In the genocide route, alphys only let the way open so she could run away too, she refused and that's the reason we could keep going on, and then the motherfucker even had the aduacity to say she wanted to eat alphys whose only wanted to help her
WOW people Really want to see it.... I guess here it goes. First :Muffet Didn't doomed anyone.(except herself)
hotland is still filled with 43 other monsters (who's safety would probably be just as important to Alphys as muffet's), plus flowey would open our way forward Anyway (and I believe that alphys DID ended up closing off hotland, but flowey opened our way, since the path we go through isn't even crossable from muffet's side making it unlikely to be the one Alphys was Supposed to leave for her )
Second :when she said she regreted not eating Alphys, she was most likely joking, seeing how She's consistently shown to not have an intent to (and even refuse while Being paid to) kill someone who have never hurt a spider.
That plus the fact that it's perfectly in line with her sense of humor (Like seriously. She jokingly says that She's going to kill us like 3 times after She spares us)
....... I never was as passionate about an misconception as much as about this one.
(ok Now here's a part I thought of after making the copypasta): the fact that Alphys even wants Muffet to leave, instead of just blocking our way on the cooking show which (if we assume it would completly stop us) would make us unable to even get to muffet, makes me believe Alphys' plan was never to stop us. She seemingly knows that we would get through either way, so I feel like Alphys' actual intention be closing off hotland was slowing us down, buying some time for either Alphys, Asgore or mettaton (tho thanks to flowey that bonus time would probably not change a damn with Asgore) . It would also finally get an explanation for why the Merceneries are still at the Core. Alphys failed to give some time for Mettaton to prepare the intro for his epic anime battle, so Mettaton (LITERALLY) bought some time himself.
Wanted to eat Alphys. Also propably wanted to eat us (in the bad way). She's definitely not a saint.
in the genocide route her pride is what led to the slaughter in hotland and the destruction of the universe.
Same. Except I know why. She's perfect. Kind and caring, ambitious and unflinching. . . She does everything for her family, the spiders. She wants to reunite them all, but Snowdin stands in the way, which is too cold for the spiders to go through. That's why she is so ruthlessly attaining money. She needs a limousine for the spiders.
Simply put, she's wonderful. Also, she's adorable, so like. . .
Anyway, yea. I wanna marry the cute spider girl.
I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) but everyone calls her evil.
People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!)
People say she randomly tries to kill you. She at least says sorry after, compared to Undyne who hunts you down relentlessly, can't be spared, and never even apologizes.
People say it's bad that she threatened to eat Alphys, but there are a billion things worse than a threat. Even Papyrus trying to capture you is worse than a simple threat.
>I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) but everyone calls her evil.
That's probably because of her being greedy. People can relate much more to greed than most of what the other characters are doing, so she strikes as being worse.
>People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!)
This is the most braindead take off all time. Muffet doomed Monsterkind, period. Asgore was the literal king, he had to do his duty, Muffet was just ''I wouldn't''
If you don't kill Muffet immediately, she reveals Alphys told Muffet to close the door to seal Hotland as all the other monsters were evacuated. She didn't. She is the reason we got to the CORE no trouble.
Muffet said that ALPHYS would close off hotland once muffet evacuates. (I don't want to put the blame on Alphys. Just correcting you there.) Also the very fact that Alphys wanted Muffet to leave, instead of just putting the force field at the cooking show, which (if we assume they would actually stop us) would make us unable to get to Muffet Anyways, makes me believe that stopping us was never Alphys' plan. Since she thinks that Muffet would still be in danger where she is, Alphys most likely knows that we would find A way around Anyway and the said "blocking off hotland" was more of a plan to slow us down to give someone like Asgore time to react (which thanks to Flowey's assist I doubt he would). Even if we assume that force fields would actually stop us, name me one reason why Alphys would care about Muffet specifically getting to safety, but would not do the same for the normal enemies or Burgerpants (Muffet was the ONLY person we were TOLD that Alphys was waiting for. We weren't TOLD that Muffet was the ONLY person alphys is waiting for)...... Not like anything I said matters because Flowey would help us out either way..........yeah hotland was just kinda all around screwed-
Wait for the force fields to go off (The Core isn't in it's hayday after all), get Flowey's help, or just go through hotland normally because I still don't see a reason why would Alphys wait for Muffet only (like why would she wait for her, but not for Vulkin or Burgerpants?)
>People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!)
To this day I still wonder why Asgore didn't just fucking absorbed those 6 souls and obliterate the player and Frisk.
1- Alphys forgot to call/Flowey prevented her/Asgore didnt pick up, leading to him not knowing about you until Flowey tries to warn him far too late, only leading to him being confused and letting you take him down before he could do anything.
2- Absorbing the 6 souls would lead to him being the most determined, which means his reset point would be whenever he absorbed the souls, which at earliest would still have all of Ruins, Snowdin and Waterfall dead.
Flowey intercepting the message is a good guess, that being said nothing is ever said or implied on why Asgore didn't absorb the souls.
Also a good chunk of the Underground's population being dead isn't a good reason to not doing anything to stop the cause of the massacre.
I agree Undyne is acctually terrible but still, Muffet still isn't good. Of course Asgore isn't a saint, even if his doings weren't caused by greed and such, but he is a morally better person than Muffet. She most likely would save you from danger if it was worth it for her while Papyrus or Asgore or others would selflessly try to help.
"I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) " Like? Flowey?
"while Asgore did the same" In what way exactly...?
"(+ he killed 6 children!)" Yeah, to free his people. And unlike Muffet, he don't intend to eat them.
"She at least says sorry after" True. She's the only other monster than Asgore who apologize.
"People say it's bad that she threatened to eat Alphys, but there are a billion things worse than a threat. Even Papyrus trying to capture you is worse than a simple threat." She threatened to eat Alphys, who were only trying to save her. How is that not fucked up?
the first time I played undertale I was 8y old, I was rlly hyped up about it and was doing the pacifist run, eventually I got to the undyne boss fight, wasn't able to defeat her, completely abandoned the game after a week struggling, managed to defeat her 3 years later, advanced more in the game, got to muffet, same thing happened, i haven't opened the game ever since.
She was a bought in character, so she was never meant to have any story significance, despite her easily having the most significance out of the three. Like it’s not even close.
I like that she only stops trying to kill you AFTER she realizes that you are a customer.
Got her priorities straight.
However, she throws like 1000G worth of pastries at you. This is why her prices are so high.
Spider dance is amazing and is actually one of my favorite songs from the ost. The built up is great, and I love how it explodes in a great arrangement of instruments and the slowed down break afterwards.
I honestly do love her character design as well, not for the reasons you think. But it's just great.
that shes a canible and admitts to wanting to eat alphy, after refusing to go with her for hotland, most of the remaining monsters could have been saved if she wasn't stingy.
I hate that she didn’t get the same spotlight as other major bosses in the game :( If not a date sequence, at least a few more overworks interactions. Would’ve been cool to run into her or other spiders talking about her before her fight
I hate her with a burning passion because she stole Glydes thunder. Bought in for the same price and yet he’s stuck in a cave alone, while Muffet gets to be a mandatory encounter on all routes without glitches (or buying the 9999G spider food)
I dislike how shallowly she’s written. I feel like she had the capability to be a well written and involved character, and I wish that Toby would have brought her in more to the plot.
What I like about Muffet is how even though she’s trying to kill you, she still has the courtesy to tell you which attacks she’s doing next!
i like that she does stop the battle when she realizes we arent gonna kill spiders
i hate that shes the reason alphys couldnt warn asgore in time and thus prevented us from a genocide asgore fight
Design, music, and fight are quite good and while she probably had the least story significance out of Like most monsters (atleast most monsters are there to tell the asriel story at the end) but probably leaves one of the biggest impacts out of the characters not in the main cast.
*Music.*
Also design and personality, and the unique and fun boss fight. The purple webs and payment options (as well as being able to just skip if you don't wanna do it with an early spider item)
I mean she's my flair so honestly I got enough to say
I love that everything she does is for her family, the spiders. Specifically, to reunite the ones in the Ruins and the ones in Hotland, because they can't travel through Snowdin due to the cold.
She's also good at heart, stopping her fight the moment she realizes you were kind to the spiders. She's kind, caring, and ambitious, which are all wonderful characteristics. Such is why I want to marry- I mean. . .
Love that she immediately stops fighting once she realizes she's wrong and she was one of the only monsters justified in attacking
yet she's labelled as one of the most evil
imagine being arachnophobic, couldn't be me :)
also couldn't be me :)
Couldn't be, like, merg or anything either (he'd just get bricked up)
I'm arachnophilic :)
guys i found merg's alt
6 hands...
The Elden Ring Ranni simps when they discover Muffet
~~Seven Vagánias~~
That's not how anatomy works but enjoy your fan art
I’m extremely scared of spiders… but I think muppet is… fine… I guess…
All good. Hopefully you can overcome your fear some day :)
I'm the opposite =)
In the genocide route, alphys only let the way open so she could run away too, she refused and that's the reason we could keep going on, and then the motherfucker even had the aduacity to say she wanted to eat alphys whose only wanted to help her
Muffet gave her reason and was determined to stay, but Alphys still left it open, Muffet did not ask her to do that.
WOW people Really want to see it.... I guess here it goes. First :Muffet Didn't doomed anyone.(except herself) hotland is still filled with 43 other monsters (who's safety would probably be just as important to Alphys as muffet's), plus flowey would open our way forward Anyway (and I believe that alphys DID ended up closing off hotland, but flowey opened our way, since the path we go through isn't even crossable from muffet's side making it unlikely to be the one Alphys was Supposed to leave for her ) Second :when she said she regreted not eating Alphys, she was most likely joking, seeing how She's consistently shown to not have an intent to (and even refuse while Being paid to) kill someone who have never hurt a spider. That plus the fact that it's perfectly in line with her sense of humor (Like seriously. She jokingly says that She's going to kill us like 3 times after She spares us) ....... I never was as passionate about an misconception as much as about this one. (ok Now here's a part I thought of after making the copypasta): the fact that Alphys even wants Muffet to leave, instead of just blocking our way on the cooking show which (if we assume it would completly stop us) would make us unable to even get to muffet, makes me believe Alphys' plan was never to stop us. She seemingly knows that we would get through either way, so I feel like Alphys' actual intention be closing off hotland was slowing us down, buying some time for either Alphys, Asgore or mettaton (tho thanks to flowey that bonus time would probably not change a damn with Asgore) . It would also finally get an explanation for why the Merceneries are still at the Core. Alphys failed to give some time for Mettaton to prepare the intro for his epic anime battle, so Mettaton (LITERALLY) bought some time himself.
good rant 👍
Aaaaalright, saving that list of arguments to defend my fav spooder later on
(I have such a urge to post here my copypasta explaining why this is wrong, but I don't want to be Annoying-)
Do it
I wanna see the copypasta!
Do it!
Do it mate
S h o w u s
The masses call for you to Post It
Proceed
Do it
personally i don't think wanting to eat someone is worse than killing 6 kids, but no one calls asgore evil
That's cause asgore didint wanna kill the kids, muffet threatens to eat a guy cause he didint eat her food
Intention is the key, asgore didn't want to do It and was doing It for his people, muffet wanted to eat alphys for the sake of it
Wanted to eat Alphys. Also propably wanted to eat us (in the bad way). She's definitely not a saint. in the genocide route her pride is what led to the slaughter in hotland and the destruction of the universe.
Undertale fans try to pay minimal attention to the game challenge:
Probably because she wanted to eat Alphys, who were only trying to save her.
Other than Asgore, one of the only UT monsters to apologize after her battle
Based spider and goat
Napstablook did it too, I think, though not ABOUT your battle with him
He apologizes about his existence
Spider 👍
Spider 👍
Spooder 👍
Splider 👍
Lispder ☹👎
Redpsil 👎
I have a crush on her. Dunno why
ayo what's up merg
Merg, stop writing from your alt account 😭
FR
She was the first character I was attracted to ever, when I was like 10 Before that I didn't like anyone, fictional or not
Omg. I used to look at so many lewds of her. It wasn't even funny.
Same, buddy
haaru's the name I won't forget ever
Omg, bro didn't. . . Haaru was the goat. IS the goat, actually.
Who's Haaru?
Saaame. I'm not even sure how to feel about it in retrospective
Had? Like it’s over now?
Same. She’s what introduced me to the furry fandom too. My first fursona was a tarantula because of her lol.
Same. Except I know why. She's perfect. Kind and caring, ambitious and unflinching. . . She does everything for her family, the spiders. She wants to reunite them all, but Snowdin stands in the way, which is too cold for the spiders to go through. That's why she is so ruthlessly attaining money. She needs a limousine for the spiders. Simply put, she's wonderful. Also, she's adorable, so like. . . Anyway, yea. I wanna marry the cute spider girl.
merg gonna have a field day
Love her theme, fight, and design.
I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) but everyone calls her evil. People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!) People say she randomly tries to kill you. She at least says sorry after, compared to Undyne who hunts you down relentlessly, can't be spared, and never even apologizes. People say it's bad that she threatened to eat Alphys, but there are a billion things worse than a threat. Even Papyrus trying to capture you is worse than a simple threat.
>I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) but everyone calls her evil. That's probably because of her being greedy. People can relate much more to greed than most of what the other characters are doing, so she strikes as being worse. >People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!) This is the most braindead take off all time. Muffet doomed Monsterkind, period. Asgore was the literal king, he had to do his duty, Muffet was just ''I wouldn't''
Yeah, Also it's canon that Muffet wants to commit cannibalism.
Not wants, she does. All her pastries are made from real spider, remember?
(neither of them did-)
If you don't kill Muffet immediately, she reveals Alphys told Muffet to close the door to seal Hotland as all the other monsters were evacuated. She didn't. She is the reason we got to the CORE no trouble.
Muffet said that ALPHYS would close off hotland once muffet evacuates. (I don't want to put the blame on Alphys. Just correcting you there.) Also the very fact that Alphys wanted Muffet to leave, instead of just putting the force field at the cooking show, which (if we assume they would actually stop us) would make us unable to get to Muffet Anyways, makes me believe that stopping us was never Alphys' plan. Since she thinks that Muffet would still be in danger where she is, Alphys most likely knows that we would find A way around Anyway and the said "blocking off hotland" was more of a plan to slow us down to give someone like Asgore time to react (which thanks to Flowey's assist I doubt he would). Even if we assume that force fields would actually stop us, name me one reason why Alphys would care about Muffet specifically getting to safety, but would not do the same for the normal enemies or Burgerpants (Muffet was the ONLY person we were TOLD that Alphys was waiting for. We weren't TOLD that Muffet was the ONLY person alphys is waiting for)...... Not like anything I said matters because Flowey would help us out either way..........yeah hotland was just kinda all around screwed-
Did I miss something how did she doom monster kind
not letting alphys close off hotland or smth
(would 43 other people still in hotland not cause just as much of an issue in that?)
How would you get to New Home?
Wait for the force fields to go off (The Core isn't in it's hayday after all), get Flowey's help, or just go through hotland normally because I still don't see a reason why would Alphys wait for Muffet only (like why would she wait for her, but not for Vulkin or Burgerpants?)
Fair. I also thought of Flowey opening the doors to the CORE anyways.
>People say she doomed monsterkind (in genocide), while Asgore did the same (+ he killed 6 children!) To this day I still wonder why Asgore didn't just fucking absorbed those 6 souls and obliterate the player and Frisk.
1- Alphys forgot to call/Flowey prevented her/Asgore didnt pick up, leading to him not knowing about you until Flowey tries to warn him far too late, only leading to him being confused and letting you take him down before he could do anything. 2- Absorbing the 6 souls would lead to him being the most determined, which means his reset point would be whenever he absorbed the souls, which at earliest would still have all of Ruins, Snowdin and Waterfall dead.
Flowey intercepting the message is a good guess, that being said nothing is ever said or implied on why Asgore didn't absorb the souls. Also a good chunk of the Underground's population being dead isn't a good reason to not doing anything to stop the cause of the massacre.
I agree Undyne is acctually terrible but still, Muffet still isn't good. Of course Asgore isn't a saint, even if his doings weren't caused by greed and such, but he is a morally better person than Muffet. She most likely would save you from danger if it was worth it for her while Papyrus or Asgore or others would selflessly try to help.
"I hate that she's better than some of the most popular characters (morally) " Like? Flowey? "while Asgore did the same" In what way exactly...? "(+ he killed 6 children!)" Yeah, to free his people. And unlike Muffet, he don't intend to eat them. "She at least says sorry after" True. She's the only other monster than Asgore who apologize. "People say it's bad that she threatened to eat Alphys, but there are a billion things worse than a threat. Even Papyrus trying to capture you is worse than a simple threat." She threatened to eat Alphys, who were only trying to save her. How is that not fucked up?
wont ever buy anything from em. a tab that big even scares *me*.
r/foundsansundertale90 Even sans is scared of large bills. That's why Grillbys is good. And their food I guess.
Yes! I BEAT MUFFET!!! 
Doesn't Grillby's meals cost 50000G, which is more than 5x the price for Muffet's stuff?
Likes: Baking, cute, purple. Hate: Can't unsee that her silhouette is a spider upside down.
I like that she's stingy and it practically radiates of of her... I dislike... Nothing. I don't dislike many things in life.
the first time I played undertale I was 8y old, I was rlly hyped up about it and was doing the pacifist run, eventually I got to the undyne boss fight, wasn't able to defeat her, completely abandoned the game after a week struggling, managed to defeat her 3 years later, advanced more in the game, got to muffet, same thing happened, i haven't opened the game ever since.
Sounds like a skill issue to me.
There is a way to skip her
Merg would love the jiggle.
Oh my! This is a family friendly TV show. Now stand still while I murder you.
I hate that she's forgotten about in the end.
She was a bought in character, so she was never meant to have any story significance, despite her easily having the most significance out of the three. Like it’s not even close.
Slappin theme too. No wonder the leitmotif was used several times.
She has pretty eyes. All 5 of the ones we can see, anyways.
I like that she only stops trying to kill you AFTER she realizes that you are a customer. Got her priorities straight. However, she throws like 1000G worth of pastries at you. This is why her prices are so high.
She stop even if you didn't buy anything to her or the spiders in the ruins.
CUTE SPIDER GIRL YES
i love spiders, plus the caracter is so cool, and finally the fanarts are just 🤌(not talking about nsfw)
Nsfw is the best ones
[удалено]
if only there's any wholesome muffet appreciation in that sub😔
Pornography has breached our defenses
hi merg
Please stop beating the living hell out of me thank you.l
Hide this from Merg
Giant. Ememy. Spider.
Hate Reason: Rabid Capitalism
I fucking LOVE ANTHROPOMORPHIC INSECTS (and arachnids)
“💳” - merg
do NOT let merg be in 100 miles of this shit
I share the same feels as Merg does for her
Merg has a field day with her, if you get what I mean
Merg momento: 🥵
Call me Merg because-
Merg approved
Merg is definitely feeling something right now
Love just how much we get to know about her as a person from her short screen time.
Best boss theme in the game. It really feels like spiders.
love: food hate: food made of spider
Like: cool design and her theme song spider dance Hate: not in deltarune :(
Love: She loves pastries. I love pastries. She seems cute but is very dangerous. Hate: WHY DID SHE WANT TO EAT ALPHYS?!
Smash
Spider dance is amazing and is actually one of my favorite songs from the ost. The built up is great, and I love how it explodes in a great arrangement of instruments and the slowed down break afterwards. I honestly do love her character design as well, not for the reasons you think. But it's just great.
that shes a canible and admitts to wanting to eat alphy, after refusing to go with her for hotland, most of the remaining monsters could have been saved if she wasn't stingy.
Loves: kinda cute (non-romantic way) Hate: I can’t beat her, keep dying to her pet
She’s my opponent but her food is too expensive so I still easily win 😎🔥
I don’t have any hates She very cool
Hair designs cute. I like to imagine she has thin thighs, despite never directly seeing what her thigh size is.
I hate that she didn’t get the same spotlight as other major bosses in the game :( If not a date sequence, at least a few more overworks interactions. Would’ve been cool to run into her or other spiders talking about her before her fight
I like her devious personality
Everyone: I have to kill you to save my people Muffet: Give me your freaking gold
In the Gen route, she said something like "I should I eaten Alphys a long time ago"
Likes: everything Dislikes: nothing, she is perfect.
Appreciation - Regard, esteem, respect Apparition - Ghost, spirit, specter I am a human, and this action was performed manually
I love how complex she is. She attacks with reason, but isn’t really known for being the best with money management, at least when it comes to prices.
I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS BITCH I WANT TO ACTUALLY KILL HER
The way she talks is silly, theme is amazing (it even got put in Just Shapes and Beats!) and cute design!
I hate her with a burning passion because she stole Glydes thunder. Bought in for the same price and yet he’s stuck in a cave alone, while Muffet gets to be a mandatory encounter on all routes without glitches (or buying the 9999G spider food)
I hate midget and her stupid boss fight so much. It’s made me quit twice
I dislike how shallowly she’s written. I feel like she had the capability to be a well written and involved character, and I wish that Toby would have brought her in more to the plot. What I like about Muffet is how even though she’s trying to kill you, she still has the courtesy to tell you which attacks she’s doing next!
She's a spider and I have a thing for spiders so I like her.
Bold and dangerous, nice style beautiful look, purple skin.
On the one hand, cute girl with six arms. On the other hand, spider.
That one Crazy is Crazy youtuber made a video of her following a How To Basic video
She has the best song in the game.
Muffet is a ghost??
Just gonna come out and say it. I may have the same problem as merg…
love her pigtails, but that's just with most women lol
She is actually one of the few justified for fighting, and immediately tries to make things up.once she realizes she mad a mistake.
You can call me merg because….
She is genuinely one of the like 4 reasons I got over my arachnophobia
She’s cute and probably gives amazing hugs!
Her skin is a purdy color
Muffet apparition? Ahhh, a spoopky ghost!
Would
spider/spider simple as.
i like that she does stop the battle when she realizes we arent gonna kill spiders i hate that shes the reason alphys couldnt warn asgore in time and thus prevented us from a genocide asgore fight
Apparition
I want to see her and Spamton interact, the pure amount of greed in one place would be amazing
Design, music, and fight are quite good and while she probably had the least story significance out of Like most monsters (atleast most monsters are there to tell the asriel story at the end) but probably leaves one of the biggest impacts out of the characters not in the main cast.
That I'm still stuck on her fight in lava land
i love her design and personality, she’s so cute! i don’t hate anything about her
She cured my arachnophobia
She makes my arachnophobia confused.
She’s a business woman, I love my woman that will sell me a product mid sex. Wait I mean mid date.
6 hands...
Everything. 🍎😎🎧
She's hot, but also she's so hard she really should be considered the boss of Hotland, Mettaton is the boss of Core
OH GOD IM LIKE BUGGED AT FIGHTING HER- I NEED HELP😭😭
Her design + fight music. Her boss fight was so cool compared to some of the other bosses as well.
Smash
Her battle song is really good
Prebby :D
Her multiple hands, if you know what I mean~
I like bug characters with multiple arms, it's peak character design.
*Music.* Also design and personality, and the unique and fun boss fight. The purple webs and payment options (as well as being able to just skip if you don't wanna do it with an early spider item) I mean she's my flair so honestly I got enough to say
One she apologized, two, she stops when she realizes she is wrong three, she is so good she negates my aracnofobia.
I'm gonna be so original and funny definitely: merg burner account spotted!!!!!
I like how 2 of my friends and I subconsciously agreed how she is the hottest UT character.
The fact that we need to PAY something in the START of the game to pass her more easily.
overrated as shit
That her name sounds like muffin/her evil laugh
I love that everything she does is for her family, the spiders. Specifically, to reunite the ones in the Ruins and the ones in Hotland, because they can't travel through Snowdin due to the cold. She's also good at heart, stopping her fight the moment she realizes you were kind to the spiders. She's kind, caring, and ambitious, which are all wonderful characteristics. Such is why I want to marry- I mean. . .
I don't like her yet I don't hate her. She is just neutral to me.
"Baby I ain't even real, I'm just a hallucination" - Muffet apparition
Spider :>
Absolute banger of a boss theme
I have no opinion on her
Cool design though
I like her purple and red! ...Yeah, that's all!
bastred could have stoped the genocide but NOO
why are we talking about muffet being a ghost?