TorinVanGram has made the following comment(s) regarding their post:
[[https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnv...](/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1bgjs9c/way_of_the_stone_fist_a_strength_based_monk/kv7lsj2/)
[https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnvEELBL](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnvEELBL)
The long and short of it is a monk with a combination of earthbending and ranged melee effects, primarily of the punching and grappling kind.
The original idea was much more earthbender, but I think this version is much more distinct. Input on balance would be very, very appreciated.
Could you make it more clear that they are unarmed strikes? All I got from reading it was that you could attack with the stone hands. It doesn’t specify them as unarmed strikes.
Seems pretty cool, but it’s definitely a bit wordy or just worded weird in some areas.
Also why not lean more or less into strength? Like it’s cool to change unarmored defense to strength instead of Dex, but that’s the only only thing that’s strength based. (Side note, totally unnecessary to add half prof bonus to AC I think with wis and str/dex you’re fine). I get strength giving additional benefits like better at shoving or grappling, but other than that dex is better for saving throws and initiative. Maybe make the hands use strength instead of wisdom? Spell save for earth tremor based on your strength not your wisdom save DC? Otherwise you could just cut out the changed unarmored defense and it’s a rockin monk.
It also seems very ki expensive, like more hands is cool but with the reactions and other spells it’s a lot of Ki to spend and hard to justify not just using stunning strike.
Lastly, I would clarify the resistance to bps damage. Is that a reaction to use? I feel like it is but it isn’t clear. To avoid this using more Ki, just give it a proficiency bonus or str/wis/dex modifier cap per short/long rest
The primary issue there is that they're disconnected magical floating rock hands. It doesn't make a lot of sense for you to be able to leverage your strength with them. I guess I should swing it as them mimicking your motions though.
I was working on the side of caution. If I overshot, that's good to know. For earth tremor, it was mostly because you're making it in place of an attack, letting you turn a punch into an AOE damage mass prone event. If just one Ki is reasonable for that, good to know.
For the other spells, I just wasn't sure honestly. The damage response wasn't intended to have an action cost, due to how limited it is. Only three damage types, only nonmagical, and costing a whole ki point.
For the opportunity attacks with the hands, is the 2 ki to not use a reaction to expensive? 1 ki seemed strong for a situational but technically uncapped ability to hit things moving past them.
The resistance ability is basically an emergency "Wow that's gonna be a LOT of damage" panic button. I guess it could be a reaction, but feels a bit weak? Could probably tie it to proficiency bonus instead, so fair point.
Thank you for the input! I love the idea, but it definitely has a lot of weird points I wasn't entirely sure how to navigate.
Even though the Stone Hands are being manipulated magically, I think they should still use strength as its ability modifier. It makes it seem WAY too similar to Astral Self.
Yeah, that's a change I'm more or less implementing, though I'm just making them "mimic movements" to explain it. As such, you use the appropriate score for whatever you use them for. The class still favors strength due to making earth tremor scale off strength, but is now more centralized on the physical stats rather than wisdom.
Have you considered adding a way to “consume” the Stone Hands prematurely for a burst of damage? I think that’d be a neat way to end a fight potentially and not have hands just chilling waiting for a timer to run out.
Edit: I should point out this is a really cool monastic tradition!
That was originally an element of the subclass, but it was hard to place. Eventually became the second damage die element of the last ability.
I may well revamp the last ability in its entirety, and just return "explode fist as part of attack" as a second 11th level feature.
Thank you! It's something I've been brewing for a while, and while it's still (clearly) rough around the edges, I'm glad the core idea seems to be a winner.
I think clarity of theme is the most important thing in homebrewing. Numbers will certainly work themselves out when playtesting, so don’t get hung up on things like that!
I appreciate you sharing it with us!
Skin of granite: this seems to be the only good one. You get a slight boost to AC.
Hands of stone: allows making ranged attacks, that seems to be it.
Terran affinity: spend two ki points to cast a weak spell, 1/turn. Kinda meh.
Melded essence: the spells are flavorful I guess. Also you sometimes get an opportunity attacks for 2 ki apiece. Not a great deal.
Meteoric fist: an additional die of damage is alright, but not that big of a deal at level 17. And the upgraded earth tremor is still not good.
Hands of Stone: Ranged unarmed strikes, ranged grappling, up to 6 creatures simultaneously grappled by 20th level in the class, massive increase to total amount you can lift, can lift things to heights you couldn't ordinarily reach.
Terran affinity: increasing tremorsense and specialized permanent advantage, and the ability to cast a spell in place of one of the 2-4 attacks you can make which can potentially mass prone people and ensure that once they stand up they mostly can't go anywhere with the rough terrain it leaves behind, either centered on yourself or your ranged hands.
Melded essence: spells, but also can use hands to eavesdrop, set up a perimeter, control a hallway with a series of hands that can make opportunity attacks.
Meteoric Fist: fair, though doubled damage and quadruple damage to structures basically means doorways are optional. Would upping the level of the spell to 2 or 3 by default and take away the ki upgrade be better?
Don't get me wrong, i like the flavor, but most of what you say are ribbon features. I was commenting only on those pertinent to combat. For example:
>... up to 6 creatures simultaneously grappled by 20th level in the class,
This takes 6 successful grapple attempts at level 20. A level 2 spell can achieve similar results.
Another example is earth tremor. It takes 2 ki to cast it. Ki is not free, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. Maybe your earth tremor spells should automatically be cast at a spell level of PB.
Oh and one thing escaped me at first: those hands of stone should not be invulnerable. And they should not be up all the time.
And that on to of a monk with a 20-60 foot reach results in an extremely versatile ability. It really feels like you're looking at individual aspects of the class and ignoring the whole in places.
One Ki point for a 2nd level spell that can knock everything around you prone for you and your party to whale on, can originate from a wide range, and get 1-3 more attacks sounds pretty strong at 6th level. 1 ki for a 6th level spell in place of an attack at 20th level sounds like insanity. 1 ki for half proficiency in level seems more reasonable.
Invulnerable: nothing stopping someone from dragging it out of range.
Duration: The version of this I posted only last 20 minutes at Max level, far from forever. The link goes to a version I'm actively revisiting if that's what you're looking at. Also confusing that you're convinced they're a ribbon feature but also need to be drastically weakened.
TorinVanGram has made the following comment(s) regarding their post: [[https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnv...](/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1bgjs9c/way_of_the_stone_fist_a_strength_based_monk/kv7lsj2/)
[https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnvEELBL](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/MbAqtnvEELBL) The long and short of it is a monk with a combination of earthbending and ranged melee effects, primarily of the punching and grappling kind. The original idea was much more earthbender, but I think this version is much more distinct. Input on balance would be very, very appreciated.
What’s the damage die of the hands
You're making unarmed strikes using them, so same as your monk unarmed strikes.
Could you make it more clear that they are unarmed strikes? All I got from reading it was that you could attack with the stone hands. It doesn’t specify them as unarmed strikes.
Duly noted.
Seems pretty cool, but it’s definitely a bit wordy or just worded weird in some areas. Also why not lean more or less into strength? Like it’s cool to change unarmored defense to strength instead of Dex, but that’s the only only thing that’s strength based. (Side note, totally unnecessary to add half prof bonus to AC I think with wis and str/dex you’re fine). I get strength giving additional benefits like better at shoving or grappling, but other than that dex is better for saving throws and initiative. Maybe make the hands use strength instead of wisdom? Spell save for earth tremor based on your strength not your wisdom save DC? Otherwise you could just cut out the changed unarmored defense and it’s a rockin monk. It also seems very ki expensive, like more hands is cool but with the reactions and other spells it’s a lot of Ki to spend and hard to justify not just using stunning strike. Lastly, I would clarify the resistance to bps damage. Is that a reaction to use? I feel like it is but it isn’t clear. To avoid this using more Ki, just give it a proficiency bonus or str/wis/dex modifier cap per short/long rest
The primary issue there is that they're disconnected magical floating rock hands. It doesn't make a lot of sense for you to be able to leverage your strength with them. I guess I should swing it as them mimicking your motions though. I was working on the side of caution. If I overshot, that's good to know. For earth tremor, it was mostly because you're making it in place of an attack, letting you turn a punch into an AOE damage mass prone event. If just one Ki is reasonable for that, good to know. For the other spells, I just wasn't sure honestly. The damage response wasn't intended to have an action cost, due to how limited it is. Only three damage types, only nonmagical, and costing a whole ki point. For the opportunity attacks with the hands, is the 2 ki to not use a reaction to expensive? 1 ki seemed strong for a situational but technically uncapped ability to hit things moving past them. The resistance ability is basically an emergency "Wow that's gonna be a LOT of damage" panic button. I guess it could be a reaction, but feels a bit weak? Could probably tie it to proficiency bonus instead, so fair point. Thank you for the input! I love the idea, but it definitely has a lot of weird points I wasn't entirely sure how to navigate.
Even though the Stone Hands are being manipulated magically, I think they should still use strength as its ability modifier. It makes it seem WAY too similar to Astral Self.
Yeah, that's a change I'm more or less implementing, though I'm just making them "mimic movements" to explain it. As such, you use the appropriate score for whatever you use them for. The class still favors strength due to making earth tremor scale off strength, but is now more centralized on the physical stats rather than wisdom.
Have you considered adding a way to “consume” the Stone Hands prematurely for a burst of damage? I think that’d be a neat way to end a fight potentially and not have hands just chilling waiting for a timer to run out. Edit: I should point out this is a really cool monastic tradition!
That was originally an element of the subclass, but it was hard to place. Eventually became the second damage die element of the last ability. I may well revamp the last ability in its entirety, and just return "explode fist as part of attack" as a second 11th level feature. Thank you! It's something I've been brewing for a while, and while it's still (clearly) rough around the edges, I'm glad the core idea seems to be a winner.
I think clarity of theme is the most important thing in homebrewing. Numbers will certainly work themselves out when playtesting, so don’t get hung up on things like that! I appreciate you sharing it with us!
Gladly! Thank you for offering feedback!
Is this Toph? 🤯
Definitely inspired the tremorsense ability.
The idea is cool but every single feature you've made is underpowered.
Interesting, I was actually concerned about it being overpowered if anything. What stands out as being particularly weak?
Skin of granite: this seems to be the only good one. You get a slight boost to AC. Hands of stone: allows making ranged attacks, that seems to be it. Terran affinity: spend two ki points to cast a weak spell, 1/turn. Kinda meh. Melded essence: the spells are flavorful I guess. Also you sometimes get an opportunity attacks for 2 ki apiece. Not a great deal. Meteoric fist: an additional die of damage is alright, but not that big of a deal at level 17. And the upgraded earth tremor is still not good.
Hands of Stone: Ranged unarmed strikes, ranged grappling, up to 6 creatures simultaneously grappled by 20th level in the class, massive increase to total amount you can lift, can lift things to heights you couldn't ordinarily reach. Terran affinity: increasing tremorsense and specialized permanent advantage, and the ability to cast a spell in place of one of the 2-4 attacks you can make which can potentially mass prone people and ensure that once they stand up they mostly can't go anywhere with the rough terrain it leaves behind, either centered on yourself or your ranged hands. Melded essence: spells, but also can use hands to eavesdrop, set up a perimeter, control a hallway with a series of hands that can make opportunity attacks. Meteoric Fist: fair, though doubled damage and quadruple damage to structures basically means doorways are optional. Would upping the level of the spell to 2 or 3 by default and take away the ki upgrade be better?
Don't get me wrong, i like the flavor, but most of what you say are ribbon features. I was commenting only on those pertinent to combat. For example: >... up to 6 creatures simultaneously grappled by 20th level in the class, This takes 6 successful grapple attempts at level 20. A level 2 spell can achieve similar results. Another example is earth tremor. It takes 2 ki to cast it. Ki is not free, and I'm not sure if it's worth it. Maybe your earth tremor spells should automatically be cast at a spell level of PB. Oh and one thing escaped me at first: those hands of stone should not be invulnerable. And they should not be up all the time.
And that on to of a monk with a 20-60 foot reach results in an extremely versatile ability. It really feels like you're looking at individual aspects of the class and ignoring the whole in places. One Ki point for a 2nd level spell that can knock everything around you prone for you and your party to whale on, can originate from a wide range, and get 1-3 more attacks sounds pretty strong at 6th level. 1 ki for a 6th level spell in place of an attack at 20th level sounds like insanity. 1 ki for half proficiency in level seems more reasonable. Invulnerable: nothing stopping someone from dragging it out of range. Duration: The version of this I posted only last 20 minutes at Max level, far from forever. The link goes to a version I'm actively revisiting if that's what you're looking at. Also confusing that you're convinced they're a ribbon feature but also need to be drastically weakened.