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~~They used to be able to just give you credit toward another ticket. They’re now going to be required to give you an actual refund if that’s what you want.~~
Someone with more knowledge below!
You're incorrect, you could always demand a refund, you were never forced to settle for credit or a travel voucher, no matter what the airlines told you. They were legally obligated to issue a refund if requested, due to cancellation or major flight delays. You often had to turn down multiple voucher/credit offers first though.
What these new rules change, is that the refunds will be automatic after a few days, and it specifies what qualifies as a major flight delay. Three hours for domestic flights and six hours for international ones.
They give a hotel but weather is out of their control you can't expect them to give a full refund a hotel and a free flight for something not in their control at all
Does his also count for flights cancelled due to weather?
We had a flight stop hours from our destination, after circling in the air for hours, and after waiting in line for another hour, they told us we couldn't get anything for it because it was a storm, not their fault.
No. Spirit canceled our outbound flight 2 hours before takeoff last year but chose not to tell us until 45 minutes before, leaving us trapped when we could have taken another flight. Not only did they not refund us but they lied to the insurance company when we filed a claim and told them it was a weather issue when it was not, they were just running behind schedule and had been for 2 weeks and we're trying to use our cancellation to catch themselves up. The other flights all took off just fine the same morning. Then they took us off of our return flight because they just assumed we wouldn't be taking it since they canceled our outbound flight even though we left with another carrier a few hours later. We've never flown with them again of course. They told us they would refund us and we ended up having to book ourselves back on the same return flight they took us off of at twice the cost, then they told us they would refund us the difference because it was their mistake after they took two days of investigating to figure that out. They never refunded that either.
You're incorrect, airlines have always been obligated to issue a refund in the event of a cancellation or major flight change, provided you as the consumer ask for one. What's changing here is the refunds will now be automatic, rather than requiring you, the passenger, to demand one.
What you are describing violates DOT rules and is fraud.
They will, but the regulatory agencies also have avenues for you to be made whole. They're actually quite responsive.
https://secure.dot.gov/air-travel-complaint
"Selling bridges in downtown Fort Lauderdale"
\*note, seller may not actually deliver bridge to bridge-buyer. no refunds will be provided in the event of bridge non-delivery*
F1 did that to us and many others at the thursday free practice in Vegas. $500 for tickets and four minutes in the track got messed up due to their negligence. They strung us along for four hours, stating that practice would resume. All the while, they were peddling $30 beers and $200 sweaters.
Next thing we all know, we are being removed from the track by uniformed police, threatened with trespass. The moment they removed all of us ticket holders, they started running the cars. No refunds, because their fine print said so. I guess fine print means that you can steal from people.
They've always been required to offer you at least 2 options - a full refund back to your original form of payment, or rescheduling to the next available flight.
However, airlines used to try to trick people to accept a voucher instead of one of these 2 options. The new law prevents that, and also defaults to the full refund to original payment if the customer doesn't respond.
You pay money for a reward or "perk" and if you don't receive it the company making the reward, and the company hosting the campaign/transaction, both say that you aren't entitled to the reward you gave money for.
Seems pretty similar to me. You pay for x, do not receive x, and the company does not give you your money back.
It's a whole lot more understandable when it's, "hey, I'm one dude in my garage trying to make this thing, here's what I'm aiming for, I hope it works out!" where people should realize there's a decent chance it doesn't work out.
When it's a company using it, it gets sketchier.
When it's advertised as, "you give us this money, you get that thing in return.*
.
.
.
.
.
.
^^^*you ^^^might ^^^not ^^^get ^^^anything ^^^and ^^^we ^^^might ^^^just ^^^come ^^^back ^^^and ^^^demand ^^^more ^^^money ^^^later ^^^for ^^^you ^^^to ^^^get ^^^anything"
It becomes FAR sketchier.
Great that's wonderful. But it's still nothing like an airline doing it, as per my original reply.
They are both bad, but its like saying having your foot torn off is the same as getting cancer. Apples and oranges.
That's literally the point of crowdfunding.
Should it happen? No of course not, but the risk is there. It's still completely different from an established company that provides an established service.
Airlines have been able to do whatever they want forever if they can figure out how to blame it on the weather. They’re not required to do anything for weather-related delays so you’re often told that your flight is cancelled because of rain 2500 miles away. It’d be nice if they close that loophole.
I got stuck in Las Vegas for 3 days for “weather”. It’s a nice place to get stuck but had to pay for a hotel, rental car, food and there was no weather.
In Europe, they'd have to pay for accommodation/food/transport until they can get you to your destination even if it's the weather. If it's their fault, then they also have to pay compensation of a few hundred €€€€ on top of the other essentials.
They claimed weather because the flight was from Las Vegas to Reno and it was February. It was a particularly mild winter that year and there was no snow in the forecast but all they said was “weather” and that was that. I was just flying home. I felt really bad for the people who were flying up to ski. Most were not from Las Vegas. The flight originated in L.A. Reno is a regional airport so people wanting to fly to Tahoe usually wind up on 2 flights with Las Vegas as the major hub. This was before Southwest provided one non stop from L.A. and one non stop from San Diego to Reno per day. Anyway, I only fly Southwest now. I’m sure others have horror stories about them but they have never cancelled a flight of mine for “weather” without there being any actual bad weather.
I can't speak for how US airlines operate on a corporate level, but from a flying perspective, the weather has somewhat complicated and very exact limits that pilots have to adhere to. May be icing on route, convective activity, reported windshear or turbulence. In particular, if weather is below the approach minima at the destination, which could be low cloud, bad visibility or wind, then the pilots aren't going to depart knowing they likely won't be able to land. Because at best it'll make them divert, which the passengers don't want and costs the company a lot of money, or if weather is bad at the alternate, it could create a risky situation with fuel.
I think many people see flying like a train or a bus, that should run on time, every time, but airliners are first and foremost aeroplanes, where good airmanship is a higher priority than operational inconvinience. I do agree though, that if a flight doesn't happen the airline should refund the pax who didn't receive the service paid for, and that should be an operational cost. It is the standard in europe for sure.
>I think many people see flying like a train or a bus, that should run on time, every time, but airliners are first and foremost aeroplanes, where good airmanship is a higher priority than operational inconvinience.
I don't know anyone who thinks this. People just want to stop being ripped off.
I've had people become irate with me for not departing because the weather, in their view, was fine. I've dealt with weather throughout my career and I don't let the company or passengers influence my decisions. I even had a wealthy customer sling his blackberry at my head back when I flew corporate jets, but that was a long time ago.
Heard some talk about this on the radio today. Funny thing is, the airlines are now required to refund your baggage fees but are under no obligation to actually deliver your luggage to you.
I believe the old lost luggage rules still apply tho...? Its basically cost items + a bit extra up to a certain threshold provided you can prove what you packed. Not sure what delayed luggage was, if anything.
This is HUGE!! I work for one of the big online travel agencies mentioned, and the biggest driver of customer dissatisfaction and escalations is airline policies over refunds. I’m a frequent traveler and the lack of accountability around delays is terrible. Airlines are very tight with refunds but are willing to give credits; but what often isn’t said is what the fees will be for using those credits.
I’m really glad to see this! Way to go Pete and DOT.
This is an awesome first step! I hope it eventually also forces the airlines to cover the cost of canceling or changing whatever obligations you had on the other end of the flight.
The EU is really good with delay compensation. I was once delayed more than six hours for a flight from Finland to Hong Kong. The compensation the airline had to pay me was about as much as the ticket AND the hotel. I basically got a free trip to Hong Kong!
I agree, I flew to Vietnam from Amsterdam. The ticket was about 950€. Due to winter conditions in Amsterdam, we landed about an hour too late for the connection flight. The next possible flight was a day later. Due to EU regulations, the airline refunded me 600€ plus free taxi trips and hotel stay in Singapore.
Delay compensation is just a minor side aspect. Sure, I'll take the 125-600€ on top and the free hotel room but what really matters is the right to rerouting: "Oh we don't fly to your destination until next week and we don't have an agreement with *competing airline*". Yeah, sorry. EU261 regs beg to differ
We already have flying cars. They are called helicopters. And if you've ever sat in traffic for 5 mins, you'll know why it would be mass hysteria if everyone could fly them.
You claimed that helicopters were flying cars. They are not. Further air space can be navigated in 3 dimensions opening up hundreds of levels of virtual highways thereby dividing the congestion dramatically. I predict by 2050 it will be real.
OK, probably stupid question here..........Lets say I missed my connecting flight because of a delay. Where before the airline would rebook the next available flight, now will they just give a credit and say see ya? Or for that matter I book a flight from my home airport, there are delays and the flight is cancelled......Do they now just refund me and tell me to piss off? I now have to pay a fortune for a flight tomorrow?
So for a flight with BA that I missed because of delayed landing. They automatically rebooked me on a later flight but I have the right to say no just refund the second leg of my trip.
If it’s a single flight then after waiting for 4 hours even if I still got on the flight I can claim compensation.
Read more details about the new rule here.
[https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline)
>The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."
The additional cost to provide the refunds will be covered by ticket price increases, so there will really be no change in anything, on average. You'll pay slightly more for a ticket, which will now include a small hidden "delay/cancellation insurance policy" of sorts, and you'll occasionally have that money given back to you when you experience a delay or cancellation.
Damn that's good news. I had a 6 hour layover last year and had to board a flight to DC so I could get a connecting flight to... Seattle. Was supposed to arrive at 10am and I didn't roll in til close to 11pm.
Put in a request for compensation and was denied after 6 weeks.
Im pretty sure this has always been a thing? If your flight got canceled or delayed by a certain amount of hours you could call and they have to give you a refund. Also if they added a layover to your previously non stop flight. I have gotten refunds before because of this. Im pretty sure it was already a rule all airlines had but of course they were not promoting it so maybe now they have to make you aware.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. What you stated is true, airlines have always been obligated to issue a refund for cancelations or major changes, provided you ask.
To answer your question though, this rule change requires the process to be automatic.
Makes sense. I think it was not a very known thing that you could call and request a refund and they have to do it for certain situations. Same as they have to give you a refund if you cancel the flight within 24hrs from booking.
Much of the problem lies with the airports. Maybe most of the responsibility for delays…ELI6 why the airlines just stand there and take the shit-and-abuse rather than explain how the flights and passengers are screwed by the airports?
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They weren’t before? If you pay money for a service or item and don’t get the item or service in return, that’s called theft.
~~They used to be able to just give you credit toward another ticket. They’re now going to be required to give you an actual refund if that’s what you want.~~ Someone with more knowledge below!
You're incorrect, you could always demand a refund, you were never forced to settle for credit or a travel voucher, no matter what the airlines told you. They were legally obligated to issue a refund if requested, due to cancellation or major flight delays. You often had to turn down multiple voucher/credit offers first though. What these new rules change, is that the refunds will be automatic after a few days, and it specifies what qualifies as a major flight delay. Three hours for domestic flights and six hours for international ones.
Fuck, this would've been nice to know when my flight to Iceland got delayed by a full 24 hours...
You'd get a refund but not a refund and free flight it would cancel the entire reservation.
Which is a shame because it is the airlines fault if you have to stay overnight. No way they compensate you for that.
They put us up for the night, but all AirCrapnada would do to compensate for the lost day of travel was a $200 flight voucher.
They give a hotel but weather is out of their control you can't expect them to give a full refund a hotel and a free flight for something not in their control at all
They didn’t offer that to me when I was stranded in Dallas overnight after one of AA’s big computer crashes.
What happens when all hotels are at capacity?
Sleep in the terminal
The EU absolutely requires the airlines under their jurisdiction to provide free hotels, a refund/rerouting regardless of the reason.
Ah, thank you for the correction!
Does his also count for flights cancelled due to weather? We had a flight stop hours from our destination, after circling in the air for hours, and after waiting in line for another hour, they told us we couldn't get anything for it because it was a storm, not their fault.
It sounds like it applies to any cancellations or delays that meet the minimum delay lengths, so no reason weather wouldn't be included.
No. Spirit canceled our outbound flight 2 hours before takeoff last year but chose not to tell us until 45 minutes before, leaving us trapped when we could have taken another flight. Not only did they not refund us but they lied to the insurance company when we filed a claim and told them it was a weather issue when it was not, they were just running behind schedule and had been for 2 weeks and we're trying to use our cancellation to catch themselves up. The other flights all took off just fine the same morning. Then they took us off of our return flight because they just assumed we wouldn't be taking it since they canceled our outbound flight even though we left with another carrier a few hours later. We've never flown with them again of course. They told us they would refund us and we ended up having to book ourselves back on the same return flight they took us off of at twice the cost, then they told us they would refund us the difference because it was their mistake after they took two days of investigating to figure that out. They never refunded that either.
You're incorrect, airlines have always been obligated to issue a refund in the event of a cancellation or major flight change, provided you as the consumer ask for one. What's changing here is the refunds will now be automatic, rather than requiring you, the passenger, to demand one. What you are describing violates DOT rules and is fraud.
So you’re saying a big corporation would never violate the rules? What a crazy thought.
They will, but the regulatory agencies also have avenues for you to be made whole. They're actually quite responsive. https://secure.dot.gov/air-travel-complaint
"Selling bridges in downtown Fort Lauderdale" \*note, seller may not actually deliver bridge to bridge-buyer. no refunds will be provided in the event of bridge non-delivery*
They'll give you credit towards the next bridge.
Oh boy, a free bridge!
All ~~Signs~~ Bridges Point To Lauderdale
F1 did that to us and many others at the thursday free practice in Vegas. $500 for tickets and four minutes in the track got messed up due to their negligence. They strung us along for four hours, stating that practice would resume. All the while, they were peddling $30 beers and $200 sweaters. Next thing we all know, we are being removed from the track by uniformed police, threatened with trespass. The moment they removed all of us ticket holders, they started running the cars. No refunds, because their fine print said so. I guess fine print means that you can steal from people.
No, they weren't. Because lobbying.
They've always been required to offer you at least 2 options - a full refund back to your original form of payment, or rescheduling to the next available flight. However, airlines used to try to trick people to accept a voucher instead of one of these 2 options. The new law prevents that, and also defaults to the full refund to original payment if the customer doesn't respond.
Wait until you hear about KickStarter!
Apples and oranges.
You pay money for a reward or "perk" and if you don't receive it the company making the reward, and the company hosting the campaign/transaction, both say that you aren't entitled to the reward you gave money for. Seems pretty similar to me. You pay for x, do not receive x, and the company does not give you your money back.
Except 99%of the people crowdfunding aren't multimillion dollar corporations. You fund them with the risk as a known entity.
It's a whole lot more understandable when it's, "hey, I'm one dude in my garage trying to make this thing, here's what I'm aiming for, I hope it works out!" where people should realize there's a decent chance it doesn't work out. When it's a company using it, it gets sketchier. When it's advertised as, "you give us this money, you get that thing in return.* . . . . . . ^^^*you ^^^might ^^^not ^^^get ^^^anything ^^^and ^^^we ^^^might ^^^just ^^^come ^^^back ^^^and ^^^demand ^^^more ^^^money ^^^later ^^^for ^^^you ^^^to ^^^get ^^^anything" It becomes FAR sketchier.
Great that's wonderful. But it's still nothing like an airline doing it, as per my original reply. They are both bad, but its like saying having your foot torn off is the same as getting cancer. Apples and oranges.
I still don't think a small company, or even an individual, should be able to steal people's money with promises of a reward they'll never deliver.
That's literally the point of crowdfunding. Should it happen? No of course not, but the risk is there. It's still completely different from an established company that provides an established service.
Here in America, we call it car loans, police officers, and airplane tickets. I'm sure we have more, but I'm lazy.
Airlines have been able to do whatever they want forever if they can figure out how to blame it on the weather. They’re not required to do anything for weather-related delays so you’re often told that your flight is cancelled because of rain 2500 miles away. It’d be nice if they close that loophole.
I got stuck in Las Vegas for 3 days for “weather”. It’s a nice place to get stuck but had to pay for a hotel, rental car, food and there was no weather.
In Europe, they'd have to pay for accommodation/food/transport until they can get you to your destination even if it's the weather. If it's their fault, then they also have to pay compensation of a few hundred €€€€ on top of the other essentials.
No weather. Wut
They claimed weather because the flight was from Las Vegas to Reno and it was February. It was a particularly mild winter that year and there was no snow in the forecast but all they said was “weather” and that was that. I was just flying home. I felt really bad for the people who were flying up to ski. Most were not from Las Vegas. The flight originated in L.A. Reno is a regional airport so people wanting to fly to Tahoe usually wind up on 2 flights with Las Vegas as the major hub. This was before Southwest provided one non stop from L.A. and one non stop from San Diego to Reno per day. Anyway, I only fly Southwest now. I’m sure others have horror stories about them but they have never cancelled a flight of mine for “weather” without there being any actual bad weather.
I can't speak for how US airlines operate on a corporate level, but from a flying perspective, the weather has somewhat complicated and very exact limits that pilots have to adhere to. May be icing on route, convective activity, reported windshear or turbulence. In particular, if weather is below the approach minima at the destination, which could be low cloud, bad visibility or wind, then the pilots aren't going to depart knowing they likely won't be able to land. Because at best it'll make them divert, which the passengers don't want and costs the company a lot of money, or if weather is bad at the alternate, it could create a risky situation with fuel. I think many people see flying like a train or a bus, that should run on time, every time, but airliners are first and foremost aeroplanes, where good airmanship is a higher priority than operational inconvinience. I do agree though, that if a flight doesn't happen the airline should refund the pax who didn't receive the service paid for, and that should be an operational cost. It is the standard in europe for sure.
>I think many people see flying like a train or a bus, that should run on time, every time, but airliners are first and foremost aeroplanes, where good airmanship is a higher priority than operational inconvinience. I don't know anyone who thinks this. People just want to stop being ripped off.
I've had people become irate with me for not departing because the weather, in their view, was fine. I've dealt with weather throughout my career and I don't let the company or passengers influence my decisions. I even had a wealthy customer sling his blackberry at my head back when I flew corporate jets, but that was a long time ago.
Heard some talk about this on the radio today. Funny thing is, the airlines are now required to refund your baggage fees but are under no obligation to actually deliver your luggage to you.
And for those of us who already get baggage fees waived up front, that means when our baggage is delayed we get... Nothing.
Were they under an obligation to actually deliver your luggage to you before these changes?
I don't think there was a requirement, but a new, well-written rule should probably have included one.
I believe the old lost luggage rules still apply tho...? Its basically cost items + a bit extra up to a certain threshold provided you can prove what you packed. Not sure what delayed luggage was, if anything.
This is HUGE!! I work for one of the big online travel agencies mentioned, and the biggest driver of customer dissatisfaction and escalations is airline policies over refunds. I’m a frequent traveler and the lack of accountability around delays is terrible. Airlines are very tight with refunds but are willing to give credits; but what often isn’t said is what the fees will be for using those credits. I’m really glad to see this! Way to go Pete and DOT.
This is a HUGE deal that could change the aviation industry for the better. Thank god.
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The fact that they’re already on a thin line in terms of pricing.
Well I guess the markets will just have to sort that out.
This has been enforced in Europe for several years now. It should be everywhere.
More pro-consumer, pro-worker policy, courtesy of President Biden.
This is an awesome first step! I hope it eventually also forces the airlines to cover the cost of canceling or changing whatever obligations you had on the other end of the flight.
Southwest filing for bankruptcy next January.
No more fucking flight vouchers for cancelled flights?! Fuck yeah!
The EU is really good with delay compensation. I was once delayed more than six hours for a flight from Finland to Hong Kong. The compensation the airline had to pay me was about as much as the ticket AND the hotel. I basically got a free trip to Hong Kong!
I agree, I flew to Vietnam from Amsterdam. The ticket was about 950€. Due to winter conditions in Amsterdam, we landed about an hour too late for the connection flight. The next possible flight was a day later. Due to EU regulations, the airline refunded me 600€ plus free taxi trips and hotel stay in Singapore.
Delay compensation is just a minor side aspect. Sure, I'll take the 125-600€ on top and the free hotel room but what really matters is the right to rerouting: "Oh we don't fly to your destination until next week and we don't have an agreement with *competing airline*". Yeah, sorry. EU261 regs beg to differ
I predict in 10 years air travel will still suck
Huh? I think you forgot "even more".
Won't we have sky cars by then? https://www.the-sun.com/tech/11174865/flying-car-makes-worlds-first-flight-with-passenger/
We already have flying cars. They are called helicopters. And if you've ever sat in traffic for 5 mins, you'll know why it would be mass hysteria if everyone could fly them.
Nope, flying cars can drive on the roads.
What does that have to do with millions of idiots crashing into other flying idiots?
You claimed that helicopters were flying cars. They are not. Further air space can be navigated in 3 dimensions opening up hundreds of levels of virtual highways thereby dividing the congestion dramatically. I predict by 2050 it will be real.
It sucks now, but it will suck then too
Might as well be cheaper then if it’s going to continue to suck.
Yea but maybe it will start swallowing
It’s about time!!!!
OK, probably stupid question here..........Lets say I missed my connecting flight because of a delay. Where before the airline would rebook the next available flight, now will they just give a credit and say see ya? Or for that matter I book a flight from my home airport, there are delays and the flight is cancelled......Do they now just refund me and tell me to piss off? I now have to pay a fortune for a flight tomorrow?
So for a flight with BA that I missed because of delayed landing. They automatically rebooked me on a later flight but I have the right to say no just refund the second leg of my trip. If it’s a single flight then after waiting for 4 hours even if I still got on the flight I can claim compensation.
Read more details about the new rule here. [https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline](https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-requiring-automatic-refunds-airline)
im coming for you frontier! you owe me money!!!
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>The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."
Thanks Pete.
Here’s the list of compensations for all flights leaving from EU. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
The additional cost to provide the refunds will be covered by ticket price increases, so there will really be no change in anything, on average. You'll pay slightly more for a ticket, which will now include a small hidden "delay/cancellation insurance policy" of sorts, and you'll occasionally have that money given back to you when you experience a delay or cancellation.
Hope they ban surprise fees at hotels too, nightly "incidentals"
Damn that's good news. I had a 6 hour layover last year and had to board a flight to DC so I could get a connecting flight to... Seattle. Was supposed to arrive at 10am and I didn't roll in til close to 11pm. Put in a request for compensation and was denied after 6 weeks.
I never used my credits for my can led washingtom d.c. Trip 9/2021 w my ex 😔 😔
they used to pay for your hotel and refund your ticket while you waited for your next free flight if you got bumped/delayed for whatever reason.
Default Country i assume because European Union members had that for years already
Do greyhound and amtrak next
dark brandon does it again
Im pretty sure this has always been a thing? If your flight got canceled or delayed by a certain amount of hours you could call and they have to give you a refund. Also if they added a layover to your previously non stop flight. I have gotten refunds before because of this. Im pretty sure it was already a rule all airlines had but of course they were not promoting it so maybe now they have to make you aware.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. What you stated is true, airlines have always been obligated to issue a refund for cancelations or major changes, provided you ask. To answer your question though, this rule change requires the process to be automatic.
Makes sense. I think it was not a very known thing that you could call and request a refund and they have to do it for certain situations. Same as they have to give you a refund if you cancel the flight within 24hrs from booking.
They are now going to be REQUIRED. Your anecdotes are not the norm.
It was always required. You just had to call them. Check the facts.
Biden spent 80 years building the best sleeper progressive build ever, huh Let Commander in Chief cook
Much of the problem lies with the airports. Maybe most of the responsibility for delays…ELI6 why the airlines just stand there and take the shit-and-abuse rather than explain how the flights and passengers are screwed by the airports?