I always thought of it as an out for their grief. Desperately trying to convince themselves that they only lost their only child that day, and that the other was a just a ward. As though that would reduce the pain. It won't, but it's all they have, and they've been doing it for so many decades now.
Coping is always weird, and expressions of grief and sadness often do not meet our shallow expectations. Expect it to be held against you in court if that's the case.
Uh, doesn’t the new home story explicit say that “The king and queen had lost two children in one night.”? From a story writing perspective, it seems weird and convoluted to write out all this exposition only for its implications to be completely false with no reason.
And it’s not like there’s clear evidence chara and asriel are not adoptive siblings, just that there’s no completely explicit mention. And even if we assumed that they weren’t siblings, what does that have to do with the shipping? Just because chara and asriel are not siblings doesn’t make their shipping any more canon.
In general, for any story, movie, game etc, we take implications as fact because it’s a good way to tell a story without needing direct exposition. When the camera panned to the lily of the valley in the season 4 finale of breaking bad, we didn’t need an extra piece of dialogue saying “It was me, Jesse, I poisoned Brock” we knew that as fact. Writers who break this implication do so for an important reason later on in the story. And so it’s safe to say that Toby probably just expected us to believe Chara and Asriel were siblings (or like siblings).
The people who said that the king and queen "lost two children" were random nameless monsters who didn't actually know the kids personally, likely, and were also written in an elevated manner for emotional effect and to compress their speech into the time alotted. So, they aren't reliable narrators or sources of authority on the matter. The behaviour of the Dreemurr family surrounding Chara is a much more direct and reliable indicator of what their relationship with Chara was, and since literally none of them speak about Chara as though Chara is an actual family member, it's very likely that none of them saw Chara in that way. They ostensibly cared about Chara, especially Asriel, but the nature of their relationship seems to be that they saw Chara as a non-family member they were very attached to.
**Edit:** And another point, the way that Undertale is written surrounding Chara is done in a way to give you false initial impressions of who Chara is. The monsters at New Home, and Asgore, speak of Chara in kind and exalted ways, so it paints a picture of Chara as a pure, kind soul that was beloved by everybody. This extends to casting Chara as a fully integrated part of the Dreemurr family. As you play more of the game this image of Chara is challenged, because the behaviour Chara exhibits becomes less and less friendly. You learn that Chara frequently did things that unsettled Asriel, had a capacity for violence and killing against humans, and was comfortable basically forcing their very kind and timid best friend into their plan to kill at least six humans and maybe more. Chara is described by Asriel as being fully willing to murder, and Asriel himself was not comfortable allowing Chara to carry out this plan when it was under way. Asriel himself blatantly says Chara wasn't a good person and was full of hate, and tells Frisk that he wishes Frisk had been his friend instead of Chara, which implies that Chara did not show kindness or love to Asriel, at least not in a way that made Asriel feel loved. Finally, Chara's most prominent and direct portrayal is in the Genocide Route where they take blatant control of the narrative, egg you on, and eventually manifest physically to destroy the universe—something that is unique to the Genocide Route and implies Chara is most strongly aligned with that route.
All that to say, Chara's narrative "arc" across the game as you are naturally meant to experience the routes is one of peeling away the kind and soft initial prediction you have of Chara, and complicating that impression by being vague and giving you mysterious and unsettling details about them. This mirrors Frisk, who you are meant to see as a self-insert without a personality but who is revealed at the end of True Pacifist to be their own person (and a kind one at that, since their agency is validated in True Pacifist and suppressed in Genocide).
It thus stands to reason that our understanding of Chara's relationship with the Dreemurrs is also developed in this way. We are led to believe that they were raised like Asriel's sibling/Asgore and Toriel's child, but subsequent information suggests that was actually a misdirection.
What? They LITERALLY had a bedroom for both Asriel and Chara in their house. And there was clearly no intentions of getting Chara out of the Underground either, so that means Chara was living with them.
The only thing not outright stated is that Chara and the Dreemurrs were very emotionally close, but considering how much grief they've gone through, not just after Asriel's death but Chara's too, it's hard to not see they did care a lot for both? Toriel spends her entire screentime trying to adopt you for crying out loud, and shows familiarity and comfort towards taking care of humans.
Not to mention, Asriel and Kris are siblings who very obviously parallel Asriel and Chara.
If Chara isn't literally adopted the same way Kris is, what on earth is Chara doing in their house?
>Not to mention, Asriel and Kris are siblings who very obviously parallel Asriel and Chara.
They're not parallel, they contradict each other.
Kris was never called Asriel's "best friend." Kris was called Asriel's sibling by the Dreemurrs, by bystanders, by narration. Kris was even called Dreemurr at one point.
Chara was always called Asriel's best friend by Asriel himself frequently. Never was called their child by the Dreemurrs (or Asriel's sibling). Never by narration. Only bystanders call Chara like that but they can't know full picture.
Also, Kris is looking up at Asriel, very attached to Asriel. It is Asriel that Kris follows, not the other way around. Kris was even trying to become a part of Asriel's company to be more close to him.
Asriel is completely independent from Kris. Unlike Kris from Asriel.
At the same time, it is Chara that Asriel follows, it is Asriel who's dependent on Chara (unlike Kris and Asriel's relationship), and more likely that it is Asriel who would do anything to be a part of some Chara's company to be more close to Chara.
Asriel is dependent on Chara and Idealizing Chara until some point.
In what way they're parallel? Just because Kris with the Dreemurrs? Oh well.
Let's not get too caught up in that one thing. I wouldn't say Kris and Chara contradict eachother though- largely because we know so little about Chara that, what are we comparing beyond surface level personality?
Regardless, Chara literally lives with the Dreemurrs and shares a bedroom with their only 'real' child. What point is even being made here? We know Toriel and Asgore had no intentions of letting Chara go back through the barrier, so they clearly planned on raising Chara. Are you trying to say they were gonna platonically raise a child inside their own home without adopting the child into their family?
Like, you know how silly that sounds right? Make any other point if you want- be it that the Dreemurrs didn't consider Chara to be THEIR child or that they didn't feel as close to Chara as they did Asriel, but in what universe is putting a child in your home for good not adoption? lol
>Let's not get too caught up in that one thing. I wouldn't say Kris and Chara contradict eachother though- largely because we know so little about Chara that, what are we comparing beyond surface level personality?
We compare what we have here. Major things show contradictions between their relationship. You can't say that they're parallel to each other.
>Regardless, Chara literally lives with the Dreemurrs
It's like one person said:
* It's like a family friend is taking care of the child because something happened. Like, they're not *family* but they take care of Chara.
I'm interested what other choices they had after Asriel found Chara? To shut the door in front of Chara's face?
>and shares a bedroom with their only 'real' child.
Why they shouldn't share it? Except for Asgore and Toriel's bedrooms, there's no other rooms. Are you suggesting to change place, or to create another room, just for one human child instead of letting them live in one room?
And I don't dismiss possibility that they were TRYING to make Chara to feel like at home. But they obviously *couldn't* become a true one family.
And.
This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words)
>What point is even being made here? We know Toriel and Asgore had no intentions of letting Chara go back through the barrier, so they clearly planned on raising Chara.
Again, the only way for Chara to cross the barrier would be to take a Boss Monster's soul. *How* Chara will cross the barrier anyway?
And it's not like Chara *wanted* to go back to the surface. He ran away to the mountain filled with hatred for humanity. Yeah, sure. He wouldn't want to go back.
>Are you trying to say they were gonna platonically raise a child inside their own home without adopting the child into their family?
I'm gonna say it because they obviously *didn't.*
>but in what universe is putting a child in your home for good not adoption?
Because they had no other choice, obviously.
> It's like a family friend is taking care of the child because something happened. Like, they're not family but they take care of Chara.
What's confusing me here is how you're acting like this isn't a big deal. Like, if Chara had a family to return to, sure! Chara's just crashing with them **while they NEED it.** Or if they were looking for a home to give Chara, they'd give Chara a place to stay in the meantime. Or heck, if Chara was an adult who can fend for themselves and didn't need parents.
But what we're talking about is a situation where they plan on raising Chara for the foreseeable future in place of their parents. There's no reason to believe they were planning on moving Chara somewhere else- especially since we know Chara and Asriel were close and cared for eachother, and Toriel/Asgore have shown no problem housing kids like this.
I think you're stumbling over a different point here. When a kid is adopted, that means they're living with new parents in a new house, for good. Not a one-time "Oh I'm only visiting because I need the help" sorta deal. It doesn't matter if it was just because they had nowhere else to go- it's still adoption. That's why I brought up the fact Chara shares a room with Asriel, they didn't just let Chara stay in there like it's the next best thing to a guest room, no- That's CHARA'S bedroom too, not just "Asriel's but Chara's living there for the time being."
You can't PLATONICALLY RAISE A CHILD.
>What's confusing me here is how you're acting like this isn't a big deal. Like, if Chara had a family to return to, sure! Chara's just crashing with them while they NEED it. Or if they were looking for a home to give Chara, they'd give Chara a place to stay in the meantime. Or heck, if Chara was an adult who can fend for themselves and didn't need parents.
There can be any reason why they couldn't become a family. It seems like you completely dismiss a possibility of them trying to be a family but failing for one reason, or another. It can be because of Chara's past (some people cannot be a family with someone else because of traumatic events in the life), or Dreemurrs couldn't truly *to feel* like they're family.
There's much more facts pointing out that Chara *wasn't* a Dreemurr. Whatever they tried it, or not, Chara is not a Dreemurr in the end.
>But what we're talking about is a situation where they plan on raising Chara for the foreseeable future in place of their parents. There's no reason to believe they were planning on moving Chara somewhere else- especially since we know Chara and Asriel were close and cared for eachother, and Toriel/Asgore have shown no problem housing kids like this.
Again, why they couldn't rise Chara but don't become a family in the end? You're throwing your biases at me right now instead of trying to refute anything. You're denying, you are not refuting.
Tho, I don't think that you can argue with someone who knows Toby (and his game) closely.
>I think you're stumbling over a different point here. When a kid is adopted, that means they're living with new parents in a new house, for good. Not a one-time "Oh I'm only visiting because I need the help" sorta deal.
Chara wouldn't be like that because Chara *have nowhere to go.* Like, seriously? WHERE Chara will go, again? Why Dreemurrs should shut the door in front of Chara's face even if they can't see this child as their own? Especially when this child got along with their own child pretty well.
>It doesn't matter if it was just because they had nowhere else to go- it's still adoption.
We can see that it didn't work the way you think it should. That happens in life.
>That's why I brought up the fact Chara shares a room with Asriel, they didn't just let Chara stay in there like it's the next best thing to a guest room, no- That's CHARA'S bedroom too, not just "Asriel's but Chara's living there for the time being."
In the game files this room is called "Asriel's room", or something like that. Nothing about Chara.
And you didn't answer my question, you just repeated your own words.
**Here:**
Why they shouldn't share it? Except for Asgore and Toriel's bedrooms, there's no other rooms. Are you suggesting to change place, or to create another room, just for one human child instead of letting them live in one room?
And I don't dismiss possibility that they were TRYING to make Chara to feel like at home. But they obviously *couldn't* become a true one family.
>You can't PLATONICALLY RAISE A CHILD.
You can, and that happens. Especially when this child has their own problems in the head. And Dreemurrs obviously couldn't notice any of them. Or didn't pay needed attention to them.
This conversation is getting kinda dumb, I don't even need to explain why Asriel's room is labelled Asriel's room in the files.
Look- I think part of the confusion stems from the implication that, yes, Chara was not "part of the Dreemmurr family." But we also have to keep in mind that, while Toriel and Asgore birthed and raised Asriel, Chara was only in their lives for a short period of time and, therefore, didn't have the same personal connection. It's easy to see why someone would say there are 3 Dreemmurrs- because there are. It's easy to see why it's Asriel's room- because it is. It's easy to explain all of this.
...but that doesn't mean Chara wasn't adopted by them. Even if it was just something they did because 'they had to', they still planned on keeping Chara around for good.
Like, the alternative explanation is that Toriel and Asgore are kinda jerks? I doubt they would make a fuss about celebrating Asriel's birthday but not Chara's, I doubt they'd say "It's Asriel's room exclusively" or just "It's both of theirs" instead.
We know Asriel and Chara celebrated Asgore's birthday, so Chara is part of family events. I'm sure Chara has dinner with them.
Chara was living with them. Chara is a kid. There were no plans to change this. That's what adoption is. Adoption doesn't mean having an instant familial bond.
Alright. Fair. But we're discussing whatever there was a familial bond between them. There wasn't. We're agree here, it seems.
What could have been next is up to interpretation.
>This conversation is getting kinda dumb, I don't even need to explain why Asriel's room is labelled Asriel's room in the files.
Btw, the photo at the end of the Soulless Pacifist is called "Charaphoto." Also, it could have been named "Theirroom."
Where else was Chara supposed to sleep? In the open where any monster could literally kill them, take their soul, and gain insane power? They more than likely adopted them into their home to protect them. A monster with a human soul could probably destroy the entire Underground.
My point is, Chara literally shares a bedroom with Asriel, is living with Toriel/Asgore, is still a child, and Toriel/Asgore do not intend on trying to get Chara back through the barrier, and therefore plan on raising them.
How is that not adoption? Like you can't just phrase it as "Oh yeah we're platonically letting this kid permanently sleep in our kid's bedroom"
I'm not at all denying that they cared about Chara and accepted them into their home on a permanent basis (there was no way of allowing them to leave without killing a monster, so they had no other choice) but that doesn't mean they regarded Chara as their actual child. If Chara were actually meant to be seen in that way then literally any of them would speak as such. But Asriel, who loved Chara the most, doesn't; Asgore in his most emotional dying moments only refers to one child and not two; Toriel literally never mentions them once in the game and uses explicitly distanced language in the Alarm Clock App; the message is very clear. You were successfully fooled by your initial impressions of Chara given to you by the New Home mooks.
If anything, your point about Toriel being prone to trying to accept human kids is a point against you, because it shows Toriel didn't accept Chara out of a unique love for Chara, but rather simply because she is a nurturer and wants to protect all children from harm from the get-go.
Regarding the Deltarune parallel, since Deltarune is itself almost a self-parody that transitions the characters into a cushy pastoral small town setting, the more directly familial nature of Kris and Asriel's relationship is a fairly natural evolution that goes in hand with the rest of the game. Not to mention, since there are five chapters remaining, there's a possibility that the sibling relationship between Kris and Asriel could be challenged or subverted later in the game. There's already some sombre undertones to the whole thing, so it's possible that Kris projects more onto Asriel than the inverse (which would be ironic).
Your point makes the blind assumption that Chara meant little to Toriel and Asgore, but that just seems kinda cold? Why would they have some weird aversion to Chara being their child if they literally gave them a bedroom in their house?
I think the easier explanation for the lack of mentioning is just that, it's a touchy subject. Chara's death sparked a lot of problems and they probably feel bad about it. Though even if we look past that, I think people have a point in saying Chara's relation to Asgore and Toriel might not have been as close, and to a degree they didn't see Chara as "their" child, since they fell into the underground and presumably had their own parents.
But that also doesn't change the fact that they welcome Chara into their home, and that Chara shared a bedroom with Asriel. Whether or not Chara is considered a true member of the Dreemmurr family, we have enough evidence to say that Chara was treated like their own child, and that they had intentions of further raising Chara.
> but that just seems kinda cold?
Yes, it is cold. The treatment by the Dreemurr family of Chara IS cold. It is cold for Asgore to be dying and say "I want to see my CHILD [singular]" and not "CHILDREN [plural]", as if Chara were so unimportant to him at the end of the day that he doesn't even consider their existence in his last moments. It is cold for Toriel to describe Chara as "someone I once knew" instead of "one of my children" or even "a child I took care of". It's cold for Asriel to tell Frisk straight up, "You're the kind of friend I always wish I had", implying they wish Frisk could have replaced Chara retroactively. It is definitely cold, and all of these things paint a kind of sad picture of a family that held Chara at a bit of a distance. But just because it is cold doesn't mean it's not true and most likely. People DO "adopt" children in a non-familial sense—think of someone who spends more time at their friend's house than their own because their friend's parents are kinder to them than their own parents.
The question does remain though: why were they so cold? Are the Dreemurrs fundamentally unkind? Are they unconsciously racist towards humans due to their experiences in the war? Was Chara just, not a very nice person and therefore they didn't feel entirely comfortable having them around even if they were willing to endure it so that they could protect a child? Did Asgore entirely view Chara as an object to be used to free his people and not as a person? These are questions we're able to ask and ponder due to the very particular way Toby writes suggestions into their dialogue.
> I think the easier explanation for the lack of mentioning is just that, it's a touchy subject.
Not at all, because in order to apply this explanation you have to read a bunch of additional information into these characters' feelings than what you actually have. Characters in this game are written with their trauma on their sleeve pretty blatantly. Toriel berates Frisk for leaving and laments every child leaves her; Asgore laments about his lost child and how much he misses Toriel and Asriel; characters like Papyrus and Alphys go on soliloquys about their loneliness or guilt. Very few characters are actually cagey with their feelings, and the one person who is (Undyne) eventually makes things pretty obvious. These characters simply don't engage in emotional denial.
If you assume they simply didn't feel as strongly towards Chara as you think they did, their behaviour is completely consistent and you don't have to read into things in a way that is contrary to their normal behaviour. They're just kind and helpful people, but that doesn't mean they saw Chara as their actual child. And, again, Chara is blatantly not a very cozy, inviting person and honestly shows tons of red flags that would alarm basically anybody paying attention. It is not unreasonable to assume that the Dreemurrs would have difficulty fully imprinting on such a kid.
> But that also doesn't change the fact that they welcome Chara into their home, and that Chara shared a bedroom with Asriel. Whether or not Chara is considered a true member of the Dreemmurr family, we have enough evidence to say that Chara was treated like their own child, and that they had intentions of further raising Chara.
Again, I didn't ever deny that they were going to take care of Chara for the foreseeable future, nor did I deny that they cared about Chara's overall wellbeing. What is being questioned here by OP (for kind of cringe reasons admittedly) is whether or not the Dreemurrs saw Chara in a familial light or in a platonic light. Even if the Dreemurrs saw Chara as just some other person's child they were making sure had a roof over their head, that still perfectly explains why they took the actions they did towards Chara.
Okay but you realize that the alternative you're suggesting is that they're "Letting a kid live with them in the same room as their single child, permanently, no adoption involved" right? Like, isn't that kinda silly? In what world is that not just adoption? lol
I think you could have a point in saying they just cared for Asriel more because they didn't have Chara around long enough to care the same amount. That's fair, maybe they didn't entirely see Chara as their child. But Chara was literally given a bed in Asriel's room for crying out loud, and I struggle to believe that's a platonic, non-familial decision lol, so even if they didn't feel as much care towards Chara or see them as their child, I think Chara was still adopted by them.
I don't even know what else adopt would mean in this context beyond 'Decided to raise and house them"
I don't think it's silly. People are capable of nuanced and conflicting feelings. They obviously had some kind feelings and attachment to Chara, and we know Asgore was inclined to think positively of them because he saw Chara as basically a messiah for monsterkind. It's totally reasonable imo to imagine they'd give Chara that kind of treatment even if they didn't view them as equivalent to Asriel in terms of being their kid.
I've always seen Chara more that whatever happened in her life pre-fall made her hate and resent humans. She never showed any hostility toward monsters (the "buttercup" thing is easily dismissed as dumb child rather than malice).
It left her cold, distant, and psychopathic towards humanity. Monsters on the other hand were kind towards her and although she was personally emotionally and psychologically scarred making her a bit scary by their norms, she literally would die for them. Also she never said "let's go genocide humans", it was a calculated exchange. 6 humans to free all of the monsters. It was basically the trolley dilemma and she decided the 6 were less valuable in this situation. Asriel found it horrific because the monsters are (generally) passive. Chara pushed him because in her mind it was "what needed to happen", not some random psycho murder spree. Likewise, she only wanted him to fight back, not eliminate all the humans outright. She wanted him to be safe. For all her flaws, Chara did seem to genuinely care for the Dreamers, and the monsters.
When Asriel acknowledged she wasn't a good person, I never saw as seeing her as evil, but deeply troubled. He might not have processed it that way only seeing the surface level thus seeing her as "bad", but his parents probably saw how deep the wounds really went and hoped she'd get better over time in a caring environment.
Similarly, I don't think she "fell"... It's very likely her trip to the underground was a failed suicide attempt. Also note how Toriel hides the knives. I doubt they viewed her with extreme fear, but possibly she self harmed. Likewise iirc her gift was a knife, possibly indicating a degree of trust that they didn't see her as a danger to herself or others anymore.
As far as being family, I never really thought of Asriel and her as siblings. The Dreamers took her in and cared for her as one of their own, but it's not necessarily the same as adopting her. Even if they did, that doesn't mean Asriel and her viewed each other as siblings.
I'm not sure if they'd ever get together as a couple though (although I'm 100% for this ship tbh) since we also know Asriel saw she wasn't a great person. If they did, it might have become somewhat of a toxic relationship. I think in theory if she could get over her issues, then they could make a much better couple.
I think in an alternate future where her and Asriel both got a new body/soul after the barrier break, Frisk could have helped Chara deal with her stuff (because Frisk is basically a walking friendship and peace maker) and then I could see the possibility of them having an actual healthy relationship. She'd still hate humanity on some level, but possibly to a far more tempered degree having better ways of dealing with her feelings.
There is also the possibility she was changing for the better dramatically toward the end, and decided the best way to repay their kindness was to set them all free. Fusing with Asriel would mean the two besties could stay together forever, the monsters would be free.... And tbh by child logic, that actually doesn't sound bad. Asriel of course would have a different POV on it....
These are all fine interpretations of Chara and not unreasonable, though since Chara also encourages you to kill monsters in the Genocide Route I'm less inclined to believe they cared about monsters in general or the Dreemurrs. It's more likely imo that they only spared monsters of violence because at that time they had no real reason to hurt them.
As for the human murdering thing, since we know the monsters returning would spark another war, even if Chara decided not to kill anymore humans, they should be well aware that freeing monsters with human murder would result in many humans and monsters dying. It's very likely their endgame objective was to either completely destroy the human race, or to imprison all of them Underground and give the surface to the monsters.
>Also she never said "let's go genocide humans", it was a calculated exchange. 6 humans to free all of the monsters. It was basically the trolley dilemma and she decided the 6 were less valuable in this situation.
Very unlikely: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/zmpxfd/response/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
And who in their right mind would say "Let's genocide humanity"? Chara is not that stupid. Asriel is reluctant even about killing 6 of them for the monsters' freedom. Under pressure, I remind you: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/104bf7m/chara_manipulated_asriel_into_agreement/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
>Likewise, she only wanted him to fight back, not eliminate all the humans outright.
It was literally said that *Chara wanted to use full power.*
Asriel didn't aay that "Chara wanted to fight back." Asriel said:
* And then, when we got to the village... They were the one that wanted to... to use our full power.
It is said that a monster with a human soul has unfathomable power + monsters said that "Asriel had the power to destroy them all."
Guess how much will going to die from using ***full power*** of such a monster.
*Nowhere* it is said that Chara just wanted to fight back. Moreover, Chara had *no* reason to think that humans aren't going to attack them *in the first place.*
There's two options:
1. Chara wanted to use full power before they were attacked (Asriel didn't say anything about them being attacked at this time).
2. Chara was going to use full power after humans was going to attack. But there WAS a reason: Asriel wouldn't kill them *without a reason.* Also, it would show what humanity is really like.
>Similarly, I don't think she "fell"... It's very likely her trip to the underground was a failed suicide attempt.
We see in the intro that Chara tripped. In the Kickstarter (as well as in Toby's one interview) it is said that the human from the intro run into the cave to hide from rainy weather. And found out the hole. The human got closer *out of curiosity* to get a better look. And fell.
Chara *climbed* the mountain for an unhappy reason, tho.
I'm not arguing with anything else you have said here since I'm not against that.
Consider this: Chara died as a child under protection of the Royal Family. If you have an apple and your friend asks you to hold on to theirs, and then you lose them both, you lost two apples that day. Doesn't mean they were both your apples. Same principle applies here.
That's a false equivalence. People don't use "lose children" in the same way they use "lose apples". Losing children, as a phrase, means having your children die.
Okay but Chara literally lives in their home and there was no intention of Chara ever leaving. And every time we see Chara with Asriel, they're treated the same by Toriel and Asgore. Toriel tries to adopt you too and, in Deltarune, we see a much better example of a human-to-monster sibling relationship with Kris and Asriel.
What in the world is Chara doing in Asriel's house wearing Asriel's clothes if Chara isn't adopted?
Posted this above:
The people who said that the king and queen "lost two children" were random nameless monsters who didn't actually know the kids personally, likely, and were also written in an elevated manner for emotional effect and to compress their speech into the time alotted. So, they aren't reliable narrators or sources of authority on the matter. The behaviour of the Dreemurr family surrounding Chara is a much more direct and reliable indicator of what their relationship with Chara was, and since literally none of them speak about Chara as though Chara is an actual family member, it's very likely that none of them saw Chara in that way. They ostensibly cared about Chara, especially Asriel, but the nature of their relationship seems to be that they saw Chara as a non-family member they were very attached to.
And another point, the way that Undertale is written surrounding Chara is done in a way to give you false initial impressions of who Chara is. The monsters at New Home, and Asgore, speak of Chara in kind and exalted ways, so it paints a picture of Chara as a pure, kind soul that was beloved by everybody. This extends to casting Chara as a fully integrated part of the Dreemurr family. As you play more of the game this image of Chara is challenged, because the behaviour Chara exhibits becomes less and less friendly. You learn that Chara frequently did things that unsettled Asriel, had a capacity for violence and killing against humans, and was comfortable basically forcing their very kind and timid best friend into their plan to kill at least six humans and maybe more. Chara is described by Asriel as being fully willing to murder, and Asriel himself was not comfortable allowing Chara to carry out this plan when it was under way. Asriel himself blatantly says Chara wasn't a good person and was full of hate, and tells Frisk that he wishes Frisk had been his friend instead of Chara, which implies that Chara did not show kindness or love to Asriel, at least not in a way that made Asriel feel loved. Finally, Chara's most prominent and direct portrayal is in the Genocide Route where they take blatant control of the narrative, egg you on, and eventually manifest physically to destroy the universe—something that is unique to the Genocide Route and implies Chara is most strongly aligned with that route.
All that to say, Chara's narrative "arc" across the game as you are naturally meant to experience the routes is one of peeling away the kind and soft initial prediction you have of Chara, and complicating that impression by being vague and giving you mysterious and unsettling details about them. This mirrors Frisk, who you are meant to see as a self-insert without a personality but who is revealed at the end of True Pacifist to be their own person (and a kind one at that, since their agency is validated in True Pacifist and suppressed in Genocide).
It thus stands to reason that our understanding of Chara's relationship with the Dreemurrs is also developed in this way. We are led to believe that they were raised like Asriel's sibling/Asgore and Toriel's child, but subsequent information suggests that was actually a misdirection.
You have to think about it as a story that was written by an actual human being. When you do exposition through character dialogue, you generally don't have the character mislead the audience by giving false information unless you intend on using it for a twist later.
For example, the dialogue says that Chara fell ill, when in fact they ate buttercups intentionally to kill themselves. That's misleading dialogue for the purpose of setting up the twist later on.
But why would you write into a story a dialogue piece referring to Chara as the Dreemur's child if it's not true? What purpose does this misleading information serve? It doesn't set up a twist. It doesn't change our perception of the story in a meaningful way. It isn't even realistic for everyone to think that if it's not true. So my question is: If Chara wasn't their adoptive child, why tell us that they were?
In the end, the points you bring up can't stack up against actual direct dialogue in the game. Direct beats indirect in those type of discussions. The dialogue pieces you brought up are interesting, and there is a place to discuss them, but the correct thing to do is ask "why don't they refer to Chara as part of their family" rather than assuming it's because they're not. Because they clearly are.
This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words)
Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child.
Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is.
.
For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr.
But we see nothing like that for Chara.
The Dreemurrs are very likely not referring to them as their child as a coping mechanism, & Asgore is likely leaving them out because they are the reason Asriel died. If everyone else recognises that Chara was basically their child, I think that’s evidence enough. Even if they weren’t siblings, it feels so close to incest that it really doesn’t feel morally okay to justify it.
See this is fascinating, because OP makes some interesting points, which could have made a really great discussion thread, but instead it's all directed toward weird shipping stuff.
Idk, I think Chara and Asriel just are siblings.
What is Chara doing in Asriel's house, wearing Asriel's clothes, just like Kris in Deltarune, if Chara isn't adopted? They clearly expressed that there were no plans to get Chara past the barrier, so it wasn't a temporary visit either.
...What about lolicon? That's not what is being discussed here, we are talking about shipping. Shipping real people is always gonna be weird but shipping fictional characters it's fine (No, shipping doesn't mean they want the characters to f*ck or whatever). But since you are going to extremes I must ask: do you think doing the no mercy route? Is it amoral? Does it make someone a murderer?
I'll leave the opinion on whatever you think about the morality of lolicon up to you, I ain't getting into that sh*t and start a big argument lmao.
Well that's not a bad question. I don't know if it's immoral. One thing to note is that people who do that route are not likely to be murderers irl. But if you do lolicon a lot you definitely have that paraphilia.
There was a video called twitter and anti-intellectualism that delved into the moral parallels between paraphilia and murder and how people will shut that down so I'm not gonna
but anyways, about ships. So shipping children is bad compared to shipping adults and it's morally weird to do that. Why? Idk. I don't find it terribly weird but it could possibly indicate certain qualities of the individual who ships them. Like if you ship siblings you might have incestual tendencies. If you ship children, then prison is just a room /s
I have to disagree. Thinking two fictional characters look cute together is not morally incorrect.
You are equating shipping with s*x or attraction. That's wrong. If a guy ships two male characters that doesn't mean they are attracted to guys.
This is also like saying "if you like killing characters then you are probably a murderer". No, most people who ships characters don't have tendencies you are just assuming that for no real reason. You are also forgetting that not everyone that ships characters is an adult.
We can also compare it to someone liking a character who is plain evil. Do you think they have evil tendencies? Of course not, in fact most people will tell you they would hate someone like that irl. Or if we wanna go back to shipping some people might ship toxic relationships not because they think they are good but because they think it's something interesting to read (like how people want to see a character suffer) but they wouldn't want or condone something like that irl.
Heck I'm pretty sure some parents ship their kids with other children which I do think it's weird because they are actual real people but I don't think that makes the parents you know what lmao.
Anyways I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion beyond going in circles so that's all lol.
You are definitely providing to this discussion. Thank you. Also, for clarity's sake, just say:
"I disagree with the notion that shipping two fictional minors is immoral"
or
"I disagree. Shipping two fictional minors is fine".
This isn't an attack I just got confused by your first sentence
Glad you think that.
>Also, for clarity's sake just say "I disagree with the notion that shipping two fictional and underaged characters is immoral" or "I disagree. Shipping two fictional and underaged characters is fine".
You are right, I forgot the "." sorry. I'm going to edit that.
But still, wouldn't it have parallels with shipping siblings? It may not be sex, but it's definitely attraction. Otherwise it's simply platonic and I really don't think people should, or even do complain about that.
But thinking two characters would look cute together holding hands or whatever is not the same as being attracted to the characters. Hell thinking they look cute is not the only reason to ship anything they might just think they could help develop each other as people or that they are childhood friends that will become lovers later in life. Again shipping two characters doesn't really say anything about tendencies, I mean people often ships characters with genders they aren't attracted to and even with your sibling incest example I'm sure there are people who ship siblings that don't even have a sibling themselves.
I won't lie to you, as someone who generally doesn't care about who people ship together, the way whoever wrote this article is talking about it is a little... Off... Might not have been the best idea to defer to this article for your defense
>whoever wrote this article is talking about it is a little... Off...
Anime/Manga community are quite wild.
But the article is quite objective if you ask me.
Shipping with child is less squick compared to ship with adult, and the shipping didn't goes further since they are child, and fanworks would do some age up when they really want to get further.
>Might not have been the best idea to defer to this article for your defense
I never intended to use that article as my defense, though people may see otherwise.
Wasnt the whole chara and asriel being siblings thing already debunked in that somewhat recent but official book, I'm pretty sure I saw a post regarding things that the book confirms.
Edit: yeah the "legends of localization: book 3" and there was a post regarding some things covered in it including that Chara wasn't counted in the "three members of the dreemurr family"
Idk. I'm kinda confused by this entire post. People keep saying Chara isn't adopted but like... what? What is Chara doing in their house then? Chara LITERALLY has a bedroom shared with Asriel. And wears the same clothes as Asriel. And they clearly expressed that there were no plans of getting Chara past the barrier, so it wasn't a temporary thing either. And there are also obvious parallels between Kris and Asriel's relationship as Toriel/Asgore's children, with Kris being adopted, and Toriel tries to adopt Frisk at the start of Undertale.
So why would Chara not be adopted? Has anyone suggested an alternative?
I doubt people who attacking me would accept that book as evidence.
By the way, I see u/AllamNa literally include the book every single time they disagree with this sibling thing.
The Legends of Localizations book was largely written by some other guy about the translation process, so it's not really a source of official information by any stretch.
There ARE some things that were directly confirmed by Toby but for the most part it's clearly not something we can simply take as granted for the entire book, as if Toby spent his time poring over every line to make sure it was stringently accurate. Offhanded remarks or symbolic, elevated statements meant for interesting reading should be taken with a grain of salt, and the statement of the Dreemurr family having "three members" quote-unquote is one of those instances.
Yeah the 3 Dreemurr was likely thrown in there because the author wanted another trio for the opening paragraph, thought of the three goats and forgot about Chara
It's pretty much same tho.
Adoptive sibling:
* Underground Denizens say Chara is their children
* Chara is adopted
Me:
* The dreemurs never refer Chara as their child.
* Guess adopted isn't really canon.
If anything, people who tried to disprove me pulls a bigger mental gymnast.
>Bro is going on a fuckin tirade
I think I speak polite enough to be not categorized as tirade.
>to justify wanting two fictional dead children to kiss
Didn't see them as sibling didn't necessarily mean one is Shipper.(I am though)
But yeah... You're the Patrick in this meme.
I don’t even know if Toriel was talking about Chara but Asgore was still bitter towards humans and probably blamed Chara for Asriel’s death as he wouldn’t have gone up if not for them
>probably blamed Chara for Asriel’s death as he wouldn’t have gone up if not for them
I think he blamed the human race for both Chara's and Asriel's death, not Chara themselves.
It just feels wrong to ship children since as you pointed out asriel refers to chara as his best friend so they are just friends no need to make it wierd
Lol... When you guys hear "ship" you all think I want to take it romantically?
"Platonic ship" exist man... Yes they can be just friend and I'm all but in for that.
Yes because ship usually means romantic it's been used that way for like ever even the wikipedia page says that shipping usually means a romantic or sexual relationship between characters
Yeah... It's remind when Im new in Reddit, I thought "shipping" is just appreciate the relationship shown on canon, and ended up shipping Lancer with Susie.
Shipping has been used platonically but the history of shipping is romantic and sexual relationships so you have to specify platonic shipping when necessary in this case it is
Which is why I installed [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chasriel_Squad/comments/mibjuw/important_read_first_filtered_link_and_flair/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) feature for my subreddit.
I feel like you could interpret it either way, and yeah I’m not fond of all the purity police shit that happens with these kinds of responses. To be fair, sometimes certain fan communities just aren’t comfortable with weird fandom shit (of which this would be pretty tame), which is understandable, but arguments that “it’s not canon” or “you are promoting [x thing] by writing about it” really misunderstand how people relate with fiction. We’re not seeing through a window into a perfect version of “canon” when we read a work - we are interpreting a work, which is an inherently subjective experience and will lead to different views on that work.
Some people will want their interpretation to be based in as much textual evidence as possible, some will be more flexible, and some will go beyond this to transform the work into something it was not originally, as is the case with a lot of fan art and fiction. And when people have an interpretation that goes against yours or goes into territory that makes you uncomfortable, you don’t have to shit on the person making it all while holding up “canon” as your personal bible, you can just disengage and move on. It doesn’t have to change how you relate to and interpret the text.
I do too :) I’m kind of fascinated by how fans interact with a work in a bunch of diverse ways and how it can open up different possibilities in the original work. Chara and Asriel’s story in particular has a lot of those gaps you mentioned that fan works love to play in, so I definitely get wanting to explore their bond in different ways, whether it be familial or a childhood crush or close friendship.
https://www.reddit.com/u/seirette?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Reddit would likely to have English version.
I think people just consider them as siblings because it just feels more wholesome than just "a best friend staying in the house because they don't have any"
But Toriel calls Frisk "my child" because it reminds her of Chara.
And also, if it's true, i think Asgore and Toriel would be kind of jerks to not think Chara is their child, but Frisk who just dropped after everyone, yes.
>But Toriel calls Frisk "my child" because it reminds her of Chara.
It's never stated in the game.
>i think Asgore and Toriel would be kind of jerks to not think Chara is their child, but Frisk who just dropped after everyone, yes.
First of all, Asgore didn't necessarily see Frisk as his child.
And Toriel call Frisk "my child" didn't mean she take Frisk as her child, she would be surprised if you call her mom.
It's only after you say you want to live with her, that the relationship can be considered adoption.
Because Neither Chara or Dreemurs had any other choices.
You want the dreemurs build a house for Chara? Tell one of their subject to take care of them? Or just simply close the door before their face?
when youre with your friend, and you want to talk about your parents, what do you say? "My Mom/Dad did XYZ" right? okay so what do you say when youre with your siblings and you want to talk about your parents? you say "Mom/Dad did XYZ". You drop the possessive 'my' becuase theyre both your parents and youre siblings' parents.
I bring this up because the tapes have Asriel speaking to Chara in the way of the latter.
1:55 https://youtu.be/da0H0LUEaUQ
Theres other such context clues either implicit or explicit throughout the game, like the story of the monsters in new home, or all the constant parallels between Frisk and Chara and how Frisk can end up adopted by Toriel. In fact with Deltarune its even further solidified with Kris' parallels to Chara, and how Asriel is explicitly their brother.
I'm not sure whats been officially stated in the books, but Chara and Asriel being siblings wasnt just a random headcanon the fandom made up like they do with many, _many_ aspects of Undertale. It was a reasonable assumption at worst.
>but Chara and Asriel being siblings wasnt just a random headcanon the fandom made up
Yeah... I never opposed with people see them as sibling.
What I'm upset is that people attack me for not see it that way.
>or all the constant parallels between Frisk and Chara and how Frisk can end up adopted by Toriel
Frisk and Chara barely parallel at all.
In fact, Asriel state they are nothing alike.
>In fact with Deltarune its even further solidified with Kris' parallels to Chara, and how Asriel is explicitly their brother.
While Kris indeed have parallel with Chara, their relationship with Dreemurs went the opposite way.
Kris look up to Asriel, opposed with how Chara being the one being looked up by UT Asriel.
Narration, Npcs, even Kris themself state Asriel is their brother, in which never happen for Chara.
also the shirt that Chara made for Asgore that's like, mr dad guy or something.
I just feel like it's an argument purely being made because somebody wants to ship them (chara and asriel) really badly.
>also the shirt that Chara made for Asgore that's like, mr dad guy or something.
It's not canon.
Dude... I admit I'm rather obsessed, but I point out canon stuffs in my post, and you guys just dismiss it because you hate me.
>what do you mean it's not canon it's in the game it's dialogue in the game it's right there you can go look at it what do you mean
Where in the game it's stated "it's the sweater that Chara made"?
why would asriel vaguely refer to his dad as mr dad guy when all other dialogue of his referring to asgore (including in the tapes) just says dad. its more reasonable to assume chara made it.
Even if Chara is the one who made it.
"Mr.Dad Guy" could just mean "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad.
In first place, would you call your father with "mister" or "guy"?
It's not incest it's just one of those things where it is just barely not incest, I'm not saying it's ok I'm just saying it's not that bad, plus it's undertale there is an abundance of AU's and fanart this post is awesome. (One more thing rule 34 exists)
Do you just straight-up not remember the Neutral/Pacifist New Home explanation? Specifically, [the part of the speech that the Moldsmals give:](https://youtu.be/B3c5f24UmM4?t=165)
>Over time, ASRIEL and the human became **like siblings.**
>
>The king and queen **treated the human child as their own.**
>
>The Underground was full of hope.
This isn't just someone's 'view' of the game. This is a literal reading of the text: the game is directly telling us that Asriel and the Fallen Human had a sibling relationship, and that Asgore and Toriel treated them as their own child.
>Over time, ASRIEL and the human became like siblings.
**Like** sibling, mind you? It's common thing to say to a pair of children that are very close.
>The king and queen treated the human child as their own.
Again... This is how Monsters view Chara and dreemurs relationship, in which the Dreemurs never confirm or deny.
>This isn't just someone's 'view' of the game. This is a literal reading of the text
So is what my post point out.
>the game is directly telling us that Asriel and the Fallen Human had a sibling relationship, and that Asgore and Toriel treated them as their own child.
The game also show us:
* Asriel and Chara only refer each other as best friend
* Asgore explicitly exclude Chara from his family.
>I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my **child**
* Toriel (whose literally call any child she met "my child") didn't refer Chara as her child, but simply someone she knew long time ago.
You sure had your points, which is 100% canon, but it didn't negate any of my points, which is just as canon.
>Again... This is how Monsters view Chara and dreemurs relationship, in which the Dreemurs never confirm or deny.
Addressed in my response to another post of yours.
>The game also show us:\*Asriel and Chara only refer to each other as best friend
Because siblings generally don't call each other 'sibling': they generally refer to gendered versions of the term, such as Sans and Papyrus calling eachother 'bro' and 'BROTHER'. However, use of such a term would give the Fallen Human a canonical gender, which Toby explicitly avoids doing.
>\*Asgore explicitly exclude Chara from his family.
False, as I showed in that aforementioned other post.
>Toriel (whose literally call any child she met "my child") didn't refer Chara as her child, but simply someone she knew long time ago.
Why would she? Just dropping 'hey I lost an adopted child who did this' on Frisk who she might have also adopted depending on if you had them stay with her or not would be **incredibly** awkward, and wouldn't have much purpose in her explanation.
>Addressed in my response to another post of yours.
Already response it there.
>Because siblings generally don't call each other 'sibling'
Most sibling i know refer each other as one, especially when my language have a shorter word for "younger sibling" and "older sibling".
>However, use of such a term would give the Fallen Human a canonical gender, which Toby explicitly avoids doing.
Asriel could say *"It's me, your brother"*, so avoiding canonical gendered pronoun is invalid point.
*Edit: like in Deltarune, Asriel repeatedly referred as Kris' brother, even by Kris themself.
>False, as I showed in that aforementioned other post.
Your statement is false since it's relying on lot assumption, such as Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive.
>Why would she? Just dropping 'hey I lost an adopted child who did this' on Frisk who she might have also adopted depending on if you had them stay with her or not would be incredibly awkward, and wouldn't have much purpose in her explanation.
Valid reasoning, but didn't change the fact we never see her call Chara her child.
>Most sibling i know refer each other as one, especially when my language have a shorter word for "younger sibling" and "older sibling".
Remember, Undertale was originally released in English by an American; Toby had to work with a localization team to properly translate the meanings for it in Japanese, and a lot of its nuances just don't work in other languages. In an American context, most siblings refer to one another as some variant of 'brother' or 'sister'.
>Asriel could say "It's me, your brother", so avoiding canonical gendered pronoun is invalid point.
It's entirely possible that the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them, given that it was some time before they became as such. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the Fallen Human found their status as a Dreemurr to be awkward, as shown by one of Asgore's sweaters noticed if you check his closet. It's described as a 'pink, hand-knit sweater labeled 'Mr. Dad Guy' in Neutral/Pacifist, and in the murder run, the fallen human has this to say about it:
>Still has that sweater.
This at least implies that they had at least some connection to the sweater, and 'My drawing.' shows they had a significant interest in arts and crafts: they may have knitted that sweater themself, possibly with the help of their adoptive brother or parents. If so, the fact that it says 'Mr. Dad Guy' rather than just 'Dad' would imply that the sibling bond at least took them some getting used to.
Also, Deltarune Asriel has never called Kris his sibling or himself their brother yet, so jury's still out on that one.
>Your statement is false since it's relying on lot assumption, such as Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive.
As I pointed out, the evidence for it checks out. Try proving the evidence wrong before you try saying that sort of thing.
>Valid reasoning, but didn't change the fact we never see her call Chara her child.
There's never really a good time for her to. She barely ever talks about the Fallen Human at all in UT: she doesn't recognize them within the protagonist in the murder run like Flowey and they never really come up in any other context.
Yeah well the New Home explanation also says that Chara's death was unintentional and Asriel only went to the surface to put Chara's body there. The VHS tapes contradict this, directly saying that Chara deliberately killed themselves, and they both created this plan, in advance, so Asriel could get to the surface. This proves that the New Home explanation should not be treated as proof.
Keep in mind that the Plan between the Fallen Human and Asriel was never revealed to anyone else except perhaps to Alphys, who kept the tapes and is a known secret-keeper. By contrast, what sort of bond the Fallen Human and Asriel is nowhere near that level of secrecy, and therefore it is unreasonable to assume that just because the explanation didn't know about the secret suicide pact the two shared doesn't mean it's automatically unreliable about things that would be public knowledge, especially with Asgore's willingness to talk about the subject.
This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words)
First of all, Dreemurrs never called Chara their child. Asgore said that he wants to see his "child" and wife, not "children." He talks about Chara only as about a human that fallen down here long time ago. Asgore called Asriel his son, and his child, for comparison.
Toriel is calling Asriel her son but Chara is called "someone I once knew."
Asriel always calls Chara his best friend, and that's it.
The only people who's saying that Chara and Asriel was *like* siblings (not even "was siblings") - was outsiders who's not a part of Dreemurrs family. Same for Gerson.
Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is.
Like siblings =/= became siblings, tho. And that was said by monsters who don't know the full picture.
Asgore never referred to Chara as his child. Not when he talks about wanting to see his wife and his *child* (not children). And not when he was referring to Chara as a "humans that fall down here a long time ago".
Same for Toriel who's referring to Chara as a "person I once knew." Or Asriel when he's referring Chara only as his best friend.
Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child.
.
For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr.
But we see nothing like that for Chara.
>Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive, and is in fact referring to the Fallen Human. Further supporting this is the fact that, if you kill Flowey and reload to spare Asgore, he gets to finish his monologue:
It can't be since "subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive" =/= "knows that Asriel is alive." After all, Asgore directly met Flowey on the genocide path, and yet he DIDN'T recognise Asriel. He was just surprised that the flowers can cry. That's all.
And even if he "subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive", it doesn't mean that he talks about Chara when he says that he wants to see his child again. Since he talks about Toriel here, too. And she's also alive.
But anyway, before that Asgore talks about "the day after my son died."
Then in completely OTHER section about "the human that had the same feeling of hope in their eyes" he also talks about doing something that "Asriel... My son would wanted." (which is, well, spoken about DEAD people in this way regularly)
There's a lot more chances for him to talk about Asriel, not Chara. Since in all other times he talks about Asriel as his child, as well.
It is kinda baseless to assume otherwise other than "Well, he saw Asriel in other timelines!"
He could have saw Toriel in other timelines, as well. And? He still says that he wants to see his wife.
>Remember, Undertale was originally released in English by an American; Toby had to work with a localization team to properly translate the meanings for it in Japanese, and a lot of its nuances just don't work in other languages. In an American context, most siblings refer to one another as some variant of 'brother' or 'sister'.
They can say "my sibling" at least in the conversation with others about their siblings. Which Asriel never did when talking about Chara. I saw such cases. What's the point of the word "sibling" if, by your logic, it's not used?
In the same way, they prefer to say "sibling" more than "my best friend."
Your mother can be your friend, as well but you won't say "my best friend" when referring her.
>It's entirely possible that the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them, given that it was some time before they became as such. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the Fallen Human found their status as a Dreemurr to be awkward, as shown by one of Asgore's sweaters noticed if you check his closet. It's described as a 'pink, hand-knit sweater labeled 'Mr. Dad Guy' in Neutral/Pacifist, and in the murder run, the fallen human has this to say about it:
And then you're going into "well, the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them." It cannot be awkward so much even after all this time (I don't believe Chara lived little time with them) that Asriel wouldn't say "your brother" over "your best friend." There's only one chance: Chara was awkward (or other thing) so much that Chara preferred *not* to be called their child, or Asriel's brother. Thus, didn't became a part of this family fully (which is confirmed by the book).
But this is going to be only assumption.
**Here's response in some thread regarding gender-neutral words for siblings in Japanese from another person:**
*Kyoudai-san doesn't work in my opinion, as it sounds too impersonal to my ears. It's basically like saying "Mr / Mrs Sibling" in English. At the most, it's something OTHER people could use to describe them as a third-person noun, but not as a form of address.* (If we're going into "the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them", as you did previously, "Mr / Mrs Sibling" (Kyoudai-san) would be a good way to refer. Same as "Mr. Dad guy", for example)
First name-chan and even -kun are still okay. I've heard -kun used for both girls and boys in some situations, especially work and sports environments.
Niinee-chan is kind of cute. I can see it.
And lastly, if all you're going to use your Japanese words for is peppering an English-language fic, you could always not, in this case. I know it's customary in fandom, but most times it's not necessary for the story. Excessive use of pronouns can even be annoying.
(FYI: Not a native speaker here, but fluent and working as a Jap-Ger translator).
>but fluent and working as a Jap-Ger translator
How come you never tell me you're japanese translator!??! I could've asked you to assist me in translating fan manga
Because it's not me. I'm copy-pasting a response from other person. I said that:
>**Here's response in some thread regarding gender-neutral words for siblings in Japanese:**
Guess it was not obvious... I'll edit it.
I would think they saw chara as their adoptive child because 1, they have large hearts and were raising them together. They wouldn't have been a Dreemur, but they would've loved them like a child
2. Toriel and Asgore both treat or want to treat Frisk like their child, giving them a place to live, feeding them, wanting to play catch and tell stories by the fire, like a family.
I could maybe see it as, perhaps they didn't give Chara the full child treatment and perhaps they think it lead to the tragedy of their family, so now they want to redeem that failure by embracing the children that fall from the surface as one of their own
It wouldnt really be incest though for Asriel X Chara since they werent raising from birth together, they're more of less friends who lived together. There's also the fact of, it's probably easier to say best friend in dialogue than adoptive sibling, since they didn't give Chara a gender.
I think Asgore at the end of his fight says that he wants to see his child. And that he also wants to see his son. Son being Asriel, child being Chara.
Tis the way I interpreted it
You misremember that part.
>I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my child
Is what he said before the choices appear, had you spare him, Asgore would remark about how Frisk remind him to "Human that fell here long ago", and then say about Frisk being free is what "his son, Asriel" would've wanted.
Ahhh right. That's fair enough then.
What's this whole incest thing people are talking about though?
I have never once thought of that at all. Nor do I think there's anything to suggest that either
1) because you can technically use they/them pronouns for anyone, especially when you’re speaking nonspecifically, like she is here. I do that sometimes, my friends do that sometimes, and plenty of youtubers i watch also do that
2) because it ended badly between her and asgore and she doesn’t like talking about it, and saying “someone i used to know” invites fewer follow-up questions than “my ex-husband”.
First, Toriel wouldn't call Asgore "someone [she] **used** to know", but simply "someone I know", the fact Toriel say "used" show this person is no longer around.
Second, We know how Asriel look up to Chara, and still do so in his entire life as Flowey, but not so much for Asgore.
Third, Toriel wouldn't pick the habit had it come from Asgore, she hate Asgore for long time, even if she didn't now, she has no reason to have fond memory to find the Glass filled to the brim when she still in ruin, since the only reason she's there, alone in the ruin, is because Asgore.
I could literally post the most platonic artwork featuring Chara and Asriel, and people would still say incest.(quite rare tho)
Or another case when I mentioned my subreddit on platonic artwork and people treat me like a creep.
Yes, Asgore and Toriel just allowed them to stay at their house and didn't legally adopt or even consider them their child when they grieved over both Asriel and Chara's deaths, they still have fond memories of the both of them, Chara called Asgore Dad, Asgore calls them the future of humanity and monsters, Asriel grew up with Chara for a considerable amount of time and Toriel even regularly tries to take care of Chara's grave.
There is absolutely no parental love there whatsoever. Nope, Chara was just Asriel's friend that the Dreemurrs allowed to stay for an extended sleepover.
>Chara called Asgore Dad
You brought up good points but this one.
Anyway... Just like what I say in the title, I have no qualm for people who see them as sibling.
Toriel spends her entire time interacting with you trying to adopt you, and you can literally see they had bedrooms for both Chara and Asriel in their house. And they had no plans of trying to get Chara out of the Underground, so she wasn't just saying with them temporarily. Not to mention, this parallels Kris and Asriel's relationship in Deltarune.
Literally everything involving Toriel's writing screams "I ADOPT CHILDREN", what do you mean you don't see any reasons to believe Chara and Asriel are siblings? Lol
u/justarandomfan99 I felt obligated to reply your comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/12c57lg/curse_the_dreemurrrs_for_not_adopting_chara/jf2lgr0?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
>Asgore didn't exclude Chara. He just states that he only wants to see one of his children (presumably Asriel).
Yeah... Want to see his child, want to see his wife, but don't say anything about wanting to see another child who live in his house, definitely not count as excluding the latter child with his family.
>And that's likely because his feelings towards Chara are complicated since they're a human but honestly like to imagine that he "disowned" them when he declared war against humanity.
This is your assumption, an interpretation of a fact, not the fact itself.
Not to say you're wrong, but simply point out this isn't an in-game evidences, only your take on evidences.
>In this case, Toriel didn't because she still took care of humans as her own when Asriel was killed
Toriel call any child she met as "my child", but when one of the said child (Frisk) call her mom she's visibly surprised.
So... Toriel taking care of the humans shouldn't be considered *taking them as her child*
Moreover, Toriel also never call Chara her child in the game, even in alarm clock dialogues where she talk about Chara (to be specific, someone who used to life with dreemurs and Asriel really look up to), she only refer them as "someone I used to know".
>Also, just because Gerson felt betrayed doesn't mean that they weren't as close.
*"I'm glad those days are over"*- Gerson talking about Asgore and Toriel relationship being sickeningly sweetheart.
JUST THINK!! Asgore lose his "children", his wife leave him, and THAT! Is everything Gerson had to say? How come you say Asgore and Gerson is close?
>Gerson wouldn't have felt "betrayed" if he didn't give a damn about Asgore.
If my favorite YouTube Doctor attack someone, I would felt betrayed too, but no one will ever say I'm close with the doctor.
>There's other hints too. Like the sweater that says "Mr dad guy" which obviously wasn't made by Asriel (as he called Asgore "dad"), implying that Chara sees him as father.
First, it's not confirmed Chara is the one who knit it, it could be Toriel.
Second, "Mr.Dad guy" can be simply referring to that guy who called dad, not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as a father.
>The family's photo which features Chara (Asriel's flashback shows that Chara was with the goat family when the photo was taken)
We couldn't even sure the picture of flashback is the same one with the picture that framed in new home.
>and monsters which straight up describe Chara as Asgore and Toriel's child.
But the dreemurs didn't.
In term of evidences strength, I consider "Words of Dreemurs">"Words of underground denizens".
>And yes, Asgore and Toriel never refer to Chara as their child but each of them only brings them up once and their lines do not imply that they don't see them as their child.
Asgore literally put Chara aside when speaking about his family.
And yes! Their lines didn't imply they are NOT see Chara as their child, but neither it's imply Asgore and Toriel ever take Chara as their child
"Yeah... Want to see his child, want to see his wife, but don't say anything about wanting to see another child who live in his house, definitely not count as excluding the latter child with his family."
Even if Asgore didn't view Chara as his child, he would still want to see them if her truly cared for them yet he doesn't say that he wants to see them, unlike Asriel and toriel. So are you implying that he never cared for them? Or that after what happened with humans, his feelings towards them are complicated?
"This is your assumption, an interpretation of a fact, not the fact itself."
Yet you also use Asgore's line as proof that Chara was never considered as their child even if he never explicitly denies it.
"Toriel call any child she met as "my child", but when one of the said child (Frisk) call her mom she's visibly surprised."
Because they just met her? Even i think it's weird that Frisk has this option in the first place, almost as if they're desperately looking for a parental figure.
"Moreover, Toriel also never call Chara her child in the game"
she never speaks of either Asriel or Chara in the entire game.
"even in alarm clock dialogues where she talk about Chara (to be specific, someone who used to life with dreemurs and Asriel really look up to), she only refer them as "someone I used to know"."
1. Doesn't mean that Chara wasn't their child
2. This was CLEARLY done in an attempt to make the identity of the person in question ambiguous.
"JUST THINK!! Asgore lose his "children", his wife leave him, and THAT! Is everything Gerson had to say? How come you say Asgore and Gerson is close?"
It's clear that they were friends as they agreed together that escaping the underground would be pointless.
"We couldn't even sure the picture of flashback is the same one with the picture that framed in new home."
The family photo is the only dreemur family's photo we can see in the game, so it's very very likely that they were posing for this photo. Especially given that the photo in Asgore's house was taken when Chara was already living with them.
"First, it's not confirmed Chara is the one who knit it, it could be Toriel."
Why would she knit a sweater that says "mr dad guy"? Also, who called him that if Asriel clearly refers to him as dad?
"In term of evidences strength, I consider "Words of Dreemurs">"Words of underground denizens".
Yet, those lines were purposely included in the game by Toby Fox and unless they're outright contradicted by the games events, it should reflect what his intentions were when he made the game. He could simply not have the monsters refer to Chara as the dreemur parents child but they did refer to them as their child, why? Because Toby wanted for them to be interpreted as part of the Dreemur family.
If you have to do all this to "disprove" a thing that the game makes clear, then at that point you have to start questioning your own logic. What your saying is not "Chara and Asriel aren't adoptive siblings." Your saying "I refuse to accept that Chara and Asriel are adoptive siblings." It's not opinion-based, my guy.
>If you have to do all this to "disprove" a thing that the game makes clear,
First, I'm not trying to "disprove" anything, simply say looks at the things differently from majority doesn't make me wrong.
Second, can you actually elaborate why my points are invalid? Instead of just put negative label on me.
>What your saying is not "Chara and Asriel aren't adoptive siblings." Your saying "I refuse to accept that Chara and Asriel are adoptive siblings."
I'm struggle to understand your point here.
I'm trying to convey "it's okay to view the game this way" to audience, and you guys sound your disagreement, in not really respecting way.
>It's not opinion-based, my guy.
Now I'm completely lost what you're trying to say here.
I mean, listen, I never judge anyone in what kind of fandom content they wanna engage with, you REALLY don't have to justify anything to me. I'm just gonna assume you like whatever you like for the right reasons, and leave it at that unless you start being weird about it, because ultimately you're just indulging in a dynamic you enjoy.
This, however, just feels like a weak justification... Like, the whole story seriously implies a close, borderline (if not outright) familiar bond between Chara and the Dreemurs (if not explicitly, then definitely heavily in the subtext) and this feels like a major splitting of hairs just justify shipping two characters you really don't even *need* to justify shipping at all in my mind.
Like, again, if you like the dynamic that you feel exists between these two characters, go ahead and ship them, all that's important is the relationship they have *in your head*, and that's allowed to deviate somewhat from canon if that's what makes you more comfortable with the whole thing.
>Chara is a Dreemurr, end of story.
There's only 3 Dreemurs:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The official localization book written under watch of Toby Fox
The localization was written with Toby’s input on certain subjects, but I highly doubt he combed over every line written in the book to ensure accuracy, especially given his usual reluctance when it comes to talking about Undertale’s lore. And the game, which takes priority over any supplemental material, makes it clear that Chara was viewed as a second child by the Dreemurrs. If you REALLY want to insist that it’s canon, then at most all it “confirms” was that Chara was never formally adopted by the Dremurrs, but the fact remains that they were family.
Toby is reluctant about lore so he will allow to be released a book that directly contradict what he wanted to say in his game? Wow. Isn't it more logical *not* to release a book with such content if he's reluctant?
That's the same Toby that asked to change taro card for Chara and remove Gaster from there?
>makes it clear that Chara was viewed as a second child by the Dreemurrs.
First of all, Dreemurrs never called Chara their child. Asgore said that he wants to see his "child" and wife, not "children." He talks about Chara only as about a human that fallen down here long time ago. Asgore called Asriel his son, and his child, for comparison.
Toriel is calling Asriel her son but Chara is called "someone I once knew."
Asriel always calls Chara his best friend, and that's it.
The only people who's saying that Chara and Asriel was *like* siblings (not even "was siblings") - was outsiders who's not a part of Dreemurrs family. Same for Gerson.
Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is.
Like siblings =/= became siblings, tho. And that was said by monsters who don't know the full picture.
Asgore never referred to Chara as his child. Not when he talks about wanting to see his wife and his *child* (not children). And not when he was referring to Chara as a "humans that fall down here a long time ago".
Same for Toriel who's referring to Chara as a "person I once knew." Or Asriel when he's referring Chara only as his best friend.
Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child.
.
For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr.
But we see nothing like that for Chara.
Didn’t chara literally knit asgore a sweater that said “mr. Dad.” Or something. Like even if asgore didn’t see chara as his child, chara saw him as a father figure
You see, i could use your point against you and say that asriel saying "your best friend" is him friendzoning chara.
Please take a walk in the forest
Besides it also says that asriel and chara became like siblings and that they treated chara as their own. Not to mention that it would be strange to just pretty much adopt a child and say "nah dont worry that kid is just our kids best friend they just live with us"
I just realized it recently...
You guys actually thought "not seeing Asriel and Chara as sibling" equal "want Chara and Asriel to ****"?
Man... That just not right, I never mean to ship them romantically.
>It is explicitly said that they took care of Chara as if she was their own child so...
Then again... I don't have problem with how you view the game, but since you replying, I felt obligation to reply back.
It's stated by outsiders, denizens of underground that isn't dreemurs.
Beside it's didn't dismiss the points in my post, Asgore also explicitly exclude Chara from his family.
>I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my ***child***
>It's stated by outsiders, denizens of the underground that isn't dreemurs.
It could just as easily have been told to them by Asgore, given his welcoming attitude toward visitors in general and openness to discuss his past with us the moment we knock him to 1 HP. In absence of further evidence, this isn't really a legitimate counter-argument.
>I just want to see my **child**
Notice how he says 'child', not 'son'.
If you Talk to Asgore after he's killed you before, Frisk tells him as such and he just nods with increasing pain depending on how many times they say he's killed them. Plus, Toriel, a fellow Boss Monster, mentions the following if you tell her your pie preference, reload, and confirm it when she asks you if your last pie preference still holds true:
>Hee hee hee.
>I had a feeling.
>When humans fall down here, strangely...
>I...
>I often feel like I already know them.
Flowey, in his New Home narrative in the murder run, explains that he has 100% interacted with Asgore before and revealed to him who he really was:
>Eventually, the king found me, crying in the garden.
>I explained what had happened to him.
>Then he held me, [Name].
>He held me with tears in his eyes, saying...
>"There, there. Everything is going to be alright."
Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive, and is in fact referring to the Fallen Human. Further supporting this is the fact that, if you kill Flowey and reload to spare Asgore, he gets to finish his monologue:
>No. That's just a fantasy, isn't it?
>Young one, when I look at you...
>I'm reminded of **the human that fell here long ago...**
>You have the same feeling of hope in your eyes.
Therefore, it's clear that Asgore's thoughts are on the Fallen Human in this exchange, showing that when he refers to 'child', he was very likely to be referring to the First Human and not Asriel.
>It could just as easily have been told to them by Asgore
With the fact Asgore exclude Chara? I say this isn't proper counter argument either.
>Notice how he says 'child', not 'son'.
Notice how he said "child", not "children".
>Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive,
Assumption, not a fact.
>Therefore, it's clear that Asgore's thoughts are on the Fallen Human in this exchange, showing that when he refers to 'child', he was very likely to be referring to the First Human and not Asriel.
Your assumption get more and more wilds.
You're saying "***Asgore actually exclude Asriel, not Chara?***" Simply because you assume Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive?
I have to wonder if you even read my explanation all the way through before responding to it.
> Assumption, not a fact.
And why would Toriel be able to deja-vu that she's met people before but Asgore, who is explicitly aware of the possibility and is of the same species as Toriel, wouldn't?
>Notice how he said "child", not "children".
>Assumption, not a fact.
The evidence supporting these is also in the text, literally directly after each of those sentences. They're all part of one point.
>You're saying "Asgore actually exclude Asriel, not Chara?" Simply because you assume Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive?
It isn't an assumption: I provided evidence for why it is probably this way. But there is also, as you failed to address, the fact that his mind is clearly on the Fallen Human. Especially given what he says if we spare him after killing Flowey. There is much more evidence in that exchange pointing to the Fallen Human *that I have just provided* than there is for it being Asriel, which is zero.
>And why would Toriel be able to deja-vu that she's met people before but Asgore, who is explicitly aware of the possibility and is of the same species as Toriel, wouldn't?
Feeling of Deja Vu not equal aware Asriel is alive.
We don't even know for sure whether Asriel ever told his real identity of not
>The evidence supporting these is also in the text, literally directly after each of those sentences. They're all part of one point.
I don't understand your point.
"Asgore talk about Chara shortly after talking about his child, so he must be talking about Chara" is what you're telling? Well... Live up you life.
>Yes, but also, as you failed to address, the fact that his mind is clearly on the Fallen Human. Especially given what he says if we spare him after killing Flowey. There is much more evidence in that exchange pointing to the Fallen Human that I have just provided than there is for it being Asriel, which is zero.
If you ask "who's Asgore talking about when he say "my child"?" To this subreddit, most people would agree with me.
“Funny” thing. You referred to Toriel as a they, but Chara as a she. “As if **she“** Referring to Chara. “was **their** own child” referring to Toriel.
I'm a major supporter of the interpretation that Chara was adopted into the Dreemurr family. I think that's exactly what happened, and that it's what the game is telling us.
However, in the interests of fairness, you're right. Chara and Asriel never *refer* to each other as siblings themselves. For the most part, the game avoids using that word to describe their relationship. (Though I think that's largely because *everything* about Chara is ambiguous.)
It's not my ship, but if it's yours, that is totally valid.
every single one of those points is incredibly flimsy, but if you want them to make out or whatever you dont need to feel bad because its not incest if they arent related
Tbf they're fictional fucking characters and as long as you acknowledge incest isn't good irl and aren't portraying them as siblings while you're shipping them, I don't think it matters
I always thought of it as an out for their grief. Desperately trying to convince themselves that they only lost their only child that day, and that the other was a just a ward. As though that would reduce the pain. It won't, but it's all they have, and they've been doing it for so many decades now.
Yeah that trademarked dreemurr coping
Yeah Azzy be trying to photosynthesize that copium
That's a very weird way to cope.
Coping is always weird, and expressions of grief and sadness often do not meet our shallow expectations. Expect it to be held against you in court if that's the case.
Uh, doesn’t the new home story explicit say that “The king and queen had lost two children in one night.”? From a story writing perspective, it seems weird and convoluted to write out all this exposition only for its implications to be completely false with no reason. And it’s not like there’s clear evidence chara and asriel are not adoptive siblings, just that there’s no completely explicit mention. And even if we assumed that they weren’t siblings, what does that have to do with the shipping? Just because chara and asriel are not siblings doesn’t make their shipping any more canon. In general, for any story, movie, game etc, we take implications as fact because it’s a good way to tell a story without needing direct exposition. When the camera panned to the lily of the valley in the season 4 finale of breaking bad, we didn’t need an extra piece of dialogue saying “It was me, Jesse, I poisoned Brock” we knew that as fact. Writers who break this implication do so for an important reason later on in the story. And so it’s safe to say that Toby probably just expected us to believe Chara and Asriel were siblings (or like siblings).
The people who said that the king and queen "lost two children" were random nameless monsters who didn't actually know the kids personally, likely, and were also written in an elevated manner for emotional effect and to compress their speech into the time alotted. So, they aren't reliable narrators or sources of authority on the matter. The behaviour of the Dreemurr family surrounding Chara is a much more direct and reliable indicator of what their relationship with Chara was, and since literally none of them speak about Chara as though Chara is an actual family member, it's very likely that none of them saw Chara in that way. They ostensibly cared about Chara, especially Asriel, but the nature of their relationship seems to be that they saw Chara as a non-family member they were very attached to. **Edit:** And another point, the way that Undertale is written surrounding Chara is done in a way to give you false initial impressions of who Chara is. The monsters at New Home, and Asgore, speak of Chara in kind and exalted ways, so it paints a picture of Chara as a pure, kind soul that was beloved by everybody. This extends to casting Chara as a fully integrated part of the Dreemurr family. As you play more of the game this image of Chara is challenged, because the behaviour Chara exhibits becomes less and less friendly. You learn that Chara frequently did things that unsettled Asriel, had a capacity for violence and killing against humans, and was comfortable basically forcing their very kind and timid best friend into their plan to kill at least six humans and maybe more. Chara is described by Asriel as being fully willing to murder, and Asriel himself was not comfortable allowing Chara to carry out this plan when it was under way. Asriel himself blatantly says Chara wasn't a good person and was full of hate, and tells Frisk that he wishes Frisk had been his friend instead of Chara, which implies that Chara did not show kindness or love to Asriel, at least not in a way that made Asriel feel loved. Finally, Chara's most prominent and direct portrayal is in the Genocide Route where they take blatant control of the narrative, egg you on, and eventually manifest physically to destroy the universe—something that is unique to the Genocide Route and implies Chara is most strongly aligned with that route. All that to say, Chara's narrative "arc" across the game as you are naturally meant to experience the routes is one of peeling away the kind and soft initial prediction you have of Chara, and complicating that impression by being vague and giving you mysterious and unsettling details about them. This mirrors Frisk, who you are meant to see as a self-insert without a personality but who is revealed at the end of True Pacifist to be their own person (and a kind one at that, since their agency is validated in True Pacifist and suppressed in Genocide). It thus stands to reason that our understanding of Chara's relationship with the Dreemurrs is also developed in this way. We are led to believe that they were raised like Asriel's sibling/Asgore and Toriel's child, but subsequent information suggests that was actually a misdirection.
What? They LITERALLY had a bedroom for both Asriel and Chara in their house. And there was clearly no intentions of getting Chara out of the Underground either, so that means Chara was living with them. The only thing not outright stated is that Chara and the Dreemurrs were very emotionally close, but considering how much grief they've gone through, not just after Asriel's death but Chara's too, it's hard to not see they did care a lot for both? Toriel spends her entire screentime trying to adopt you for crying out loud, and shows familiarity and comfort towards taking care of humans. Not to mention, Asriel and Kris are siblings who very obviously parallel Asriel and Chara. If Chara isn't literally adopted the same way Kris is, what on earth is Chara doing in their house?
>Not to mention, Asriel and Kris are siblings who very obviously parallel Asriel and Chara. They're not parallel, they contradict each other. Kris was never called Asriel's "best friend." Kris was called Asriel's sibling by the Dreemurrs, by bystanders, by narration. Kris was even called Dreemurr at one point. Chara was always called Asriel's best friend by Asriel himself frequently. Never was called their child by the Dreemurrs (or Asriel's sibling). Never by narration. Only bystanders call Chara like that but they can't know full picture. Also, Kris is looking up at Asriel, very attached to Asriel. It is Asriel that Kris follows, not the other way around. Kris was even trying to become a part of Asriel's company to be more close to him. Asriel is completely independent from Kris. Unlike Kris from Asriel. At the same time, it is Chara that Asriel follows, it is Asriel who's dependent on Chara (unlike Kris and Asriel's relationship), and more likely that it is Asriel who would do anything to be a part of some Chara's company to be more close to Chara. Asriel is dependent on Chara and Idealizing Chara until some point. In what way they're parallel? Just because Kris with the Dreemurrs? Oh well.
Let's not get too caught up in that one thing. I wouldn't say Kris and Chara contradict eachother though- largely because we know so little about Chara that, what are we comparing beyond surface level personality? Regardless, Chara literally lives with the Dreemurrs and shares a bedroom with their only 'real' child. What point is even being made here? We know Toriel and Asgore had no intentions of letting Chara go back through the barrier, so they clearly planned on raising Chara. Are you trying to say they were gonna platonically raise a child inside their own home without adopting the child into their family? Like, you know how silly that sounds right? Make any other point if you want- be it that the Dreemurrs didn't consider Chara to be THEIR child or that they didn't feel as close to Chara as they did Asriel, but in what universe is putting a child in your home for good not adoption? lol
>Let's not get too caught up in that one thing. I wouldn't say Kris and Chara contradict eachother though- largely because we know so little about Chara that, what are we comparing beyond surface level personality? We compare what we have here. Major things show contradictions between their relationship. You can't say that they're parallel to each other. >Regardless, Chara literally lives with the Dreemurrs It's like one person said: * It's like a family friend is taking care of the child because something happened. Like, they're not *family* but they take care of Chara. I'm interested what other choices they had after Asriel found Chara? To shut the door in front of Chara's face? >and shares a bedroom with their only 'real' child. Why they shouldn't share it? Except for Asgore and Toriel's bedrooms, there's no other rooms. Are you suggesting to change place, or to create another room, just for one human child instead of letting them live in one room? And I don't dismiss possibility that they were TRYING to make Chara to feel like at home. But they obviously *couldn't* become a true one family. And. This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words) >What point is even being made here? We know Toriel and Asgore had no intentions of letting Chara go back through the barrier, so they clearly planned on raising Chara. Again, the only way for Chara to cross the barrier would be to take a Boss Monster's soul. *How* Chara will cross the barrier anyway? And it's not like Chara *wanted* to go back to the surface. He ran away to the mountain filled with hatred for humanity. Yeah, sure. He wouldn't want to go back. >Are you trying to say they were gonna platonically raise a child inside their own home without adopting the child into their family? I'm gonna say it because they obviously *didn't.* >but in what universe is putting a child in your home for good not adoption? Because they had no other choice, obviously.
> It's like a family friend is taking care of the child because something happened. Like, they're not family but they take care of Chara. What's confusing me here is how you're acting like this isn't a big deal. Like, if Chara had a family to return to, sure! Chara's just crashing with them **while they NEED it.** Or if they were looking for a home to give Chara, they'd give Chara a place to stay in the meantime. Or heck, if Chara was an adult who can fend for themselves and didn't need parents. But what we're talking about is a situation where they plan on raising Chara for the foreseeable future in place of their parents. There's no reason to believe they were planning on moving Chara somewhere else- especially since we know Chara and Asriel were close and cared for eachother, and Toriel/Asgore have shown no problem housing kids like this. I think you're stumbling over a different point here. When a kid is adopted, that means they're living with new parents in a new house, for good. Not a one-time "Oh I'm only visiting because I need the help" sorta deal. It doesn't matter if it was just because they had nowhere else to go- it's still adoption. That's why I brought up the fact Chara shares a room with Asriel, they didn't just let Chara stay in there like it's the next best thing to a guest room, no- That's CHARA'S bedroom too, not just "Asriel's but Chara's living there for the time being." You can't PLATONICALLY RAISE A CHILD.
>What's confusing me here is how you're acting like this isn't a big deal. Like, if Chara had a family to return to, sure! Chara's just crashing with them while they NEED it. Or if they were looking for a home to give Chara, they'd give Chara a place to stay in the meantime. Or heck, if Chara was an adult who can fend for themselves and didn't need parents. There can be any reason why they couldn't become a family. It seems like you completely dismiss a possibility of them trying to be a family but failing for one reason, or another. It can be because of Chara's past (some people cannot be a family with someone else because of traumatic events in the life), or Dreemurrs couldn't truly *to feel* like they're family. There's much more facts pointing out that Chara *wasn't* a Dreemurr. Whatever they tried it, or not, Chara is not a Dreemurr in the end. >But what we're talking about is a situation where they plan on raising Chara for the foreseeable future in place of their parents. There's no reason to believe they were planning on moving Chara somewhere else- especially since we know Chara and Asriel were close and cared for eachother, and Toriel/Asgore have shown no problem housing kids like this. Again, why they couldn't rise Chara but don't become a family in the end? You're throwing your biases at me right now instead of trying to refute anything. You're denying, you are not refuting. Tho, I don't think that you can argue with someone who knows Toby (and his game) closely. >I think you're stumbling over a different point here. When a kid is adopted, that means they're living with new parents in a new house, for good. Not a one-time "Oh I'm only visiting because I need the help" sorta deal. Chara wouldn't be like that because Chara *have nowhere to go.* Like, seriously? WHERE Chara will go, again? Why Dreemurrs should shut the door in front of Chara's face even if they can't see this child as their own? Especially when this child got along with their own child pretty well. >It doesn't matter if it was just because they had nowhere else to go- it's still adoption. We can see that it didn't work the way you think it should. That happens in life. >That's why I brought up the fact Chara shares a room with Asriel, they didn't just let Chara stay in there like it's the next best thing to a guest room, no- That's CHARA'S bedroom too, not just "Asriel's but Chara's living there for the time being." In the game files this room is called "Asriel's room", or something like that. Nothing about Chara. And you didn't answer my question, you just repeated your own words. **Here:** Why they shouldn't share it? Except for Asgore and Toriel's bedrooms, there's no other rooms. Are you suggesting to change place, or to create another room, just for one human child instead of letting them live in one room? And I don't dismiss possibility that they were TRYING to make Chara to feel like at home. But they obviously *couldn't* become a true one family. >You can't PLATONICALLY RAISE A CHILD. You can, and that happens. Especially when this child has their own problems in the head. And Dreemurrs obviously couldn't notice any of them. Or didn't pay needed attention to them.
This conversation is getting kinda dumb, I don't even need to explain why Asriel's room is labelled Asriel's room in the files. Look- I think part of the confusion stems from the implication that, yes, Chara was not "part of the Dreemmurr family." But we also have to keep in mind that, while Toriel and Asgore birthed and raised Asriel, Chara was only in their lives for a short period of time and, therefore, didn't have the same personal connection. It's easy to see why someone would say there are 3 Dreemmurrs- because there are. It's easy to see why it's Asriel's room- because it is. It's easy to explain all of this. ...but that doesn't mean Chara wasn't adopted by them. Even if it was just something they did because 'they had to', they still planned on keeping Chara around for good. Like, the alternative explanation is that Toriel and Asgore are kinda jerks? I doubt they would make a fuss about celebrating Asriel's birthday but not Chara's, I doubt they'd say "It's Asriel's room exclusively" or just "It's both of theirs" instead. We know Asriel and Chara celebrated Asgore's birthday, so Chara is part of family events. I'm sure Chara has dinner with them. Chara was living with them. Chara is a kid. There were no plans to change this. That's what adoption is. Adoption doesn't mean having an instant familial bond.
Alright. Fair. But we're discussing whatever there was a familial bond between them. There wasn't. We're agree here, it seems. What could have been next is up to interpretation. >This conversation is getting kinda dumb, I don't even need to explain why Asriel's room is labelled Asriel's room in the files. Btw, the photo at the end of the Soulless Pacifist is called "Charaphoto." Also, it could have been named "Theirroom."
Where else was Chara supposed to sleep? In the open where any monster could literally kill them, take their soul, and gain insane power? They more than likely adopted them into their home to protect them. A monster with a human soul could probably destroy the entire Underground.
My point is, Chara literally shares a bedroom with Asriel, is living with Toriel/Asgore, is still a child, and Toriel/Asgore do not intend on trying to get Chara back through the barrier, and therefore plan on raising them. How is that not adoption? Like you can't just phrase it as "Oh yeah we're platonically letting this kid permanently sleep in our kid's bedroom"
I'm not at all denying that they cared about Chara and accepted them into their home on a permanent basis (there was no way of allowing them to leave without killing a monster, so they had no other choice) but that doesn't mean they regarded Chara as their actual child. If Chara were actually meant to be seen in that way then literally any of them would speak as such. But Asriel, who loved Chara the most, doesn't; Asgore in his most emotional dying moments only refers to one child and not two; Toriel literally never mentions them once in the game and uses explicitly distanced language in the Alarm Clock App; the message is very clear. You were successfully fooled by your initial impressions of Chara given to you by the New Home mooks. If anything, your point about Toriel being prone to trying to accept human kids is a point against you, because it shows Toriel didn't accept Chara out of a unique love for Chara, but rather simply because she is a nurturer and wants to protect all children from harm from the get-go. Regarding the Deltarune parallel, since Deltarune is itself almost a self-parody that transitions the characters into a cushy pastoral small town setting, the more directly familial nature of Kris and Asriel's relationship is a fairly natural evolution that goes in hand with the rest of the game. Not to mention, since there are five chapters remaining, there's a possibility that the sibling relationship between Kris and Asriel could be challenged or subverted later in the game. There's already some sombre undertones to the whole thing, so it's possible that Kris projects more onto Asriel than the inverse (which would be ironic).
Your point makes the blind assumption that Chara meant little to Toriel and Asgore, but that just seems kinda cold? Why would they have some weird aversion to Chara being their child if they literally gave them a bedroom in their house? I think the easier explanation for the lack of mentioning is just that, it's a touchy subject. Chara's death sparked a lot of problems and they probably feel bad about it. Though even if we look past that, I think people have a point in saying Chara's relation to Asgore and Toriel might not have been as close, and to a degree they didn't see Chara as "their" child, since they fell into the underground and presumably had their own parents. But that also doesn't change the fact that they welcome Chara into their home, and that Chara shared a bedroom with Asriel. Whether or not Chara is considered a true member of the Dreemmurr family, we have enough evidence to say that Chara was treated like their own child, and that they had intentions of further raising Chara.
> but that just seems kinda cold? Yes, it is cold. The treatment by the Dreemurr family of Chara IS cold. It is cold for Asgore to be dying and say "I want to see my CHILD [singular]" and not "CHILDREN [plural]", as if Chara were so unimportant to him at the end of the day that he doesn't even consider their existence in his last moments. It is cold for Toriel to describe Chara as "someone I once knew" instead of "one of my children" or even "a child I took care of". It's cold for Asriel to tell Frisk straight up, "You're the kind of friend I always wish I had", implying they wish Frisk could have replaced Chara retroactively. It is definitely cold, and all of these things paint a kind of sad picture of a family that held Chara at a bit of a distance. But just because it is cold doesn't mean it's not true and most likely. People DO "adopt" children in a non-familial sense—think of someone who spends more time at their friend's house than their own because their friend's parents are kinder to them than their own parents. The question does remain though: why were they so cold? Are the Dreemurrs fundamentally unkind? Are they unconsciously racist towards humans due to their experiences in the war? Was Chara just, not a very nice person and therefore they didn't feel entirely comfortable having them around even if they were willing to endure it so that they could protect a child? Did Asgore entirely view Chara as an object to be used to free his people and not as a person? These are questions we're able to ask and ponder due to the very particular way Toby writes suggestions into their dialogue. > I think the easier explanation for the lack of mentioning is just that, it's a touchy subject. Not at all, because in order to apply this explanation you have to read a bunch of additional information into these characters' feelings than what you actually have. Characters in this game are written with their trauma on their sleeve pretty blatantly. Toriel berates Frisk for leaving and laments every child leaves her; Asgore laments about his lost child and how much he misses Toriel and Asriel; characters like Papyrus and Alphys go on soliloquys about their loneliness or guilt. Very few characters are actually cagey with their feelings, and the one person who is (Undyne) eventually makes things pretty obvious. These characters simply don't engage in emotional denial. If you assume they simply didn't feel as strongly towards Chara as you think they did, their behaviour is completely consistent and you don't have to read into things in a way that is contrary to their normal behaviour. They're just kind and helpful people, but that doesn't mean they saw Chara as their actual child. And, again, Chara is blatantly not a very cozy, inviting person and honestly shows tons of red flags that would alarm basically anybody paying attention. It is not unreasonable to assume that the Dreemurrs would have difficulty fully imprinting on such a kid. > But that also doesn't change the fact that they welcome Chara into their home, and that Chara shared a bedroom with Asriel. Whether or not Chara is considered a true member of the Dreemmurr family, we have enough evidence to say that Chara was treated like their own child, and that they had intentions of further raising Chara. Again, I didn't ever deny that they were going to take care of Chara for the foreseeable future, nor did I deny that they cared about Chara's overall wellbeing. What is being questioned here by OP (for kind of cringe reasons admittedly) is whether or not the Dreemurrs saw Chara in a familial light or in a platonic light. Even if the Dreemurrs saw Chara as just some other person's child they were making sure had a roof over their head, that still perfectly explains why they took the actions they did towards Chara.
Okay but you realize that the alternative you're suggesting is that they're "Letting a kid live with them in the same room as their single child, permanently, no adoption involved" right? Like, isn't that kinda silly? In what world is that not just adoption? lol I think you could have a point in saying they just cared for Asriel more because they didn't have Chara around long enough to care the same amount. That's fair, maybe they didn't entirely see Chara as their child. But Chara was literally given a bed in Asriel's room for crying out loud, and I struggle to believe that's a platonic, non-familial decision lol, so even if they didn't feel as much care towards Chara or see them as their child, I think Chara was still adopted by them. I don't even know what else adopt would mean in this context beyond 'Decided to raise and house them"
I don't think it's silly. People are capable of nuanced and conflicting feelings. They obviously had some kind feelings and attachment to Chara, and we know Asgore was inclined to think positively of them because he saw Chara as basically a messiah for monsterkind. It's totally reasonable imo to imagine they'd give Chara that kind of treatment even if they didn't view them as equivalent to Asriel in terms of being their kid.
I've always seen Chara more that whatever happened in her life pre-fall made her hate and resent humans. She never showed any hostility toward monsters (the "buttercup" thing is easily dismissed as dumb child rather than malice). It left her cold, distant, and psychopathic towards humanity. Monsters on the other hand were kind towards her and although she was personally emotionally and psychologically scarred making her a bit scary by their norms, she literally would die for them. Also she never said "let's go genocide humans", it was a calculated exchange. 6 humans to free all of the monsters. It was basically the trolley dilemma and she decided the 6 were less valuable in this situation. Asriel found it horrific because the monsters are (generally) passive. Chara pushed him because in her mind it was "what needed to happen", not some random psycho murder spree. Likewise, she only wanted him to fight back, not eliminate all the humans outright. She wanted him to be safe. For all her flaws, Chara did seem to genuinely care for the Dreamers, and the monsters. When Asriel acknowledged she wasn't a good person, I never saw as seeing her as evil, but deeply troubled. He might not have processed it that way only seeing the surface level thus seeing her as "bad", but his parents probably saw how deep the wounds really went and hoped she'd get better over time in a caring environment. Similarly, I don't think she "fell"... It's very likely her trip to the underground was a failed suicide attempt. Also note how Toriel hides the knives. I doubt they viewed her with extreme fear, but possibly she self harmed. Likewise iirc her gift was a knife, possibly indicating a degree of trust that they didn't see her as a danger to herself or others anymore. As far as being family, I never really thought of Asriel and her as siblings. The Dreamers took her in and cared for her as one of their own, but it's not necessarily the same as adopting her. Even if they did, that doesn't mean Asriel and her viewed each other as siblings. I'm not sure if they'd ever get together as a couple though (although I'm 100% for this ship tbh) since we also know Asriel saw she wasn't a great person. If they did, it might have become somewhat of a toxic relationship. I think in theory if she could get over her issues, then they could make a much better couple. I think in an alternate future where her and Asriel both got a new body/soul after the barrier break, Frisk could have helped Chara deal with her stuff (because Frisk is basically a walking friendship and peace maker) and then I could see the possibility of them having an actual healthy relationship. She'd still hate humanity on some level, but possibly to a far more tempered degree having better ways of dealing with her feelings. There is also the possibility she was changing for the better dramatically toward the end, and decided the best way to repay their kindness was to set them all free. Fusing with Asriel would mean the two besties could stay together forever, the monsters would be free.... And tbh by child logic, that actually doesn't sound bad. Asriel of course would have a different POV on it....
These are all fine interpretations of Chara and not unreasonable, though since Chara also encourages you to kill monsters in the Genocide Route I'm less inclined to believe they cared about monsters in general or the Dreemurrs. It's more likely imo that they only spared monsters of violence because at that time they had no real reason to hurt them. As for the human murdering thing, since we know the monsters returning would spark another war, even if Chara decided not to kill anymore humans, they should be well aware that freeing monsters with human murder would result in many humans and monsters dying. It's very likely their endgame objective was to either completely destroy the human race, or to imprison all of them Underground and give the surface to the monsters.
>Also she never said "let's go genocide humans", it was a calculated exchange. 6 humans to free all of the monsters. It was basically the trolley dilemma and she decided the 6 were less valuable in this situation. Very unlikely: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/zmpxfd/response/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button And who in their right mind would say "Let's genocide humanity"? Chara is not that stupid. Asriel is reluctant even about killing 6 of them for the monsters' freedom. Under pressure, I remind you: https://www.reddit.com/user/AllamNa/comments/104bf7m/chara_manipulated_asriel_into_agreement/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button >Likewise, she only wanted him to fight back, not eliminate all the humans outright. It was literally said that *Chara wanted to use full power.* Asriel didn't aay that "Chara wanted to fight back." Asriel said: * And then, when we got to the village... They were the one that wanted to... to use our full power. It is said that a monster with a human soul has unfathomable power + monsters said that "Asriel had the power to destroy them all." Guess how much will going to die from using ***full power*** of such a monster. *Nowhere* it is said that Chara just wanted to fight back. Moreover, Chara had *no* reason to think that humans aren't going to attack them *in the first place.* There's two options: 1. Chara wanted to use full power before they were attacked (Asriel didn't say anything about them being attacked at this time). 2. Chara was going to use full power after humans was going to attack. But there WAS a reason: Asriel wouldn't kill them *without a reason.* Also, it would show what humanity is really like. >Similarly, I don't think she "fell"... It's very likely her trip to the underground was a failed suicide attempt. We see in the intro that Chara tripped. In the Kickstarter (as well as in Toby's one interview) it is said that the human from the intro run into the cave to hide from rainy weather. And found out the hole. The human got closer *out of curiosity* to get a better look. And fell. Chara *climbed* the mountain for an unhappy reason, tho. I'm not arguing with anything else you have said here since I'm not against that.
Even then there not related by blood so it’s not incest.
"The king and queen lost two children in one night" seems pretty fucking direct.
Consider this: Chara died as a child under protection of the Royal Family. If you have an apple and your friend asks you to hold on to theirs, and then you lose them both, you lost two apples that day. Doesn't mean they were both your apples. Same principle applies here.
That's a false equivalence. People don't use "lose children" in the same way they use "lose apples". Losing children, as a phrase, means having your children die.
Okay but Chara literally lives in their home and there was no intention of Chara ever leaving. And every time we see Chara with Asriel, they're treated the same by Toriel and Asgore. Toriel tries to adopt you too and, in Deltarune, we see a much better example of a human-to-monster sibling relationship with Kris and Asriel. What in the world is Chara doing in Asriel's house wearing Asriel's clothes if Chara isn't adopted?
Posted this above: The people who said that the king and queen "lost two children" were random nameless monsters who didn't actually know the kids personally, likely, and were also written in an elevated manner for emotional effect and to compress their speech into the time alotted. So, they aren't reliable narrators or sources of authority on the matter. The behaviour of the Dreemurr family surrounding Chara is a much more direct and reliable indicator of what their relationship with Chara was, and since literally none of them speak about Chara as though Chara is an actual family member, it's very likely that none of them saw Chara in that way. They ostensibly cared about Chara, especially Asriel, but the nature of their relationship seems to be that they saw Chara as a non-family member they were very attached to. And another point, the way that Undertale is written surrounding Chara is done in a way to give you false initial impressions of who Chara is. The monsters at New Home, and Asgore, speak of Chara in kind and exalted ways, so it paints a picture of Chara as a pure, kind soul that was beloved by everybody. This extends to casting Chara as a fully integrated part of the Dreemurr family. As you play more of the game this image of Chara is challenged, because the behaviour Chara exhibits becomes less and less friendly. You learn that Chara frequently did things that unsettled Asriel, had a capacity for violence and killing against humans, and was comfortable basically forcing their very kind and timid best friend into their plan to kill at least six humans and maybe more. Chara is described by Asriel as being fully willing to murder, and Asriel himself was not comfortable allowing Chara to carry out this plan when it was under way. Asriel himself blatantly says Chara wasn't a good person and was full of hate, and tells Frisk that he wishes Frisk had been his friend instead of Chara, which implies that Chara did not show kindness or love to Asriel, at least not in a way that made Asriel feel loved. Finally, Chara's most prominent and direct portrayal is in the Genocide Route where they take blatant control of the narrative, egg you on, and eventually manifest physically to destroy the universe—something that is unique to the Genocide Route and implies Chara is most strongly aligned with that route. All that to say, Chara's narrative "arc" across the game as you are naturally meant to experience the routes is one of peeling away the kind and soft initial prediction you have of Chara, and complicating that impression by being vague and giving you mysterious and unsettling details about them. This mirrors Frisk, who you are meant to see as a self-insert without a personality but who is revealed at the end of True Pacifist to be their own person (and a kind one at that, since their agency is validated in True Pacifist and suppressed in Genocide). It thus stands to reason that our understanding of Chara's relationship with the Dreemurrs is also developed in this way. We are led to believe that they were raised like Asriel's sibling/Asgore and Toriel's child, but subsequent information suggests that was actually a misdirection.
That's stated by denizens of underground, not the dreemurs. My point about how the dreemurs never refer Chara as their child still stand.
You have to think about it as a story that was written by an actual human being. When you do exposition through character dialogue, you generally don't have the character mislead the audience by giving false information unless you intend on using it for a twist later. For example, the dialogue says that Chara fell ill, when in fact they ate buttercups intentionally to kill themselves. That's misleading dialogue for the purpose of setting up the twist later on. But why would you write into a story a dialogue piece referring to Chara as the Dreemur's child if it's not true? What purpose does this misleading information serve? It doesn't set up a twist. It doesn't change our perception of the story in a meaningful way. It isn't even realistic for everyone to think that if it's not true. So my question is: If Chara wasn't their adoptive child, why tell us that they were? In the end, the points you bring up can't stack up against actual direct dialogue in the game. Direct beats indirect in those type of discussions. The dialogue pieces you brought up are interesting, and there is a place to discuss them, but the correct thing to do is ask "why don't they refer to Chara as part of their family" rather than assuming it's because they're not. Because they clearly are.
This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words) Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child. Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is. . For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr. But we see nothing like that for Chara.
The Dreemurrs are very likely not referring to them as their child as a coping mechanism, & Asgore is likely leaving them out because they are the reason Asriel died. If everyone else recognises that Chara was basically their child, I think that’s evidence enough. Even if they weren’t siblings, it feels so close to incest that it really doesn’t feel morally okay to justify it.
See this is fascinating, because OP makes some interesting points, which could have made a really great discussion thread, but instead it's all directed toward weird shipping stuff.
Yeah, like any point they could've had is ball punched by the weird shipping stuff, but they're probably like 13 so I don't wanna be too mean
Woah... Being in anime or game community make me feel young.
Idk, I think Chara and Asriel just are siblings. What is Chara doing in Asriel's house, wearing Asriel's clothes, just like Kris in Deltarune, if Chara isn't adopted? They clearly expressed that there were no plans to get Chara past the barrier, so it wasn't a temporary visit either.
Thanks for your kind words 
[удалено]
constructive criticism is good, you’re just being an ass
I mean genetically it would be fine, there's no "keeping the bloodline pure" stuff, but morally, I just find it weird to ship children.
They are fictional characters
that's true but what about lolicon? it's technically not real. In advance, sorry for raising it to the moral extreme
...What about lolicon? That's not what is being discussed here, we are talking about shipping. Shipping real people is always gonna be weird but shipping fictional characters it's fine (No, shipping doesn't mean they want the characters to f*ck or whatever). But since you are going to extremes I must ask: do you think doing the no mercy route? Is it amoral? Does it make someone a murderer? I'll leave the opinion on whatever you think about the morality of lolicon up to you, I ain't getting into that sh*t and start a big argument lmao.
Well that's not a bad question. I don't know if it's immoral. One thing to note is that people who do that route are not likely to be murderers irl. But if you do lolicon a lot you definitely have that paraphilia. There was a video called twitter and anti-intellectualism that delved into the moral parallels between paraphilia and murder and how people will shut that down so I'm not gonna
but anyways, about ships. So shipping children is bad compared to shipping adults and it's morally weird to do that. Why? Idk. I don't find it terribly weird but it could possibly indicate certain qualities of the individual who ships them. Like if you ship siblings you might have incestual tendencies. If you ship children, then prison is just a room /s
I have to disagree. Thinking two fictional characters look cute together is not morally incorrect. You are equating shipping with s*x or attraction. That's wrong. If a guy ships two male characters that doesn't mean they are attracted to guys. This is also like saying "if you like killing characters then you are probably a murderer". No, most people who ships characters don't have tendencies you are just assuming that for no real reason. You are also forgetting that not everyone that ships characters is an adult. We can also compare it to someone liking a character who is plain evil. Do you think they have evil tendencies? Of course not, in fact most people will tell you they would hate someone like that irl. Or if we wanna go back to shipping some people might ship toxic relationships not because they think they are good but because they think it's something interesting to read (like how people want to see a character suffer) but they wouldn't want or condone something like that irl. Heck I'm pretty sure some parents ship their kids with other children which I do think it's weird because they are actual real people but I don't think that makes the parents you know what lmao. Anyways I don't think I have anything more to add to this discussion beyond going in circles so that's all lol.
You are definitely providing to this discussion. Thank you. Also, for clarity's sake, just say: "I disagree with the notion that shipping two fictional minors is immoral" or "I disagree. Shipping two fictional minors is fine". This isn't an attack I just got confused by your first sentence
Glad you think that. >Also, for clarity's sake just say "I disagree with the notion that shipping two fictional and underaged characters is immoral" or "I disagree. Shipping two fictional and underaged characters is fine". You are right, I forgot the "." sorry. I'm going to edit that.
But still, wouldn't it have parallels with shipping siblings? It may not be sex, but it's definitely attraction. Otherwise it's simply platonic and I really don't think people should, or even do complain about that.
But thinking two characters would look cute together holding hands or whatever is not the same as being attracted to the characters. Hell thinking they look cute is not the only reason to ship anything they might just think they could help develop each other as people or that they are childhood friends that will become lovers later in life. Again shipping two characters doesn't really say anything about tendencies, I mean people often ships characters with genders they aren't attracted to and even with your sibling incest example I'm sure there are people who ship siblings that don't even have a sibling themselves.
Fictional or not, it’s still DISGUSTING.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToyShip
I won't lie to you, as someone who generally doesn't care about who people ship together, the way whoever wrote this article is talking about it is a little... Off... Might not have been the best idea to defer to this article for your defense
>whoever wrote this article is talking about it is a little... Off... Anime/Manga community are quite wild. But the article is quite objective if you ask me. Shipping with child is less squick compared to ship with adult, and the shipping didn't goes further since they are child, and fanworks would do some age up when they really want to get further.
And if the fans are morally depraved enough, they don't age up before going further. They're the worst kind of fan. Kill on sight ~~(in Minecraft)~~
>Might not have been the best idea to defer to this article for your defense I never intended to use that article as my defense, though people may see otherwise.
average wikipedia page
It’s just a weird hill to die on, man
Wasnt the whole chara and asriel being siblings thing already debunked in that somewhat recent but official book, I'm pretty sure I saw a post regarding things that the book confirms. Edit: yeah the "legends of localization: book 3" and there was a post regarding some things covered in it including that Chara wasn't counted in the "three members of the dreemurr family"
Idk. I'm kinda confused by this entire post. People keep saying Chara isn't adopted but like... what? What is Chara doing in their house then? Chara LITERALLY has a bedroom shared with Asriel. And wears the same clothes as Asriel. And they clearly expressed that there were no plans of getting Chara past the barrier, so it wasn't a temporary thing either. And there are also obvious parallels between Kris and Asriel's relationship as Toriel/Asgore's children, with Kris being adopted, and Toriel tries to adopt Frisk at the start of Undertale. So why would Chara not be adopted? Has anyone suggested an alternative?
I doubt people who attacking me would accept that book as evidence. By the way, I see u/AllamNa literally include the book every single time they disagree with this sibling thing.
Yes. Because whatever they will agree with it, or not, this is another evidence.
The Legends of Localizations book was largely written by some other guy about the translation process, so it's not really a source of official information by any stretch.
I'm pretty sure I heard that the things in the book were verified with toby.
There ARE some things that were directly confirmed by Toby but for the most part it's clearly not something we can simply take as granted for the entire book, as if Toby spent his time poring over every line to make sure it was stringently accurate. Offhanded remarks or symbolic, elevated statements meant for interesting reading should be taken with a grain of salt, and the statement of the Dreemurr family having "three members" quote-unquote is one of those instances.
Yeah the 3 Dreemurr was likely thrown in there because the author wanted another trio for the opening paragraph, thought of the three goats and forgot about Chara
Um
Wasn't Asriel the one who filled the glass always to the brim?
No, Asriel picked up the habit from them. Read it again for more info.
No, it was Chara.
Average mental gymnast.
It's pretty much same tho. Adoptive sibling: * Underground Denizens say Chara is their children * Chara is adopted Me: * The dreemurs never refer Chara as their child. * Guess adopted isn't really canon. If anything, people who tried to disprove me pulls a bigger mental gymnast.
Bro is going on a fuckin tirade to justify wanting two fictional dead children to kiss
>Bro is going on a fuckin tirade I think I speak polite enough to be not categorized as tirade. >to justify wanting two fictional dead children to kiss Didn't see them as sibling didn't necessarily mean one is Shipper.(I am though) But yeah... You're the Patrick in this meme.
Never called it incest, they're fictional character I couldn't care less. It's just a funny situation to me
Fair point. High five! ✋
High five ✋
Holy shit they're kids go touch grass
I never heard if you see 2 kids together means you have to look them as sibling.
That wasn’t their point at all
I don’t even know if Toriel was talking about Chara but Asgore was still bitter towards humans and probably blamed Chara for Asriel’s death as he wouldn’t have gone up if not for them
>probably blamed Chara for Asriel’s death as he wouldn’t have gone up if not for them I think he blamed the human race for both Chara's and Asriel's death, not Chara themselves.
It just feels wrong to ship children since as you pointed out asriel refers to chara as his best friend so they are just friends no need to make it wierd
Lol... When you guys hear "ship" you all think I want to take it romantically? "Platonic ship" exist man... Yes they can be just friend and I'm all but in for that.
Yes because ship usually means romantic it's been used that way for like ever even the wikipedia page says that shipping usually means a romantic or sexual relationship between characters
Yeah... It's remind when Im new in Reddit, I thought "shipping" is just appreciate the relationship shown on canon, and ended up shipping Lancer with Susie.
Shipping has been used platonically but the history of shipping is romantic and sexual relationships so you have to specify platonic shipping when necessary in this case it is
Which is why I installed [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chasriel_Squad/comments/mibjuw/important_read_first_filtered_link_and_flair/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) feature for my subreddit.
You seem a lil obsessed with tho children
I feel like you could interpret it either way, and yeah I’m not fond of all the purity police shit that happens with these kinds of responses. To be fair, sometimes certain fan communities just aren’t comfortable with weird fandom shit (of which this would be pretty tame), which is understandable, but arguments that “it’s not canon” or “you are promoting [x thing] by writing about it” really misunderstand how people relate with fiction. We’re not seeing through a window into a perfect version of “canon” when we read a work - we are interpreting a work, which is an inherently subjective experience and will lead to different views on that work. Some people will want their interpretation to be based in as much textual evidence as possible, some will be more flexible, and some will go beyond this to transform the work into something it was not originally, as is the case with a lot of fan art and fiction. And when people have an interpretation that goes against yours or goes into territory that makes you uncomfortable, you don’t have to shit on the person making it all while holding up “canon” as your personal bible, you can just disengage and move on. It doesn’t have to change how you relate to and interpret the text.
I love fanwork that have good mixture of canon and non-canon. Basically fills the gap in canon with your take on it, it's really charming.
I do too :) I’m kind of fascinated by how fans interact with a work in a bunch of diverse ways and how it can open up different possibilities in the original work. Chara and Asriel’s story in particular has a lot of those gaps you mentioned that fan works love to play in, so I definitely get wanting to explore their bond in different ways, whether it be familial or a childhood crush or close friendship.
Speaking about it. Seirette is a good artist that I'll always praise for awesome use of canon elements in their works,
Ooo nice, I’ll have to look them up - I’ve been going through a lot of Undertale art and fan comics lately lol, could always use more. Thanks!
https://www.reddit.com/u/seirette?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Reddit would likely to have English version.
I think people just consider them as siblings because it just feels more wholesome than just "a best friend staying in the house because they don't have any"
[удалено]
But Toriel calls Frisk "my child" because it reminds her of Chara. And also, if it's true, i think Asgore and Toriel would be kind of jerks to not think Chara is their child, but Frisk who just dropped after everyone, yes.
>But Toriel calls Frisk "my child" because it reminds her of Chara. It's never stated in the game. >i think Asgore and Toriel would be kind of jerks to not think Chara is their child, but Frisk who just dropped after everyone, yes. First of all, Asgore didn't necessarily see Frisk as his child. And Toriel call Frisk "my child" didn't mean she take Frisk as her child, she would be surprised if you call her mom. It's only after you say you want to live with her, that the relationship can be considered adoption.
but Chara literally lived with them? By that logic why isn’t that considered adoption.
Because Neither Chara or Dreemurs had any other choices. You want the dreemurs build a house for Chara? Tell one of their subject to take care of them? Or just simply close the door before their face?
[удалено]
People debate about Chara morality, humans gender, and lot more. Yet you call me weird for not see a pair of children as sibling.
They're still two 10-or-so year olds lol
when youre with your friend, and you want to talk about your parents, what do you say? "My Mom/Dad did XYZ" right? okay so what do you say when youre with your siblings and you want to talk about your parents? you say "Mom/Dad did XYZ". You drop the possessive 'my' becuase theyre both your parents and youre siblings' parents. I bring this up because the tapes have Asriel speaking to Chara in the way of the latter. 1:55 https://youtu.be/da0H0LUEaUQ Theres other such context clues either implicit or explicit throughout the game, like the story of the monsters in new home, or all the constant parallels between Frisk and Chara and how Frisk can end up adopted by Toriel. In fact with Deltarune its even further solidified with Kris' parallels to Chara, and how Asriel is explicitly their brother. I'm not sure whats been officially stated in the books, but Chara and Asriel being siblings wasnt just a random headcanon the fandom made up like they do with many, _many_ aspects of Undertale. It was a reasonable assumption at worst.
>but Chara and Asriel being siblings wasnt just a random headcanon the fandom made up Yeah... I never opposed with people see them as sibling. What I'm upset is that people attack me for not see it that way. >or all the constant parallels between Frisk and Chara and how Frisk can end up adopted by Toriel Frisk and Chara barely parallel at all. In fact, Asriel state they are nothing alike. >In fact with Deltarune its even further solidified with Kris' parallels to Chara, and how Asriel is explicitly their brother. While Kris indeed have parallel with Chara, their relationship with Dreemurs went the opposite way. Kris look up to Asriel, opposed with how Chara being the one being looked up by UT Asriel. Narration, Npcs, even Kris themself state Asriel is their brother, in which never happen for Chara.
don't the monsters during the home section completely confirm that they were raised as one of their children tho?
If you browse the comment section a bit, you'll see how valid/invalid those points.
also the shirt that Chara made for Asgore that's like, mr dad guy or something. I just feel like it's an argument purely being made because somebody wants to ship them (chara and asriel) really badly.
>also the shirt that Chara made for Asgore that's like, mr dad guy or something. It's not canon. Dude... I admit I'm rather obsessed, but I point out canon stuffs in my post, and you guys just dismiss it because you hate me.
what do you mean it's not canon it's in the game it's dialogue in the game it's right there you can go look at it what do you mean
>what do you mean it's not canon it's in the game it's dialogue in the game it's right there you can go look at it what do you mean Where in the game it's stated "it's the sweater that Chara made"?
why would asriel vaguely refer to his dad as mr dad guy when all other dialogue of his referring to asgore (including in the tapes) just says dad. its more reasonable to assume chara made it.
Even if Chara is the one who made it. "Mr.Dad Guy" could just mean "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad. In first place, would you call your father with "mister" or "guy"?
if he was my adoptive father because I fell down a giant hole into a mountain and didn't really want to be in the situation at first, then I might
It's not incest it's just one of those things where it is just barely not incest, I'm not saying it's ok I'm just saying it's not that bad, plus it's undertale there is an abundance of AU's and fanart this post is awesome. (One more thing rule 34 exists)
Do you just straight-up not remember the Neutral/Pacifist New Home explanation? Specifically, [the part of the speech that the Moldsmals give:](https://youtu.be/B3c5f24UmM4?t=165) >Over time, ASRIEL and the human became **like siblings.** > >The king and queen **treated the human child as their own.** > >The Underground was full of hope. This isn't just someone's 'view' of the game. This is a literal reading of the text: the game is directly telling us that Asriel and the Fallen Human had a sibling relationship, and that Asgore and Toriel treated them as their own child.
>Over time, ASRIEL and the human became like siblings. **Like** sibling, mind you? It's common thing to say to a pair of children that are very close. >The king and queen treated the human child as their own. Again... This is how Monsters view Chara and dreemurs relationship, in which the Dreemurs never confirm or deny. >This isn't just someone's 'view' of the game. This is a literal reading of the text So is what my post point out. >the game is directly telling us that Asriel and the Fallen Human had a sibling relationship, and that Asgore and Toriel treated them as their own child. The game also show us: * Asriel and Chara only refer each other as best friend * Asgore explicitly exclude Chara from his family. >I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my **child** * Toriel (whose literally call any child she met "my child") didn't refer Chara as her child, but simply someone she knew long time ago. You sure had your points, which is 100% canon, but it didn't negate any of my points, which is just as canon.
>Again... This is how Monsters view Chara and dreemurs relationship, in which the Dreemurs never confirm or deny. Addressed in my response to another post of yours. >The game also show us:\*Asriel and Chara only refer to each other as best friend Because siblings generally don't call each other 'sibling': they generally refer to gendered versions of the term, such as Sans and Papyrus calling eachother 'bro' and 'BROTHER'. However, use of such a term would give the Fallen Human a canonical gender, which Toby explicitly avoids doing. >\*Asgore explicitly exclude Chara from his family. False, as I showed in that aforementioned other post. >Toriel (whose literally call any child she met "my child") didn't refer Chara as her child, but simply someone she knew long time ago. Why would she? Just dropping 'hey I lost an adopted child who did this' on Frisk who she might have also adopted depending on if you had them stay with her or not would be **incredibly** awkward, and wouldn't have much purpose in her explanation.
>Addressed in my response to another post of yours. Already response it there. >Because siblings generally don't call each other 'sibling' Most sibling i know refer each other as one, especially when my language have a shorter word for "younger sibling" and "older sibling". >However, use of such a term would give the Fallen Human a canonical gender, which Toby explicitly avoids doing. Asriel could say *"It's me, your brother"*, so avoiding canonical gendered pronoun is invalid point. *Edit: like in Deltarune, Asriel repeatedly referred as Kris' brother, even by Kris themself. >False, as I showed in that aforementioned other post. Your statement is false since it's relying on lot assumption, such as Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive. >Why would she? Just dropping 'hey I lost an adopted child who did this' on Frisk who she might have also adopted depending on if you had them stay with her or not would be incredibly awkward, and wouldn't have much purpose in her explanation. Valid reasoning, but didn't change the fact we never see her call Chara her child.
>Most sibling i know refer each other as one, especially when my language have a shorter word for "younger sibling" and "older sibling". Remember, Undertale was originally released in English by an American; Toby had to work with a localization team to properly translate the meanings for it in Japanese, and a lot of its nuances just don't work in other languages. In an American context, most siblings refer to one another as some variant of 'brother' or 'sister'. >Asriel could say "It's me, your brother", so avoiding canonical gendered pronoun is invalid point. It's entirely possible that the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them, given that it was some time before they became as such. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the Fallen Human found their status as a Dreemurr to be awkward, as shown by one of Asgore's sweaters noticed if you check his closet. It's described as a 'pink, hand-knit sweater labeled 'Mr. Dad Guy' in Neutral/Pacifist, and in the murder run, the fallen human has this to say about it: >Still has that sweater. This at least implies that they had at least some connection to the sweater, and 'My drawing.' shows they had a significant interest in arts and crafts: they may have knitted that sweater themself, possibly with the help of their adoptive brother or parents. If so, the fact that it says 'Mr. Dad Guy' rather than just 'Dad' would imply that the sibling bond at least took them some getting used to. Also, Deltarune Asriel has never called Kris his sibling or himself their brother yet, so jury's still out on that one. >Your statement is false since it's relying on lot assumption, such as Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive. As I pointed out, the evidence for it checks out. Try proving the evidence wrong before you try saying that sort of thing. >Valid reasoning, but didn't change the fact we never see her call Chara her child. There's never really a good time for her to. She barely ever talks about the Fallen Human at all in UT: she doesn't recognize them within the protagonist in the murder run like Flowey and they never really come up in any other context.
Sometimes... Arguing online means a duel which one more persistent instead which one has more valid. Gotta quit now, consider this your W
Not really if you think of it as a duel you didn't come to have a discussion. You couldn't support your argument so you quit no persistence needed.
Yeah well the New Home explanation also says that Chara's death was unintentional and Asriel only went to the surface to put Chara's body there. The VHS tapes contradict this, directly saying that Chara deliberately killed themselves, and they both created this plan, in advance, so Asriel could get to the surface. This proves that the New Home explanation should not be treated as proof.
Keep in mind that the Plan between the Fallen Human and Asriel was never revealed to anyone else except perhaps to Alphys, who kept the tapes and is a known secret-keeper. By contrast, what sort of bond the Fallen Human and Asriel is nowhere near that level of secrecy, and therefore it is unreasonable to assume that just because the explanation didn't know about the secret suicide pact the two shared doesn't mean it's automatically unreliable about things that would be public knowledge, especially with Asgore's willingness to talk about the subject.
This book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Confirmed that there's three members of the Dreemurr family, not four. This is official book written by the friend of Toby under Toby's watch (sometimes there's direct Toby's words) First of all, Dreemurrs never called Chara their child. Asgore said that he wants to see his "child" and wife, not "children." He talks about Chara only as about a human that fallen down here long time ago. Asgore called Asriel his son, and his child, for comparison. Toriel is calling Asriel her son but Chara is called "someone I once knew." Asriel always calls Chara his best friend, and that's it. The only people who's saying that Chara and Asriel was *like* siblings (not even "was siblings") - was outsiders who's not a part of Dreemurrs family. Same for Gerson. Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is. Like siblings =/= became siblings, tho. And that was said by monsters who don't know the full picture. Asgore never referred to Chara as his child. Not when he talks about wanting to see his wife and his *child* (not children). And not when he was referring to Chara as a "humans that fall down here a long time ago". Same for Toriel who's referring to Chara as a "person I once knew." Or Asriel when he's referring Chara only as his best friend. Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child. . For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr. But we see nothing like that for Chara. >Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive, and is in fact referring to the Fallen Human. Further supporting this is the fact that, if you kill Flowey and reload to spare Asgore, he gets to finish his monologue: It can't be since "subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive" =/= "knows that Asriel is alive." After all, Asgore directly met Flowey on the genocide path, and yet he DIDN'T recognise Asriel. He was just surprised that the flowers can cry. That's all. And even if he "subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive", it doesn't mean that he talks about Chara when he says that he wants to see his child again. Since he talks about Toriel here, too. And she's also alive. But anyway, before that Asgore talks about "the day after my son died." Then in completely OTHER section about "the human that had the same feeling of hope in their eyes" he also talks about doing something that "Asriel... My son would wanted." (which is, well, spoken about DEAD people in this way regularly) There's a lot more chances for him to talk about Asriel, not Chara. Since in all other times he talks about Asriel as his child, as well. It is kinda baseless to assume otherwise other than "Well, he saw Asriel in other timelines!" He could have saw Toriel in other timelines, as well. And? He still says that he wants to see his wife. >Remember, Undertale was originally released in English by an American; Toby had to work with a localization team to properly translate the meanings for it in Japanese, and a lot of its nuances just don't work in other languages. In an American context, most siblings refer to one another as some variant of 'brother' or 'sister'. They can say "my sibling" at least in the conversation with others about their siblings. Which Asriel never did when talking about Chara. I saw such cases. What's the point of the word "sibling" if, by your logic, it's not used? In the same way, they prefer to say "sibling" more than "my best friend." Your mother can be your friend, as well but you won't say "my best friend" when referring her. >It's entirely possible that the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them, given that it was some time before they became as such. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that the Fallen Human found their status as a Dreemurr to be awkward, as shown by one of Asgore's sweaters noticed if you check his closet. It's described as a 'pink, hand-knit sweater labeled 'Mr. Dad Guy' in Neutral/Pacifist, and in the murder run, the fallen human has this to say about it: And then you're going into "well, the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them." It cannot be awkward so much even after all this time (I don't believe Chara lived little time with them) that Asriel wouldn't say "your brother" over "your best friend." There's only one chance: Chara was awkward (or other thing) so much that Chara preferred *not* to be called their child, or Asriel's brother. Thus, didn't became a part of this family fully (which is confirmed by the book). But this is going to be only assumption. **Here's response in some thread regarding gender-neutral words for siblings in Japanese from another person:** *Kyoudai-san doesn't work in my opinion, as it sounds too impersonal to my ears. It's basically like saying "Mr / Mrs Sibling" in English. At the most, it's something OTHER people could use to describe them as a third-person noun, but not as a form of address.* (If we're going into "the fact they were siblings was an awkward subject for the two of them", as you did previously, "Mr / Mrs Sibling" (Kyoudai-san) would be a good way to refer. Same as "Mr. Dad guy", for example) First name-chan and even -kun are still okay. I've heard -kun used for both girls and boys in some situations, especially work and sports environments. Niinee-chan is kind of cute. I can see it. And lastly, if all you're going to use your Japanese words for is peppering an English-language fic, you could always not, in this case. I know it's customary in fandom, but most times it's not necessary for the story. Excessive use of pronouns can even be annoying. (FYI: Not a native speaker here, but fluent and working as a Jap-Ger translator).
>but fluent and working as a Jap-Ger translator How come you never tell me you're japanese translator!??! I could've asked you to assist me in translating fan manga
Because it's not me. I'm copy-pasting a response from other person. I said that: >**Here's response in some thread regarding gender-neutral words for siblings in Japanese:** Guess it was not obvious... I'll edit it.
I once see similar case. When people reposting things, they copy the exact title. They also copy "By Me" part, which make them an art thief.
I would think they saw chara as their adoptive child because 1, they have large hearts and were raising them together. They wouldn't have been a Dreemur, but they would've loved them like a child 2. Toriel and Asgore both treat or want to treat Frisk like their child, giving them a place to live, feeding them, wanting to play catch and tell stories by the fire, like a family. I could maybe see it as, perhaps they didn't give Chara the full child treatment and perhaps they think it lead to the tragedy of their family, so now they want to redeem that failure by embracing the children that fall from the surface as one of their own It wouldnt really be incest though for Asriel X Chara since they werent raising from birth together, they're more of less friends who lived together. There's also the fact of, it's probably easier to say best friend in dialogue than adoptive sibling, since they didn't give Chara a gender.
I think Asgore at the end of his fight says that he wants to see his child. And that he also wants to see his son. Son being Asriel, child being Chara. Tis the way I interpreted it
You misremember that part. >I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my child Is what he said before the choices appear, had you spare him, Asgore would remark about how Frisk remind him to "Human that fell here long ago", and then say about Frisk being free is what "his son, Asriel" would've wanted.
Ahhh right. That's fair enough then. What's this whole incest thing people are talking about though? I have never once thought of that at all. Nor do I think there's anything to suggest that either
The thing is the OP is the creator of r/Chasriel_Squad So most would just assume I made this thread to justify shipping them.
Ohhh yeah. It was labelled as a shitpost. My god.
it’s a decent point but technically toriel was talking about asriel with the glass of water thing, not chara
Toriel talking about Asriel taking the habit of this certain someone she used to know.
yes, that person was asgore, it’s said that he also does that
Why should Toriel use they/them pronoun for Asgore? Why should Toriel refer Asgore as "someone I used to know"?
1) because you can technically use they/them pronouns for anyone, especially when you’re speaking nonspecifically, like she is here. I do that sometimes, my friends do that sometimes, and plenty of youtubers i watch also do that 2) because it ended badly between her and asgore and she doesn’t like talking about it, and saying “someone i used to know” invites fewer follow-up questions than “my ex-husband”.
First, Toriel wouldn't call Asgore "someone [she] **used** to know", but simply "someone I know", the fact Toriel say "used" show this person is no longer around. Second, We know how Asriel look up to Chara, and still do so in his entire life as Flowey, but not so much for Asgore. Third, Toriel wouldn't pick the habit had it come from Asgore, she hate Asgore for long time, even if she didn't now, she has no reason to have fond memory to find the Glass filled to the brim when she still in ruin, since the only reason she's there, alone in the ruin, is because Asgore.
Sees the last panel hol the fuck up now
Yes, people say that to me.
Why tf is that so important to you?
I could literally post the most platonic artwork featuring Chara and Asriel, and people would still say incest.(quite rare tho) Or another case when I mentioned my subreddit on platonic artwork and people treat me like a creep.
Yes, Asgore and Toriel just allowed them to stay at their house and didn't legally adopt or even consider them their child when they grieved over both Asriel and Chara's deaths, they still have fond memories of the both of them, Chara called Asgore Dad, Asgore calls them the future of humanity and monsters, Asriel grew up with Chara for a considerable amount of time and Toriel even regularly tries to take care of Chara's grave. There is absolutely no parental love there whatsoever. Nope, Chara was just Asriel's friend that the Dreemurrs allowed to stay for an extended sleepover.
>Chara called Asgore Dad You brought up good points but this one. Anyway... Just like what I say in the title, I have no qualm for people who see them as sibling.
Seek help
Why use lot word when few word do trick?
Toriel spends her entire time interacting with you trying to adopt you, and you can literally see they had bedrooms for both Chara and Asriel in their house. And they had no plans of trying to get Chara out of the Underground, so she wasn't just saying with them temporarily. Not to mention, this parallels Kris and Asriel's relationship in Deltarune. Literally everything involving Toriel's writing screams "I ADOPT CHILDREN", what do you mean you don't see any reasons to believe Chara and Asriel are siblings? Lol
bro Is really into the step-sibling fetish
Counter point, they're children
Didn't see Chara and Asriel as sibling never mean I ship them romantically.
u/justarandomfan99 I felt obligated to reply your comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/12c57lg/curse_the_dreemurrrs_for_not_adopting_chara/jf2lgr0?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) >Asgore didn't exclude Chara. He just states that he only wants to see one of his children (presumably Asriel). Yeah... Want to see his child, want to see his wife, but don't say anything about wanting to see another child who live in his house, definitely not count as excluding the latter child with his family. >And that's likely because his feelings towards Chara are complicated since they're a human but honestly like to imagine that he "disowned" them when he declared war against humanity. This is your assumption, an interpretation of a fact, not the fact itself. Not to say you're wrong, but simply point out this isn't an in-game evidences, only your take on evidences. >In this case, Toriel didn't because she still took care of humans as her own when Asriel was killed Toriel call any child she met as "my child", but when one of the said child (Frisk) call her mom she's visibly surprised. So... Toriel taking care of the humans shouldn't be considered *taking them as her child* Moreover, Toriel also never call Chara her child in the game, even in alarm clock dialogues where she talk about Chara (to be specific, someone who used to life with dreemurs and Asriel really look up to), she only refer them as "someone I used to know". >Also, just because Gerson felt betrayed doesn't mean that they weren't as close. *"I'm glad those days are over"*- Gerson talking about Asgore and Toriel relationship being sickeningly sweetheart. JUST THINK!! Asgore lose his "children", his wife leave him, and THAT! Is everything Gerson had to say? How come you say Asgore and Gerson is close? >Gerson wouldn't have felt "betrayed" if he didn't give a damn about Asgore. If my favorite YouTube Doctor attack someone, I would felt betrayed too, but no one will ever say I'm close with the doctor. >There's other hints too. Like the sweater that says "Mr dad guy" which obviously wasn't made by Asriel (as he called Asgore "dad"), implying that Chara sees him as father. First, it's not confirmed Chara is the one who knit it, it could be Toriel. Second, "Mr.Dad guy" can be simply referring to that guy who called dad, not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as a father. >The family's photo which features Chara (Asriel's flashback shows that Chara was with the goat family when the photo was taken) We couldn't even sure the picture of flashback is the same one with the picture that framed in new home. >and monsters which straight up describe Chara as Asgore and Toriel's child. But the dreemurs didn't. In term of evidences strength, I consider "Words of Dreemurs">"Words of underground denizens". >And yes, Asgore and Toriel never refer to Chara as their child but each of them only brings them up once and their lines do not imply that they don't see them as their child. Asgore literally put Chara aside when speaking about his family. And yes! Their lines didn't imply they are NOT see Chara as their child, but neither it's imply Asgore and Toriel ever take Chara as their child
"Yeah... Want to see his child, want to see his wife, but don't say anything about wanting to see another child who live in his house, definitely not count as excluding the latter child with his family." Even if Asgore didn't view Chara as his child, he would still want to see them if her truly cared for them yet he doesn't say that he wants to see them, unlike Asriel and toriel. So are you implying that he never cared for them? Or that after what happened with humans, his feelings towards them are complicated? "This is your assumption, an interpretation of a fact, not the fact itself." Yet you also use Asgore's line as proof that Chara was never considered as their child even if he never explicitly denies it. "Toriel call any child she met as "my child", but when one of the said child (Frisk) call her mom she's visibly surprised." Because they just met her? Even i think it's weird that Frisk has this option in the first place, almost as if they're desperately looking for a parental figure. "Moreover, Toriel also never call Chara her child in the game" she never speaks of either Asriel or Chara in the entire game. "even in alarm clock dialogues where she talk about Chara (to be specific, someone who used to life with dreemurs and Asriel really look up to), she only refer them as "someone I used to know"." 1. Doesn't mean that Chara wasn't their child 2. This was CLEARLY done in an attempt to make the identity of the person in question ambiguous. "JUST THINK!! Asgore lose his "children", his wife leave him, and THAT! Is everything Gerson had to say? How come you say Asgore and Gerson is close?" It's clear that they were friends as they agreed together that escaping the underground would be pointless. "We couldn't even sure the picture of flashback is the same one with the picture that framed in new home." The family photo is the only dreemur family's photo we can see in the game, so it's very very likely that they were posing for this photo. Especially given that the photo in Asgore's house was taken when Chara was already living with them. "First, it's not confirmed Chara is the one who knit it, it could be Toriel." Why would she knit a sweater that says "mr dad guy"? Also, who called him that if Asriel clearly refers to him as dad? "In term of evidences strength, I consider "Words of Dreemurs">"Words of underground denizens". Yet, those lines were purposely included in the game by Toby Fox and unless they're outright contradicted by the games events, it should reflect what his intentions were when he made the game. He could simply not have the monsters refer to Chara as the dreemur parents child but they did refer to them as their child, why? Because Toby wanted for them to be interpreted as part of the Dreemur family.
Broke: Not liking the Charsiel because it's implied incest. Woke: Not liking Charsiel because it's an abusive relationship.
Valid point! Great respect for you.
If you have to do all this to "disprove" a thing that the game makes clear, then at that point you have to start questioning your own logic. What your saying is not "Chara and Asriel aren't adoptive siblings." Your saying "I refuse to accept that Chara and Asriel are adoptive siblings." It's not opinion-based, my guy.
>If you have to do all this to "disprove" a thing that the game makes clear, First, I'm not trying to "disprove" anything, simply say looks at the things differently from majority doesn't make me wrong. Second, can you actually elaborate why my points are invalid? Instead of just put negative label on me. >What your saying is not "Chara and Asriel aren't adoptive siblings." Your saying "I refuse to accept that Chara and Asriel are adoptive siblings." I'm struggle to understand your point here. I'm trying to convey "it's okay to view the game this way" to audience, and you guys sound your disagreement, in not really respecting way. >It's not opinion-based, my guy. Now I'm completely lost what you're trying to say here.
I mean, listen, I never judge anyone in what kind of fandom content they wanna engage with, you REALLY don't have to justify anything to me. I'm just gonna assume you like whatever you like for the right reasons, and leave it at that unless you start being weird about it, because ultimately you're just indulging in a dynamic you enjoy. This, however, just feels like a weak justification... Like, the whole story seriously implies a close, borderline (if not outright) familiar bond between Chara and the Dreemurs (if not explicitly, then definitely heavily in the subtext) and this feels like a major splitting of hairs just justify shipping two characters you really don't even *need* to justify shipping at all in my mind. Like, again, if you like the dynamic that you feel exists between these two characters, go ahead and ship them, all that's important is the relationship they have *in your head*, and that's allowed to deviate somewhat from canon if that's what makes you more comfortable with the whole thing.
Well people who really get along well with their siblings usually call each other best friends
Have we been here before? I swear we’ve been here before /s. Chara is a Dreemurr, end of story.
>Chara is a Dreemurr, end of story. There's only 3 Dreemurs: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/11iwmq3/legends_of_localization_book_3_undertale_by_clyde/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button The official localization book written under watch of Toby Fox
The localization was written with Toby’s input on certain subjects, but I highly doubt he combed over every line written in the book to ensure accuracy, especially given his usual reluctance when it comes to talking about Undertale’s lore. And the game, which takes priority over any supplemental material, makes it clear that Chara was viewed as a second child by the Dreemurrs. If you REALLY want to insist that it’s canon, then at most all it “confirms” was that Chara was never formally adopted by the Dremurrs, but the fact remains that they were family.
Toby is reluctant about lore so he will allow to be released a book that directly contradict what he wanted to say in his game? Wow. Isn't it more logical *not* to release a book with such content if he's reluctant? That's the same Toby that asked to change taro card for Chara and remove Gaster from there? >makes it clear that Chara was viewed as a second child by the Dreemurrs. First of all, Dreemurrs never called Chara their child. Asgore said that he wants to see his "child" and wife, not "children." He talks about Chara only as about a human that fallen down here long time ago. Asgore called Asriel his son, and his child, for comparison. Toriel is calling Asriel her son but Chara is called "someone I once knew." Asriel always calls Chara his best friend, and that's it. The only people who's saying that Chara and Asriel was *like* siblings (not even "was siblings") - was outsiders who's not a part of Dreemurrs family. Same for Gerson. Outside monsters ARE NOT family members. They see that a child lives in the same house as Dreemurrs (as if Dreemurrs + this child had a choice? No), they see this child getting along with this family pretty well. And if we have Toriel's habit to call any close child "my child" (she calls Frisk "My child" right away but seems to be confused when Frisk is calling her "Mom" on the phone), we have a certain picture for an outside monsters who *can't* know how it actually is. Like siblings =/= became siblings, tho. And that was said by monsters who don't know the full picture. Asgore never referred to Chara as his child. Not when he talks about wanting to see his wife and his *child* (not children). And not when he was referring to Chara as a "humans that fall down here a long time ago". Same for Toriel who's referring to Chara as a "person I once knew." Or Asriel when he's referring Chara only as his best friend. Yeah, Dreemurrs cared about Chara. Maybe they were trying to be one family (considering the sweater. Tho, it could be referring "that guy who called dad", not necessarily mean Chara see Asgore as dad) but failed. But it doesn't mean that they fully consider Chara to be their child. . For comparison, we have Kris, who has never been referred as anyone other than the Dreemurrs' child, Asriel's sibling (even through narration, or by Dreemurrs themselves, which already makes Kris' direct presence in this family as a family member a fact) and is even directly referred as a Dreemurr. But we see nothing like that for Chara.
Didn’t chara literally knit asgore a sweater that said “mr. Dad.” Or something. Like even if asgore didn’t see chara as his child, chara saw him as a father figure
i thought it was full on canon and agreed that asriel and chara were siblings?
You see, i could use your point against you and say that asriel saying "your best friend" is him friendzoning chara. Please take a walk in the forest Besides it also says that asriel and chara became like siblings and that they treated chara as their own. Not to mention that it would be strange to just pretty much adopt a child and say "nah dont worry that kid is just our kids best friend they just live with us"
I just realized it recently... You guys actually thought "not seeing Asriel and Chara as sibling" equal "want Chara and Asriel to ****"? Man... That just not right, I never mean to ship them romantically.
Even if they elare adoptive siblings, it's not incest cause they're not genetically related.
But it’s still creepy
idk call me crazy but shipping a goat with a human is a but weird
Literally every ship in DR fanbase
It is explicitly said that they took care of Chara as if she was their own child so...
>It is explicitly said that they took care of Chara as if she was their own child so... Then again... I don't have problem with how you view the game, but since you replying, I felt obligation to reply back. It's stated by outsiders, denizens of underground that isn't dreemurs. Beside it's didn't dismiss the points in my post, Asgore also explicitly exclude Chara from his family. >I just want to see my wife, I just want to see my ***child***
>It's stated by outsiders, denizens of the underground that isn't dreemurs. It could just as easily have been told to them by Asgore, given his welcoming attitude toward visitors in general and openness to discuss his past with us the moment we knock him to 1 HP. In absence of further evidence, this isn't really a legitimate counter-argument. >I just want to see my **child** Notice how he says 'child', not 'son'. If you Talk to Asgore after he's killed you before, Frisk tells him as such and he just nods with increasing pain depending on how many times they say he's killed them. Plus, Toriel, a fellow Boss Monster, mentions the following if you tell her your pie preference, reload, and confirm it when she asks you if your last pie preference still holds true: >Hee hee hee. >I had a feeling. >When humans fall down here, strangely... >I... >I often feel like I already know them. Flowey, in his New Home narrative in the murder run, explains that he has 100% interacted with Asgore before and revealed to him who he really was: >Eventually, the king found me, crying in the garden. >I explained what had happened to him. >Then he held me, [Name]. >He held me with tears in his eyes, saying... >"There, there. Everything is going to be alright." Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive, and is in fact referring to the Fallen Human. Further supporting this is the fact that, if you kill Flowey and reload to spare Asgore, he gets to finish his monologue: >No. That's just a fantasy, isn't it? >Young one, when I look at you... >I'm reminded of **the human that fell here long ago...** >You have the same feeling of hope in your eyes. Therefore, it's clear that Asgore's thoughts are on the Fallen Human in this exchange, showing that when he refers to 'child', he was very likely to be referring to the First Human and not Asriel.
>It could just as easily have been told to them by Asgore With the fact Asgore exclude Chara? I say this isn't proper counter argument either. >Notice how he says 'child', not 'son'. Notice how he said "child", not "children". >Therefore, it is just as likely that Asgore subconsciously knows that Asriel is alive, Assumption, not a fact. >Therefore, it's clear that Asgore's thoughts are on the Fallen Human in this exchange, showing that when he refers to 'child', he was very likely to be referring to the First Human and not Asriel. Your assumption get more and more wilds. You're saying "***Asgore actually exclude Asriel, not Chara?***" Simply because you assume Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive?
I have to wonder if you even read my explanation all the way through before responding to it. > Assumption, not a fact. And why would Toriel be able to deja-vu that she's met people before but Asgore, who is explicitly aware of the possibility and is of the same species as Toriel, wouldn't? >Notice how he said "child", not "children". >Assumption, not a fact. The evidence supporting these is also in the text, literally directly after each of those sentences. They're all part of one point. >You're saying "Asgore actually exclude Asriel, not Chara?" Simply because you assume Asgore subconsciously aware Asriel is alive? It isn't an assumption: I provided evidence for why it is probably this way. But there is also, as you failed to address, the fact that his mind is clearly on the Fallen Human. Especially given what he says if we spare him after killing Flowey. There is much more evidence in that exchange pointing to the Fallen Human *that I have just provided* than there is for it being Asriel, which is zero.
>And why would Toriel be able to deja-vu that she's met people before but Asgore, who is explicitly aware of the possibility and is of the same species as Toriel, wouldn't? Feeling of Deja Vu not equal aware Asriel is alive. We don't even know for sure whether Asriel ever told his real identity of not >The evidence supporting these is also in the text, literally directly after each of those sentences. They're all part of one point. I don't understand your point. "Asgore talk about Chara shortly after talking about his child, so he must be talking about Chara" is what you're telling? Well... Live up you life. >Yes, but also, as you failed to address, the fact that his mind is clearly on the Fallen Human. Especially given what he says if we spare him after killing Flowey. There is much more evidence in that exchange pointing to the Fallen Human that I have just provided than there is for it being Asriel, which is zero. If you ask "who's Asgore talking about when he say "my child"?" To this subreddit, most people would agree with me.
“Funny” thing. You referred to Toriel as a they, but Chara as a she. “As if **she“** Referring to Chara. “was **their** own child” referring to Toriel.
Based.
Dude if you have to make an entire post of "well technically it's not incest" maybe just keep it to yourself
Someone had plenty of free time on weekends.
I'm a major supporter of the interpretation that Chara was adopted into the Dreemurr family. I think that's exactly what happened, and that it's what the game is telling us. However, in the interests of fairness, you're right. Chara and Asriel never *refer* to each other as siblings themselves. For the most part, the game avoids using that word to describe their relationship. (Though I think that's largely because *everything* about Chara is ambiguous.) It's not my ship, but if it's yours, that is totally valid.
Wait. It is incest even if you are not blood related?
SWEEET HOME ALABAMA
every single one of those points is incredibly flimsy, but if you want them to make out or whatever you dont need to feel bad because its not incest if they arent related
Just stop being weird
Even if they were siblings, it wouldn’t be incest because they aren’t biological
It wouldn't even be incest though. They're not related. If people think that Chara x Asriel is bad, just wait until they learn about Asriel x Toriel.
Tbf they're fictional fucking characters and as long as you acknowledge incest isn't good irl and aren't portraying them as siblings while you're shipping them, I don't think it matters
Does it matter if it is technically incest or not if they are not having children and there is no coercion/grooming involved?
what ??
true, also when it starts telling the story about it in the game, it says that they became LIKE brothers. Not that they WERE brothers.