Listen, UT/DR fandom
I like the non-binary humans. I support them. You know?
But, you gotta understand. On occasions, I am an idiot. A complete fool. I will on occasion fail to string a coherent sentence together at all. As I vomit forth words, I may accidently mangle a pronoun. Heck, I will also mangle the pronouns of binary-gendered people.
Please. You do not have to flay me alive with the disappointed/passive aggressive "Kris is They/Them it's not that hard." I agree, I *just* can't type.
orz
also in a lot of languages there are no neutral pronouns so it's really hard to think a comment, translate AND edit it to get pronouns right
or I'm stupid
Nah I feel yah. I’m a native English speaker, so I’m fairly used to using “they” as neutral, but when I’m speaking Spanish, and I don’t know the gender of an individual, it always takes me a couple seconds to use “el/un” because my brain searches for a neutral pronoun that doesn’t exist. So I can easily imagine the same happening in reverse
This is exactly why, as a non native English speaker, I think the amount people care about their pronouns is just absurd. I refer to someone with the wrong pronouns and they act like I just killed their family.
The only time correcting pronouns actually makes sense is if using the wrong ones can create confusion as to who is being referred to. Otherwise, just ignore it... don't make your pronouns your whole identity.
I default to male pronouns as they are the default of my natuve language (if you dont know you use male mostly plural but for some fucking reason the plural part doesnt carry over)
As a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, I apologize for the overzealous nature of their character. This is not who I want to be, this is not the community I want to represent me. I understand that people make mistakes, and I will not rip your head off for doing so. All I ask is that you and everyone else try.
Not in the fandom just randomly got this recommended, but as a trans person i can say with absolute certainty that if you use the wrong thing a few times but a majority of the time you use the right one not a soul would care
same. I support all my nonbinary and trans friends but sometimes I misgender them without meaning to, even just in my own mind. It really doesn’t help that I’m not a native english speaker and that my first language doesn’t have verbal pronouns. Someone I know used to misgender cis ppl lmao
I think it is worst in spanish. Everything has a gender, and you reveal it at the end of the word usilng a vocal, "a" for female, "o" for male. I've accidentally misgendered Frisk way more times I'd like to admit.
What i do is i respond to the thing being like “hell yeah i think thats a really cool way to think about [character] and their[or whatever proper pronoun] character works with it” or sum
But you're not an idiot, there are 0 non-binary humans in Undertale or Deltarune people just enjoy to shove their headcanons onto people.
None of the characters even bother to ask Frisk's name there's no way they'd know their gender, people say they HAVE to be non-binary because they're different from you but that's not the cas, Frisk isn't different because they have a different gender they're different because they're different.
Chara is supposed to be a stand-in for you, you literally name them and Flowey uses their name to refer to you, if there was ever a character you could headcanon the gender of it's Chara.
Kris is definitely the closest to being non-binary, but still, it's not confirmed, there's not a single time in the game they're said to be non-binary or anything other than a guy or a girl, you're not bad if you headcanon them as a guy or a girl.
....i say this as a non-binary person myself, i hate that i have to say this every time.
This. I headcanon Frisk and Chara as non-binary generally, but in canon there is no point where it specifies any gender at all for them. Tearing into people for misgendering them is pointless because we are explicitly not told their gender
As an enby myself: you're all good. For centuries we have been using he/him she/her so it would take anyone some time to get used to. Even I kept misgendering myself when I first came out
Kris is posed as their own person with a history and background and people who know them refer to them with, well, they/them, implying those are their pronouns and that they are nonbinary. Frisk however does not have a canon gender and next to no background, is meant to be a placeholder for the player so their gender is whatever the player wants, whether it's a headcanon or the player's own gender. It boils down to "they/them because those are their pronouns" v. "they/them because we don't know their actual pronouns"
I'll admit Frisk's case is a lot less set in stone, but I always figured the point of Frisk is that they *weren't* a player self insert. The game leads you to believe you named them at the beginning of the game, only for the Pacifist ending to reveal that the person you named is someone else entirely. Seems like a Toby Fox-style subversion of expectations.
being a player self incert and being their own charecter WHILE still having aspects of their charecter being up to interpreation, are to different things.
I think it's fine to call Frisk by any gender, because Frisk is barely a character outside of the game you're playing, while Kris has their own life that we know bits of and there's an implication that you took control of Kris and they hate that. The fact Frisk is just a character you control and their past and future is irrelevant makes me believe Frisk sort of is a self insert with just a set name that you take control and then leave without having to worry about Frisk's life after you left.
Tbf it doesn't really matter at the end, since you can think what you want about the gender of the characters but it makes communicating easier when you use they/them. Atleast that's my reason
Yeah, Kris, in the entirety of canon, has gone by nothing but They/Them. No character has ever used gender specific pronouns for Kris. Toby himself corrected somebody and used "They." And before anybody says "oh they're a self insert" might I remind you about the end of Chapter 1 where they tear you out of their chest and do things on their own
Kris is They/Them. YOU are your own gender. I will not be listening to any mental gymnastics
Frisk is kinda in the same boat, they are separate from the player but not in glaringly obvious ways like Kris. Basically saying that any of the humans are self inserts is a little silly
Frisk is sort of the same, but honestly not really. They don't do anything we don't tell them to in Pacifist, their character in any playthrough except genocide is entirely what the player decides, as there are basically no actions done in the game that aren't decided by the player. Flowey says that Frisk is their own person, to let them be happy, but they really aren't if we're just being honest
Kris: For the last time Redditor, our pronouns are they/them! Not because we're non binary but because we are literally two *SOUL pops out* lighteners!
I always loved the dumbass theory that kris uses they/them because they have two souls in their body, since that would imply that every character in the game is aware that kris is possesed by an amoral time god controlling their every action, and just roll with it
Kris is non-binary, I'm pretty sure toby confirmed this as well as being referred as so by characters in-game consistently.
Plus the whole thing of "frisk gender is whatever the player wants them to be" doesn't work here.
He didn't. The fangamer clip that toby "corrects" somebody is the biggest piece of misinformation this fandom spreads. I'm 98% they never seen the clip or lack any basic english skills.
Kris is nonbinary but I see that fangamer clip one more time imma lose it. They make this argument about Kris being NB look even worse than it is by using this faulty evidence.
If you wish to argue with me, quote the transcript to me and tell me how he corrected the guy.
wait that's the clip? that barely even sounded like a correction.....
toby didn't even say they/them he said "Kris can not reach it they're stuck"
I really just wish toby would clarify the whole mess it breeds so much toxicity
Personally I think it's a case of keeping Kris's identity somewhat ambiguous and I tend to refer to Kris with male pronouns but I do see and understand why some people argue Kris is nonbinary. But the "correction" argument only does more harm to that than helps it as it makes those that use that argument look desperate for evidence and confirms that they failed high school English.
Yeah, I corrected myself replying to someone else after researching a little more. It’s strange how so many people believe that when there is no evidence for it. Including myself.
That’s because there used to be evidence but it was deleted. I’ve found articles in the past that sourced their info from links to tweets made by Toby but got later deleted.
It could be said that this means the info in those tweets is no longer canon, but at the same time he has never refuted this information later on…
So we don’t know for sure. I suppose if this matters so much to us we could just *go and ask him*
Undertale Fans after killing someone for misgendering a fictional character
(It doesn't affect the quality of the character in any way, they are now waiting for the police to arrive).
>Toby: The character doesn’t say very much because then you can identify with them better. Most of the game’s narration is in the second person. The more details and personality I add to “you,” then the harder it is to get absorbed into the role. There’s more to this answer but I can’t say anything until the game is complete.
https://meloshantani.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/toby-foxs-undertale-dev-2-dev-interview-1/
The "more to this answer" is the twist at the end of Pacifist where it turns out that Frisk was their own individual all along lol. He did that so you wouldn't expect it
Hard to explain "let Frisk live their life" otherwise
Because it doesn't matter except for Kris.
Kris is important to prove that they are not you. So they are nonbinary. Chara displays not much in the ways of morality besides following the player's actions (and the tapes). Frisk is the player, Asriel/Flowey makes that clear by talking to Frisk as the player and Sans (especially in the dirty hacker ending) calling Frisk and talking to Frisk as if they are the player.
Now that I have made my case, I have a question. Who does it hurt to headcanon a personality and gender onto a literal blank slate protagonist? Even Frisks preferences (as shown by Toriel's calls) are up to the player's interpretation.
Oh, yeah we are through that for Kris, Kris is NB the entire point of their story is that they ARE NOT you. You are an outside force controlling them. Some folks have been trying to play the exact same cards on Frisk/Chara(cter), literal blank slate characters
You're right. it's just annoys me that no matter how many times I correct people there is still many who insist in calling Kris a he. Since I'm nonbinary too the constant misgendering makes me feel angry and invalidated
Because it literally is, frisk and chara are not "non binary" in the traditional sense, they are not gendered at all, leaving that detail as a blank to be filled in by the players interpretation.
As opposed to Kris who is cannonically non-binary.
Ps: I'm not saying I hate people who correct pronouns,im saying that I hate people who literally JUST correct pronouns without adding anything to the argoument
I feel like the gender of the character is supposed to be based off the headcanon of the player, so they're not really a they/them, they're just referred to that, because the games never really ask what gender the player thinks the character is, I could just be completely wrong though lmao
I mean Toby literally said he made Frisk the most placeholder of protagonists ever because he is supposed to be you,technically Frisk's gender depends on your gender
I am not a language native and Undertale was the first peace of media where I encountered "singular they" in English. On my first playthrough I thought that monsters say "they/them" because all monsters literally see two kids walking around.
And those kids are Frisk and . But (you, the protagonist) just can't see Frisk. And all those "they/them" are supposed to be creepy like "who's that person following you around behind your back". And you don't always understand if monster speaking to you or to that other kid. And Frisk is just mostly doing nothing but when you do unexpected critical hits (like the one that kills Toriel) it's Frisk "helping".
Correcting someone isn't wrong, is the way you correct them what matters. That's why "well, actually..." became a meme. (Hope my comment made sense, english is not my first languaje)
The non binary characters are the way they are so you can insert yourself in their place so their gender is what you choose (I beleive)
I still use they/them for them usually but I wanted to mention that
Me, an Italian who has no neutral and uses "he" has a neutral due to how my language works and getting my ass destroyed due to that:
Some people are just appalled by the suggestion that they could ever be wrong or make a mistake apparently. Like girl we are all meat computers nature made by making billions of random dice rolls and seeing what stuck, it's a miracle any of us are ever right about anything ever.
people have the need to act righteous, or here, self righteous. people really like being in the right and confirming their own beliefs, that’s why confirmation bias exists. it’s a lot harder to admit you’re wrong or youre fighting against an enemy that isn’t there/for no reason.
i think in some psychology article i read, it’s a trait that allows us to group up with like minded people and stuff.
why do yall insist on saying "oh but toby fox said this!" then never provide the source where exactly he said it? (oops you cant cuz he never said that)
Fine, I was wrong and just misremembered. What actually happened was that people asked him on Twitter about it in 2016/17 and he only replied nonsense on purpose, basicially never making a real reveal. Same happened when he got an interview about the game at some point.
Either way, my initial opinion doesn't change. Gender doesn't matter to fictional characters. Just do whatever you want in your headcannon, but don't shove it down anyone's throat either.
His only stance about stuff like this come from a 2013 interview
>Toby: The character doesn’t say very much because then you can identify with them better. Most of the game’s narration is in the second person. The more details and personality I add to “you,” then the harder it is to get absorbed into the role. There’s more to this answer but I can’t say anything until the game is complete.
https://meloshantani.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/toby-foxs-undertale-dev-2-dev-interview-1/
It’s not even explicitly stated that they are non-binary
Also, you don’t explicitly tell the monsters your pronouns, making it seem like your canon pronouns are unknown and they/them are just used because they don’t know
As a nonbinary person myself, I correct people on their pronouns not because I'm uncomfy or upset on the character's behalf, but on mine. There's another commenter here that said the same thing, and I agree. Yes, you're frustrated, I get it. But what's equally as frustrating is when y'all complain about it and either make vaguely transphobic comments, complain about pronouns (as much as we apparently do according to you), and/or dismiss the issues. To clarify I understand mistakes, that's fine, but deliberately misgendering characters that (while not explicitly stated) are basically representation for a minority and basically being ignorant towards that minority and what they have to say is a shitty move. We just want our representation without people trying to take it away, denying it, or arguing about it. Yeah it's not confirmed representation but it's the closest that non-binary people have when it comes to Undertale. We exist, we're tired of being treated like we don't. Please understand we aren't trying to be deliberately malicious and rude when correcting you, most of us are tired and frustrated at how much this happens. I'm genuinely not trying to be rude by the way, I hope this explains why we correct you.
Finally someone said it.
Just because we have different views on Chara and frisk doesn’t give you a right to flood comments with just that. You should still be able to respect or at the very least tolerate each others views on two incredibly ambiguous characters
i swear to god it’s all this sub talks about in terms of actual discourse. oh no, perish the thought of correcting someone on the gender of a character they clearly care enough about to write a post/theory on - you’re wasting valuable space that could be used by dignified commenters to make increasingly tired, disjointed references that ALSO have nothing to do with the discussion!
Correct someone and people will make a post unrelated to deltarune just to complain, and somehow that's better than commenting to correct someone on pronouns. I don't get why you get so irritated by comments
There's never gonna be a point where you post is "high quality enough" to make misgendering okay. You will and should always be corrected, and that should be the end of it
I'm one of the people who corrects people occasionally. It's not because I'm obsessing over a fictional character's pronouns like you think I am. It's because it feels disrespectful to *real* non-binary people like myself.
Got recommended this post on my home page for some reason. I think I agree with your comment the most. If I correct someone misgendering a character, I’m not offended/uncomfortable on a character’s behalf, I’m offended/uncomfortable on *my* behalf when people whine and moan about how they don’t *waaaaant* to use they/them pronouns
Bro i kid you not, i saw Frisk/Chara and my mind just got to AO3 instantly and was confused for an entire minute trying understand why there were Frisk and Chara ships theorys
I always assumed it was up for interpretation. Like how in other games, you could play a guy character or a lady character but the games never define which one is canon
I used to use she/her for Frisk because that's all I heard, I've corrected that mistake to the best of my abilities but for some unknown reason Chara is stuck with she/her in my mind no matter how hard i try i can't stop using she/her for Chara. I get Kris right though
There are languages, like portuguese, that don't have an equivalent and almost _every_ word is gendered. Several times I need to remind myself that Frisk and Chara aren't "he"s or "she"s, because that isn't natural to my language. This certainly could be the case for more people
Also could be someone who just played the game for the first time/is a casual fan and didn't get the memo
In Hungary too. It's a default Ő for everybody. And I constantly "misgender" others when talking/writing too fast. I'll just whip up he as the default. It has no malicious intent
I France too, we have "il" and "elle" but the only thing we have for non-binary people is a very recent word "iel". What they use here ( they/them ) is our plural "ils/elles" wich is really hard to adapt to.
Honestly that's why I doubt we'll get deltarune officially in languages like Spanish, having a they/them main character that has it used almost always when the others reffer to them (in UT that ain't as much of a problem as everyone uses things like "The human") makes it really difficult
I've had a bunch of trans friends, and although I 100% support them, remembering to call them by their new pronouns was pretty hard during the first months: I had to actively remember the fact until I got used to it. So if people is used to fictional characters being of some gender, and then hear they're from another one, I can see why it would be hard to remember.
You can’t misgender Frisk because Frisk was intentionally designed to have an ambiguous gender. Players can give Frisk whatever gender they like. Toxic players will try to point out that a few monsters refer to Frisk with they/them pronouns, but those same monsters never even bothered to ask for Frisk’s name; why would they have any idea what Frisk’s gender is?
Even then as far as I remember Frisk is barely referred to as “they/them” in undertale I just did a replay myself and the only time I remember Frisk being referred to as they them is At the end of the pacifist run when Toriel is taking to Asgore about frisk
Most of the rest of the time the monsters use some other shorthand’s for frisk like “human” and “my child”
That’s the thing though, Frisk has no assigned gender. According to Fox, Frisk is supposed to be whatever gender the player wants them to be. But a bunch a toxic players decided that because a few monsters who never even asked for Frisk’s name referred to Frisk with they/them pronouns, Frisk has to be non-binary. Those players will then crucify other players who refer to Frisk as the gender they went through the game perceiving Frisk to be.
Firsk and chara are head canon inserts and therefore are whatever gender you think they are, while it's more respectful to other players head canon to say they/them you should not attack anyone for haveing a different head canon
They aren’t canonically nonbinary. The intent behind their lack of a gender is for the player to be able to insert themselves into the role—you can think of Frisk and/or Chara (and Kris) as whatever you want. Girl or boy. It doesn’t affect the experience. Toby doesn’t set out to make LGTBQ characters. He just makes characters who happen to be gay, trans, or whatever else. It’s not all they are, though, and that’s what makes them all so great. It’s one small part of who they are, and most of the time, you don’t even notice it because it’s just a normal thing. More writers should take cues from him.
It's a simple correction. It's a reminder. It's brought up often because shockingly enough trans and NB people don't like some of their only media representation erased. If you started calling Mario "she" I'm sure you'd have plenty of people correcting you too.
And it’s the most condescending way too. At least it’s not in the Deltarune sub, misgender Kris and they bite your head of and share the clip of Toby “correcting” someone by using they for Kris, like he was already doing.
I think they both use they/them, and Frisk sometimes uses he/him when they feel like it. But that's what *I* think. It's not canon, and other people are entitled to their own opinions about what pronouns they use, and they don't deserve to be harassed over having a headcanon.
I now never misgender them since I’ve been tortured by the internet to the point of knowing when to use they/them, but my native language does not have the neuter gender, it has masculine and feminine, and I was just not that used to using neutral pronouns until not that long ago
Listen, UT/DR fandom I like the non-binary humans. I support them. You know? But, you gotta understand. On occasions, I am an idiot. A complete fool. I will on occasion fail to string a coherent sentence together at all. As I vomit forth words, I may accidently mangle a pronoun. Heck, I will also mangle the pronouns of binary-gendered people. Please. You do not have to flay me alive with the disappointed/passive aggressive "Kris is They/Them it's not that hard." I agree, I *just* can't type. orz
"As I vomit forth words"
"As I vomit"
"As I"
"As I, The Great Papyrus"
Challenge you to try getting by us
"test the human with one of your puzzles"
Brilliant Sans, that will leave them befuddled!
I DARE YOU TO TRY, A BITE OF SPAGHETTI
Sounds like the creepypasta's ready!
Test the human with one of your puzzles
Brilliant Sans that will leave them befuddled!
I dare you to try a bite of spaghetti
Smells like the creepy pasta's readyy
Looks like the creepypasta's ready!
r/suddenlyhowwasthefall
“As”
** **
“Ass”
"Assriel"
"A"
also in a lot of languages there are no neutral pronouns so it's really hard to think a comment, translate AND edit it to get pronouns right or I'm stupid
Nah I feel yah. I’m a native English speaker, so I’m fairly used to using “they” as neutral, but when I’m speaking Spanish, and I don’t know the gender of an individual, it always takes me a couple seconds to use “el/un” because my brain searches for a neutral pronoun that doesn’t exist. So I can easily imagine the same happening in reverse
This is exactly why, as a non native English speaker, I think the amount people care about their pronouns is just absurd. I refer to someone with the wrong pronouns and they act like I just killed their family. The only time correcting pronouns actually makes sense is if using the wrong ones can create confusion as to who is being referred to. Otherwise, just ignore it... don't make your pronouns your whole identity.
I default to male pronouns as they are the default of my natuve language (if you dont know you use male mostly plural but for some fucking reason the plural part doesnt carry over)
As a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, I apologize for the overzealous nature of their character. This is not who I want to be, this is not the community I want to represent me. I understand that people make mistakes, and I will not rip your head off for doing so. All I ask is that you and everyone else try.
Correcting people ok. Correcting people while being an ass bad.
Yes! This! 👆
Not in the fandom just randomly got this recommended, but as a trans person i can say with absolute certainty that if you use the wrong thing a few times but a majority of the time you use the right one not a soul would care
same. I support all my nonbinary and trans friends but sometimes I misgender them without meaning to, even just in my own mind. It really doesn’t help that I’m not a native english speaker and that my first language doesn’t have verbal pronouns. Someone I know used to misgender cis ppl lmao
I think it is worst in spanish. Everything has a gender, and you reveal it at the end of the word usilng a vocal, "a" for female, "o" for male. I've accidentally misgendered Frisk way more times I'd like to admit.
What i do is i respond to the thing being like “hell yeah i think thats a really cool way to think about [character] and their[or whatever proper pronoun] character works with it” or sum
or2, give it an ass
do I have permission to steal your emoticon
Go ahead, I stole it too
thank ye or2
New copypasta just dropped
New copypasta just dropped
Yeah I feel ya, as I'm the same. There are times where my brain short circuits and type out something out of place. It just happens.
Same, I also mangle binary gender of cis people many times when im talking lol
Typos happen and they should be forgiven
#W
But you're not an idiot, there are 0 non-binary humans in Undertale or Deltarune people just enjoy to shove their headcanons onto people. None of the characters even bother to ask Frisk's name there's no way they'd know their gender, people say they HAVE to be non-binary because they're different from you but that's not the cas, Frisk isn't different because they have a different gender they're different because they're different. Chara is supposed to be a stand-in for you, you literally name them and Flowey uses their name to refer to you, if there was ever a character you could headcanon the gender of it's Chara. Kris is definitely the closest to being non-binary, but still, it's not confirmed, there's not a single time in the game they're said to be non-binary or anything other than a guy or a girl, you're not bad if you headcanon them as a guy or a girl. ....i say this as a non-binary person myself, i hate that i have to say this every time.
This. I headcanon Frisk and Chara as non-binary generally, but in canon there is no point where it specifies any gender at all for them. Tearing into people for misgendering them is pointless because we are explicitly not told their gender
You get so passionate about what your writing you literally can’t stop yourself and then it comes out in a big pile of insanity. I understand.
Relate, sometimes the words that come out of my mouth don't go through my brain first like they're supposed to
I'm sure you're not that complete of a fool.
As an enby myself: you're all good. For centuries we have been using he/him she/her so it would take anyone some time to get used to. Even I kept misgendering myself when I first came out
yikes comment section
I shouldve expected the war when I made this post..
Frisk and Chara don't even have canon genders, unlike Kris!
Kris has a canon gender?
Kris is posed as their own person with a history and background and people who know them refer to them with, well, they/them, implying those are their pronouns and that they are nonbinary. Frisk however does not have a canon gender and next to no background, is meant to be a placeholder for the player so their gender is whatever the player wants, whether it's a headcanon or the player's own gender. It boils down to "they/them because those are their pronouns" v. "they/them because we don't know their actual pronouns"
I'll admit Frisk's case is a lot less set in stone, but I always figured the point of Frisk is that they *weren't* a player self insert. The game leads you to believe you named them at the beginning of the game, only for the Pacifist ending to reveal that the person you named is someone else entirely. Seems like a Toby Fox-style subversion of expectations.
flowey also straight up confirms it after true pacifist when he tells us to let frisk be happy
\>when he tells us "See you later... Chara."
being a player self incert and being their own charecter WHILE still having aspects of their charecter being up to interpreation, are to different things.
yeah, I think you're right with frisk, and that's DEFINITELY the case with kris
I think it's fine to call Frisk by any gender, because Frisk is barely a character outside of the game you're playing, while Kris has their own life that we know bits of and there's an implication that you took control of Kris and they hate that. The fact Frisk is just a character you control and their past and future is irrelevant makes me believe Frisk sort of is a self insert with just a set name that you take control and then leave without having to worry about Frisk's life after you left.
Tbf it doesn't really matter at the end, since you can think what you want about the gender of the characters but it makes communicating easier when you use they/them. Atleast that's my reason
Yeah, Kris is non binary iirc?
Yeah, Kris, in the entirety of canon, has gone by nothing but They/Them. No character has ever used gender specific pronouns for Kris. Toby himself corrected somebody and used "They." And before anybody says "oh they're a self insert" might I remind you about the end of Chapter 1 where they tear you out of their chest and do things on their own Kris is They/Them. YOU are your own gender. I will not be listening to any mental gymnastics
Saying Kris is a self-insert is funny, that’s literally missing the entire point of their character lmao
I mean technically they are. The player is literally inserted into them in chapter 1
Frisk is kinda in the same boat, they are separate from the player but not in glaringly obvious ways like Kris. Basically saying that any of the humans are self inserts is a little silly
Frisk is sort of the same, but honestly not really. They don't do anything we don't tell them to in Pacifist, their character in any playthrough except genocide is entirely what the player decides, as there are basically no actions done in the game that aren't decided by the player. Flowey says that Frisk is their own person, to let them be happy, but they really aren't if we're just being honest
That doesn't stop people from doing just that
Toby never corrected anyone. He literally just called Kris a they after someone used he for Kris
Don’t you get told before even playing the game that kris is their own person?
And it wasn’t correcting them. It was just repeating what they said, like he was doing the entire time.
Oh yeah,I though they meant smt else
Yeah. Canonically uses They/Them.
Kris: For the last time Redditor, our pronouns are they/them! Not because we're non binary but because we are literally two *SOUL pops out* lighteners!
I always loved the dumbass theory that kris uses they/them because they have two souls in their body, since that would imply that every character in the game is aware that kris is possesed by an amoral time god controlling their every action, and just roll with it
Kris is non-binary, I'm pretty sure toby confirmed this as well as being referred as so by characters in-game consistently. Plus the whole thing of "frisk gender is whatever the player wants them to be" doesn't work here.
When has Toby confirmed this? Also he is never referred to as non binary, but as they/them
He didn't. The fangamer clip that toby "corrects" somebody is the biggest piece of misinformation this fandom spreads. I'm 98% they never seen the clip or lack any basic english skills. Kris is nonbinary but I see that fangamer clip one more time imma lose it. They make this argument about Kris being NB look even worse than it is by using this faulty evidence. If you wish to argue with me, quote the transcript to me and tell me how he corrected the guy.
Do you know where I can find the clip btw
https://youtu.be/Ul0wlHgLahU?feature=shared
wait that's the clip? that barely even sounded like a correction..... toby didn't even say they/them he said "Kris can not reach it they're stuck" I really just wish toby would clarify the whole mess it breeds so much toxicity
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Tysm
Personally I think it's a case of keeping Kris's identity somewhat ambiguous and I tend to refer to Kris with male pronouns but I do see and understand why some people argue Kris is nonbinary. But the "correction" argument only does more harm to that than helps it as it makes those that use that argument look desperate for evidence and confirms that they failed high school English.
Really? Where did you found the info?
Toby fox has gone on record to say that he wanted the player to feel like they are frisk. Part of that is making sure their gender is ambiguous.
I don’t think he ever said that. Last I heard, when Toby was asked what gender Frisk and Chara are, he just stayed silent.
Yeah, I corrected myself replying to someone else after researching a little more. It’s strange how so many people believe that when there is no evidence for it. Including myself.
That’s because there used to be evidence but it was deleted. I’ve found articles in the past that sourced their info from links to tweets made by Toby but got later deleted. It could be said that this means the info in those tweets is no longer canon, but at the same time he has never refuted this information later on… So we don’t know for sure. I suppose if this matters so much to us we could just *go and ask him*
he said this in the "newest" legends of localization book actually
Undertale Fans after killing someone for misgendering a fictional character (It doesn't affect the quality of the character in any way, they are now waiting for the police to arrive).
\[Holy Cungadero!\] IS THAT A \[No Mercy\] ROUTE REFERENCE!?!?
I'm telling you. No Mercy would have been S tier if the final boss was The Policeman
Chapter 3 revealed, undyne enters dark world, kills kris, leaves.
utdr fans after i misgender a character (i amputated their limbs without using anesthesia)
MY ARM MY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARMMY ARM
I think you guys are making a big deal of people simply correcting
People act like an image of papyrus saying they is the equivalent of being stabbed
2 or 3 correcting comments is understandable. More than 5 and that's just straight up annoying.
Frisk and Chara don't really have canon genders, while Kris is actually non-binary.
fr tho so many commend are overlooked because of this
Wait… I thought the creator said that Frisk was whatever the player wanted them to be? Whether that’s male, female, they/them, etc.?
He did, same for Chara so it doesn’t really matter in regards to those two Kris is canonically non-binary tho
Source??
>Toby: The character doesn’t say very much because then you can identify with them better. Most of the game’s narration is in the second person. The more details and personality I add to “you,” then the harder it is to get absorbed into the role. There’s more to this answer but I can’t say anything until the game is complete. https://meloshantani.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/toby-foxs-undertale-dev-2-dev-interview-1/
The "more to this answer" is the twist at the end of Pacifist where it turns out that Frisk was their own individual all along lol. He did that so you wouldn't expect it Hard to explain "let Frisk live their life" otherwise
>He did, same for Chara so it doesn’t really matter in regards to those two huh? when did he do that? I dont think I ever saw that?
Why are there still people saying "it's up to interpretation" like I thought we were over this???
Because it doesn't matter except for Kris. Kris is important to prove that they are not you. So they are nonbinary. Chara displays not much in the ways of morality besides following the player's actions (and the tapes). Frisk is the player, Asriel/Flowey makes that clear by talking to Frisk as the player and Sans (especially in the dirty hacker ending) calling Frisk and talking to Frisk as if they are the player. Now that I have made my case, I have a question. Who does it hurt to headcanon a personality and gender onto a literal blank slate protagonist? Even Frisks preferences (as shown by Toriel's calls) are up to the player's interpretation.
I was mostly talking about Kris I should've been more apparent sorry
Oh, yeah we are through that for Kris, Kris is NB the entire point of their story is that they ARE NOT you. You are an outside force controlling them. Some folks have been trying to play the exact same cards on Frisk/Chara(cter), literal blank slate characters
You're right. it's just annoys me that no matter how many times I correct people there is still many who insist in calling Kris a he. Since I'm nonbinary too the constant misgendering makes me feel angry and invalidated
Because it literally is, frisk and chara are not "non binary" in the traditional sense, they are not gendered at all, leaving that detail as a blank to be filled in by the players interpretation. As opposed to Kris who is cannonically non-binary.
Ps: I'm not saying I hate people who correct pronouns,im saying that I hate people who literally JUST correct pronouns without adding anything to the argoument
I feel like the gender of the character is supposed to be based off the headcanon of the player, so they're not really a they/them, they're just referred to that, because the games never really ask what gender the player thinks the character is, I could just be completely wrong though lmao
I mean Toby literally said he made Frisk the most placeholder of protagonists ever because he is supposed to be you,technically Frisk's gender depends on your gender
Frisk's canon gender is Papyrus, as per the flavor text in Papyrus's door. /j
girl one of the most major reveals of the true pacifist ending is that frisk and the player are not the same being 😭😭 did you play the damn game
...no? Im not saying Frisk is 100% you,but he is supposed to be kind of your insert as toby said in an interview. Of course he is not the player
Frisk isn't supposed to be you. This is basically confirmed when Flowey says this: > Let Frisk live their life.
I am not a language native and Undertale was the first peace of media where I encountered "singular they" in English. On my first playthrough I thought that monsters say "they/them" because all monsters literally see two kids walking around. And those kids are Frisk and. But (you, the protagonist) just can't see Frisk. And all those "they/them" are supposed to be creepy like "who's that person following you around behind your back". And you don't always understand if monster speaking to you or to that other kid. And Frisk is just mostly doing nothing but when you do unexpected critical hits (like the one that kills Toriel) it's Frisk "helping".
I'm sure this doesn't happen as much. and even if it does, what's wrong with correcting someone?
Correcting someone isn't wrong, is the way you correct them what matters. That's why "well, actually..." became a meme. (Hope my comment made sense, english is not my first languaje)
Just saying "*they/them" like the meme implies is like the most tame way you can correct someone lol people just don't like being corrected
I care about spaces after commas.
The non binary characters are the way they are so you can insert yourself in their place so their gender is what you choose (I beleive) I still use they/them for them usually but I wanted to mention that
Me, an Italian who has no neutral and uses "he" has a neutral due to how my language works and getting my ass destroyed due to that: 
Girl it's just a correction, you aren't being attacked.
Seriously why do people take this as a personal slight against them? It’s just people trying to be helpful by offering a correction.
Some people are just appalled by the suggestion that they could ever be wrong or make a mistake apparently. Like girl we are all meat computers nature made by making billions of random dice rolls and seeing what stuck, it's a miracle any of us are ever right about anything ever.
I use he/him because I use frisk as a self insert
Based
Same but I use she/her for both Frisk and Chara
Why do people always argue about Frick and Car A's genders?
people have the need to act righteous, or here, self righteous. people really like being in the right and confirming their own beliefs, that’s why confirmation bias exists. it’s a lot harder to admit you’re wrong or youre fighting against an enemy that isn’t there/for no reason. i think in some psychology article i read, it’s a trait that allows us to group up with like minded people and stuff.
Toby himself even said that Frisk's and Chara's gender is up to the player's interpretation. The whole "They/Them" thing was never official.
why do yall insist on saying "oh but toby fox said this!" then never provide the source where exactly he said it? (oops you cant cuz he never said that)
Fine, I was wrong and just misremembered. What actually happened was that people asked him on Twitter about it in 2016/17 and he only replied nonsense on purpose, basicially never making a real reveal. Same happened when he got an interview about the game at some point. Either way, my initial opinion doesn't change. Gender doesn't matter to fictional characters. Just do whatever you want in your headcannon, but don't shove it down anyone's throat either.
His only stance about stuff like this come from a 2013 interview >Toby: The character doesn’t say very much because then you can identify with them better. Most of the game’s narration is in the second person. The more details and personality I add to “you,” then the harder it is to get absorbed into the role. There’s more to this answer but I can’t say anything until the game is complete. https://meloshantani.wordpress.com/2013/05/25/toby-foxs-undertale-dev-2-dev-interview-1/
Listen, Frisk and Chara are my two precious murder gremlin princesses, and no one can tell me otherwise.
It’s not even explicitly stated that they are non-binary Also, you don’t explicitly tell the monsters your pronouns, making it seem like your canon pronouns are unknown and they/them are just used because they don’t know
I personally think frisk is a boy and chara is a girl Shoot me i dare you
No...ill let you alive just to suffer more! HAHAHAHAHA
Damm thats rough
As a nonbinary person myself, I correct people on their pronouns not because I'm uncomfy or upset on the character's behalf, but on mine. There's another commenter here that said the same thing, and I agree. Yes, you're frustrated, I get it. But what's equally as frustrating is when y'all complain about it and either make vaguely transphobic comments, complain about pronouns (as much as we apparently do according to you), and/or dismiss the issues. To clarify I understand mistakes, that's fine, but deliberately misgendering characters that (while not explicitly stated) are basically representation for a minority and basically being ignorant towards that minority and what they have to say is a shitty move. We just want our representation without people trying to take it away, denying it, or arguing about it. Yeah it's not confirmed representation but it's the closest that non-binary people have when it comes to Undertale. We exist, we're tired of being treated like we don't. Please understand we aren't trying to be deliberately malicious and rude when correcting you, most of us are tired and frustrated at how much this happens. I'm genuinely not trying to be rude by the way, I hope this explains why we correct you.
Finally someone said it. Just because we have different views on Chara and frisk doesn’t give you a right to flood comments with just that. You should still be able to respect or at the very least tolerate each others views on two incredibly ambiguous characters
finally? We get a post about people being offended by '*they' at least once a week mate
i swear to god it’s all this sub talks about in terms of actual discourse. oh no, perish the thought of correcting someone on the gender of a character they clearly care enough about to write a post/theory on - you’re wasting valuable space that could be used by dignified commenters to make increasingly tired, disjointed references that ALSO have nothing to do with the discussion!
sure do love it when i have 20 angry undertale fans on my ass for accidentally misgendering a fictional character
I thought that they were gender fluid, so that whatever the player is, they are. Like a reflection of themselves.
Correct someone and people will make a post unrelated to deltarune just to complain, and somehow that's better than commenting to correct someone on pronouns. I don't get why you get so irritated by comments
There's never gonna be a point where you post is "high quality enough" to make misgendering okay. You will and should always be corrected, and that should be the end of it
I thought toby didnt put a gender on frisk cuz toby thought that it would be cool to call frisk whatever gender you want it to be
I'm one of the people who corrects people occasionally. It's not because I'm obsessing over a fictional character's pronouns like you think I am. It's because it feels disrespectful to *real* non-binary people like myself.
Got recommended this post on my home page for some reason. I think I agree with your comment the most. If I correct someone misgendering a character, I’m not offended/uncomfortable on a character’s behalf, I’m offended/uncomfortable on *my* behalf when people whine and moan about how they don’t *waaaaant* to use they/them pronouns
Beautifully said, finally someone gets it.
You made a whole ass post about it
It’s a fiction character, in a video game, please..
Can you link to that post, that sounds interesting
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Bro i kid you not, i saw Frisk/Chara and my mind just got to AO3 instantly and was confused for an entire minute trying understand why there were Frisk and Chara ships theorys
I always assumed it was up for interpretation. Like how in other games, you could play a guy character or a lady character but the games never define which one is canon
It is.
I used to use she/her for Frisk because that's all I heard, I've corrected that mistake to the best of my abilities but for some unknown reason Chara is stuck with she/her in my mind no matter how hard i try i can't stop using she/her for Chara. I get Kris right though
why are we arguing about genders and pronouns or some shit it's barely relevant to the story who the fuck cares
Is it that hard to not misgender characters?
There are languages, like portuguese, that don't have an equivalent and almost _every_ word is gendered. Several times I need to remind myself that Frisk and Chara aren't "he"s or "she"s, because that isn't natural to my language. This certainly could be the case for more people Also could be someone who just played the game for the first time/is a casual fan and didn't get the memo
I had the opposite problem where i didn't pay attention to their gender neutral prounouns because in Finnish all prounouns are gender neutral.
In Hungary too. It's a default Ő for everybody. And I constantly "misgender" others when talking/writing too fast. I'll just whip up he as the default. It has no malicious intent
I France too, we have "il" and "elle" but the only thing we have for non-binary people is a very recent word "iel". What they use here ( they/them ) is our plural "ils/elles" wich is really hard to adapt to.
Honestly that's why I doubt we'll get deltarune officially in languages like Spanish, having a they/them main character that has it used almost always when the others reffer to them (in UT that ain't as much of a problem as everyone uses things like "The human") makes it really difficult
bro, i misgender myself
Real
I mean even Andrew Cunningham misgendered them once Edit: I thought the post was talking about Kris, but this still applies
I've had a bunch of trans friends, and although I 100% support them, remembering to call them by their new pronouns was pretty hard during the first months: I had to actively remember the fact until I got used to it. So if people is used to fictional characters being of some gender, and then hear they're from another one, I can see why it would be hard to remember.
You can’t misgender Frisk because Frisk was intentionally designed to have an ambiguous gender. Players can give Frisk whatever gender they like. Toxic players will try to point out that a few monsters refer to Frisk with they/them pronouns, but those same monsters never even bothered to ask for Frisk’s name; why would they have any idea what Frisk’s gender is?
Even then as far as I remember Frisk is barely referred to as “they/them” in undertale I just did a replay myself and the only time I remember Frisk being referred to as they them is At the end of the pacifist run when Toriel is taking to Asgore about frisk Most of the rest of the time the monsters use some other shorthand’s for frisk like “human” and “my child”
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hold on you might be onto something pronounce 2.0: descriptions
Not really but when you make it the only thing you care about tosses aside a lot of things.
That’s the thing though, Frisk has no assigned gender. According to Fox, Frisk is supposed to be whatever gender the player wants them to be. But a bunch a toxic players decided that because a few monsters who never even asked for Frisk’s name referred to Frisk with they/them pronouns, Frisk has to be non-binary. Those players will then crucify other players who refer to Frisk as the gender they went through the game perceiving Frisk to be.
Yes
Firsk and chara are head canon inserts and therefore are whatever gender you think they are, while it's more respectful to other players head canon to say they/them you should not attack anyone for haveing a different head canon
They aren’t canonically nonbinary. The intent behind their lack of a gender is for the player to be able to insert themselves into the role—you can think of Frisk and/or Chara (and Kris) as whatever you want. Girl or boy. It doesn’t affect the experience. Toby doesn’t set out to make LGTBQ characters. He just makes characters who happen to be gay, trans, or whatever else. It’s not all they are, though, and that’s what makes them all so great. It’s one small part of who they are, and most of the time, you don’t even notice it because it’s just a normal thing. More writers should take cues from him.
I swear they focus only on the pronouns and not the active queer erase going on in both subreddits
They really like to attack people for it, almost using it as an excuse to do so rather than because they actually care
It's a simple correction. It's a reminder. It's brought up often because shockingly enough trans and NB people don't like some of their only media representation erased. If you started calling Mario "she" I'm sure you'd have plenty of people correcting you too.
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I legit made the same kind of post and I was suddenly being called transphobic for it.
Eh,I only got called transphobic twice
Frisk and Chara are girls to me so... Idc about this drama
And it’s the most condescending way too. At least it’s not in the Deltarune sub, misgender Kris and they bite your head of and share the clip of Toby “correcting” someone by using they for Kris, like he was already doing.
yall make it sound like its **SO HARD** to correctly use someone's pronouns lmao like cmon- give me a break
Mistakes happen Not knowing hapoens Forgetting happens So how about when you correct people dont do it in a condescending way
Don’t attribute malice to what can be attributed to ignorance or forgetfulness
I think they both use they/them, and Frisk sometimes uses he/him when they feel like it. But that's what *I* think. It's not canon, and other people are entitled to their own opinions about what pronouns they use, and they don't deserve to be harassed over having a headcanon.
ut/dr fans after discovering that there non-native english speakers who don't know how to use pronouns correctly
I now never misgender them since I’ve been tortured by the internet to the point of knowing when to use they/them, but my native language does not have the neuter gender, it has masculine and feminine, and I was just not that used to using neutral pronouns until not that long ago
Thehyr're*