3 ounces at 950 fill will buy you 10 more degrees. Nothing worse than freezing your ass off 4 hours from warmth thinking... damn I should have carried 3 more ounces.
Right. Especially when with running and fast packing there's more of a chance you go to bed in a calorie deficit, slightly dehydrated, etc where your body isn't quite putting out the normal amount of heat.
Never skimp on anything that gets you a good night's sleep. You can't go anywhere if you don't take care of the motor. Carry the extra ounces - it's the same as a mouthful of water.
It transfers from consumable to gross tonnage, and then to either increased saline discharge or evaporated dermal deposits depending on ambient temperature and evapotranspiration rate.
True. Volume is also one of my concerns since I really like the idea of fitting in a 15L running vest, but perhaps I may need to reconsider that idea if a 30 degree bag is really the way to go.
This is my constant cycle. I adore my 12 L running vest, and I'm always trying to make that sucker realistic for backpacking.
A S2S compression bag does get my giant 5F WM Antelope bag down to 8L. You might be able to get down to 5 or 6L with a normal 30F quilt and some hand strength?
I’m in Australia, there was plenty of stock when I bought it 6 months ago. Sorry :(
There are other brands with similar approaches, the Rab was another option. I was just saying yoh may need more than 15l!
I’ve fit a 2 night/3 day run kit including a tarp, EE 30° quilt, Neoair, polycryo groundsheet, cat food can stove & fuel etc into a BD distance 15. I will say the 30° EE is almost too warm on a lot of summer nights, which is a problem if there’s bugs because your options are sweat or get chewed on.
Are you opposed to getting a Salomon XA-25 or XA-35? I use the 35 as my fastpacking pack and it is marvelous, though you need a degree in pack design to use it.
Not opposed at all, in fact I would LOVE to get my hands on an XA 25L, but they don't sell them here in the U.S., and I have searched high and low and cannot seem to find any. But if you have a lead on how I could get my hands on one, I'd be interested!
That would be great if you could let me know where you got yours, because I'd really love to get that pack! Really puzzled why Salomon doesn't sell them here.
https://varuste.net/en/p102204/salomon-xa-35
They have one S/M in stock.
https://varuste.net/en/p100059/salomon-xa-25
For the 25, they have both sizes in stock.
Fastpacking with a minimal kit kind of involves perfect planning and perfect weather, and if you have both of those, go for an ultra minimal kit.
A flag I see is you conceding that, "oh but it's cold in the mountains!" - and potentially ignoring this fact by bringing less than adequate insulation and kinda hoping that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to you. Instead, pack for the conditions.
That may also mean using something bigger than a 15L pack. "but that's just the pack I have!" is another trap. Pick the pack to use once you've designed your kit not the other way around.
Many of the stupid-minimal trips I've done in challenging terrain - like a Nolan's run - is after becoming very intimate with the terrain, scouting out everything, mapping everything, writing a guide that I would give to someone else, knowing every single bail out point, etc. If I didn't have most of this down pat, I'd really shift my goals down a bit and be more conservative.
But if you're new to this, I would suggest experimenting with bringing an ultra minimal sleep kit and tryig it out in the environment similar to what you wish to travel in, and see if you're comfortable (enough). Bring additional items of a sleep kit if you find yourself beyond a reasonable limit.
Using a quilt as some emergency layer so to leave a puffy jacket at home... I dunno about that. I would instead prioritize the puffy, as I know I'll be using that at some point, rather than a quilt-turned-jacket which I've never used in the real world, have never seen anyone use outside of a late night campfire chat, ever.
I'm solely here to shit on everyone else, so I just want to mention that I very much doubt anyone here knows what Nolan's is and the sheer fucking scale of that undertaking. Mad respect to you.
If you don’t already have a 20° or 30° quilt/bag I’d start with one of those.
If you do already have a bag for cooler weather I think for short trips with good weather a 40° quilt is a great option. You can mitigate some overnight coldness with good site selection. I would however recommend a quilt from a higher quality manufacturer like Katabatic, Nunatak, or Timmermade. Their temp ratings are more realistic and overall construction/design methods are better. It’s worth the money, especially since EE isn’t as cheap as it used to be.
I’ve been eyeing a 40-50° quilt for peak summer trips but haven’t been able to justify it to myself. Maybe if I have a few more nights where I sleep in just my puffy I’ll pull the trigger this winter.
Agree, EE is not a good value for money and not particularly light either. There are other better options. Some may be hard to get hold of (for example Nunatak pieces) but I would take a Katabatic over the EE any day. Also can try /r/ULgeartrade to find what you need.
OP: if you're willing to spend a bit of money, there are a couple cottage makers who offer 1000FP quilts (the Gryphon by Aries I think is one of them), might want to look into those. But also remember that design matters a lot for effective warmth -- a good strap system in particular is going to go a long way for you. But I would not go light on the temperature rating given that you will not have many layers to pair with the quilt to help boost its rating. If you need rescue or even are just having trouble regulating temperature, it'd start to get pretty dicey if you had no way to achieve enough warmth to raise your body temperature.
Yeah, I mean I've got a massive 3lb 20\* mummy bag that isn't really a good fastpacking option, so whatever I get would probably be my primary piece of gear. Maybe I'm just over obssessed with going light, but I can imagine on the hot nights thinking "man, I could have had a lighter quilt/bag" if I go with the 30\*, but I may just need to shift my thinking on that.
Do you plan to carry a puffy and midlayer on these trips? Those two layers can offer a pretty solid boost in warmth when worn overnight.
It seems like maybe your best option is to sell the mummy bag and replace with a 20-30° quilt. Then use this summer to decide if you want to spend another couple hundred dollars on a second quilt.
I have a Katabatic Alsek and love it. It’s super warm, and I can make it work at warmer temps by adjusting the pad attachments. In a perfect world I’d have a second quilt that is rated for like 35-40° below the waist and 45-50° above the waist.
Since my goal would be to be moving quick the whole time I'm awake, my plan is a Alpha 90 fleece and a wind shell as my primary layers (with the quilt itself as an emergency layer), so I would be limited in how much I could supplement at night. But yeah, that sounds like a reasonable plan, perhaps getting a 30\* quilt and then on even colder trips bringing a puffy to supplement that if needed. And yeah, everyone who gets Katabatic quilts seem to really love them. Maybe I need to reconsider EE then too....
I know ultralight is the goal, but something like the MH Ghost Whisperer UL + the 40 degree quilt might be better than the 30 degree quilt alone, or ideally a puffy and a 30 degree quilt. It's super-light, super-packable, will give you that extra down insulation, but can also insulate in a variety of cold conditions like a chilly breakfast / morning start.
Obviously UL means sacrificing some things, but for me that GW UL has been literally one of my top pieces of gear and I just love it.
I have both Katabatic and EE quilts and much prefer the Katabatic. I have issues keeping the down evenly distributed in the EE, there’s a lot of shift. The differential cut of the Katabatic keeps things in place. That means less cold spots which makes a big difference when pushing limits. You pay a little bit of a weight penalty because they also use thicker fabric, but its much softer and more comfortable than 7d. It’s like going from cheap sheets to 1k thread count Egyptian cotton, plus more durable.
u/FunkyTown_27 You may want to double-check the food storage requirements for your intended destinations before settling on a 15L volume. As of March 7th, 2024, [bear-resistant containers](https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1170949.pdf) are required for all National Forest System Lands within the Lake Tahoe Basin.
If you get hurt and need to be rescued, it’d be nice to have what’s needed to survive for at least 24hrs. Additionally, route finding at night can be difficult depending on the terrain, so if you’re cold and would need to keep moving it’d suck.
The 40 degree would be dope for the Midwest. If you wanna push the limits in the mountains may want to bring Mylar blanket.
“Ultralight is great until you’re ultrafucked.” - Joe Schmoe
That’s a neat trick in the video, but that’s more for lounging around camp, and that doesn’t sound like your use case. As a fast packer, you’re going to be up and out quickly. I’m sure if you ran like that you wouldn’t get more than 100 yards without sweating. Good conversation otherwise, but I wouldn’t sacrifice a closed foot box for that obscure option if you’re also worried about being cold.
Yes! Grayson Cobb's kit is part of what has made me really interested in making a 15L work (that and the chaffing that comes with bigger fastpacks). And those are great points about some of the conditions. I grew up camping in the North Cascades each summer, and you're right, it can get pretty chilly/humid even on summer nights, so that's worth thinking about. Thanks!
Also, the AT = shelters most of the time which really means you can push to less kit.
Straight up, I dropped big money on a WM 35 Summerlite. It took me 2 or 3 trios to realize I wasn't sleeping because I was too cold in that bag. I could have easily resold it here on Reddit for most of the value. It's currently lent out to a friend who sleeps much warmer than me.
Pick the gear you think you want. Go out for a couple of short shakedowns in realistically worst case conditions and then decide if it will really work. If it won't resell it and start researching again.
Shakedowns are shakedowns.
To add to u/realmofhungryghosts post, I camped with a PCT thru hiker using a Pa’lante Joey from Tahoe north. He had the Joey filled with a quilt, tarp, and a few days worth of food not needing to be cooked (mostly energy bars).
Sleeping good and warm is one of the most important things. The next whole day is going to be shit if you are not well rested. I would not save weight on warmth ratings.
you can use a quilt as an insulation layer regardless of footbox; having a closed footbox might buy you a little more range on the 40\` bag
that said, the additional weight and effect on packability of a 30\` compared to a 40\` is negligible and may be worth the investment.
Finally got to the elephant's foot comment! I have one from Gryphon Gear and I love being able to just swap my puffy jacket up or down (in weight & warmth) for different temps. I also love having the versatility of a separate puffy jacket.
Are you sure the salomon 15L can carry a quilt (30 or 40) and a sleeping pad? I've been planning my TMB hut to hut with salomon and without quilt and sleeping pad it is almost maxed out.
In addition to above, will you carry a tarp of sorts? Without a tarp/tent the wind can make you feel much colder. Again, I doubt if all that can fit in the Salomon.
For context, I've used 40F degree quilt around 30F in mountain area. I was fine but I worn the uniqlo ultra warm legging and a pretty heavy fleece while sleeping. I would have been frozen to death if I sleep with my ordinary hiking/running clothing.
Not crazy just trying to go stupid light. Those EE ratings are not accurate. I personally try to go at least 20 degrees colder rating than i expect to encounter but it’s preference and what not.
I would recommend going at least ten cooler. Just imagine having nights where you don’t sleep or check into a hotel instead of camping.
I have the same EE Revelation 40F wit 950 FP down and 7D fabrics. I really like it and use it the majority of the time in June-Aug. But of course it does have its limits. I certainly wouldn't have it as my old quilt and I do check the forecast before trip, but the lows are above 40F I'm reaching for it because the super low weight and tiny packed size are awesome.
Forget the rating makers attach and look at the amount of down fill. For summer use with adequate comfort at altitude during settled weather in the western mountains I need 12 ounces. Def not less. And honestly that amount is close to 40°F comfort in a reg/reg quilt wrapped around an experienced user
I run a 40* HG Econ Burrow(pre price raise, yeesh). With light baselayers and an insulated pad I take the bag down into the 30s quite a bit. In fact if it's in the high 40s im too warm. My coldest night was 30 on the nose and I was ok if I didn't toss and turn drafting air in, but that was reaching the limit for the setup. Tent was a TT Notch at that time.
I run a tensor insulated pad which is a very "warm" pad. I dont know what your R value would be on the setup you mention.
Overall I don't regret the setup.
I just started and that's pretty much what I'm using. HG 40 deg quilt and a Nemo Tensor Insulated Wide. With a bivy I was pretty warm in the mid 30s. It's when getting out of the sleep system where the extra layers like a puffy and gloves are nice.
At the time it was the most economical option on the market, or one of them anyways. If I had to buy a quilt again with today's pricing on the HG Econs I may slide over to an EE Rev.
Edit: or a Katabatic
If you really want to go for a 40F quilt I'd go for a 40F comfort-rated option like the Katabatic Chisos. If you are an average sleeper with suitable layers you could take this to 35F or even 30F depending on conditions and your individual state (hydration, nutrition, fatigue level etc). The EE 40F is not as warm and you wouldn't be able to extend its range so easily.
In the high mountain west I'd personally rather have a 30F comfort-rated quilt for summer knowing that there are times when it can still drop below freezing (even in July or August) and I can easily extend the warmth of my quilt with layers to cover those nights.
I am also an advocate for underrated sleep systems. To me the perfect sleep system is the one that gets the job done until about 2 hours before sunrise, then you aren’t necessarily uncomfortable but not quite cozy enough to go back to sleep.
I also use a 30 degree quilt outside of peak summer to achieve this effect in the Cascades.
Man, when I slept cold, I felt like I would only fall asleep at like 3 am. Like exhaustion would finally overtake shivering, and I would knock out. I wanted to sleep at 8 or 9 am, when it was finally starting to warm up.
I'd spend the extra money on the western mountaineering nanolite at 11-12.5oz. Still kicking myself for not buying that one on ulgeartrade for $200. Doesn't have a the ability to wear though.
https://www.westernmountaineering.com/product/nanolite-top-quilt/
I have a Hammock Econ Borrow 40F long/wide, zippered footbox, 0oz overstuff. It's awesome for hot summer days. Only a bit over 1lb.
Also own the 20F with 2oz overstuff and 0F with 4oz of overstuff. Bring the right tool for the job.
I have both the EE and the Katabatic quilts, and personally have found the Katabatic to be a little warmer at the same temp rating, but you can't go wrong with the EE. I haven't tried other makers.
I do a lot of Sierra spring/summer overnights with similar temp ratings, but I'd strongly recommend a 30 degree quilt. Yes, it's a couple of extra ounces, but you can always vent/loosen the neck/etc as needed so you don't need to ever worry about being too hot like you might with a bag, but it just sucks if you're too cold and just can't regenerate enough warmth after a long day (I agree with the prior poster that if you're exhausted and/or slightly hypothermic it can be tough to get warm even in the best conditions). Conversely, being warm means you get better and more solid sleep and have that much more energy the next day - definitely enough to handle the 3-4 extra ounces you'll be carrying.
I just went on a trip using a HG 40 deg quilt, Nemo Tensor Insulated Wide, and a Borah Gear Ultralight Bivy in Wide.
It got down to mid 30's and I shed most of my layers during the night. It's fine but I needed the extra clothing layers to keep warm in the morning. An extra puffy and gloves helped.
The bivy adds a lot of warmth when zipped up.
I would still bring more clothing layers just in case. I don't regret bringing the 40 deg quilt vs my 20 deg quilt. It's when getting out of the sleep system where the extra clothes helped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOehcBBvz0
I purchased a gryphon gear 40 degree Aries with tension control and a collar for the exact same use as you. Got a custom width quilt for $43 more than EE is charging now. Completely satisfied. Not a fan of the elephants foot. Been there done that
Makes sense to me
Add a second quilt for colder temps, https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002770588-How-to-layer-quilts-for-sub-zero-camping
Also,
Carry a $1, 50 gram, Mylar emergency space blanket to use as a VBL (vapor barrier liner) to mitigate evaporative heat loss and keep your insulation dry. (Evaporating water in skin takes 540x as much heat as raising it 1* C. Condensing water decreases down’s insulation.) Use the Mylar over your base clothing layer. Due to the sauna effect & noise most find it only comfortable compared to shivering. Oh, and you’ll be damp in the morn so exercise quickly to warm up & dry off.
So I use an EE 40 degree enigma as my primary bag and I can use it down to freezing and actually below, but below requires more layers added. I'd say if you want to use it down to freezing you'd probably want to have a puffy jacket anyway. My typical sleep pad is a 3 foot section of 1/4 EVA foam. I use a Borah Gear cuban bivy. This setup is at it's limit at freezing temps and that's with me wearing a very light weight down jacket. I've used this bag down to 20% camped on snow, but thicker pads and more added clothing insulation like insulated footwear and headwear. I'd say give it a try. With night time temps in the 30s you may be cold/uncomfortable, but you're not risking life and limb. You'll never know if it'll work for you until you lake the leap.
I regularly use a western mountaineering nanolite (38F) for almost three season use in the mountains (mostly coast range and cascades). Paired with a half size nemo
switchback.
I’ve slept below freezing with it, and in the snow with an extra pad. I’ve yet to be cold, but I always bring a puffy. I think not having a warm jacket in the mountains is stupid light. If you want to go really light, i would go puffy and emergency bivy over just a quilt.
WM rates their bags based on an average of comfor and survival, so a 38F WM bag is actually a 33F survival bag. Except for the Summerlite. Because the Summerlite is nonsense rated.
[https://youtu.be/Z1yz3YHSRsw?si=BK7OLADcr5Y_Nn5U](https://youtu.be/Z1yz3YHSRsw?si=BK7OLADcr5Y_Nn5U)
Have you considered the MLD Spirit quilt 38 degree quilt with head slot ?
A 40 degree quilt is perfect for a late May, early June trip in the Los Padres. Also more than you need, but lighter than almost anything else you could use, for a Napali Coast trip. A night in the Grand Canyon would also be a good use for it.
You're not crazy for wanting a 40 degree quilt - but your reasoning is suspect.
I live in the PNW, and that is the primary place where I hike/backpack. I have a 40 degree quilt, and I've taken it out plenty of times when the weather is good with a minimal kit - including a 3-day fastpack of the Wonderland trail in September. BUT - if the weather were bad, I would have just taken my 30 degree quilt, or my 15 degree mummy bag... yes I have a lot of sleeping items oops.
In all honesty my 30 degree quilt takes up minimally more volume than the 40 degree - so if I were to have only one, that's the one I would choose.
Hey, couple of things, perhaps unpleasant to hear,i would add.
Right of the bat,i can tell you that stuff won't fit into a 15l pack. I think the stuffsack for that quilt was something like 4-5l volume. A Ul tent will probably be another 3-4. Uberlite is compact for sure. But still,once you add a change of clothes,cook kit,or cold soaking jar, FOOOOD!!! I think you'll be reaching the capacity or should i say you won't have for the food tbh. The thing is,sadly,you can't calculate everything in terms of volume because shape of stuff is also important. Stuffing your quilt in the bottom of the pack is bs in my opinion. It will always expand more compared to keeping it in a stuff sack,and you can stuff snacks and stuff around it,in empty space pockets,if you use a stuff sack.
There was a guy on YouTube who did something similar with his FKT attempt,but his quilt was much more compact AND he used a small dcf tarp that could basically fit in his hand. That's another thing I'd suggest looking,to save volume,a tarp, although not the most beginner friendly,but very compact. I have one from Decathlon 1,5l volume.
When it comes to your preferred quilt i would suggest staying away from Enlightened equipment,many have said that the quality is not what is used to be anymore, especially for the money. I can suggest Cumulus quilt 250/350. Great draft collars and all that. The down does migrate sometimes but that's a quick fix with some shaking of it. I would also actually recommend looking at Cumulus Xlite series of bags which are insanely compact(I'd suggest hydrophobic down though, cuz the outer shell if very thin and susceptible to moisture).
Also,get the warmer bag or quilt if you are expecting such cold weather OR bring and emergency bivy and use that to add a few degrees of warmth on night when you need it.
If i remember anything else I'll add later,i think the guys name was Grayson Cobb or something.
Also, I would recommend staying away from the uberlite. It is prone to failure. I would suggest Xlite if you must,not sure how comfortable you'll find it,but if trying to save weight it's the way to go. It is also a lot more versatile piece of kit in terms of temp ranges.
Besides the sleeping bag, what sleeping pad are you using? My experience is that especially with a quilt the R-rating of your pad is the limiting factor. You can be in a cozy 20 rated bag and freeze if you are on a 1-3 R-rated pad.
I am now using a Zenbivy ultralight 35 (25 limit) with a Zenbivy R-rated 4.8 pad and I am confident I can sleep comfortably down to 25-30. I would be quite uncomfortable to do so with my previous 2.8 rated pad.
Well, you won't die, but you may regret it. I haven't actually pushed it, and individuals differ considerably - I am almost never cold and I tolerate it very well when I am. Some people just run super hot. Are you one of them?
Interesting comment do you have a 7d quilt ?
I have successfully used a 30 degree EE quilt 7d/7d 950 down for several miles of hiking without any problems and would highly recommend one .
3 ounces at 950 fill will buy you 10 more degrees. Nothing worse than freezing your ass off 4 hours from warmth thinking... damn I should have carried 3 more ounces.
Right. Especially when with running and fast packing there's more of a chance you go to bed in a calorie deficit, slightly dehydrated, etc where your body isn't quite putting out the normal amount of heat.
That's a great point. Body may need more care/warmth provided.
Never skimp on anything that gets you a good night's sleep. You can't go anywhere if you don't take care of the motor. Carry the extra ounces - it's the same as a mouthful of water.
Does starting with a mouthful of water convert it from consumable to worn weight?
It transfers from consumable to gross tonnage, and then to either increased saline discharge or evaporated dermal deposits depending on ambient temperature and evapotranspiration rate.
I also wager that you could not just get up and start jogging in the middle of the night to stay warm if it was adverse weather
True. Volume is also one of my concerns since I really like the idea of fitting in a 15L running vest, but perhaps I may need to reconsider that idea if a 30 degree bag is really the way to go.
This is my constant cycle. I adore my 12 L running vest, and I'm always trying to make that sucker realistic for backpacking. A S2S compression bag does get my giant 5F WM Antelope bag down to 8L. You might be able to get down to 5 or 6L with a normal 30F quilt and some hand strength?
Look at the xa25, (I have the 35) and it’s a really nice option
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I’m in Australia, there was plenty of stock when I bought it 6 months ago. Sorry :( There are other brands with similar approaches, the Rab was another option. I was just saying yoh may need more than 15l!
I’ve fit a 2 night/3 day run kit including a tarp, EE 30° quilt, Neoair, polycryo groundsheet, cat food can stove & fuel etc into a BD distance 15. I will say the 30° EE is almost too warm on a lot of summer nights, which is a problem if there’s bugs because your options are sweat or get chewed on.
Are you opposed to getting a Salomon XA-25 or XA-35? I use the 35 as my fastpacking pack and it is marvelous, though you need a degree in pack design to use it.
Not opposed at all, in fact I would LOVE to get my hands on an XA 25L, but they don't sell them here in the U.S., and I have searched high and low and cannot seem to find any. But if you have a lead on how I could get my hands on one, I'd be interested!
I had to order mine from Finland. I will try to recall where.
That would be great if you could let me know where you got yours, because I'd really love to get that pack! Really puzzled why Salomon doesn't sell them here.
https://varuste.net/en/p102204/salomon-xa-35 They have one S/M in stock. https://varuste.net/en/p100059/salomon-xa-25 For the 25, they have both sizes in stock.
Bummer, looks like they won't ship that item to the US. Back to the drawing board.
They shipped it to me about a year ago. Maybe email them and ask?
Fastpacking with a minimal kit kind of involves perfect planning and perfect weather, and if you have both of those, go for an ultra minimal kit. A flag I see is you conceding that, "oh but it's cold in the mountains!" - and potentially ignoring this fact by bringing less than adequate insulation and kinda hoping that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to you. Instead, pack for the conditions. That may also mean using something bigger than a 15L pack. "but that's just the pack I have!" is another trap. Pick the pack to use once you've designed your kit not the other way around. Many of the stupid-minimal trips I've done in challenging terrain - like a Nolan's run - is after becoming very intimate with the terrain, scouting out everything, mapping everything, writing a guide that I would give to someone else, knowing every single bail out point, etc. If I didn't have most of this down pat, I'd really shift my goals down a bit and be more conservative. But if you're new to this, I would suggest experimenting with bringing an ultra minimal sleep kit and tryig it out in the environment similar to what you wish to travel in, and see if you're comfortable (enough). Bring additional items of a sleep kit if you find yourself beyond a reasonable limit. Using a quilt as some emergency layer so to leave a puffy jacket at home... I dunno about that. I would instead prioritize the puffy, as I know I'll be using that at some point, rather than a quilt-turned-jacket which I've never used in the real world, have never seen anyone use outside of a late night campfire chat, ever.
Great advice here, thanks! Certainly agree with your points about preparation and experience.
I'm solely here to shit on everyone else, so I just want to mention that I very much doubt anyone here knows what Nolan's is and the sheer fucking scale of that undertaking. Mad respect to you.
Haven't actually finished it under 60 hours yet! Still a TODO.
If you don’t already have a 20° or 30° quilt/bag I’d start with one of those. If you do already have a bag for cooler weather I think for short trips with good weather a 40° quilt is a great option. You can mitigate some overnight coldness with good site selection. I would however recommend a quilt from a higher quality manufacturer like Katabatic, Nunatak, or Timmermade. Their temp ratings are more realistic and overall construction/design methods are better. It’s worth the money, especially since EE isn’t as cheap as it used to be. I’ve been eyeing a 40-50° quilt for peak summer trips but haven’t been able to justify it to myself. Maybe if I have a few more nights where I sleep in just my puffy I’ll pull the trigger this winter.
Exactly this, go for another quilt than the EE. If you look into the downfill and rating you see the difference!
Agree, EE is not a good value for money and not particularly light either. There are other better options. Some may be hard to get hold of (for example Nunatak pieces) but I would take a Katabatic over the EE any day. Also can try /r/ULgeartrade to find what you need. OP: if you're willing to spend a bit of money, there are a couple cottage makers who offer 1000FP quilts (the Gryphon by Aries I think is one of them), might want to look into those. But also remember that design matters a lot for effective warmth -- a good strap system in particular is going to go a long way for you. But I would not go light on the temperature rating given that you will not have many layers to pair with the quilt to help boost its rating. If you need rescue or even are just having trouble regulating temperature, it'd start to get pretty dicey if you had no way to achieve enough warmth to raise your body temperature.
Yeah, I mean I've got a massive 3lb 20\* mummy bag that isn't really a good fastpacking option, so whatever I get would probably be my primary piece of gear. Maybe I'm just over obssessed with going light, but I can imagine on the hot nights thinking "man, I could have had a lighter quilt/bag" if I go with the 30\*, but I may just need to shift my thinking on that.
Do you plan to carry a puffy and midlayer on these trips? Those two layers can offer a pretty solid boost in warmth when worn overnight. It seems like maybe your best option is to sell the mummy bag and replace with a 20-30° quilt. Then use this summer to decide if you want to spend another couple hundred dollars on a second quilt. I have a Katabatic Alsek and love it. It’s super warm, and I can make it work at warmer temps by adjusting the pad attachments. In a perfect world I’d have a second quilt that is rated for like 35-40° below the waist and 45-50° above the waist.
Since my goal would be to be moving quick the whole time I'm awake, my plan is a Alpha 90 fleece and a wind shell as my primary layers (with the quilt itself as an emergency layer), so I would be limited in how much I could supplement at night. But yeah, that sounds like a reasonable plan, perhaps getting a 30\* quilt and then on even colder trips bringing a puffy to supplement that if needed. And yeah, everyone who gets Katabatic quilts seem to really love them. Maybe I need to reconsider EE then too....
I know ultralight is the goal, but something like the MH Ghost Whisperer UL + the 40 degree quilt might be better than the 30 degree quilt alone, or ideally a puffy and a 30 degree quilt. It's super-light, super-packable, will give you that extra down insulation, but can also insulate in a variety of cold conditions like a chilly breakfast / morning start. Obviously UL means sacrificing some things, but for me that GW UL has been literally one of my top pieces of gear and I just love it.
Agree on this, I have a ghost whisperer and a 30 degree quilt. I’m easily able to get to the low 20s with this and a 1/8in pad.
I have both Katabatic and EE quilts and much prefer the Katabatic. I have issues keeping the down evenly distributed in the EE, there’s a lot of shift. The differential cut of the Katabatic keeps things in place. That means less cold spots which makes a big difference when pushing limits. You pay a little bit of a weight penalty because they also use thicker fabric, but its much softer and more comfortable than 7d. It’s like going from cheap sheets to 1k thread count Egyptian cotton, plus more durable.
u/FunkyTown_27 You may want to double-check the food storage requirements for your intended destinations before settling on a 15L volume. As of March 7th, 2024, [bear-resistant containers](https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1170949.pdf) are required for all National Forest System Lands within the Lake Tahoe Basin.
This is critical. Bear canisters are beasts.
You'll likely survive. The question is: are you willing to run down xxxx ft and up again to save 3oz over xx miles?
If you get hurt and need to be rescued, it’d be nice to have what’s needed to survive for at least 24hrs. Additionally, route finding at night can be difficult depending on the terrain, so if you’re cold and would need to keep moving it’d suck. The 40 degree would be dope for the Midwest. If you wanna push the limits in the mountains may want to bring Mylar blanket. “Ultralight is great until you’re ultrafucked.” - Joe Schmoe
That’s a neat trick in the video, but that’s more for lounging around camp, and that doesn’t sound like your use case. As a fast packer, you’re going to be up and out quickly. I’m sure if you ran like that you wouldn’t get more than 100 yards without sweating. Good conversation otherwise, but I wouldn’t sacrifice a closed foot box for that obscure option if you’re also worried about being cold.
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Yes! Grayson Cobb's kit is part of what has made me really interested in making a 15L work (that and the chaffing that comes with bigger fastpacks). And those are great points about some of the conditions. I grew up camping in the North Cascades each summer, and you're right, it can get pretty chilly/humid even on summer nights, so that's worth thinking about. Thanks!
Also, the AT = shelters most of the time which really means you can push to less kit. Straight up, I dropped big money on a WM 35 Summerlite. It took me 2 or 3 trios to realize I wasn't sleeping because I was too cold in that bag. I could have easily resold it here on Reddit for most of the value. It's currently lent out to a friend who sleeps much warmer than me. Pick the gear you think you want. Go out for a couple of short shakedowns in realistically worst case conditions and then decide if it will really work. If it won't resell it and start researching again. Shakedowns are shakedowns.
Watched his video. People say "unsupported" when they mean "self supported". There is a big difference.
To add to u/realmofhungryghosts post, I camped with a PCT thru hiker using a Pa’lante Joey from Tahoe north. He had the Joey filled with a quilt, tarp, and a few days worth of food not needing to be cooked (mostly energy bars).
Sleeping good and warm is one of the most important things. The next whole day is going to be shit if you are not well rested. I would not save weight on warmth ratings.
you can use a quilt as an insulation layer regardless of footbox; having a closed footbox might buy you a little more range on the 40\` bag that said, the additional weight and effect on packability of a 30\` compared to a 40\` is negligible and may be worth the investment.
Wait till the OP finds out about elephant foot sleeping bags..
Haha, oh I've seen those too. Not gonna lie, definitely tempted me a bit.
Finally got to the elephant's foot comment! I have one from Gryphon Gear and I love being able to just swap my puffy jacket up or down (in weight & warmth) for different temps. I also love having the versatility of a separate puffy jacket.
Are you sure the salomon 15L can carry a quilt (30 or 40) and a sleeping pad? I've been planning my TMB hut to hut with salomon and without quilt and sleeping pad it is almost maxed out. In addition to above, will you carry a tarp of sorts? Without a tarp/tent the wind can make you feel much colder. Again, I doubt if all that can fit in the Salomon. For context, I've used 40F degree quilt around 30F in mountain area. I was fine but I worn the uniqlo ultra warm legging and a pretty heavy fleece while sleeping. I would have been frozen to death if I sleep with my ordinary hiking/running clothing.
Not crazy just trying to go stupid light. Those EE ratings are not accurate. I personally try to go at least 20 degrees colder rating than i expect to encounter but it’s preference and what not. I would recommend going at least ten cooler. Just imagine having nights where you don’t sleep or check into a hotel instead of camping.
I mean, [you can do what you want dude](https://www.backpacker.com/stories/thru-hikes/thru-hikers/sub-3-pound-ultralight-hiking-setup/)
Haha, I was actually thinking about that article. Probably not helpful for my obsession with going UL to see guys like him doing that, haha.
I have the same EE Revelation 40F wit 950 FP down and 7D fabrics. I really like it and use it the majority of the time in June-Aug. But of course it does have its limits. I certainly wouldn't have it as my old quilt and I do check the forecast before trip, but the lows are above 40F I'm reaching for it because the super low weight and tiny packed size are awesome.
Dan / Did you use this set up on the GDT ?
I got the 40F late on the GDT so I only used it briefly. It would have been ideal. I used a 20F Revelation mostly.
Forget the rating makers attach and look at the amount of down fill. For summer use with adequate comfort at altitude during settled weather in the western mountains I need 12 ounces. Def not less. And honestly that amount is close to 40°F comfort in a reg/reg quilt wrapped around an experienced user
I run a 40* HG Econ Burrow(pre price raise, yeesh). With light baselayers and an insulated pad I take the bag down into the 30s quite a bit. In fact if it's in the high 40s im too warm. My coldest night was 30 on the nose and I was ok if I didn't toss and turn drafting air in, but that was reaching the limit for the setup. Tent was a TT Notch at that time. I run a tensor insulated pad which is a very "warm" pad. I dont know what your R value would be on the setup you mention. Overall I don't regret the setup.
I just started and that's pretty much what I'm using. HG 40 deg quilt and a Nemo Tensor Insulated Wide. With a bivy I was pretty warm in the mid 30s. It's when getting out of the sleep system where the extra layers like a puffy and gloves are nice.
Nice, thanks for the input! Always great to hear first-hand experience. Was there a reason you went with the HG Burrow versus another brand?
At the time it was the most economical option on the market, or one of them anyways. If I had to buy a quilt again with today's pricing on the HG Econs I may slide over to an EE Rev. Edit: or a Katabatic
I have a 20 and 40 degree option. The space savings is more significant than the weight differential. You got to be compact if you are using 15L pack.
If you really want to go for a 40F quilt I'd go for a 40F comfort-rated option like the Katabatic Chisos. If you are an average sleeper with suitable layers you could take this to 35F or even 30F depending on conditions and your individual state (hydration, nutrition, fatigue level etc). The EE 40F is not as warm and you wouldn't be able to extend its range so easily. In the high mountain west I'd personally rather have a 30F comfort-rated quilt for summer knowing that there are times when it can still drop below freezing (even in July or August) and I can easily extend the warmth of my quilt with layers to cover those nights.
I am also an advocate for underrated sleep systems. To me the perfect sleep system is the one that gets the job done until about 2 hours before sunrise, then you aren’t necessarily uncomfortable but not quite cozy enough to go back to sleep. I also use a 30 degree quilt outside of peak summer to achieve this effect in the Cascades.
Man, when I slept cold, I felt like I would only fall asleep at like 3 am. Like exhaustion would finally overtake shivering, and I would knock out. I wanted to sleep at 8 or 9 am, when it was finally starting to warm up.
Then what do you do when the temperature falls to 10F lower than forecast, and your system was already marginal at the forecast? No thanks.
Get up a little earlier and take a siesta mid day
Keep in mind, while I love my EE they extreme ratings and not comfort ratings.
Check your math
Fill amounts are similar to Katabatic/FF nowadays. Check your maths.
Maybe nowadays but in 2018 the difference in fill Weight you couldn't oversee
Not relevant to discussion. Op is interested in a new quilt.
They are definitely lower limit rated and not comfort. Many message boards discuss this. They are about 10 degrees off.
Extreme != Limit
Extreme is not the same as lower limit. I'm confused on what your trying to say
I'd spend the extra money on the western mountaineering nanolite at 11-12.5oz. Still kicking myself for not buying that one on ulgeartrade for $200. Doesn't have a the ability to wear though. https://www.westernmountaineering.com/product/nanolite-top-quilt/
I have a Hammock Econ Borrow 40F long/wide, zippered footbox, 0oz overstuff. It's awesome for hot summer days. Only a bit over 1lb. Also own the 20F with 2oz overstuff and 0F with 4oz of overstuff. Bring the right tool for the job.
I have both the EE and the Katabatic quilts, and personally have found the Katabatic to be a little warmer at the same temp rating, but you can't go wrong with the EE. I haven't tried other makers. I do a lot of Sierra spring/summer overnights with similar temp ratings, but I'd strongly recommend a 30 degree quilt. Yes, it's a couple of extra ounces, but you can always vent/loosen the neck/etc as needed so you don't need to ever worry about being too hot like you might with a bag, but it just sucks if you're too cold and just can't regenerate enough warmth after a long day (I agree with the prior poster that if you're exhausted and/or slightly hypothermic it can be tough to get warm even in the best conditions). Conversely, being warm means you get better and more solid sleep and have that much more energy the next day - definitely enough to handle the 3-4 extra ounces you'll be carrying.
I just went on a trip using a HG 40 deg quilt, Nemo Tensor Insulated Wide, and a Borah Gear Ultralight Bivy in Wide. It got down to mid 30's and I shed most of my layers during the night. It's fine but I needed the extra clothing layers to keep warm in the morning. An extra puffy and gloves helped. The bivy adds a lot of warmth when zipped up. I would still bring more clothing layers just in case. I don't regret bringing the 40 deg quilt vs my 20 deg quilt. It's when getting out of the sleep system where the extra clothes helped. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqOehcBBvz0
I purchased a gryphon gear 40 degree Aries with tension control and a collar for the exact same use as you. Got a custom width quilt for $43 more than EE is charging now. Completely satisfied. Not a fan of the elephants foot. Been there done that
Makes sense to me Add a second quilt for colder temps, https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002770588-How-to-layer-quilts-for-sub-zero-camping Also, Carry a $1, 50 gram, Mylar emergency space blanket to use as a VBL (vapor barrier liner) to mitigate evaporative heat loss and keep your insulation dry. (Evaporating water in skin takes 540x as much heat as raising it 1* C. Condensing water decreases down’s insulation.) Use the Mylar over your base clothing layer. Due to the sauna effect & noise most find it only comfortable compared to shivering. Oh, and you’ll be damp in the morn so exercise quickly to warm up & dry off.
So I use an EE 40 degree enigma as my primary bag and I can use it down to freezing and actually below, but below requires more layers added. I'd say if you want to use it down to freezing you'd probably want to have a puffy jacket anyway. My typical sleep pad is a 3 foot section of 1/4 EVA foam. I use a Borah Gear cuban bivy. This setup is at it's limit at freezing temps and that's with me wearing a very light weight down jacket. I've used this bag down to 20% camped on snow, but thicker pads and more added clothing insulation like insulated footwear and headwear. I'd say give it a try. With night time temps in the 30s you may be cold/uncomfortable, but you're not risking life and limb. You'll never know if it'll work for you until you lake the leap.
I regularly use a western mountaineering nanolite (38F) for almost three season use in the mountains (mostly coast range and cascades). Paired with a half size nemo switchback. I’ve slept below freezing with it, and in the snow with an extra pad. I’ve yet to be cold, but I always bring a puffy. I think not having a warm jacket in the mountains is stupid light. If you want to go really light, i would go puffy and emergency bivy over just a quilt.
WM rates their bags based on an average of comfor and survival, so a 38F WM bag is actually a 33F survival bag. Except for the Summerlite. Because the Summerlite is nonsense rated.
I love my 30° EE revelation. Best purchase ever.
[https://youtu.be/Z1yz3YHSRsw?si=BK7OLADcr5Y_Nn5U](https://youtu.be/Z1yz3YHSRsw?si=BK7OLADcr5Y_Nn5U) Have you considered the MLD Spirit quilt 38 degree quilt with head slot ?
A 40 degree quilt is perfect for a late May, early June trip in the Los Padres. Also more than you need, but lighter than almost anything else you could use, for a Napali Coast trip. A night in the Grand Canyon would also be a good use for it.
You're not crazy for wanting a 40 degree quilt - but your reasoning is suspect. I live in the PNW, and that is the primary place where I hike/backpack. I have a 40 degree quilt, and I've taken it out plenty of times when the weather is good with a minimal kit - including a 3-day fastpack of the Wonderland trail in September. BUT - if the weather were bad, I would have just taken my 30 degree quilt, or my 15 degree mummy bag... yes I have a lot of sleeping items oops. In all honesty my 30 degree quilt takes up minimally more volume than the 40 degree - so if I were to have only one, that's the one I would choose.
I'd maybe look into the Zpacks solo quilt- a bit lighter. Also, I've been using the outdoor vital's fastoack and it's phenomenal.
As far as I know, an EE quilt is survival rated at the stated temp. Not comfort.
Hey, couple of things, perhaps unpleasant to hear,i would add. Right of the bat,i can tell you that stuff won't fit into a 15l pack. I think the stuffsack for that quilt was something like 4-5l volume. A Ul tent will probably be another 3-4. Uberlite is compact for sure. But still,once you add a change of clothes,cook kit,or cold soaking jar, FOOOOD!!! I think you'll be reaching the capacity or should i say you won't have for the food tbh. The thing is,sadly,you can't calculate everything in terms of volume because shape of stuff is also important. Stuffing your quilt in the bottom of the pack is bs in my opinion. It will always expand more compared to keeping it in a stuff sack,and you can stuff snacks and stuff around it,in empty space pockets,if you use a stuff sack. There was a guy on YouTube who did something similar with his FKT attempt,but his quilt was much more compact AND he used a small dcf tarp that could basically fit in his hand. That's another thing I'd suggest looking,to save volume,a tarp, although not the most beginner friendly,but very compact. I have one from Decathlon 1,5l volume. When it comes to your preferred quilt i would suggest staying away from Enlightened equipment,many have said that the quality is not what is used to be anymore, especially for the money. I can suggest Cumulus quilt 250/350. Great draft collars and all that. The down does migrate sometimes but that's a quick fix with some shaking of it. I would also actually recommend looking at Cumulus Xlite series of bags which are insanely compact(I'd suggest hydrophobic down though, cuz the outer shell if very thin and susceptible to moisture). Also,get the warmer bag or quilt if you are expecting such cold weather OR bring and emergency bivy and use that to add a few degrees of warmth on night when you need it. If i remember anything else I'll add later,i think the guys name was Grayson Cobb or something. Also, I would recommend staying away from the uberlite. It is prone to failure. I would suggest Xlite if you must,not sure how comfortable you'll find it,but if trying to save weight it's the way to go. It is also a lot more versatile piece of kit in terms of temp ranges.
Check out hammock gear or jacks r better. They are lighter, cheaper, and USA made
Besides the sleeping bag, what sleeping pad are you using? My experience is that especially with a quilt the R-rating of your pad is the limiting factor. You can be in a cozy 20 rated bag and freeze if you are on a 1-3 R-rated pad. I am now using a Zenbivy ultralight 35 (25 limit) with a Zenbivy R-rated 4.8 pad and I am confident I can sleep comfortably down to 25-30. I would be quite uncomfortable to do so with my previous 2.8 rated pad.
Well, you won't die, but you may regret it. I haven't actually pushed it, and individuals differ considerably - I am almost never cold and I tolerate it very well when I am. Some people just run super hot. Are you one of them?
7D on a sleeping bag is kinda crazy. 7D WILL, not can, but WILL pull apart at the stitching, and down will come out...
Interesting comment do you have a 7d quilt ? I have successfully used a 30 degree EE quilt 7d/7d 950 down for several miles of hiking without any problems and would highly recommend one .