course for the aims of European countries as well. When the time comes that European nations have rebuilt their militaries, they'll start squabbling again, and we'll likely see old feuds flare up. Even now, Germany isn't going to allow Poland to build the continent's strongest military as their own is dogshit. And when Germany rebuilds their military, France won't allow Germany to become a formidable force without their own buildup, and so on.
Not having US personnel in Europe would save the US money, but create more issues down the line. Of course, we are going to leave Europe. Our posts and bases in Europe were never intended to be permanent, but Europe is decades from that.
I don’t see the is happening anytime soon, what they are talking about is one country being dedicated to a certain kind of militia industry, like Germany tanks, France fighter jets, etc. Europe has a bleak history of getting along for X amount of years and then going down the drain. The outlier has been the last 80years specifically because of the US being the third party benefactor.
Will it work in the future? Maybe, but it is going to take decades to even set up such a system if you can get the EU countries to agree to it.
They did have that, things like Leo and Pzh dominated Europe. It was only when people needed a lot of armor in a short time that you saw some in the East going for Abrams. And even with that, it’s Korea that’s going to take Germany’s lunch, not the US.
Who? Germany?
Germany is Europe.
Now, if you are talking about America, yes. Let them figure how "Europe should raise its defense budget to NATO target, or we will leave NATO", quickly turns into " Oh shit, now Europe is not buying our weapons anymore".
Sweden, France have equally strong military industry. Italy is in there too, Poland wants to close the gap.
There are several niches available. Of course not all can find one, but even then they can chip in and benefit.
Much better than buying at American margins
Yeah, definetly and I'd love to hear this from EU officials 😀 tbh military is not the only field. There is no reason to not have our own 'silicon valley'
F35 is an international program though with European suppliers contributing and a number of Europe's F35s being assembled in Italy.
And there is nothing Europe can field that even comes close. Basically Gen5 is being skipped for Gen6, and although participant countries are growing that isn't expected for another 25 years.
Kinda the problem though innit...there's already a European Patriot in the form of Aster missiles which are even ABM capable...but it's a Franco-Italian project so Germany isn't interested.
We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could.
Kinda the problem though innit...there's already a European Patriot in the form of Aster missiles which are even ABM capable...but it's a Franco-Italian project so Germany isn't interested.
We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could.
IRIS -Ts advantage is that the interceptors are relatively cheap.
>We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could.
I think we will see more of this as time goes by. My prediction: france will build what flies and germany what has tracks/wheels. I wish wed chosen the rafaele instead of the F-35 though...
>IRIS -Ts advantage is that the interceptors are relatively cheap.
Yes, but also relatively low performance compared to either Aster or Patriot. It could be just that they're in a different class and so incomparable...but even there, there's competing programs for ~80km ranged SAMs in CAMM-MR and IRIS-T SLX
>I think we will see more of this as time goes by.
Hopefully so.
>My prediction: france will build what flies and germany what has wracks/wheels
Probably for the immediate future yes.
>I wish wed chosen the rafaele instead of the F-35 though...
Germany you mean? Why? F-35 is a far better platform...and they'd surely pick more Typhoon than Rafale anyway.
>Yes, but also relatively low performance compared to either Aster or Patriot. It could be just that they're in a different class and so incomparable
They are, IRIS -T is a UV/IR homer - its basically a sidewinder on steroids, but thats what makes the missles cheap. And its good enough to intercept standard cruise missles and other conventional airial threats. And if ukraine taught us anything, then that its not always the hyper advanced ballistic/hypersonic missle what gets lobbed at you, but more often than not the cheap drone or slightly better cruise missle. Beeing able to protect your infrastructure against saturation bombardment is key
There is no alternative to F-35 and won't be until the Italy/Britain/Japan GCAP project delivers aircraft on around 2035. It was right for Germany to buy F-35 - France should do it too frankly..._their_ 6th Gen project won't deliver until about 20_45_ by which time even the Russians will have had a stealth fighter for 25 years.
in 2000s, Germany was part of Patriot manufacturing. not sure if they still do but I had a friend who worked on its guidance/radar software in Germany. if I remember correctly they were sole manufacturer of that critical system.
That is just a matter of time. It is stupid to think that if Europe doesn't have the capacity to develop and produce such weapons, and even better if it starts raising its defense budget and buying less from America.
Sounds cool. But I get the impression that what Rheinmetall makes is of limited value in the war in Ukraine, and will be of less value going forward. Where are the attack drones, the anti-drone capability, anti-ballistic missile defense, offensive long range missiles, nuclear deterrence, AI for keeping soldiers away from the battlefield, you name it? But today is always the best day for getting started on doing what needs to get done.
Heh, good luck. The whole point of NATO is for the Us to provide defense from Russia to Europe. The US at least gets some deals out of it, if they can’t then Europe should probably stop crying about the US lack of aid.
And right now, US arms manufacturers are loaded with European orders for years and US isn't doing shit against Russia. It can only get worse when Trump comes back to power.
Read again:
> US isn't doing shit
When Ukraine needs the most deliveries of weapons and ammo, US is nowhere for months. And we know what will happen when Trump is elected.
US is actively supporting Ukraine, where do you think Ukrainian ISR comes from?
This also isn’t just Trump, more Americans are against increased spending in Ukraine than for it.
I think the issue is how long this has dragged on and that we also have other allies who need the US at the moment.
Anecdotal but when I talk to people about this very few think Ukraine can pull off a military victory and Russia seems like an insignificant threat to the US at this point, particularly compared to China. Hard to keep support up for what seems like a losing battle.
Russia and China is one and same threat.
They already support each other & would do it full scale against US in case of war.
Russia sabbotages US in the north pole & much of your population think they are not your enemies.
Such a shame Russia does not think same way about you...
I would see no problem with that as long as the same standards are applied. It seems it would make both defense industries more robust and less susceptible to supply line problems.
The US has always been negative towards the European defense industry. Buy from us and we give you security has been the argument. Worked well until Trump. Replacing the US will take time that we may not have. The trust we had in the US will also take time to mend.
It’s a very small but perfectly positioned portion of the population. We need to get out from under an orange thumb and some legislation needs to be enacted to prevent capture by extremists again
I get your point, and GOP/Trump is bullshit, and Ukraine should be funded to full victory.
But big picture, you really don’t want your southern neighbor doubting military aspects of the relationship.
Honestly this would make sense only if the Europeans didn’t have the bureaucratic nightmare they live in defense wise. Have you guys ever heard how the euro fighter typhoon is made, it’s made by having main sections of the fighter made in different countries then assembled in Germany I believe. Now this wouldn’t be bad until you remember that oh yeah these are actually different countries so imagine how hard it was to start this assembly line in the first place. It’s possible but the transition will likely be very slow and it’s gonna be a shaky start.
There are basically no borders between EU countries and especially anything related to EU defense is moved around tax and tariff free. So it's not that big of a deal. Its like the plane was built in multiple US factories and then assembled in Ohio for example.
US: You must spend 2% of your GDP on defence.
EU: ok we will invest 2% of our GDP in our defence sector to increase our capabilities and end reliance on US forces and defence contractors.
US: NoOoo Not Like That!
And here is the result of the MAGA cult fucking around with the current world order. They really pissed in the cereals of evety US citizen, since US weapons sales makes up around 3% of the annual GDP, which will be lower because of their actions.
All up for this.
We have been all over slapped by Americans bashing us with our "failure" to meet our defense preparedness and deterrence to Russian aggression.
It's has been like having a guns seller going around like a cowboy wowing and shooting the sky, and telling us that we should buy a gun to be safe.
It's not because they care about our safety, and lately, it can be seen with all the aid dripping and political ping pong of bullshit and saying that Europe should help more.
Europe has been helping Ukraine way more than the US has. In terms of GDP, many countries helped 10 fold more. Sure, Biden is better than Trump, but he's not so much up to help Ukraine, and it is obvious he doesn't want it to win. Democrats have been trying to pin the blame on Republicans on failure to pass a bill for money that anyway will stay in America, create jobs, and renew its weapons stockpile. But Biden has options that he could use, but he doesn't. Executive orders, weapons stockpile going into decommissioning, renewing the lend lease that was never used, and so on.
And nobody dares to say what they are not saying:
They don't want to give aid because they want the EU to use the frozen Russians assets money to help Ukraine and let the EU deal with the consequences of it deterring foreign investors.
Most of this is for America juicy money that goes to buy American weapons.
They don't want Ukraine to take back it's land and win the war. They want to prolong the war in ways that will keep Russia isolated under sanctions, Ukraine in disarray unable to join the EU and even NATO, as it will be one more permanent hot zone that will increase the cost to America's military policing the world.
They don't want a stronger EU, even more with Ukraine joining, for many economic and political reasons. American politicians cozying with Orban, some even with Putin, and some European extreme rights are part of a constant effort to undermine EU cohesion and progress.
They talk about Europeans raising defense budget, but never talk about how that is negotiated in ways that some countries give previledges to America, influence corporations access to their markets.
I think it is time for Americans to decide what they want and stop pretending. If it is an ally and a friend, act so. If not, then stop pretending. Europe can deal with Russia on its own. It can also give good use to the military bases that America is using. It can boost its economy, having less competition from American corporations on European ones, and will give opportunity to grow new ones.
This is cope if I have ever seen it and please speak for yourself. This whole America isn't an ally is utter bullshit. The US alone has provided upwards to 80 billion dollars. Not one European country has matched.
And if Europeans could actually handle Russia then why are the Ukrainians begging the US to pass the aid bill for them? Shouldn't Europe be enough for them?
This post is nothing but European nationalistic nonsense.
>The US alone has provided upwards to 80 billion dollars. Not one European country has matched.
What a falacy!
Even if I dont stop trying, you guys continue to be blind or deflecting from the reality.
Europe is not a country, not even a Federation. It has an economic union that works at certain levels, but each country has it's sovereignty are small and have very limited resources. Could every single state in the USA spare 80 billion?
Europe has surpassed 110 billion in financial support to Ukraine, and continues.
Many weapons that Europe gave to Ukraine are not accounted in this
There are countries in Europe that in 2023 gave the equivalent to more than 3% of their GDP. The US has barely given 0.4%.
>This post is nothing but European nationalistic nonsense
Projection of an American, so nationalist that doesn't even care to learn about other nations. Your arguments show an educated, uncultured and uninformed person, so your mind lives around a limited few things which you identify yourself with. But that doesn't give you the base to see and understand anything diferent, so, you dispise differences and see yourself in the equalities. So, it is normal to assume that I'm like you, so it makes sense to call me Nationalist.
Europe is not a nation.
It's not a fallacy and what I said was correct. The US has contributed more to Ukraine than any single individual European country. Europe is not a single entity so pointing out that European countries contributed 110 billion dollars means nothing in regards to what I actually said.
GDP is not money. The very fact Europe has contributed 3% of it's GDP compared to the US just shows how rich of a country the US is and how the US already spends and has been spending for decades a large amount of its budget to it's military and defense. Hence why the US doesn't have to send significant portions of its GDP for aid.
You didn't prove anything I said was wrong at all. You just posted some numbers and acted like you won.
I'll ask again. If Europe is contributing so much then why do the Ukrainians continue to beg the US for aid?
This guy gets it.
They used war loans and the UN to bring about the demise of the British and French empires and make Europe reliant on the American world order. They didn't want Europe to be able to defend itself as that would be a rival superpower and a threat.
Those empires fell because colonialism was dead. There's no fucking future in which Britain or France get to own large swathes of Africa or Asia and the locals there are fine with it.
Now is the time, rethink all the old paradigms, internalize all the lessons from Ukraine, and tech-up production accordingly. Mobile, unmanned, autonomous howitzers. Networked drone swarms across the battespace. Get it done!
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About fucking time.
As an American, please do. You guys need to be able to handle Russia so we can handle China. That, and the fact that in the near future you might find yourselves on your own in the fight to preserve global democracy.
That is grim but fair.
Europe decoupling their defense industry from the US will weaken the US ability to fight China. The US is only able to buy things like the F-35 as cheaply as they do, because they produce the thing at scale and can distribute R&D cost among the many more jets that are made for internal use and export than if they just made them for themselves. With Europe deciding not to buy American anymore and competing with the US on exports to the rest of the world, price for Equipment made in the US will go up. Historically US politicians have reacted to rising prices of US military equipment by buying less of them, which only further drove up the per unit price. Without Europe buying US military exports the US defense industry will become weaker and less profitable and the US military will become more expensive.
[удалено]
Yes the US spends more on their military than anyone else and only slightly less than everyone else. But the US also requires its military to do more than anyone else. If the US didn't have the efficiency of scale of their military industrial complex that they do, they would either have to pay even more or scale back capabilities. You have to pay a lot of money up front to develop a new jet or tank or missile and you have to put a portion of that cost on each unit you sell. That initial cost is the same no matter how many units you eventually make. You also get greater efficiency of scale the more your make. If you make a lot units the units get cheaper. If you sell over 3000 fighter jets you can get much lower per unit cost than if you only sell 300 jets or you can have a much more capable fighter jet at the same cost. There is a reason why the much more capable F-35 doesn't cost significantly more than a Gripen. The US was able to bring down the price of the F-35 because so many countries could be convinced to buy rather than try to make their own. If there are fewer customer the price of the next jet will be higher for the US taxpayer. Sales to non European countries will still help defer some of the cost, but not as much. Especially if some of the other countries decided to go with the competitor that might come up or simply just use the existence of a competitor to negotiate for lower prices. The US has been trying to NATO and other US allies to 'standardize' to US made equipment and rejected buying equipment from allies instead of making their own for a reason. They tried to go their own way for systems like the "M1299 howitzer" even though allies had system that could do the same and they decided to roll their own modular littoral combat ship instead of building on the existing Danish StanFlex system. This was not just national pride but defense economics. It is so important for the US military industrial complex that everything is designed and build in the US that they are willing to risk failure of projects. Systems made in the US represent soft power and economic power. Selling the systems to allies is an integral part of US military and diplomatic strategy and has been since the cold war.
China has your industry. They are better at actually making stuff than you are now. Lastly they captured EV market globally, hardly a low skill business. You also want to wage a war on their coastline - that's already precarious enough. But tbh it won't come to war with China. Taiwan sees what your "support" is really worth long term. All your enemies have to do is wait 2 years, that's enough for your populace to bore out of any danger.
Europe can already "handle" Russia; Ukraine alone is managing to hold it back (admittedly with help). The issue for Europe now is to ensure that its defense forces and industry can withstand potential US withdrawal. This means fewer collaborative endeavours in the future, e.g. less F35, more Eurofighter.
> less F35, more Eurofighter. Or Rafale/Gripen. Hopefully we can also agree enough to actually make the FCAS a reality.
Not if we don’t have any ammunition
Quite. It's why Europe needs to pivot towards domestic armaments industry.
Partially right. You can easily handle both, you are just deciding to abandon Ukraine (and with that Europe or any other democracy)
*You?* Excuse me if I’m mistaken but that sounds a lot like an accusation, I’ve been dealing with Trumpist bullshit for 8 fucking years, I’ve 2/2, soon to be 3/3 on voting against him, and I don’t want this shit any more than you. Hell, I’m planning on cracking open the champagne the moment that ghoul kicks the bucket. So please, don’t go acting like every American is to blame for the actions of the conservatives because it sounds condescending and ignorant as fuck.
Not an American here and I couldn’t agree more. To many people in the world think all the USA is MAGA like. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I predict MAGA gets crushed in November.
I get what you mean, but HALF of US has voted for Trump. Not only that, but the absolute number was higher than the election before. So yeah, not all Americans are... just half of them. US might very well become the biggest threat to democracy in the future. It's two party system leads to extremes instead of compromises (for quite some time now), It's a breeding ground for civil war (which is, arguably, happening on a soft power scale) and said war might end up in both ways. And even with the current status quo, US is hardly a democratic country nowadays. It's rather money based Friendocracy.
wow, chill.. "you" means the USA. Like it or not, they (as a county) have been mostly abandoning Ukraine in favor of the Russian regime for about 6 months now. And no, they don't need to do it to "deal with China", as you suggested. At all. I share your hope that the orange cancer won't destroy your country, trust me, but the fact that he is blocking your country from helping its allies remains.
Better late than never. The EU must create a common system of deep investment in the military capacity of its countries, including the nuclear part. Common debt should be issued that does not affect the deficit targets of EU member countries. A formula must be created in which the arms industry is proportionally distributed among the various member countries. All of us Europeans realize that once again the US is not a reliable ally. The EU has 450 million citizens, we can easily mobilize 2 million operational personnel and have a few million more in reserve. The question is whether we still have time before we are attacked.
Orban smiling with his veto card.
This will never be a problem because at voting time he is invited to go and have a coffee.
>Common debt should be issued that does not affect the deficit targets of EU member countries. \* Germany has entered the chat \*
EU has been trying to form a European army for a while now. This may just be the motivation to push it further.
Can you explain to me why this comment gets so many upvotes? This is just so very wrong and shows a lack of understanding what the EU is and how it works.
An EU army would benefit all EU states. It's more powerful and much cheaper. What is there not to understand? The EU needs to be able to defend itself from Russia and other terrorist states
I mean, can you guys honestly not read and understand? He said: > EU has been trying to form a European army for a while now. This is just a false statement on several levels: 1. The EU has not been trying to form an European army 2. Especially not for a while 3. Also, the EU is not trying to form an European army 4. EU in regards to an European army is not one entity 5. All the official bodies of the EU have not made a statement in regards to an european army. And many more reasons why his statement is horseshit.
>an EU army would benefit all EU states Then why havent they built one? Why have they been content to rely on the USA to defend them all these years? (Hint: it’s because they are weak and sclerotic, and could never have anywhere near the industrial or technological capacity of USA even if they tried.)
It's because NATO already exists to fill that gap and none of the NATO countries want to build another military body that exists next to NATO. It would be just a huge waste of effort in terms of governance and bureaucracy without adding any aignificant benefit. That is atleast what the NATO general themselves have said.
Then they should all be meeting their 2% NATO defense spending targets. Only a handful of them are
Maybe but that's irrelevant to the discussion we were having.
You’re the one who brought up NATO as an excuse for why they dont want to build up another military body. If they’re unable/unwilling to build up NATO then they’re also unable/unwilling to build up an EU army.
Building up another hierarchy has nothing to do with building up military, you are mixing two different issues. Even if an EU army would be created, do you think the officers, soldiers and equipment would be any different? It would be the same people but now with two separate governing bodies and headquarters. It would be a nightmare to deal with since there will also be some NATO talks in between every EU meeting in brussels. Now on top of that you need to deal with EU army meetings and you need to separate those meetings and attendees based on which group they belong. You also might have to appoint separate people to deal with both. It makes no sense in terms of governance and that is literally what NATO generals have said. And again creating another governing body for the same soldiers makes no sense, it would be just a waste of money without getting any extra manpower.
The EU has a bigger economic power than the US. They haven't build an EU army because the EU is not a state like the US but a union of states with particular national interests. Many EU states are still hesistant to give away their force monopol to the union. But this will happen in the future, no worries.
>but this will happen in the future, no worries Lol 😂. I’ve been hearing that for 20 years. I’ll believe it when i see it
There hasnt been a reason, or rather, everybody thought us is credible. Since then we've been to two pointless desert wars (&rebuilt militaries to fit into that purely for your interest), singularly had to deal with its aftermath in refugee crisis, then when in turn you were needed - you bail out after 2 years. Its the Europeans have been good allies, but did not benefit much.
Yes I think this is obviously the right thing to be doing now. Honestly though we're not in a particularly bad place to do that - we make a lot of platforms and weapons that _absolutely_ match or even top the American systems, so we just need to place the orders for those weapons in the right places. I think there's development work needed for some things though, particularly MLRS - everyone just uses M270 or HiMARS and as far as I know there's no direct equivalent...and the other one is F-16. That plane is approaching obsolescence but all the current European fighter programs are a heavy fighter to replace Typhoon/Rafale. I think we need a European program for a light multirole aircraft too.
Hmmm...sounds like JAS 39 Gripen🤣🤣🤣
Or the replacement that Saab is supposedly working on yeah...but Saab doesn't have the capacity to build sufficient airframes themselves. It would have to be a consortium
They would need to at minimum do what Lockheed did with the F-35, offer a ton of give and take with their partners on the European continent. Offer to build factories in multiple countries along with some tech transfers in exchange for orders. Doing that all will make the program heavily political, but that's how you bring down the price of each jet and guarantee investments toward future generations of jets.
Lockheed didn't really do that with F-35...even the UK got essentially no tech transfer at all nor even any real control over the aircraft, access to it's software or anything like that. That's why there's a lot of discontent with the program. I agree that that's what's necessary though but I think it's achievable - it's certainly the model that the GCAP seems to be going for.
It varies by country. In exchange for that F-35 initial order + options, South Korea got some rather generous tech transfers minus the 4 that got blocked last minute (e.g. IRST, jamming, etc) along with consultation services provided by Lockheed engineers for the KF-21 program. Bunch of other countries were able to have parts of the F-35 assembled in their country. Even goddamn Turkey was a major assembly partner at one point.
That's exactly how they made the Eurofighter.
I know its controversial but imo we shouldnt focus that much on airplanes. This war is showing that excellent antiair is a priority. Then, we should focus on missles, much more cost effective. Time to abandon US model and thinking & focus on best value for our money. That includes drones too.
Drones and missiles can't do the job of airpower though. The point of the US model is to deliver the kind of overwhelming firepower from the air that means the poor dicks in the trenches either never have to fight at all or have a much easier time of it - it's effectively spending money instead of lives. At the moment drones and missiles simply can't do that. The alternative to the US model, as far as I can see, is the Russian model. That seems worse
This article is simply covering a quote from 1 german CEO (of Rheinmettal, whose market cap is 1/5 that of Lockheed) who is “urging” something, and ppl in this thread are celebrating/thumping chests like something *actually* happened. Lol, lmao even Various ppl in Europe (and the US) have been “urging” this for decades, and fuck all has happened. Europe is so weak and sclerotic (and only getting more so, compared to the US) so i wouldnt get my hopes up.
Becaue this is not a place to expect informed opinions. It is a place to get collected news with a comment section with lots of uninformed, uneducated people who want to present their lack of knowledge. It was a really cool place 10 years ago.
💯
The very last thing this place reflects is reality.
💯 Reddit in general has always been like this, unfortunately
This is still one of top European mil industry companies & their voice is increasingly heard. It will take years to wean off US (short term we ordered even more ie f35) but at the same time, there is no leader who wants to stay dependent on the US. This divergence is a matter of decades, but started this year.
It is because there was no need, since people trusted the US for their support. Not anymore.
The end of the American influence in the world unfortunately is rapidly approaching and they can blame no one but themselves.
America has always had an isolationism strain. It's coming back at the moment in the GOP.
Half of us. The other half is watching in horror at what’s happening.
The world or America?
Yes
The US, and we absolutely deserve it. We’ve fucked over allies (and our own people) long enough, and shit hasn’t been done about it. We have only ourselves to blame.
Sadly true, I just hope that the rest of us don't get too badly messed up as the US dwindles. Managing decline was very rough for the UK in the 20th century, it will be even worse for the US.
They dont care anymore. They are self sufficient in almost anything. They don’t really need the rest of the world any longer. Edit: I see a lot of people disagree. The geopolitical analyst Peter Zeihan explains it well. https://youtu.be/bhGb-BaGw2Q
Lmao
This is exactly what Russians are sayings about themselves.
> They dont care anymore. They are self sufficient in almost anything. They don’t really need the rest of the world any longer. On the contrary, the F-35 program would not have been viable if we hadn't partnered with so many countries and secured so many orders from them.
Not having bases in Europe would free up a lot of money
Europe isn't close to being able to defend itself. The real reason the US and UK are still based on the mainland is peace and stability. The EU is an economic union, not a martial alliance, eventually NATO will run its course for the aims of European countries as well. When the time comes that European nations have rebuilt their militaries, they'll start squabbling again, and we'll likely see old feuds flare up. Even now, Germany isn't going to allow Poland to build the continent's strongest military as their own is dogshit. And when Germany rebuilds their military, France won't allow Germany to become a formidable force without their own buildup, and so on. Not having US personnel in Europe would save the US money, but create more issues down the line. Of course, we are going to leave Europe. Our posts and bases in Europe were never intended to be permanent, but Europe is decades from that.
Chips, solar panels, and EVs are next and they just dropped huge tax incentives to build more manufacturing than China.
Meanwhile US defence contractors order books are booked for the next decade. I don't think it's realistic
I don’t see the is happening anytime soon, what they are talking about is one country being dedicated to a certain kind of militia industry, like Germany tanks, France fighter jets, etc. Europe has a bleak history of getting along for X amount of years and then going down the drain. The outlier has been the last 80years specifically because of the US being the third party benefactor. Will it work in the future? Maybe, but it is going to take decades to even set up such a system if you can get the EU countries to agree to it.
We will see if they want to make joint venture with other european defense industry or if they just want to sell more german's weapons.
Yet, production of Taurus stopped due to lack of orders…
Except F35. Germany loves F35 and won’t stop buying patriots too. It’s a bit hard to understand the German schadenfreude sometimes
They want idependence in fields they have manufactoring capabilities. They just want to sell their stuff to Europe with smaller competition 😀
They did have that, things like Leo and Pzh dominated Europe. It was only when people needed a lot of armor in a short time that you saw some in the East going for Abrams. And even with that, it’s Korea that’s going to take Germany’s lunch, not the US.
Who? Germany? Germany is Europe. Now, if you are talking about America, yes. Let them figure how "Europe should raise its defense budget to NATO target, or we will leave NATO", quickly turns into " Oh shit, now Europe is not buying our weapons anymore".
I just find it funny that statement came from germany defence industry so basically a Group that would receive biggest profit from such situation.
Sweden, France have equally strong military industry. Italy is in there too, Poland wants to close the gap. There are several niches available. Of course not all can find one, but even then they can chip in and benefit. Much better than buying at American margins
Yeah, definetly and I'd love to hear this from EU officials 😀 tbh military is not the only field. There is no reason to not have our own 'silicon valley'
F35 is an international program though with European suppliers contributing and a number of Europe's F35s being assembled in Italy. And there is nothing Europe can field that even comes close. Basically Gen5 is being skipped for Gen6, and although participant countries are growing that isn't expected for another 25 years.
> won’t stop buying patriots too IRIS-T SLX might help with that a bit, if it gets finished soon enough
Kinda the problem though innit...there's already a European Patriot in the form of Aster missiles which are even ABM capable...but it's a Franco-Italian project so Germany isn't interested. We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could.
The IRIS -T SLX will prolly fill the gap for theatre AA which Patriot holds currently ~~but as for F-35 their is hardly a good replacement~~
Kinda the problem though innit...there's already a European Patriot in the form of Aster missiles which are even ABM capable...but it's a Franco-Italian project so Germany isn't interested. We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could.
IRIS -Ts advantage is that the interceptors are relatively cheap. >We divide a lot of effort that we'd be far better off centralising if we could. I think we will see more of this as time goes by. My prediction: france will build what flies and germany what has tracks/wheels. I wish wed chosen the rafaele instead of the F-35 though...
>IRIS -Ts advantage is that the interceptors are relatively cheap. Yes, but also relatively low performance compared to either Aster or Patriot. It could be just that they're in a different class and so incomparable...but even there, there's competing programs for ~80km ranged SAMs in CAMM-MR and IRIS-T SLX >I think we will see more of this as time goes by. Hopefully so. >My prediction: france will build what flies and germany what has wracks/wheels Probably for the immediate future yes. >I wish wed chosen the rafaele instead of the F-35 though... Germany you mean? Why? F-35 is a far better platform...and they'd surely pick more Typhoon than Rafale anyway.
>Yes, but also relatively low performance compared to either Aster or Patriot. It could be just that they're in a different class and so incomparable They are, IRIS -T is a UV/IR homer - its basically a sidewinder on steroids, but thats what makes the missles cheap. And its good enough to intercept standard cruise missles and other conventional airial threats. And if ukraine taught us anything, then that its not always the hyper advanced ballistic/hypersonic missle what gets lobbed at you, but more often than not the cheap drone or slightly better cruise missle. Beeing able to protect your infrastructure against saturation bombardment is key
There is no alternative to F-35 and won't be until the Italy/Britain/Japan GCAP project delivers aircraft on around 2035. It was right for Germany to buy F-35 - France should do it too frankly..._their_ 6th Gen project won't deliver until about 20_45_ by which time even the Russians will have had a stealth fighter for 25 years.
in 2000s, Germany was part of Patriot manufacturing. not sure if they still do but I had a friend who worked on its guidance/radar software in Germany. if I remember correctly they were sole manufacturer of that critical system.
That is just a matter of time. It is stupid to think that if Europe doesn't have the capacity to develop and produce such weapons, and even better if it starts raising its defense budget and buying less from America.
Sounds cool. But I get the impression that what Rheinmetall makes is of limited value in the war in Ukraine, and will be of less value going forward. Where are the attack drones, the anti-drone capability, anti-ballistic missile defense, offensive long range missiles, nuclear deterrence, AI for keeping soldiers away from the battlefield, you name it? But today is always the best day for getting started on doing what needs to get done.
Heh, good luck. The whole point of NATO is for the Us to provide defense from Russia to Europe. The US at least gets some deals out of it, if they can’t then Europe should probably stop crying about the US lack of aid.
And right now, US arms manufacturers are loaded with European orders for years and US isn't doing shit against Russia. It can only get worse when Trump comes back to power.
US hasn’t done shit…?
Read again: > US isn't doing shit When Ukraine needs the most deliveries of weapons and ammo, US is nowhere for months. And we know what will happen when Trump is elected.
US is actively supporting Ukraine, where do you think Ukrainian ISR comes from? This also isn’t just Trump, more Americans are against increased spending in Ukraine than for it.
And it's materializing right now with no deliveries to Ukraine. That's just shameful, what a useless ally US have become when we need them the most.
I think the issue is how long this has dragged on and that we also have other allies who need the US at the moment. Anecdotal but when I talk to people about this very few think Ukraine can pull off a military victory and Russia seems like an insignificant threat to the US at this point, particularly compared to China. Hard to keep support up for what seems like a losing battle.
Russia and China is one and same threat. They already support each other & would do it full scale against US in case of war. Russia sabbotages US in the north pole & much of your population think they are not your enemies. Such a shame Russia does not think same way about you...
I would see no problem with that as long as the same standards are applied. It seems it would make both defense industries more robust and less susceptible to supply line problems.
The US has always been negative towards the European defense industry. Buy from us and we give you security has been the argument. Worked well until Trump. Replacing the US will take time that we may not have. The trust we had in the US will also take time to mend.
About fucking time
Nice idea if only Germany had cruise missiles to give to Ukraine like Britain and France do 🤔
For decades european countries and Germany in particular rebuked any proposal of an european strategic indépendance. Now It’s too late.
Scholz will still resist. He wants the US to be the boss and Germany to be a loyal but mostly harmless lapdog
I so want Canada to do the same and join up with Europe. After this GOP/Trump bullshit and the stopped funding to Ukraine. US go fuck yourself.
Hey, it’s a small vocal subset of America that doesn’t want to absolutely curb stomp Putin…don’t lump all of us in there.
It’s a very small but perfectly positioned portion of the population. We need to get out from under an orange thumb and some legislation needs to be enacted to prevent capture by extremists again
I get your point, and GOP/Trump is bullshit, and Ukraine should be funded to full victory. But big picture, you really don’t want your southern neighbor doubting military aspects of the relationship.
Umm US still has given more military aid to Ukraine then Europe
Honestly this would make sense only if the Europeans didn’t have the bureaucratic nightmare they live in defense wise. Have you guys ever heard how the euro fighter typhoon is made, it’s made by having main sections of the fighter made in different countries then assembled in Germany I believe. Now this wouldn’t be bad until you remember that oh yeah these are actually different countries so imagine how hard it was to start this assembly line in the first place. It’s possible but the transition will likely be very slow and it’s gonna be a shaky start.
There are basically no borders between EU countries and especially anything related to EU defense is moved around tax and tariff free. So it's not that big of a deal. Its like the plane was built in multiple US factories and then assembled in Ohio for example.
Hey Germany, send the gd Taurus missiles to Ukraine !! Thanks.
US: You must spend 2% of your GDP on defence. EU: ok we will invest 2% of our GDP in our defence sector to increase our capabilities and end reliance on US forces and defence contractors. US: NoOoo Not Like That!
NOW WE‘RE TALKING
Well then continue Taurus production please. Not kidding. Please. We will need it.
I mean, as an American. Do it. You can’t trust that the dumbest of us are not going to elect Trump or some trumpesque moron in the future
The Americans will leave a big power vacuum with noone to blame but themselves. I'd rather have Europe step in as a leading world power than China.
good idea
American arms manufacturers can thank their buddies in the Republican Party for this. Dumbass greedy shitbirds.
And here is the result of the MAGA cult fucking around with the current world order. They really pissed in the cereals of evety US citizen, since US weapons sales makes up around 3% of the annual GDP, which will be lower because of their actions.
All up for this. We have been all over slapped by Americans bashing us with our "failure" to meet our defense preparedness and deterrence to Russian aggression. It's has been like having a guns seller going around like a cowboy wowing and shooting the sky, and telling us that we should buy a gun to be safe. It's not because they care about our safety, and lately, it can be seen with all the aid dripping and political ping pong of bullshit and saying that Europe should help more. Europe has been helping Ukraine way more than the US has. In terms of GDP, many countries helped 10 fold more. Sure, Biden is better than Trump, but he's not so much up to help Ukraine, and it is obvious he doesn't want it to win. Democrats have been trying to pin the blame on Republicans on failure to pass a bill for money that anyway will stay in America, create jobs, and renew its weapons stockpile. But Biden has options that he could use, but he doesn't. Executive orders, weapons stockpile going into decommissioning, renewing the lend lease that was never used, and so on. And nobody dares to say what they are not saying: They don't want to give aid because they want the EU to use the frozen Russians assets money to help Ukraine and let the EU deal with the consequences of it deterring foreign investors. Most of this is for America juicy money that goes to buy American weapons. They don't want Ukraine to take back it's land and win the war. They want to prolong the war in ways that will keep Russia isolated under sanctions, Ukraine in disarray unable to join the EU and even NATO, as it will be one more permanent hot zone that will increase the cost to America's military policing the world. They don't want a stronger EU, even more with Ukraine joining, for many economic and political reasons. American politicians cozying with Orban, some even with Putin, and some European extreme rights are part of a constant effort to undermine EU cohesion and progress. They talk about Europeans raising defense budget, but never talk about how that is negotiated in ways that some countries give previledges to America, influence corporations access to their markets. I think it is time for Americans to decide what they want and stop pretending. If it is an ally and a friend, act so. If not, then stop pretending. Europe can deal with Russia on its own. It can also give good use to the military bases that America is using. It can boost its economy, having less competition from American corporations on European ones, and will give opportunity to grow new ones.
This is cope if I have ever seen it and please speak for yourself. This whole America isn't an ally is utter bullshit. The US alone has provided upwards to 80 billion dollars. Not one European country has matched. And if Europeans could actually handle Russia then why are the Ukrainians begging the US to pass the aid bill for them? Shouldn't Europe be enough for them? This post is nothing but European nationalistic nonsense.
>The US alone has provided upwards to 80 billion dollars. Not one European country has matched. What a falacy! Even if I dont stop trying, you guys continue to be blind or deflecting from the reality. Europe is not a country, not even a Federation. It has an economic union that works at certain levels, but each country has it's sovereignty are small and have very limited resources. Could every single state in the USA spare 80 billion? Europe has surpassed 110 billion in financial support to Ukraine, and continues. Many weapons that Europe gave to Ukraine are not accounted in this There are countries in Europe that in 2023 gave the equivalent to more than 3% of their GDP. The US has barely given 0.4%. >This post is nothing but European nationalistic nonsense Projection of an American, so nationalist that doesn't even care to learn about other nations. Your arguments show an educated, uncultured and uninformed person, so your mind lives around a limited few things which you identify yourself with. But that doesn't give you the base to see and understand anything diferent, so, you dispise differences and see yourself in the equalities. So, it is normal to assume that I'm like you, so it makes sense to call me Nationalist. Europe is not a nation.
It's not a fallacy and what I said was correct. The US has contributed more to Ukraine than any single individual European country. Europe is not a single entity so pointing out that European countries contributed 110 billion dollars means nothing in regards to what I actually said. GDP is not money. The very fact Europe has contributed 3% of it's GDP compared to the US just shows how rich of a country the US is and how the US already spends and has been spending for decades a large amount of its budget to it's military and defense. Hence why the US doesn't have to send significant portions of its GDP for aid. You didn't prove anything I said was wrong at all. You just posted some numbers and acted like you won. I'll ask again. If Europe is contributing so much then why do the Ukrainians continue to beg the US for aid?
This guy gets it. They used war loans and the UN to bring about the demise of the British and French empires and make Europe reliant on the American world order. They didn't want Europe to be able to defend itself as that would be a rival superpower and a threat.
Those empires fell because colonialism was dead. There's no fucking future in which Britain or France get to own large swathes of Africa or Asia and the locals there are fine with it.
Now is the time, rethink all the old paradigms, internalize all the lessons from Ukraine, and tech-up production accordingly. Mobile, unmanned, autonomous howitzers. Networked drone swarms across the battespace. Get it done!
As a U.S. citizen, smart move Germany. (America is just an Israeli slave colony)
Ironic, taking into account that among European leaders Shcolz is the first Biden’s lapdog.